FedGov Moves To Seize Water Rights From 100,000 Montanans: “All Surface Water And Wells”

by | Mar 18, 2015 | Headline News | 186 comments

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    Greetings and Salutations, readers!  My Nome de Guerre in the battle for truth and objective journalism is Jeremiah Johnson.  I hope to pique your interest with a Montana issue that, regardless of the outcome, will have severe ramifications and set a precedent nationwide.  This article covers the CSKT (Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes) proposed water-rights compact that threatens to take away the private ownership of water for roughly 100,000 Montanans.  Should this measure pass, it can set a precedent for the courts throughout the United States by the Federal Government to deprive us of our water rights.

    The tale of woe begins with the Hellgate Treaty of 1855 that created the Flathead Indian Reservation.  Article III of the Treaty is the point of contention, as it states the Indian tribes have an established “right of taking fish” in waters not on the reservation.  The article has been selectively interpreted and further manipulated to this end: the tribes must be able to ensure water quality of their fishing sites; therefore, the water rights in 11 counties must fall under the Tribal jurisdiction.

    Enter the EPA to set standards of water quality, the Water Compact Commission, a board that is relentlessly pushing the compact on the populace, the Department of the Interior, the bureaucracy that will collect and manage revenue “on behalf” of the tribes, and the DHS, the enforcement arm of compliance.  Should the tribes and the aforementioned players win this fight, all surface water and wells (private wells, mind you) within the boundaries imposed by the Compact will be metered and taxed.

    The whole thing is a travesty and should be a moot point in reality: Article I of the same treaty ceded, relinquished, and conveyed (by the tribes) all rights or claims to any land and waters except the Reservation.  The State Senate just voted on it a few weeks ago.  The Senate holds 29 Republicans and 21 Democrats; however, 11 Republicans voted for the Compact and the measure passed, 32-18.  The bottom line: there was not one dissenting Democratic vote on the whole measure.

    Such actions are not without precedent.  In January of 2014, the EPA declared the town of Riverton, Wyoming to be in the Wind River Indian Reservation.  Other figures in this travesty of law include the Department of the Interior and the Department of Justice.  The Northern Arapaho and Eastern Shoshone tribes filed an application to receive funding toward the monitoring of air quality via the Clean Air Act.  The EPA magnanimously bypassed Congressional Law of 1905 and granted the tribes the status of “Treatment as a State.”  The town has more than 10,000 people who now fall under the jurisdiction (regarding taxation and law enforcement) of the Reservation.

    The Choctaw and Chickasaw tribes of Oklahoma filed a federal lawsuit over water rights in 2011, claiming the “rights to and regulatory authority over Treaty Territory water resources.”  They also claimed their rights override those of Oklahoma.  Once again, the DOJ and the Department of the Interior were involved in this fight that is also unfinished.  The lands that both tribes inhabited had been broken apart by the state of Oklahoma more than a century before.

    We can see a pattern developing.  Local and state politicians use the Indian tribes as a tool to pursue a much larger agenda: the removal of private property from the hands of citizens and the transfer of control into the hands of the federal government.  The politicians then receive federal funding to pursue their initiatives.  Now a long line of bureaucrats enters the parade: the EPA to save the environment, the DOJ to save the legal rights of the oppressed, the Department of the Interior to manage the tribes’ revenues, and the DHS as the protector-enforcer.

    There are many areas in the United States where water rights are either under assault or threatened by the federal government in this manner: the Chesapeake Bay Watershed, the waters of the Colorado River, and the Ogallala Aquifer (used by almost ¼ of the U.S.), to name a few.  The important issue to consider with this is the abrogation of Constitutional Law and private property rights and the federal government making its own laws by bureaucratic edict.

    We will keep you informed of what transpires in the Montana House vote and the overall results.  There is a saying in Montana: “Whiskey is for drinking, and water is for fighting.”  The battle over this water compact proves this saying to be true, and this writer would really like to hear from you about similar issues where you reside.


