The Socialization Of America Is Economically Impossible

by | Jul 5, 2012 | Headline News | 260 comments

Do you LOVE America?


    I understand the dream of the common socialist.  I was, after all, once a Democrat.  I understand the disparity created in our society by corporatism (not capitalism, though some foolish socialists see them as exactly the same).  I understand the drive and the desire to help other human beings, especially those in dire need, and the tendency to see government as the ultimate solution to all our problems.  That said, let’s be honest; government is in the end just a tool used by one group or another to implement a particular methodology or set of principles.  Unfortunately, what most socialists today don’t seem to understand is that no matter what strategies they devise, they will NEVER have control.  And, those they wish to help will be led to suffer, because the establishment does not care about them, or you.  The establishment does not think of what it can give, it thinks about what it can take.  Socialism, in the minds of the elites, is a con-game which allows them to quarry the favor of the serfs, and nothing more.

    There are other powers at work in this world; powers that have the ability to play both sides of the political spectrum.  The money elite have been wielding the false left/right paradigm for centuries, and to great effect.  Whether socialism or corporatism prevails, they are the final victors, and the game continues onward…

    Knowing this fact, I find that my reactions to the entire Obamacare debate rather muddled.  Really, I see the whole event as a kind of circus, a mirage, a distraction.  Perhaps it is because I am first and foremost an economic analyst, and when looking at Obamacare and socialization in general, I see no tangibility.  I see no threat beyond what we as Americans already face.  Let me explain…

    Socialism Is Failure

    A country that feels the need to socialize has, in my view, already failed culturally.  It is an open admission by the public that they are unwilling or unable to take responsibility for their own prosperity.  If a society is not able to function in a healthy economic manner without the force of government (an abstract entity often manipulated by corrupt ideals) resulting in the creation of artificial and precarious balance using fiat stimulus and overt taxation, then the people of that country are not remotely independent and self sufficient.  That is to say, only a nation filled with pathetic overgrown children would actually need government to enforce mandatory “charity”, welfare, healthcare, etc.  A truly healthy society supported by strong and self sustainable individuals would not beg to be parented by government.  If a country is so unbalanced as to stoop to socialism, then its ailments already extend far beyond anything government (even good government) could ever hope to cure.

    Obamacare, its tentative application, and those who blindly support its introduction in the U.S., are an example of a weak people groveling for handouts they do not work for nor deserve.  Socialism is defeat.  It is a waving of the white flag by a society and the trading of that culture’s liberty for the illusion of fiscal security.  It is the act of an adolescent and naïve populace groveling for an allowance from their “motherland”.

    If one wants to consider what a socialized America would actually be like, why not examine the track record of the EU, a group of nations which have dabbled extensively in the principles of collective centralization and various levels of socialism, including the extremes of communism and fascism (and yes folks, both are derived from a socialist/collectivist foundation, despite what pseudo-intellectuals and propagandized academics will try and tell you).

    What success have they accomplished in the course of their Utopian endeavors?

    Well, more than half of the states of the European Union have already reached debt to GDP ratios well beyond the limit required to retain membership:

    Several countries, including the UK, France, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece, are all in the midst of severe debt crisis.  The Euro itself is on the verge of disintegration, and in all likelihood, the EU charter will be reexamined, and mutated into something completely different to what exists today.  The central bankers will blame European countries and their “insistence” on maintaining sovereign control over their finances, but ultimately, it is not sovereignty that strangles the EU, but its ridiculous supranational status which is entirely misapplied and has created a state of interdependency that has weakened every member nation to the point of disaster.

    It should be painfully clear to anyone considering socialism as a viable option for America that this kind of system requires fiscal discipline and a vast amount of SAVINGS.  Notice I say “savings” and not “money”.  Money is a carnival ride; an illusion of wealth that can be printed from thin air.  Savings is an actual concrete storage of real capital, an ongoing surplus of manufacturing and production capability resulting in the stockpiling of working credit and ample employment.  Most of the countries of the EU do not have such savings, and never did.  In fact, most European countries have operated for decades on a loss.  They have never been able to live with the direct and indirect investments of outside players.  Because of this, EU countries are utterly unable to keep up with the grand concepts of socialism, and have buried themselves under the crushing debts generated by entitlement programs.

    America is no different.

    Forget Universal Healthcare – The U.S. Is Bust

    There has been a pervasive delusion amongst pro-socialism movements in the United States that we are the “richest country in the world”.  They claim it is “absurd” that the establishment system does not pay for our healthcare with such riches at its disposal.  They consistently rant about Canadian Healthcare and its record of universal treatment.  The problem is, they ignore the details…

    Canada’s national debt stands at around $1.1 Trillion (officially).  Canada’s population sits at around 34 Million.  America’s national debt stands at around $15 Trillion (officially) and our population sits at around 313 Million.  The two countries are entirely different animals.  To clamor for a Canadian style healthcare program for a country with completely opposite economic parameters is idiocy, or lunacy, or both.

    Officially, our economy has already broken the 100% debt to GDP threshold.  Unofficially, but more accurately, the U.S. national debt sits closer to $120 Trillion.  This number accounts not only for public debt, but intragovernmental debt, and implicit debt, meaning, the debt obligations the government has committed to for the near future:…

    I would also like to quickly note that mainstream economists back in 2011 were predicting the U.S. would reach 101% of GDP by 2021.  It is now 2012, only one year later, and we have already crossed the 101% marker.

    Add to this the projected costs of Obamacare ($17 Trillion in estimated long term unfunded obligations), and what you get is a broke-ass country:

    The only factor which has stayed the tide of a full-blown macro-implosion of the U.S. is the world reserve status of our currency.  The dollar is all we have left.  Period.  But don’t count on that for much longer either.  With multiple nations, including China and Japan (our largest foreign debt holders) quietly forming bilateral trade agreements cutting out the use of the greenback, it will not be long before its world reserve status disappears as well, and then, we are on our own.  The private Federal Reserve can print all they want, but if other countries no longer need dollars to facilitate cross border trade, then what we will get is hyperinflation, or stagflation.  Obamacare only expedites this process by generated even more liabilities we cannot cover, thereby giving the central bank even more excuse to churn out dollars with wild abandon.

    To put it plainly, all those people who believe America is the “richest country in the world” are living in mushroom land.  We-are-broke.  Bust.  In the red.  In the hole.  Insolvent.  Our pockets have become lint traps.  We’re switching from fine Belgian beer to Busch Light.  And, we can’t all move back in with our parents like so many Obamacare proponents I have met…

    Go Ahead, Try To Enforce Obamacare…

    We-have-no-money.  Therefore, the debate over universal socialized medicine is pointless.  It is mathematically and economically impossible to implement.  What the Supreme Court says on the subject of socialization certainly matters in terms of principle, and they have failed Americans spectacularly in that respect (or served their globalist sugar-daddies well; however you want to look at it).  But, in terms of finance, the Supreme Court’s shocking decision means nothing.

    One of Ron Paul’s primary arguments against the ongoing wars in the Middle East has always been that whether one agrees with these conflicts or not is irrelevant.  The U.S. does not have the means to fund them.  Eventually, we will break the bank and the dollar to maintain our presence in the region, and thus, the wars WILL end, one way or another.  The same philosophy goes for Obamacare and every other socializing program presented in America.

    They will say that taxation will cover the costs; but how do you raise taxes on a populace that is growing more destitute every year.  How do you take money from people if they do not have it?  This tactic doesn’t seem to be working very well for Europe.  Also, keep in mind that as population and inflation grow exponentially, so will costs.  Meaning, the taxation will have to expand as fast, or faster, than the expenditures.  This is why so many opponents of Obamacare voice concerns over population reduction programs and rejected care; they are an inevitable end result.  When you institutionalize health and life under the auspices of bureaucracy, you must also invariably institutionalize death.  Population and life suddenly become a numbers issue to the state, rather than a moral issue.

    They will say that the penalties to those who refuse to participate will cover the costs of the rest.  Again, how to you take money from people that do not have it?  What if millions of people simply refuse to participate, AND refuse to pay penalties?

    They will say “tax the corporations”, and we could, but, as the derivatives crisis has proven, most major corporations in the U.S. are on the government take just to survive.  We cannot have corporate bailouts and increased corporate taxation at the same time.  The bailouts would have to end, the companies would collapse (as they should, but that’s besides the point), and we’re right back to where we started.  Just like our government, most corporations also operate on false wealth.  They will not be paying for Obamacare anytime soon.

    They will say that it is all for the greater good, but since when has the establishment been qualified to define what the “greater good” is?  Is Obamacare really a matter of conscience?  Or, is it a farce flaunted about as if it is a matter of conscience?

    They will say that people must be forced to do what is right for the group.  I say, such hubris has always led to catastrophe.  Usually, it is the select beneficiaries of tyrannical cultures that call for the might of the central government to be wrought upon the rest of the citizenry.  Not to do right by conscience, but to satiate their desire for control.  Men love government as long as it is imposing their particular world view, and as long as the tables never turn.

    They will say that current medical practices and costs are terrible and something must be done.  I agree.  However, Obamacare is not the answer.  If there is one thing that wears thin upon my mind it is the one track thinking of the progressive ilk who know that Obama’s healthcare initiative is a stop gap at best, but barrel forward anyway because “at least it is something different”.

    “Don’t you want to help the poor”, they say.

    Certainly.  I want to help them by saving them from the disaster that socialism will inevitably lead to.

    Principles and existentialist debates aside, the primary economic question still remains; where is a realistic plan to pay for this monstrosity of a program?  I have yet to see a single grounded solution to the quandary.  How does one pay for something he will never be able to afford?  If there are no means, there will be no Obamacare.

    You can contact Brandon Smith at:  [email protected]

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      1. Excellent..

        Question is..

        will Obamacare even exist before it is implemented given our massive debt spiral rapidly headed to a climax..?

        • It doesn’t exist for me anyway …. it is a fictional “law” of a fiction.

          Fictions tremble in the presence of a Man.

          • We live in an “upside-down world”.

            You know you live in an Upside-down Land if…
            • A Muslim officer crying “Allah Akbar” while shooting up an army base is considered to have committed “Workplace Violence”, while an American citizen boasting a Tea Party bumper sticker is classified by the Secretary of Homeland Security as a “Domestic Terrorist”.

            You know you live in an Upside-down Land if…
            • You can get arrested for expired tags on your car, but not for being in the country illegally.

            You know you live in an Upside-down Land if…
            • Your government believes that the best way to eradicate trillions of dollars of debt is to spend trillions more of our money.

            You know you live in an Upside-down Land if…
            • A seven year old boy can be thrown out of school for calling his teacher “pretty” but hosting a sexual exploration or diversity class in grade school is perfectly acceptable.

            You know you live in an Upside-down Land if…
            • The Supreme Court of the United States can rule that lower courts cannot display the 10 Commandments in their courtroom, while sitting in front of a display of the 10 Commandments.

            You know you live in an Upside-down Land if…
            • Children are forcibly removed from parents who appropriately discipline them while children of “underprivileged” drug addicts are left to rot in filth infested cesspools.

            You know you live in an Upside-down Land if…
            • Working class Americans pay for their own health care (and the health care of everyone else) while unmarried women are free to have child after child on the “State’s” dime while never being held responsible for their own choices.

            You know you live in an Upside-down Land if…
            • Hard work and success are rewarded with higher taxes and government intrusion, while slothful, lazy behavior is rewarded with EBT cards, WIC checks, Medicaid and subsidized housing.

            You know you live in an Upside-down Land if…
            • The government’s plan for getting people back to work is to provide 99 weeks of unemployment checks to not work.

            You know you live in an Upside-down Land if…
            • Being self-sufficient is considered a threat to the government.

            You know you live in an Upside-down Land if…
            • Politicians think that stripping away the amendments to the U.S. Constitution is really protecting the rights of the people.

            You know you live in an Upside-down Land if…
            • The rights of the Government come before the rights of the individual.

            You know you live in an Upside-down Land if…
            • Parents believe the State is responsible for providing for their children.

            You know you live in an Upside-down Land if…
            • You can write a post like this just by reading the news headlines in the media.

            You know you live in an Upside-down Land if…
            • You pay your mortgage faithfully, while your neighbor defaults on his mortgage, buys iphones, big screen TVs and new cars, and the government forgives his debt and reduces his mortgage with your tax dollars.

            You know you live in an Upside-down Land if…
            • Your government can add anything it wants to your kid’s water (fluoride, chlorine, etc.), but you are not supposed to give them whole milk.

            You know you live in an Upside-down Land if…
            • Being stripped of the ability to defend yourself makes you “safe”.

            You know you live in an Upside-down Land if…
            • You have to have your parents signature to go on a school field trip, but not to get an abortion.

            You know you live in an Upside-down Land if…
            • An 80 year old woman can be stripped searched by the TSA, but a Muslim woman in a burka is only subject to having her neck and head searched.

            Unfortunately, this list could go on and on.
            Our world has been turned upside-down.

            Wake up America!

            • Thanks KY MOM: You know if you stand on your head to long all the blood goes there and guess what happens. The rest of the body starves for blood and dies. There are a lot of other things also happens, but you are a goner. To much stress on the old ticker. The country’s ticker is about to stop, and I fear there is nothing that can be done to save it. We will have to live the best we can with what we have our hands on. So get your hands on as much as you can NOW. But thats just me.
              Live Free

            • this is so good I shared it on my fb page. I hope you don’t mind.

            • i have posted before as jim but i realized there was already a jim that post often so i will go as jimbo. i just wanted to say to KY mom would you consider running for office? common sense is needed badly in Washington and you have it in spades! outstanding post!

            • Quoted

            • Outstanding encapsulation of society’s ill health. I have shared this with my friends (not via facebook). Your name should go up in lights.


            • Two Thumbs Up KY Mom!

            • +10,000,000 KY Mom!

            • Bravo, Ky Mom.

              I’ve been lurking here for a year and never felt compelled to join in, until I saw your post. You are right on.

            • KY MOMDoDo!

            • shared on yahoo and Facebook.

            • A push of the reset button is necessary. There will be no “taking back our country”. USA in it’s current configuration is finished. Partition is the answer, just like it was for USSR.

            • KY Mom, Muslims in America are under more scrutiny and are watched more than anyone else in this country. No media or politician cares whatsoever if Muslims are criticized nor do they care if their rights are gone and taken away. So please don’t make them look like they are bad people. About the Burka, many Muslim woman get rejected from job opportunities because they wear the headscarf. But no one cares….Military recently banned target practice on pictures of Muslim women with Quran verses in the back. Is there anything American about this?

              By the way, the soldier who killed 9 children among the 16 dead Afghanis, media said he had psychological problems. So there’s no difference between how fort hood shooter was labeled and the soldier who shot the Afghanis was labeled. Both were under pressure, one from racism in the military and the other from all the wars he was allowed to serve in.


              At least there are some people in D.C. that care about your rights, but the truth is that no one cares about mines.

              Other than that, right on!

            • This is outstanding. Thank you KYMom!

            • Thank you everyone for your kind words. I received this in an email and have passed it on to everyone I know. If inclined, feel free to share it too.

