The Classified Report DHS Doesn’t Want You To See: “The Electric Power Delivery System… Could Be Severely Damaged By A Small Number of Well-Informed Attackers”

by | Nov 15, 2012 | Headline News | 316 comments

Do you LOVE America?


    In 2007 the National Academy of Sciences completed an extensive review of the national power grid infrastructure in a 164 page report titled Terrorism and the Electric Power Delivery System. In it the NAS detailed a wide array of physical, personnel and cyber vulnerabilities that could pose a significant risk to the national security of the United States.

    Even though the report was originally written for public release, notes Madison Ruppert of End the Lie, the entire document was almost immediately classified by the Department of Homeland Security and hasn’t seen the light of day until this week. That release came after five years of committee reviews, reversals, deliberations and pressure from the Academy itself.

    The contents of the report make it clear why DHS wanted to keep it out of public view, as it illustrates severe deficiencies within the whole of the national power grid infrastructure.

    So serious are the problems, that a coordinated attack by just a few people in just a few critical components could wreak such havoc that the effects would be measured in hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of lives:

    The electric power delivery system that carries electricity from large central generators to customers could be severely damaged by a small number of well-informed attackers. The system is inherently vulnerable because transmission lines may span hundreds of miles, and many key facilities are unguarded. This vulnerability is exacerbated by the fact that the power grid, most of which was originally designed to meet the needs of individual vertically integrated utilities, is now being used to move power between regions to support the needs of new competitive markets for power generation. Primarily because of ambiguities introduced as a result of recent restructuring of the industry and cost pressures from consumers and regulators, investment to strengthen and upgrade the grid has lagged, with the result that many parts of the bulk high-voltage system are heavily stressed.

    A terrorist attack on the power system would lack the dramatic impact of the attacks in New York, Madrid, or London. It would not immediately kill many people or make for spectacular television footage of bloody destruction. But if it were carried out in a carefully planned way, by people who knew what they were doing, it could deny large regions of the country access to bulk system power for weeks or even months. An event of this magnitude and duration could lead to turmoil, widespread public fear, and an image of helplessness that would play directly into the hands of the terrorists. If such large extended outages were to occur during times of extreme weather, they could also result in hundreds or even thousands of deaths due to heat stress or extended exposure to extreme cold.

    The largest power system disruptions experienced to date in the United States have caused high economic impacts. Considering that a systematically designed and executed terrorist attack could cause disruptions that were even more widespread and of longer duration, it is no stretch of the imagination to think that such attacks could entail costs of hundreds of billions of dollars.

    Terrorist attacks on multiple-line transmission corridors could cause cascading blackouts.High-voltage transformers are of particular concern because they are vulnerable to attack, both from within and from outside the substation where they are located. These transformers are very large, difficult to move, custom-built, and difficult to replace.

    Most are no longer made in the United States, and the delivery time for new ones can run to months or years. The industry has made some progress toward building an inventory of spares, but these efforts could be overwhelmed by a large attack. Although easier to move and replace, other large components, such as high voltage circuit breakers, are also a concern.

    These problems are exacerbated by the current state of the transmission grid. It is aging and increasingly stressed, leaving it especially vulnerable to multiple failures following an attack. Many important pieces of equipment are decades old and lack improved technology that could help limit outages.

    Full Report: National Academy of Sciences

    The NAS originally compiled the report under direction of Homeland Security. Their intent was that DHS would take the information and use it to improve the grid by reducing vulnerabilities and upgrading outdated components.

    Because DHS sat on this for five years, none of the proactive measures recommended by the report have been taken, so we are exactly where we were in 2007.

    If we look to the most recent grid failure in the north east as a guide, a rogue attack on essential components of the regional and national power infrastructure, or a powerful enough solar storm, could do some serious damage.

    No electricity, as we have seen recently, means no refrigeration, no fuel, no clean water, no transportation and no rapid emergency response.

    In an isolated area where 50,000 to 100,000 people are affected the situation can be managed.

    But what happens when we’re talking about fifty or more major metropolitan areas and tens of millions of people from coast-to-coast?


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      1. The article just reminds me once again how important it is to try and be as independant of the grid as possible. I am working on that one. Thanks for the reminder

        • Agreed. I feel that being independant from the grid means being independant from electricity. If I had the money for solar generators and other cool gadgets I would buy them, but for now I just have to adapt my mindset to life without electricty. Currently the main two things I would miss the most is a cold refrigerator and the plethora of knowledge on the internet.

          • One option, propane refrigerator. My grandparents had one that lasted almost   50 years for them. Of course I have to wonder if any are built now that would have that long of a life span. I was fascinated that only a small blue flame would keep things cold, only electrical power was for the light.

              • There is no reason why that propane refrigerator would not work off of natural gas with some modification to the burner. Actually if one could develop a solar heat source like a magnifying lens or electrical resistive heat with kw from a solar panel it would work too. The working fluid just needs to be heated to facilitate evaporation and later condensing to complete the thermo cycle. 

                • @K2

                  Thats a good idea.  Perhaps a candle will work in a pinch.

                • Fresnel lens available free in any rear projection TV (as big as the screen). If you want one, be on the lookout because many of these TVs have already been discarded. Look up cool videos on YT for examples of the power of these things. Be careful and keep something handy to cover the lens. They can easily set your house on fire.

                • I do not mean to sound like this is going to sound, but here goes….you use the winter to store your foods that will perish without refrigeration..outside in spring you utilize the sun to dry your food if need be…..take many hints from our Native Americans…..follow the seasons and plan accordingly…..I cannot afford a generator, and, more importantly, I believe that they will not suffice for a long term “need”…..a generator which requires fuel will not sustain you for long so you need to think way beyond the box…..if you can afford the absurd prices for solar power, go for it….if not, go a different route… can cook using the sun with such simple items as aluminum foil and cast iron… do not have to purchase the expensive items which are being advertised…..use your head and purchase many dry goods as well as canned goods…..with spices you can create a multitude of meals with little expense….be well and wise and prepare for whatever comes your way, be it from nature or from other sources……a side note here, make sure you provide for entertainment as well…..many will not know how to function without electricity and the “fun stuff” on the internet…..have games, cards, and other distractions for those young ones…..they will work to help but will also need the fun time……


            • I’ve always felt that if you’re going to prep, you might as well start with the worse case senerio, so if it’s something not as bad, you will be more than ready.

            • Got to have electricity to run the transfer pump that fills the truck that fills your tanks! But propane is great.

            • Sorry, Don’t mean to be so cold. You could run one of these fine Amish built refers for a year and 9 months from 800 gallons in a thousand gallon tank. Not too shabby! According to the specs on their site.

              • Wow, My calcs were waaaay wrong. You can run that baby for over 7 years on 800 gallons!!!!!

                • Site please Clem.



                • Whoa really?

                  Interesting and I was thinking of doing a solar one.  It can be done.  They ahve lay down freezers for RV’s.  Main issue with that is reserve battery power.  This is kinda sorta mission critical and a couple of weeks of no sun could really mess up your day.

                  Propane sounds like a better option.  How big is a 1000 gallon tank?

                • Do you have any idea of the cost of 800 gallons of propane?!!  It’s about 3.80 a gallon and a house sized/family sized propane refrigerator will run through about 9 gallons a week, for a cost of $32 dollars.  Multiply x 4 equals $128 for a week.  I can do better with a solar panel hooked up to a battery bank and running a frig off electricity!!!

              • How do the Amish refrigerate things (or equvalent)?  I am dying to know.

                • Lori provided the link.Thanks Lori!Absorbtion Amonia systems heat amonia liquid into gas. The super heated liquid amonia is then expanded under pressure through an “orifice tube” and then expelled into an evaporator. This cools the coils and surrounding materials (refrigeration Compartment) and the process continues in a cycle. The Amish are top knotch craftsmen and Women! If I have omitted any processes, please correct me as I have been up again all night.Please allow me to re-submit Loris’ link: was almost embarrased to write in again after the grave calc errors but in haste forgot to figure in weight for 1 lb. of propane (4.11 lbs @ sea level 25 deg C)Sorry.. 

                • Thank Lori for the site listed above.Thanks Lori! liquid is heated and ran through an orifice tube and expanded into an evaporator that cools the refrigerated compartment. Then the amonia gas is cooled and condenses and the process starts all over again. The heat is from a small flame of propane, wood, coal, natural gas or electricity. Most RV’s use this type of refer on off site locations due to it’s versatility. One movie “Mosquito Coast” staring Mr. Harrison Ford, depicts the usage of amonia absorbtion systems and his idea of a great time…must see. Although this system is very efficient, it does pose special precautions. Amonia gas is deadly if inhaled. Folks that use these systems need to know that evacuation may be required if a leak occurs. These Amish craftsmen would be the ones to consult on the use and safety of their equipment. I once visited a facility that used amonia for a flash freezer. -60 deg F temps were used to freeze buisquits in less than 1 minute of exposure on a conveyor belt. The maintenance team were well aware of the danger and advised us of the danger and routs to exit the building in case of a leak. Below is also a good description of this process. Thanks StrazomirSorry again for the mis-calculations…Cheers

            • Trouble is, without the grid, there won’t be any more propane, either, once your stash is used up.  It takes electricity to make it, and electricity to move it.

              BTW I have a little electric freezer that my parents bought when I was a little kid – early 1950s.   It still works, too.     Things were made to last back then.     Now?  Well, my sister-in-law is remodeling her kitchen.  Again.  Last time was in 2009.  She has again decided that she doesn’t like the color of her appliances.  Selling to a market like that, why build long-lived appliances?

              • Propane it not required – only a source of heat – for instance a very small wood fire.  See step 1 below and substitute a small wood fueled fire.


                A gas refrigerator uses ammonia as the coolant, and water, ammonia and hydrogen gas to create a continuous cycle for the ammonia. The refrigerator has five main parts:

                Generator – creates ammonia gas
                Separator – separates the ammonia gas from water
                Condenser – where hot ammonia gas is cooled and condensed to create liquid ammonia
                Evaporator – where liquid ammonia converts to a gas to create cold temperatures inside the refrigerator
                Absorber – absorbs the ammonia gas in water

                It works like this:

                Heat is applied to the ammonia and water solution in the generator. (The heat comes from burning gas, propane or kerosene.)
                As the mixture reaches the boiling point of ammonia, it flows into the separator.
                Ammonia gas flows upward into the condenser, dissipates heat and converts back to a liquid.
                The liquid ammonia makes its way to the evaporator where it mixes with hydrogen gas and evaporates, producing cold temperatures inside the refrigerator’s cold box.
                The ammonia and hydrogen gases flow to the absorber where the water collected in the separator in step No. 2 mixes with the ammonia and hydrogen gases.
                The ammonia forms a solution with the water and releases the hydrogen gas, which flows back to the evaporator.
                The ammonia-and-water solution flows toward the generator to repeat the cycle.

                • You went in greater detail but we’re in agreement regarding the heat source.


              • The old units lasted forever. There is a beer fridge with the little sheet metal freezer at the firehouse that according to my Dad who is 90 was already there when he joined just after WWII. It has been running continuously for probably 70 years. 

                They’re not easy on the electric. Efficiency was not a concern back then. Heavy SOB too.






              • Except for the nostalgia that it was your parents why are you using a 1050s technology freezer? You could run a new one five times the size with less power use and much colder temps.

            • We have lived off grid for 17 years and use a Servel Propane fridge. It works great – no moving parts and a 5 gallon bottle of propane last 3 or so weeks.

              • I’m very interested how you live off the grid.I want to do it myself- but being in a suburb of Atlanta, it’s hard. I’ m looking at some land (8acres) away from here. But then what? Buy tractors and build barnes. Where do I start first? Help!

                • It takes alot of work and cash to play farmer. Get a place that you can handle that someone else has allready done most of the work on.

            • Granted propane is a great solution for short to intermediate term use, as propane can be stored for long time without degradation, in contrast to gasoline or even diesel.

              But if there is a serious electrical outage, then what happens after your 500 gallon propane tank runs out, and no delivery?

              I think therefore in a true SHTF scenario, if you want long term electricity, you have to go with solar or wind,  with additional  root cellaring, storage of expensive freeze dried, or dried /canned food with multiple year shelf life.

              Even battery storage has its limitations over a several year span, and finally  solar panels lose efficiency after 10 years or so. Therefore, keep those in reserve rather than daily use while grid is up.

              The dilemma for living in the northern climes: easier to have “freezer” storage by  stashing food outdoors during winter, or living in warmer climates where you can grow food year round.

              And on the animal side:Raising chickens in cold vs heat? each scenario has its own set of problems, vs having to store hay for larger cattle during the winter up north, in addition to firewood. But then,hard to run AC off of solar -too much energy for panels and batteries for most mortals to afford.


              Just no easy answer.

            • sure they are most campers and motorhomes have one in them some newer models arfe going to regular home refers,

            • It you are interested in a propane refrigerator.

              Most  RV, Motor Homes, and Camp Trailers, have a refrigerator that runs three ways.  Battery, Propane, and Electric.   You could find a damaged one and buy, the refrigerator, and even the stove.

              I found one, and not only got all of the above, but  inverter, hot water tank. Gray & Black Water holding tanks, as well as the Fresh Water one.

            • Propane or 2/3-way (12v dc/12ov ac) refers in RV’s are good quality and will last a really long time if installed correctly (level front-back & left-right with a good vent stack).  I get more than 2 weeks from a 5 gallon tank (18 pounds actual fill) during the summer in my 6 cubic feet model that freezes chocolate ice cream rock hard.  No power required in some models, 12v required in others (but they may use less propane with more electronics). 

              A DC/AC rocker-pump refer like those made by Norcold can be pretty thrifty (~300W/Hrs per day in summer) so that 200W of solar PV and a couple of deep cycle batteries can run all year without grid power. 

              If a person has a medical requirement to refrigeration, spending $1000 on this is going to be a high priority. 

              Ice for drinks is a nice side-effect of medical refrigeration. 



          • Well, it sounds like they’re going to take over the internet, so that might not be an issue for much longer.

