Magic Bullet: The Last Round You’ll Ever Need

by | Jan 29, 2014 | Headline News | 392 comments

Find any gun enthusiast forum out there and you’ll no doubt come across a discussion about the best caliber rounds for stopping potential threats. While a well placed bullet of any caliber will pretty much do the job, G2R Ammo has developed a new round that will make even the worst shooters out there a force to be reckoned with.

Heralded as “the last round you’ll ever need,” the aptly named R.I.P. (Radically Invasive Projectile) cartridge may be the deadliest firearm ammunition ever developed.

Designed to maximize the dissipation of energy where it is needed and defeat every major obstacle in its path, there is truly nothing else like it.

The RIP cartridge is a 96 grain, CNC machined, solid copper, lead free projectile.

At a glance, the differences in geometry between the RIP and any other bullet of the past are quite drastic.


Once the bullet penetrates its target, high velocity fragmentation will increase the effect of temporary and permanent cavitation. The 8 fragments sheared from the bullet cause many small permanent cavities around the main entry point.

This causes multiple wound channels that will effectively hit vital organs for the eventual complete termination of interest. The main mass base of the bullet can continue its path and cause a truly massive amount of tearing as the perforated tissue is stretched.

According to the manufacturer the RIP round will be developed in various calibers including 9mm, .38, .40, .357 and shotgun shells.

An Introduction to RIP:

Imagine for one moment that this chicken is a doped up criminal who has just broken in through your back door in the middle of the night:

It looks like G2R Ammo has been paying attention to anit-gun Congressional representatives who have been working to restrict magazine capacities and civilian ownership of firearms.

Leave it to America’s private sector entrepreneurs to always stay one step ahead.

With the RIP, one round should suffice.

We fully expect an outcry over this ammunition similar to the push back Winchester received when they released their Black Talon hollow point in the 1990’s. After pressure from anti-gun lobbies the company discontinued the Black Talon line.

G2R Ammo, however, designs the RIP exclusively, suggesting that they have no intention of following in Winchester’s footsteps.


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    1. Government Guy

      Even if it’s justifiable you can expect to get sued for using a round like that.

      • ed

        @ GGuy
        you won’t be getting sued by the person you shot. Maybe by the next of kin

        • Be informed

          Screw the lawyers, your life and your family member’s lives are ALL that matters. You can always you the excuse that this was for any threat, from the criminals to dangerous animals. Your ONLY purpose in owning and using such ammo was to stop from being hurt or killed. Also that you are not someone that wants to unload their gun, just one shot stop. Someone is not going to look much better hit with a 12 gauge or 10 gauge slug, but this is widely accepted for home protection and hunting. Ammo is ammo, and the better it can stop someone the better for you, the police, and the waste that is the criminal that is only to harm and kill more people if they are not stopped. Everyone wins with the best ammo to stop a threat.

          • Be informed

            The cheaper method of stopping someone is always shot shell for the shotguns and for the handguns such as the revolvers that will hold a .45 and .410 shot shells. Stopping someone, or an animal with rabies from getting close enough to cause danger to you. Your home is your castle and no one has the right to enter and try to harm or kill you, that right of self defense is not only a Constitutional right but a right of being a human being. Use whatever to protect you and your family from firearms to a TASER, to anything to protect yourself and those around you. You always have that right.

              • Realtime Prep

                Wouldn’t that be hilarious if Snowden won over OBUTTHEAD!

                On another note, that debacle of a State of Union address. So many things to argue about but lets start at the very end.

                This despicable Prez has the AUDACITY to parade a wounded Army Ranger like he is some sort of mascot, like he actually CARES about anyone besides himself. This is the same man that during the shutdown used it to TERRORIZE veterans and widows of deceased soldiers to prove his point. And that isn’t even the most appalling part of what he said.

                He said “If Congress will not act, then I will bypass Congress to get done what needs to be done”. There is a reason that this country was setup the way that it is. So that change CAN be deliberated on PURPOSE, so that it is NOT made in haste! (OBCARE) ALSO a President who feels he doesn’t need to consult with Congress isn’t a President but a DICTATOR! This man studied Constitutional Law, he knows better!

                I want to take this time and forum to call for the Impeachment of Barrack Hussein Obama! Spread the word if you agree. As what our Muslim Dictator said, “It is a year of Action” It is time to ACT NOW, and throw his bitch ass out of office!


                • Vicky

                  ALLEGEDLY studied “Constitutional Law”. Who actually knows what he did, where he came from or anything he did or was.

                • arco

                  I agree, I think there was enough to impeach him four years ago. Sadly its the very process that he despises and tears apart that protects him. Its the House of Reps that have to file the charges, but its up to the senate find him guilty. As long as the dums have the majority in the senate, any attempt to impeach him would be wasted.

                • Shooter

                  He’s a foreign enemy that has taken over the country. If u r receiving this message u r the resistance.

                • Slick One

                  Do you think that those FEMA camps, gun grab attempts,massive ammo buying by the government, plastic coffins that can hold up to four bodies each,……..
                  are not part of a hidden agenda? I submit to you ladies and gentlmen, that the presidential primate wants a civilian force equal to the armend forces for one thing only…….they have planned for us to be liqudated.
                  Ask yourselves why white upper level military personel have been releived on one execuse or another, and replaced with nonwhites? Now the preisidential primate wants to circumvent congress with unstoppable executive orders?!!! Look at NAZI Germany and then look at our
                  shucking and jiving presidents actions… Obama is going to use laws to seperate you from your hard earned dollars and use those same dollars to provide unlimited gibbs me dat. Again I submit to you ladies and gentlemen that the camps will be for us.

                • Anonymous

                  You might want to pump your brakes once or twice just to see if they work..

                  I’ve been hearing a lot about this “State of the Union speech” and thought I’d check it out online.

                  I must say that how our President acted during his speech and the words that went with it has left me speechless and disgusted.

                  But, I think you all should watch it again and this time, don’t watch our failed leader, but look at the next in line if the president were to get impeached. That’s right, “Mr. Joe the blow hole biden”.

                  This man sat in that chair of his and had that look of complete lossness (I know not a word), and had during many moments a smile that the Joker would be jealous of!! In short, “the grass isn’t always greener on the other side still holes truth today!”

                  You preppers stay busy now and remember, you can never be fully ready for shtf.

              • RickInOregon

                I think I stick with letting the police protect me, that bullet looks too scary. 🙂

                That thing looks like it will whistle, catch the wind and lose energy down range rather quickly. I would bet that it’s point of impact would be different than a led bullet. If I was a gun person I think I would rather stay with something I could practice and sight in with.

                • eppe

                  Just a .22lr with a poison tip will do all that is needed…

                • .02

                  #4 buckshot in a 12 gauge is the most effective round for defense inside a building or across a street.

                • rednek101


                  Love your enthusiasm but don’t do it buddy. Prison is a bad place.

                • JayJay

                  My bedroom has no wind…except..well, let’s not go there.

                • Smokey

                  At 7 feet, down range is not the term to use. This is self-defense pistol ammo, not Camp Perry match ammo.

              • Anonymous

                A REALLY GOOD VIDEO– at unrepentant cowboy website. Interview with Ed Snowden– the US gov. has threatened to kill him.

              • Risky Whiskey

                he gets my vote.

                • Gold Leader

                  I very happily state that he should receive much more than this simple acknowledgement. He should be recognized to the highest honor, if not just for his actions, but also for the sheer size of his cajones, knowing he’d pay dearly for it and doing it anyway.

                  Gold Leader standing by.

              • buttcrackofdoom

                isn’t there a nobel prize for EVIL? the obamination should have the LOCK on THAT ONE!

            • Paranoid

              Just another wonder. Every study done says the same thing. Just hit your target. In a real SHTF situation any good hit will be a kill shot, with no MD. The Bad guys don’t have MD’S in the SHTF. In regular times, at home, just use a 12 GA. Yes, this ammo is likely to get you sued, but 7 rounds from a good old 45 will work just fine, and likely cost less. I use a 9MM jacketed hollow point. See no reason to do more. If I need more I have a 45and a 357. On the other hand I’d just use a 30-06 AP. Good for all occasions.

              • Warchild Dammit

                Paranoid,7 rounds in old school .45,jack a round in and reload mag,an extra never hurts,I love the 70 series!

                • Smokey

                  Series 70 is the best of them !

            • clint hospo

              guys dont waste your money on these. They are going to be way overpriced and yes they do damage but so do a .22 to the head. Think smart. Plus this will not go thru level 3 armor. I mean get a box and use them or to have but don’t lose money on these a 12 gauge buckshot will do the same thing basically at closer range of course.

              • Out O' Time

                $44 for 20 rounds of 9mm.

              • Out O' Time

                $44 for 20 rounds of 9mm

              • Gregory8

                clint hospo” I think you’ve missed the point. This thing is the hideous offspring of the Black Talon and shot gun round, it’s purpose is to shred-PERIOD! Now whether the ‘recipient’ is wearing body armor is almost immaterial. Most bad guys; the non-cop/non-military won’t be wearing armor, and the rest won’t get away unscathed either. A few rounds of these even on body armor will cause it to fail everywhere except the chest and back plates, and if anyone is hit in the extremities they will lose that part due to sever cutting. These little projectiles are like supersonic little knives and armor won’t last long after just a few rounds of being ‘stabbed’ dozens and dozens of times. So unless they ‘shootee’ has a battle trained medic nearby, they’re going to bleed out very quickly. The ballistics gel in the video tells this story very well-“get hit with this and DIE due to massive trauma”! In a SHTF world a couple of boxes of these babies could make you the most feared person in the area. Limit the number of rounds I can carry and I’ll just have to make each round that more devastating.

            • 1braveheart

              BI, good evening, and AMEN to both of your posts regarding self-defense. Let’s not overlook the venerable .22LR projectile for self-defense IF IT’S THE ONLY THING SOMEONE HAS AND WOULD STILL BE BETTER THAN NOTHING. People become shocked when they discover what the .22LR can REALLY do. .22s were used for assassinations in Vietnam. .22LR was used in the assassination attempt on President Reagan back in 1981. Go to Very interesting story. Jim Brady, White House Chief Of Staff, was wounded and disabled for life by a .22LR round and his wife, Sara, turned into a POS gun grabber over that. John Hinckley is still in the nuthouse today as I type this. The other 2 people besides Reagan who were wounded, died of their wounds later.

          • sixpack

            The only problem I see with this new ammo, is that there’s a big chance the govt will try and possibly succeed in keeping it out of the hands of the public.

            Imagine that only the govt and LEOs were allowed to use this monster-stopper bullet. That wouldn’t be very good for the rest of us in SHTF, having to dodge THIS too.

            I’d be very surprised if it ever hits the public market.

            • sixpack

              …and even more surprised if they don’t jerk it off the shelves almost immediately.

              • buttcrackofdoom

                at over two bucks a ROUND, the only way THOSE fly off the shelf is if walmart gets hit by a TORNADO!

                • Out O' Time

                  The entire productiin run sold out in 5 minutes… 5 MINUTES!!!!
                  There is one retail store in Arkansas and 5 places online that have the distribution of it but they can only produce 60k rounds a month. I do suspect the Fed’s will be all over this in no time.

                • tayronachan

                  @buttcrackofdoom, LMAO!!!

            • JoeRepublic

              There’s another problem. With all those jagged edges, I can easily see these becoming FTF rounds past the first round on the mag. If you have a revolver, no problem. Using shit like this in a magazine could problematic in a lot of firearms. I wouldn’t know for sure until I tried some, but I do get the occasional FTF in my S&W .40 using Golden Sabers. Just something to consider.

            • SWFL

              I say let them spend their time and money trying to ban this and stay away from what I know and care about.
              I have nothing against the concept, I just don’t see the utility.
              Maybe we could start a campaign to design and faux-produce scarey-looking stuff like this and tie down the enemy in court chasing ghosts in the fog.

          • TheGuy

            Jesus Christ look at the exit wound on that thing…

            That’s insane!

            You know what I really want and I wish someone would make it. I mean I would but how would I ever get it legalized?

            12 gage, short barrel, pistol grip, short as possible for tight spaces. Loaded with rock salt rounds. Second barrel, .40 cal of this. Not sure about the trigger system, one for each barrel I guess, one foreward of the other.

            Got all my options for non-lethal, hopefully not escalating to lethal but it’s there if you need it.

        • Hammerun

          I wonder what that puppy cost?

          • Out O' Time

            $44 for 20 rounds of 9mm

        • BigB

          @ All,

          Just score a X on any 22 LR and you get the effect of 4 rounds at close quarters.


      • Gods Creation

        I have no desire to kill anyone, only to disable them so I can go about my business in peace. If I must kill someone, it will be because they continue asking for lead long after they should have stopped.

        Any gun and any bullet can handle that for me. I have no desire to be the baddest killing machine in the world. My ego does not require that, and neither does my survival.

        • Mountain Trekker

          Gods Creation, I must respectfully disagree. I have no desire to kill anyone. But my thoughts are, if they’re worth shooting they’re worth killing. Trekker Out. Si vis pacem, para bellum!

          • Canadian Vet

            I agree. The moment you bring a deadly-force weapon such as a gun into play, it is too late to try and be less-lethal. It is because you are certain that KILLING your aggressor is the only way to safeguard your safety and that of those in your care. Period, full stop.

            If you shoot, you keep shooting until the threat is ended, and save the kneecapping and other Hollywood tricks for movies and TV shows. Centre of mass (and the head if so trained) only. Plus, if you go for a “trick shot”, it could be argued you were planning to shoot the guy regardless of what he did or didn’t do.

            • DRD5508

              Agree with you both, Trek and CA. I feel wounding is worse than quick death, and this isn’t about my ego.

            • JayJay

              Judge asked the defendant why she shot the attempted rapist 6 times.
              Cause when I pulled the trigger the 7th time, it just went click!

              • buttcrackofdoom

                @JJ..laffin my ASS off!

            • Gods Creation

              Canadian Vet,

              My hands and feet are deadly force weapons if properly applied to the correct places. A gun just benefits one while the potential threat is a safer distance away.

              If a threat approaches, there will be no “trick shots”. Shoot em in the midsection, and if that doesn’t make them retreat they have earned a few extra bullets.

              Again, it’s ALL situational. Some seem to think they will somehow have a license to kill anything they deem a threat no matter what the threat is.

              I don’t think that way. Do what is necessary, but if a man is down and and no longer a threat because you shot him in the gut you no longer have a right to put a bullet in his head if he doesn’t die right away.

              The exception will be those wearing costumes of the corp. They have shown their loyalty to evil and have already decided their own fate in doing so.