              We can wake people up…even if it is only one person at a time.

              Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world.
              Nelson Mandela

              Take care! Stay strong! Keep prepping!
              KY Mom

            • Wow, Thank you KY Mom. Hopefully your words can be used to shake some more sheep out of their slumber. Best wishes.

            • KY Mom et al: Great replies everyone. It looks like our favorite socialist has been here and given at least one ‘Thumbs Down’ on all of you. He/She will be back to give me at least one after morning prayers at the alter of ‘Big Brother’. The sad truth is that we have been in decline for some time and this(Obamacare) is just another ‘proof’ that end is near. Bread and circuses were the order of the day when Rome was crumbling, it kept the minds of the citizens off of their troubles of inflation because over extension of their military in foreign lands, over regulation and taxation of businesses all to feed the growing lazy and decadent population by politians who promised more and more to the people. Sound familiar to anyone? We too will break up into smaller parts like Rome and the Soviet Union did. It won’t happen all at once but more like one day when you call about a pothole, no one answers because the office is closed most days due to sever budget cuts. The cops and firefighters won’t come unless there’s some on-going battle that could spread. This will begin at all levels of government. One day we’ll wake up in our communities that are slowly dying and realize that it’s YOYO Time, Your-On-Your-Own. Better get ready because it’s already started.

            • “The rights of the Government come before the rights of the individual”.

              I truly do not know what this means, for the government has no rights, none at all. The government does have powers and these are granted by the people. We can, should, and must withdraw a generous portion of this grant of power so that the government is reduced in size to 1/2 and perhaps even less than it is today. Only in this way can we prevent the government from consuming this nation until nothing but its gnawed bones remain.

            • So right KY Mom.

              How the hell did it come to this?

        • possee, I agree that the article is excellent and gives a different perspective. Yet, I wonder if we’ll exist by the time dummercare takes hold, ‘can’t squeeze blood from a turnip’. People are broke and out of work.
          The main point of everything happining (via the gov’t) is the distruction/distruction of the constitution and it isn’t just Roberts, people forget there were 4 other judges that voted against the constitution that they were to up hold (lip service).

          • Let’s do some funny math. My wife and I’s Blue Shield runs about $1200 a month, that’s $600 each, roughly. Let’s use that figure as a base.
            Bamamama is going to buy healthcare for 30 million uninsured at $600 a month, I am not sure but isn’t that around $18 billion a month? By 12 months that’s $216 billion annually? By 10 years that’s what, $2.16 Trillion?
            Sorry for my skepticism, my $9 dollar calculator only goes out to 12 places.
            Looks like a hell of a plan, doesn’t it?

          • drd

            The few that are left actually working will be taxed into oblivion..
            The entire structure is planned to destroy ingenuity via incremental cuts til we bleed to death..and submit to the state..
            Meanwhile, those who still hold true to the Constitution and idea of personal liberty are now aggressively targeted as the new American Al(cia) recently revealed in the dhs study at the university of Maryland.

            Those who resist the new state will be black bagged.

            God save our Republic..what little is left of it.


        • Brandon, What an excellant essay. You managed to convey many salient points in a relativley short read.
          I am of the opinion now, implement as much and as fast as possible, initiate the inevitable collapse, pick up the peices and lets get on with the program.
          Lets “flush the toilet” and “thin the herd”.

          I am not your goddamn zoo animal and don’t need nor want you care and feeding.
          I am a wild beast ( go ahead and laugh), and will make my own way in this jungle or die trying.
          My offspring will be of better stock because of my training. They in turn will pass these survival qualities on to their young.
          And my stock, blended with other winners will create a society of wealth and prosperity.
          And we will generously offer help and assistance to those who, while trying, hit bad luck.
          And we will give of our own free will.
          And people from all over the world will admire us and aspire to make it to our shores, not for a handout, but for a tryout.
          And if they can cut it, they too will make the team.
          And we will welcome them. No matter what their race or religion. Because they will forgo all ties to their former team, and become one of us. Totally. Completely.
          And winners will win, and losers will lose. Because that is the natural order of things. That is how all living things grow and prosper.
          And we won’t fight the natural order.
          And we won’t be perfect, but we sure will be wonderful.

          And we will call this land of opportunity and prosperity… The United States of America

        • awaiting the inevitable sovereign debt downgrade…

        • A fictional law I will ignore from a Government I no longer heed.

        • ObamaCare is not about universal health care.

          ObamaCare is about making doctors even more disgusted so that even more quit. ObamaCare is about making medicine such an unappealing job that only dullards do it.

          ObamaCare is REALLY about PLANNED ROTTEN HEALTH “CARE” so that YOU DIE and the dynastic banksters and tribal financiers who think that money and their Master Race makes them “elite” get the the 1/2 billion world population of goyim slaves that they want.

          Don’t kid yourself otherwise. The synagogue of Satan wants you dead (95%) or enslaved (5%).

        • I believe the answer is yes why and would encourage those who read this to research the following topics. 1. Verichip 2. Georgia guidestones google search for this. 3. A future situation to set the stage for this 4. Revelation 13:16-18 He also forced everyone small and great, rich and poor free and slave, to receive a mark which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. This calls for wisdom. if one has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast for it is man’s number. His number is 666. Do you understand the times we are living in Daniel 12:4?

          5. Finally I would suggest researching the UCC Maritime Law/Commerce Law compared to common law

          and another good book is “They own it all” (including you!) By means of Toxic Currency ISBN:978-1-4392-3361-0

          If you read the bill closely and comments made why this bill would pass under Commerce Law. If you find out anything contrary to this research after reviewing post back please.

        • Obrownhole care is not about the fixing of the already massivly abused system ita about expanding it so the poor can use it to go to the bahamas and be pampered with free drinks and massages for their already mindless thearapy….

        • I agree with the author. Any healthy society must have free market capitalism in some form. But the issue he dodges is that a purely capitalist economy cannot support civilized standards of life for all. Governments borrow from private banks at compound interest. However high the levels of taxation, the interest mounts geometrically, until bloated debts are unpayable – what we have.

          He also ignores what has been happening historically. Mechanization, automation & cybernetics have made millions jobless globally. Governments either find a mechanism to support these people, or it starts mass killing of the ‘surplus’. OGT

      2. There will always be more men and women than corp officers. That is what makes escape possible and guarantees the failure of those who try to openly enslave the People.

        Freedom is there for those who choose it.

        • Freedom is there for those who are willing to fight for it.

      3. I have little doubt, Justice Roberts was pressured from outside (motivated) forces. Most likely in the form of threats against his family, but the exact type of pressure is somewhat irrelevant. With Roberts now in a no-win situation (vote against, reap the consequences; vote for, ratify a law he doesn’t agree with).

        So he leaned on his Harvard education & vast experience to find a way through this mess which would appear to satisfy those wishing him harm, yet leave a window open to ultimately strike down his ruling.

        His solution… Deem Obamacare as a tax. By doing so, TPTB and their paid-for media outlets quickly trumpted victory…However, the detail they failed to observe is that ALL tax legislation MUST originate in the House of Representatives. Because Obamacare originated within the Senate, by its nature, it cannot be a tax bill, thus Justice Robert’s ruling (while appearing to be in favor of this atrocity) actually condemned it on its face.

        Of course, he can claim, “Aw shucks, I didn’t think of that” to those that wish him harm, but he’s far more brilliant and patriotic then he’s presently getting credit. He shrewdly found a way to slide open a side window (to protect his family etc) while simultaneously slamming the door on Obamacare…and did so with a wink and a nod counting on the fact that we’d be smart enough to see the forest through the trees.

        Wake up folks. We’re at war here on many fronts. And in war, when you can’t overpower your opponent, you’ve got to out maneuveur him…Bravo Justice Roberts…Bravo.

        • Whatever. History will remember him as a traitor, like Edmund Reed who refused to impeach Andrew Johnson.

          JFK (A democrat) praised Reed as a great man, but it can’t be denied that Reed, who used to be a poor lawyer, retired to a huge farm he bought with money whose source he never revealed…

        • Or, just maybe, he is a criminal agent who found the only way he could rule in favor of his principles was to change what it was and call it a tax, knowing all along that tax cases are never decided on facts or constitutional grounds.

          I think you most likely give too much credit to someone who deserves a lynching by the People during the enforcement of OUR Law that he does not recognize.

        • I contacted my Congressman’s office about this, and was told that parts of obamacare DID originate in the House, and parts came from the Senate as well. The Senate then put the package together. No joy on getting repealed on that basis. However, he did comfirm that as a tax only 51 Senate votes are needed to repealthis mess. But said they wouldn’t have those until after the elections IF we took back the Senate. So people, there is your focus. Keep the House, take back the Senate. And bigears must go…

          • He also said that despite the House vote scheduled for July 11, the Senate dems have lots of tools in their toolbox (prob could have just stopped at lots of tools…but i digress) to prevent the vote from even reaching the floor. Sorry, would have like to gotten better answers, but at least the focus is where it should be – on the battle ahead not just on hope.

            • If this bill/tax stands, we are still controlled by deeply corrupt health insurance companies that make more money when they provide less healthcare, changing health care as we know it into a system based on one-size-fits-all, cost-controlled and conveyor belt socialized medicine.

              We can ignore reality, but we cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality. ayn rand

            • You guys are forgetting that the unseen result of this SCrOTUS ruling is that it is now swarming in the media as a “tax” which is not going to bode well for Captain Zero’s campaign, especially in a time when we all are already being squeezed for every dollar we have.

            • The battle ahead, aka November 2012, will look a great deal like the battle behind, aka November 2010… only worse… much much worse for the thieves of liberty. This handwriting is also on the wall and many of them are beginning to squirm VERY uncomfortably. Good. May they all get exactly what they so richly deserve… a giant American-made boot up their arse.

          • Unfortunately obamacare was patterned after massachusetts law and who was governor of mass? It was mitt! We are up the creek! Republicans and democrats are the same. They are all pigs wallowing in the same trough full of crap.

          • If any change is made to a law by the senate,that law needs to go back to the house for approval of the new changes.This never happened. Therefore,this “tax” does not follow the Constitution for a valid law. The house makes the laws, the senate either has to vote yea or nea on the law as written by them, OR If the senate wants to make a change to that law, even if only a single word, which the senate did,that law has goes back to committee in the house to approve or reject the senate changes.

            That NEVER HAPPENED!

            It never happened because they all knew that this bogus law that was only voted for under bribes (Cornhusker kickback, Louisiana purchase),coercion (Obama said how many times do I have to say it, THIS IS NOT A TAX),and in the dead of night on Christmas eve the first time, would never have passed the smell test and receive enough votes a second time if and when we the people got wind of this farce.Why do you think ole Nancy said you had to vote for it to find out what was in it?

            So it just barely passed the house, the senate made changes and then voted it into law without the house approving those changes,And the lie’r in chief signed it saying it was not a tax. And finally the Supreme court had to rewrite the law to claim that it was a tax and not a penalty to ease the constitutional hurdle.

        • I am unsurer about taxes originating in the house. I thought it was spending bills.

        • VRF,

          Hi! I read that article too. I doubt the MSM will report this.

          Hmm…multiple birthdates for that social security number.

          “The social security number Obama has been using had previously been issued to another person, one who lived in Connecticut between 1977 and 1979 and who was born in 1890.”

          • I know..just sooooo many things about this “guy” that dont add up. Or should I say, when they add up it doesnt come out looking good.

        • so now Obama’s the cause of the social security crisis now?? Wow.

          • how and the hell did you come up with that out of what we both said?…huh? explane yourseelf

            yeah buttburger is a great screen name for ya

          • if you’re going to write something, learn to WRITE!!!!!!
            Obviously an Obama voter

      4. We as a country will eventually rebuild to a strong nation behind our natural resources and food production. Between now and that point it will be very very ugly. I pray there is no collapse, but I don’t see how in this political and socialistic environment that is is avoidable.

        Say what you want about RICH99, but he makes some valid points as well. They will kick the can down the road several more times until there is no more road. At that dead end, they will realize there is nowhere else to kick it, turn around to find the streets filled with a nation of ticked off people.

        I think there will be a revolution of sorts. Hopefully it’s through voting. If our country doesn’t turn around and change it’s ways there will be a violent interim between the government and the populace.

        It still amazes me to no end that we can see other countries waist deep in socialism folding while other producing nations like Germany still prosper. Is it that hard to see the right direction?

        I’m still writing Ron Paul’s name on my ballot. He is the only one who has spoken the truth about our nations debt and finances. Obummer and Romney are both the establishment. To bring around real change for this country, we need more people in Congress and the White House who will shake the hands of the millions stretching them out to get filled with their socialism cash.

        Personally I think Romney will be elected and nothing will change. The can will continue to be kicked. Given that, I hope they kick it long enough to the point where I can say I’m fully prepped.

        God Bless

        • Amen NP

        • Foolish to write in Ron Paul….
          There is only ONE active candidate who has promised to repeal ObummerCare….If Obummer is re-selected he will veto whatever the House and Senate do….So get Mitt Romney elected and FORCE him to live up to his promise….

          If you vote 3rd party as “a protest vote” you must like what we are getting out of DC, because we will get more of it with the Obummer re-selection.

          Do whatever you can to get Obama out of office and then hold Romney to ALL of his promises….Be Loud, Be Proud, but throw Obama OUT

          • “It is enough to say there was an election. Those hwo cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything.” – Joseph Stalin

            I really hate to keep repeating this, but this is where we are. The “elections” are nothing but frauds, fakes, lies, shell-games, part of the Bread&Circuses campaign to keep you diverted. Nothing but a dillusion for those who won’t face reality. The game is up.

            The Republic will stand or fall on this generation, “voting” will not save it.

            • The hell you say! I plan on voting… a lot… 762×39 times, to be exact!

          • Mitt Romney will repeal NOTHING. Fuck me…… HE just about WROTE the fucking Bill. Look at what he did in Mass.
            Please. He is a fucking asshole too. These guys give you a little lip service and you fall hook, line and sinker for their SHIT every fucking time. No wonder we have assholes in office. Seems like all we have is assholes for voters.

          • A vote for either is a vote to kick the can. A vote for the lesser of 2 evils is still evil. If Rmoney (meant the spelling) is elected, our nation just dies a slower death. If Obummer keeps the office it is definitely worse. Thank God when Lincoln ran as a third party candidate people didn’t think this way.

            Second, there are dead American soldiers in graves around this world who gave all so that I would have the right to vote for who I believe is best suited to lead this nation. To vote for a man who was the original Obamacare author so that the Obamacare implementor doesn’t hold office would be me helping kick the can down the road, not to mention it would be flipping the bird at those brave soldiers who died for my freedom to vote who I choose.

            I am not wasting my vote. I’m not voting to show protest, I’m voting for the man who in my opinion should be our next president. I will still be able to sleep at night knowing I did what was right.

            I contest that a vote for Rmoney or Obummer is throwing away the country. Your vote will count and your vote will not be thrown away, just the country.

            God Bless

        • The streets that are filled with ticked off people will be blaming each other, not the politicians. It would be utter madness.

