For ages, those who were too poverty-stricken to pay judgments and other outstanding debts were locked up, and forced to work it off under prison labor, along with the cost of incarceration.
But it fell out of fashion, and became an unlawful and unconstitutional form of punishment in the U.S. back in the 1830s, as well as in most other countries. The 14th Amendment strengthened equal protection under law, that is until recent decades. With new found economic pressures and plenty of new fines and offenses, debtors’ prisons are back.
And it is a harsh reality for thousands of struggling Americans. Many more could join them if they aren’t careful.
CBS Money Watch carried another in depth report on the growing trend of debtors’ prisons, a de facto result of thousands of Americans who are too poor to pay for heavy fines levied by private institutions contracted by municipal governments, or otherwise unable to keep up with the multiple demands of violations for traffic and other offenses:
For teenager Kevin Thompson, a traffic ticket ended up costing him not only his driver’s license, but also his freedom.
In his account of the experience, Thompson says he was ordered to pay $810 in fines by Georgia’s DeKalb Recorders Court, an amount that was out of reach for the low-income auto shop and tow truck worker. Instead of working with Thompson to find another way to pay, such as through community service, the court handed off Thompson to a for-profit probation company called Judicial Correction Services (JCS). JCS told Thompson he had 30 days to pay the fine, but also gave him erroneous legal information, such as overestimating the cost of a public defender.
Thompson notes that the court later took up a JCS officer’s recommendation to incarcerate him, resulting in a five-day stint in jail for failing to pay the fine.
Thompson, whose case was represented by the American Civil Liberties Union, is just one of the poor Americans ending up in a modern-day version of the debtors’ prison, an antiquated punishment that was eliminated by the U.S. in the 1830s.
The problem is exacerbated by the motive of private profit, and the collusion between public office and private contractors:
A rash of new cases are coming to light as municipal courts increasingly outsource probation to for-profit companies like JCS, which make their money by tacking on their own fees to traffic violations. They typically don’t charge the courts or municipalities for their services.
“Since 2009, we have been hearing increasing reports that people are being jailed for a failure to pay fines and fees,” Nusrat Choudhury, staff attorney in the ACLU Racial Justice Program, told CBS MoneyWatch. “We’ve observed that for-profit corrections companies are proliferating. They offer what appears to be a win-win to local governments because they offer to generate revenue from people who are too poor to pay on probation day.”
Thousands of courts across the country are using private companies to deal with individuals sentenced to probation and collect hundreds of millions of dollars in the process.
Added fees and monthly surcharges for probation periods create a “snowballing” effect where costs can quickly pile up into unmanageable sums of debt, making often petty infractions a road to endless entanglement with the criminal justice system, tacked with significant costs.
In the ACLU’s view, the relationship between municipalities and for-profit probation companies creates a financial incentive to generate profits at the expense of probationers’ rights.
“The profit incentive pushes the private probation companies away from identifying indigent people,” Choudhury said. “Because indigent people must by law have their fines waived, that cuts into company profit. The profit motive is distorting the proper functioning of the system.”
As SHTF previously reported, the specter of debtors’ prisons is a growing problem– officially outlawed in the 1830s in the United States, but back in unofficial form through a series of public-private criminal justice processes that can involve confusing fees and extra hoops to jump through.
In many states, simple traffic violations, failure to maintain auto insurance, as well as DUI, carry extra penalties known as “surcharges” paid to private collection agencies that can dwarf the amounts already demanded by courts for the initial offense.
For others, failure to pay certain fees or courses as part of a probationary agreement can trigger additional penalties. While the individuals caught up in this system may well be guilty of certain offenses, the punishment is often excessive, particularly when further penalties are added for failure or inability to keep up with payments and stiff fines.
The general economic woes for Americans in search of well-paying jobs and decent opportunities is certainly not helping matters, either.
Part of the problem is blamed on probation officers ‘not trained in Constitutional rights’ who apparently made routine threats to those caught up in the system:
The Human Rights Watch report noted that for-profit probation companies, while unable to send people to jail, “routinely threatened to have them jailed for failing to make payments or for falling into arrears.” The companies end up with “a great deal of coercive power,” it added.
Bail costs alone have proved a barrier too difficult for many to overcome, with hundreds of thousands stuck in jails awaiting trial or assistance with bail money, never mind what their crime may be:
It’s not only failure to pay traffic tickets that are landing Americans in jail. Across the country, there are at any moment 730,000 people who are locked up in a local jail because they’re too poor to post bail, according to a report issued last month by the nonprofit Vera Institute of Justice.
The numbers are as astounding as the United States prison population itself, which makes up a full quarter of the entire global prison population. Those prisoners, too, often have additional debts and penalties added onto their sentences, which they are able to “work off” for pennies a day while laboring for some of the world’s largest multinational corporations (who would profit from American prison labor even above cheap offshore labor).
Of course, many of those debts are really impossible to pay off, so it remains a weight on those who have served their time, however reformed.
The collusion and cross-interests of public-private partnerships absolutely impede on the rights of individuals, including those who are guilty of their crimes, but unfairly/excessively punished, or punished by a para-government system that amounts to corporatism – better known but less understood as “fascism.”
A commenter named “THEHardTarget” said it well:
Folks, this is fascism; when there is very little demarcation between government and business. When corporations actually direct what the government does by first, buying it, then taking over government’s services for profit and then becoming it. Imagine what would have happened if we had privatized social security when Bush wanted to do it. A lot of people’s only source of retirement would have gone down in flames in 2008.
Clowns to the left of me,
Jokers to the right,
Here I am, stuck in the middle with you….
That very, very true. clowns left, jokers right.
Damn what do we do????
I have an idea, LOCK AND LOAD!!!!!!!
That’s what happens when a system is on it’s last legs. Eventually they do that enough and people get the idea that they are the boiling frog in the pot and they, SNAP !
It happened in Egypt and started the revolution Arab Spring. It took just one person to light the fuse. It’ll happen here as well, just a matter of time.
The Govt in collusion with the Central Banks have made us all but the upper 1% poor.
What’s next, burning at the stake?
“along with the cost of incarceration”
I wish there was a way to do this to today’s crooks. It would save the taxpayers millions if the crooks had to pay
And regulated by the EPA.
OF COURSE, in the mean time, thousands of people had their booking information added to the database, including finger prints, digital photos (for future retinal scanning) and often times, their DNA is taken.