              • Sierra Dave

                In this day and age. Many of the home break ins are by people having a psychotic episode or hopped up on drugs.

                Being nice doesn’t work.

                • Gods Creation

                  Threat assessment is the key. Nobody said be nice to someone breaking into your home. Once they are past the front door they lose their rights and present a threat of deadly force that must be countered in kind.

                  But if you shoot him and he goes down, you don’t have the right to put another bullet in his head if the threat is neutralized.

              • Canadian Vet

                GC, despite being agnostic myself I deeply respect and admire your faith, make no mistake.

                However, maybe it is the whole military mindset coming into play here but a gut shot isn’t a good idea. Yes, it will hurt, might even knock him down. But even if he is down, my aggressor can still use a gun. Or it might not even slow him down, at least in the short term. I was trained to fire a minimum of a double-tap to the chest. One to the head as well if need be.

                But wer are talking the Mozambique technique here, not walking up to him while he’s busy bleeding out and choking on his blood and executing him. That is an execution and while it migh be a kindness to my aggressor, it is also excessive.

                But I will maintain that a gun is a deadly force response and if you are intending to use one for self-defence, you have to be 100% committed to the idea that if you resort to it, it is because you have to use this deadly force. Otherwise, your hesitation is all an aggressor would need to harm you, or worse, your family.

              • tayronachan

                @Gods Creation, I agree. Once a threat is out of the fight, and disarmed, and there are no more threats, I’ll not be doing any “coup de gras”.

            • Anon

              Police don’t necessarily shoot to kill…they shoot to stop the threat. If the target dies in the process, too bad for the bad guy.

              • buttcrackofdoom

                not ALL the people cops shoot are BAD! never forget that cops LIE to cover their ASSES!

                • Sgt. Dale

                  You are right there have been people shot that weren’t bad guys.
                  Unfortunately this will happen on this job. But when was the last time you saw were a plumber shot some one, or a fire fighter? You don’t because they don’t have to use guns to do their jobs.
                  Its not that all cops lie, that is just not true. Do some cops lie, YES. Please don’t put all cops in the same basket. Thanks

              • SWFL

                I am not sure that is true any longer, at least not everywhere. There is what is taught in the academy, and then there is what the culture teaches in the locker-room and on the street. The mantra of “officer safety first” has made a sad joke of the profession in which people were respected for deliberately risking themselves to keep their community a safe place to live. It used to be “be alert and aware while investigating”, now it is frequently “be abusive and dominate with overwhelming physical and emotional force then investigate (after defending your pride if at all)”. Now it seems the LEO (not to be confused with what we called a ‘police officer’ in my time)is just one more of the violent dangers to be avoided.
                As the “old timers” die off or retire, I see it getting worse. And for a taste of irony- I don’t see the “new-timers” surviving the same situations any better, as well as having lost the trust of the public.
                Sorry I went somewhat O.T. I’m home sick and the inactivity and med.s are making me cranky.

            • TheGuy

              Well that’s the whole problem isn’t it?

              I’m surprised no one’s recognized it and attempted to capitalize on it.

              The second you bring a lethal weapon into the situation, you’ve just escalated it to almost-certainly lethal. You try to back it down or bluff it out, it’s likely to be lethal for YOU.


              I want one thing I can point that is non-lethal, but has a lethal back up option.

              Psychologically not quite sure how that would play out… the non-lethal needs to be capable of fully incapacitating the target I suppose…

          • Gods Creation

            It is a situational assessment. I,m not gonna kill a thug with a knife just because I have a gun. I would try to disable them first if the situation allowed.

            If someone is shooting at me, or a threat to shoot me or a loved one, first kill shot wins and I will have no alternative but to fire it.

            It’s just not my first choice. In fact, it will be my last.

            • Canadian Vet

              Do you know the first rule of a knife fight? It is “don’t get in one”.

              Do you know what the second rule is? It is “one man goes to the hospital, the other one to the morgue”.

              A knife, any knife, is a serious deadly force threat even in untrained hands. And while you might be willing to gamble with your life that way, I’m not. He has a knife and he comes at me, if I have a gun I’m shooting him. If I don’t have one, then if I can I’m running like Hell and if I can’t I’ll have what I have to do and pray I can get my digs in before he causes too much damage. But I have no illusions: even if I come out on top, I’ll definitely need some serious patching up afterwards.

              • Paranoid

                AH; I was taught the first rule of a knife fight is: Shoot the idiot twice.

                • Warchild Dammit

                  Actually,during the 70’s a friends older brother who was a special forces type we were talking with about knives and the first thing he said about knives was run like hell if you can,he then went on to say,corenered/yes/don’t have a gun/no/ and then went on ways to defend ones self,knives in trained hands a very bad thing if on the other side of one.

              • Warchild Dammit

                A karrambit in even just basically trained hands is a scary thing,why I own one.

              • Gods Creation

                “””He has a knife and he comes at me, if I have a gun I’m shooting him.”””

                Of course you will, and so will I. Otherwise, why have a gun in the first place? But if he is 20 feet away and not packing a gun I am not going to “shoot to kill” with the first shot, I am going to shoot to stop. If all he has is a knife, he will almost certainly stop and fall down, not to get up again. If not, there is more than one bullet in my gun for just such an occurrence.

                Besides guns, there are many other weapons one can use at short distances. Throwing stars (and throwing knives too) are not only great weapons, but also fun to practice with and easy to carry anywhere you go.

                Staffs and baseball bats are also great weapons to stop people not packing heat.

                The response should exceed the threat, but a blanket “I am going to kill them no matter what the threat” is a bad policy.

                It could lead you to places you do not want to go, both in this world and in what comes after.

                • RandomTangent1957

                  Law enforcement is trained to never let someone with a knife closer than 18 feet. If you do, & they rush you…you will most likely get cut. A lot of folks want to call excessive use of force when the Cop shoots someone several feet away…..but you must do that to protect yourself . A knife can make you dead just as well as a gun. If you are going to believe that you are going to protect yourself with a gun… better get your head right NOW . There is no thinking about it when the time comes. There is no “I’ll just wing the bad guy….cause I don’t want to kill him if I don’t have to.” If you need to use deadly force… need to kill the bad guy. 2 or 3 well placed shots.
                  If you can’t do this….get rid of the gun…..because it is going to be used on you. While I have no desire to ever shoot another human…..if it comes down to me…or them…..they are toast. They will be dead to the best of my ability….after which I will collect any weapons or ammo ….& that’s that. I’ll sleep like a baby. No regrets. Y’all need to get to this frame of mind. You are not going to bluff some psychopath to just go away. Find a firearm that you are comfortable with….& get proficient. Can you get good groups ? Now …go run 100 yards…come back & try to make the same grouping. Practice until you can. Adrenaline pumping is what you will have is a real situation. Try shooting in low light situation. Can’t see the sights …or through the scope ? Now is the time to fix that. Know how to brake it down, clean lube & reassemble. Learn how to reload in the dark. Push your limits. You need to be able to do all of this second nature….with out thinking about it. Stay safe & keep on prepping !
                  Standing by in
                  Montgomery County Texas

                • RealAdvice

                  Define exactly how you shoot to stop? In an emergency are you going to have the wits to aim at the person’s leg? How about the quality aim required to hit a moving target? Aim center mass and shoot until you’re out of ammo or the attack stops. Whichever comes first. People who wish to do a person harm with a knife have forfeit their lives.

                • Canadian Vet

                  GC, my specialty is,a,force multiplier and I know for a fact that work I personally did in Afghanistan was directly responsible for a lot of dead Taliban and I have absolutely no problems with that, it is them or us and like anyone I like a job well done. However, I have never fired a shot in anger and you’ll never understand up thankful I am for that.

                  Being prepared and willing to kill doesn’t mean I actually WANT to. The distinction is slim but it is there all right. And I have no illusions: if I have to kill someone, anyone, I WILL have sleepless nights and nightmares for the rest of my life. But then again, I’m human and if killing wouldn’t bother me then there is something dreadfully wrong with me.

                • Canadian Vet

                  Also, throwing stars are illegal in Canada and throwing a knife is just counter-intuitive. First, generating enough force to be lethal at range is less than a guarantee and if you miss, your hands are empty and the other guy has your knife.

                • SWFL

                  I always shoot to stop, unless I am hunting legal game species rather than engaged in self-defense. If I can “stop” by stepping back into my house and closing the door that is what I will do.
                  “Shooting to kill” means,to me, “take him with me”; in self-defense I act(maybe including shooting)with a higher standard in mind.

                • George Zimmerman

                  Throwing your knife and it sticking in the bad guy only works in the movies. Throwing knives are specially made for throwing and are not a lot of good in combat. Sorry, GC, you are full of shit here.

              • Rich

                Completely agreed Canadian! As I sit here looking down at a Randall 1967 Vietnam fighting knife! Cream of the collection 🙂 Never! Under any circumstance downplay the perp that has a knife. There’s a reason why the avg. beat officer has to be so careful in that inital patdown of a perp.

              • snake eater

                Canadian vet brother I like the way toy think we must be kin


                • snake eater

                  second post because of big fingers C V that should be I like the way you think


            • BJ

              Once again, you are spot on GC. The Bible is pretty specific on when it is ok to take a life and when it is not. A thug breaking in with no weapon or a knife to steal is not one of those times. But then again, you don’t always have time to make that assessment and may have to error on the side of caution for your family and you.

              • Barn Cat

                I think you’re referring to this:

                (Exo 22:2-3p NIV) “If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed; {3} but if it happens after sunrise, he is guilty of bloodshed.

                I don’t believe that those verses prohibit defending myself but only against unnecessary violence. A homeowner needs to have a wide latitude in assessing what constitutes a threat. To me, anybody breaking in my house will be treated as a threat to my life. So yes, I’d pull my gun and if they came toward me I’d fire as many shots as necessary to drop them. Obviously that doesn’t give you to license to kill an intruder.

                • BJ

                  Yes that is the verse. And actually, the more I think about it the more I realize that I can only speculate on exactly what I would do? I think I know, but no one knows for sure until they are in that situation and every situation can be different. I know I have the capability to do what is necessary, especially after almost losing my life when a thug in New Orleans tried to kill me and rob me. I was shot and almost died. I can only pray and hope I always aim true and shoot at the right person at the right time.

            • Maudy Frickett

              Only putting one in someone, even if they “only have a knife”, is a good way to get killed. A lot of trainers used to teach their students to double tap the target. And some students who got in gunfights only fired two rounds and then stopped to evaluate got themselves shot by an opponent who didn’t care about their training. Read about the 21 foot rule. Someone with a knife can close the distance of 21 feet faster than you can aim and fire.

              • Northern Reb

                Off Subject. I saw my financial consultant yesterday, Well here goes, first of all as soon as the Fed. stop printing money and buying the U.S debt you will see the markets go down, like yesterday 190point drop. Also keep an eye on interest rates, when they start up if you have any holdings in bonds you better dump at lease 1/2 of them and buy tangible assets. Gold, Silver, land, diamonds, something that you can hold in your hand or step on and say I own it.
                He also told me that he fells (and so do I) that we are on the same path we were back in the late 1920’s. All it will take is one small thing to start a sell off.
                Also keep and eye on Europe and Asia. they started to raise there intest rates in Turkey and now the talk is that it will spread all over the E.U. and Asia. If that happens the U.S. will have to follow there lead so bonds will be junk.
                China has two large banks that are insolvent. These banks are like Leaman Brothers and could cause a bank run in China.
                There are two banks now in Russia that has stopped all cash withdrawals until Feb. not sure of the date but I think it was the 10th.
                So be ready, the debt bubble is worst than the one in 2000 (the tech bubble) which was -$145 billion, and 2007 (the housing bubble)which was -$128 billion. The debt bubble right now is -$178 billion. In other words there is a BIG CRASH coming very soon.
                I’ll get you some more information on the debt bubble tomorrow.
                Thing are not as good as the Prez. said it is. Of coarse it want be his fault again maybe he can blame Hillary
                KEEP PREPP’N!!!!!!!!!
                S.T.S.F.P. N.R. N.S. N.REB

            • buttcrackofdoom

              google “man with knife kills 2 policemen” in nicaragua…they had him surrounded for a few minutes as he planned it out in his mind, went berserk, and stabs i think 4 of them, two die. i didn’t provide the link because i didn’t want to sign it to youtube to watch it.

            • Walt Kowalski

              If you start to view an assailant in the same way you would look at a rabid dog, then you won’t question what it is that you have to do.

              You put a rabid dog down. You put an assailant down.

              There is no malice in it. You simply do what you have to do to protect your family and yourself.

              But I will say this…..if the shooting of an assailant does not result in his death, then you have no guarantee that he will not someday return again to do violence to you.

              In my opinion, once someone has determined to use deadly force against me or my family, then he has forfeited his right to continue to live and be a threat to myself or my family ever again. Giving a violent criminal a second chance is not a luxury you can afford in a SHTF situation.

          • Gods Creation

            “””if they’re worth shooting they’re worth killing.”””

            I would have to disagree. It would be a violation of Gods Law to take a life when it is not necessary. I don’t care about the corps law, but I do care about His.

            It is not for me to decide who lives or dies. My job is to protect my family and get them to safety. If I can do that without taking a life, I owe it to God to do so even if I owe the potential threat nothing.

            The right to protect and defend does not include the right to murder when other options are available.

            It is all situational. In every situation I try to see through Gods eyes, and if it ever comes down to that choice I hope that God will lead me the right way.

            Many it appears think in terms of all or nothing. Life is rarely that way. The inability to see and live that fact contributes greatly to our problems.

            • RealAdvice

              Shooting to kill so the threat stops is your duty. Standing over the fallen attacker and putting more rounds into him/her would be the part about going against God’s law.

              • Paranoid

                Absolutely, shoot the sucker from a safe distance, 5-6 times if you have extra ammo. The only valid reason to get that close is to get his weapon and roll his wallet.

              • snake eater

                why in hell would I want to put another round into the sorry ass…… would not be needed


                • Paranoid

                  Watch”Princess Bride” As Miricle Max says: here is two kinds of Dead. Sort of Dead, and Dead Dead. You don’t turn you back or get close to the first kind EVER.

            • George Zimmerman

              Get in your motor home with your homemade license plates and drive away. Just hope some “corp” officer don’t see your plates. In spite of your ramblings about “freedom”, they’ll still call a tow truck and tow your “home”.

              In the hythetical case here, the perp has already madethe decisions for you. Good luck discerning whether he means to kill you. People like you came up with the stupid “duty to retreat” laws.