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      1. This sounds so much like the same scheme that the Mafia used to get casinos into Connecticut, when the state law expressly forbade gambling houses. That precedent has now been used all over the country to enable organized crime to do what the citizens don’t want.

        “Organized crime” alternate spelling = g-o-v-e-r-n-m-e-n-t.

        • Young man says to his father: I want to go into organized crime. Father replies: Private or Public?


          • “Whiskey is for drinking and water is for fighting over”

            Mark Twain


              • Definitely not the A holes that screwed all the Native American Indian Tribes over to begin with. Reminds me of all the crap we have to endure today due to the idiot slave owners in our country’s beginnings.

                Just sayin…..


                We all know where all this negative stuff is leading.

                • Keep typing and whining BJ. Your EBT should be reloaded soon. SMFH

                • Really interested in just what crap you are putting up with because of the idiot slave holders and what do they have to do with the indian tribes? You seem really confused to me. You o.k.?

                • Civil War???

                • Yes!

                • Too bad the traders in the beginning did not hand out more flea infested wool blankets. We would not be having this conversation today and this would be a non-issue.

                  • So you’re advocating the murder genocide of Native Americans? Nice. ANd they weren’t flea ridden, they were ridden with small pox virus so they could kill the tribal nations – whose only crime was to trust the white man.
                    Your bigotry is disgusting and is a big part of what is wrong with this country. What did any Native American every do to you???

                    • There were no smallpox blankets, except possibly by the British in the 1760’s. But since germ theory wasn’t proven until 1865, even that could be questioned.

                    • There were no smallpox blankets, except possibly by the British in the 1760’s. But since germ theory wasn’t proven until 1865, even that could be questioned.

                  • Cold hearted statement right there.. If The Paspahegh tribe would have let Jamestown starve, YOU wouldnt be here and this conversation would be moot… see how that works?

          • Jeremiah Johnson
            The feds have claimed rights to all coastal waters
            including the Great Lakes and the lands a hundred
            miles inland from their shore. This would basically
            wipe out the state of Michigan sandwiched between
            these big waters if they should so deem it.

            • The proposed split up of the US into 10 sections shows Montana in the same section as Colorado. It is my understanding that the new White House would be located in Denver. If so, they most likely will be stealing as much water as they can from neighboring states.

              • Do you have a map of the 10 sections?

                • AKA – FEMA Regions I thru X, search `em.

              • Who is building a new W.H. and why?

            • Do you have a link to that information?
              Thank you!

            • And FL,RI,NJ,MA,DE,MD.

            • Lake Michigan is being sold – tankered to China

        • WAIT, is it possible that something in Rawles’ self proclaimed American Redoubt is going wrong?????? Oh perish the thought. Not only in Montana but also in Wyoming???????? OMG

          • This is Agenda 21 in action. Obama made it clear that the plan was to remove “services” to rural areas to force the population into the cities/towns. In places like Montana and much of the rural west, bad roads and lack of 911 is not going to move people out. Seizure of water and taxing them off the land can get the job done.

            Look at California. Farmers and ranchers with priority water rights going back to the settlement of the state have been refused water. They can’t plant or raise animals without water. They lose their homes, business and land all at once. Nobody will buy it without water. The “banks” get it and big Agribusiness gets all that valuable real estate for nothing. Then the water rights are returned to the “new owners” and the rains return.

            Most of the cities that are allowed by Agenda 21 are along the coasts which just happen to be in the 100 mile Constitution Free Zone. Inland from that zone you are under the Constitution but the Federal Government is at war with you. Yes. This is war. Bullets are flying people.

            The people of this nation are under attack by those who want to destroy this nation as it has been.

            • You are as right as it gets and I agree with your assessment of tne situation. These traitorous bastards are not representing the will of the people anymore, this fact cannot be disputed. They are in fact at war with us citizens and destroying our rights at every opportunity. These cocksuckers need to be challenged by us with extreme prejudice until they are reminded of just who they work for

              • Let us know when you are ready.We are waiting for a leader.