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. To add more of us to their database.
“What’s next, burning at the stake?” –OutWest–
That all depends. If it’s government tyrants you’re talking about burning….I’m down for that.
“Collusion” between public officials and private enterprises– yes, indeed! That’s what happened to my SUV!
I had just gotten NEW tags (for 2 years), all new tires, and other work done on my truck…went out of town, like I have on numerous occasions, leaving my truck behind, at a place where there is NO parking restrictions, and came back to a missing truck!
Took me 2 weeks, calling the cops over and over to find out what happened to my vehicle. By the time I found out what happened to it (cops had it towed…even though it was a free parking zone), the towing company had confiscated it. He said after a certain length of time, they don’t have to give it back! He knew I wanted it back but said it had been sent to salvage company… yeah, right! HE STOLE MY VEHICLE!!!
I lost my Bronco XLT because they ran me around over the requirements to pick it up, until I couldn’t afford to pay the tow fees.
A couple of months later, a guy who worked at that tow yard was driving it.
30 days or 30 dollars, Your Honor I’ll take the 30 dollars. 50 million people on Government handout and were talking about debtors prison. Give me a break. Trekker Out.
What, when you could be in the pokey with me??? Bwahahhahahha.
If you bothered to find out actual facts, it’s the working poor who get stuck paying most of a state’s taxes, fees and fines. If they can’t pay, they go to jail–because the state made a deal to privatize prisons. The deal always includes a promise to make sure the prison is 90% full of prisoners or the state has to pony up money.
I watched a CSPAN talk that showed the bottom 20% of our population actually pays to run local governments–not the rich at all. The rich not only pay less, they have the money to avoid jail completely. Take a look at the Hilton heir who threw a tantrum for an entire plane ride while threatening passengers and crew. He got off with probation. If it was one of us, we would have been arrested the moment the plane landed.
No, you and me, we would have been arrested after being tasered at least twice, beaten a few times, smothered, maybe resuscitated, then thrown in jail, shipped to Gitmo, blindfolded, starved, waterboarded, and then charged money for the pleasure.
That’s right, Sharon… these people need to visit Chris Hedges’ website. There was a very long article about this very subject– very upsetting!
Now days, prisoners PAY for their “room and board”, all medical fees, decent food (what little they can get), clothes, etc. and yet they make only a little over $1.00 per hour! How can this be, you ask? Because the prisons have been taken over by the corporations, like everything else!
IF they get out of prison, they are responsible for their “debt” to the prison and if they can’t pay it off, they have to go back to prison!
Furthermore, Chris Hedges says we are ALL headed in the same direction, that the slave labor in prisons is what they want for us as well– it is our future! If you care anything for your kids/own welfare, it behooves you to read that article at his website– extremely upsetting!
Actually, I had it wrong– prisoners don’t get $1.00 per hour, they get $1.28 per day!!! (for 8 hours work!) and yet, envelopes are about $7.00 per box, and other necessities are skyrocketing in cost…
they often have to take out loans to get the basic necessities to live and when they get out of prison, if they cannot pay back the thousands of dollars they owe the prison, they have to go back to prison!
Plus, its like the sweatshops overseas, where prisoners are doing the work for corporations, instead of us– they got a lot of the jobs! (for various major corporations in the country– like Microsoft, proctor and gamble, or whatever).
Chris Hedges: The Prison State of America – Chris Hedges – …
Dec 28, 2014 … Prisons employ and exploit the ideal worker. Prisoners do not receive benefits or pensions. They are not paid overtime. They are forbidden
If they cant pay, maybe they shouldn’t commit the crime in the first place.
I like your train of thought!!
My thoughts exactly. Break out those tools guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment and let those bastards eat lead!
I love that… lets light them on fire. When you have the balls to actually do it let me know. Until then…sit down and shut up.
Here’s a tip: Don’t get caught speeding, driving drunk, or other stupid stunts behind the wheel. I’ve been driving for 45 years and have logged, both personally and professionally, well over 600,000 miles. In that time I have had only 3 moving violations and 4 parking tickets-period. And unless you’re rich enough to get a good attorney, or a dashcam that proves you’re innocent, never go to court because you’ll loose, and that will cost you a lot more money than traffic school and the fine.
Not necessarily so Gregory8….
I’m of the opinion that you should fight EVERY ticket. If everyone would do that, the courts would soon be so bogged down that they couldn’t process them.
In the first place, the whole idea of traffic fines is not about public safety. It’s about revenue enhancement.
Start making it cost them more for the process than they can take in, and we will be well on our way to ending this nonsense.
I’ve had several tickets over the years that I have fought. And I was successful in getting a good percentage of them dismissed. Part of it is learning how to work the system so that you can get a hearing date that is inconvenient or impossible for the officer to make. No officer=no witness=case dismissed.
Simply not true. Every time I contested a ticket I won. Once using trial by declaration where it is done by mail. Same with parking tickets where the meter was off in time keeping. The fines though do border on legalized theft. What was once a twenty five dollar fine will now cost four hundred bucks or more. All because the various govts. have spent themselves into poverty but still must pay the whopping pensions.
eppe kinda goes with what I just said. LOL
LOL. Well there you have it. Millions of Americans and a whole lot of non-Americans also known as illegal Aliens are going to jail for not paying traffic fines. Not that the vast majority of them have failed to complete some type of payment program or some type of work program. Nope they are just decent non law abiding souls who just need a break from the tyrannical “man”.
Sorry I am just in a mood that does not suffer stupid today.
Did you read that you constitutional sheriffs? You highway patrol officers? You metro police? Upholding your oath are you? Who is the victim of so called traffic offenders? The state cannot be a victim unless it costs the taxpayers money. Without a victim, there cannot be a crime. Are you enforcers of the law excused from responsibility because you represent the state? So which is it, your oath or sucking the states cock to extort money from your employers (the people)? Are you out to extract revenue or do the right thing? There is no gray area here. Are you a roid pumped psyco pig fuck or are you really honoring your oath as a peace officer? If you are the former you had better have someplace to hide or your ass is gonna be in a whole new world of shit when tshtf assholes!
The biggest gang on the block is the pigs. The real biggest gang is the people that have had enough of the second biggest gang motherfuckers!