            • Walt Kowalski

              “The right to protect and defend does not include the right to murder when other options are available.”

              Defending your life in a manner that results in the death of the person threatening your life is not murder.

              Here’s a question for you. If we follow your line of thought to its logical conclusion, then what do we do about capital punishment? Because obviously, if we have captured a murderer and through due process have found him guilty, we can incarcerate him for the rest of his life. But the Bible clearly teaches that murderers are to be put to death.

              Killing a murderer, or someone who is trying to kill you or your family, is not murder.

          • (D.C.)newbee

            I the heat of the moment its hard enough to hit a large target like someone’s torso. I would not be shooting for the leg or somewhere just to wound them you will most likely miss and give the bad guy a chance to get you. Aim for the middle of the chest if your off a bit most likely they will still be stopped. GC the last thing I ever want to do is have kill someone. As Sgt Dale says aim small miss small.

            • Sgt. Dale

              You are right. This why I train my officers to aim and the middle of the chest on the bad guys. It is the largest area.
              You can bet on it when you have to use deadly force on someone you will be shaking like a dog POOPPING peach seeds.
              If you remember about 6 months ago in N.Y. the two cops put some where around 18 rounds down range and only hit the bad guy twice. If I remember right.
              Shooting at paper targets is completely different that shooting at a bag guy, Zombie/Leach.
              One piece advise don’t talk to the police until your attorney arrives. JUST SAY I’M UPSET AND DON’T WANT TO TALK UNTIL MY ATTORY ARRIVES BECAUSE I MIGHT SAY SOMETHING YOU MIGHT MISCONSTREW. Just give them your name and your I.D.
              AIM SMALL MISS SMALL

        • JayJay

          And, GC..I do have to clean that mess before we bury that criminal.
          Less mess better for me.
          A little blood on the laminate or carpet–fine.
          Guts all over the wall? I don’t think so. I’ll be needed digging that hole. 😉

          • Gods Creation

            That “criminal” could be a starving man trying to feed his wife and kids that poses a minimal threat. The least amount of mess will occur when you have forced a retreat or disabled them eliminating the threat.

            The Bible tell us to judge righteously. That requires a reasonable threat assessment and minimal force when that is all that is needed to stop the threat.

            Kill when you have no other choice. Otherwise it is murder.

            • SilverSurfer

              “Could be” just a starving guy breaking in, but if he’s breaking in I’m not risking my family’s life to give him the benefit of the doubt.
              Might as well go along with Biden’s idea of defending your family- “Get a dog; get a shot gun; fire once into the air”….
              Yeah, okay…

              • swinging richard

                If it is a starving guy, he needs to knock on the door and ask for charity. Trying to harm me or mine will not end well. I do not want to harm anyone, but do not tread on me.

            • Canadian Vet

              If someone breaks into your home while you and yours are threre, then it is clear the criminal has no regards for the well-being of the people in the house or he is actively intent on hurting people. Either way, he is definitely not there to bake you some cookies. To go with the presumption the intruder is anything other than a serious deadly force threat to your family isn’t just stupid, it is suicidal. Or even worse, it is you allowing him an opportunity to harm those in your charge.

              Also, there are few things more dangerous than a desperate man. Desperate people can do things that would be otherwise unthinkable and if desperate enough they will stop at nothing to get what they are after. Even the father trying to feed his starving children can turn into a murderer under these conditions.

              He is inside your home, he is a threat until he isn’t anymore and a lot of how he stops being a threat depends on your aggressor. So whether he surrenders, runs or tries to do so getting stupid, that is up to him.

              But your response in the nd depends on you too. You want to gamble with your life and your family’s life because you’d rather not risk killing this dangerous aggressor, it is up to you. Me, if I shoot I shoot to kill, because a gun is a deadly force response and if I am resorting to one, it is because killing, the last resort and the top end of the use of force continuum, isthe only way to protect me and mine.

              And I’m not saying I won’t have sleepless nights about it, I’m still human after all, but it is something I will do with a clear conscience. My wife and children are too valuable to me to not be a 100% willing to go to this extremity to protect them.

            • BJ

              What about when the innocent need protectiona dn can’t protect themselves?
              Serious question, wnat to know your thoughts.


              • Warchild Dammit!

                BJ,have said repeatedly SHTF I will try and help others,depending on wether armed could see someone thinking home abandoned and thus fair game(I die my pack/supplies/hell tough enuff my body fair game to any who find em)but I feel they are armed and trying to steal,they will die.I personally am going to end up on the rock in hell with a beer and a smoke laughing,I almost married Julie,nothing there to scare me!I till that time though will try and help others,including killing any I see raping/murdering ect.,no matter who they are.

                • BJ

                  Thanks for the reply, but I was actually referring to the millions of babies that are murdered each year in America and the rest of the world.

                  Aren’t we all guilty for allowing it to continue. We allow the clinic down the street or in town to murder every day.

            • Barn Cat

              Anybody breaking into my house is a criminal by definition. I would expect them to be willing to kill me to feed themselves and their family. Only an idiot would underestimate an intruder’s intentions.

            • Sgt. Dale

              I think we all would like to stay away form blowing some ones butt away because he was he was trying to feed his family.
              Here is where I draw the line for me. When some one breaks into my house (less say) to take food for his family, he is now taking food out of my families mouth. It short shortening there life. So I have only one thing to do. Shorten his life to prolong my families life.
              I know I will have to answer to God for what I did, and I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it. I would not be killing him with malice in my heart it would for the survival of my family.
              Aim Small Miss Small.

              • snake eater

                Sgt. Dale wouldn’t it have been better to just knock on your door????????????


            • Walt Kowalski

              I sincerely hope that you can continue to live securely in the fantasy world you’ve created……because you don’t have a clue as to how the real world works.

              • Walt Kowalski

                Above comment directed at God’s Creation.

          • snake eater

            jay jay I`ll come help dig it


        • Gregory8

          God’s Creation: You too seemed to have missed the point. This new round is like a bullet and a bunch of high speed mini-knives all in one. The aim, if you’ll pardon my pun, is to stop the threat-PERIOD. If that threat dies in the process-too bad, they shouldn’t have been a threat in the first place. This will give the bad guys yet one more thing to think about and if they don’t, no loss to society. In fact, it’ll be net savings as we won’t have to pay for their wound treatment, trial, and lengthy incarceration, just a quick autopsy and a paupers burial should someone choose to use one of these.

      • Kulafarmer

        They can try!

      • Mountain Trekker

        These bullets bring back memories of the Flechettes that were used in Vietnam in the early 60’s. Only this bullet is made for a pistol and the flechettes were used in a shotshell and had a different purpose. But probably have a similar wound channel, other than the entry wound.Trekker Out. Semper Paratus!

        • Paranoid

          I got 20# of the short Flechettes. Not exacty surewhy but they were SUCH A GOOG DEAL Oh well.

          • Mountain Trekker

            Para I thought about buying some, and still have shotshell reloading equip. in a building back in Mo. If I ever move back that way, I may try loading up some of those flechettes, if I can find some, use to see them advertised in the old shotgun news. Understand they penetrate some body armor. Trekker Out.

            • Paranoid

              If you want a coupe of lbs. If you cannot find them We can arrange something. Mail them to a store near you whatever.

            • Walt Kowalski

              Saw this in a post in the AR-15 forums…..

              Don’t know how accurate it is, but raises some good points.


              Shotgun Flechettes were experimented with in Vietnam where they failed.

              The problems are:

              The tiny “needles’ have no mass, and therefore have no striking or stopping power.
              There were a good many cases of enemy troops shot with Flechettes that kept running and shooting even though they’d received fatal wounds.
              It was only after they’d bled to death internally that they finally collapsed.
              Meanwhile they were still shooting and throwing satchel charges into bunkers.

              Second, half the Flechettes have to be stacked in the shell BACKWARD because of the tiny fins on the rear that take up shell space, otherwise, the shell won’t be filled up.
              Because of this, too many Flechettes fail to stabilize or turn point forward.
              Targets and enemy troops were found to have Flechettes hitting sideways, and others that simply failed to penetrate, further reducing stopping power.

              After all this became apparent, the Flechettes were withdrawn from service, and today, the only places that sell them are those internet outfits that sell weird and useless shotgun ammo like “Dragon’s Breath” flame thrower rounds, tear gas shells, and shot connected by cord.

              Flechettes SOUND like a good idea, and they “can” be fatal……. Eventually,

              “Eventually” is not something you want in your bedroom at 3:00AM some morning.
              To date, NO shotgun ammo yet made is as effective as a load of standard buckshot or a slug.

        • SWFL

          My first though was of the B.A.T rounds that came out in the early ’80s.

        • buttcrackofdoom

          LMFAO at the second line..SHUT UP! great parody, BA.

      • TXSF

        If you deserve to be shot for ANY reason, the caliber or round will not matter. Your just a DEAD.

        • Barn Cat

          What really matters is how quickly they die. What matters is if they can fire more shots at you after they’re hit.

      • TXSF

        If you deserve to be shot for ANY reason, the caliber or round will not matter. Your just as DEAD.

      • 21Bravo

        Dead men don’t sue….

        Their families might…

        • snake eater

          what if they can`t find a body??????


      • Kevin2

        Depends on the locality.

        In Delaware if your not convicted criminally you can’t be sued.

      • Anonymous

        Nothing new, just the latest, greatest marketing. No more powder, and they have opened up the nose, the . 45axp has been offering these style bullets since the early 80s. Anybody remember the 230 grain, flying ashtray. I shot them out of my duty 1911 Colt way way back then.


        • sixpack

          I never knew stuff like that existed.

        • Anon

          Remington Golden Sabers? Got those.

      • Jr

        “Government guy????”” Are you from the same govt that has police stopping 9 yr old girls – literally – from selling Koolaide on street corners, or who – yesterday – it was reported the govt stopped an 11 yr old girl from privately selling cupcakes?? And yes, of course people would get sued. Heck, all those Obungler supporting trial lawyers gotta milk the system somehow, right?

      • Jonny V

        This looks perfectly designed to separate wanna-be’s and suckers from their money….

        Fact……People and animals have been dying from gunshot wounds for over one thousand years before the invention of the jacketed bullet.

        • Paranoid

          You had guns over 1000 years ago WOW.

          • SWFL

            Not me personally, but my Chinese ancestors did.

            • Jonny V

              That’s a fact also SWFL….the Chinese began using “gourd guns” to kill enemy soldiers and horses around 1000 AD…..It’s a gourd, hollowed out, reinforced with rope, and packed full of blackpowder and rocks. It was aimed from a tripod of bamboo, and devastating within close range. A single gourd gun could kill numerous enemy and their horses in one shot. The Chinese fielded thousands of them all at one time… Good lesson on Chinese tactics, you know, in case it becomes important in the future…

              Of course, they continued to refine firearms over the intervening years, but for the purposes of the average hillbilly……………..We’ll just pretend that firearms appeared in the last 200 years or so and call it good. No need to rile the villagers…….

              • SWFL

                I think you may have accidentally maligned a few hill-billy types I grew up with. Not that they would have necessarily known about the history of firearms development, but if they didn’t it would be because they didn’t care, and would not have bothered to say anything. The above post not only displayed ignorance of the subject but also showed a desire to make strangers look wrong. A hill -billy would not waste the time on a stranger.

      • JayJay

        **Imagine for one moment that this chicken is a doped up criminal who has just broken in through your back door in the middle of the night**

        I sorta like my youth 12 gauge shotgun; I wanta watch him bleed and suffer!!

        • Barn Cat

          You don’t want him to stab you to death before he collapses and dies. What matters most is what happens in the 30 seconds after they’re hit. That’s why I’d fire shots from my 20 gauge shotgun until he drops.

      • Mark Smith

        Having never learned from Dr. Martin Fackler’s work at his US Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory, there are always some jokers like these G2R guys trying to market [expensive] frangible projectiles for their supposed lethality.

        There is no “magic bullet.”

        The key to lethality is… marksmanship. No bullet substitutes for that.

        Either you make a central nervous system hit that stops “the electricity” instantly or you make a big enough hole to speedily empty “the plumbing.”

        • The Old Coach

          An old fisherman once said about fancy lures, they are designed to catch fishermen, not fish.

          I’d wonder how many failure-to-feed jams per hundred rounds those things produce? Doesn’t look like a good nose profile for your average semi-auto. OK in a revolver, of course.

          • The Old Coach

            The maker might argue that not penetrating a cinder block is a good thing, (over-penetration risking collateral damage), but you get the same effect by using 55 grain varmint ammo in a .223 / 5.56×45 rounds. For 1/4 the price per round. Less if you reload.

      • Anonymous

        CNC machined round . stupid idea.

      • Anon

        Shoot, shovel, shut up.

        • snake eater

          Anon you would love my place it seems like some dummy dug
          a bunch of elephant traps all over my property,,simple dump and fill a little


      • DUHAUST


        • Sgt. Dale

          NO they won’t because we are too cheap and at $44.00 for 20 rounds you can bet on that. We have to qualify with what we carry and most P.D. have to supply the Ammo for their Officers. So the City won’t pay for them. Cops are hard to change. We will stay with our Gold Dot, Hydro Shok, and Ranger Rounds we know how they work.
          Aim Small Miss Small.

      • VRF

        The legality to stop the threat with any means necessary..Screw their law suit
        also Castle Doctrines normally have a provision stating that no civil suits to be brought against said person in lawful self defense

        rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6

      • Donald Ames

        Yes…gubberment guy, the corrupt political process will attempt to sue you for justifiably saving your own life but it will only mark the point where the good people revolt and remove these bastards by force.

      • Tim

        I don’t remember where I heard this from, but in this instance, it fits… “I’d rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.”

      • George Zimmerman

        Roll up your sleeves and clean up.

      • Kurt Lazarus

        Only if they survive which probably won’t happen very often. These rounds will go the way of the Winchester Black Talon, so get some while you still can.

      • akvalmet30

        would make short work of a negro welfare recipient.

      • Voice of Reason

        Does anyone realize that this is effectively half frangible half solid? These are not good for home defense unless you don’t care about anyone in the house but yourself.

    2. REB

      Seems like overkill…kinda expensive if its CNC machined?…Ill stick with lead myself…even though this may be a first step in eliminating lead bullets…2cents

      • jerrytbg

        Agreed…going to be pricy…I’ll bet it’ll be around $4 per…
        That is until some legislation comes along banning them for civilian usage…let’s see what happens…

        • TimTheCrusader

          I also have to wonder if those jagged edges will get hung up on the feed ramp. I’ll stick with my Federal Hi-Shoks for now.