          • Very true. As it has been since this mess started (first government if you will) They are only here for their self interest, and that has been bled in to scociety. Governments will save no one. Its the most simple of answers actually. It all has to do with knowledge (not education). Its easy to think that very few people in the world still possess knowledge, as our situations have made it easy to be cynical towards one another. Most still have some kind of it, they have just been bullied to ignore it, and have been taught that it is wrong. The only way out of this is through the passing down of the knowledge that is left. But as far as I can tell, with each passing generation, we are further from that goal. Very few children/young adults I see today have little interest in having any moral compass, self reliance, or the want to “grow up”. They all want “it” for free, and they want it NOW.

        • If you keep going republicans, they will demolish even more epa regulations because of corporate greed, which means that our “natural resources” will be plundered, the water will be toxic, our food supply will lack nutrients (if radiation from japan doesnt get to it first). Big picture, “corporatism” is the problem, not obama, not romney. If you vote for people in favor this attitude (remember, THEY”RE the job creators, not the people who shop in their stores), you will be going down a big deep hole that is bigger than any elected official on their own.

      5. I watched a program about five years ago ,where they got 8 top specialists from around the world to come toeghther for a few months, travel to different countries and look at their healthcare and to come up with one for the U.S.A..Their findings..cannot be done, for the simply fact theres eay to many people in the states..The only one in the world that works is Austria…but that took them years to work out the bugs.Plus thats such a tiny area…They need to open up the states and let us pick our own insurance like we do for our car insurance..But that wont happen because its not in obama’s favor….silly me!!!! ( what was i thinking) lol…..

        • loulou

          Thinking is now considered to be a tool of domestic terrorism. Thanks for joining the kill list!

          • Yea,Pete-Has anyone else noticed that more & more people are getting locked up for just thinking about committing a crime! Kind of reminds me of George Orwells “Thought Police”! And the scary part is a lot of it was stuff that was wrote or taken from the internet.Guess the NSA will HAVE TO check me out now! I’m waitin & watchin!

        • This is precisley why our government was set up as a federal republic.
          The power was given to the states, not the feds.
          The basic idea; each state can, within the confines of the Constitution, do whatever it’s citzens think is best for them. The can “experiment”. Like “Romney Care”. If I don’t like it, I can move. Where do I move to now?

          The states have, over the years, ceded or sold their authority to the feds. The feds “withhold funds” if the states don’t fall in line.

          Most people today believe, in error, that the Feds sit at the top of the power pyramid.
          That is not how we were formed. The top is supposed to be the citizen, then county, then state, and last, the Feds.

          If an elected Sheriff, State Trooper and FBI agent are all at a scene, the Sheriff is the highest ranking officer on the scene. Or at least he is supposed to be.

      6. We are going the way of Greece. This just accelerates our demise. The problem is I see a time where multiple Govt’s will implode cause a global economic collapse because of the lure for socialism.

        • Former Prime Minister Maragret Thatcher once said that “The trouble with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money.” If the road to Hell is paved with good intentions then progressives within both parties are driving the bus. We blame our representatives, but they are elected by a majority of the populace who benefit from ‘other people’s money’ now or will in the near future.

          Cutting off every penny for the poor will not save us. Baby Boomers paid their welfare tax and this huge demographic will demand their welfare when they turn 62 or 65 and for the next thirty years. Yes it’s welfare. Like it or not there are people who collect who do not ‘pay in.’ Everyone who initially collected when it was originally passed immediately qualified. My own grandmother collected for thirty years without ever paying once cent in Social Security Taxes. In 1960 The Supreme Court ruled in Flemming vs. Nestor that Social Security is an entitlement which can be changed at any time. It is not a retirement plan.

          While we cannot change the way the wind in blowing, we can adjust our sails. Debts and other entitlements will be paid off in inflated dollars. Modify your life so you need as few of them as possible. My second home produces its own home heat, meat, power, and water, and I already have building sites for my children as they are the only hope I have of being cared for in my old age. Plan the work and work the plan!

          • Words of wisdom

      7. We need a re-set button. And it needs to be pushed RIGHT NOW!

        Kick out all politicians, all mid to high level bureaucrats, close down all the bloated federal agencies, wipe out all regulations, etc, etc etc etc.

        Return to the true purpose of federal govt – maintaining a military/protecting our borders, enforcing laws to prevent people from harming each other and I’ll even throw in keeping up with infrastructure.

        Sit back, watch the madness ensue but within 1-2 years we’ll have a nice place to live again as people realize they will have to actually work & be self sufficient to survive. If they are not, they won’t make it.

        The way it is now is not good. The direction we are headed is catastrophic.

        The 13,000 pages of new obamacare tax laws the obama administration just drafted and the $1 billion given to health & human services for obamacare should be proof enough.

        • I agree about the reset button. Wouldn’t it be something if that reset looked something like the mid 1800’s? You know where people actually worked for themselves, farmed their own land if they wanted to eat or bartered for goods.

          In our quest for convenience we have gotten so far away from the basics.

      8. I just love how absolutely apoplectic get whenever Obamacare is even mentioned

        and what is fascinating to me is that when I ask them SPECIFICALLY what it is they have problems with
        they can’t answer
        I always get some talking point or bumper sticker slogan

        at the risk of being a glutton for punishment
        I am going to ask that question here
        How,specifically,does Obamacare affect YOU?
        How does it in any way make YOUR life worse ?

        • Satori,
          Here are just a few examples of how this conundrum will affect me, you, everyone.

          At the heart of President Barack Obama’s health-care plan is an insurance program funded by taxpayers, administered by Washington, and open to everyone. Modeled on Medicare, this “public option” will soon become the single dominant health plan, which is its political purpose. It will restructure the practice of medicine and
          Republicans and Democrats agree that the government’s Medicare scheme for compensating doctors is deeply flawed. Yet Mr. Obama’s plan for a centrally managed government insurance program exacerbates Medicare’s problems by redistributing even more income away from lower-paid primary care providers and misaligning doctors’ financial incentives.
          Like Medicare, the “public option” will control spending by using its purchasing clout and political leverage to dictate low prices to doctors. (Medicare pays doctors 20% to 30% less than private plans, on average.) While the public option is meant for the uninsured, employers will realize it’s easier — and cheaper — to move employees into the government plan than continue workplace coverage.

          ( – On the same day that House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) was chiding House Republicans over job creation, the director of the Congressional Budget Office was testifying in the House Budget Committee that the health-care law President Barack Obama signed last year will kill about 800,000 American jobs over the next decade.

          Pages from the bill,
• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
          This just sounds bad for everyone. Personally, having asthma and seeing a therapist occasionally, I don’t want some distanced committee decide what treatments I get when they are more worried about their political position. Especially if I have no way of appealing the decision. Me not having a say in my health care doesn’t agree with me.
          • Page 42: The “Health Choices Commissioner” will decide health benefits for you.
          Having any kind of “Commissioner” deciding my health benefits rubs me the wrong way. It reeks of over generalized, apathetic, uninvolved decision-making for the masses. How can one person decide benefits for so many people while actually being involved enough to be in my best interest?
          • Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
          Opening the floodgates for FREE services for all citizens even illegal aliens will clearly diminish the quality of the care not to mention delay the already painfully slow service time. Having asthma and this type of healthcare, the risk is run of me being without my medication for extended amounts of time while sitting on waiting list or in long lines due to the expounded number of health care recipients.
          • Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens 

          Again allowing illegal aliens healthcare not only lengthens lines, and reduces quality, but also that will further encourage illegal immigrants to flood into the country at more alarming rates than they already do. Stretching our country even more economically.

        • Obamacare requires me to purchase something that I may not want or they will tax me yet it doesn’t require illegal aliens to purchase it and they are still covered.

          It makes the nation worse. Since when does a government, any government, have the right to tell you what you are required by law to buy from another private entity. Where does it end. According to this they could require you to buy anything they want.

          • I like what Rep. Allen West said; if you’re going to mandate that we purchase something, then mandate we all purchase a 9mm (or arms of your choice!). Point made, and the left surely won’t address that one.

            Oh, but the U.N. will.

        • If you don’t know Satori, then you are quite possibly beyond hope.

          Here’s a very short list to help get you started.
          1. $1 billion just given the health & human services to begin the obamacare process and that is just the beginning(that comes from folks like ME)
          2. My insurance premiums have skyrocketed in anticipation of this boondoggle
          3. 13,000 pages of new tax regulations were just drafted to start obamacare (paid for by folks like ME)
          4. Like it or not, this will lead to the healthcare bell curve. In a few decades when I turn 70, the govt might decide I’m at the end of the list because I’m not contributing as much to society anymore (remember, govt run, single payer is the end goal. obamacare won’t work with private companies running insurance – eventually they will go under & the govt will take over)
          5. I can no longer pay for my insurance with Pre-Tax dollars using a HSA. That is a tax increase.
          6. Millions (experts say 20-30 million) of Americans will be dropped from their employers healthcare and be forced to purchase govt run healthcare on their own. This will happen because the $2000 penalty is cheaper than the coverage and many employers will see that their employees can have coverage & it will cost them less. A SINGLE PAYER system is the eventual goal.
          7. With millions more Americans now mooching off the healthcare system (because this plan adds millions more individuals to medicaid) there will now be lines at doctors offices, many doctors have said they will quit rather than deal with all of this lesser pay & the regulations so that will worsen the shortage. So, my care will be compromised and I will have to pay, through taxes, for all the losers to have insurance too.
          8. Obamacare costs to the taxpayers now looks like it is in the trillions – according to the CBO – who conveniently misrepresented the amount early in the process
          9. Last but not least. The government has now been told that they can force us to purchase ANYTHING as long as they call it a tax. Bye Bye Liberty & individual freedom.

          The ONLY good thing to come out of this bill is that those with pre-existing conditions cannot be denied care. That could have been handled with a one page bill through Congress.

          • Mr. B: I think that your number 4 is correct but I am speculating that since the gov’t loves to pick winners and losers, some insurance companies will be selected to oversee the single payer system. As an example look at student loans, the defense industry and I think JPM was a beneficary of the food stamp program. It lines the pockets of politicians just perfectly and keeps the well connected incredibly wealthy.

            I am hoping that all the medical professionals who still want to serve the public go back to a cash system rather than just quitting. If that happens it will be the one good thing to come out of this.

            • Saddle Up
              I think you are dead on correct in your opinions
              Obamacare may ultimately prove to be the opening of Pandora’s box
              at least in this regard

            • Saddle up
              It forces all Medical workers into a Union. 1/3 of all M.D’s are planning to retire because of it. So when you can’t find a Doctor, or are put on a waiting list, How is that good?

            • ObamaCare says that if you are denied treatment by their “care panel” you may not purchase/pay for out of your own pocket, that care. So if they decide you can’t get their care, you can’t get any care. Bye Bye

            • C: To clarrify what I meant by going to cash wasn’t for surgeries only someone like a general practitioner. I go to dentists that have a different payment structure for cash patients because then they need only bill me not fight with the insurance companies. My chiropractor has the same kind of deal.

        • hmmm
          numerous thumbs down for even daring to ask a question ?

          asking people to think ?

          and to articulate their opinions?
          in a constructive way ?

          my bad

          • forces all medical workers into a union?????

            link please

            • well come on

              post a link

              if I’m going to joining a union
              I’d at least like a little notice

              HA HA HA

          • It looks to me like plenty of specific reasons I don’t know why you can’t bother to read any.

            My wife works for the VA. She gets health insurance. In 2018 she’ll be paying income tax on that “cadillac” plan the VA gives her for her work. I am opposed to that because its not really “cadillac.”

            Ultimately what Obama care accomplishes is simple. It gives the middle class’ health care system to the 10% of society that can’t afford it for themselves; free of charge and without a “bit” of expansion. I think the working class of America just took a big ole hosing – is that specific enough for you?

        • @ satori – as a business owner(farmer/home builder) i am gonna get hit double .
          i only have 4 employees for both business’s , and these jobs have traditionaly not included healthcare.
          do you know the profit margin in residential construction? any idea how hard it is to make a buck with a family farm ?
          this will end one of them ,and because i believe in being prepared i won’t be hard to figure out i will be letting carpenters go.i will work alone.

          • and what would you like me to read ? LOL

          • well damn
            no union????

            I’m disappointed
            I was going to be a high ranking union official
            and pay myself a six figure salary

            oh well
            back to work
            crap crap crap !!!!

            • well its midnight here
              past Satori’s bedtime
              but I’ll be sure to check for that link to the union thingy
              first thing in the morning

              nite all

            • Satori,

              I also read soemthing about Obamacare forcing medical workers to unionize.

              For some reason, when I try to search for it on the internet…it is “not found”. It wouldn’t surprise me that the “search engines” or the article itself has been removed from the internet. Information that is not wanted to be known and shared “disappears”.

              I read from alot of different sources, so I am not sure where it was posted.

              KY Mom

          • Must have 50 employees to be forced to provide employees insurance.

            • That “loophole” will quickly be closed.

            • KY Mom

              thanks for your post

              I have searched through hell and high water
              and I can find absolutely nothing to back up that claim
              and I do mean NOTHING

              you can pull up the entire Obamacare bill online
              I have done so
              I can find nothing to back up that particular claim

              there are numerous references on quite a few sites
              but not a single one provides a link
              not one

              at this point I have to think this is erroneous information

        • Can you not read?

          • and what would you like me to read ? LOL

            sorry , i hit the wrong reply button , above.

        • What’s not to like about Obamacare? Where to start?

          Just to name a FEW of the worst aspects of it. With Obamacare we will get higher costs and longer waits for medical care, more government control over our lives = less freedom, and the largest tax increase in the history of the world – 21 tax increases.

          “A government that pays most health care bills will soon be dictating the everyday behavior of its people…”

          One of the worst aspects is the regulation of physicians.
          The heart and soul of Obamacare is to “deny care and ration care as a means to cut costs. A formula that is the most inhumane and unethical means of cutting costs.”

          I believe Obamacare violates the Hippocratic Oath, which basically says physicians will “attend to the sick and do them NO harm”. It is unethical.

          It won’t matter if you have the funds to pay for a needed surgery…If a person is not “approved” for the surgery, no hospital or physician will be “permitted” to perform the surgery without facing steep fines, penalties, etc.

          The first part of Obamacare was actually hidden in the stimulus bill. A rationing board was created and called the “Federal Coordinating Council for Competitive Effectiveness Research”. The 15 members of the lead “rationing board” have already been appointed. This has been funded with 1.1 billion dollars.

          Also hidden in the stimulus bill was the creation of the “National Coordinator for Health Information Technology”. The coordinator will be guiding medical decisions in doctors’ offices and hospitals. In Obamacare it states, “This coordinator will guide medical decisions at the time and place of care.”

          First, Do No Harm
          (Short, but good video by Dr. Dave Janda, an orthopedic surgeon.)

          Thoughts on Obamacare from a Surgeon and Friend

          Obamacare is the Largest Tax Increase in the History of the World
          21 Tax Increases…

          Selling your house next year? Well, pay up. Under the new health care bill all real estate transactions will be subject to a 3.8% sales tax starting January 1, 2013.