                • quit trolling John

            • Same’s happening in Australia. The government announced they would withdraw all services from over 200 remote areas and communities around the country. The government said that these people lived in these remote areas because they chose to, therefore its a “lifestyle choice” so the government has no obligation to do anything for thousands of people in these areas. Agenda 21.

              • This is agenda 21 and the net is closing.Better dead than the life the bilderbergs plan.But not alone.

                • G

              • Those remote communities are all dysfunctional Aboriginal communities funded 100% by the government. Crime, substance abuse and disease, including children with STD’s is rampant.

            • Spot on great comment.

            • Agenda 21 indeed… UN ‘policy’ being implemented through federal ‘agencies’ [thanks to George H. W. Bush] using the tribe[s] as a foil. UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples was held on 17 May 2012 setting the stage. Remember, according to the Agenda 21 document – Private Poverty [rights] is “not sustainable” – UN supporter Nestlé Chairman and former CEO Peter Brabeck quoted “Access to water should not be a public right.” This is about control and global governance… Progressivism has poisoned the spirit of freedom and self reliance.

            • Good point. This is all about Agenda 21 in not-so-slow-motion (though anymore it’s being implemented pretty rapidly). The solution is to disobey, refuse to cooperate with the Marxist-globalists. Saying F-Y.

              I have to say, when you look at it, most freedom-hating leftists are pushover pinheads who couldn’t fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Certainly don’t be afraid of them. The jackboots would be stretched pretty thin if only 2% of the population resisted. This stuff is only enforceable by pieces of paper (notices of fines) in the mail, then liens on what we own. Several dozen standoffs will astronomically up the costs of enforcing this utopianist crap.

          • This is snarky. Rawles has never claimed that his redoubt area was completely free of nonsense of this sort…but it does get less of it than most places. As a Montanan (and echoing Rawles, IIRC), I wouldn’t buy land too close to anything fed-owned. We made sure we had multiple accesses to our land, none of which cross federal property.

        • Fuck the Federal Government.

          • and the horse they rode in on!!!

            • You mean the Whores they rode in on.

        • This is agenda21 and it doesn’t matter where they are trying to implementing it, Agenda 21 has NO JURISDICTION PERIOD! They have to show jurisdiction or get the F out. Jurisdiction is one of the keys to squashing A21. The county and city planners are directly involved.

      2. Man’s right,water Is THE issue; but I’m afraid the Avalanche is already started and even the Gov cannot do anything and as far as Indian tribes Ask the Mohican’s how that went

        • When it comes right down to it,
          all we do is “rentaplot” from the US gov.

          • There is a correction needed. Make that payment out to FedGovInc. Thanks for paying, I mean playing. And don’t forget taxes are due on your funeral and any inheritance. Same rent, different plot.

            • Anybody that pays Federal Income Tax has a mental disorder.

      3. Before it is all over, will there be ANY SAFE place to be???

        • Eppe…Not unless you have guns and ammo and guts to use it.

        • No !

          • I’ve never heard of the Fed. gov’t doing ANYTHING on behalf of Indians! There has to be an ulterior motive! (All the Fed has ever done is to try to destroy the Indians/ steal from them!)

            • Anon, the feds’ ulterior motive is Agenda 21. They want to force the rural people off their lands and into urban areas. The people of Montana need to fight this like hell and if necessary march on the state capitol ARMED.