          • Faith of the fallen

            ^^^^ I think this round is a lot of hype. I think I’ll stick with +p HST or +p gold dots for my 9mm’s and 45’s.

          • jerrytbg

            Except maybe those that will eat anything… 🙂

        • BB Stacker

          Yep. Do you all remember the winchester Black Talons of the early 90’s? Got all sorts of flak for the myth of them being cop killers and penetrating body armor. They looked mean, but were comparable to most other hollow point ammo of the time. In many years of shooting and reloading, I have never found a “magic bullet”. Some work better than others, but none work right without shot placement.

          Could this be hyped up to outlaw total copper projectiles?

          Does anyone think that the lead smelter shut down in Missouri will eventually lead to lead shortages? Most bullet manufacturers claim to use recycled lead in their operations, but recycled lead has to come from lead ore at some point. Future shortage, or higher prices? Let me know what you guys think about this. That is my conspiracy theory of the day: outlaw copper bullets to coincide with a lead shortage or price spike.

          • jerrytbg

            That’s a mighty large “can o worms” you’ve opened up there…

            The prospects are frightening… backdoor to their goals..

          • .02

            Check out the barnes, they are similar and work well. I have some I use in my muzzy and they are wicked.

          • Warchild Dammit

            What do I think BB,ammo reasonably priced online right now,as in now!Buy,melt your credit card/whatever you can do to stock up!Damn,perhaps need to re install my tin foil hat again!

            • BB Stacker

              Ha ha! I know what you mean, not big into conspiracy theories but this ammo seems to have, pardon the pun, a large target on it with the name they chose. I could just imagine how the MSM will play it up when the first person gets popped with one. Ammo and reloading components I’m good on for now.

              Sorry Mac, just noticed you mentioned the Black Talons on the last paragraph. I could see the outcome of a similar situation being much worse this time round.

              • guero

                I still haven’t seen a single round of 22lr for sale here (WV) since 2012. Plenty of shotgun and centerfire pistol and rifle ammo, though.

          • Smokey

            The lead smelter shut down has been debunked as a conspiracy, we import much of our lead.

            • George Zimmerman

              Que the EPA ban onimporting lead. Saveеру здфтуею

          • Mark Smith

            @ BB Stacker

            Kudos on all points.

            One addendum—Black Talon had a tiny marginal edge (pun intended) in the last few centimeters of tissue travel. The sharp petals could cut vessels that would have only been pushed out of the way or crushed by blunt petals of competitors projectiles—a very small marginal benefit.

            As I underscored above, shot placement is the predominant key to lethality.

            Practice, practice, practice.

        • TNick

          $45. for a box of 25 in 9mil …supposed to be available end of this month????

    3. 10mm

      These will not penetrate kevlar etc.

      • Hunter

        For pistols/revolvers mostly…

        If you’re a reloader & possess a small lathe also…buy some 6-10ft lengths of delron rod (nylon plastic type).
        Turn down to correct/needed dia, sharpen or small-radius the nose & cut to length & slightly bevel the base…load into brass w/ a case full of Bullseye or Blue-dot powder….and WA-LA…you have a projectile that will penetrate damn near any Kevlar vest & destroy the vitals of the THUG wearing it, by disintegrating inside the body cavity, after zipping thru the vest.

        ..I got the idea from “Henry Bowman” (see the book: “Unintended Consequences”)

        effective range = very short! As projectile will not travel beyond ~100m due to its very light weight***
        lethal range = estimated 80-100ft, very safe for use in the house w/o worrying about over-penetration issues!


        ***am considering an experiment using a 4″ barrel .357mag as the test mule, followed by a 9mm Browning.

        1.) Delron projectile length to equal that of heaviest metal projectile sold per given caliber…

        2.) Nose sharpened…

        3.) Base bored/drilled (per center-line) to diameter, to allow for tight fit insertion of small common ‘fishing split-shot lead weight(s)’..say one behind the other & seal base w/ std copper (commercial) cup…

        4.) Stage one testing would be “on paper” to check for ‘key-holing’ at 10-20-30ft ranges…(bullet flight stability testing) and accuracy/grouping.

        5.) If #4 = good! Tests via ballistic gelatin at same ranges..

        6.) Would like to do the above sans the fishing weights, but using liquid mercury instead..but the epa types would likely frown much!

        ..just thinkin’..

        Any other ideas guys?

        • Warchild Dammit

          Hunter,you have to say the least sparked my interest,will research this a bit,better then say 70% steel core penetration of armor do you think?

          • RickInOregon

            A few years ago there were some teflon coated bronze bullets that came out and were quickly outlawed. They would pass through just about anything. I remember seeing a video of a vest folded over and placed in front of a stack of phone books and shot with a hand gun. The bullet went through the folded over vest (four layers of vest) and then traveled through a few phone books before stopping. This bullet make the vest that the cops wear no more protective than a sheet of paper. This bullet fired from a hand gun would pass through all but the engine block of a car. I think the caliber that was used was a 357.

            • SWFL

              KTW. I still have some. You need a fairly long barrel as much of the penetration is velocity-dependent. The resulting wound-channel was comparable to an ice pick puncture when seen in the ER (unless it yawed or started tumbling). Where I live they are illegal to have if loaded into a magazine or firearm. I think it is a stupid law but I don’t feel inconvenienced by it. If I have to shoot and think someone might be wearing armor I would rather shoot around it than poke them with a knitting needle through it. There are lots of bones and blood vessels not covered by a concealable vest. Hips and thighs are relatively slow-moving even on an advancing target.

        • Hunter

          -addendum to above-

          Have considered using a standard 45gr/.22cal TNT insert into base of Delron projectile.

          Note: the purpose of such experimentation is to design home produced pistol caliber ammo, capable of penetrating world-class Kevlar vests…

          ..which are increasingly being worn by criminal elements nowadays (see recent home invasions for details)..

          ..and achieve near “one-shot stopping power” additional ‘lethal’ range beyond that of pure solid Delron.

          ..again, just thinkin’..

          • Warchild Dammit

            Keep thinking!

          • BB Stacker

            I like your thinkin. I think you’re on to something with inserting a small diameter/light weight projectile into the delrin rod. Just thinking out loud, would you need to machine the rod a little small on the diameter? Say .355 (or less) for the 357 load? I know delrin has a low coeffecient of friction, but how much “give” does it have to contact the lands/grooves of the barrel? Would too tight of a chamber barrel tolerance cause an overpressure situation with just a light load of blue dot? Got me thinkin now too Hunter.

            • Hunter


              I think a tiny bit undersized projectile diameter would be a good thing…especially when intended for use in a I anticipate some deformation to occur once the projectile enters the forcing-cone area at the entrance of the barrel mouth..

              That said..I have tested non-sabot delron rounds at standard .357 dia w/o problems, in the past..

              ..also, experienced a few cycling issues w/ 9mm @ .355 dia which I attributed to slide weight/inertia vs. projectile velocity/barrel exit time..and/or too small a powder charge!

              ..the autos will require more experimentation to get the load data/projectile parameters down pat, but I think using Bullseye (very fast burning powder) will help also..maybe a tighter roll-crimp too.

              ..working from scratch & doing the lathe work myself has been very time consuming..all loading has been w/ a “Rock-crusher” single stage.

              ..if you come up w/ something..your/any input would be much appreciated here!!!

            • RickInOregon

              Anything that you insert into the delrin would need to be perfectly on center and balanced. The bullet spins as it leaves the gun, out of balance and it will disintegrate rather quickly or have the trajectory of a bottle rocket.

              • SWFL

                It would also need to be forward of the center-of-gravity or the projectile would tend to tumble before reaching the target. What about a brass rod inserted from the tip,almost to the base? You might be able to get your 45gr or so with a 3/4 length piece of the right diameter. Sort of a sabot-ed flechette that would separate and destabilize/deform after the delrin suddenly slowed on impact.
                This is an interesting academic project. I would like to hear how it turns out.

          • Hunter

            –addendum #2 to above–

            ..and to Warchild Dammit!!!


            NOTE: both .357 & 9mm are high velocity cartridges, by design (excluding 147gr 9mm).

            Delron is much, much lighter than lead, plus it is self-lubricating & harder than pure teflon(a plus in this case)..thus velocities will be very, very high, but cannot be measured via my chronograph, as there is no metallic content in the projectile!

            ..hence my “just thinkin’ ideas”..


            In theory, the fishing-weight split-shot would “open up & separate” once penetration is achieved, due to both velocity and centripetal(rotational)forces/momentum & destruction of the Delron sabot.

            ..although, I suspect its gonna take lots of experimenting on my part to get that one right..due to balancing/finding the center of gravity, per inertia of the bullet..both on its longitudinal and rotational axis…

            ..thus the 45gr. TNT insert idea(see Speer for TNT) leaning towards this hypothesis first, because:

            ..the TNT round has a very thin jacket and its widely available to reloaders, plus it expands like crazy and damn near completely ruptures when hitting bone(proven by me on coyotes)!


            I’m gonna do this, WD..come spring, ’tis too effing cold right now..have the equipment/machines…buddy has the Delron supplier I’ve used in the past.

            ..I’ll probably ‘score/cut’ the jacket to help with expansion..

            ..will photo-document process when perfected..maybe Mac will allow slide-show/video..if ideas are successful.


            ..per your steel insert idea, you got me thinkin’ again..along the lines of Zippo lighter-flint sized behind the other!

            Thanks much, bro’!!!!

        • Paranoid

          Submit you might consider getting some of the Flechettes the gov makes, they come in several sizes. They are all to long for use but cut off and inserted into a sabot they should penetrate any soft armor. That was why they outlawed the 17 Cal AP, it worked

    4. smokey

      You only shoot to immediately terminate a hostile threat. This frangible ammo is just going to ensure an assailant remains a functional threat until he shuts down.

      Stick with what works, nothing beats a simple hollow point that retains its mass.

      • 1braveheart

        Smokey, AMEN to your comments. No matter what caliber you’re using, shot placement is everything. Any bullet placed in the proper area will get the job done.

        • Be informed

          @ braveheart. You know in the previous article eisenkreuz is at it again saying that wives need to be beaten to keep them in line. I can say this is one of the most disgusting and sickening things he has said on this site. Wives and girfriends that are supportive and good to their husbands and boyfriends are one of the most valuable assets that any guy could ever have. Someone that stands behind you thick and thin, and this character says they need to be beaten to be obedient. That a firm hand keeps them in line. This was on comment 2923909.

          This is something that shows something about him that all of us should know, this person is way off. I think of these beautiful wives that are the foundation for their strong husbands and how lucky someone is to be with such a person. Then this character says something like this. I bet this must really irritate you as well as anyone else that read this pure garbage.

          • 1braveheart

            BI, I hear you loud an clear about eisen. I will confess that I cannot stand him. I have no use for him. He never contributes anything good or meaningful or positive to any of our discussions. To me, he is a totally useless POS. I believe everyone else here would agree with me. I really wish he would just go away. I wish I could just ignore him and the other trolls, but how? I’ve noticed he has especially gotten under your skin in the last few articles. I really don’t see how he gets thru life being like he is. I’d rather be dead than to be anything like him. when I get up in the morning, I have to look at myself in the mirror. How eisen manages to live with himself I’ll never know.

            • Hunter

              Braveheart & B.I-


              That said, I suspect you’re both missing/overlooking one very small, but very important detail per Eisen-fill-in-the-blank:

              That being:

              …both of you (men) & many here, have had/has the gift of a “REAL WOMAN” in your one time or currently (BH, my profound sympathies too you, sir)!!!!

              ..I suspect Eisen…has NEVER HAD ONE!!!
              ..his conquests/playmates, are what we would call “WHORES”….or “cum dumpsters”.

              ..thus, totally explains his “frame of reference” per beating the opposite sex.


              ..sad, isn’t it????!!!!

              • Smokey

                A while back he was touting SHTF as the opportunity to acquire a harem.

                So it’s clear to most of us that this is not going to be one of the people who are going to help to rebuild our country and society when it is necessary.

                • sixpack

                  eisen couldn’t get the clap without an instruction manual and ready-made templates.

                • Eisenkreuz

                  Did you read SELCO saying

                  “the very worst people are going to be in charge when SHTF. if you think about some good vs. evil struggle forget it.”

              • Rich

                My guess is eisen is a slack jawed, wire rim glass wearing, candy ass! Most likely sitting in a coffee house somewhere in San Fransisco using their free wifi. He’ll most likely end up part of a harem post shtf. Working for one of the heavy hitting street thugs that will be in charge:-)

                • Walt Kowalski

                  I see him more as a pimple-faced, pencil-necked, lard-butt sitting in his mommy’s basement, where he watches porn all day fantasizing about women he’ll never have.

              • 1braveheart

                Hunter, you make an excellent point and I don’t blame women for avoiding eisen.

            • Eisenkreuz

              You fucking son of a bitch Ive told you multiple times that someone is using my screen name you fucking asshole. Fuck you BI you wrinkled old shits are so obsessed with sex and shoving your family values down everyones throats. Hedonism is cool.

              • Be informed

                @ Eisencrudes. NO, you definition of hedonism, pleasures of life is at the expense of others. This is what satanism is, selfish pleasure no matter how many people or destroy in the process.

                • Dave in ID

                  ALL was quiet and eisen had not posted anything on this thread until th BI/BH brothers brought his name up with a rant similar to eisen’s.

                • Be informed

                  @ Dave in ID. It was that eisen comment about beating women and keeping them in line with being totally obedient that set me off. It reminded me off this poor women that I remembered years ago that was studying to be a veterinarian. Her husband made her wear thrift shop clothes while he indulged himself in nightly alcohol binges. I can still recall the deep anguish and pain that she projected. She would hide her bruises. The guy was a funny person, but it was not funny the utter agony that is wife was going through. I don’t think she ever completed here study.

                  Then this nut, that wishes everyone over 50 will die off. starts rambling how good women need to be controlled by physical force. I was going to leave eisencrude alone until I saw this. I got sick when I read this. I don’t know if you have been here that long, but every couple of weeks or so eisencrap goes on these tangents about how much he hates everything. He wishes that everyone over 50 death as quickly as possible. It is all there in past lunatic rants. Braveheart and I are just people that get sick and tired of this garbage on such a good site and try top put a stop to it. It is not like NC Joker that posts one of two idiotic comments that get collapsed. This eisencrap posts a couple dozen or more rants throughout the article on more than occassionally. Seriously, read some of these from the months past, hate for people over 50, hate for women, hate for anything that he disagrees with. Not a decent conversation, just hateful names that you would only expect from the very uneducated hick that is portrays me and anyone that doesn’t subscribe exactly to his “thoughts”, if that is what you can call it.