          You can check this out for yourself at:

          Michael Moore: ‘Patriotic Americans’ Will Wait Longer for Healthcare

          OBAMASCARE: Dr. Dean predicts companies will drop private health coverage for employees…

          “The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) premised their Obamacare score on the assumption that only 7 percent of employers would drop their employee health plans. If the percentage is closer to the 30 percent, as the McKinsey survey results predict, Obamacare’s price tag would rise by almost $1 trillion.”

          Democratic insider reveals a terrible new detail about “Obamacare”

          • How does taxing medical devices–pacemakers, prosthetic limbs, stenst, and operating tables– reduce the cost of health care?
            The deduction of medical expenses on their 1040 form, to the extent the costs exceed 7.5 percent of adjusted gross income, will now be 10%. how does that reduce costs or improve healthcare?
            The 24 million Americans with Flexible Spending Accounts will face a new federally imposed $2,500 annual cap where there is none now. How does that improve healthcare?
            Under current law, the capital gains tax rate for all Americans rises from 15 to 20 percent in 2013–how does this ensure better healthcare for all?
            The ObamaCare Medicare Payroll Tax increase soaks the employers to the tune of $86 billion over the next ten years–not much room for expansion to those already on a limited budget.
            “””We can ignore reality, but we cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.””” ayn rand

        • Satori: I do not support O’bummer Care. I do support a Universal Health Care Plan (UHCP)for all Americans, including the same for members of Congress.

          Anything above and beyond that Plan that someone (Congress and the Uber Rich) wants, they should pay for out of pocket.

          That doesn’t make me a socialist as Brandon would have US believe. It does make me a realist.

          Big Pharma, Big Medical, and Big Insurance are making obscene profits; much of it paid for by taxpayers, while Americans subsidize drug prices for the rest of the world.

          After all, didn’t O’bummer and McLame both promise US THEIR health care plan if WE would only elect them. Where is it?

          It isn’t O’bummer care.

          What I don’t like about O’bummer Care are the 153 NEW offices and agencies that it will create to administrate it. That’s insanity! In 20 tears you can only imagine the bureaucracy that will evolve from it.

          WE do need a single payer, UHCP in this country to reduce costs and there are credible models in Costa Rica, Panama, France, Canada and other countries. Coincidentally Business Insider (if I remember correctly) recently had an article about global health care quality.

          The USA was way down the list.

          So the propaganda from the LSM and the Uber Rich that WE have a great health care system is correct; but only for them; because only they can afford to pay for health care in America.

          The rest of US suffer, or pay through the nose.

          Fortunately, I have great health (even at my age) and have always had great health. I’m lucky. As a last resort I can always go to VA (LOL). Many are not so fortunate.

          Hammerrun stated that he pays $1200 a month for health care. The average American (51% of all wage earners) makes less than $2500 ($30k a yr) a month before taxes. Deduct $750 for taxes and the average American takes home $1750 a month. Not much left for food (or anything else) after they pay for health insurance.

          America can do better than that. The war in Afghanistan (to spread Crony Capitalism) cost US more than $200 billion a year for the past ten years.

          OUR annual balance of trade deficit with China (to enrich the very rich GB and investment class who stole 33% of the American manufacturing base and shipped it to China) runs in excess of $300 billion a year.

          We subsidize NAFTA for Mexico and Canada more than $125 billion a year. Need I go on?

          America is NOT broke. Not by a long shot. Don’t believe it. Don’t accept it as your own.

          This is the propaganda of the LSM seeking to make US believe that there is no money for US, while there is lots of money for Big Business, Big Banking, Big Pharma, and Big Oil; or start up solar companies.

          American financial resources just need to be redirected from the GB back to the depositors and mortgage holders; from the NWO Globalists of Corporate Fascism, back to the people; from the NWO in China back to Americans.

          The funding required to pay that $200 billion is readily available in any number of ways; the question is: “Are WE going to take care of OURSELVES and OUR own, or are WE going to allow the NWO Corporate Globalists to dictate where OUR tax dollars go?”

          Engage your employees or be broken and impoverished by them. The choice is yours.

          • Universal Health Care??!! Good grief Durango Kidd, you really are a dumb rock. In Canada, it is a great system-IF you have a cold. Just don’t need a heart surgeon. In the UK and France, no people don’t die in the streets. They die waiting in hospitals for a doctor. We have come so far in medicine in the US-and now to have it all stripped away. Medicine in this country was/is becoming much more personal-hence the many cancer drugs, especially breast cancer, that target certain cancers by DNA structure. Think that is going to continue? There was a reason that Linda McCartney got herself to NYC when she found out that she had breast cancer. In the UK, they do not treat breast cancer. They may give you radiation, or a partial mastectomy; but if you are over 35 your treatment is more likely to be some pills to help the pain, and buck up. Universal Healthcare is all based on NOT SPENDING $$$$!
            Medicine is an art and a science. Not every person who manages to regurgitate enough memorization to be licensed should be a doctor or nurse. Most are dedicated beyond belief. And they deserve to be paid for the sacrifices that they made: 4 years of college, 5 years of internship, 6 additional years to be a surgeon, and if you want to be Board Certified (which is a big deal) that is an additional 2 years. So, you are nearly 40 and have hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans and guess what? Now, you can make a living.
            When you or your family member is looking at death’s door, you won’t quibble on what the doctor is charging you.Funny how that works. Doctors and Nurses preform everyday miracles-and it is awesome to watch. I will pay a doctor $200,000 a year anytime over those spineless, lying, cheating politicians any day.
            Beware-Obamacare is going to give all of us the worst medicine we can imagine. But Nancy Pelosi, George Clooney, et al will still be provided the best of everything.

            • SS: Of course Linda McCartney came to America for medical treatment. OUR health care system is the best in the world for the Uber Rich who can afford to pay the tab. A lot of good it did her though … she’s dead, or haven’t you noticed?

              For the rest of US citizens it is a ticket to bankruptcy court while Congress possesses a cadillac health care plan at OUR expense. Why should they be special? Its OUR money!

              Even the King of Saudi Arabia came to Phoenix years ago to be treated at St Joe’s Hospital and he could have gone anywhere in the world for treatment.

              And of course the illegals come to America to be treated too, at a cost of over $100 billion in health care freebies alone. That cost is picked up by taxpayers and the middle class who can afford to purchase health insurance; which is another reason why health care costs are so high.

              As for your “cancer breakthroughs” you need to understand that 75% of the oncologists in this country will not, themselves, submit to chemotherapy, yet they will prescribe it for YOU!

              Why not?

              The reason that cancer therapies are becoming personal after 50 years of the American Cancer Society/FDA/NIA BULLSHIT is that Susanne Sommers exposed the cancer treatment industry of Big Pharma and Big Insurance as a FRAUD in her best seller: KNOCKOUT.

              Read it.

              It was the Alternative Medicine Pioneers, INDIVIDUALS, who bucked traditional medicine and effected treatments with CURES against the wishes of the FDA and the Lobbyists for Big Pharma; not the AMA who found these new therapies.

              The AMA has jumped on board kicking and screaming all the way because INDIVIDUAL pioneers have paved the way, usually at great personal and professional cost.

              It wasn’t OUR best medical schools taking the lead and making these discoveries; it was courageous INDIVIDUAL doctors who followed their oath in face of criticism, and legal proceedings from the FDA, NIA, and AMA who made these discoveries and developed these therapies.

              You clearly don’t have a fucking clue about the medical industry in America or any knowledge of what is the standard of practice offshore.

              Do yourself a favor and educate yourself about it before showing your ignorance.

        • Another reason I am opposed to Obamacare.

          Obamacare Will Affect Gun Ownership

          “One of the thousands of aspects of the Patient Protection and Affordable Healthcare Act is the electronic centralization of everyone’s medical records into a one huge databank.

          Supposedly, only medical professionals will have access to this information, but you and I both know that a number of government agencies will also have access to it.”

          “That same database of personal and medical information can and probably will be used in the future by agencies like the FBI when they do background checks for gun applications.

          The FBI will access your personal medical records to look for conditions like post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) that they can use to deny the application to purchase a firearm.

          According to a report published by Gun Owners of America, the Veterans Administration has already used this information to block the Second Amendment right of over 150,000 veterans to bear arms.

          With all of the effort being made by the Obama administration to prevent Americans from owning guns, you can bet your bottom dollar that they will use your private information against you any way they can to prevent you from purchasing any more guns.

          Therefore, my advice to you is to buy as many guns and as much ammunition as you can now and be ready to use them if need be to protect you and your family’s wellbeing in the upcoming Depression and government collapse.”


          • @KY MOM—-Wow,that would be a bitch,get sent to a wasteland from Hell to fight for the FEDS,(they’re not fightin to keep us SAFE,they’re just pissin th Ragheads off and making them want to come over here with their MAYHEM to get even with the FEDS.!!)And when you return home ,thinking you did the “Right Thing”for your country,are told you can no longer own a FIREARM!You might realize you’ve been HAD by your GOV’T.!! I won’t print what it would make me want to do! Maybe rent a BIG Truck………

      9. Obamacare gives a great deal of power to insurance companies. As a health care provider (if I were going to continue practicing, which I won’t) I would see my reimbursement decline, my paperwork increase, and the forced implementation of electronic health records (less patient privacy and less efficient recordkeeping). More employees would be needed to manage all the regulations.
        As a patient, I expect higher premiums, higher medication costs, more treatment denials and less overall choice. This is already occurring in Massachusetts.

        • Merree, the insurance companies won’t gain power. The gov’t gains the power and will dictate insurance companies’ profits. We will all see many insurace companies go belly up, because many will rather be fined by the gov’t than pay higher primiums.

      10. “As a patient, I expect higher premiums, higher medication costs, more treatment denials and less overall choice. This is already occurring in Massachusetts”

        all of these have been happening for quite some time now
        LONG before Obamacare was even a glimmer in Obama’s eye
        and as for “denial of treatment” ??
        I’ve been involved in health care for decades
        that’s something I’ve never seen

        • Well, I haven’t given any thumbs down. Your questions are valid and many people have them.

          I am surprised that you have not seen any denial of treatment. I certainly have. For example, I had a patient that had a rare disease that only responded to one specific medication. Initially the insurance company refused to pay for this treatment (it costs thousands of dollars per month in the US but only hundreds per month from overseas). We ended up sending letters to people in Congress and the State Insurance Comissioner and after several rounds of letters, the company agreed to cover payment. That was until the beginning of the next year, when they once again began saying that they would not cover the treatment. My patient saw this as having the potential of being a yearly battle and dropped the insurance and decided to pay out of pocket. She would not be allowed to do that under Obamacare.

          When I was a regional manager for an HMO, the corporate directors would tell me to deny care for minor reasons. They reasoned that most doctors would not fight the system and would not continue resubmitting until an approval came through. This was very effective at decreasing testing and surgeries. They also said to deny surgery if someone was due to switch to another insurance soon in order to move the costs to someone else. I did not last long with that employer because I wasn’t good at following instructions and I was not a team player. (At least for their team.)

          It is true that premiums have been escalating and the cost of medications have been escalating, even without Obamacare. However, according to medical people I know in Massachusetts, the rate of increase of these items began to escalate even faster under Romneycare (the model for Obamacare) compared to other states. It was proposed as a way to make care more affordable but this did not happen.

          As a health care provider, I tried my own experiment in affordable care. I decided to provide an office visit for a flat $55 fee. No insurance. I also do labwork for what the lab charges me plus a 20% handling fee- which is cheaper than what is charged anywhere else. (I have even joked about being willing to see patients for the same fees they would have been charged in the thirties- $2- if I was paid in dimes from the same time period).This as been a complete failure. Once people hear they are expected to pay for care themselves, they don’t show up. I have had approximately 20 patients willing to do things this way during a five year period.

          One of the key components of Obamacare is based on cutting Medicare/Medicaid payments to doctors by 25%. Do you think any of our overhead expenses have decreased by 25%? This payment cut has been threatened by Congress every year for a very long time. Each time it gets delayed. Either this cut will eventually be passed (maybe by executive order) or there will be insufficient funding for the items legislated by Obamacare.

          Every business has a basic unit that is what generates income. In medicine, this is a provider (doctor, nurse, therapist, etc) seeing a patient. Every other person in the loop (adminitrators, insurance employees, government employees, ..) feed off of this basic unit.

          The basic problem with our health care system is this basic unit supports a huge pyramid of paperwork that serves no purpose beyond maintaining this system. Obamacare grows this pyramid even larger. The question that remains is: how many more non-productive blocks can be added to this pyramid before the entire structure topples under its inherent instability?

          • I understand your my last town, there is a clinic..$100 when walking through the door.
            I was thrilled; I have occasional sinus infections and when it’s nighttime, dr office is closed, ER is not an option.

          • Merree, Since you are an M.D.,I would like to hear your thoughts on some observations.

            All the talk seems to be about “health insurance”, when “health care” seems to be the issue.
            I am not that old, and can remember when you did not need health insurance to get health care. We didn’t go to the Doc for every sniffle, and I remember Mom taking us to a clinic. And the services were paid for out of pocket, or on a payment plan.

            It seems at some point, the “business” of being a doctor was corrupted and overpowered by some force.
            Was it Government with Medicaid/Medicare?
            Was it telling the hospitals they coundn’t turn anyone away, and when did that start?
            Was it businesses using health insurance as a way to compensate employees in a tax advantaged way?
            And did these employees, because they now had “free” health care, overuse the system? Take away market forces, etc.,etc. If it’s free, why not?

            And lastly, would you agree/disagree that a good system would have people pay out of pocket, for say the first $3-5000.00, and maintain a catastrophic plan to cover the really big events?

            Just seems a Doc should be able to start a practice, run it his/her way, and not have to pay $250,000.00++ a year for malpractice insurance.

          • If you are willing to offer such a generous service as a cash clinic, may I suggest moving near amish or mennonite communities. Ohio, Indiana, KY, TN, Penn, etc.;they would gladly accept your clinic, and you’d be near natural “preppers”. Looks like a win-win situation there.

          • thanks for your response merree
            VERY insightful

            I do have to qualify slightly my statement that I have seen no denial of care
            I did see a case or two where insurance companies,not Medicare or Medicaid refused to pay for a treatment
            the facility I work at provided that treatment anyway and just ate the cost

            I like your idea about people having to pay for some of their care upfront
            it does seem to discourage people from getting unnecessary care

            there is another side to things I find interesting
            recently I was at my doc’s urgent care clinic with a bout of diverticulitis,they really pressured me to get a CT scan at a cost of close to $3000, I refused,I have had diverticulitis before and knew that I had caught it early,my white count was normal and I was not running a temp so I knew the chance of an abscess was pretty low at this time,I finally convinced them to put me on flagyl and cipro, I promised to come back if I spiked a temp or had other signs of a developing abscess,they werent happy but they agreed, I also was due for a cholesterol check,they were drawing blood anyway so I wanted that run at the same time,they absolutely refused !!! now I get to make another Dr appointment and get to get stuck with a needle again WTF ???

            health care is a MESS
            I dont know what the answer is

            and don’t get me started on the paperwork issue
            dear God in heaven !!!