Don’t know if they still print this info on the tickets these days but Has anyone ever looked on the backside of a traffic ticket and seen where the money is allocated to. I did years back for a speeding ticket I got when I was traveling
1) $125.00 goes to the police pension fund
2) $15.00 to the courts
3) And the last $10.00 went to some “Whore For Hire ” named Big Bertha !!!
Check into it…It’s justa Big Ole Fucking no matter where you turn !!!
And we still gotta pay for all those doughnuts !!!
I’m always heavily armed and now always pissed off. Try to arrest me or intimidate me.
FuckingPissed, You have the right to express yourself. Anything you say can and will be used at the sole discrepency of the public. Should you actually know your rights you are free to exercise them at any time. Should you feel as though your rights have been violated you can take your case before a court of law. You have the right to present yourself instead of being re presented by a lawyer. If indeed your rights have been violated the officer who detained you can and will be held personally responsible for his/her actions. You have the right to personally sue such officer/officers for damages incurred. Dou you understand your rights that I have explained Mr. fuckingpissed?
Don’t give a fuck about the so called law here anymore. Do you understand that?
Well then Mr. FuckingPissed, Welcome to the rogue nation my man. Rogue govt. = rogue people. The few, the rebellious, the ROGUE!!
When people say things like the BS that you say, it makes me think they are baiting people. I suspect you are a federal agent trying to bait people into anti government actions or comments so the government can go after them. We all know the Obama G men comb the prepper web sites looking for subversive anti government types.
Either that or you are truly a dipsh!t.
I’ll go with the dipshit option.
I’d take you and johnny with my bare hands pussyboy bradley.
Real tough guy … One hand on the key board and one hand on your pecker… Loser!
Oh dear, you really are a dipshit aren’t you FuckingPissed. Must be a barrel full of fun being around you Mr Heart Attack.
I second that. Either that or he is a f-ing tard.
Prison State America: Inmates becoming corporate slaves in for …
8 min – Jan 14, 2015 – Uploaded by RT America
For-profit prisons have created a “neo-slavery” in the US, according to award- winning journalist
FP, I’m right there with you. No one is taking me alive, either.
True Braveheart. You’re a good dude. Lots of pigs on here nowadays. I mean what I say about this fucked up country and the people running it and those enabling them to do so. I’m not going to be the only one that is dead either. Peace brother cause I’m outta this place. It smells now.
Let the door slam your ass on the way out Mr angry.
Yah no one is ticketing me alive either. 😮
Finally….” The one and only Eppe ” has returned !!!
3rd, thanks, but I am no different from all the great posters here at the plan. We all have a role to play in life, though we may not know what to do till later. We have no idea of what we will accomplish in life???
I do not post much, but read daily.
See new posters all the time.
Go back and read the archives, you will learn much…
And ask anything, many will reply.
Have a blessed evening…
This is why we laugh when pigs get shot. Take a look at this hysterical little bitch. Butthurt over a fucking parking spot. What a bunch of fucking losers.
Speak for yourself chickenshit.
Acid=Loser calling others losers!
If you can’t do the time Don’t Do The Crime don’t do it don’t do it!!!!
Or do not get caught!;-}
No doubt reb; What gets me is how it’s some sort of “SLAVE LABOR” when it cost’s us 35000+ a year to keep/hold, take care of these people? when you make them work on the road side. If you ask me we should bring back the chain gangs!!! “WHAT WE HAVE HERE,IS A FAILURE TO COMUNICATE”!!!!
How about getting rid of dumb laws/the cop/court/prison cartels,makes more sense to me!
That is not the quote. The quote is “what we have here is failure to communicate”.
You would be much better off comitting white collar crimes.
Yeah, the more money you steal, the less likely that you’ll end up in prison for it.
Shoplifting $200 or less…..99.99% end up in jail
Lifting hundreds of billions in big bank scams….100% jail free.
Remember the white man attacked on the train in St. Louis in the video from a few days ago?
The victim has stated that he was upset over other people on the train laughing at him and not offering to help. Many on the internet have mocked his lack of will to fight back. He responded: “Come on! I was sucker punched!”
THERE IS NO SUCH FUCKING THING AS A SUCKER PUNCH
He failed to have situational awareness. The second one of the “home boys” starts to “rap” to me, you see my hand inside my messenger bag. Cause I don’t like repeat offenders, I like dead offenders. Think I look like a metrosexual in my good messenger bag and stylish business suit? Try me. Iron fist in a velvet glove bitch.
Now I don’t need to tell you people this but his expectation of help from other people deserves to be mocked and ridiculed.
There is no security, what you don’t take care of yourself.
A guy in NYC took that approach a few years back.
Ended up not working out so well for him.
He was named Bernhard Goetz if you want to look it up on the internet.
The truth is you have to be attacked before you can defend yourself, and you had better be visibly -preferably somewhat seriously- injured in that attack as well if you want to do it without paying a rather serious penalty.
I already knew the Goetz story. I really don’t fucking care. I should only hope some liberals’ and jury members’ daughters get raped. Then let then condemn Charles Bronson. Fucking shit sniffing liberal cunts.
Whoever strikes first with repetition almost always wins the fight. No, I’m not going to give them a freebie. Yes, if you pull it out you use that motherfucker without hesitation and mercy on unarmed people.
“He should have armed himself.” – Clint Eastwood
Bullshit Acidetch, There is such a thing as a sucker punch! If I were to be a stranger walking toward you on the sidewalk and as I was passing I out of the blue punched you in the mouth that would be a sucker punch. No warning, no odd behavior, no clue that I was going to do it. Now the niglet in that video was warning the puss that he was going to punch him that was obvious. But the puss is a retarded metro lib stupid fuck and decided to just duck and hope for the best. I am no bigger than that guy and not any bad ass but I know I could have fucked all 3 of those punks up with minimal damage to myself. America, land of the gutless, home of the slave…
I’m an old woman and I assure you, that first punk would’ve been on the floor holding the place where his nuts used to be…I may have gotten the shit beat out of me anyway, but there would be one punk who might think twice next time he attacked an old lady…especially if she looked like ME.
Acid, while I agree the guy should have stood his ground and fought back, I don’t believe he deserves to be mocked. the other passengers watching and not helping is only one example of how far this country has fallen. There was no legitimate basis for the attack. If that turd had attacked me, I would have done a “Michael Brown” on him and to hell with any consequences.