                  A bully is someone that is ONLY stopped when they are put into their place. Eisencrude is a bully and many people don;t post comments because of these type of nuts that go way past NC Joker, finx, or other trolls. This esienwaste targets anyone and everyone. Backing down to such an insane smoking POS only gives them more power. Sorry if this calling out a retarded bully has upset you and others, this has never been the intention.

              • buttcrackofdoom

                eisencant, you make a lot of sense, if we don’t stop and THINK about it.

              • Sgt. Dale

                Change you handle.

          • George Zimmerman

            The guy writes things lke that to push your buttons. Looks like it worked, BI.

    5. oUCH

      Just plain silly….

    6. KY Mom

      If this is a superior bullet, then federal agencies will be ordering them.

      DHS, the Social Security Administration, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), etc. may want to add some to their stockpile.

      • Jr

        … and you forgot the National Girl Scout Inspection Agency, the Federal Granny Anti-Terror Force (developed to stop terrorist grannies over 90), the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, Fast & Furious, and several other new agencies – all costing $500 billion. A small price, I say, to protect our safety, wouldn’t you agree?

      • SWFL

        Leaving reliable, proven ammo for the rest of us.

    7. KY Mom

      Consumer ‘financial protection’ bureau collecting info on 991 MILLION American credit card accounts

      “It was also learned at a Congressional hearing Tuesday that CFPB officials are working with the Federal Housing Finance Agency on a second data-mining effort, this one focused on the 53 million residential mortgages taken out by Americans since 1998.”

    8. G19TMBRWLF

      Shot placement -for any type of bullet- is what kills. There is no such thing as a “magic bullet.” No type of ammo can replace the need for practic, practice and more practice. Being able to hit vital areas (center mass/head shots) while under “life threatening stess” is what will save your’s and your loved ones lives.

      • Canadian Vet

        Amen to that.

        A subsonic copper-plated .22lr round in the right spot will end a threat but a miss with a .44 magnum is still a miss and the only guaranteed damage it will cause is going to be some ringing in the ears.

        And should CCW be allowed for the ” little people” here in Canada, I most likely would stick with American Eagle full-metal rounds both for my 1911 and my P225. Why? Because it is what I have always been shooting and it know how these rounds behave and they will cycle reliably 100% of the time. And these factors alone make them more desirable to me than any Gold Dot or these newfangled projectiles.

        • Truth avenger

          When more “shooters” understand your basic and simple premise, basic confidence will accelerate. NO MAN alive can survive my .22 hollow point accurately placed.

          Anyone that disagrees is welcome to sign a waiver and “come get some”!!!!!! Still prefer my .308 for WAY down range.

          • OutWest

            Canadian Vet — old military saying:

            “They all fall to hardball”.

          • 1braveheart

            Truth avenger, I have 3 .22s myself and wouldn’t give them up for anything.

          • The Old Coach

            Such overconfidence will get you killed. Placing a .22 RF bullet into the very, very small kill zones on a perp will be next to impossible in the heat of a fight. You are moving, target is moving, you are hyped on adrenaline, and in those circumstances you are lucky to hit a dinner plate.
            There are hundreds if not thousands of cases where a head shot with a .22 on a man simply glanced off his skull. Heavy winter clothing will stop a .22, or slow it down enough to minimize effect on the body. IN NO WAY can a .22RF reliably stop a determined perp. Heck, you read about guys cranked on bath salts and meth absorbing half a dozen or more 9mm rounds with little effect, which is why cops carry .40s.

            • Canadian Vet

              At no time was I suggesting .22lr is an effective self-defence round. I was only trying to emphasize shot placement being more important than the caliber or the design of the bullet.

              Two rounds in the pump and one in the head with 9mm FMJ will always trump a miss with a .40 JHP. There is simply no way to argue against that.

              • The Old Coach

                OK, I accept that, CV. Also will never argue that shot placement isn’t crucial no matter what. Just a lot less crucial if the round has some wallop to it. Disable zone with a .40 is dinner-plate size. Disable zones with .22 are no bigger than a quarter, if that.

                OK as an assassin’s tool at 12 inches range, or 50 feet with a suppressed 1 MOA rifle. Not otherwise. Me, I’d like subsonic 200 grain SWC out of a .38/.357 single shot for that kind of thing. The whole Whisper concept, y’know.

            • Truth avenger

              Who said anything about “one shot”. Hell, I’ll get an RPG for “one shot” reliability. All my .22 LR’s pack a minimum 25 round mag!

        • eppe

          A .22lr hp with a garlic tip will take them out even if skimmed…

      • 1braveheart

        AMEN to your comments. Shot placement is everything regardless of what caliber you’re using.

    9. Kulafarmer

      What do we need these for?
      Dont we just dial 911 and wait for help?

      • .02

        Shelter in place and let the authorities handle it. You are not to be trusted with your own defense. Big Brother is you savior and protector. All hail the New World Order.

        • WARFACE

          Yes..we are ALL to stupid and child-like to be trusted to defend ourselves….from the overlords who have armed guards…I have a Kimber Raptor 11 at my bedside and that bad mofo has yet to shoot me of its own accord…whats up with that? I put up a sign in my yard that says NO CRIME ALLOWED…now I am safe!?

          • Warchild Dammit

            War,Kimber has yet to shoot you?!Just wait,one late dinner/missed phone call,you have no idea what you are in for then!

        • Sgt. Dale

          I had to go thru the annual school safety check for active shooter. What joke. glass every where, no way to lock a doors. worst of all no guns on school grounds!

          Shelter in Place. BULL SHIT!!! have several well armed and TRAINED teacher and staff. This is the only way around it.

          The bad guy might get into the school with a gun and might get off one shot. Some one would punch his/her clock real quick.

          As I was typing this I was thinking hells bells they could next time for a false flag use chemicals. But then again they are after out guns not the Bleach, and other items we have in the house.

          My mind thinks of these things so that I can react to them to save lives.

          An old Cop once told me to catch a burglar you have to think like a burglar. We do this in all police work.
          I wish some of my LEO friends would think like a nice guy so you can meet a nice guy.

          • KY Mom

            Sgt. Dale,

            Just your presence here has let many people know there are good police.

            We have good police here.

            Be safe. May God bless and guide you.
            KY Mom

    10. Socrates

      Right now ATK (Federal) has the big contract to supply top of the line HST Tactical hollow point rounds to the gov (DHS).
      They are mass produced and extremely deadly.

      Example: one 230gr HST Bonded .45 ACP round will penetrate 13 inches and open up over 1″ in dia. while retaining ALL of it’s weight. The bonded variety will penetrate car doors, helmets, windshields and other barriers.

      The G2 R.I.P. bullets are impressive, but from a cost standpoint, are quite prohibitive. The HST rounds ARE listed on the DOJ threat index for body armour “issues’ as well. This means if you get shot by one, you are in big trouble…or just dead.

      The body armor standards are listed here:

      • The Old Coach

        Noting that this fancy bullet weighs just 96 grains. Less than half the typical 230 grain .45ACP bullet. More in line with a .380 or even .32 S&W Long. This will have to be loaded to much higher velocity, so the gun won’t shoot to the same point of impact as regular hardball will.

        • Sgt. Dale

          Very good point. I think that the 96 gr. was for the 9mm. That is about 25/50 grs. lower that the standard round.
          I believe when they come out with the 45ACP it is going to weigh more but at this rate it is only going to be around 150Gr.or so.
          At 7 to 10 yards it won’t make much of difference but any further back it will.
          My 7.62×25 out of my PPS FMJ I was told will penetrate a vest. I don’t know if this true! It shoots a 85/95 grain bullet.
          I’m old school and I’ll stick with my 230 FMJ & HP out of my 45 & 115 & 125 Gr. FMJ & HP. out of my 9MM for long term survival.

          • The Old Coach

            My limited understanding of vest penetration is that a projectiles that penetrate have high sectional density, regardless of overall weight. This gadget projectile seems designed to be the opposite, it splits into a bunch of pieces on first contact, with the petals going off at an angle, and in the video you can see that the only thing going straight is the core, which is now a collar-button having very low sectional density.

            Your thoughts?

    11. Warchild Dammit!

      More then 2 bucks a round,did some reading on it a few days back and really was not too impressed with what I saw,only round I had would then immediately learn to love!Till then though,will pass,rather real steel core copper jackets myself.

      • Kulafarmer


      • The Old Coach

        Yeah, yeah, yeah. SSDD from Faber.

      • posseecom

        KY Mom

        I’d not be purchasing treasuries even if I had the dough to do
        Faber has been sounding alarms now for how long..??

        The likes of Sprott,Willie,Sinclair,Schiff,AGXIIK,et al are all sitting quite well financially across the globe..espousing so called insider advice to their subscribers,readers, and followers..

        Anyone who is fortunate enough to have paper assets would well be advised to liquidate into tangible physical assets asap..

        The financial markets are a well rigged game ..some win many lose all the time..

        The system is obviously leveraged beyond belief..just a matter of when the house of cards comes tumbling down..

        Yellen has her fingers on the pulse now..and no one knows what schemes she and all her ilk have in play for the rest of us worldwide..

        They will continue this charade as the markets fluctuate reaping billions in profit be it up or down daily..

        Enjoy your links as always


        • KY Mom


          I wouldn’t purchase treasuries either.

          I agree the financial markets are heavily rigged. The financial system is on life support, yet the feds still claim, “No worries and all is well.”

          Re: “Anyone who is fortunate enough to have paper assets would well be advised to liquidate into tangible physical assets asap.”

          I agree. Those who only have ‘paper assets’ are not going to be happy when it all unravels.

          My gut feeling tells me there is are major problems brewing in the financial systems of the world. The scary part is they are all interconnected.

          Take care.
          KY Mom

          • The Old Coach

            They are lining up to force you to buy Treasuries, KY Mom. Read up on that MyRA proposal in the Halfrican Dictator’s speech. First they get that set up, then they force you to switch your IRA/401k accounts into the MyRA. I’ll give them credit for clever marketing, but in the end it’ll be Poland and Argentina.

    12. Indy Colts

      These need a little more real life experience like barrier and denim peneration tests in order to be a viable SD ammo.

      95 grains is very small and may not function in all firearms. Reliability is king in my book so I still with the reputable companies when my life is on the line.

      If this design is innovative and works, all major ammo brands will come up with a similar round.

    13. I'll think of one

      It likely will not handle heavy clothing well let alone anything more substantial like auto glass or tires.

      Not that I really anticipate having to stop some enraged driver trying to kill me but still I’d rather carry a good all purpose round like the Bonded Rangers or even HST’s.

      • Indy Colts

        @I’ll think of one:

        I’ve never once seen rangers at a gun shop or in stock online. I carry 147 +p HST because they cycle perfectly in my glock 19. I also keep hornady critical duty 135 +P, XTP rounds,golden sabers, and remmington HTP 147.

        Subsonic rounds are better in a closed environment like a home. Hornady is also supposed to have a lower muzzle flash. HST will always be my carry round until I see something that flowers better.

        I heard the FBI switched to winchester pdx1 but they haven’t been out long enough for me to trust.

        Any quality JHP is good now days. I stay away from the exotics that are super hot because I’ve heard stories of cycle issues plus they usually cost more.

        • Warchild Dammit

          I am all for ammo one has used/tested/and comfortable with.That said,any ammo I have available will learn to love in tough times!

          • Indy Colts


            I work with a guy who bought a new Springfield xd and has been carrying it for months and hasn’t even shot it !!! Then he tells me held using some +p+ round some guy gave him!! WTH is wrong with people. That can get you kil led.

            We bought my wife a Taurus pt 709 and it had light strikes out of the box and had to go back to the factory. I can’t imagine carrying something I never tested.

            • The Old Coach

              Like uncle Ned who bought a nickel plated S&W .38 in 1934 and left it in a drawer unfired until he died, that gun will become a valuable collector’s item one day…….

            • Warchild Dammit!

              That is nuts but rather have a gun never used then no gun at all.Some areas very tough to shoot if your are closer to big towns/cities and ranges full,even then you get on a local shooting community forum one can usually get a little help finding a place to get familiar with a new tool,hope your bud finds the time/place,hell,take him out yourself but stay well behind till he gets some practice.I will next month or two be taking a few guys with new rifles and no experiance to some family land,though not a instructor better then nothing to get em a little comfortable,am also going to nudge em to a appleseed shoot day clinic later when they start in Spring,there they will get pros to really get em a good foundation.

            • Sgt. Dale

              Is this guy carrying as cop or a civilian?
              If he is a cop he has to qualify with that weapon & his Sgt. should kicking him in the Butt, for carrying it with out qualifying.
              If he is civilian find him slap him upside the head and drag him to a range so he doesn’t kill himself or a family member. PLEASE
              Some people are so DUMB!!!!

              • The Old Coach

                Amen !

      • ready down under

        I have a box of 9mm Geco rounds in my collection – close to identical to these. Cant remember the exact bullet weight but I think about 72Grains at 1700/1800fps from 4″ barrel. Go like stink. Have a rounded plastic tip to give them the same profile as a FMJ which breaks up and disappears on impact and the leading edge is a real cookie cutter jagged edge. They have a 1/16″ hole right through the middle and a plastic base wad. All copper, no lead. Just goes to show there is nothing new – these appear to be the same principle.


        • SWFL

          I think that is another issue of what I knew as B(litz)A(ction)T(rauma) rounds here in the 80’s. They were sold loose in an MTM plastic magazine protector case or in a clear plastic bag with a card insert. To police only (by company policy)if I remember correctly.

          • Sgt. Dale

            You are right.
            As for me I didn’t like them. No very accurate. Had some jams. shot out of S&W 459, Sig 226, Ber. 92.

    14. Be informed

      Atlanta is a golden example of just how Mother Nature with only 2 and 1/2 inches of snow can screw up life. The people there don;t have snow tires like in the north, no studded tires, no chains. The city doesn’t want to spend the money to be prepared for the times WHEN something like this happens. It is up to the person to be ready for WHEN these events occur that no one expects.

      It is now day 6 since the proposed possible beginning of the end of the economy. Dow fell 190 today. If everything is still afloat if that number hits 100, it could go a lot longer before the economy gets real bad. The counter is on and clicking.

      • NC joe

        This comment is so asinine. I am sure if Atlanta decided to sink millions into snow preps, you would be the first to scream about a waste of money on items which will be used infrequently.