        • for you legion of red thumbers
          let me correct my post

          what I meant to say is
          premiums have been going down for years
          medication costs have been going down for years
          treatment denials (usually by some clerk in an insurance office)
          have been going down for years
          and there has been more choice not less

          sorry for my mistakes
          now lets see the green thumbs
          YEAH !!!!!

      11. I just received this..

        Wise Words from a Stockbroker….Edward Jones:

        When asked about what to buy, this stockbroker said:

        “If the current government is in office much longer, canned goods, a generator, water and ammunition are your best investment.”

        • he forgot to add
          if Romney is elected ” canned goods,
          a generator, water and ammunition are your best investment.”

          meet the new boss
          SAME as the old boss

          this whole mess is going down
          no matter who is in charge
          which is the banksters and Wall Street by the way

          “TGR: Finally, what is your investment model?

          DS: My investing model is ABCD: Anything Bernanke Cannot Destroy: flashlight batteries, canned beans, bottled water, gold, a cabin in the mountains.”

          • If the this is true, in your thinking, why do you care about Obamacare.

            I think you like Obamacare as you think it will ‘keep you paid’ – you said you work in the field. There would be no other logical reason to like it.

            If a person cant afford health insurance, How in the hell are they going to pay a tax for not buying health insurance.
            The end result is the people who can afford health insurance will pay way more to cover the people who can’t afford health insurance.

            Enjoy your new tax !!

          • I agree JayJay. I find that storing food is the best investment. Wheat went up 75% last year alone, have you looked at the price of bread recently? And with all the fires and draught in the midwest, watch the price of bread next year!

            Alot of us think we’re prepping for economic collapse, but how many of us are prepping for weather catastophes?


            • too true

              the Dak canned hams I bought last year
              have went from $2.54 to $3.82

              beans used to be 2 lbs for a $1
              now its one lb for $1.09

              my net worth has increased substantially !!!

      12. The scariest thing about all of this is that there is no where left to go. This is it the last bastion. We have slowly and methodically been infiltrated and surrounded by these parasites and they have finally worked their way into the top echelons of power. They are playing their hand now and unfortunately it seems to me that there are more of them now than us. A long dark road lies ahead.

        • As Far as I know. we outnumber the Traitors 3 to 1. but that is not the 46Mil on the GovT Teet..Its going to be a long hard slugfest, but we will Win..I have no doubt the Silent Majority, will not be Silent Much Longer!

          Had enuff yet?

          Semper Fi

      13. For what it’s worth, I heard that the fines, I mean taxes that will be issued if you refuse to sign up for Obamacare cannot be legally enforced. By that I mean that criminal charges cannot be filed (as with refusal to pay state and federal taxes can result in) or liens against one’s property be issued. The gubment can, however, take what you owe if you get a tax refund after filing each year. Wanted to get the word out. Apparantly, the IRS will send a “strongly worded” memo to anyone who refuses to pay, and should not be taken as threats of legal action.

        • I think the IRS will convince most people to roll over for them. The interesting battle will be from individual states that will protest expanding state funded health programs. I will be curious if it is nothing more than political posturing, or if govenors will stand their ground. It will also be interesting to see how residents of the states that refuse to comply with fed mandates act when something like lose of highway funding happens.

          This is nothing more than a bump in the road on the way to the cliff. I am not concerned about the bump, just will continue to prepare for the cliff.

        • But, this fine, I mean tax, I’d bet is already in the tax forms for 2012.

      14. @ Satori…for openers it forces me to pay money I don’t have. Second, it forces me to pay money I don’t have…and thirdly…it forces me to pay money I don’t have.

        that about sum it up? :>)

        • It forces me to pay money I don’t want to.

          • Jeff: I just read your discourse with appalation mamma and thought back to our conversation on the privious page and then went over you boasting about your families ties to pharma, nursing, and healthcare industry. Something came to mind.

            You are a silver spoon fed Dick.

            Make sure anytime you are railing against anyone less fortunate than you that you tell them you are an angry old man who grew up in shadows of a doctor only to become a nurse. Make sure you tell them that you have sucked off the same system that is broken for 40 years. Make sure you tell them that you made your money off their less fortunate back while you sit in your tower judging them.

            Don’t worry about ever running into me, where I drink they don’t serve appletinis and you probably wouldn’t find room with all the stock trailers and trucks to park your audi. I drink with men. You wouldn’t last long without having a spur rowel run up the side of your face.

            Don’t you ever pass judgement on someone less fortunate without thinking how easily you could walk their path.

            You are digusting.

            • You nailed it, Saddle Up.

              I understand he has a rather crooked & perverted side regarding the opposite sex also.
              You know how it is.
              Word travels fast around here, especially behind the scenes.

              Temper & self-control problems, Jeff?
              Watch your step sonny, some here are onto you.

            • Jeff Davis: You need to apologize to appalachian mamma for what you said to her. You no more know her situation than I do and she deserved the benefit of the doubt. Just imagine how she felt the first time she walked into that office admitting utter defeat and asking for help. Put yourself in her shoes for just that few minutes. To kick a person while their are down and you are up is just plain wrong.
              Part of being a man is admitting when we are wrong. It isn’t a pleasant part since we are prideful creatures but it is an important part.

      15. @KY mom….awsome post….my thoughts exactly :>)

      16. @ Brandon…very well writen article.

      17. bottom line is this

        health care in this country is in CRISIS mode

        it CANNOT continue as it is

        every year it consumes more and more of our GDP
        and gives us less and less in return

        60% of bankruptcies by people like us are due to medical bils
        and most of these people had insurance
        WTF ????

        I have not stated my position on Obamacare

        I do say this

        we HAVE to do something
        and SOON

        if anyone here has a better idea
        lets hear it

        the collapse of the healthcare system is something that will adversely affect us all

        if YOU have the answer
        quit holding back

        • stupid lawsuits are the reason for the price of healthcare.
          somebody ALWAYS wants somthing fo nothing.
          get rid of the liberal corrupt judges and start throwing out retarded suits , and liability rates will return to a sane level.

          NATIONAL HEALTHCARE IS SOCIALISM and that is a HARD fact.

          • lawsuits and Medicaid and Medicare. Corruption has been rampant for a long time and no one does anything about it!
            Even though they are aware of it. My best friend is a nurse and she believes Obamacare will force her to leave the industry. Her suggestion: Post prices for procedures in the doctor’s office. If people knew what they were being charged they could make the decision on where they wanted to “do business”. Competition! Ever notice how cheap Lasik surgery has become? Why? because they started competing on price!

          • Hammerhead,
            (As a Medical Worker of almost 40 years, I can say)


          • Like a suggesion earlier?? You lose, you pay all costs and your attorney fees??

        • TORT REFORM.

        • There has to be a shift in thinking. From average people to Big Ins. to Big Pharma.

          There is no incentive for Big Pharma companies to cure anything. They will make meds that will allow me to live a relatively normal life as long as I continue to take them.
          There is no incentive for insurance companies to streamline their process. The more paperwork they send out the better chance for loopholes. Thanks lawyers.

          The average person needs to toughen the hell up. Everyone seems to be taking pills right now because they cannot pay attention, can’t sleep, or cant stay awake. I sneezed this morning so I had better get to the ER. If you are sick, first make sure it warrants a trip to the doctor. If all I have to pay is $10 for the visit, there is not really a strong argument to not have that little sniffle checked out. Hell most guys that complain about a pulled groin go to the doctor. First make sure that it isn’t just a sprained vagina.

          The answer isn’t in legislation. It is in a shift in entitlement thought process.

          • whoa
            good post

            big pharma doesn’t make money on well people
            it makes $$$$ on sick people
            and your right
            people want a pill for everything these days
            thats how we have been trained from birth
            instant gratification
            don’t exercise,take a pill
            don’t eat right to lose weight,take a pill
            TV ad’s are full of pharmaceutical companies selling you something
            and it is not good health

            and then of course there is the outright fraud
            as evidenced by the recent GLAXO case
            just the tip of the iceberg baby
            just the tip of the iceberg


            Have you ever stood in an O.R. for 36 hours straight? What Medical school, or school of Nursing did you attend.

            I’ve been an R.N for 40 years, married to a R.N. for 31 years. My Mom was an RN, and my Dad an MD. All 5 of my sisters are RN’s. My Brother a Doctor. Everyone on my wife’s side are RN’s too.

            My wife has sold medical items for 16 years. I sold Pharma for 8.

            So I think I know what I’m saying when I say, You are full of Crap!

        • 1) Put a cap on medical malpractice lawsuits.
          ( Johns Hopkins, arguably one of the finest medical institutions in the WORLD, just lost a $55 million lawsuit. I don’t even care about the case, but $ 5 million to the plaintiff and $50 million for sick people seems like a good start. Oh, and F**k the lawyers)

          2) Insurance across state lines. Competition. Competition. Competition.

          3) Slowly phase out Medicare/ Medicade. Get the Government as far away as possible. ( what if every business was operated like the MVA?)

          As an aside; If I could operate a Motor Vehicle Administation facility, you would want to renew you tags every six months, in person. It would be like going to a Bass Pro, with a Starbucks inside. No alcohol, sorry.
          For the gals, a salon and a carwash. Various big screens, play area for the kids. And a captive market to boot. I can dream.

          4) This one is VERY controversial, but I like it. A 2 tiered medical system. You want gov care, or free care, go to their fine facility. At least make it legal for a doctor/doctors to set up their own elite, private healthcare business. Why should hard working ,sucessful people be forced into your substandard shitholes. Hell, what’s the point of working hard, saving or being responsible if you can’t reward youself with privlidges?
          Thats the incentive. That’s what they are taking away.

          5)I don’t have anymore. I’m a know-it-all, not an expert.

        • Satori,

          Obamacare takes health care from bad to worse.

          I do not see where it corrects the problems. It just creates additional problems.

          KY Mom

          • KY Mom

            I tend to agree

            when the full provisions kick at year 2014
            it could be a real mess

            but at any rate the system is heading for collapse

        • I have the answer — Let each state take care of health care.

          If you dont like what your state does – move to another state.

          FedGov has no business in this mess

        • Exercise.

          Eat wholesome foods.

          Supplement with vitamins.


          It’s easy. I have an 87 year old neighbor, a veteran, and he has never used any VA benefits.

      18. First of all BO care will not work, there is no money for it. A totally state run medical system probably would not work. The medical syatem right now is absolutewly not working, it is an absolute shame. People right now are dying because of the ridiculous rates of treatment in this country. The profit that is made right now in health care is unbelievable. I will say this again and again, because I believe this completely, that a true healer is absolutely not into the big money that is made. You cannot call ANYONE a healer that makes money like a CEO, NEVER.

        I know there are a lot of people out there that want to heal and help, these are the saints. Those that get into the medical professions for the wonderful money are parasites, grubby little vampires. NO ONE that has a conscience can benefit from another being ill unless they are pure leeches. The fact that so many answer, “why have you gotten into the health care field?”, the money is a very common answer. Defintion of a parasite; an animal or plant living in or on another organism, usually to its harm. This describes perfectly the suffering so many go through with the outrageous bills they get for getting well.

        Now that said, that the U.S. health care system is awful beyond words because of those making huge profits from those that are sick, now BO care is only going to add to this. Now insurance companies, pharm compaines, and other in the loop can now milk not only the sick, but also the taxpayers. It is like now a mafia run business after BO care goes into effect.

        You know what is so pathetic is that if there was no debt and taxes were similar to right now, there would be money for a state run medical system that would take the profit out of healing. People could get well with the taxes they pay right now. Forget that though, 16 and 1/4 trillion and growing.

        This country is beginning to mirror the last days of Rome in so many ways it is scary. BO should change his name from obama to Nero.

        • Since the Senate Passed Comprehensive Postal Reform, the Postal Service has Lost $1,773,042,505….
          $6,500,000,000 Total FY 2012 Postal Service Losses So Far
          $25,000,000 What the Postal Service Loses Each Day
          A govt entity…and we trust them to not screw up healthcare??

          • That “Postal Reform” forced on the profitable Non taxpayer funded USPS by Republicans that wanted to kill it, Requires that they fund it 75 years into the future in a ten year time frame.

            You didn’t know that and you also didn’t know that ALL costs of the USPO is funded by Stamp Sales.
            NOT by your Taxes.

            Please don’t be so Mis-Informed.

      19. Can someone explain to me what the single payer system is? I am still trying to figure this mess out in my own mind…. Thanx.

        • Equally substandard healthcare for all.

          ( except the politicians, you don’t think they’ll be using this shit, do you?)

      20. well said Be Informed


        what do we do ??

        we KNOW the system is heading for collapse

        can it be avoided ?????

        is Obamacare the fix ??
        certainly doesn’t look like it
        so for all you who have spoken so passionately against it

        what is YOUR answer

        come on
        don’t be shy

        the country is waiting

        • @ Satori. The first course of action I would do to save the country is immediately cut off all trade with countries that are the enemy like China, then I would cut off all trade to countries that are not at least equal in status to the country. Third world countries employ salve labour and take away American jobs. A country like Canada that is somewhat equal to the U.S. will not siphon off jobs. Free trade would never be to countries the are poorer than the U.S. NEVER. I don’t care about cheaper products, I care about jobs. Good paying jobs adds to the economy and the tax base to pay off the debt.

          Next I would put a limit on how much can be charged for Pharmaceuticals. Business would be allowed to charge what they can for a product, healing medicines are not a product to be made enormous amounts of money from. These pharm parasites would charge millions of dollars for the cure to cancer if they could, ONLY the elists could get well.

          Next I would get rid of the party system. Every politican elected would be elected, hopefully, on their commitment to ONLY the REAL boss, THE PEOPLE, like it was meant to be in the firstplace.

          I would raise the tax on the rich like no tomorrow, BUT I would allow them all sorts of deductions in 100% investments into job creations in the U.S. ONLY. Incentives to save THEIR country.

          I would cut across the board all the unnecessary expenses. For one thing I would allow the illegals to stay in the country on one conditon, that they help to rebuild the infrastructure that is crumbling like an old wodden bridge.

          In other words IF I could do things, it would be totally common sense based on one nation, not other nations unless they would benefit this country, ONLY.

          Of common horse sense was gone a long time ago. People cannot any longer see past their own immediate needs. People cannot see how to rebuild because it might mean more expensive goods, but in trade a lot better paying jobs to pay the difference in costs and then some.

          Ideas I have, but most of the people would never accept them because it would take something that most people have lost, the desire to think past their own self absorped lives and what is best for everyone in the country, including themselves.

          • ok now we’re cookin’ with gas

            the pharmaceutical companies are ripping us off right and left
            we pay more for drugs than any other country
            the politicians on both sides are OWNED by big business
            way past time for term limits
            if its good enough for the Presidency its good enough for Senators and Reps —this is a big part of the problem,the parasites get in and ya cant get them out
            overall waste in the Federal budget
            holy crap
            its beyond astronomical

            good ideas
            keep ’em coming

            • So Big Pharm is making some money; isn’t that what a capitalist does – make money.