            • Hey, Sixpack.

              Do you and others on this site have ideas or plans about how to get critical information we will need when the internet gets taken over?  I can see them obliterating (euphemism for words they troll for) sites with advice and info for getting ready.  Also, with current and increasing intrusion into our private communication with each other, I can see it being virtually impossible to get hold of each other.  ?Is there someway we can catalogue ourselves offline so we can stay in contact and disseminate info? I would really appreciate anyone’s tips or advice on this.

              • No one here has given your question much thought.  Due to it not being rational.  Why would anyone take the net away?  Not going to happen

                • Not take away,      Control

                • well ,”b real” from all the thumbs down YOU got, I’d say people think you’re a douche. you probably got hung up on that big word “euphemism.” in case you didnt know, the fusion center trolls for key words like CENSOR, so i was avoiding using that word by,hang on here, substituting another word. if no one wants to network, although it’s imprudent, it’s cool.

              • Gop4ever,

                Not that you would listen to me, but there is…

                Before there were web sites, there was something called the List server.

                This is email on steroids, when you send an email to the ‘list’, it is copied to everybody, thus different ‘threads’ based on the subject were used in a very similar fashion to comment threads and forums…

                Open stego, and OTP (One Time Pad) are encryption protocols, that are uncrackable if, if, you can find alternate paths of communications to pass keys.

                Thus you can set up a ‘social network’ with hidden channels.

                We set one of these up some time ago for exactly this purpose, but the issue is one of TRUST, nobody trusts anybody thinking everybody else could be an agent. This is not without truth. So basically The Piper came alive as a ‘joke’, or a philosophy so far out there nobody, nobody, in their right mind, could consider me anything but… me….;)

                So the issue becomes what are you going to do with that network…

                It was set up as an alternate economic path, to provide users with non web comms under the theory, that the net would be around because it is primarily useful for finance and governments, also, any electronic currency systems (future) would absolutely require it.

                Now, still think I’m ‘crazy’?


                • Piper, interfacxThank you so much for that detailed information.  So much of this passes right over my head, it kinda worries me.  I hope to interface with tech folks like yourself so I don’t get left out in the cold.  I am afraid TPTB including the UN are going to intrude much, much more into the internet and it will be less flexible and useful than it is now, and will make us more vulnerable than we are now.  Anyhow, thanks again.  I will study what you have written.

                • You’re welcome sir…

                  Primarily, the UN and its cronies, want to get control of the DNS system.. thus they can block sites on a whim… by name.

                  The key is getting off the web…. but using the web for ‘innocuous’ traffic and establishing hidden channels between trusted friends in disparate locations. These can become refuge communities in the future… no man is an island.

                  Mac says he is putting up a private messaging system, wonderful, but even with ssl those streams are easily viewable and crackable by those with access to the Inet backbone. However, with the focus of this site not being a ‘m i l i t i a’ or subversive type site, I doubt if the necessary resources would be targeted at us. Besides, our focus is survival, not fighting big brother. The ONLY way to win an economic war, is economic means… you cannot shoot a tidal wave with a popgun… even though, popguns will be required…;)

                  I know you may not accept this, but we are in a spiritual battle, and this requires spiritual discernment… as well as a way to bypass/override the things of religion that keep us divided and at each others throats over religious matters.  This required a New Theory or Song of revealing.

                  I was a ‘code whisperer’ and systems engineer for 40 years before I was a Piper, and I assure you, there are ways to beat the evil ones at their own game. It merely requires knowing what they’re up to.

                  My focus, is that Long Term survival plans will be necessary because the Earth change and madness that comes will last a long time, this will require the replenishment of goods, by the establishment of an underground network of producers and consumers, not to operate, just to prepare the network of trusted friends, and there are trusted people on here. This is based in Biblical principles, but backed by new scientific understanding of the basis for the prophesies. (ie the revelation of dark energy) Which provides the Oneness of all things through the quantum entanglement of science, codified in the gift of spirit that led to the completion of Einstein’s ToE and proof of Daniel’s “God of Forces”.

                  This will not become a ‘thing’ until everybody begins to ‘see’… that wealth is not in banker paper, but love, lives, skills and lands, and will need to come to The Light in order to survive. This will only come, when they see that their ‘mystery’ has failed them… and they ‘fall away’ from the Preacher men who keep them apathetic and submissive to “Godly authority”…

                  My premise, is that we are MEN, not SHEEP, and God evidently agrees, because He is waking up many through dreams, revelations and a new spiritual awareness manifested by the rejection of the status quo of The System. You can see the awakening here on Mac’s site and many others. But understand, it is only those with “eyes that see”…

                  Go here to find the tools of unity you seek:

                  babylonwilderness dot com


              • Get PGP (pretty good privacy) which has an encryption level that cannot be broken. Give out your public key to those individuals you wish to communicate with.

                • It can be broken my friend…anything that has a mathematical basis for the algorithm can be broken with sufficient resources… especially public key systems.think of…  a million cpu’s in parallel…working on the same stream.The only real problem is the ‘time domain’, this is handled very simply by adding resources working together on the same problem.We used to be employed by No Such Agency, we assure you, they want you to think what you said is true.The only security is in non-mathematical randomness, and pictures, without text streams. 

                • The ONLY thing the government needed to break even 512 encryption algorithms, was a powerful enough computer—and they now have that. It has ALWAYS been possible to break modern encryption, but the time it would take at the previous speeds meant it wasn’t doable in a human lifetime…now it can be done in seconds or minutes, not decades.

                  Given the backdoor the government has forced encryption engineers to include in their software, even VOIP isn’t totally secure. Nothing digital really is. The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) is a great place to start educating yourself.

                  I started out breaking forgotten Windows passwords, then it took me about 15 minutes to break the administrator password on the first mac I ever touched. I make a buck or two helping people who forgot their passwords, or parents who need info from their child’s device that was password protected. I can tell you there is always a backdoor…always.

              • I’ve been thinking about that for a while now. I guess a lot depends on how total the collapse is. If the entire electrical grid goes down, ham radios will be mostly out, except for a few handheld transceivers, until the batteries are all dead. At that point, I’d think about Paul Revere, with or without the horse. Let’s face it, they know they got us by the balls on this one.

                Carrier pigeons don’t follow GPS coordinates very well. As I understand it, one bird can go to only one destination and back, so either different birds with different end-points would expand the coverage.

                A network established ahead of time would be a start —until some asshat shoots down your bird for dinner…but it’s still better than complete, indefinite isolation.

                • I meant homing pigeons…

          •   You could always assemble a “zeer”  An ancient method of cooling.

               1) 2 clay pots, one larger than the other

               2) Sand, water & Towel

               Plug the holes in the pots.  Put one pot into the other, fill with sand

               and wet the sand with water.  Drench a towel in water and cover the

               two pots.  It will frost a beer in time.  google “zeer” for video.

              I will use it for storing insulin


            • Only works in dry climate.  They are not very effective in the humid S.E.

              • Very true, same concept as the water gathering with hole and cloth in desert, have to have dry climate with significant tempp swings at night.

                • The Southwest then. Forty and fifty degree swings in the Winter are common in inland San Diego.

          • Funny how I see LARGE quanities of electric generators and portable fuel tanks….BIG ones-headed for Cali…..And large quantities of armored personnel carriers, small four guy ones, headed east…Huh….generators headed west….military trucks headed east??

            Im talking about THOUSANDS OF TRUCKS….I live 100 meters from the MAIN E/W track…….wonder where all those anti personnel trucks are headed???

            • @ Az fred,

                 Evenin Sir,

                   I am curious about this….by rail, by highway? What are you seeing, specifically?…..

              • The generators and fuel tanks are headed to Cali by truck,in small convoys,ten trucks or so…the armor is going east by rail.

                This is just yesterday..EVERYDAY,I see millions of dollars worth of military equipment pass by, tanks,water trucks,, Large guns on wheelsjeeps,etc…EVERYDAY. Kinda spooky.

              • Just got video of ANOTHER one this Sunday …I can email as its too long

            • Fred,

              CL ad says “This is the Largest home system available.ANYWHERE,”

              Uh, not even CLOSE….that dinky 4 panel system pales in comparison to many home systems…..but I will give it more points than these “solar generators” that have one 100 to 120w panel.

              Anyone serious about powering very much in a home ( and I mean leaving out any form of electric heat, stove, dryer or water heater ) is going to need 2,000  or more panel watts ( like 8-10 large panels) and a lot more than two 190 amp/hr batteries.

              • For this price you will NOT find anything even close.

                The whole point of this system is that it uses the 6.8 amps x4 panels,giving you  27.2 amps per hour during daylight hours,and the batteries only supply the load, (fridge, lights water pumps) at night.

                Most demand comes during daylight hours. The battery capacity during the night is more than sufficient for survival.This is the ONLY claim.Or you can have nothing….Go out and price a system with a hundred panels,that can run what you describe,and your looking at 20 to 40 choose. Good luck using a system with a hundred panels,for survival, Your house with a hundred panels on it won’t attract any attention….

              • P.S. I have been using mine to run my entire pool house…(fridge,lights,sewer pump,water pump) AKA survival for less than 3000. Sweet deal for my family….what do most have when the lights go for good good?

              • How large do you think the batteries, My batteries weigh 117 each, but it looks like it would charge your cell phone??


            Sure as Hell won’t miss paying more for less all the time though.



        • Point well taken, Highspeed.  Furthermore, consider—this is additional proof that it’s a great idea to stay away from electric cars. Let the ‘progressives’ be mired with their own fate for transportation in a crisis.

          • I think this is a bad attitude if you really want to be prepared.   It’s always good to have multiple solutions – have a ICE and EV vehicle.  Also, providing for your own fuel source with an EV is much easier than doing so with a ICE vehicle.   It is easy (not cheap) to be self sufficient with an EV since you can put up a simple to use/run/maintain off-grid PV system.  Besides you will need the PV/other system for other electrical needs such a water pumping, lights, cooling, heating, refrigeration.  An EV lets you leverage that investment for transportation as well.


            • Since we’re talking about energy…   Has anyone started using solar?   Better yet, what I’d like to know is , does anyone have a self sustaining BOL with solar power?    We’ve been looking for a while, but it’s not very popular and not talked about much.     We’d like to run a frig, fan, and a few other little things, Any recommendations?   Thanks ahead of time!!!!

              • Yes, we have a large PV array and thermal solar for hot water/heating.  It’s doable but not cheap.  The PV portion is pretty straight forward, the biggest problem is the batteries are expensive and don’t particularly last a long time if you use them regularly.  We decided it was best to stay connected to the grid and have a battery backup solution. That way you don’t cycle the batteries all the time and with good Telco type batteries, they should last 10-20 years as opposed to 3 if you cycle them daily for a totally off-grid solution.    If you really want a long term solution and have the space a PV with pumped water storage (as opposed to batteries) and mini hydro solution would be the best long term solution available now. Of course if you have the water flow, just a mini hydro is probably better than PV.

                Ultimately I think the best solution will probably be PV/Wind with reversible fuel cell.  They are just now being tested/experimented in commercial arena, so an affordable small scale solution is still a ways off.

                In a true BOL area, an EV is probably not going to do you a lot of good since the range is < 100 miles, but they are a potential cost mitigation strategy with some resilience.

                If you look at PV, just keep in mind, a grid-tied system with no batteries provides no resilience, only cost mitigation.  Google “AC Couple PV” for solutions that allow traditional grid tied systems to be used with batteries.   If you have grid power and expect it to be there “most of the time” then an AC coupled solution is probably better that a DC coupled traditional off-grid setup.  Here is a pretty good article talking about it:


                • We run a similar solar powered setup…..grid tied, but battery backup.  Battery is an Absolyte GNP II, 1200amp/hr, 24v.  Bought 3 sets of them from a cell phone company that was selling out to new owners for scrap price ( 2 sets were new, one used ) 3,000lbs per set.  6kw PV ( 30 panels around 200w ea ). Expanding another 10 panels (255w ea) in the next month.  Provides us now with about 600kw/hrs/month.  Flip of a transfer switch, and we can go offline. 600hr/month will provide lights, refrigeration ( including a freezer ) and use of some items like washing machine…..all the things that made the 20th century great !

                  As you noted, expensive, but eliminated out electric bill, and they pay us about $400/yr ( covers the propane bill )

                  Also we root cellar, can and dehydrate.

                  Heat is wood, water heating/cooking is propane with wood backup on both, with 1000 gallons of backup propane.

                  Water supply is gravity fed spring. ( no pump )

              • I am running 600 watts solar going into 4 deep cycle batteries then running through xantrex 1000w pure sine inverter.  Chose the inverter because it is better on compressors.   We have been running our 11 cu ft freezer on it nonstop for over 8 months now.   I don’t have a big budget and was able to do all this for around $1,500.    Expensive yes, but my freezer has only been down once and that is because we had a power outage and I decided to plug the refrigerator in instead of the freezer.  Power was down 12 hours.  Many days i have fully charged batteries and can use the extra solar to charge 18v work batteries, cell phones, AA AAA batteries, LED lights, and laptops. Sometimes we plug the TV into it just so we don’t waste energy.

                I am not looking to power my whole house.  Hell, i have propane for cooking and wood for heating.  Keeping that freezer up and running is my sole purpose for the solar.   The wife thought the $1500 investment was crazy until we lost power.   Ahhh, nice cold beer.


                4 DM SOLAR 145 watt solar panels $150/ea delivered off amazon.  (currently out of stock)

                4 deep cycle batteries $75/each

                Charge controller $80

                Cables and materials to mount the panels cost me about $200.

                Inverter was $270

                • Nice setup. Just having good lighting makes it worthwhile.

              • I have been building solar systems for survival use .

                My system uses four 100watt panels,that produce 6.8 amps each.

                The two 6 volt high capacity batteries are from deca pro line.

                The inverter is 5000 watt/10000 watt surge,creating four 15 amp circuits and one twenty amp circuit.More than you will need I suspect.