        • Be informed

          No NC Joker, our tax money should be spent on more welfare instead of highway safety for those tax paying contributors that are commuting to jobs that pays for the government. No, the people that are keeping the country barely afloat don’t deserve safe passage to their jobs. Let’s just use that money for higher welfare benefits so BO and his cronies can’t hold that over the voters so they can continue to be re-elected again and again. No let’s not keep the people earning incomes safe, let’s keep the bribes going to get your liberal friends in office. Right Joker?

        • 1braveheart

          ncjoe, every time you open your stupid mouth is breath wasted, so go away.

        • Kevin2

          One has to question how frequently all that military hardware that Police Departments have been getting are being used?

          Sooner or later its going to snow but still they have no plow. Its reasonable to assume that they believe sooner or later those armored vehicles, fully automatic weapons and other gear will be used. They have money for that.

      • Canadian Vet

        Hey, even in my neck of the woods weather we are used to can cause major issues. Right now, Ontario’s main east-west axis, the 401, is practically impassable between at least Morrisburg and Toronto.

        And with severe weather warning west of us, I’m making sure we are ready for a loss of power or to be shut-in for a while. Always helps to top things off and avoid digging into our long-term stores.

        • Warchild Dammit

          CV,my only thought would be if you are getting stuff near a potential go bad point may be good to dig into supplies,so far for most part am good date wise(both date fronts,thanks again Cass!)but do keep a eye on things,use storms ect. to get me to eyeball supplies ect. to maintain a peace of mind and perhaps say time to use some stuff and resupply.

          • Canadian Vet

            I’m not overly worried about a long-term weather-related situation. Around here we have a pretty robust system for dealing with snow, ice and the problems they cause. However it can easily take a week following a major storm to get things fully sorted out.

            So I’d rather stock up on regular supplies ahead of the problem than dig into the long-term stores.

            Just a personal preference.

            • 1braveheart

              Canadian Vet, when I lived in Florida, during hurricane season, I always topped off my regular food supplies instead of digging into the long-term stores, regardless of what happened. I agree that is the way to do it. I still do that to this day.

            • Warchild Dammit

              Agree with short term stock up unless some stuff getting dated,you know weather is gonna suck for a week or more/are warned/and still whine because you are out in the cold supply wise,well,that just drives me nuts.I just like to keep checking dates on some longer term storage stuff,nasty weather tends to get me on it,along with thinking firewood(2 years even with donating some)but always feel never have enuff,which is ok as keeps me motivated.

        • JayJay

          You can never be ready as I am learning this week.
          Our propane company won’t answer the phone(we are at 30% on the meter).
          Our electric heat pump used $12 of juice this morning for JUST 6 hours; so on a day and night as we have had for the last 2 days, that’s $48 each day.
          After I turned the propane heater down low, I turned the heat pump off, then got out 2 little heaters for the den, where I live! 🙂 and the bedroom.
          Cost for the little heaters???? $2.75 for 15 hours!!
          Now that, I can live with.
          Next year, we WILL fill the propane tank every time we use 100 gallons. This is the first time this has ever happened.
          My neighbors on both sides removed their gas tanks from their yards.
          I hope they both have savings with this weather causing $48 dollar usage.

          • JayJay

            $48 dollar usage daily.

            • Shootit

              Wow! I can run my generator for less than $48.

          • The Old Coach

            Your heat pump was running its’ backup resistance coils, I’ll bet. Too cold for a pump to work normally, these last few days.

    15. jim in Va.

      Watch the video first. If you’re shooting someone you shoot to kill,the difference in the bullet shouldn’t make any difference. Ir you’re sued you might as well use the best ammo available.

    16. Chir

      Brutally efficient and a downright brilliant innovation. I expect it to be outlawed immediately. I expect the maker to be contracted with government agencies so only our government has access to such rounds.

      • Warchild Dammit!

        And thus when outlawed will create another cottage industry if there is a demand for the round,tis a good thing in this economy that is floundering!

      • Indy Colts

        I also love the fact it doesn’t use lead!!

    17. NC joe

      Yes, you use this ammo for your version of self-defense. But guess who else could and probably will be using it? That’s right, the criminal you are defending yourself from. Except, the criminal is not bound by the concept of self defense but has a shoot first when they can’t see it mentality.
      This article is just another that shows the true colors of its owner. He is nothing but a stooge for the gun and ammo industry. He, and the manufacturer of these rounds are laughing all the way to the bank at you sheeple. The bullet maker especially sine the maker is getting money from you to defend yourself from the criminal element and the criminal element.

      • 1braveheart


      • Smokey

        Yes, Joe, the maker of this ammo will earn a profit on sales. You have a firm grasp of the obvious.

        So, what was your silly point, exactly?

      • Canadian Vet

        Reminds me of a quote by Nicholas Cage in Lord of War.

        “i don’t want people dead, Agent Valentine. I don’t put a gun to anybody’s head and make them shoot. But shooting is better for business. But, I prefer people to fire my guns and miss. Just as long as they are firing. Can I go now?”

        The makers of this ammunition definitely want people to buy it and use it so they make money. Why else go into business in the first place?

    18. KY Mom

      IRA Confiscation: It’s Happening

      “In 2009, the government’s net worth was negative $11.45 trillion. By 2010, it had dropped to minus $13.47 trillion. By 2011, minus $14.78 trillion. And by 2012, minus $16.1 trillion.”

      “…according to the IRS, there is well over $5 trillion in US individual retirement accounts. For a government as bankrupt as Uncle Sam is, $5 trillion is irresistible.
      They need that money. They need YOUR money. And this MyRA program is the critical first step to corralling your hard earned retirement funds.”

      Video link – Jim Rogers and Ron Paul on IRA confiscation

      Sovereign Man dot com

        • Dave in ID

          You got a drum with your Saiga? I see them at the gun shows around here sometimes.

    19. slingshot

      1260fps. in 9mm.

      Will your pistol handle the barrel pressure? Most 9mm is about 1050fps. Have shot 9mm NATO 1200fps and it gives a heavy recoil.

      • jerrytbg

        This may come as a surprise but the HighPoint 995 is P rated…
        I wouldn’t be surprised, with a polished feed ramp, it would love this round…and it may even achieve 1500’/sec +…

      • Dave in ID

        125grain bullet with 8.8 grains of blue dot. 1233fps. Runs through a glock all day. Keep the pressures below 35000cup. Dont seat the bullet too deep or have a crimp too loose where the bullet seat themselves deeper in the feeding cycle as the pressures will dramatically(spelling? like I give a F) increase.

        • Sgt. Dale

          This is one of my favorite loads for my 9 MM H.P. slugs.

    20. Rocket man

      EFP: explosively formed penetrator type IED uses a copper disc in front of the blast wave. Sure would like to see test results of this round against different materials.

    21. joe america

      My local county sheriff department has a conceal carry class each month. They do q an a on what to do or not do in a self defense situation. They tell folks over and over that if the citizen doesn’t feel threatened enough to completely stop the threat, they shouldn’t shoot at all. Shooting to wound is not advised. I don’t know much about these rounds, but I do recommend getting the best rounds within budget. The shooter is responsible for each round fired, so firing the least amount possible makes sense.

    22. TG

      DHS will be buying another billion rounds of this shit just to keep it off the streets…Sorry the DHS will be spending millions of our tax dollars just to keep this shit off the streets.

    23. Warchild Dammit!

      To those interested in esoteric ammo check out the hexolit shot gun shells,seems to have a hell of a expanding damage range but about ,hmm…..,2 bucks a round.

    24. Logicrazy

      1.50 in dimes out of a high brass 12 ga. DOA

    25. watching and waiting

      Each his own but personally I would not buy this type of ammo. Nothing against the producer but there is enough anti-gun pressure/words as it is.

      Would be interested however in any test results against available body armor.

    26. Mark

      Well….. any piece of metal going through my body is going to suck… BIG TIME. This thing looks devastating. I would like to know the cost. I have trouble hitting the broad side of a barn, so if I just caught a wrist, Mr Attacker is going to be in a world of hurt.

      My main thoughts are always directed to DHS, not a robber. What are the odds that the former is going to be more of a threat than the latter?

    27. Be informed

      @ NC Joker. Call my comment asinine about being prepared in Atlanta? How many millions of dollars in lost revenue, accidents and law suits, and just plain misery with something that can be prevented. You just don’t get it do you? You have everything on on hand for the weather. It can sit there for a long time until you need it. Just like preparations for when you need them after a SHTF event. I forgot, the government will take care of us all, right Joker? We don’t need to prepare do we? Items are eventually used. I am not talking about stocking up on road salt in Key West, I am talking about keeping a stockpile of safety items that WILL BE used. Why are you even on this site in which people understand the necessity of putting away for a rainy day?

      DUH Joker, Atlanta is at 34 degrees in latitude, they get snow down to 28 degrees in latitude in the south. DUH Joker, Atlanta averages 2 inches of snow a year. DUH Joker, on Jan.23, 1940 Atlanta got 10 inches of snow. Do you know what 10 inches of snow would do now? Duh, and I mean DUH Joker, in February of 1899 Atlanta dropped to -9 F. Do you know what the road conditions are like when there has been snow at sub zero without the roads being treated, with people that don’t have snow tires? Most cold waves like this occur AFTER a snowfall, which means hard frozen ice on the roads. You need to wake up and understand what the prepper/survivalist motto is, BE READY!

      • 1braveheart

        BI, AMEN on your comments to ncjoker.

    28. PO'd Patriot

      YAWN…..I’ve heard this magic bullet crap so many times it ain’t funny. The best one was the 125gr. jacketed hollow point designed for the FBI, aka the “Treasury Round”. Its good, but it wasn’t no magic bullet. More people have been sent to their maker by the lowly .22 round more than any other. Why you ask? Because its the most common and because of the mild recoil, most people hit what their aiming at, which is very, very important. You want to trump everybody at the OK Corral? Leave the pistol in the holster and carry your carbine/rifle.

      • Indy Colts

        @PO’d Patroit

        FMJ’s have killed more than any other round. I’m sure a wadcutter had the same hype in its day.

        One reason I use JHP is penetration. FMJ’s in just a 9mm could go through several houses in a neighborhood like mine. Oh course, angles are also to considered.

        • PO'd Patriot

          IC, I’ve always favored a snubbie. Currently I own a S&W 36 chief (nickel), S&W 642+p (DAO, no exposed hammer, titanium, Crisom Trace grips), a 30 year old Charter Arms “undercover” (my wife keeps that on her side of the bed), last but not least, a Taurus 605, 3inch .357 (stainless with bobbed hammer). All of them are fed with Gold Dot 135gr JHP+P that were designed for short barrel revolvers. When I do carry, if its not one of my 1911s, I usually carry the 642 with 125gr+p semi-wadcutters and carry the revolver in my jacket pocket. I would just shoot through the pocket of my jacket. I wouldn’t have to worry about a hollow point getting filled with material from my jacket and becoming ball ammo. The soft lead definitely would expand and depending upon distance, would probably penetrate soft tissue up to 12 inches.

          • Indy Colts

            I agree totally with the soft point. I wish you could find more semi softpoints for semi autos. I have a 20 year old Rossi 38 I keep in the truck loaded with hornady critical defense. It can’t handle +p so jhps are hard to find.

    29. Jayber

      Let’s see: a green bullet designed to create lots of red. Hmm…aren’t they a bit late for Christmas-themed ammo?

      Sick humor and probable high cost aside, this seems like something for the mall ninjas out there. Frankly, with the fragments that thing creates flying all over the place on chaotic trajectories (as seen in the video), it seems that it would be as much a danger to the shooter as the target. Much less any by-standers. Toss in the probable failures to feed and I’ll take a pass.

      Still, that looks to be one heck of a round and I give them solid marks for innovation.

      • Kevin2

        I see it really useful in a 38 J Frame.

        No feed issues.

        You only have 5 rounds so you need them as lethal as they can possibly be stopping the hostilities ASAP.

        I’ll take the risk of a piece of that projectile bouncing off a brick wall at the corner of Third and Nowhere and coming back at me as long as the criminal SOB trying to kill me drops like a rock on one hit.

        • Kevin2

          If given a choice I prefer a Phaser on stun.

          • Kulafarmer

            Light saber and jeddi training me thinks

    30. dan

      If it is used by LEO…then anyone can and should use it….stopping power is what self-defense is all about….this round satisfies that requirement….imho

    31. Satori

      If 3 Inches Of Snow Can Cause This Much Chaos In Atlanta, What Will Economic Collapse Look Like?

      “So if three inches of snow can cause this much chaos in one of our major cities, what will a full-blown economic collapse look like? Most Americans have no idea how fragile our way of life is. In the event of a major natural disaster, a massive EMP blast or a complete economic meltdown, our lives would change very rapidly, and most people are totally unprepared for that.”

      • The Old Coach

        Quote from Borepatch’s blog:

        “Note to gun grabbers in Yankeeland: nobody pulled his heater at the intersection and went all Rambo. As a matter of fact, people banded together, giving each other rides and pushing cars up frozen hills. My neighbor spent 3 hours warning drivers not to turn down a main cut-through street because a hill was frozen and nobody could get up it.”

        At least for the first few hours, peace and cooperation reign. But of course even Atlanteans know that a snow emergency will be over in a day or two. Once the idea that it’s not going to be over sinks in, I reckon the good burghers might change their tune.

    32. CrabbeNebulae

      .308 to the 4head.

    33. Gadabout

      You’d think the very least they would do would be to close the schools in Atlanta. Around here, SE Virginia, they close the schools at even the hint of a coming storm. Last week we had 3 inches and schools were closed for 3 days! Don’t these people listen to the weather reports? Go out if you must, but at least take some supplies in your vehicle – no hats and mittens with a 3 year old!!! People are dumber than I’d thought.

      • JayJay

        **You’d think the very least they would do would be to close the schools in Atlanta**
        From a site I visit:
        Ice storm in Birmigham AL area hit by surprise yesterday. Announcements from schools went out at 11AM that they were sending kids home but it was too late. Buses couldn’t run. Hills everywhere around here started
        accumulating ice. Crashed cars and trucks everywhere and in ditches near every hill and some in streams. I walked 2 hours to pick up daughter at the high school. I got there faster walking then many did sitting stuck in traffic. She has a 4×4 truck and we were able to help others get home. Many stuck in schools, stores, churches, and in cars. Surprised at the number of folks who don’t travel with coats. Many walking without them back home even in high heels in 17 degrees. Daughter now understands why I fuss to always keep the gas tank full and keep blankets and more in the car. Deep freeze to continue until tomorrow.

    34. Kevin2


      “what will a full-blown economic collapse look like?”