              • Notice how in the article the state reps voted for this,,,
                To that I say WTF,,,
                I guess they are trying to keep the peace with the indians,,,

                • Thanks Jeremiah. This needed to be in the context you told it. Feds working incrementally across the country to take control. The compact was supposed to be about compromise. But it was made just good enough for some who faced an estimated 1.5 billion in litigation if they fought it, to vote for a bad bill.. Others are standing to fight. The litigation for the tribe side is paid by the Feds. The private property owner will have to sue their own government and their own tax dollars will be against them as they pay for their own litigation, also the tribes benefit with 1.2 billion, yes billion from the Feds..
                  Montana needs congress to step in with legislation to protect private property owners. A Tipton water rights bill doing that passed last year. H.R. 3189, but Reid in the senate blocked it. Tipton from Colorado said the bill was to protect citizens from these federal water grabs. Even with the compromise, some ranchers and farmers will see their water allotment fall by 60%. So they are fighting. The Montana house needs to be urged to vote no. As more details come out about the 1400 page bill, the worse it gets.

                  • Dear Informed,
                    Thank you for the comment. The picture becomes even broader with your example of the Colorado actions. Here in Montana the protests of voters to these reps is increasing. It may also interest you that there is a coalition of farmers and ranchers who have been bought off by the Water Commission and by out-of-state interests to push the compact. The old saying: any fortress is accessible to a mule laden with gold.

                    Thanks for the comment.


                    • Mr. J:
                      You might also want to look into a Federal water grab (via the Forest Service) in Riodoso New Mexico. The issue has to do with ‘run off’ into ‘ephemeral’ water (read streams): essentially fencing off ranchers from water sources. New Mexico is looking at various Fed water grabs via regulatory agencies.

                    • Money trail funding the Phoney F A R M group… Million$ from feds to the tribe [that is ‘incorporated’ – a corporation] passed to another corp. body, then another, until it is offshore and paying Mercury group for the disinformation campaign conveniently renamed the ‘Montana Water Compact’ which there is no such thing, so no liability for lies. Former MT Congressman Denny Rehberg is involved in Mercury group. MT Senator Chas Vincent SD 1 family relies on fed grant money for their various involvements. Google will help you confirm.
                      The Confederated Salish Kootenai Tribe Water Compact is unconstitutional, 1500+ pages of mumbo jumbo BS designed to further Agenda 21.

                    • Follow the money. They will aquire this in 5 months at a cost of 18.5 mil. When the compact goes through they get 55 mil and up to 1.2 billion from the feds. So who is really buying the dam? Write a follow up story. So control the water flow, make more energy. Also the fact the tribe extends into Idaho. The dam is another first too setting another precedent. You also had one Montana senator klaisdel? say it would raise energy prices in five states. I read a story about those who wanted the compact. Some of the irrigators were going to be charged $40 when the state wanted water to be free. The price got bargained down to $5. But when the compact goes through, and there is no state to bargain, what will the price be? Something everyone forgets is the long term complications, here forever.
                      Link http://energykeepersinc.com

                    • Will there be ANY SAFE PLACE? Only in the arms of Jesus Christ! This whole world is rolling downhill like a snowball…faster every day. One of these days Jesus is going to blow a trumpet call and say ‘come up here’ and the Book says ‘the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together to meet Him in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord!. If you will read end time Bible prophecy you can see that we are very close to the end of this world as we have known it. The book of revelation says there will be a world dictator…we are near to that now. For the time being we just have a national one. You can find well documented books at your Christian bookstore to explain better than I can. Meanwhile Jesus said ‘occupy until I come’ and occupy we shall. WE will not be the first to shed blood for the freedom of others.

                • No…They (Senate)were sold out in some way shape or form to complete the agenda….Agenda 21!!!This has been planned since long ago.

                  • So true, the battle was lost generations ago. Most people either are too willfully ignorant to care or flat out don’t care about anything that’s not brain-entrainment-entertainment! We’re not going to win what’s coming our way, but we sure as hell won’t go quietly into the night! One year in horrible conditions, but still free, will always be better than one day in cozy CAPTIVITY! Shalom in abundance to you & yours

              • When they start messing with the water on your land, IT’S TIME TO FIGHT.