                My systems have been tested,and are self sustaining,AND SILENT, no fuel ever… I am charging 3000.00 today,and that price Is up Over 600.00 in the past 6months, don’t wait…fred3.miller@yahoo

                • Sounds like self promotion to me, Fred, with a lot of baloney.

                  4-100watt panels: $600, maybe…less if you’re using Chinese stuff.

                  2 Deka batteries, 6v, 190amp hour:  About 400 bucks/tops.  (I can buy the L-16version….6v, 400amp/hr from the local Deka dealer for bit less than 300 ea)

                  Wagan inverter: 650bucks (ebay).  Modified sine wave, which many electronics and motors don’t like.  Buyer beware.  Now tell folks how long 190amp/hr of battery bank will last with a 5,000w draw…couple hours, maybe ?

                  30 amp charge controller:  No specs, could be anything from a 50 to 150 buck unit.

                  Charger ?  Probably a little trickle charge unit….say 50 bucks.

                  Wired and aluminum frame ?  Allow another 200 bucks.

                  You’re charging $3,000 bucks for ‘maybe’ ( and maybe not ) 2000 bucks worth of equipment. I’ll give you it beats most of these so called “solar generators”, but really Fred, you’re still hyping the capability of your deal…..

                • So ASSuming your dollar amounts are correct,I guess I should build the unit and ship it to you for free??

                  Your understanding of electrical theory is severely lacking.

                  I would be glad to tell the good people how long my unit runs…

                  Since I use mostly 12 volt loads for my lighting,refrigeration,and water pumping, the unit will run for 178 hours,and how many hours are in an entire day?? 24 that’s good.

                  The 4 100 watt panels (built with American parts) produce 6.8 amps EACH…that’s 27.2 amps during daylight hours, THIS is when you have the highest load. The batteries are not even used during this time, SO anyone who connects a 50 amp load,or as you say 5000 watts, to this survival machine, is a moron.

                  Im not telling you to buy this unit from me ,just try to find a similar setup,built by an American with REAL copper conductors.

                  IM just offering this to people who are smart enough to provide a chance for their family, no need to try and drag everyone down with you…..Don’t like/want it…Don’t buy it…I could really care less…

        • I have found RV appliances and products to be useful at the bug out base. A solar panel and a small wind charger will keep things going for approx 2K new.

          • GS, can you please go a little into detail about the solar power you’re using, what kind you recommend and where you got it….


            •  Need to know:  They are 12 vdc. I have been using them for awhile with no problems: and Solar sourced from RV dealer, windgen from manufacturer via amazon (2 days delivery). I live in a class 5 wind regime and it seems to be holding up. The Carmanah Go Power solar products appear to be a high quality but all of these systems use chinese collectors which in the good, better, best evaluation are better. US made  are best, see Fare well need to know, hope this helps.

        • Yep, the power grid is a part of the control grid.  The less you rely on it, the less you are controlled by it.  I don’t want to live like a caveman, but I am sure as hell not going to put all my eggs in someone else’s rotting basket.

        • This article reminds me of how the scumbags of D.C. – the provisional “government” monster – will take any steps necessary to concentrate the power of its Fourth Reich.  A strike on the grid is nothing for them, especially compared to the much larger disasters they have already orchestrated.

          This is why it would be best for the federal beast to come to the negotiating table and strike out a resolution to the secession crisis.  Pull a Lincoln, and it will be the nail in the coffin.  Pull a Jefferseon, and say go ahead and leave, and there is hope.

          I just am sick and tired of the smirky grins of television hosts on CNN, Fox, and other assembled charalatans thinking it could never succeed.

        • They spent money and just figured it out!  these people are insane, I spoke about this 15 years ago!  And they don’t need trained informed people,  All they need is several people  with: a car, a rifle, some ammo, and a coin to flip.  And no I’m  not going to explain more.

        • Hey you know what, for the first time in a hundred years we’ll be able to see the Milkyway, thats beautiful!

        • WHY are Congressional Republicans fighting the administrations efforts to armor the grid!?

        • Everyone should really pay heed when a scientist like Michu Kaku of City University of New York warns of the same thing, independently.  EMP as well as the 7 reactor stores of Fuchashima have been spoke about by this professor.

      2. off to see the wizard to get me a gennie!!!

        • Need to get mine fixed. Pay day next week investment.

      3. Anyone have fatigue to the point of  saying “bring it! May God’s grace & mercy be upon me along with my preps” cause I am tired.  Tired of being mad, frustrated, nervous etc etc….God doesn’t want us to have any of those things.

        Funny how God brought Jesus to bring us peace and we spend Christmas season pulling our hair out…..just sayin




        Thanks Mac for all you do


        luv ya brother

        • BJ,

          YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets get it over with.

          • Yah! I’m tired too. Been up all night. My sypherin has gone down the crapper. But if it becomes as bad as it is in Europe, I don’t wish that on anyone.

            Best wishes

        • BJ:  Periodically, I suffer from prep fatigue; HOWEVER, then the challenge of thinking up new and old ways to survive kicks in and it becomes fun to try to think of new and remember old ways how to do stuff.  I think it is hysterical that so many people have mocked the Amish and now are just a wee bit envious…life is a hoot…be grateful for the many, many blessings you have, look at the amazing people and things around you, and just embrace … it is heady times we live in…what a ride!!!

        • I agree BJ- none of us wants a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI scenario, but if it’s going to happen then I’d rather it just happen and save us all the anxiety. It’s like pulling off a band-aid: it’s better that it happens quickly rather than slowly ripping out hairs 😉

          Or better yet, I think the feeling can best be described using Pippin’s quote from the LOTR Return of the King movie: “I don’t want to be in a battle, but waiting on the edge of one you can’t escape is even worse.”

          Hope for the best but prepare for the worst. It’s inevitably going to happen one day.


        • BJ   trust God more and yourself less.  Yes, He wants you to be prepared, but what He really wants is you and your trust and faith in Him to take care of you in all situations.  This is when your peace and joy in Him will return.

          As far as Christ(mas) goes.  Well, I just don’t participate in what the world calls christmas.  Thank Him for coming as He did:

          And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us…John 1:14

          and remember why He came and the Glory of His resurection.  You are in my prayers BJ.  God Bless You.


        • Yeah BJ, I am so exhausted from this anger I have inside me right now. Goin to the Dojo tonight to vent some of it. Hope it works. I’m starting to enjoy getting stomped by my Sensei! Does that make me a masachist?

          • getting my ribs kicked in by sensei is one of my favorite pasttimes!

            • Mac;  Nobody has to be informed.  Dont they still make insulators out of glass or ceramic.  Teenagers out in country with 22’s just having fun could knock out half a city.  Ooops! Was that top secret.

      4. That’s a pipe dream. Like it or not we are tied to and dependent on the outside world. Being able to generate your own power needs for a time will be very helpful but when the rest of society crashes it will only be a temporary reprieve before even the best prepared feel the effects.

        • Hi John, I thought of buying a generator, then after pricing them I thought “How much in groceries could I buy for the cost of it, and what will I do if there is no more fuel. That generator then becomes a useless hulk of metal. I passed on the generator idea awhile ago. I am still considering solar or wind or a combination, but I am afraid that what is to come will happen before I can afford those. Keep preppin’! Clay

          • I’ve chosen to just prep for totally non-electric also, Clay – that is just too big of a purchase for my budget for something that will likely become a really large paperweight.

            Sure, I’d prefer greatly to have electricity and running water, but if the day comes when I don’t, we’ll be okay.

          • Clay..if you find a solar generator reasonably priced, please share with all us.

            I found one for $1700, discounted from $2200 (for a speical time only–which made me even more suspicious)and can’t find any help/advise on the effectiveness of it so it’s on hold.

            Solar oven is my next purchase, but I really want a solar generator, just not a $6000 one.

            • Every “solar generator” I’ve seen are overpriced, underpowered pcs of junk. About all they are capable of is powering a laptop and charging a cell phone.  They WILL not run much of anything else past an hour or two.  Do not waste your money on them.

              • thank you so very very much..that gets marked off the ‘to get’ list and now, that money can be stored for uses later(wink-wink) for other things still needed.

                Like that global sun oven order and more industrial work pants(easier to hand wash than jeans :-))

                Any thoughts on that global sun oven? I have an email friend in Arizona; she says she loves hers.


              • Attaching the title “generator” to a battery pack is simply false advertizing IMHO…..even if it’s a really GOOD battery, it’s just a battery.  These deals are designed to separate folks that know little about electrical power from their money.

                And if you notice, there is a real lack of the specs on the power.  I did see this one is 50amp/hr…..far less than the typical single golf cart battery.

              • I researched that one–it didn’t list batteries.

          • I think the solar panels with the deep cycle batteries is the way to go. Not sure when things go critical but my guess is within the next year. There is  nothing now stopping Obama from going Castro all the way.

      5. EMP would do large parts of the country or world at once. But yes you are correct. I really would not take much. I am afraid to even tell you what field I’m in.

        • @anonmymous

          you are right , it really wouldnt take much at all.. when i read one second after, i thought that was pretty scarry, but then what i realized was one thing in the book was missing and that one thing is terrifying… if an EMP or a solar flare is big enough to kill the power everywhere…. then there is nothing to keep the nuclear plants from melting down, and that is something worth really worring about.. and that is what was not in one second after and thats what is terrifying

          • I was told by a nuclear engineer that the “worst case plan” is for these plants to default to a safe condition if all power is lost, but I have a hard time believing that everything will go according to “plan”, especially since I live downwind of one.

            • American reactors should shut down with no meltdown. The problem is they cannot stay that way forever. Eventually things will start to degrade and then problems will arise. There will be no cavalry riding to the rescue.

      6. The government cannot handle the power disruptions from a single minimal hurricane. They are woefully ill-prepared for an organized coordinated attack on the national power grid. That is assuming the attack is legitimately terror related and not a false flag event used to facilitate the imposition of the most onerous provisions within the National Defense Resources Preparedness Executive Order.

        Thanks Mac.

      7. How this hasn’t yet is beyond me. Expect it soon. A few semi-knowledgeable people could pull this off.

        • First, they will take down command and control utilizing well placed debutantes, with email accounts.  Then, while the big head is distractracted by the little head,  the bad guys will swoop in and destroy! So, how do we protect against this??  Eunichs, that’s what we need.  Think outside the box! (no pun intended).

      8. “So serious are the problems, that a coordinated attack by just a few people in just a few critical components could wreak such havoc that the effects would be measured in hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of lives.”

        I smell another “inside job” brewing, i.e. just before Obama is subpoenaed for his cover up role with the Benghazi murders.


        Aside from that possible scenario folks, something BIG is about to happen out there. I can feel it in my bones. It feels like a combination of “disasters” are about to all come together at once. Could happen any day, any moment. Time for that “last minute shopping” spree to get the final provisions for riding out the “storm”.   The believe the next few weeks of November are going to be heavy, on a global scale. Hang on to your hats!

        • Fiscal cliff, WWIII, secessionist movement, white Americans becoming a minority, Mayan calendar, hurricane, etc.

          Meh. Whens the new doomsday preppers episode coming on?


          • Right ater they do the remakes of: I Love Lucy

        • Hey EA, I agree, we have stepped up the pace of our prepping greatly since the just after the elections. Unfortunately most people will be more concerned with holiday shopping then putting things up for the eventual rainy day. I hope those flat screens, iPads and the like taste good because that may be all the sheeple have.  Also, love your dogs. Peace Clay

          • All our grown kids have asked for preps for Christmas…I am very proud of them.  One of our daughters gave us a list of Christmas wishes that included:  Wool socks, mace, hand warmers, batteries, and seeds.

            • IIC, Hello there, Might I be so bold as to suggest a couple pair of silk or under-armor socks to go along with the wool socks. If they have to do any amount of walking in them, the silk socks should be worn under the wool socks next to the skin, save a lot of blisters and chaffing. Very smart children you raised! Clay

          • I am well stocked for a family of 2.  As dh and I watched teh alex jones/Dr. Vieira video last night–I paused the video–I asked him how I feed the children while staring in the eyes of the mooching, freeloading parent(s)?

            I have no is what it is..many will die..I can’t save them all and neither can you.

            I pray and just always come back to this:

            “His part we can not do; our part He will not do.”

            That seems to settle my mind heart for a bit—till I start thinking bad things again.

        • I’ve been feeling the same way, EA.  Impending doom, that’s the only phrase for it.

          Every paycheck we get between now and “then” is a gift – we must spend time and money wisely and select our purchases carefully.

          • Good morning Daisy

            Let not the ills of the world bring you down..instead rise above them all and use your time to prepare accordingly..realize that the vast majority here in the Americas and Canada have no clue to what’s coming nor going on and are focused on salacious scandals and coverups to titillate their narrow world views..afterall it’s time to fret over the coming holidays , the next  bread and circus sports events, or whom is wearing what at celebrity bashes..or still bemoaning this last farce of an election.

            Many of us here are well ahead of that curve…

            Enjoy the day


          • Take a look at homethingspast and oldandinteresting … add the appropriate www and com etc., but these two informational sites are very, very invaluable regarding old ways on what people used and did to survive…maybe there there is an idea or two that could be used by somebody.

            • The foxfire serie books are AMAZING and I highly recommend them!

              • The Backwoods Home series of books are also great!

              • Thanks for those links, InsanityisContagious – just what I was talking about below!  Instead of everyone trying to live exactly as they do right now, we need to prepare ourselves for a different lifestyle more in line with what was done PRE-electricity.

                • If you do that Daisy , what will you use for a curling iron come  Sunday

                  Hun ?

            • IIC What a great site, thanks.

              I think I’ll turn a couple of darning eggs tomorrow…


        • I agree,  and the weaknesses of the grid was no secret. I too am watching for that event that will trigger  continuity of government legislation to kick in. My perusal of that legislation cannot find any reference to elections. My fear is that if it does kick in on Obamas watch, this election  may be the last one we see for awhile. A perfect storm is indeed brewing on many fronts. The rain has begun, but it looks like hail coming fast. May you fare well,   but  I always seem to be chasing that damn hat.