      Boo Coo FUGLY.

    35. Jimbo

      Well, Looks to me like the government got just what they wanted. ……lead free ammo. They should be more careful about closing lead smelters.

    36. YH

      I’ll stick to Speer Gold Dot 230gr 45ACP rounds. At least I know that when the SHTF, Gold Dots are a proven man stopper.

    37. Old Vet

      I don’t care if it’s a 17HMR or a 50BMG, all will do the job. IT’S ALL ABOUT SHOT PLACEMENT plain and simple. Know your weapon as you know your own hand, and everything else will take care of its self.

      Practice and more practice. It’s all about SURVIVAL nothing more nothing less.

      It’s your life—make it count! You’re on your own1

      • Sgt. Dale

        Amen Amen Amen!!!!!!

    38. Caliber

      Off topic.. I need advice on what I can do with bricks. I did a job for a guy, moving his bricks, and he said I can keep them. They are the standard, red bricks, about 500 of them.
      from a prepping standpoint, what can I do with these? I live in Florida if that helps. I just don’t wanna waste them

      • JayJay

        Raised beds for tomatoes???
        Brick BBQ??
        Brick mailbox?

      • The Old Coach

        Sad to say, you can’t do much with just 500 bricks. Do the math.

        • Warchild Dammit!

          Oh!Oh!Caliber,think rocket stove!A lot of good sites with info. on building em,just a thought.

      • CrabbeNebulae

        Use them to keep stuff off the ground. I got hold of several 18 wheeler break drums and made a forge out of one and used another for an awesome fire ring. Put three bricks under the edge of the fire ring to keep it off the ground for good air flow. It doesn’t matter whether the bricks are fire bricks or not since you are not using them to line a fire box. If one cracks just replace it. With 500 bricks you will never run out. I use them for this and also to keep my bush hog up off the ground.

        Use them to weight down garden covers, or anything else you don’t want to blow away in a mild breeze. Hell froze over at my house a couple times over the last several weeks and I had to cover some things in the garden. Laid out a double layer of white garden cover and weighted down the edges with bricks.

        Break them into small bats and fill up holes in the drive way.

        Place a couple dozen strategically around the inside of your house, on window sills etc… and use them as a last ditch defensive weapon or…

        Place one inside a double pillow case and use it as a force multiplier during a home invasion if you have no other weapon or run out of bullets. Place several of these around your home. Great for splitting skulls, breaking jaws and creating all around mayhem.

        Use them as wheel chocks for various stuff that has a tendency to roll when you use it. Trailers, splitters, chippers, tractor’s etc…

        Bricks are handy to have around the house, kinda like 2×4’s. Just saying.

      • slingshot

        You can make one heck of a fortified position in plain sight around your home.

        Make a patio at first then dig them up to build your position.

        Wish I had 500 bricks.

        • Paranoid

          Befor you use brick for a fort, shoot one with a rfle. That’s what the Union found out about brick forts.

      • Paranoid

        Brick dropping drone? Catapult, Sink bodies, 35-40 rocket stoves, Booby trap door ways, mattress to toughen you up for SHTF, Come on people, we need ideas here

      • smokey

        Could make a small path, or tilt on end for flower bed edging. If you can get more, do it, they make great patios.

    39. HAL

      Its not what round you use, but shot placement.

    40. The


      DHS already bought them all. None left for you.

    41. SmokinOkie

      Thanks, Mac! We needed a dose of gun porn to settle our nerves after whatsisname’s speech. And personally, I like anything that goes bang!

      One quick note: If anybody sees Ted Kennedy, tell him we got the Oldsmobile dried out and re-tuned. She’s revved up and ready to go, soon as he pays that $600 towing bill….

      Meanwhile, student driver and I will be hammer down for Oklahoma. Warm up the beans, Baby, I’m comin’ home. Yee Haaaw!

      • Eisenkreuz

        Thats why I like your daughter

        • 1braveheart

          eisen, I don’t think the daughter is desperate.

        • Be informed

          Yeah, to try to get to her sons and husband. Right eisencrudes?

          • Eisenkreuz

            Sexuality is a continuum. Not a defined point.

      • Warchild Dammit!

        Easy on Ted Okie,he’s been sober over four years now!My moms home is right next to the bridge(rebuilt of course!),a rather weird but popular tourist attraction.On a side note,much nicer things to see and do on chappy!

    42. Maudy Frickett

      If we worry about getting sued, we should get rid of the gun. When someone is sneaking around the inside of your house, in the dark, it’s no time to worry about lawyers. You’re probably going to get sued anyway. Survive first, then call a lawyer. If anyone thinks home invasions are like you see on TV, you’re wrong. There is no conversation until one side or the other is in control. If they are unarmed and you have a gun, guess what, they’re going to try and disarm you. If you hesitated, you probably lost. Most police officers who get shot and killed in the line of duty are killed with their own firearm about 15% of the time.

    43. Maudy Frickett

      I suspect that a lot of people on this blog are at least middle age or older. How’s your hearing? A lot of victims of home invasions don’t know anyone is in the house until the guy is standing over them in their bed. And you women out there, why are answering the door unarmed? Men too. You don’t know who it is. Once you open that door you’re committed. Whatever is going to happen is going to happen right then. You can’t call time out and go get the gun.

      • Eisenkreuz

        bwahahahahahaha bring on the burglers

        • 1braveheart

          eisen, bring your stupid ass to my place and you’ll meet “Bertha”. she’ll have some 00 buckshot with your name on it.

      • The Old Coach

        Small yappy dogs, and in my case half a dozen cheap “driveway alarms” from Harbor Freight, placed around so that no intruder can miss tripping one or more.

      • Warchild Dammit!

        Maudy,for those without a dog that provides a great warning system(geese have been used effectively also)and have no children running around have seriously considered some noisy booby traps,nothing deadly(though times get real ugy may change)just something that will shock the hell out of intruders and give one a few moments to get their head together hopefully if intruders in the home.Hell,leave on bedside table a note,hell,pen with a check list,make sure readied each night.There must be a simple way to do this that would not include alarm companies ect.,actually,anyone with good suggestions would like to hear em.

        • John_Allen


          I don’t know if this is a good idea or maybe I need more sleep. If you live in a place where manicured lawns aren’t the norm, and what the neighbors think doesn’t matter,
          tanglefoot cables stretched fifty feet around your home. Keeps people unfamiliar with your land from moving very far, very fast. A real bi*ch at night if they don’t have NV. The only non-cabled areas to be “fields of fire” that places an intruder where you want them to be.

          The practical issues of how to do this I have no idea. Probably costs more than it would be worth for most people to try it. If anyone is doing this I’d like to hear about it.

          Then there’s the old steel plate on your front porch gambit. A gnarly, badass looking electrical cable prominently feeds in under the plate (not connected to anything but they don’t know that).

          Sign displayed: the steel plate you’re standing on is randomly electrified for unwelcome visitors. 5,000 volts. Zzzttt.

          As a retired legal professional, I can see all sorts of peacetime legal issues to doing that. But when the sugar hits the wind, if it keeps your family alive who is going to do what about the legal issues?

      • CrabbeNebulae

        @MF… Yep… but, they have to get past my dog first. No one will ever “sneak” into my home without waking me up. Everyone needs to get a dog. It doesn’t matter what size. Don’t need doberman’s, pit bull’s or any other man killers. Just get a plain old friendly dog. All dogs are territorial and will bark to high heaven at the first sign of any strange noise. Especially if someone is trying to sneak into your home. My dog is my second line of defense already tried and true!! Just saying.

    44. Eisenkreuz

      The geneva convention says only FMJ is allowed in combat. Try to have some humanity. Killing people isnt cool.

      • Maudy Frickett

        Getting killed is even less cool.

      • Be informed

        @ Eisen. WHAT?! On comment #2918483, The Message to Obama Article, you state “Die you Boomer Bastards Die”. This comment was made Jan.23 at 12:03AM. So one week later you now say that killing people isn’t cool. Are you a total schizo or what? I am not trying to be your conscience or something, I am trying to show people that might have not read your previous comments that everything you say has some counterbalance to it that contradicts itself. You have attacked person after person the past 2 weeks and now you talking about having humanity. The same person that said that women need to be beaten into submission in the previous article????????

        Braveheart says that you are getting under my skin. No, I want your comments to be held accountable. You went after me, braveheart, mountain trekker, and numberous others about the homosexual issue like a dog foaming at the mouth. Then you talk about how much you hate women. Everyone thinks you are fighting yourself to come out of the closet, or you are just nuts?

        I was going to let you live and let live until you made that hideous comment about women. I have known several fantastic women that any guy would love to be with, and they stick by “their man” even through the beatings of their husbands that are taking out their own frustrations out that they can’t at work or some other place. The saddness in their eyes is beyond awful. And you advocate guys should hit these devoted women and then talk about the humanity of it with someone using ammunition or some firearm to save themselves or someone else from a criminal that has died spiritually inside long ago. If you are not a schizo in deep need of mental help, then you are evil. This is just my opinion.

        • Eisenkreuz

          Fuck you you piece of shit BI wishing a generation a speedy dieoff is not tantamount to killing them oneself. Your POS generation destoryed this country and condemned us to living through a living hell for years to come once this goes down you deserve the abuse.

          I told you shitstains several times I didnt make a comment about beating women some troll imposter has been using my screen name. If you dont believe me you can drink raindeer piss I hope you get cancer you turd.

          Fuck you BI you wenis catalog everything I say you can write it on your little balls for all I care you closeted fag. Dont they say all gay bashers are secretly gay themselves? Wanna shake your butt for me BI, you poofer? I fuck your mother you indigent vagrant. Dont get those Cheetos crumbs all over your trailer you podunk redneck. Asshole.

          • Anon

            Change your screen name or get out of here. Those comments are unacceptable and crass…at best. If someone is posting under your name then change it. If it is really your personality posting under Eisenkreutz then you need some serious mental evaluations because this posting is disgusting.

          • Be informed

            Keep wishing the death of everyone over 50, you nut. So all the people that have worked all their lives and paid taxes are POS that ruined the country? How many people your age have been brainwashed by BO into thinking welfare is the answer to prosperity? Many of your friends are living off the backs of those people that have paid lifetime taxes into your welfare friendly government.

            Yet do I or anyone else wish harm or a speedy die off to anyone of them. I don’t wish you death or your gay friends any harm. I only want the law system to protect the innocents and be pro victim, not pro criminal. I do wish you get some serious mental help, because in my opinion and most people here, you desperately need to be locked up with a straight jacket in a rubber room. NO ONE sane and NOT severely mentally imbalanced ever would wish the speedy die off of everyone over 50, no one.

            • Eisenkreuz

              Based on the correlation between oil production and population size, once fossil fuels run out 5.8 billion people will die in order for equilibrium to be reached again. This will be a glorious day. Humans are parasites. We are going to completey destroy this planet. I signed up to colonize Mars. At least the robber barons produced cars, oil, rubber, electricity, and appliances. The vast majority of people today produce absolutely nothing. The banksters move digits around a computer. But we all know all of this already.

              Ive worked tirelessly to get people to see through the haze of politics all my life. Your “hard working” generation put all this shit in place and you couldnt care less who suffers because of it. Nothing left to do but suck as much as possible off the system until it implodes. Enjoy all kinds of kinky sex acts and take drugs. It would probably do you good you old grumpy old tightwad. You wouldnt say no to this butt. What the hell are you fucktards so afraid of gay sex for anyway? Its just like a girl, except its with a guy. So what?

            • Paranoid

              BI relax. you’d argue with a pile of dog shit. (Easy to prove that, considering you bother to argue with E) Do you argue with a fart? It’s just moving wind, E isn’t much different. You have to much valuable info to bother with E. Have a Lemonade.

              • Jibo

                Now THAT’S funny paranoid!

          • AURELIUS

            Eisen, not to take sides in this matter, but after F___ you, you need a comma and after Asshole, you need an exclamation mark. Hope this helps.

          • CrabbeNebulae

            Eisen… you are truly an ignorant and sad creature. You are to be pitied and possibly should be the first to be put out of your misery. Kinda like a cat or dog with hydrophobia.

      • 1braveheart

        eisen, approaching someone else having bad intentions toward them is definitely not cool.

    45. Maudy Frickett

      And while I’m on a roll, in a high stress incident, you’re probably going to fire at the center of mass. Not many people are trained well enough to shoot like a professional combat shooter (SEALS, etc.). Most regular people panic shoot. Hell, most police panic shoot. If the bad guy is still moving he is still a threat. Keep shooting.

      • Mountain Trekker

        Maudy, I think the Pro’s call this tunnel vision. And under stress, I don’t think most people’s tunnel is looking at a knee or shoulder, if you know what I mean! Trekker Out.

    46. IwantSum

      Sign me up for some. They’s be my special ammo. 🙂

    47. Risky Whiskey

      As they say at Suarez International: if you shoot a guy in the face, He’s probably going to leave you alone. This round will assure the Swiss-cheese effect on soft tissue for sure!

      However, my concern is for obstacle under-penetration (doors, car doors, body armor–bad guys do wear body armor– walls etc.) as well as the stopping power of the slug being reduced as the projectiles disperse as-designed.

      If I need to shoot somebody, conventional thinking tells me I want a nice jagged wad of mushroomed metal striking the guy’s spine, forehead, sternum or internal organs and shredding it’s way through creating an effective-enough shock and wound channel to stop him.

      I have no doubt that this new ammo will eventually kill the person you use it on for defensive purposes (especially with multiple hits)…but will it effectively be able to STOP them by breaking a long bone, tearing-off an appendage, exploding the heart or lungs, or severing the abdominal aorta when so much of the projectile is dispersed to create more surface woundage?

      I’m sticking with my Winchester Ranger LE .40 S&W +P Hollow Points for now. Perhaps with more empirical evidence of real-world success with this ammo, I might consider staggering some of it’s rounds with the Ranger rounds in case I’ve gotta run and gun with somebody who’s just too crazy or stupid to depart when their ‘Mark’ decides to throw down.

      • Risky Whiskey

        Oh yeah…..and if you miss your mark, you’ve got way more than one projectile to worry about striking a bystander or their property; all things that Texas law makes any shooter accountable for regardless of the situation.

    48. sixpack

      The “Magic Bullet” is the one that removes the threat.


    49. Eisenkreuz

      THIS IS A RUSE. This bullet was intentionally designed not to penetrate 3A Kevlar vests in order to protect the enforcers.

    50. Stew Pedaso

      Nah…think I will just stick with my low grain fester shot. I don’t want to kill anyone, but I don’t want them to forget our meeting either lol

    51. posseecom

      The last round I’ll ever need?