              Hey since you like the socialist version so well how many drugs were invented in Canada in the last 20 years? You have lots of answers I’ll await that one.

            • I was looking at what Jim wrote, and myself understand what is suppose to drive capitalism, greed. It works sometimes, and other times capitalism allows free trade to the enemy (China) that uses that money to modernize their navy, airforce, and more importantly their ICBM force. Big Pharm makes more money than can be fathomed, it really is not just some money, it is money beyond treasure. It is a moral issue that anyone that makes money over making people well is wrong. Getting people psychologically hooked on their dope is evil.

              There are many companies that are Pharmaceutical that have come up with new medicines that have come out of several European countries, namely France big time, along with England, Sweden, Germany, and even Italy. Japan has also come out with new medical break throughs. What comes from the U.S. often has many side effects that require more medication to counteract it. I know plenty of people that have decayed extremely rapidly because of being overly precribed.

              One of the reasons beyond the conspiracy theory that pharm companies do this on purpose, is the research of animals to overly test the products. Animals’ bodies have all sorts of different parameters and testing a human product on an animal for human consumption gives whacked out results. Israel and many other countries have stopped animal testing, not because it is inhumane towards animals, but because it does not make good scientific reason to do so.

              IF the medical science in the United States is so advanced, then why does the U.S. lack so far behind in life expectancy? Check out these numbers as proof.

              Country Male Female in years.
              United States 75.9 80.9
              Australia 79.4 84.4
              Austria 76.9 82.8
              Belgium 76.4 82.8
              Canada 78.8 84.1
              Denmark 76.3 81.1
              Finland 75.8 82.9
              France 78.0 84.5
              Germany 77.8 82.4
              Greece 77.4 82.7
              Iceland 78.7 83.2
              Italy 79.2 84.5
              Japan 80.3 87.2
              South Korea 75.8 82.5
              Liechtenstein 79.3 84.1
              Luxembourg 76.4 83.1
              Malta 77.5 82.1
              Netherlands 78.8 83.0
              New Zealand 78.6 82.7
              Norway 77.5 83.0
              Portugal 75.3 82.0
              Qatar 76.0 80.0
              Singapore 81.3 85.8
              Spain 78.2 84.4
              Sweden 78.8 83.5
              Switzerland 78.2 84.1
              Taiwan 75.5 81.4
              United Kingdom 78.0 82.3

              Let’s see now. 23 countries with higher life expectancy for both genders and 4 countries with at least one that is higher. Other tiny countries like Andorra, Monaco, San Marino also had higher. Cuba was close to the U.S. at 75.5 and 80.1.

              What does this say about the “wonderful” medicine and health care in the U.S. with 27 countries that have longer lifetimes, soome a lot more, 3 tiny countries also? It tells that the health care in the U.S. SUCKS, and I mean it SUCKS swamp water. With BO health care it is only going to get much worse. The U.S. should be in the top 5 at least IF modern medicine was keeping people alive and well longer. It is number 31 if you count those tiny countries and on par with CUBA. That SUCKS!

              “FIGURES DON’T LIE”. Big Pharm and rotten health care is not allowing people to live longer like 30 other countries. On par with CUBA, that proves my point all too well, US health care not only sucks, IT BLOWS!

            • Actually I left out 2 other countries with longer life expectancies than the U.S. with Ireland at 78.0 and 82.6 and Israel at 78.8 and 83.2, it has been a long day. That actually makes the U.S. number 33 if you count those 3 tiny countries. With BO or obummer care, if the world lasts until 2014, the US life expectancy will probably drop to number 50 or lower.

              There are some wonderful strong points of the U.S., healthcare is absolutely not one of them as figures don’t lie. People should be living as least as long as in Greece, a bankrupt country. Anyone that feels healthcare is actually helping people should really look long at these numbers that 32 other countries have longer life times than the U.S. Doctor quack’s dope sure is not helping people to extend their life spans, that is for sure.

          • Be informed for president..if he mandates children attend the school nearest their home.

            • @ JayJay. Children attending school in which they are bussed for 45 minutes one way to and 45 minutes back from takes their toll on children. This equality notion is crazy, it is forcing a child out of their familar surroundings and where their friends are. I say make the school safe and better for these kids in their own neighborhood. Children are way too young to commute when they should be at home studying or just plain at home. Besides this school bussing is quite costly to the taxpayer.

              There was a study done back in the 1970’s on this “forced” daily migration on kids, and almost 90% of those kids didn’t want to be shipped away to some other school. You pack a bunch of black children that are poor and ship them to some mostly white school and the black children feel totally out of place and they stick out and don’t want to be there. Kids like to go where they play and grow up, not to some far away school like some summer camp daily routine. Kids don’t like to ride a hour and half or longer on some bus that are more often than not quite uncomfortable.

              You know JayJay, you bring up something that is very interesting about the common sense that is so lacking in government. Forced integration deeply hurts this country in so many aspects. When someone gets a job just because there has to be a certain number of a certain race over another that is 5 times more qualified for the position, this degraded the entire workplace. Affirmative action has been one of the grandest of failures that there is. Always the best person belongs at a job. When you just have to be a black person, an Indian, a Spanish person, etc. to get hired, there is absolutely no incentive or drive to work hard to do your best. Slacking off and concentrating the work load on others is a result of affirmative action as soon as someone gets in because of it, firing the person is near impossible because of the racist law suits that will occur.

              Again, it is the common sense approach that lacks with this government completely. No logical thought pattern is reasoned out here. It doesn’t matter what race someone is as look as they are a good component of the work force. Logic has long been thought to be cold blooded and without emotion, but most of the time it works. Over emotionalism has lead to laziness and a sick population that has given up the inner drive to thrive for the best that they can be. Lighting a fire under America starts with giving the people a reason to want to rebuild this country and take it from the brink.

              The ONLY way this is going to happen is to bring back good stable and secure employment to everybody, and start manufacturing EVERYTHING right here. Let other countries have Made In China for their citizens to purchase. Made In USA on everything, and stop putting money into the enemy’s hand that go straight into a huge military that will one day kill tens of millions of Americans. Besides that Made In USA products are better quality that last longer.

              Want to start paying off the debt, get people back to work with good paying employment. The taxes don’t have to be raised because when you add 50-100 million people working good paying jobs the money they are now paying into the same tax base, much revenue is generated. Here is the prove. Get 100 million people working for $10 more per hour and that means there is $20800 more dollars per person per year based on a 40 hour week. This is 2 trillion dollars per year extra at a tax rate that most would pay 25%, and you just added 500 billion each year to help pay the debt off. This is done by killing free trade with any country that is not equal or better off economically with the U.S. Some say it can’t be done, watch and see how well it would work. Good paying jobs are the ONLY way to save the U.S., THE ONLY WAY.

      21. The path to entitlements ultimately leads to bankruptcy. FDR won reelection time after time by continuing to blame Hoover and by promising more and more goodies at taxpayer expense.

        •’re preaching to the choir–I taught public for 6 years.
          Affirmative action is as bad as getting the job because mom was head of the dept.
          Also, let’s get back to manufaturing in our state/community..job creation is a plus, but think of the gas saved.
          What’s behind shipping crap 6000 miles to sell for a dollar?? Something is fishy there. Really smelly!!! And it’d benefit this country’s patriots to consider the gas saved, not only the creation of jobs..when the language gets to gas conservation, my FIRST thought goes to the shipment of those products 6000 miles—it boggles the mind the incentive to give us cheap products at the cost of billions of dollars in gas.

      22. I’m gonna make friends with a local doctor…maybe offer to mow his/hers lawn for free. Maybe they will remember my generosity when there is a 3 month wait to get an appointment….

      23. Socialized Medicine already exists in AmeriKa!


        Its a Massive PONZI Failure! VA DOCS PAID 3X THE NORM $$$ $189,000 , TO KILL , GIVE VETS SUBSTANDARD CORPORATE SANCTIONED DIRECTED PHARMA CARE , Veterans are bein Intentionally Poisoned , Killed DESTROYED by the VA with ARSENIC LACED Drugs made in ISRAEL! DRUGS MADE IN ISRAEL! WTF!!!


        The V.A. is where Veterans go to Die !!!

        PUCK DA’ FEDGOV V.A. !!!





      24. ok come on peeps
        quit holding back

        its fine to rant and rave and complain about something
        but if you don’t have any solid answers yourselves

        its like someone showing up at a church potluck
        and instead of bringing a covered dish to share with everyone
        you show up with a fork in one hand,a knife in the other
        and big sloppy bib
        and then you proceed to take double helpings of everything

        the groupthink seems to be

        now lets start hearing some solutions

        otherwise you are just like a mad monkey at the zoo
        flinging your poo through the bars

        lets start hearing a little critical thinking

        • SATORI- how much do you earn as a government paid instigator troll ?

          it would seem that YOU are the one not critically thinking.
          do you have anything to support your beloved obamacare?
          you asked for reasons it was NOT a good bill.

          • hammerhead
            with all due respect
            I have not come out in favor of Obama care
            if anything my remarks about it have been on the negative side

            I am merely attempting to get people to talk about a very serious issue in a thoughtful critical respectful manner

            my sincerest apologies if that goes against the philosophy and purpose of this forum

            Obamacare does contain some provisions I like
            however taken as a whole
            I think the bill is greatly flawed
            and we would be better off without it

        • Every man for himself. Just like the caveman, you produce you live. You are a slouch or infirmed you die. This can not continue forever.

          Like it or not that is the way it is intended. Now that we have sick people on all kinds of crappy drugs and machines it is only of a matter of time before there is a super bug that kills many.

          You need a transplant at 80, too bad. At 20 OK. I am not a young-in anymore so I am getting to the point where I could enter the not needed category anymore. There is only so much to go round but people fail to realize it or are afraid of the reaction of others for even saying it.

          I expect a whack of thumbs down from people who are sick or know someone who is sick. Just like Cancer cells the sick will take down us all monetarily.

          • Gravlore, Here is one that gets them twisted in a Gordian Knot;

            Your the Captain of a ship. It’s good to be a captain. You are a GOD. (people who have sailed will know what I mean).
            You, and you alone are responsible for the ship, crew and cargo.
            The ship goes down ( it happens), and you find youself on a lifeboat with enough provisions to sustain 20 men for a reasonable period of time.

            But there are 30 men in and clinging to the boat. You, as the Captain, need to immediatley rectify this situation. You have two choices; 30 die, done. Or, 10 are sacrificed so that 20 may have a fighting chance.
            Who would want to be the Captain now? Who could be the Captain? Cold do-do, but this is sometimes what is required of a leader, and why many don’t qualify.

        • Did you skip to the bottom without reading all the posts? I read several good suggestions the bottom line being that regardless of past or future promises, we have to be responsible for ourselves regarding healthcare just as in ever other aspect of our lives.

          • ok
            now just what does that mean
            in practical terms ??

            sure you can eat healthy,exercise etc etc etc
            but still have a heart attack
            I know
            I did
            pisses me off big time when I think of all those salads I ate
            Ha Ha Ha
            and yes you can have low cholesterol and still have a heart attack

            bottom line
            virtually 100% of the population will require health care sooner or later
            stuff wears out
            or you get into an accident

            • let us all not forget , car insurance pays for car accidents.
              will this change that law ? and allow car rates to come down? HELL NO !


        • The government created the problem in all kinds of ways. The best thing they could do to fix healthcare is to eliminate pain and suffering awards in lawsuits or at least limit them. Multi-million dollar lawsuit awards are making doctor’s malpractice insurance way too high. They also need to stop lawyers from getting a third of all lawsuit awards.

          Socialized medicine has been a nightmare for the UK. Anybody who’s studied it knows how bad it is.

        • Right now, many have health insurance that is akin to having car insurance that pays for oil changes and tire rotation. In 2010 I had bursitis surgery. I was basically forced to take a pair of crutches right after I was told that it was fine to walk without them as long as I was wearing the rather expensive brace that immobilized my knee (could have been done with 1x2s and tape). I used the crutches for less than 10 minutes total. They made it clear that they didn’t want them back. Cooties, I guess.

      25. thank you for this well written and informative article. Personally i agree with many of the posts i have seen here that said that our country is already in bad shape because of the socialistic programs that are being taken advantage of in this country.
        It is pretty bad that there are people out there begging for entitlement programs instead of working to make there lives better. A normal person gets a job and makes there life better for them self. But i guess that is not true in american any more. Working for what you want in life is no more. You just get others to give it to you.

        I have seen these people every day, and the saddest part is that they are living better that me, and i work 2 to 3 jobs plus side jobs just to survive and support my family. It makes me sick every day especially when i see them teaching there children the same things. I was at a sporting event tailgating with some friends to see the local little league teams walking around with there parents begging for handouts from everyone. This bothers me so much because these kids can be selling something to raise money, washing cars, or running a 50/50 but no there parents are teaching them just to walk around with a hat or bucket in there hand to beg for cash. And in most cases it gets better because they are all walking around in brand new Nikes and custom UnderArmer jerseys.

        But hey since i actually work for what i have its no bother to support everyone else who does not want to work. Right?

        Working Americans should just support everyone that what this socialist government is telling us at least.

        I sure hope he does not get reelected, this place is becoming a shitter now i cant wait for 4 more years of Obamas change. Obama care what a joke. Another way for me to have to work more to support more dead beats.

      26. 1.1 trillion in Canada? Where did this ‘author’ dig up that crap. We are at 586 Billion federally. And America’s federal is about 15.8 trillion now.

        “Canada’s combined federal and provincial net debt will pass $1.1 trillion at 11 p.m. ET on October 3, according to a recent calculation. ”

        Americas state debt is 1.1 trillion.

      27. But socialism has to eventually work, if you try it long enough. Right?

      28. Off topic but I need some advice/counsel from the members of this group.

        I have just recently “woke up” and started prepping and I feel that I am so far behind and I get discouraged.

        I have to travel Monday – Thursday for my job and only have the weekends to prep. I feel that whatever is “coming” is getting close and I feel so far behind.

        What advice can you offer me to help me prepare as quickly as possible?

        Thanks in advance for your help.

        • Southern Gal thanks for the thread drift
          we can all use a breather !!1

          RULE #1 don’t panic
          you’ve already made the decision to start prepping
          and thats the most important prep of all

          start with the basics
          how secure is your water supply ?
          do you need to store water
          or do would a filter of some type be better because you have a reliable source nearby ?
          for me its a combination of both
          I have 6 months stored and a creek across the road

          what about food
          a well stocked pantry with canned and dry goods is a must
          how long could you go RIGHT NOW if the stores closed ??

          adding freeze dried and superpails of rice and grains can cost $$$
          but should be included at some point
          you can buy these a a case or one pail at a time from Costco or Sams Club,shipping is fairly reasonable

          I’ll let the others pick up the ball from here

          one book I can highly recommend is put out by the Mormons
          the LDS manual is available for purchase at cost or free download
          it is interspersed with Mormon theology but is quite an excellent resource for anyone

          • Thank you Satori!

            Glad you stated #1…as you can tell, I am starting to panic.