          • Just watched Countdown to Apocolypse on H2.   It’s based off the Mayan calandar, but it also has a few tips for survival…

      9. wood stoves, every home should have at least one.

        • I got three, brotha!!!

          • Counting the one in the shop, I have 4.

        • definately wood, why people buy pellet stoves is beyond me.  Disruption in the delivery chain equals no pellets for stove.  I go out onto my 3 1/2 acres and pick up downed sticks, and branches for free.  Tons of wood after the hurricane for free.

        • or 3

        •  My son and I do all things stove, chimney and hearth related within 100 miles or so of Salt Lake City, and are greatly in favor of trade and barter, not to mention meeting kindred spirits. (shameless plug)We can be reached via “sootsme2(at)gmail(dot)com” Will work for most items of real value. (/shameless plug) Sorry if this is pushy, but those who need proper wood heat also need good advice and in some cases, good service.

      10. You know where it will come from?  One of the number one free trading partner, China.  Time and time again, these cyber attacks originate in China, and yet the U.S. continues to treat this enemy as an ally, at least economically.  A true cyber attack is not going to come from some individuals, it is going to come from a well funded country.  China has the upper hand already, look at where the U.S. has sold out to get most of the computer components, China.  It is incredible how the leadership of this country with whomever is in charge from the late 1990’s to present, how they don’t treat China as the enemy.

        You look at these wanna be’s like Anonymous and other groups, and these characters can’t do jack to this country.  A country like China could flatten the grid system anytime they want to, these people are hardly stupid, they have the U.S. already by the nose ring.  Could a country like Iran hit the cyber world?  Maybe because they would have the help from China.  Russia of course has some of the most brilliant minds in the world, just stating a fact, no praise for mother russia here, for them a piece of cake.

        I go back to the opening episode on the newer Battlestar Galactica TV series in which this is how the Cylons took over the 12 colonies, they prevented people from interacting with their computers.  This is something that would worry me more than a grid failure, would be if China and/or Russia was able to get into the military’s first responses somehow.  They “say” these systems are not linked with the outside world, but how much of this is actually true.  There are always the possibilites of inside attacks.   Maybe someone out there could shed some light on this.  How vulnerable are the armed forces to cyber attacks?  Could China or Russia get into the computer systems through transmitting some sort of pulse or something?  I don’t know much about computers, but I would still like to know, what about the threat to the military.

        • BI: If it has to go out over the airways it can be gotten into.

          Way back in old days I dwelt with the Black Box (CRIPTO) and that was intercepted quite often. So yes, it is connected to the out side world.

          But thats just me.


          • copperhead,

            HOTEL  JULIET  my freind…;)


        • BI: I love BG the old one. FILTER CARB!

          • You may like the old BG, but you have to admit that in the new BG,  Six and Boomer are hott!

        • Be Informed,

          I agree with you.  There have been published reports of the Chinese and cyberattacks.  As we know, the grid is vulnerable.  Many components used in  military weapons are now produced only in China.

          Chinese researchers publish “How to attack the U.S. Power Grid: Cascading Failure of the entire system”

          China’s Cyberassault on America

          “Reported in 2009 – the control systems for the U.S. electric power grid had been hacked and secret openings created so that the attacker could get back in with ease. Far from denying the story, President Obama publicly stated that “cyber intruders have probed our electrical grid.”

          “…penetrating the grid’s controls is to counter American military superiority by threatening to damage the underpinning of the U.S. economy. Chinese military strategists have written about how in this way a nation like China could gain an equal footing with the militarily superior United States.”

          Congressman: Science ‘czar’ giving China U.S. technology

          “A congressman says he’s alarmed that President Obama’s science “czar,” John Holdren, apparently has been collaborating with the Chinese even though Congress specifically prohibited that activity in a bill signed into law by his boss, Obama.”

          “In a published statement prepared for the meeting, Holdren said he knew about the ban and wouldn’t follow it.”

          How China is taking control of U.S. smart bombs

          Many of the rare earth minerals (such as neodymium) used in producing military “smart bombs” are expensive to mine and we are now dependent on China for supply.

          “There are plenty of early warning signs that China will use its leverage over these materials as a weapon.”

          “Since 1994 the Pentagon has sold off excess raw materials for $7 billion.”

          China now controls the prices and supply of the bulk of rare earth minerals.  “In July 2010, China reduced rare-earth export quotas for the rest of the year by 72 percent.”

          Official Chinese documentary reveals military cyber-attacks against US

          “Buried in an official military documentary, a six-second clip aired on Chinese TV shows a custom-built computer program launching a cyber-attack from a compromised U.S. IP address.”

        • Stuxnet is a highly sophisticated computer worm. Discovered in June 2010, Stuxnet initially spreads via Microsoft Windows, and targets Siemens industrial software and equipment. While it is not the first time that hackers have targeted industrial systems,[1] it is the first discovered malware that spies on and subverts industrial systems,[2] and the first to include a programmable logic controller (PLC) rootkit.[3][4]

          The worm initially spreads indiscriminately, but includes a highly specialized malware payload that is designed to target only Siemens supervisory control and data acquisition (SCADA) systems that are configured to control and monitor specific industrial processes.[5][6] Stuxnet infects PLCs by subverting the Step-7 software application that is used to reprogram these devices.[7][8]

          (if Israel and U.S. can accomplish this, why not others?)

        • BI,


          USGS, Visokoi Island and Severo-Kuril’sk…just happened.

          • Hi BI,

            Anything yet friend? That 6.8 p near Severo-Kuril’sk is making me VERY nervous considering that there appears to have been two near-3.0’s over to the west of Ferndale CA. THAT section of the cascadia has GOT to be ‘upthrust-city’ when it goes given that huge, abrupt turn the faultline makes at/near the coastline. I am WAY less nervous about the Iraeli’s today than I am about this…

            • Correction: Severo-Kuril’sk subsequently downgraded to 6.4 by USGS…

        • The purpose of the US over time has morphed to provide service to the corporations. When China forbid corporate interests within their country we thwarted their supposed expansion in both the Korean and Vietnam wars. Once China invited the west in to employ their population paying them virtual slave wages everything was just fine.

          The US serves international banking and corporate interests at the expense of   itself.

        • Remember the Cylons were only able to win because there were traitors on the other side. The same thing is true today in real life with a large part of the US govt. being on the other side. Don’t forget Cloward-Piven which is being used right now to overwhelm the countries economic system.

      11. To all those people here that share our common interests, I would like to wish you and yours the very best and a Happy Thanksgiving. If I don’t make it back, then y’all have the best Christmas that you can. The New Year may not be so bright; so smile as you have each other.

        Y’all Beware! For all of you that don’t share our common interests, well that’s OK too…. just GPUAR.

      12. It has occurred to me that if the US fell into revolution or civil war, one of the advantages that the federal government would have at first is its mechanization and electronics, which makes them very energy dependent.

        So wouldn’t you think that in order to eliminate this advantage the energy systems would be targets of small scale attacks and sabotage by rebels.  Refineries are dependent on electricity and pipelines.  Electric generation is dependent on coal and natural gas.  The coal is transported across the country by rail through much remote territory, and the natural gas by pipeline.  All of this makes energy systems vulnerable, I would think.

        Hell, a few hillbillies with chain saws and hacksaws could make a mess of poles and towers that support the cross country power flow. And you couldn’t guarantee that some insiders in these energy producers wouldn’t sabotage from within. I live in the southern part of Missouri and there are probably 10 very long coal trains a day that go East through this area, some of the tracks going through towns, but with sections out through the countryside of small farms and forests; looks like they would be very vulnerable.

        I am surprised that the federal government would pay for a study to say what should be obvious, or think that what they have figured out hasn’t already been figured out by some of the public.





        • I am surprised that the federal government oligarchy would pay for a study to say what should be obvious????

          Uh, that’s what they do best–waste.

          Check out the billions that went to solar companies that had locks on doors within 12 months of receiving all those funds!!

          Reversal redistribution theft of tax the rich, not the poor.


      13. It’s also one that was used during a tv series. I think that it was NCIS.
        Unfortunately, the government is basically using it to centralize and consolidate it making such situations more likely by enhancing the vulnerability.

      14. after living through a number of long term power outages myself I do find some of this article more fear mongering than helpful. This quote: “…if it were carried out in a carefully planned way, by people who knew what they were doing, it could deny large regions of the country access to bulk system power for weeks or even months.” is highly speculative. It suggest a group of highly skilled people whith INSIDER info would be needed to carry out an attack and since no such thing has ever happned the aurthor can only guess at what COULD happen.

        Well, anything could happen but this over the top fear monegering beucase it’s highly unlikely to happen. You have a far greater chance at a storm knowcking out power for weeks on end rather than this.

        China is not to blame for attacks, an IP address can easilyu be hijacked using a China address. So, to claim China is our enemy is just blantantly ignorant. If china wanted to destory us all they need to do is call in the debt we owe them. China willing took the jobs that the criminals gave to them on a silver platter.

        Sure, such a senario COULD happen but it’s not likely. Getting alternate power is just good common sense and doesn’t require conspiracy laden articles to make that point.

        • When I worked in emergency services I learned there are four types of incidents:

          High Probability – High Consequences
          Low Probability – High Consequences
          High Probability – Low Consequences
          Low Probability – Low Consequences

          While I agree the probability of a localized weather-related incident is much greater (it happens here about every five years), the consequences are relatively low compared to  a large-scale attack where we could not simply drive to the next state for fuel when our storage went out.  Whereas now it is easy enough to double-up for a couple weeks with a family that was prepared, a low probability – high consequence incident  like this would force everyone to eventually to rely only on internal resources.

        • rachel, you could be right. There is so much misinformation(lies) going around and distractive info(see generals and sex lives) that even if/when the power grid goes down, the gov’t will have a hand in it just like the misinformation and distractions. A bad guy would have to be provided just like the antimuslim video that caused an ambassador to die. Too many lies have been fed to the American public especially by the msm.

          • DRD5508

            “Too many lies have been fed to the American public especially by the msm.”

            I’ll go one further, “How often do you catch them telling the truth”?



        • Just get a bunch of party balloons hang a bunch of metal foil on them and let them go near some lines. Actually any motivated person bent on causing damage could do alot in a short time. thankfully there do not seem to be any of them. Lets hope it stays that way, I for one kind of like a steady boring everyday routine.

      15. Hi  I enjoy this site and normaly only read never coment  This artical is intresting but I don’t believe it is areal tread although it would be easy to do. U don’t need special knowlige (all u have to do to destroy the power grid is cut down power lnes linesand burn transformers faster than they can be fixed (a transformer is only coper rods in a lot of oil )  but terorist wll never do this they lke bloodshed and blowing themself up  No self respecting terorist wil just cut the power and sit back

        • I disagree nobody… terrorists are NOT blood thirsty killers driven mad by the smell of death; that bullshit is only for the fools watching the idiot box with their thumbs up their asses. Terrorists — the real deal, not the wanna be types — are cold, calculating, remorseless killers. Does an alligator get into a rage before it bites you in half? Shit no! Alligators do not feel, they don’t have emotions, they just kill. Terrorists watch, plot, plan, scheme; they hold meetings, they discuss how best to achieve their aims. Both the attack in Benghazi and the attacks on the first 9-11 were events of long planning, not random spontaneous fits of rage

          Remember what Lenin — the original terrorist — said:

          “The purpose of terror is to terrify”


      16. I agree, I cannot see a major power grid shutdown that would last for very long. Too many power sources for a few people with knowledge of our system to make a big or lasting impact.  Not saying it would not have some impact just saying not as much as some guys quoted in the article hypotheticaly think it would.

        But I am also not saying that a propane refrigerator  and heater on hand with 10-15 gallons of fuel is  a good idea as power can fail for whatever reason at any time.  As always though more fuel, as anything else, will make you feel warm and fuzzy when the need arises.

      17. Back in my day right after 911, we had meetings after meetings and brain stormed idea’s on how small groups of people if you will, could disrupt every day lives.

        Its very easy to take down portions of the grid, natural gas lines, oil pipe lines, etc.

        I’ll give one example THE BELT WAY SNIPER. Thats just me.

      18. The Amish had it right all along…..

        • We have an Amish family living down the road from us. The best neighbors on the planet. They always are willing to help especially with questions about veggie gardening and more importantly about sustainable living. Of course you have to get by the fact they look at you like you are crazy when you ask a question that a even a small child in their society would know. They have given my wife tips on things like making your own yeast quilting, food storage etc…  I take the elderman with me  to garage sales in the summer and he has a good eye for old tools and there uses. If he doesn’t need it he will tell me why I do.  For those that think of the Amish will be easy targets after shtf, guess again. As soon as a boy comes of age to hunt he is usually expected to buy or barter for a gun. I got my garden weeded all summer for a glenfield 25 .22cal, by a 13 y/o Amish boy who wanted it for squirrels next spring. I even threw in a couple boxes of ammo. The Amish rock! Peace Clay

          • Claymation

            Their strength is also an inherent weakness. They’re honest, kind, helpful and non violent. That .22 rifle is exclusively for food gathering. That non violence goes as far as self defense. That makes them easy prey.

            You will be protecting that family. At least they’re worthy of protection.

            • Hey Kev, I’ve never had the chance to talk about non violence with them.  But if need be, they will absolutely have the protection they need from myself and my neighbors. Peace Clay

            • I will step in here for an observation–I read lots of the helpless Amish..maybe in other states..not in my area!!!Joseph told my husband…they are prepared to defend their families and protect them from harm; hence the weapons.

              • jayjay

                We knew a few in Lancaster Pa and outside of Dover Delaware. No doubt they are not 100% cut from the same mold. The Amish that we have known would not  defend themselves. They take “Thou Shall Not Kill” literally. So literally that they were exempt from Military Service. That standard was very difficult to meet in the two world wars yet they met it. 

                Maybe once they seen the aftermath of non violence with them being a specific target if the SHTF the elders would come to their senses and realize that fleeing is not an option because no safe place exists. Human nature may take hold and the survival instinct may come out.  