      I don’t think so….

      Everyone is proficient with different calibers/handguns.

      As many have stated here,it’s simply shot placement..period..

      Almost all pistol “engagements” are with in 15 feet or the faster you draw and fire “accurately” within seconds is all that counts..hopefully before your adversary has drawn on you..

      On a side note..what have all of you found on availability and pricing in your neck of the woods on the following calibers?

      40 cal

      Here in masshole land..

      9mm 16.99 brass 50 rnds
      40 cal..18.99 brass 50 rnds



    52. Satori

      *****H7N9 UPDATE*****

      we KNEW this was coming

      China confirms limited interhuman infection of H7N9 bird flu

      THE operative word is CONFIRMS

      this is IMPORTANT news
      for the first time the Chinese government is confirming this info

      no need to panic at this point
      but the threat is definitely increasing
      you should be prepped for this at this point

      this virus is mutating,
      as all viruses do,
      most mutations are actually harmful to viruses
      but there is always that one in a million that makes the
      virus more lethal and or more contagious to humans
      it appears that jump is being made
      fortunately human to human transmission APPEARS to be
      very limited still
      but that can change
      you definitely need to raise your DEFCON level on this
      if H7N9 starts appearing outside of China it’s game on

      a good fictional read on a pandemic is Kokoly’s

      for a good non-fiction read try

      THE GREAT INFLUENZA by John Berry

      and I HIGHLY recommend you watch the movie CONTAGION (2011)

      it will give you a taste of possible things to come

      • JayJay

        Watched ‘Contagion’ yet????

        • JayJay

          Oh, sorry Satori–I have a bad habit of posting my comment before reading entire post…sorry.
          Yes, worth repeating to watch that movie to see how important it is to prepare.
          ‘The Moment After’ is a good look into the Global takeover and the persecution of Christians.
          I watched part 1 and part 2 and looking forward to part 3 when it is filmed.
          It IS the story of what we read every day of the future.

    53. Warchild Dammit!

      Oh Possee,when will you learn?!Yes,I know except thru a ffl cannot have ammo delivered off of the net in Assachussetts,that said,one who lives in Mass. but say had family in,oh,say N.H. could have them get it and be picked up on next visit,easy and completely legal.Get on and ammo seek and get buying buddy!

      • PO'd Patriot

        Can’t get 20,30, 40 round mags due to state regs? Check out (Kansas). They’ll brake’em down for you(free) into what they call “repair kits” and ship them to you. Just ask for your order to be sent as “repair kits”. Got some Ruger 10-22/25 rounders coming. Takes just a few seconds to put together.

    54. JAS

      Just a side note. Earlier this week, Winchester issued a recall for certain lots of M22 22 LR ammo. It appears that it was double charged with powder. If you have any of this ammo, check the lot numbers against their notice. This could do serious damage to a lot of guns and shooters as well.

    55. Sgt. Dale

      This was a great article and something I think was needed!

      This new bullet wont last long. Just like the black Tallen some Twit in D.C. will out law it.

      The concept is good. The problem is the cost.
      When I can have 3 mags full of Hydro Shocks or Gold Dots in my 1911 or my H&K mags compared to only one mag of these rounds this is what it comes down to. Remember we are prepping for the long run and I believe that these are going to be very costly.

      Watching the video I could see the little arms splitting of and only going around 3 or 4 inches. Thick clothing and heavy leather coats will absorb most of these. This is the problem we had with the new W.W. Silver tips in the late 80 when the Ill State Police went with to the S&W 9MM. The only thing I saw going through the Jellitten block was the base of the slug.

      It is new on the market so only time will tell what happens from here.

      The shot where they show it being shot though a chicken? Come on now. How about a 230 pigs shoulder and then let me see how it does!

      Not once did they show anything about accuracy. After all is not about Bullet Placement.
      Aim Small Miss Small

    56. Satori

      House committee advances bill giving domestic police powers to National Guard

      this is only one state
      and it has not passed yet

      but it is still a VERY chilling development

      “When reached for comment about the new legislation, Monica Hopkins of the Idaho chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union noted that “I think there should be growing concern among citizens at the militarization of our police forces. We have seen communities where federal dollars are going toward the use of tanks and other military weaponry. American citizens should be concerned at the growing militarization of local government power.”

      Similarly, Wayne Hoffman of the Idaho Freedom Foundation added that “every Idahoan should be alarmed by the continued use of the military for law enforcement purposes. That is not what the military is for, that is not what the National Guard is for. Yet we’re continuing to see our military deployed for law enforcement purposes or military equipment used for everyday law enforcement purposes. It is a very frightening trend.”

      “frightening trend” ???

      HELL YES

      the noose is tightening

    57. Be informed

      @ eisencrudes. So wishing a speedy die off of a whole generation is mentally OK? All uou are saying is that you are NOT capable of bringing this about. IF you could you would. You miserable psychopath, wishing a speedy die off of hundreds of millions of people.

      You bet I look back at your comments, just like someone that is a criminal profiler. I let people know what you said so they know whom they are dealing with, a ranting lunatic that defends homosexuals no matter what some of them do to innocent children. All the while you wish that everyone over 50 die off as quickly as possible, depressed that you can’t bring it about yourself.

      You bet I am going to continue to talk about protecting children and speak out against this political correctness toxin that is preventing little kids from being able to speak out when some pervert is coming on to them. So kids don’t have to be afraid of being labeled as some intolerant monster towards homos when they are attacked. Parents the same way that they can report one of your molester friends to the police without also being attacked under the notion of discrimination.

      I have never been a gay basher, I cannot stand pedophiles, they belong in prison. I am someone that defends the innocent. To do after some gay person that has not harmed anyone is as wrong as attacking some innocent black person. You cannot even understand what is fair in your warped mind that hates women. You wrote all this garbage and said over months how you want the boomer generation to die, all by yourself. Now that someone is holding you accountable for those raving spouts of wanton hate to your desires of GENOCIDE to ALL people over 50, you call foul.

      Eisencrudes = someone fighting his weirdo fetish tendencies.



      • Eisenkreuz

        1. Show me one comment where I mention genocide. All I said was that I hope you boomer bastards die off as quickly as possible. Natural death is not the same thing as killing you troll flamer.

        2. I never defended anybody who ever harmed a child you fucking diarhhea breath camel fucker. You are projecting that shit at me and you can fuck yourself you old piece of dog shit.

        3. Some gays harm kids so therefore all gays must be ostracized? This is your generation justified locking up gays until 2004. Seven countries on this Earth will kill you for being gay. You are a fucking piece of shit. Pedo shit has nothing at all to do with homosexuality. They are two totally seperate mindsets. You are a bigoted old ignorant redneck fucker and this is a prime example of why you stupid old fucks just need to die of old age so we can have a compassionate and respectful society.

        4. Criminal profiler? Raving lunatic? Holding me accountable for what? You fucking shitsniffer. I wish I could drop a big turd in your cereal.

        • Be informed

          Wishing a mass of people to die off IS wishing for genocide by nature or by some human means. Wishing for death of others, especially a magnitude of people now, 10 days, 10 months, 10 years from now is wishing for genocide. I sick demented person does this in their psychopathic mind. End of story.

      • Warchild Dammit!

        Why not warn children of all pedophiles,that is the answer,has nothing to do with ones sexuality.

    58. Satori

      Bird Flu Isn’t Just China’s Problem Anymore

      “And that means the next plane could bring a pandemic to the U.S. or anywhere else around the world. “The bottom line is the health security of the U.S. is only as strong as the health security of every country around the world,” says Dr. Thomas Frieden, director of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control. “We are all connected by the food we eat, the water the drink and the air we breathe.”

      • laeagle

        H1N1 killed another one of mine after a whole month in the ICU.

        Satori, thanks for the updates. I see them as well and follow news in the medical literature too. A contagion of some sort is one of my biggest worries as a public health and tropical medicine specialist. Keep on the look out and be alert at all times.

    59. Maudy Frickett

      I like Hornady Critical Defense ammo. Also, In .45 acp, I always liked the “flying ashtray”.

    60. Henry

      Guns aren’t made to kill, guns are made to stop a threat. Murderers use guns to kill.
      If my attacker dies of a gunshot wound, well, that would be unfortunate.

    61. PKLauLau

      OFF Topic again:

      My warm fuzzies from the previous post lasted about 3 minutes…..

      Have you guys seen this? Will someone who has snow do this and report back? This video is only 12 minutes….skip to the 3 minute mark or so if you are in a hurry.

      If this is real then we are worse off than I thought….God help us.


    62. VRF

      No gimmick is a valid replacement for shot placement , if you cant shoot worth a shit , these wont help you any

      I wonder how many DHS ordered?

    63. PKLauLau

      Off Topic….again….

      Hubby said this is BS…sorry if I alarmed anyone. I just don’t know what to believe anymore….


    64. KY Mom

      32 Statistics That Obama Neglected To Mention During The State Of The Union Address

      “Show this article to anyone that believes that the economy has actually improved under Barack Obama.

      On Tuesday evening, Barack Obama once again attempted to convince all of us that things have gotten better while he has been in the White House. He quoted a few figures, used some flowery language and made a whole bunch of new promises.”

      …things have not been getting better in America. In fact, they continue to get even worse.”

      Economic Collapse blog

    65. Barn Cat

      I don’t know if they’ll stop an attacker quicker than a regular bullet. The fact that the guy is more likely to die later doesn’t help me if he can still fire off a couple of rounds at me. If they’re likely to disable an attacker more quickly I’d want them.

    66. HisArmsWide

      Personally I’ll pass.

      My biggest concern from the videos is this looks like there’s more chance of overpenetration from the fragments through a soft tissue target than a quality JHP.

      And that’s exactly the thing I don’t want in a self defense situation in my home or a mall or a movie theatre.

      Then there’s the reliability question of feeding in the calibres I carry.

      But not shooting my children or someone else’s children because one of those fragments burned through a bad guy is the big one.

    67. JayJay

      Bill in Va. would exempt ALL homemade foods from regulation, including perishable foods.
      A proposed cottage-food law in Virginia passed; it would exempt virtually all homemade – or small-farm-made – foods from regulation, provided the foods are sold directly from producer to consumer, in face-to-face transactions.

      Amish must be behind this; go Va.
      Prove at least one state has common sense.

    68. Maudy Frickett

      I think Extreme Shock Ammo went bancrupt. But they had some high speed frangable type ammo that was devastating. It would dump nearly all it’s energy within the first 4 inches of tissue. The entrance wound would be the size of your fist and no exit wound. They showed a picture of a 500 lb. wild boar that was killed by their 9mm round. Expensive also. Probably why they went bancrupt. They may be back in business.

    69. JayJay

      I’m still smiling..:-)
      Connecticut Gun Owners Revolt; Refuse to Register Firearms & Magazines
      Gun owners in Connecticut have revolted against a new gun control law, with just 38,000 out of 2.4 million high capacity magazines being registered with authorities.
      Nuff said..another state exhibiting common sense.

      • Slick One

        The Connecticut gun owners now need to go after anyone connected involved in nullifying their 2nd amendment rights.

    70. KY Mom

      Holder: New media guidelines in weeks

      “New guidelines on how the Justice Department can monitor the media will be published in the next coming weeks, Attorney General Eric Holder said at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on Wednesday.”

      A “media review committee” will assist the DOJ to investigate the media.

      Politico dot com

    71. KY Mom

      Iran can now build and deliver nukes

      “Tehran has made technical progress in a number of areas — including uranium enrichment, nuclear reactors, and ballistic missiles — from which it could draw if it decided to build missile-deliverable nuclear weapons.”

      Breitbart dot com

      • JayJay

        I’m more afraid at this point of my own govt. than Iran.
        History..which has done more harm to me.

        • JayJay

          Here’s how I feel about Iran.
          I look at them as my neighbors probably feel about me.
          I am prepared for a real disaster, a global financial collapse, and other fall outs.
          They think I am crazy for defending myself from hungry hoards, maybe even them.
          I think I am smart for doing this.
          Well, Iran is defending itself from surrounding dangers.
          Iran thinks it is smart for doing this.
          My protection; Iran’s protection.

    72. Southern Border

      Man looks like this place is turning into a three ring circus as of late, Hey Mac this site used to be a whole lot better awhile back, what’s going on here ? Hell now you cant even get through the comments on any given article lately without having to read through a bunch of comments where someone is throwing a tirade about one thing or another. Looks like you need a separate spot/thread or whatever titled “Sewer Lagoon” / “Shithouse “or something where these folks that want to fight about each others responses can go spew their shit. You wont keep that #1 site rating for long if this crap keeps up !

      • JayJay

        It’s BI and Braveheart, and others with their inability to ignore idiotic remarks like 1st graders I taught.
        No you did, no you did it first, no you pulled my hair, well you punched my back!! on and on and on.

        I am sick and tired of it.
        I come to learn about the state of the nation, the status of other nations that indirectly impact my safety and well-being from day to day.
        I need to know what is happening to my country and how I should react.

        I do one thing before I push submit—remember that the world is reading my comment.
        I wish the world to know I am a mature adult sometimes giving MY opinion, sometimes someone else’s opinion using links, sharing news and information to help all prepare for the coming threats in one way or another; they can take it or leave it; but it’s there.
        RANT OFF!!! but I am too damned tired of this crap.
        Time consuming scanning who to read or not–I bet I speak for the thousands visiting each day–they just aren’t from Tennessee where we call a spade a spade.

        • JayJay

          SOUTHERN BORDER–we need to teach many here where the scroll on the mouse is!!!!
          Don’t like my post?? Just……….wait for it…….
          here it is……
          S…C…R…O…L…L on down.

      • Jibo

        Excellent point Southern. I’m beginning to question if he cares anymore.

        • Jibo

          Really? after 14 hours I’m still in moderation? Is there a problem here?

    73. Hunter1114

      That looks like a REALLY nasty round…I’d love to have a box.

      As far as the Black Talon, it didn’t go away, it just became Ranger SXT (Same eXact Thing (grin)) but without the coating that gave it the black appearance. It was not teflon coated, by the way; that was an urban myth that stuck for some reason. The line of Winchester Ranger ammo available today is just as deadly as the Black Talon, with the same characteristics.

    74. Hey You

      Too much emphasis on firearms.

      Try something non-lethal like wasp and hornet spray. Stops attacks at 20 feet if placed right (head and face). It seems doubtful that an attack in any uprising will be so dangerous as to require deadly force. Stopping force may be exactly what’s required in most situations.

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