Gear review: Merrell Moab Mid Ventilator boots
Got my new hyperventilating summer hiking boots today and took them outside. This is my first buy from Merrell and they are extremely comfortable and breathable right out of the box. It takes 50 miles to break in synthetic boots and 100 miles for leather.
I use two pairs of hiking boots: dry weather and wet weather. Both are uninsulated, ankle height, and with laces. For summer I like fabric boots that are not waterproof, highly ventilating, and bound with very thin leather strips. The waterproof membrane or shell inhibits ventilation when hiking 15 miles on hot summer days. Instead, I just spray Penguin waterproofing spray on them since the spray doesn’t interfere much with breathability. For winter or in the rain I like a combination rubber bottom/leather upper, waterproof, and uninsulated. This way I can use them in summer rain or in winter. I just use multiple wool sock layers for the heat factor I want. When mountain climbing in the deep snow I use rubber Wellington boots. I might be the only one who does that but it works well for me. For the motorcycle, I use calf high leather square toed boots with no laces. Mine have a special scuff-proof panel on the toes for the gear shift. My bike DOES have a clutch unlike modern mangina push button transmission bikes. Bitches.
Bonus: I bought a pair of Merrell merino wool socks along with the boots. They are very good quality.
Wow,you use a clutch,how many gears?!I had a Hercules 250 dirt bike with a seven speed transmission,ass kicking German engineering!There was nothing a flick of the throttle or a flick of the gears this bike wouldn’t climb!The only auto scoot I ever tried was a old Rokon dirt bike,was a bit weird to say the least.
Modern bikes have a push button shifter, throttle, and one brake pedal.
Mine is 5 speed manual 650cc.
Acid, I might get a pair of those Merrels myself. good choice on the merino wool socks. those are the only socks I wear year-round and they last longer than the other types.
Hello AE. Think you’ll get your money’s worth out of your new Merrell boots. Be careful though if stepping on wet rocks that have any type of algae or seaweed growing on them, they’re as slippery as ice.
Me and the wife got stopped the other day the cop was walking up to a stopped car and just saw me not wearing a seatbelt we had just pulled out of habib store he said pull over. We stopped and after our information checked out he wrote us a $40 ticket. Let me tell you I’m not mad I was wrong according to law. I’m not pissed off about it at all. We went and paid it right away. Look if you go to prison over $40 your just a total dumb ass. Now I hate the cops like everyone else but the law is the law and it’s just a fine who cares. If you can’t afford a ticket then pay attention to what your doing. It’s just that simple. People drive like assholes and speed all the time. I never speed I haven’t got a ticket in like 10 years. I guess it’ was time for a ticket the cop was a typical douche but he didn’t harass me. The best way to hurt folks is in their wallet. I think that’s reasonable $40.
READ a book or two on the so called justice system in this country
here’s a suggestion
Worse Than Slavery by Oshinsky
or watch the movie CONSPIRACY starring Kevin Branagh
murdering Jews was legal too
Jesus Christ Ass, You think a seatbelt ticket is ok? Who was the victim of this crime that you had to reimburse? Where in the constitution does it say you must pay for victimless bullshit that is a choice of a free man to make? Do you need mommy to change your diapers and tell you what is safe too? That is just fuckin pathetic that you are ok with your tyranny and I thought you were a lot smarter than that! 10 demerit points for that post man.
Genius,some folks need personal decisions made for em with penalties if they then don’t comply,why,beats the fuck out of me!
Ha ha ha, I suppose yer right WC. Good to see you my friend! When are you going to get yer ass back to the USA? It’s going to be lonely on my deck with all those goldfish crackers 🙂
Warchild and Genius, I just returned from GA and restocked on goldfish while there. If I run out of those, I’m one mean SOB.
in order for a law to be broken there must be a victim, not sure who or what is/was the victim perhaps it was the cop, poor feller just couldnt stand it. what your talking about is color-of-law, no victim no crime see constitution, nahh forget it just pay the protection money
Last time I got called up for jury duty, I told them that if they selected me for a jury and it was a criminal trial, they had best make sure they could demonstrate that there was a “victim” involved somewhere. I told them that if the case they put me on involved someone arrested for something like prostitution or drug use, I would vote “not guilty” since there was no victim.
People need to learn the concept of “jury nullification”.
Funny thing….I haven’t been summoned for jury duty since.
REVENUE GENERATION, nothing more, just a friggin road tax. That’s good your not mad, maybe youll sleep better at night in your chains. Pay your fine it’s just 40 bucks right?? Then next year it’ll be 50 then 100 and so on. Why the hell should you have to wear your seat belt? Oh ya for your own safety, sorry I forgot? What about my ol 75 Ford with lap belts only, why the fuck do I have to get pulled over all the damn time inside my own truck for some stupid bs revenue scheme. Why? because they cant see the shoulder restraint…”No officer I’m not late for work, by all means take your fucking time 🙂 ” I don’t need gov’t making laws to keep me safe from fallin off my horse and bumping my head…Got news for you..sometimes people just fall off their horse and bump their friggin heads!!!
The amount of compliant sheep is astounding to me….We’re so FUKT
The problem I have with your argument is the premise….. “Look if you go to prison over $40 your just a total dumb ass. Now I hate the cops like everyone else but the law is the law and it’s just a fine who cares.”
The same argument could have been made regarding the colonists and the tax on tea and the stamp act. “Hey…it’s just not that big a deal. It’s not that much. Why make a big deal about it. The law’s the law”. etc, etc.
But the founders of this country saw it for what it was….just one more example of the tyranny of the British Crown.
And they resisted it. Read the history. Before the first shots were fired at Lexington and Concord, the colonists were defying the “law”.
That same spirit needs to return.
Resist. Refuse. Rebel.
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
C. S. Lewis
“Before the first shots were fired at Lexington and Concord, the colonists were defying the “law”.”
That same spirit needs to return WITH A VENGEANCE.
just a recent example
but Ferguson,MO 2nd biggest source of income was the POliCEe DePt
the police weren’t about enforcing the laws and making the community a better place to live
they were about REVENUE
AMuRiKA is gonna turn into a third world shit hole in the blink of an eye
But the negros rioted over bullshit instead of the police theft and extortion of their money. If your going to shoot a cop, make it for a good reason idiot. Armed robbery by cop is a good reason 🙂
DK if you’re out there. I don’t want to hijack this thread, but I posted the following to you in the middle of one of the other threads and I wanted to make sure you see it.