                I see an opportunity for a quid pro quo of security for food. They pay taxes to the government and by extension have been doing it. As I said at least you will guard good people.


          • Yep–dh got my youth 20 gauge from an Amish business acquaintance.


          • Claymation

            We moved to Fl and no longer come in contact with any Amish. I know they love to work and love to make money. You might want to tell them that a business could be formed by them to teach their skills. 

            All of the Mother Earth News “experts” couldn’t hold a candle to them. They just don’t survive they thrive. 

        • @ Zoltanne,

          Maybe so…….

      19. Deregulation of the electrical utilities facilitated too little resources applied in maintaining and upgrading the transmission network. The emphasis was towards lower cost generation with independents producing power at lower costs. The transmission system known as “The Grid” became the bastard child of the industry. Fortunately there was a significant amount of “fat” in the transmission system but sadly that was been cut into over the last two decades.

        The transmission system is far too fragile due to insufficient funding. It parallels the road / bridges infrastructure problem in the US. 

        • to Kevin2

          Hey buddy. How dare you say something like that. We need that money to fund the ” feed the bums and low lifes program “.

          • It was never tax payer money. When the public utility had both generation and transmission they put money back in transmission to maintain and upgrade it for reliability. The money is in generation and little is funding transmission now.

            All deregulation is not necessarily good. Utilities are far to vital to be left to a 100% profit motive. The public will realize this when loosing power becomes too common. 

          • 64 ECHO Mike

            I know too many people that worked real hard “on the line” and paid plenty of taxes that now make minimum wage thanks to corporate domination of US politics that pushed free trade with slave labor nations giving. “We The People” had no one on our side regardless of political party.

            Entitlements are pocket change next to bank bailouts that were necessitated after allowing the finance “industry” to run wild after removing the regulations of Glass-Steagall when it was abandoned in 1999.

            • the ricj get bailouts

              the poor get handouts

              the rest of us are paying for it all

              • SonOfSam

                You summed it up accurately.

      20. As a nurse I have worked with my kids pediatrician in the hospital setting and as a parent. I got the nerve up to tell him about my preps and my concerns about the medications I am lacking. He was awesome, he gave me 2 rescue inhalers, scripts for an epinephrine pediatric pen for both kids and wrote scripts for a couple common antibiotics with instructions to fill them as close to shtf as possible. As he was leaving the exam room, he turned and said “anyone with out 90 days of food stored is a fool, don’t be a fool.”

        • Wow – that is awesome, Claymation!  I wish I had a doctor like that! I just get inhalers and stuff refilled at every visit and act as though any previous ones are used up.

          How long do basic Ventalin inhalers last if stored in a cool, dark place?

          • Daisy, A cool dark place is the important part. The best way to tell  if you inhaler may have gone bad is to spay a puff into the air. It may have a medicine smell thats OK. If it has a foul odor don’t use it. Spray a puff onto a clean white sheet of paper it should be clear, if it brown or off color don’t use it. A slight yellow  color is OK  Most likely it should stay good well after its exp date, but like many meds it can lose potency with time, so you may need to use more of it. In other words adjust it to the reaction of the individual. If you have multiple stored use the oldest first in a shtf situation.  I took an inhaler away from a patient in the hospital that was expired by 2 years, he kept it in the glove box of his car (the worst place possible) and he claimed he got relief when he used it.

            Just to cover my butt here: Never use a med past its expiration date unless you have no choice.

            I am not sure if drug reps in Canada give the doctor offices free samples. That is what my inhalers were. They each had 64 puffs on the counter. If you have a child with asthma you should also have a Eucalyptus plant hanging around, you can make a poltus (is that how it’s spelled?) to spread on the chest that offers relief.    This is good for asthma and croup. Hope this helps, Clay

            • Thanks, Claymation!  Great info.  I had no idea how to test the inhalers.  Also a great idea about the eucalyptus plants (although plants inside my house rarely fare well! Black thumb of death for indoor plants right here!!!!)

              I hit the motherlode on fake Vicks Vaporub at a dollar store recently – stocked up loads of that stuff.  Respiratory issues are a big deal in our house, unfortunately so I’m always looking for more info!


              Thanks ~


              • I farted, ….and I cant get up Ethel !

                • But after you do get up, Go scrape your leg!..Lol..

              • “Black thumb of Death.” LOL, I myself am ‘graced’ with an “Agent Orange’ thumb seemingly!

        • I just got lucky. My pharmacy filled a 90 day prescription for my blood pressure meds at double dose. Then found the error and gave me a 90 day of the regular stuff. What that means is, I’ve got a 6 month stash if I cut them in half with my pill cutter. That is more than enough to wean myself off if I need to, without suffering cardiac arrest, etc…

          • @ Sixpack,


            Evenin’ Brother….might to check if the prescription you’re on falls into the class of ‘beta blocker’…same cannot be so simply adjusted, alterations of the doaages is apt to CAUSE major problems, that class of regulators is – in no small part – an issue of the body’s ‘acclimatization’ to the dosage your on, SPECIFICALLLY…check carefully!

            • yeah, I’m lucky I didn’t start taking the stronger ones.

              John W, my weight is fine, thank you very much.

          • Don’t worry, after you drop twenty to thirty pounds and start moving all the time your blood pressure will come down by itself. Excess weight is on of the key factors in blood pressure.

      21. @BI: Micro activity seems to be up today in western KY, and WVSZ. A few more in the NMF, but not that many.

      22. Heck, when the wind blows, we lose power.   Look to history to see how people kept warm, etc., in simple ways.  Bought a bunch of furniture blankets that I can put up on inside walls to provide added insulation (castle tapestries).  Going to try to find a warming pan (or an equivalent) next and buy a bunch of right-sized rocks from a garden place.  Have plenty of cast iron to put over fireplace, etc., if needed for cooking.  People survived for thousands of years without electricity.


        • I bet a cheap space blanket hanging on the wall would make it feel warmer in a room.  I will have to try it.

      23. Rev:22 5

        There shall ne no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light.

      24. I saw this movie already – “Live Free or Die Hard” starring Bruce Willis.

        I weaned myself off my generator years ago.  I cannot store enough fuel for an event like this and even if I could the sound would be like putting up a please loot me sign.

        I want to look like everyone else if something like this happens.  I’m where everyone heats with wood now so it won’t draw attention later.  My 12 volt pressurized water can be easily converted to gravity feed.  Propane is conserved by cooking with a rocket stove.

        A good way to look for holes in your plan is to keep a diary of what you do throughout the day and after crossing out all the unnecessary stuff, write an explanation of how you would accomplish the remaining tasks without external inputs.



        • Look into solar and wind generators. They are quiet and as long as you have a fence, can be concealed from the public’s eye. They are incredibly expensive though.

          • solar generators need no venting so you can literally keep one under your chair or whatever, inside the house.

      25. Much ado about nothing. The electrical grid is vulnerable to wind. Of course it would be vulnerable to a person trying to disable it, and the ways to disable it are almost limitless. This is simply more DHS fear mongering to keep their budgets up.

        The money would be better spent sending every homeowner 10,000 kwh of solar panels, wiring and an inverter because something as widespread and distributed as the power grid cannot be defended.

      26. Never think that your children aren’t listening when you talk about the goings-on in the world.

        I’m equally horrified and delighted by this.

        You all know how much I adore a good conspiracy theory –  well, I had no idea how much I’d influenced my 12 year old.

        Apparently at recess they were playing and there were “assassins” after them.

        One of the kids stopped and said, “Hey, why are assassins after us anyway?”

        My daughter replied, “They don’t need a reason; they’re from the government.”

        • I’m curious Daisy, What did you say to her when you found out? and Did the school report it to you?

          • No, thankfully, the school didn’t report it to me. My daughter did when we were having the daily, “What did you do at school today?” talk.  (Some days it’s more like a debriefing!)

            I told her that while there was a great deal of evidence to support her comment as the truth, it might not be a good idea to say things like that at school, since most people, including the adults, aren’t really aware of the things going on in the world and don’t actually want to face the reality of it.

            She has a difficult time understanding why people would not want to know – it’s hard to explain the comfort most people find in the normalcy bias to a kid who was raised in a “prepper” household.

            • Close call Daisy!  I’ve heard of defensive driving as we all have ….right guys and gals ?Could “WE” coin (Defensive Rearing),  a term for our children Dais….?

              What do y’all think ????????????

            • There is also the imposed ignorance bias miss daisy…

              The Sgt. Shultz defense… “I know nothing, I see nothing… I SAY NOTHING…”

              He was a great part of Hogan’s heros because he, in a funny way, epitomized the reactions of peoples under tyrannical regimes…

              WE are almost… there.


        • We need more children thinking this way instead of “The government wants to help everyone.”


        • @ Daisy

          you know its very true what your daughter said, and yet at the same time sad as well, it is pretty bad that we have to look at the government as being the enemy, instead of being there to help in a time of need.. i guess i look at the gov. as a bunch of rats that feast off us and we let them, then when people need some help they turn and look at those people and say “I owe you nothing, you owe me” its only a matter of time before this country will be in 3rd world statis because they have failed to do anything that would let us WANT to help them….   kudos to your daughter…  🙂

        • Young, pliable minds are sometimes…scary, Yes?

        • perhaps the petitions were started by the trolls.  would you be surprised?

          also, the hollyweird propaganda machine is in full thrust – think tv like “revolution” and “the americans”, then add into the new Red Dawn, Mr. Lincoln, etc.  this would be an attempt to resotre the feeling of patriotism to the huddled masses in order to get them to rise up, thereby offering yet another excuse for martial law.  we haven’t had such outpouring of americanism in many, many years.  hard to think the lefties have suddenly developed a passionate love of country. be careful about taking bait……

      27. Where we went wrong with wires, a history lesson. When the first hydroelectric facility was put to bid. Nicolas Tesla and John Westinghouse made bids. Teslas research at that time was leading to the transmission of electricity without wires and his research had proven it possible. During  the bidding process, Tesla was asked how the electricity so produced would be metered. Tesla answered, “that would be difficult”. Westinghouse got the contract and we got the wires (and that damn meter). Tesla died a pauper.

      28. Anyone else think of the new show, Revolution after reading this article?

        • badpuppydog,

          Thanks for posting this link!  I had read about something similar a while back and had been planning to look for information on the clay pot fridge!

      29. Ok so what? It has been in the current state of disarray since the grid was established.

        So what has changed? Oh yah, now I remember; this country has itself been destabalized by the coward citizenry who would rather live in perpetual fear and the hope that someone will save them from themselves.

        As far as I can tell, my fellow citizens of the US are in no better position than a pimp/whore situation.

        Another pill will do you….what’s that smell?

        • Oak tree, you’re in my way…

      30. So how does one preserve foods during the summer w/o a fridge?

        • Google “Zeer pot fridge” or just “Zeer pot”…I picked up a couple pots on sale at Home Dept during clearance this fall. Can’t wait to try it next summer. Hopefully just trying it out and not relying on it. Peace

        • Aside from alternative refrigeration, like the evaporative coolers Clay recommended there are a few other options –

          First, you have to change your mindset somewhat. You wouldn’t be able to go to the fridge for a cold drink and ice would likely be out of reach for the average person.  Your focus would need to be on things that do not require refrigeration and for methods to keep things as cool as possible.

          If you are lucky enough to have a spring or creek where you could safely store a few items in the cool running water, that would be ideal.
          A root cellar would keep things cooler than your kitchen would.
          Can your foods to save them rather than freezing them – say for example you pick a big harvest of beans – they’d stay good for a day or two without refrigeration but the rest should be immediately processed for later.
          Try to cook only the amount of food you need – leftovers will likely spoil in the heat.
          Set up a drying rack for making things like jerky with leftover meat.
          Rely on your canned items for meat dishes.  For example, I can leftover meat throughout the winter.  I have jars of ground beef, soups, stews, chicken, ham and turkey. I’ve tried to figure out what a family sized portion is for us in order to be able to open a jar of food, consume it during one meal and have no waste or leftovers.  This might be a good way to provide for your protein needs in warm weather when fresh meat would be likely to spoil.
          By eating seasonally, you will be eating things picked fresh from the garden that very day, and accompanying it with items you preserved previously.
          There may be foods that just aren’t reasonable to have, eat or prepare in an off-grid world – dairy products, fresh meats and many of the things currently in our refrigerators just may not be on the menu.

          Rethink the way you normally eat and plan with this in mind.  Also remember that you will want to cook outdoors as much as possible during summer weather, so as not to make the inside of your house intolerably hot.

          One other note: there are off grid refrigerators that run on propane, for example. If you were able to have a large propane tank an investment in one of those might be good.

          • Sorry about the lack of paragraphs ^^^ I tried to use bullet points but it didn’t work.  Hope you can read that okay!

            • @ Daisy, good to see you back, you were not on the site for a few days…..and I looked for you…..also, haven’t heard from Burt the Brit….hope everyone is o.k.!!

              I couldn’t find the right size clay pots , but will look again at Home Depot (wanted to make the Zeer refrigerator )…..but don’t think the inside of the pots can be glazed?  I saw instructions online, looks easy and should keep things pretty cool.   take care, CC

              • Hi, CC ~

                Thanks for looking out for me. We had to travel to go to a funeral, unfortunately, so I wasn’t around for a bit. (It can never be a vacation to Tahiti, huh?)

                Burt’s good – I just got an email from her today – she’s just been really busy and hasn’t gotten over here. I will let her know that you were wondering how she was!

                Hope all is well with you too, CC!

                ~ D


            • @ Daisy

              Daisy I so hope your wrong about the off grid items that are not reasonable! A meal without meat is just… just… a snack!

              Iv’e got chickens, goats and rabbits for meat, milk, and cheese etc.  and numerous ponds for fish.

              All of the domestic animals listed reproduce reasonably quick, and any extra milk, cheese, frying chickens, eggs, butcher rabbits or even butchered goats I’m sure will be suitable for barter if  cold storage isn’t available.