            Water supply: Live in the country and have our own well. It has never run dry but there is a creek just down the road and can access it for water if need be.

            Food: I am starting to stock food. Unfortunately I have limited space in my home. I probably have a three month suppy at this point. Every payday, I am adding to the stock with canned and dry goods.

            Thank you for the advice on the book from the Mormons. I will definately look it up.

            • Southern Gal- I posted my first reply before I saw this. The simple stuff I mentioned you already have covered. Great! You’re 3 steps ahead of the other 290 million people in America. Keep at it and don’t let anything get you down.

            • Do not forget ramen noodles and beef/chicken bouillon cubes..could save your life some day.
              Cheap + boiled water for only 3 minutes to prepare–a win-win!

          • There is a good site called food storage made easy dot NET. the girls there will walk you thru prepping in babysteps. They run practice drills once a year – you’ll get a “situation” for the day (i.e. power is out and now what) usually in September. It is free, and taught in a women’s perspective. The only thing they don’t address is firearms. But you have lots of great resources right here in the archives for that!

            And DON’T PANIC. One or two items a week adds up quickly. Just be consistant.

            • afterthought – They also have great tips on how to store preps if you have limited space. There are recipies and videos of cooking with preps.

        • Of course, if the Klingons invade tomorrow, this is sure gonna look stupid…

          Southern Gal- Satori offers some good advice. Go with the basics. Water, dry storable food, household supplies like soap, tp and bandaids. Keep it real simple at first and the rest will begin to fall into place. Plus, give yourself an easy target of perhaps $10 to $20 a week to start.
          As for food, I’d suggest dry beans, rice and dry noodles for starters. Store them in clean, dry, air-tight containers. (I use mason jars and those plastic gallon size jugs from the dollar stores- but make sure the lids fit tight) And it’s perfectly fine to buy only a pound or two a week if that’s what fits your budget.
          Add in some extra canned food when you find your favorites on sale. Even 2 or 3 extra cans each shopping trip will add up. And some spices (you can find those cheap at the dollar stores too).
          Prepping can be overwhelming, especially when we first get started. But the odds are in our favor that we still have time to get lots of things squared away before we see anything like chaos in the streets. As for the solar panels, generators, a dozen weapons and the bunker in the backyard- forget all that for now. Thinking you have to get up to speed with those who’ve been at it for years is what leads to anxiety. I’ve been through that myself. (as have most preppers).
          Prep slowly and consistently, knowing that tomorrow will be much like today, and the day after will be the same. In spite of what some of the more paranoid would say, I think we still have LOTS of slow grinding down to go before we fall off the cliff politically or economically. Oh no! I’m starting to sound like Rich99. Help!

        • Besides food, paper and hygiene products, think about soaring electric costs, rolling blackouts, brownouts. Even places in Georgia will have cool nights in winter. Propane catalytic heaters (Electric Start is ok if it also has Match Start)and 1# propane cylinders are affordable to cheap. Coleman heaters are on eBay all the time for about $50 each. 12v deep cycle batteries, inverters (google for how to use)and generators (can be small crank type) to charge electronics. Larger generators, gas (store w/Stabil)to keep freezers or fridge working. Butane stoves, charcoal and a grill, some way to cook. Look up Wonder Boxes or Wonder Pillows. These are ways to bring a pot of soup or stew to a temperature hot enough to function as a slow cooker after just bringing the pot to a rolling boil. That saves energy and allows you to cook without heating up your home. Low wattage fans to use w/the generator. 12v cheap bilge pumps if you live where basement flooding can happen. Cheap $5 camping lanterns and batteries. You can store batteries in the freezer to extend life. 120-hr hurricane candles in tall heavy glass holders.

          Look at the mess after the windstorm on the East Coast and think of ways to survive and be as comfortable as possible in such conditions. As this heat wave proves: water is essential. RV, boat and camping stores have a lot of things that are useful.

          A well or access to a close-by spring, especially in drought conditions, is vital. Do a search on the double pot vegetable cooler used in some African countries. It isn’t a refrigerator, but it will keep produce cool and extend its life. A shaded veranda with windows on all sides is comfortable in this sort of weather in a hot, humid climate. Bamboo blinds block sun and let a breeze through, as do plastic screen-type porch screens, which can be found in large sizes. If you have the freezer space and advance warning, you can freeze soda bottles (leave head room) which will 1) keep your frozen food longer w/less electrical use and 2) allow you to remove the frozen water to a well-insulated cooler to keep some things cold. The frozen water bottles in front of the low wattage fan will give you some cool air. You can also buy headbands, wristbands, neckbands and hats with poly crystals inside. You get them wet and the evaporation cools you.

        • It’s best if you can store water. Otherwise you need a water source. You also need a way to cook your food and heat your home without electricity. I bought kerosene cooking stoves and kerosene heaters. You also need guns and ammo.

        • Southern Gal,

          You are on the right track. Just keep working at it. Here is a link for the LDS Preparedness Manual. It is a very helpful (and free) resource. It covers all areas of preparedness and has alot of helpful information for safe food storage.

          Take care!
          KY Mom

      29. @ Satori A good step in the right direction would be to teach kids from day 1 to eat the right way. Get rid of all the sugar water machines ( coke machines), teach them that the vaccines harm you, teach them that floride in the water is bad for you,teach them not to chew gum with aspartame in it, teach them to take care of their own bodies the right way so maybe….just maybe the hospitals won’t be full of the sick and dying that obviously were never taught you can’t eat at Burger King 3 times a day and stay healthy….now if everyone honestly put in effort to take care of their own bodies…would we need obamacare right now at all? I doubt it….sure…there would still be people that needed care even while eating healthy food…but it wouldn’t bankrupt us all. The reason we are all in this mess is because some people have zero respect for themselves and are literally eating themselves to death by the millions. Folks…it’s VERY simple IMO….there are just too many people taking absolutely PATHETIC care of themselves. Would you go #2 in your cars gas tank? Most people wouldn’t…but they don’t mind stuffing their pie holes with garbage that destroys their bodies.

        just a few thoughts :>)

        • badpuppydog

          you got it right
          a lot of our problems we bring upon ourselves
          and poor diet is a MAJOR contributor

          people dont know how to cook anymore
          everything is highly processed
          full of fat ,sugar and salt

          you eat that junk long enough
          and of course there will be negative consequences

          1 out of every 4 teens and preteens you pass on the street is now
          diabetic or prediabetic
          this is catastrophic
          the demands that will be placed on the healthcare system because of this will bring it down

          • Its all about diet. You are what you eat, mentally and physically. I eat yogurt and fruit in the morning, maybe a little oatmeal instead of yogurt; a grilled chicken salad for lunch (ok, double ranch dressing, double croutons) and fruit for dinner.

            I also take supplements. Lots of supplements and I do not drink soda. Eat raw!

            I found a concentrated health powder (made in Canada) that makes a great Kool Aid and tastes great. Its expensive but not as expensive as prescription medicine would be, and its all natural. It also makes a great smoothie.

            I work out every day and I get at least 20 minutes or more of sun. I also allow myself a small cup of coffee every day from Starbucks.

            I am a STUD! 🙂

            • Been reading & observing for awhile here & yes I have ascertained that you’re a pure 100% piece of soft wood.
              Likely, low grade knotted pine. I bet even termites reject you.
              Egads, what a self absorbed horses-ass you are.

            • Carpenter Dude: Fuck you! 🙂

      30. The solutions:
        1. Tort reform reduces liability costs and reduces prices.
        2. Make insurance portable and across state lines which reduces prices by true competition.
        3. Change all HMO/PPO plans to “any willing licensed provider” which ends contracted rates and opens the field of providers up and reduces prices.
        4. Make your paid deductibles and insurance costs tax-deductible.
        5. Make donations by corporations and wealthy individuals to charity/county hospitals tax-deductible.
        5. Offer jobs to non-paying patients at the hospitals where they are treated as a means to pay back their debt, ie, salary deduction for monthly payment………. I can go on and on….

        • A great link for beginners..can adjust amt. of purchase to customize YOUR prep needs:

 awesome, simplest list ever.

          OK, we have entered the grocery store, grabbed our shopping cart along with a sale paper and headed to the right side of the store. We are here to supplement our regular grocery shopping with foods that will be good additions to a food storage program
          Aisle #1…

      31. One thing I notice in the prepared community is how the left ( socialist / communist ) use success against the successful. I’m saddened that I see it her in condemnation of the “corp” et al. I’m not saying I want to be ruled by a corp any more than a govt. we are best served keeping both at bay, but working to make both better as well.

        Hey Jimbo…..thank man!

        • Doesn’t a UN treaty need congressional approval to be binding?
          I think I know where they are going with this. Right now it is illegal arms trade. When that doesn’t work then it will be expanded to all arms not owned buy sovereign gov’ts.
          But is there a realistic way for this to get through the approval process in congress with the repub majority in the house?

          • Obama has turned America into a banana republic. The constitution is meaningless today. Obama ignores laws he doesn’t like and does the best he can to rule by executive order.

          • Saddle up,

            Yes it does need a congressional approval, however as we have seen in the past obama will sign this with or without any approval. He walks all over our rights, then claims its just good for the people.


          • Saddle up…Unfortunately, treaties only need approved by the Senate. And we know who controls that.

            • Thanks JRS. I thought for some reason it has to go through both. At this point I ask myself would they screw with 2nd rights in an election year? Flip of the coin, nothing they do surprises me anymore. Now is it going to change my behavior? Nope they can say, do, sign whatever they please.
              What they should be doing is banning canoes. Those have to be the most dangerous things on the planet since everyone is tipping over in lakes and losing all their valuables.
              I would caution people not to get too militant. I think right now tptb are just firing warning shots to test the populations. I think things will get worse and alot worse, almost to the point where we are equal to a third world nation with people fending for themselves and defending themselves. Right now most people are complaining about what people in impoverished countries look at as luxuries. At some point we may struggle to find necessities.
              Be patient.

        • Letters from a corupt congress, over to a corupt president and sec. of state wont accomplish anything.

          They WILL sign this.

          The questions are-

          WHAT are WE going to do about it?

          Are we going to let them get away with this traitorous action?

          They have gotten away with so many crimes, and grabed so much power, CAN we really do anything about it?

          How many will put it ALL(their lives and fortunes) on the line to fight for their god/constitutional rights?

          The LAST peaceful action-
          1,000,000 ARMED man march to washington, and 100’s men marches to local congressional offices, are the ONLY things that could scare so much $hit out of our so called leaders butts to make them not sign this.

          But then that would fail, because they dont represent us.

          Then after that.


          • They’re not afraid of the people. Homeland Security is preparing for civil war after the collapse. That’s why they bought 470 million rounds of ammo. And bullet proof check points.

            • They bought those because they ARE afraid.

              Cant you see(smell) their fear?

              They KNOW an a$$ whoppin is comming, if they dont get their act together.

              And they WONT(cant) get it together because they are criminals, work for the bankers, and because the money systems flaws.

              Time is as short for them, as it is for us (and our libertiy/freedoms).

              And they it!!!!!

      32. Right or wrong on this, I believe a lot of this boils down to accountability. There is an utter lack of accountability anymore. If you ask me, a socialist society THRIVES on lack of accountability because people don’t have to be accountable for themselves or their actions. They are ants marching in line to the crumb of food.

        * Holder wasn’t even held accountable.
        * Major banks (JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch, Bear Stearns, etc) aren’t held accountable
        * Congress not held accountable
        * news agency can apparently lie now and that is okay
        * working class americans have to pay taxes and play by the rules but if you are on welfare/WIC you use drugs and make more babies to get more money because that is your right
        * apparently it is okay to be an ILLEGAL immigrant
        * Obama is not being held accountable
        * Romney WON’T be held accountable

        Laws are being broken left and right. New laws are being created without the steps of how to create a law being followed. People are at the end of their rope because their rope is being TAKEN from them and we are given a rope that we are told is better!

        I for one would like to see a complete overhaul…

        • Laws are made for you and me, not them.

      33. Simple solution. Just stop doing things that generate tax revenue. If you pay income tax, cut back your hours or stop altogether for a few years. Take a year or two off and relax. Minimize what you put into the system.
        Drop out of the “consumer” society, drop your cable TV, skip movies, stretch that car out a few more years. Buy used. Get on disability (easy to do based on the rules published at soc security website), food stamps, govt. phones, govt. internet, and such. Maximize what you take out of the system.

        A publicized and measurable “work slowdown” by the producers would ignite a debt frenzy, and that’s it. Fin.

      34. I am really curious to see what Burt the Brit has to say about socialized medicine ???

        or any others here from countries with universal health care??

        I do want to relate a true story
        a couple of years ago I was at a party
        there were people there from several European countries
        Germany,England,France and Italy to be exact
        we were discussing a wide range of topics
        when we got to healthcare
        I asked them what they thought about our system
        they ALL literally burst out laughing
        they were amazed that we paid so much and got so little in return
        all of these guys were working over here in businesses that had been bought by European companies

        • They don’t pay out of pocket. They pay high taxes. The people are ignorant enough to think their health care is free.

          • sorry
            but your assumptions are incorrect

            these were very well educated people in fairly high positions
            making six figure salaries

            they were quite aware of the true costs of their healthcare
            they were very knowledgeable of their own healthcare systems
            as well as being quite knowledgeable our way of doing things

            the last thing they were is ignorant

        • Satori ~

          I live in Canada.

          “Universal Healthcare” here is very different to the Obamacare plan.

          First, there is no additional tax levied for this plan. People here pay income tax and fairly high sales tax. Therefore people who are bigger “consumers” pay more in tax.

          There is no co-pay and no deductible. You simply make an appointment or go to a walk-in clinic, present your health card and the receptionist swipes it to be sure it is valid. The patient is not involved in billing at all – that is between the health care provider and the government agency.

          Your doctors visits, clinic visits or hospital visits, are covered. Most required treatments are also covered, like chemo for cancer patients, transfusions, or anything done in the hospital that is non-elective. Things like plastic surgery or lasix are not covered.

          You pay for your own prescription medications that are dispensed by a pharmacy. If medication is given to you in the hospital it is covered.

          You also pay for things like chiropractic care, physical therapy (unless you are an in-patient) – basically anything not provided by a physician or nurse practitioner.

          When I am in the US with family, they often talk about the “long waiting lists”. It really depends on the situation. If it is a life-threatening condition, like cancer, for example, you are paired with a specialist immediately. If you have other, less serious issues, like non-anaphylactic allergies, you may have to to wait a couple of months to see the specialist. It’s on a case by case basis. I have never known anyone personally who has waited to see a specialist when one is urgently needed. I’m sure, like anywhere, it can happen, but it has not been my experience.

          If I have missed covering anything, please ask. 🙂


          • The involvement of the insurance companies in the United States means that, in my opinion, the standard of care will be secondary to the cost of that care.

            The way Obamacare is set up is very very different. In my opinion, mixing the government with for-profit entities is a recipe for medical disaster.

            • thanks for chiming in

              overall how would you rate the quality of care received ??