“Hey DK, Don’t know if you’ll see this reply, maybe I’ll repeat this in a future comment.
Check out the story about some dreams and predictions by a pastor (priest?) in Puerto Rico. We are going to be hit on 9-24-2015 at 2a.m. just east of Puerto Rico by an asteroid. It will immediately kill 40 million people, cause major tsunamis, cause a level 12 (yes the richter only goes to 10) on the richter scale. Opening the new madrid, sinking florida, etc.
But the biggest thing to jive with “yourdaddy” comments are it will cause the 8 hour earthquake and will stop the rotation of the earth for 3 days and we will have 3 days of darkness.”
Something to ponder when your thinking niburu, predictions, revelation, rapture, whatever.
No crazier than some of the other predictions out there. And it’s timeline does fit with others.
I can expand on this in the future, if anyone would like.
Sounds like the Puerto Rican Pastor was smoking some Peyote.
PO’d P, that pastor needs to put down the crackpipe. Never trust anyone who sets dates for any type of event. He must have been trying to compete with Dave Hodges.
WERE ALL GOING TO DIE!!! (eventually) 🙂
How Babylon has become an object of horror among the nations! 42″The sea has come up over Babylon; She has been engulfed with its tumultuous waves. 43″Her cities have become an object of horror, A parched land and a desert, A land in which no man lives And through which no son of man passes.…
Is this a future snapshot of America?
Does Jeremiah 51:42 have something to do with 24th of 15?
…sounds like L.A in the very near future
His September timeline is most interesting as it lines up with the culmination of the Shemitah year ending on 9-13-15 (Jonathan Cahn). Something as catastrophic as this happening this September wouldn’t surprise me at all.
My prediction: We’ll never get out of this world alive. Maybe tomoro maybe sept….. Who gives a shit.
Not tryin be a dick, but I’m pretty sure some stupid girl said we were all gonna die from an earthquake couple months ago on youtube, gimme a friggin break. Read your bible, pray, and then put your head between your knees and kiss your ass goodbye, cause we’re all already dead just a matter of when and where and nobody knows. Have a nice day though really
I am highly skeptical in general of people who have what are referred to as “extra-Biblical revelations”….i.e. revelations or prophesies from God aside from what the Bible says. Usually it comes in the form of “God told me this”, or “God showed me in a dream”, etc.,etc.
Look….there’s plenty in the Bible indicating events that are going to come. But there are no specific dates.
In the Old Testament, one of the tests of the authenticity of a prophet was that he had to be 100% accurate. If they weren’t, the Biblical mandate was to stone them to death.
We can look at current events and see how they match up with what the Bible says. But when I hear people make specific predictions and say that such and such is going to happen on this particular date, I get immediately skeptical.
At one time you could pay the fine or or submit to community service like picking up trash along the highway on weekends. Traffic fines are a scam anyway. $300 for the privilege of not wearing a seat belt?
How do you get beeswax candles blessed by a priest?
You don’t need a priest, any old pedophile will do.
Just bring them to a Mass, and approach him afterwards. Blessing takes a few seconds and most will happily oblige.
Attorneys Non –Positive Law must have contract.
“(a) The controlling rule is that “ absent a knowing and intelligent waiver, no person may be imprisoned for any offense … unless he was represented by counsel at his trial. “ Argersinger, 407 U. S. , at 37. Pp. 5-6.” Alabama v Shelton 535 U. S. 654 .”… when the trial of a misdemeanor starts that no imprisonment may be imposed , even though local law permits it, unless the accused is represented by counsel” Argersinger v Hamlin 407 U. S. 25-40
Thanks Ideas. Keep them coming!
One vote per dollar, do the math slaves.
Maybe I misread the article but 5 days in jail instead of the fine is $162 per day. Which is $6.75 per hour. Understanding of course that jail food sucks, it seems an easy way out. The company sucks, but I learned in childhood that you are supposed to violently attack the first person that “befriends” you, so they will keep you isolated after you get out of medical. That is a cheap way out for the guy.
Rellik,about 20 years back convicted of a non violent/non drug(legalize all drugs) misdemeanour’s,was given option of 2000 fine or 30 days,Warchild did 30 days in county.As there was over crowding wonder what violent criminal was released to make room.They offered at day 15 the option to be on parole for 15 days!I laughed,was middle of winter,said I will do the time!
BWAHAHAHAH did you enjoy the pokey?
Acid,always said if busted for bullshit would not pay fines,was a trespassing/disturbing/drinking in public(how drinking in public if trespassing on unmarked yet private property?!) bullshit charge,we had a party in a abandoned sandpit in winter!I was young,didn’t have bucks for a lawyer and didn’t get a public defender as misdomeaner charge(in theory,no jail time),was a kangaroo court and refused to support the parasites with money,that,and work slow in winter,said fine(pun intended!),put me in county.I basically read a lot of books and played cards,quicker folks go broke supporting these systems,quicker they crash!
In Oregon a felony is more than a year, a misdemeanor is less than a year jail time and an infraction carries no jail time…I think.
No help from anyone, so true. Gotta go workout!
Josey Wales to all of them
Keep the Faith and Learn the Signs….the “underground” exists…
Be Well, Be Prepared, and Have Sisu
Now for your civics lesson on how this works:
It is called “Capias Pro-Fine,”
Say a person gets a ticket for speeding and expired registration. The fine totals $500. They plead guilty but can’t pay all at once so they get on a payment program of $100 a month. They can’t pay that either so they stop paying.
Capias pro fine warrants are issued with a new “warrant fee” on each violation. In my town that is an additional $75 per violation.
So now $150 is added to the original $500 for a new total of $650. Since they failed to make the payments they are no longer eligible for community service.
In my town nobody does the community service anyway because it only pays minimum wage towards the fine.
The person gets arrested on the warrants, sits in jail overnight then sees the judge the next morning who releases the person on a new payment agreement.
A couple of months go by and the violator stops paying or misses a payment, new warrants are issued with the $75 warrant fee on each violation.
The cycle repeats itself over and over.
We call it the “Never ending capias pro-fine.”
In Texas these are fine only offenses, so you don’t get sentenced to jail time for it, but you get arrested, a night in jail, and brought before the judge the next day when you stop paying.