              I do have some land, but I have everything that I mentioned in a normal sized yard, near my house for security reasons and fear of stray dogs.


              The advantages are that they are easy to raise, reasonably inexpensive to purchase, the cost of care is minimal, they reproduce incredibly quick,  they can be bred at early ages and lastly, they take up so little room.

              Bass Equipment has rabbit cages that stack up to either 3 or 4 deep.  I just can’t help to think that the rabbits might be my best source of protein/meat over the long term.  If interested, Texas A&M has developed a breed called “production whites” that are ready to process several days earlier than other breeds and achieve that weight on less feed. They are suitable to hot climates as well.

              Uhhhmmm, goat sausage, fresh eggs and a glass of goat milk… Okay, it’s going to take me some time to adjust too. But I’ll take that any day over sprouts or absolutely nothing!

              • Nailbender -The livestock you have is all small enough that you wouldn’t have a whole lot left over after a meal – but unless you have meat preserved then think about how much work it is to butcher something and prepare it – multiply by 3x per day!Sometimes meat will have to be a condiment rather than a main course, my friend, like a hunk of ham thrown into the bean pot, for example.  I’m doing a “from scratch” challenge right now with another forum that I visit and silly little things we all take for granted like pasta or crackers require nearly an hour of hands on time to prepare – and this is buying ingredients from the store. It had given me a whole new respect for our ancestors and the amount of work that simply getting a meal on the table took.Excellent information on the rabbits – thank you!~ D

        • Joe, refrigeration and transportation have affected our lifestyles and how we plan and prepare our meals. Without man-made refrigeration units, people will be forced to do without, eat spoiled foods, or revert back to living before electricity transformed America.

          Those who will succeed will harvest their foods by gardening, hunting, and butchering at the appropriate times. They will eat with the seasons, consume meals without leaving leftovers, will cook with fire (and learn that a soup pot will not spoil if it simmers all day), and will learn how to use chill foods naturally (root cellars, spring houses, stream beds, etc).

          In late Summer, I have held 5 gallon buckets of fresh-picked beans in our root cellar for several days — held because of the large harvest and stringing, snapping, and canning takes time). We hold our excess eggs in the cellar for over a week at times and have never had spoiled eggs. Fresh-picked greens can be left on a counter if watered down gently — the cool water hydrates the leaf temperatures. Cloth bags that have been dampened will hold lettuces until time to eat the greens. There are more examples, but remember the processes that deliver coolness (think evaporative cooling/air conditioning) and become creative.

          With grid-down, meat will not be served 3 times a day. Protein substitutes will be the norm and meats will be the specialty. If you butcher a hen, the meat would need to be eaten during the meal with leftovers put into a soup pot or something.

          Excess foods would be preserved through canning, dehydration, salting, cold-storage, or fermentation.

          Look to our past and there you will see the future.

          • Zoltanne – just curious – have you ever checked the temperature of your root cellar?  I’m just wondering how cool it stays midsummer.

            • Daisy, it stays around 65-degrees year round in the cellar area. We hang a thermometer, more or less, out of curiosity. In the summer, the humidity increases and a dehumidifier runs but if we were to lose power, we’d have to watch for excess humidity there. I read your comment #855821to Nailbender — I didn’t realize you were on a homestead or farm. What livestock do you raise? Here, we have goats, pigs, chickens, rabbits. I’ve been looking into Coturnix quail. 

              • Zoltanne ~  You’re a morning person like me, it appears! :)I’m out in the sticks but I don’t have any livestock at this point. I rent our little cabin and don’t have permission to have animals other than pets.  I have to also confess to being sort of squeamish about butchering something.  (Baby steps!) I do have a very large area for gardening though.We do have a big lake with lots of fish there for the taking and are planning to learn to ice fish this winter.  Also, lots of people hunt around here so I’ve been bartering my canning ability  – I make chili, spaghetti sauce and stew for the hunters, and can it, and they give me venison in exchange for that.  They provide the jars and sometimes the other ingredients they want included.I’m very envious of everything you are able to raise!!!!At 65 degrees there are a lot of things you could keep viable in there in the summer. That gives me a lot to mull over!

                • Daisy, we’re both early risers here — it works well for morning chores. ;-)I hope you can convince your landlord to let you try your hand at a few rabbits. Maybe entice him with a few live fryers? lolIce fishing would be so fun — but I’d be wanting to ice skate instead. Our ponds and lakes don’t freeze hard enough most Winters so it’s a real treat when we can glide the blades.If butchering bothers you, clean fish first. And if you can talk a hunter into letting you watch/help with a deer, you’re halfway there. Once you can do those things, the easiest and quickest to clean are squirrels and rabbits, I think. Just don’t say, “Aww….they’re so cute….”  😉 

                • Egads, looks like we’ve lost our line spacing now. Maybe we need to do a double-space to get a single spacer? Sorry for the run-on look — I’m blaming Mac!

                • I’m going to try regarding the small animals, although I’d kind of prefer chickens to rabbits – eggs would be wonderful! Because of the climate and the proximity (100 yds) to a large forest (with requisite predators) I’m concerned that I’ll be in for a very large expense to keep them safe. I was thinking that fish would be a good place to start! I hope to learn to skate this year – I grew up in the South so I never learned how.  Apparently the lake we live on gets so thick with ice that people drive their 4×4 trucks on it – I’m excited to see this! 🙂 ~ D

                • And double spacing doesn’t work either – just tried it! 

                • Daisy, the trucks and fishing shacks on ice are amazing. Would be a real experience to ice fish. Let us know if you get a chance this winter.

          • Great information and advice, thanks!

            In reassessing how I might change my eating habits to cut down on the need for refrigeration and/or freezing, I was reminded of the week-long backpacking trips I took when I was younger.

            This was in the cool, rainy Northwest, of course, but I always packed fresh foods (greens, fruits, cheeses, deli meats) along with my freeze-dried entrees and never got sick from munching on them at “room temperature” every day on the trail.

            I realize those of you in hot climates must be much more creative when the power goes out and probably could make good use of evaporative cooling techniques:


            • Rainlover, I think that our eating habits will need to change if we lose grid-power. We won’t have the convenience of some things but it doesn’t mean we’ll starve. Like you recall about times when you were hiking — we’ll eat differently. We’ll all need to put on our adult-prepper panties and adapt, that’s all. Meal preparation will be different though and maybe it will give us the perspective that past generations often had about food,  preparation, table blessings, and harvest times. (And Americans won’t be so obese!)Refrigeration is the big issue, imo, when going off-grid. We have an RV with a propane refrigerator. It’s small but quite adequate. We could pull that fridge into service as a back-up if we ran out of fuel for our 2 gennys, but the RV refrigerator is running off of a non-renewable resource and is only going to be as reliable as the propane. lol In the long emergency plan, the best bet would be a small solar system that could be dedicated to running several things, including a solar refrigerator. Of course, I can’t convince my husband of that….even when I remind him he just won’t get 3-squares-with-meat unless we go that route. Ha!So without anything high-tech, these alternate cooling techniques like evap. cooling will become more of the norm without electricity. Off grid, I’ll have to become better adapted since we raise dairy goats. (That’s why I want a solar fridge.) I milk about 3 gallons of milk twice a day and it needs to chill quickly once I’ve milked. So instead of using a few large buckets, I’ll need to pour fresh milk into smaller containers (like quart jars) and then plunge them into cooling water.Milk will sour before other dairy products — I assume that’s why milk is turned into a different dairy product. I keep butter on the counter since it disappears so fast around here. Soft goat cheeses and dairy products like yoghurt are made with cultures that grow at or about room temperature. As long as these products are consumed within a day or so (in summer) after they have ripened, they would be fine. In cooler seasons, dairy products could be kept cooler and last longer so dairy in Summer would be eaten fresh or not at all.  The hard cheeses stump me though — they always require refrigeration while they cure. I’ve yet to figure out how to accomplish that so maybe it’s time to research ‘the old ways’ of other countries. Or maybe someone here has done this and could give us some advise. 

      31. Just had an unusual spot for an earthquake on the Pacific-Antarctic Ridge.  This one is totally about the Pacific plate, the one that affects the Cascadia and San Andreas faults.  Will search out before this area was hit and see if there is any target zone that occurred before.  This will take awhile and will try to come up with something later in day to show where a bigger earthquake is coming in the next few days if there is some basis to this.

        The news is breaking as Hamas is trying to target the Jewish side of Jerusalem with their long range rockets.  Again, the reason why these rockets have not hit the center of these metropolitian ares is either they don’t want them to yet (unlikely), or they have to get use to firing these rockets that they have little or no experience in using them (most likely).  There is an excellent reason why Israel is not telling anyone why where the rockets landed, to avoid giving Hamas a point to work from to home in on their intended target.

        Other news is an oil rig explodes in the Gulf, I wonder if this is like Deepwater Horizon type or not.  It seems like a lot is heating up, and it may be the mega earthquake coming that takes up the news soon.  Will try to determine this earthquake threat by later today.

        • I saw that too and look forward to hearing your take on it’s location, usually the quakes are on the other side.     And I have no idea what I’m talking about, just casual observations, but a year ago when I started paying attention to the earthquakes, they tended to be by the Artic and now they are more by Antarctica?   Does this support your theory about Cascadia and Caribbean?

          Thanks again for all that you do on this site!

        • Hmmm, firing missiles into Jerusalem, what could possibly go wrong with that genius plan. I could see them being stupid enough to hit the Dome of the Rock mosque….or an Israeli false flag, if you will. Talk about all hell breaking loose. THAT would do it.

          • @ Mama Bear,

            Hoo-Hoo!!…I didn’t even THINK of that happening…IF those idiot Hamas hit the ‘Dome of the Rock’, well, ehh….I could ‘see’ a sudden urge on the part of the orhodox Jews to suddenly start wanting to lay a new cornerstone…for ‘something’ or the other. (Wink, wink, Eh?)


      32. EA, Daisy, and Possee;  I”ve been having the same feelings since the election and especially with all the info BI and Copperhead are putting out  NMF.    Last night I was on the article of  Ron Paul’s farewell speech and listened to the video.   I was  basket case before he even finished his speech,  knowing he was our only hope for peaceful change in this country.   I broke down just knowing what’s coming to this land.   I try to keep a positive attitude all the time but it’s just so damn hard!   I’m breaking down again as I’m posting this.   It hurts so much just knowing there’s a holocaust coming to this land, so much death and destruction will take place; especially knowing that I may have to take a human life/lives to keep myself alive.   But I will pull myself together;  I will survive regardless of what it takes.  I’m sorry to get even partially off-topic like that.  back to the topic,   we have all kinds of enemies out there who can take this country down in several different ways besides our power grid; go anywhere on the earth and take your pick;  the whole world hates us and dreams of seeing us destroyed as a nation.    Rachel,  I don’t think you understand the true nature of the regime in China.  They don’t exactly have good intentions toward the rest of the world, especially the USA.   Any group of highly-skilled hackers and with the right information can turn the lights out in this country; we wouldn’t even need a solar flare or EMP.   Mark my words, the day will come when the grid will be taken down somehow, and when it happens, it will be just as bad or worse than the scenarios in “Lights Out” or  “One Second After”; we’ll be right back in the 19th Century.    My next major purchases for my home are a Berkey and soem type of wood stove.    Stay safe and keep prepping.   Braveheart


          For you, braveheart.  Put this in your search engine…

          The Key to True Secession with Dr. Edwin Vieira

          ‘constitutional restorationists” ? led by Ron Paul?



        • Braveheart

          The grid just might down in Gaza soon..reports from Israeli site..

          Local authorities ordered to prepare for 7 weeks of fighting

          11.16.12, 16:17 / Israel News

          Home Front Command chief Major-General Eyal Eizenberg instructed local authorities in southern and central Israel to prepare for up to seven weeks of fighting as part of the escalation in Gaza. (Yoav Zitun)


          and from PRESSTV

          Israel’s F-16 fighter jet downed over Gaza Strip: Sources

          Keep on preparing folks..



        • Braveheart

          There is a bright side to all of this mayhem and entropy you so correctly invisioned, i.e. the wonderful possibilities once the dust settles. Yes, potential for lots of death and destruction for a certain amount of time. However, I don’t see it across the board, everywhere on the planet, and going on till the end of all life forms, here on earth.

          Yes, there are down right bad, evil and nasty people out there who will carry on like there’s no tomorrow. They are the chronic “complainers, blamers, demanders” who can only think of themselves first and foremost, and will selfishly do what they need and must do to support their narrow-minded “me first and only” bad-ass attitudes. To be quite frank, I’m getting awfully tired of that particular mind-set and I’m not at all opposed to seeing them harshly meet their maker, so to speak. Not that they won’t bring a few of the so called “good guys” down with them, in the process, but I feel we are all about to journey through a “Great Phase Transition” whereby we will all be judged by our past actions and treated appropriately, while still in our human form,  for either our “life supporting behavior” or our “damaging, destructive behavior”. Those (above) overseeing our actions will leave no stone unturned. So, like I said, for those that are allowed to make it to the other side, i.e. based on their good and wholesome actions, a whole new wonderful world is waiting in the wings. It’s just that, Hell is going to rear it’s  venomous head for a few years so, imho, best to lay low, very low and wait for the majority to get what they deserve. Each progressive “stage” in this process is going to get easier and easier. And to really make it easy? Just remember the Golden Rule.

        • Get over Ron Paul. He was not/is not a savior.

      33. BI: This was a production platform not drilling rig. Will try to keep you updated.

      34. Electricity? We don’t need no stickin electricity.

        Fat Lighter Baby!   Burn the night down.

      35. Per Cnn ~ 3 rockets landed outside of Jerusalem ~ 1 Hour Ago.

      36. Feds keeping sinkhole info secret — State Rep: They’re doing detailed monitoring right now and just not telling us about it — US Gov’t hasn’t taken over yet because it’s about revenue

        Ixquick (google, I don’t use) it.