            • Satori ~

              Like doctors everywhere, many of them seem to overprescribe. Our family doctor is one of the few that supports natural alternatives when possible. Waits in emergency rooms are interminably long – I don’t know if that is a problem in the US also. But in the end, I am pleased with the care we have received.

              As a single mom, and not a high-income one, it is nice to be able to take my kids to the doctor without worrying about whether or not we will get groceries that week by doing so.

              Like anything, there is a cost – Canada has much higher sales taxes. This won’t be a popular thing to say, but having lived in both countries, the US and Canada, I have to say, if my children or I had a serious illness, I would rather be in Canada because here, it won’t bankrupt me.

          • Hi, Daisy:

            Ontarian here. In 2004, our premier instituted a healthcare premium (read tax) over and above our many taxes (which pay in part for public healthcare). The amounts varied from $60 ($21K income) to $900 ($200.6K income).

            Apparently, “Mr. Premier Healthcare” transferred the premium money (some $3-billion a year) that was supposed to improve healthcare into general revenues. So, if you thought that you might have more nurses to help you, you might instead have received a road paved in part of the province in which you do not even live or for something else entirely.


            – Stoosh

            P.S. I agree that having public healthcare is a relief. No worries about going broke due to a major illness.

            It covers many things but Americans, please do not think that it’s all Cadillac service and all-inclusive. My Dad was in the hospital with a broken hip. Hospital was aged/ancient and the nurses were indifferent and overworked. Doctor/surgeon was great, though.

            Healthcare in Ontario consumes nearly half of all provincial spending. We cannot afford to let its share increase…unless we stop spending on other things…hello, rescinding corporate tax cuts!!!

            P.P.S. Apparently, B.C. is the only other province with a healthcare premium.

      35. Off-topic question for Mac: if we lose DNS service in the internet, can we reach your site by IP address only if necessary?

      36. Well my auntie and other famlies live in England..True story…nine months ago my auntie saw her doctor , which in returned set her up with a specialist…the wait nine months..Her friend had to wait almost a year after seeing her doctor, to see a specialist due to sereve breathibg problems..then she had to wait another three months for the machine to be ordered, another five weeks to get it and then pay 628.00 pds……for it.( dont now off hand pds is to our dollar)..Europe hasa very higher death rate in breast and colon cancer than here, due to the waiting period.

      37. If the Obamacare tax is a punitive tax for those who refuse to purchase health insurance, tell me how the tax will be paid by those who don’t have wages to report? The rate in which the Obamacare tax is scheduled to be levied in 2014 shows as 1% of a person’s adjusted gross income or a flat fee of $95. (The following year, it is more, etc. ) Now how does a person with no job — or a person of very low income — pay this? Those people don’t even file taxes.

        The dirty trick is that these people don’t! And this is where Obamacare becomes nothing more than another welfare program for America’s dependents, sloths, and free-riders. Once again, the taxpayer has to pay more for those who do not contribute in society. Once again, the taxpayer is burdened by another person’s problems. It’s another Progressive tactic to ‘share the wealth’. WHY WORK? Why give away more than what you consider your ‘fair share’? Because the Progressives force you to.

        The dirty little secrets in Obamacare are mostly buried. What is not being publicized is that there are numerous exemptions in Obamacare:
        Exemptions for religious objectors, undocumented immigrants, prisoners, those earning less than the poverty line, members of Indian tribes, and hardship cases (determined by HHS). Who trusts HHS to determine “hardship cases”, anyway?? But let’s focus on just one portion of those who are exempt: Those people “earning less than the poverty line” — they get free healthcare all around.

        It’s by design.

        In the USSA, it really pays to be one of those people “earning less than the poverty line”. Everything is free. Who needs money when you’re completely taken care of?

        The real question is, will we run out of “those people” before we run out of other people’s money?

      38. My thought is do we really think that the good ole USA will make it too 2014 for this BS health care tax to go into effect?


        • DPS, whether we are a functioning society or not, the IRS will still be there.

      39. It looks like CA TV lifeguard with a pension or Futurama doctor for BO. Decisions, decisions.

      40. Even before Obamacare, our government spends more per capita than Sweden, who have socialized healthcare.

        This is just more ‘run this nation off the cliff’ brought to you by the dumb asses who have given themselves so many ‘smarty’ awards. And the couch potatoes eat this up like they eat up anything you put in front of them.

      41. Something’s happening…as Gertie says in E.T.

        I’ve been paying my dr. bill for my broken toes every month since last summer; accident happened May.
        Of course with no insurance, and small monthly pmt, I was referred to collection.
        Today, a fourth party contacted me and for a pittance of my balance, the bill will be paid, I took the offer—it’s purged, cleared, paid. Before giving my debit card information, I demanded this:
        ~~~As per our conversation, the settlement in full is effective today with no remaining payments on invoice XXXXXXXXX and the account has been closed.~~~

        • JayJay

          better check your account to make sure they did what they said they would do

          you might want to cancel your card and get a new one

          bill collectors are not known for their honesty
          now that they have your info
          they may continue to draft your account

          I’ve heard a LOT of horror stories

          caveat emptor

          • okay

            • Money is all there.. except the agreed amt. taken….Thanks for the heads up.

        • JayJay…You will recieve a 1099 for the amount you were forgiven from paying. At the end of the year you will be required to report this as income and will be taxed for it on your Federal return.Better figure this in so you won’t be caught by surprise.

          • Repost…lost in space….I will also add that cash payers are discriminated against in the health care field. If you research the govt (medicare) cost of your procedure, the hospital will usually accept this amount for payment at billing time.Of course, you will still recieve a 1099 for the forgiven portion of your payment.

            • JayJay

              what JRS has said is true
              you may get a 1099
              however if this debt has been sold many times
              there is a good chance that things have gotten lost in the mail
              so to speak
              hopefully this is true in your case
              and if the debt is large enough and you were financially insolvent at the time
              it can turn into a tax write off

              also when dealing with debt collectors
              get EVERYTHING in WRITING FIRST
              and then make a payment
              use a cashiers check or money order
              no debit card info,no credit card info
              these guys are NEVER NEVER NEVER to be trusted

              they buy bad debt for pennies on the dollar
              and then try and collect
              its virtually all profit for them

          • Thanks,yes, I know. In 2010, dh and I paid 3 credit cards this way–most acquired during a year of unemployment; yes, 3 of those buggers; with installments overlapping, yikes!!; it was a bugger to do, but he’s a self-employed logger and hauls logs–so he did it with God’s grace.
            Will NEVER have a credit card ever again.
            Oh, I don’t get caught by surprise very often…

            • glad that company didn’t rip you off

              now lets hope and pray that the 1099 never shows up !!!

      42. thanks for your reply Daisy

        things are a very mixed bag where I am at

        a consult to a GI doc typically takes at least 3 months
        unless it is an emergency

        to see an ortho doc takes closer to 6 months

        needless to say if it is an emergency situation you get care right away

        waiting room times in the ER vary
        a lot of uninsured use the ER as their primary care
        we now have a separate clinic in the hospital as well as two free clinics in town and this has really helped a lot

        the hospital here eats a lot of $$$
        from people who cant pay
        last I heard it was over 35 million a year
        bad thing about the States is,you lose your job,you lose your insurance and there’s an awful lot of people round here unemployed

      43. There comes a Time in your Life when you just say …

        “PUCK IT!”

        … and you just start pulling the trigger on the FEDGOV TRAITORS , FASCIST ZIONIST MUTHA PUCKERS BAKERS AND THEIR POLITICIAN WHORES !!!



          KILL EM’ ALL

          LET ALLAH MOHAMMED da’ Prophet SORT EM’ OUT !!!

        • HEY PUCK IT: I take it that you are not a christern or saved. You know CHRIST was a JEW and he threw the money changer’s out. But thats just me

      44. Liberals…..embracing every cause as their own except reality…

        • Great Bumper Sticker! Most of them wouldn’t even understand it – LOL! Too many big words.

        • “Liberals..belief in trees having souls, but unborn are merely tissue.”

      45. Great write-up.

        It is so, so true that government is ineffective; it is the most inefficient organization ever invented. The only reason one government can win a war is that they are fighting another government’s army, and it becomes the battle of the most incompetent.

        Consider that one end of the political spectrum is total freedom, and the other end is complete subjugation. Neither is achievable, but every nation falls somewhere between the two extremes. This alone should tell you that the more government we have the less freedom we have, and clearly the USA is marching very quickly toward complete subjugation. As government takes over more and more of the economy and more and more of your life, pain and suffering increases, simply because government doesn’t work for those it supposedly serves. It works for the few who gain control of it and use it to give themselves economic advantage at the expense of the majority. This is why most of the wealth in the USA is in the hands of the few big corporations and the politicians who took it by destroying freedom and substituting government economic control.

        Bend over and grab your ankles until enough people are willing to take the risk of revolting. Right now, I don’t think enough of the population understands what is happening, and that freedom brings us prosperity, not government, so potential rebels don’t have the numbers yet.

      46. A few thoughts from my side on a compusory medical care. I am from a country where we have medical care for everybody funded via taxation. I have talked about this to the old people and it was it was the wish of the majority of these people that everybody should have access to health services no matter how much money they had and nobody was to be excluded. War and occupation was one of the reasons why they felt that some problems in society could rather be solved by the community then by an individual.

        Another point was to avoid black passengers, because those who would choose not to participate would ask for help anyway and as most people are caring someone else would have to pay the bill.

        Haveing a compulsory sytsem makes life simple. You get help but you don`t have to worry about costs or argue with some insurance agent especially if you are ill.

        The best argument is from my pint of view that when government stands firm you keep an iron fist on cooperations dealing in the health sector. Most of them in Europe are funded by the City of London, Frankfurt and Wallstreet.

        Switzerland one of the most capitalistic countries in the world has a compulsory system and they are more then happy about it. Calling the Swiss socialists for this is nonsene. You have to look a long time to find a socialist in Switzerland. Even their socialists are rather pretending to the being so.

        In my opinion the idea of running health care this way is good

        – when the large majority of people support it
        – when an eccicient system backs it (Switzerland)
        – it is strictly supervised (not like in Britain)
        – out of cooperate controll
        – transparent
        – it has grown for many years. Canada, Danmark, Norway
        and Switzerland have had many years to establish
        change, develop and fund the healthcare systems and keep them working.

        The first point is however the most important one. If a large majority of the people want to pay taxes to have such a system it is the right to have it. If not – and I am not talking about a simple majority, but ninty percent and above – leave it.

        P.S. If there are queues in my country, we have private clinics too where we can get threatment or consultation on the day. The bill goes then to the NI and you might have to pay some extra money but its woth it.

        • thanks Viking

          very interesting info

      47. @ Satori….well said….The american diet for the most part is one of our biggest problems.

      48. There will be Definitely no play in a economic shift this being a election year..

        But In 2013 the faucet will be shut off and the natives will become restless..

        We are screwed either way.. Obama will run the debt ceiling to finally do us all in.. Romney will sell off whatever we have left to china.

        Sell off what you have.. Cancel all debt now.. So when the rope is tightened – you’ll have some room to breathe!!

      49. Bank losses are “socialised” eg we foot the bill. Suffer an industrial injury after years of paying into the system or lose your job due to the bankers scams and you are on your own. Yeah right that’s so fair.

        There’s always enough money for the military industrial complex & bankers/corporate welfare on both sides of the atlantic.

        I’m a massive fan of the principle of our UK NHS, (though in practice corporatism is corrupting it in the same way the insurance companies have removed patient welfare from the top of the priority list in the US). I WANT my taxes to be used to cure sick kiddies and old ladies to get new hips without their families being bankrupted to pay for it.

        I don’t want my money going to line the pockets of the elite. Health, education and support for the genuinely at risk of destitution, (through no fault of their own) is to me the benchmarks of a compassionate Christian society. It’s how I measure the quality of a civilisation. It’s just a shame it’s been a while now since any candiates appeared for election that stood on these principles and not on the interests of big corp.

        Totally off topic – now the summer surplus fruits are here, our £5 dehydrator is working overtime and the results are stunningly tastier than shop bought! I highly rec that other preppers try it, as dehydrated surplus produce helps overcome storage issues and offers an alternative to canning. A few dried strawberries on your winter porridge could be quite the morale booster if shtf.

      50. @ EVERYONE: I am sorry for the shape this country is in now, it is all my fault! I was to busy or to tired,or just plain lazy to go to my county board meetings, school board, town board, ect. I fail to keep in contact with my elected officials, and hold they feet to the fire. I just didn’t have the time to, or I thought, boy they will be watching me now. Well now I say BULLSHIT we all, or the mass majority of US did just that. Now look at what shape our country is in. We all dropped the ball on this one, and have for years. Is it to late to wake up and correct our lazyness, yes it is. TPTB have known for years people don’t do anything to stop what they were doing and they have grown in power. Money means power and power means more money. Look if we even think we can take back this country we need to start to do something NOW RIGHT NOW, the ballot box won’t do it. We need to all go to D C and just say as ONE VOICE STOP IT NOW NO MORE! 20-30 million people, just go, they can not hide those number’s in thier media puppets reports, on the 6 o’clock news. Look we are all affraid to do something like that, but it is going to have to be done. I’m just a backwood’s boy that fought for this country and I’m not educated, but I know what is right and what is wrong, and this stuff being forced on us is wrong. But thats just me.
        Live Free and stand tall in life( it’s all we have)

      51. I am not sharing this for info; here we are all informed.. …just astounded by the number of comments…are the sheeple waking??

        Showing 20 of 4401 comments
        This gal, 70 year old grandma, isn’t letting go!!!

      52. Hey MOE- did you ever have a 10yr boy and 12yr girl come running down a trail at you with a handgrenade in each hand? I’m not saying what he did was right, but under certain culture’s childern are combatants,but babies that are killed is just plain WRONG

      53. When i lived in Canada years ago, i used walk in clinics, couldnt get a doctor..I remembered going through the yellow pages trying to find one..Each time i was asked who referred u to us..i saidno one..i just need a doctor..they said sorry and hung up!!! This happened many times and i gave up..And no they dont make u pay cash…they deduct it from everyones paycheck before u get ur paycheck..Thats how it was when i lived there..Funny theres many Canadians that have moved from there to here because of there system

      54. Socialism isn’t economically solvent ANYWHERE in the world . The US is headed for full blown Communism , very , very slowly as to get the masses used to totalitarian rule , but headed there none the less . Guns are the key factor . They must disarm us in order to be openly implement totalitarian rule . This will not be easy ( thank god ) Ammunition controle is the next best thing to firearm confiscation ……stock up now .

      55. try telling that to a liberal.
        they cant do basic math and every thing they touch turns to shit.
        they have no forsite and you cant confuse them because they are born confused.they are the sheeple of the planet.
        a doomed rase doomed to fail at every turn.

      56. Come visit the UK and see how it will end up. 37% of my wages pay for lazy arseholes to pop out kids and provides illegal immigrants with better houses than I can afford for myself. On what planet is that fair?

      57. Looks like it’s time to “stop the motor of the world”. Ayn Rand had it right 45 years ago…

        • Ah, she ended up using government benefits in her last years.

          What did she have “right” ?

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