The real problem is; Nobody cares to pay fines anymore. If i were faced with facing a warrant if i don’t pay, or paying my power bill, i would pay the fine and go without electricity. I value my freedom too much.
I call bullshit on this article. I was a paralegal assisting two public defenders earlier in my adult life. I’m a graduate law librarian who has worked in, and read the law, for 30 years.
It isn’t not paying a traffic fine that gets one put in jail. It’s not appearing for one’s court date, known as FTA, failure to appear, for which the judge you stiffed issues an arrest warrant. You can go to jail for civil contempt. Refusing to make payment arrangements with the Court, or being such a dumbass as to get your legal advice from some corporate hyena, that gets you in jail.
The public defender exists to serve the poor. If you think you can do better on your own good fucking luck.
In particular, I call bullshit on “private corporations being able to FINE people,” a criminal sanction. They might impose interest on an unpaid debt but only a court has the authority to impose criminal sanctions.
Finally, prison almost always is for felonies, a period of incarceration for a year or longer. Jail is for pre-trial detention or post-conviction incarceration for up to a year.
If you get a notice from a Court, deal with it in a responsible way.
51% of people in your fucking prison industrial complex are fucking there for victimless crimes. We lock up more fucking people for bullshit crimes than any fucking one else in the civilized world “run by whites”.
I call bullshit on your existence.
Private corporations can’t fine people?
WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK INFLATION IS, YOU FUCKING JERK???
If I get a notice from a court?
I DO NOT CONDESCEND TO PLEA BEFORE COURTS OF CONTRACT
Typical academic. Fucking retard.
@ Vapid Wretch
It pleases me greatly that your pink pantyhose is in a twist. Having a hard day at your burger flipping job are you?
Inflation is from the Federal Reserve System. The infusions of cash created out of thin air, that go first to their favs such as the too-big-to-fail banks and the corporate warmongers such as Lockheed, is what causes inflation. The government is stealing from us. Ron Paul, End the Fed.
Ignore your court notices, internet tough guy. Bubba and Tyrone will have fun wrecking your rectum. I join the rest of society laughing at you.
Acid; We call BS on your existence!
True story, at nineteen a young man was caught walking home from work at 2 am( the cops told him it was thier reason for stopping him and searching him, heaven forbid you walk and don’t own a car in a small town) and they arrest him for possession . Most states its a ticket. The state tells him in court that the state minimum sentence for this crime is 6 months probation and 6 months in caps ( a money making drug court), and a 500 dollar fine. So the kids public defender tries to talk the da into a lighter sentence . The DA says no, that’s the state minimum ! Let’s go to a jury trial. Next court day for the trial the DA doesn’t show up, calls and rescheduled and offered half the sentence on everything . No, jury trial please. After doing this for a year it came down to he got sentenced to the time he severed the night he was arrested and 2 months probation and never went to trial. Not saying the kid should smoke the stuff, but he was 19. His lawyer was disappointed the kid took the offer, he was going for jury nullification . Sometimes it’s better to stand your ground.
The possession was the butt of a joint, forgot that part.
But don’t forget to blindly support the police…remember they have a dangerous job, harassing 19yr old kids walking down the sidewalk, remember they just wanna go home to their families too 🙁 🙁
Where is the dang thumbs up! Yep ! The kid worked on the books since he was 11, was working, had his own apt , trying to save to get a car! How dare he! ( sarc)! (Sarc) how much is that ticket to the police mans ball? Lol!
The way to deal with a corrupt court system and anti constitutional laws is to revolt/secede from said system,that is the responsible way to deal with tyrants.
sic semper tyranny
Yes, and it used to hold some meaning. Now it’s just a catch phrase. It was shouted by John Wilkes Booth after popping Abe Lincoln in the back of the head. It had meaning then. I wish sometimes that the south had won the war and had started their own country under God. The war however was just a small play on a small stage in the grander scheme of worldly things
I can see this debtor’s prison issue gaining legs. Perhaps they’ll take decommissioned battle ships and flat tops, anchor them off our coasts and imprison the debtors out there. They’ll just use this for control, as an excuse to force you to submit. Keep your eyes on the horizon and your nose to the wind people.
Actually…the phrase is Sic Semper Tyrannis…..”Thus always to tyrants”
Aside from John Wilkes Booth proclaiming it when he shot Lincoln, it is the official motto for the Commonwealth of Virginia and appears on their State Seal.
I like the phrase. One day, perhaps it will be quoted more often as we throw off the current batch of tyrants.
Here is the problem, sometimes people smoke pot or drink etc. or do something minor that they get the book thrown at them, while FUCKING ILLEGALS GET AWAY FOR FREE, PAY NOTHING, USE FAKE NAMES ,NO PROBLEM, DO WHATEVER THEY WANT NO FINES FEES, NOT THROWN IN JAIL OR DEPROTED FOR LYING GIVING FALSE INFORMATION, BUT ME AND YOU, WE ARE THE ENEMY. UNLESS WE START TO REALIZE THESE FEDERAL AND STATE PEOPLE ARE THE ENEMIES WE WILL LOSE. You get that dick cop that arrests you like in PENNSYLVANIA who are only out for money.
You get arrested see the judge and then put on probation with drug classes you have to pay ( I didn’t do this) 70 bucks for probation each month for a year. 7 dollars a month to use their internet bullshit just to log in which is required. Then you lose your job and now can’t pay. You get arrested for not paying and more time and more monthly 70 dollar fees or more. They are in the hole, then go to the county jail etc. Then they watch you even more close. America is gone. The judges and police are nothing more than a crime syndicate. They can all go fuck themselves. 100 bucks just for probation is a lot of money for someone making 10 bucks an hour. That’s one example.
We need a revolution to happen there is no other way. Unless we get these judges/police etc out of our way its only going to get worse. There are thousands of laws against us all to keep us under control. We have to rise up peacefully and get these “fines fees, tolls etc and endless money racketeering things abolished. Make one mistake they seize your guns and all your ammo.
Its a running and hiding game anymore, It seems we are becoming more secret and can’t tell anybody anything otherwise here come the profit police to get their fucking money. I know what needs to be done, but cant say it. You do too. Unless we all now lookout for each other and cover each other to stop these people we are slaves and it will just get worse. As the economy gets worse so will they and more laws.
Just be careful who you trust and keep in shape, get your guns in tune and be ready this summer for anything. We must change things. It’s never been like this, its so bad anymore.