      37. The article talks about a point I’ve tried to make to friends and acquaintances for quite some time.  I pointed to Katrina. I pointed lately to Sandy.  For the most part, their response reflects the normalcy bias that so many people have.  They simply believe it can’t happen to them.  And if it does….they think someone will come to help them.  And they simply refuse to believe that anything like what has happened with either Katrina or Sandy could happen on a wide scale.  And what’s more, they fail to understand the many ways that this could come about beside by some storm or natural disaster.    They truly have their heads stuck in the sand….or up their backsides as the case may be.  As long as they have their sports, American Idol, reality TV and their video games, facebook and porn….they’re happy.  Nothing can touch them.  And there attitude is that even if it does happen…and even if no one comes to help them….things will still be alright.  God will take care of them.

        It’s an amazing way of thinking….and I simply can’t comprehend the stupidity of it.

      38. This is what happenes when a Union pushes too had on a company that was already stuggeling with this economy


        19,000 plus jobs will be gone

        Hostess to shut down

        well they werent happy with a pay cut, I wonder how happy they will be with No pay at all


        Unions need to wake up to what they are causing, just keep pushing and soon you will be pushing your shit in a shopping cart out on the local street..


        • “pushes too hard”

          sorry my fat fingers had ho-ho frosting on them when i typed this

        • vrf, when the paycut makes it so you cant pay your bills, it doesnt matter.

          • Oh, it does matter—there are ways to cut back.

            I just read a city was gonna lay off half of its force..not sure which forces were involved, it didn’t say.

            The city employees said, no way, just cut our salaries in half, and we all get to keep our jobs.

            I guess I will never be fortunate enough to be in a town like that.

            Kudos to that town.

            • And don’t get me started on unions; my first husband worked at Peterbilt till he died.


              • when he died..sounds better.

              • JJ: Unions have gotten out of control just like the government has.

          • I guess that’s true when you got the gub’mnt feed trough available.Hey…guess what…that’s gonna go by the boards too….just like Greece.  It’s just a matter of time.And the more companies like Hostess that hit the skids, the faster it’s going to happen.There’s one bright spot in all of this…and that’s the fact that it’s going to hit the fan with us and not just our children and grand-children.  They aren’t going to be able to kick this can much further down the road.I’ve always believed that people should suffer the consequences of their own actions….not make their kids and other people pay for the stupidity.

          • Then become a CEO. Pay at the top is out of whack but so is the pay for athletes, actors and our political class.

      39. anyone here from CA?

        trying to get a Berkey Water system and they don’t ship them here…

        • Just curious – what is the reason they won’t ship them to California?


          There is a brand called Aqua Rain that sells a product very similar to Berkey – you could check and see if that one is available in Cali.  Good luck!!!


          ~ D

          • thanks Daisy i will look in to it.

            the website says it has something to do with the lead content of it.

            • The Berkey sport bottle body utilizes LDPE, which must be certified, even though it is common knowledge that LDPE contains no lead, is very commonly used by food and water companies, and is monitored under federal regulations

              (They really want you to drink the crap in their water, esp. those chemtrail metals, so you can enhance the medical industry/Big Pharma.

        • got any friends that can send you one?

      40. @ joe..check out the link I gave teaches you how to make a clay-pot fridge..and it works.

      41. @ sunshine…very welcome…..what a very simple yet effective way to chill food and other things.

      42. @ everyone….I would be INFINATELY more concerned with the sun hitting us with a huge x class flair than I would a terrorist emp attack. I would also be VERY concerned about the earthquake activity we are seeing and this middle east thing heating up fast.

             I’m in 100% agreement with beinformed, copperhead and others….a huge earthquake is on the way…and possibly an x class flair with our name on it ( which could cause a huge quake )

           Also..just a thought….if we were to get directly hit by one of these x-class flairs and the power goes out for months or years…..don’t be shocked to see them lie and blame it on a terrorist EMP attack.

      43. Yawn.

        So I guess this means we need the military deployed everywhere in the nation, and curfews, and to kill more people in faraway lands before they can get us.


        Oh… the report “just got released”.  Riiight.  Nudge nudge wink wink.

        Sigh.  We couldn’t do anything actually smart like localize power generation.  Right?

        No, the answer is clearly to occupy every major US metropolitan center with military personnel.


        This is fishy.


      44. @BI: For your FYI actitivty onNMF_WVSZ has pick-up more sense the Pacific- Antarctic and now the South Sandwich Is. quakes.

        Main pick up  on NMF and WVSZ  is  LAT. 35.5092 thur 38.78384  Long. 88.097 thur 90.6572.

        Let me know if you need more info.  May not mean anything, don’t know.

      45. Converted some  cash into Swiss Francs today. The bank Teller asked me, “Are you going on vacation or just preparing?”.

        Needless to say, I was floored by this remark. So  I ask her if she is seeing a great deal of cash being taken out of accounts, or moved into another country’s currency?

        Her reply was, “Yes, many people are preparing for the fiscal cliff, or some other event”.


      46. The govt. is telling you right now what the next potential false flag event is. Once you are awake,it is really laughable how the federal leviathan works.

      47. I have been visiting this site on a daily basis for almost a year now, but never left any comments.  Thank you so much Mac for this site; in my part of the world life is just about “having a party,” although we are directly in the path or hurricanes (the Caribbean).  Have gotten a wealth of information from you and others here.

        I look forward to hearing from’ Be Informed’ daily with his predictions on the quakes, since my location sits directly on the plate in the Eastern Caribbean.  He was so very on point with the ‘pressure’ of Sandy doing most of  the damage to NY,NJ,CT.  Great work!!

        @Daisy, I got hit with the fake vicks as well.  Don’t discard them though; what I did was to get Eucalyptus oil from the Chinese or any oriental (they usually have some very good oils), and add it to the petroleum jelly that was sold for vicks.  Works well.

      48. got twinkies?

        • I have never eaten a twinki.

          • I’ve selling my gold and silver and investing in twinkies.  The rarest commodity now on earth.


      49. Possee,  I checked the link at   PressTV is just Iran’s primary mainstream propaganda source;  never trust anything from any Islamic source.    The Gaza Strip is having its own SHTF now because of Muslim terror groups.   What did they expect when they keep firing rockets into Israel for no good reason?  Israel is suroounded by people who want to destroy them just because they’re Jewish.  They would like to destroy the entire non-islamic world and either convert us to their religion or kill us.   i say the Muslims can go make love to themselves.   Braveheart

      50. we lose power and phone everytime the wind blows…i have gotten used to living well without power and phone…i love the stuff that electricity brings me, but over the years i can and do without it without much thought. it is a lifestyle thing-when the power goes out i just kick into lower gear and keep on moving. these days i am not so concerned about having electricity as i am about paying for it and rates have been rising fast.  best to layer clothing in winter and open windows in summer than to dump more money into the money sucking machine that might or might not be there at a moments notice.

      51. This is our government in action.Study something for five years, then decide that we have a problem.  When the lights go out study it some more, if you can find a candle.It must be the water in Washington, those who drink it become brain dead.

      52. Look at the some of the WHEN’S of OBAMA for the last 4 years:

        WHEN – he refused to disclose who donated money to his election campaign,
        as other candidates had done, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he received endorsements from people like Louis Farrakhan, Miramar
        Kaddafi and Hugo Chavez, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – it was pointed out that he was a total newcomer and had absolutely
        no experience at anything except community organizing, people said it
        didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he chose friends and acquaintances such as Bill Ayers and Bernadine
        Dohrn who were revolutionary radicals, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – his voting record in the Illinois Senate and in the U.S. Senate
        came into question, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he refused to wear a flag lapel pin and did so only after a public
        outcry, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – people started treating him as a Messiah and children in schools
        were taught to sing his praises, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he stood with his hands over his groin area for the playing of the
        National Anthem and Pledge of Allegiance, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he surrounded himself in the White House with adviser’s who were
        pro-gun control, pro-abortion, pro-homosexual marriage and wanting to curtail
        freedom of speech to silence the opposition, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he said he favors sex education in kindergarten, including
        homosexual indoctrination, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – his personal background was either scrubbed or hidden and nothing
        could be found about him, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – the place of his birth was called into question, and he refused to
        produce a birth certificate, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he had an association in Chicago with Tony Rezco – a man of
        questionable character and who is now in prison and had helped Obama to a sweet
        deal on the purchase of his home – people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – it became known that George Soros, a multi-billionaire Marxist,
        spent a ton of money to get him elected, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he started appointing White House Czars that were radicals,
        revolutionaries, and even avowed Marxist /Communists, people said it didn’t

        WHEN – he stood before the Nation and told us that his intentions were to
        “fundamentally transform this Nation” into something else, people said it
        didn’t matter.

        WHEN – it became known that he had trained ACORN workers in Chicago and
        served as an attorney for ACORN, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he appointed cabinet members and several advisers who were tax
        cheats and socialists, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he appointed a Science Czar, John Holdren, who believes in forced
        abortions, mass sterilizations and seizing babies from teen mothers, people
        said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he appointed Cass Sunstein as Regulatory Czar who believes in
        “Explicit Consent,” harvesting human organs without family consent and allowing
        animals to be represented in court, while banning all hunting, people said
        it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he appointed Kevin Jennings, a homosexual and organizer of a group
        called Gay, Lesbian, Straight, Education Network as Safe School Czar and it
        became known that he had a history of bad advice to teenagers, people said
        it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he appointed Mark Lloyd as Diversity Czar who believes in
        curtailing free speech, taking from one and giving to another to spread the wealth,
        who supports Hugo Chavez, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – Valerie Jarrett, an avowed Socialist, was selected as Obama’s
        Senior White House Advisor, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – Anita Dunn, White House Communications Director, said Mao Tse Tung
        was her favorite philosopher and the person she turned to most for
        inspiration, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he appointed Carol Browner, a well known socialist as Global
        Warming Czar working on Cap and Trade as the nation’s largest tax, people said it
        didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he appointed Van Jones, an ex-con and avowed Communist as Green
        Energy Czar, who since had to resign when this was made known, people said it
        didn’t matter.

        WHEN – Tom Daschle, Obama’s pick for Health and Human Services Secretary
        could not be confirmed because he was a tax cheat, people said it didn’t

        WHEN – as President of the United States , he bowed to the King of Saudi
        Arabia, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he traveled around the world criticizing America and never once
        talking of her greatness, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – his actions concerning the Middle East seemed to support the
        Palestinians over Israel, our long time ally, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he took American tax dollars to resettle thousands of Palestinians
        from Gaza to the United States, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he upset the Europeans by removing plans for a missile defense
        system against the Russians, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he played politics in Afghanistan by not sending troops early-on
        when the Field Commanders said they were necessary to win, people said it
        didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he started spending us into a debt that was so big we could not pay
        it off, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he took a huge spending bill under the guise of stimulus and used
        it to pay off organizations, unions, and individuals that got him elected,
        people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he took over insurance companies, car companies, banks, etc.,
        people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he took away student loans from the banks and put it through the
        government, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he designed plans to take over the health care system and put it
        under government control, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he claimed he was a Christian during the election and tapes were
        later made public that showed Obama speaking to a Muslim group and ‘stating’
        that he was raised a Muslim, was educated as a Muslim, and is still a
        Muslim, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he set into motion a plan to take over the control of all energy in
        the United States through Cap and Trade, people said it didn’t matter.

        WHEN – he finally completed his transformation of America into a Socialist
        State , people woke up— but it was too late. Add these up one by one and
        you get a phenomenal score that points to the fact that Barrack Hussein
        Obama is determined to turn America into a Marxist-Socialist society. All of
        the items in the preceding paragraphs have been put into place. All can be
        documented very easily. Before you disavow this do an Internet search. The
        last paragraph alone is not yet cast in stone. You and I will write that

        Will it read as above or will it be a more happy ending for most of
        America ?

        Don’t just belittle the opposition. Search for the truth. We all need to
        pull together or watch the demise of a free society. Pray for Americans to
        seek the truth and take action for it will keep us FREE. Our biggest enemy
        is not China, Russia, North Korea or Iran. Our biggest enemy is a
        contingent of politicians in Washington, DC . The government will not help, so we
        need to do it ourselves.

        Author unknown


        • Did anyone see this about voting machines?

          Off Topic…

          Short Video on Youtube: Software programmer talks about “vote rigging software” and says elected officials have “tried to pay him rig their election vote count.”

          Title: Programmer Under Oath Admits Computers Rig Elections.

        • Copperhead; Spot on!  There are to many ignorant people in this country. There are three types of people,  Those that see. Those that see when shown. Those that never see.  Or in this case refuse to see.   They wont see until its close to being too late. That’s how it always is. I belive I’m of a younger generation than you.  But men like you and I will rise from the ashes Armed to the teeth, and belive me there are many, and we will take back this Great Country and cut the heads off the snakes that are doing this.  

      53. It took me awhile but I came up with what to expect from the 5.3 on the western Pacific -Antarctic Ridge.  The 6.4 is related to this, as on Nov.27, 1999 there was a very close earhtquake of 5.5 to the 5.3 today.  On Dec.6.1999 there was a 7.0 in eastern Russia.  Out of the 47 earthquakes that occurred at near this 5.3 today, 37 times there was a 6.5+ within 15 days, most were 7+.  That is 78.7% of the time.  Also had another earthquake down in the South Sandwich Islands and this will lead to a higher chance of a big earthquake by Dec.1.

        The areas favored are mostly east longitude or close to the international date line.  A few though have occurred around central America and South America, and a couple of other areas.  When I have time tonight I will try to send the exact locations and dates so everyone can look at them.  I have to type this up from my chicken scribbles.  I right now give a straight up 80% chance of a 6.5+ at one of these locations that got hit before.  Actually this would point more to the Caribbean and the south seas area than the Cascadia fault region.  Have another polar earthquake in another location and this could change.

        It sure is heating up in this world before the Dec.21 date, don’t know about this, i wish I knew.  I just know I have never seen this type of earthquake activity like this before.  Earthquakes should still follow the same patterns as the past, but just with more intensity and more locations being hit at once.

        • we have tried to give you the theoretical reason for the season coming my friend,

          and that your work is very valuable.

          Earth change is coming, although I wouldn’t expect it to hit all at once on Dec 21st, that is the day of the beginning of full entry into the compression zone of the Dark Rift, and the new cycle of the ages. Is it so hard to believe that space time is not constant, and we and the Earth are all One, and the physicists are full of shit?, just like the economists, and politicians, and.. preachers? (With the exception of Ron Paul.)

          All your philosophies Horatio…


      54. There are some really good solar lamps on amazon for about 15 bucks.

        Had to use them last year when the power was out.

        Don’t forget some good books to read while your waiting for the power to come back on.I lived for afew years with no electric.. now….I sure would miss my hot shower.

      55. and remember kids


        the end of the world guy Patrick Geryl

        is predicting an 8 sometime between Nov 25 and the 28th

        • @ Satori.  Please tell us how Patrick Geryl get his information for his predictions.  Is there a scientific backing behind it, or is this some psychic thing or something else.   I have to go back now to typing up the previous earthquakes to lead to big earthquakes within 15 days after they occurred, so everyone can see where the next likely 6.5+ earthquake is coming. Thank you.

          • Geryl is not making any psychic type predictions

            he definitely believes  in the 2012 end of the world thingy though

            he bases his predictions on planetary alignments

            his web site is kinda new agey for me

            George Ure on Urban Survival follows him closely and regularly posts on the accuracy of his predictions



      56. is washington/ seattle still on for a hit?

        • Not to dish Patrick Geryl, but what about those other  doom and gloom people who were predicting something BIG in August …. September …. and then in October …….. etc.  ???

          Where are they now? I’m thinking Steve Quayle ….

          • Geryl is at least different in the sense that he has an actual scientific theory that he is trying to prove

            and he does put his predictions out there for all to see

            according to Ure

            he’s 11 for 11 so far

            I don’t know anything about planetary alignments

            so I really can’t comment as to the validity of his theory

            however if an 8 does hit in the time period he says

            I’m gonna start sweatin’ bullets !!!

            • @ Satori.  I have tried planetary alignments and found out the only bodies in space that have much bearings on the planet are the moon and Sun.  I tried to key in Venus because it is closer and a solid rock mass like the Earth and I saw no differences with earthquakes.  That list you gave the other day, a 6.5 did not occur on Nov.13 or 14, it was 6.0 and 6.1. so 11 out of 11 is not really true.  I am not being a hard ass, I just enjoy numbers a lot and see numbers like other people see pictures.

              If you go back to the predictions that have been made by this system I have found, you will see that it has been getting closer and closer to being dead on accurate.  It predicted that 7.8 in Canada within 135 miles of the location and many, many other earthquakes.  I am not sure how you can access these past comments, but this site has these predictions in print before the actual event.  Please check out the most recent one on the new article that shows 37 out of 47 times in which a 6.5+ has hit after this region of the pacific plate has been hit.  Today it was hit with a 5.3, and shows a 78.7% chance of it being a precursor to a much larger earthquake, with the South Sandwich sub polar earthquake that chance goes over 80%.

              Even if Patrick is getting the earthquakes right sometimes, is he getting the region where it will happen?  Maybe he could combine the plate activity that is really working forecasting earthquakes and get an exact date and the exact location, or nearby.   By Dec.1, based on previous data, there should be a 7.0+ earthquake in one or more of the locations in which it was hit before, it could be a 8+, or even a 9+.  The caribbean plate looks awful bad right now, as does the Cascadia fault.

      57. this is why I didn’t vote
        this is why the bastard wasn’t challenged in 2008
        this is why Romney tucked his tail and ran to hide
        this is why you will NEVER donate to the repub party again
        this is why I will return to the Independent party
        UPDATE (Nov. 16, 2012):
        Since this was published yesterday, we’ve been asking each other: “What can I/we do about this?” Here are my suggestions:

        1. If you are a registered Republican, QUIT! Switch your voter registration ID to non-partisan Independent.

        2. Stop donating money, not even one penny, to the GOP. Tell them why.

        3. Spread the word. Please send the URL of this post ( to:

        EVERYONE on your email list.
        Media people for whom you have email addresses.
        Tea Party groups you know.
        Post the link on your Facebook page.
        Post the link as your comment on websites and blogs you visit.



        Myself and my tribe are seriously considering a steam generator. No great dearth of wood here in WV.

      59. Loulou…a hit meaning “toke” , or power failure hit? Like in article?

      60. Everyone check out this article.   Direct link:        Sounds like the globalists are making a test run for the economic collapse.   It fits right in with everything else that’s happening right now.   Everyone finish prepping and batten down the hatches.   SHTF is coming to a location near you.   Going shopping again this weekend.   Braveheart

      61. Eveyone, check this out.   Direct link:    Sounds like a test run by the globalists for the economic collapse.   it certainly fits in with everything else happening right now.   I’m speeding up my prepping; going shopping again this weekend.  Hope everyone else is doing the same.  batten down the hatches cause SHTF is coming to a location near you.  braveheart

      62. tell him about the twinkie” …….. ” what about the twinkie ” ?  bill murray

      63. Oh for Dog’s sake !

        No refrigeration ! OMG,we can’t live without it, panic,panic, run around in circles.

        Man- how easy is it to spot those who just can’t and won’t survive ANY sort of calamity !

        Guess what. Mankind has survived thousands of years without power or fridges and so can you.

        A few large bags of muesli and a water filter can keep you alive for months, get it !?

        Get with the survival mindset or sink.

      64. @ beinformed…I think there could be some validity to this whole December 21, 2012 thing…the earth will  be lined up with the planets, sun, moon, and the milky way. The wacky earthquake activity we have all been seeing might be due to the fact they are ALMOST LINED UP. This could really set those plates off once they are fully lined up.  It could actually stretch the earth like a rubber band because we will be under the influence of  gravitational forces from the planets in front and behind us once they are all lined up. End of the world ? not sure. But we could see mega natural disasters the likes of which we haven’t seen. Huge earthquakes, Huge waves, etc with 2-3 billion people dead worldwide. Maybe the Mayans were trying to tell us that the earth  would  be lined up with the sun, moon, planets, and milky way around December 21 , 2012. They may have witnessed what happened last time they lined up and calculated when they would line up again. ( they were masters of astrology ) It may have been so bad they wanted to warn future generations when it would happen again.

            That being said look at what our loving government has been up too. It looks like they have been preparing for something HUGE. If NASA knew this was about to happen they sure wouldn’t tell us. I fear something very bad is about to be upon us.

      65. @ braveheart…I went shopping today…    :>)and god help us if they turn off the moochers ebt cards.  

      66. @ WV preppergal….I want one of those steam engines SO bad now….thanks for posting that.bpd

      67. @ 9mm@lori             great…now I want once of those propane refrigerators too….you people are costing me an arm and a leg with all this AWSOME advice.:>)

      68. Addition to previous post…….books and more books!!  I have been building  a library over the past several years as I am a Lover of books and I feel that they will be needed in the times to come……add books to your list…please

        • Feisty??  I have 150 paperbacks from a flea market we visit often…50 cents or $1 each.I am a reader too!!!  

      69. DHS – sat on this data for 5 years, yup – it spent money on 30,000 drones though for future monitoring of US-citizens – we are all terrorists in their opinion. No power would be a great way to control all the sheeple.think about it folks

      70. Another dumb alarmist article by Slavo.  We ALL know how easy our infrastructure could be “attacked” (yet it never happens).  Roads, buildings, bridges, water supply, reservoirs, electrical grid, power stations, dams — you name it.  ANYBODY could take it upon themselves to go bezerk here.

        Slavo claim’s the DHS “doesn’t want you to see this” which is utter bullshit. The assumption is it’s being hidden even though its dead obvious and in plain site.

        Slavo, you’re really an idiot.  Most of the crap you right for this website is 2nd grade level pablum.

        • I suppose if it’s never happened before then it can’t possibly ever happen in the future.

          DHS did, in fact, classify this report for five years, as noted within the report by NAS…

          “DHS concluded that the report would be classified in its entirety under the original classification authority vested in the DHS undersecretary for science and technology. Because the committee believed that the report as submitted contained no restricted information, the NRC [National Research Council] requested the formal classification guidance constituting the basis for the classification decision. That guidance was not provided, and so in August 2010, the NRC submitted a formal request for an updated security classification review. Finally, in August 2012, the current full report was approved for public release, reversing the original classification decision, except that several pages of information deemed classified are available to readers who have the necessary security clearance.”

          It’s in plain sight only because the NAS forced the issue.

          Thanks for visiting!


        • Bored by Stupidity said:


          Most of the crap you right for this website is 2nd grade level pablum.

          2nd grade, huh?  Sort of like your spelling?


          • hi ‘BORED’,

                Gee, simple solution…go somewhere ELSE…be BORED there! 🙂

      71. If the information is classified ……………….how are we reading about it now ?  an informant  go to wikileaks ? 


        question everything people ……….not saying its BS , just sayin question everything you hear or read , because ALL sources are questionable .

      72. 3.41 btu to a watt of elecric power.

        Figure how many btu is in a pound of propane, then calculate the efficiency of absorption refrigeration (60% at best). how many btu are required to get 1 pound of 75 degree water to 32 degrees, then how many btu’s are required to get that water to change state and freeze to go below 32 degrees? Multiply that by the weight of what food/liquids you think you’re gonna keep cool and for how long. At the end of a few days, you’re gonna feel like that stupid propane refrigerator is the cause of all your problems. Get a slide rule and calculate for yourself….

        If you want electricity in a grid down era, you better have pre-prepared with solar panels, BIG ones, a water cooled diesel genset, and a big battery bank with a big inverter.

        Propane refrigerator….have some koolaid instead….

        • royboy

          Were looking at refrigeration not freezing. 

          Cooling 50 lbs of water from 75 to 33 with a 60% efficiency would require 3500 btus (a bit more than 1 KW). A gallon of propane has 91,000 btus. Once cooled the requirement is less with just the need to replace btus. 

          Given a propane tank of size (330) gallons that fridge would last a long time especially if augmented with solar electric resistive heat. 

          I like your co-gen diesel set up with hot water. If your not a power plant guy you should have been. 




      73. Now, propane is by far the best thing to use for wintertime indoor cooking, because all the heat in the fuel is captured in the dwelling, minus what must be vented to keep from dying from CO.

        When the grid goes down, where are you going to go to refill?

        Your solar power plant won’t need a refill, and heavy appliances and cloudy rain days is where your diesel genset kicks in. It runs on diesel, which doesn’t spoil like today’s EPA gas, and can run on kerosine, jet fuel, properly prepared veg oil, heated crankcase oil. And the heat exchanger on the water jacket heats the house and shower. Of course before I had to resort to using the drums of used veg oil, I’d be taking my jerry can to the tank next to the oil pump jack in the pasture about a mile from the bug out cabin. I haven’t seen any cameras installed on that lonely little well thru the binoculars, just a few cows.

      74. I grewup surrounded by Amish, in fact all of my neighbors were either Amish or Mennonite.

        One thing I know they use for food storage is a spring house. its a thick-walled concrete building, low ceiling that straddles a small stream. The water flowing through a small opening keeps the inside cool enough for their salt packed meats to stay preserved. No moving parts! They just hang the meat from the ceiling and usually it has a salt well where they bury some this in it like fish. I have often thought that destroying our electrical grid andalong with it most modes of communication would be an attack of choice for whoever decides to conquer us. They could do that, then just sit back for a year and let attrition cull the herd while leaving all the infrastructure basically intact.



      75. My husband worked on infrastructure vulnerabilities and protection solutions for five years at the request of the government which cancelled all efforts. Obama’s DHS has  abandonded the idea of protecting the power-grid from sabotage and is substituting the following plan:Damaged/destroyed power generation and transmission components will be replaced with servicable equipment removed from un-affected and non-critical areas.” Which means the electricity making and moving equipment will be stripped from places like Wyoming, Montana, Nebraska, Kentucky, Alabama and Indiana and re-installed in “critically important locations” such as Chicago, New York City, San Francisco, Washington D.C. and Los Angeles. (The Federal government has determined you don’t need electrical equipment to raise cattle,corn ,wheat and hogs. Democrat voters must be kept comfortable!) 

      76. Propane isn’t the best option, in my opinion.

        Some of you people should look into solar off grid.  You can purchase pv panels for cheap right now, about 70 cents/watt… couple that with batteries and a charge controller you’re in business for much less than the propane freezer mentioned (when factoring in the propane and maintenance, ie. the fridge comes with a 3 year warranty…pv panels have 20 year warranties…charge controllers have 15 – 20 year warranties.. and batteries last about 10 – 15 years if you don’t discharge them below x%).

        Sure, days of no sunshine are an issue..but you factor that in when sizing your batteries and accomodate for it.  The important thing is sizing the system so your discharge doesn’t go too low..  maybe around 20 % or so.  Your batteries will last very long.

        I’ve not priced battery systems, but for systems interconnected to the grid (if you can do the work yourself) cost all in about $ 2.00/watt.  It’s cheap power.  I suspect most could purchase a 5 kw system for about;

        1.  3500 for the pv panels

        2.  2500 for the charge controller

        3.  another 7 – 8000 for the batteries.

        It would pay for itself, compared to purchasing from most utilities, within 10 years in just about any area of the U.S.

        The propane for the freezer in one of the previous posts would cost (over a 20 year period) at today’s pricing appx (assuming 7 years per fill 800 gallons) .. you do the math.. plus the cost of at least one if not more freezers…  AND you would be providing power to other electrical devices.

        The other thing one could consider are “bi modal” systems which you use to charge up your batteries with a gas powered generator.  So if there is no sun for longer periods than you’ve factored in with respect to, what is referred to as “autonomy”, e.g. days without sun (typically at least 3 days) fire up the generator and charge the batteries that way..

        As many may know on this site off grid living is a changed living pattern with respect to electrical useage.

        Go to “pv watts v1” to size your system if you’re interested.  It’s a good site and easy to use.

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