“Illegals get away for free”
Absolutely 100% true. We are good friends with a LEO who works in the Columbus Ohio area who was told by the higher ups if an illegal is pulled over do not arrest anymore. Let them go. And here we tax paying Americans are getting fined for not wearing a seat belt. It’s so messed up.
You’ve hit the nail on the head clinthospo.
I have a friend who got arrested for a bogus domestic violence charge. At the time, I told him he needed to plead “not guilty” and do the jury trial. But his attorney encouraged him to take the plea deal. They put him in a “program” for domestic abusers (so now he has a domestic violence conviction on his record). He had to pay so much for each time he went to the class. Then…they screwed up something with his court appearance and he go arrested for a failure to appear, and he had to repeat the course and go through more BS.
I know this guy. He’s not an idiot or a loser. He’s a businessman, and he’s intelligent enough to know how to follow directions. And he was being meticulous about it. But the system screwed him over.
When all of this happened I told him, “Look, this whole thing is a racket. It’s all about money. It’s a “criminal justice industry”. And it is structured so that they do everything they can to keep you in the system. They don’t want you do it right. They want you to screw up, so they have another reason to arrest you and tack more on. And they do everything they can to make sure you fail to dot an “i” or cross a “t” correctly.” They want as many people in “the system” as they can get. Aside from the continual revenue stream, it provides a way for them to maintain surveillance on you and further deprive you of rights.
This is what our “justice” system has become. Just another form of taxation….and a means to further oppress the citizens of this country.
They don’t do this to just the poor. They do it to anyone they can.
And I will say this, most of the time, criminal defense lawyers are just as much a part of it as the state. Their interests are only in getting paid. Real legal representation is a joke. They are just there to get their piece of the action. After you have a hearing your attorney and the prosecutor will likely go play a round of golf together.
I’ve been broke, and gotten a ticket when I was laid off. All you have to do is go to court and plead poverty, or make payments. Which can be as low a $5 a month.
I have no sympathy.
Thea,I to have no sympathy for the corrupt money stealing system and the parasites that work within it,time to end it!
And then you make your payments, and the court clerk screws up and it doesn’t get applied correctly and the next time you get pulled over, you find out that there’s a warrant out on you for failure to pay the fine. So you get arrested, spend the night in jail, get your car impounded. And it doesn’t matter that you have a receipt in your hand, saying that you paid it. Nope. All the cop cares about is that there’s a warrant out for you. And it makes him look good because he got an arrest.
Cops in my town will go around and run the plates on cars in cheap hotel parking lots just looking for warrants on the registered owners. Then they’ll go to the hotel office, find out which room the person is in and arrest them. Hey…I got no problem with that if it’s for serious offenses. But most of the time it’s for a some petty “crime”.
When the cops can’t (or won’t) catch the real criminals, they go after the low hanging fruit.
Just start the war now dammit what the hell are people waiting for. Either do it or stop complaining it is what it is people. We need some laws but these stupid lawmakers write the stupidest laws aimed at keeping $ in the elites pockets. Follow the $ if you want the truth. Greed and power is all the state is interested in. I used to say when people got laid off and businesses closed things will turn around they always do. But this time I don’t think things will ever get better at least in my lifetime. I’ve lived out the best of my years and now only dark days I feel are coming. Laws are written in the middle of the night while we are sleeping. The worst people leading this nation off a cliff. Some say times have changed. I say people have changed and not for the better either. Everyday I see more and more frustrated and irritated people. It’s not hard to see on tv that the gig is up they don’t talk of the layoffs really anymore. But they are happening retailers are closing up this is a big indicator that consumers are tapped out. Any $ they have is to pay the rent. How many times can banks extend credit to folks that are underwater. Seems there is always a new angle to prop up the economy. It won’t be long now IMHO. Get your kicks before the whole shit house goes up in flames.
Everyday we move closer to the boiling point. The signs are there if you know how to read them. Angry, irritated and frustrated people having a lifestyle change. Road rage and the uptick in crime like assaults indicate people are losing it.
Want to see a cross section of where you live. Go down to the tax collector’s office to get your cars tags renewed.
Talk about Wal-Mart. People don’t even take a bath.
They say we preppers are crazy. They should take a good look around themselves and open their eyes.
Six thousand people applying for the same job. Road Rage. Who does the speed limit? No responsibility for their actions. There are people who are given new homes that turn them into a disaster property in a year or two.
Keep prepping. It will get here soon enough.
The jail is so full here, they are having to send them to another county for lock up. And when that other county is full, they continue on down the highway. It’s getting unreal.
burn it all to the ground
this 4th of july should be boycotted.
everyone here should burn a american flag and a copy of the us constitution on video then post it on youtube.
with the title ‘it’s time we burn it all down’
then state why you feel america is no longer america for you and your family.
that should get some folks attention in the zog fedgov if it becomes viral online.
Why burn the flag? Too many have bled and died for the flag and for what it “used” to stand for.
Instead……fly it upside down. That sends a much more powerful message.
I do not hate the flag or the Republic. I hate the people who have destroyed that Republic.
Good call A3.
I have been boycotting the fourth of July for years. I don’t do president’s day, Martin Luther King day, or any of those days honoring people. I don’t do black history month, women’s week or rainbow month.
Each year is worse than the last, so I don’t bother with new years either.
Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas, St. Patty’s Day, Easter…that’s about it for me.
Is there even one month where there is NO holiday?
I would never go cold and would just start buring houses or banks to keep myself warm and if enought people did the same thing then their cocerns would soon be addressed.
Same for handing keys back to the bank but they might find them covered in charcoal when handed back in at the local branch.
Who says we need to play by bankers rules and act like the debt slaves we are.
Mr. Smith, If you can’t afford it don’t buy it. Nobody forced you into signing the papers. That is just another example of our shit society who believes that no one is responsible for any action they take.
Does this being responsible for your actions apply to the Banksters? How about the politicians who continue to screw us over and create the very conditions that cause people to lose their jobs..which is why they can’t afford their house anymore?
Does your “responsibility” thing apply to them?
Because so far….I haven’t heard of a single Wall Street fat get being arrested and tried for the sub-prime crisis.
Or how about Benghazi? Anybody responsible for that?
How about “Fast and Furious”? People died because of that too. Anybody held responsible for that?
How about Lois Lerner and the IRS scandal? Anybody held responsible for that?
How about Hillary’s private email server? Think she’ll be held accountable for that?
Let me tell you something BigB…when SHTF I’m going to tell any bank I owe money to, to take their balance sheet and stuff it up their backside. And that goes for this illegitimate government and their “laws” as well.
Whatever happend to personal responsibility people are so angry that they got screwed overpaying for a house or car. So they burn it when they know bank is coming for it. My father in law was a state constable and he worked for lawyers doing repos and serving summonses and subpoenas. He always had to have his game face on. People will do crazy shit when their world is crumbling and no he didn’t enjoy taking back collateral. It was his job to do it. Some things were never collected due to dealing with dangerous individuals. He bring the paperwork back and some other agent would try who knows if they were successful. Understand this if it is not paid in full it’s not yours. When you have the deed to house or title to car it will not be pulled out from under you.
As long as you keep the taxes on it paid up.
…and satisfy the building code enforcers.
And the EPA.
And the BLM.
use cash pay off your bills avoid any debt!!! a true prepper should owe little to anyone except his family!! If you don’t pay your bills what should be done nothing…. really…. more free loaders who rack up huge bills never having to worry about it why not file for chapter 13, 11 and 7 I’m not so sure jail isn’t the right option its just our system is so corrupt how could you condone it!
Minimum wage was never gonna cut it. The people I know on minimum wage income always have the same struggles paying rent utility’s and keeping a car on the road. I not knocking low paying work but how many years of being below the poverty line before an individual says enough. To get above this it’s gonna take training and education it’s just that simple. Folks keep on settling for less they should be swamping the unemployment office seeking training programs. When I drive by there there is nobody there. People complain there are no jobs I call bullshit . There are lots of jobs people lack skills and motivation to do them. Do you really want to work at dunkin donuts your whole life. You will never have anything making peanuts it’s ok for young people but not grown men and women with children what the hell is wrong with people.
Heres a good clip, mirrors what i feel,
I like the clip. But are you on the right thread? Aloha.
This is nothing new. They have been doing this in the 70’s in Illinois.
All the people putting this down are looking at this is the wrong way.
If everyone said I can’t pay it or put me in jail for this there wouldn’t enough room for them.
They might just have to build more jails, (work for the construction. and jailors.
The most time you might have to spend is 30 days. If you don’t have a job so what 3 hots and a cot, and you state aid money just sets in our account until you get out to use it.
Hang in there folks its going to be a bumpy ride.
Sarge,if all folks went to trial for anything they were charged with the whole system would shut down overnight,of course,then some emergency powers/courts put into play with a “suspension” of constitution!
BB,but as taxpayers we are forced to support that system with monies stolen from us,a good example is the bailouts,I certainly didn’t want to bail out the corrupt banks/auto makers/insurance companies,just rewarded bad behaviour.So,you try and play the game and get screwed in the process due to no fault of your own except playing the game encouraged to,turn in the charcoal keys!
They can’t afford the fines, the insurance, the maintenance, etc. Probably stealing the gas, too. I remember when my family was too poor to drive. We didn’t drive. We walked a lot or took the bus. We were skinnier then.
Best way to fight all this is to do the same exact thing they do. Fill their colleges with meth. Go to their college and university’s where all these elitest have their kids and get their kids hooked on drugs. Let them become tomorrows junkies. Destroy their future by getting their own families tied up in the whole dam system that they created to hurt the poor. Become the very thing that they plan for others. Start your own “agency’s” Place up your own institutions, only they call them gangs. Screw with them as much as they screw with the poor and downtrodden. The next time some young pathetic anglo kid driving his dads beamer comes through the hood, sell him the hardest and strongest drug you have and let him get addicted to it so that his life spirals out of control and he brings his daddy and mommy shame and eventually he ends up DOA in a restroom at a McDonald’s in the so called “bad part of town”. This is what they have been doing to the black and latino and poor white community since the 70’s. They invented crack and let it decimate the people. It’s time we get pay back. Let the NARCOS do what they do, bring it all in and take it straight to the suburbs and the College towns. Let them rot just like they let so many die in the community’s all over the US.
John Oliver from HBO’s “Last Week Tonight” had an episode on this very subject the other week. It’s worth watching.
I pay about $20,000 a year in taxes I don’t ow Uncle Sam a stinkin dime. Pay the stupid ticket and quit bitching. Tickets are cheap if your that poor you got bigger problems folks.
I have not had a ticket in about 10 years. When I got one I immediately paid it just like I would like someone to pay me if they owed me.
Like Ass hat said, “Quit your bitching”
Who do we “owe” for not wearing a seat belt?
I wear one so I wouldn’t know.
The rest of us, that’s who. Just like when you don’t have insurance, or drive hammered. We’re tired of paying for your ‘it’s my right’ crap.
Pay your own way.
One would think the whole pig state jail them system could survive without the fleecing of the American people. They took in 4.5 billion in civil forfeitures from innocent drivers in the past. What is Obama and the feds answer to this thievery? Crickets! Police state run amok. They aren’t hearing the people’s concerns and choose not to. It’s all out war waged on our own countrymen and women. They think they own us and our lives.
This was the sort of crap the turned furguson against the police.
I am sure this comment will be real popular but, what is wrong with paying the fine when you first get it?
I kind of wonder the same thing. A lot of folks screaming about not being able to pay a traffic fine seem to have all the the money they want for nail parlors, liquor, drugs, expensive wheels, cable television, and smart phones.
I’m having a real hard time getting worked up in the slightest about scofflaws and criminals who can’t afford to get caught.
You think this is only happening to “criminals”?
This is how innocent people who have never hurt anyone or anything, end up “criminals”.
My post clearly says ‘scofflaws and criminals’.
Why should someone without insurance be let off?
Why should a DUI offender not pay the court costs?
Don’t even try and tell me that innocent people are getting written up for violations that don’t exist. You don’t have your seat belt on, it’s pretty obvious. You have your head down while driving, you’re probably texting on your phone. You’re weaving around, you may be drunk or inattentive. But not innocent, even if you can talk your way out of it.
I’m tired of paying for other people, they can pay their own way through life. That includes the court system.
Bet illegal aliens get off Scott free!
If they were found NOT GUILTY then why are they having to pay anything? Sounds like to me they get money no matter how it turns out, this is just plain theft by an Out of Control Government. American is become nothing but a country to milk the people for everything they can.