              • Yes braveheart and you ,me and every one else needs to march with them’

            • In Arizona, they are giving Indian lands in the Tonto National Forest to a Rothschild-owned mining company. My guess is that someone wants the water for fracking. Is Biden’s son back from the Ukraine and wandering around Montana?

              • Yep. You got it.

            • Anonymous, the ulterior motive is this: THE GOVT KNOWS THEY CAN RECOVER WHAT THEY WANT FROM THE INDIANS AT THEIR LEISURE.

              The govt has broken literally every agreement they’ve ever made with the indians to date. Once they allow the indians to take water rights from the rest of us, then the govt will declare a default on the agreement, and the water will become govt owned.

              It’s like giving a $10 bill to your 3 year old. You allow him to play with it for a while, but then you take it away from him when it suits you.

              • That was my thought also. The Federal government is just using the Tribes. They will be removed from the land just the same as everybody else. But first they will be used.

            • Remember, the BIA is part of the Department of the Ulterior.

        • Albeit brief, standing with one foot on their chest and a smoking gun in your hand will garner you that.

        • For those that understand, the ONLY safe place to BE; Established in the SELF. Every thing else, in this ever changing, relative world, is an illusion.

          Once firmly established in “THAT:, then all the Laws of Nature move, spontaneously, automatically and effortlessly, to support the action, i.e. God is the Copilot, always providing safe passage, no matter how turbulent the weather may appear “outside” one Self.

          • That is so true, and cannot really be understood on an intellectual level.

          • You are spot on! I know exactly what you mean.

        • Yes.

          If you are on a wide road, look closely along the hedge row for a small, almost hidden opening to a narrow road. There you will find what you are looking for…..but few find it.

          First…..you must be de-Greekified. Yes I made up a new word.

        • Yes

          While on the wide road, look along the hedge row for a small, almost hidden opening and take it to the narrow road. Becareful, you can easily miss it. There you will find what you are looking for. Many look, but few will find it.

          First though, you must be de-Greekified and return to the roots.

      4. F’ing criminals, I’m surprised there is’nt a fee to breathe air since in their minds they own it all. Be good little mind controlled peons, before you are herded along to the finishing slaughter houses.

        • Aljamo…Hang on they are they will get around to it.

        • That’s probably in the works as well. The good news, our air qulaity is better than China’s. 😉

          • Yeah. And the bad news, they’ll rate it accordingly. Friggin’ carpetbaggers.

        • Just like a mileage monitor in your car, you’ll have one placed on/in you to count the rise and fall of your chest.

          • It’s going to be a feature of those new chips they put in you that keep track of your whereabouts and enables you to shop, kind of like your smart phone does now. It’ll be like apple pay but you just wave your hand instead of your phone. Soon people will be as frustrated with you for trying to use cash as they are now if you try to write an actual check.

            It’ll be sold to the public as a smart pay/fitness tracker (fitbit on steroids)/ record storage all in one. It’s theft proof and every transaction is secure. It’ll serve as ID, wallet, and more. Just think of the apps that will soon be available!

            Oh and if you try to make me, or any of my family, take one I’ll shoot you in the face.

            • I agree. No internal tracking device for me, I don’t care if I have to starve to death. Better to die unable to buy/sell in this life than to help the enemy fight against God Himself.

        • There is tax on being born called Obamacare. Being born means living and breathing. There’s you fee!

        • That’s only because WE haven’t used the 2nd amendment for what it was meant for!

      5. Got .357?

        • nope, just an old pokey 45 acp. Pathetic I know…

          • I don’t know anyone who has ever been shot with .45 ACP think it a pathetic round.

            • Wow,,,
              Id put my 1911 up against one of those plastic wonders any day

              • Marine MEUSOC and MARSOC went back to a Colt 1911 .45.
                .45 because it’s just silly to have to shoot someone twice.

                You guys have a good one.

            • Shock alone will kill. My dad din in a couple of Germans in WW2.

          • From the Book Of Resistance, Chapter 12-gauge, Verses .30 Carbine, .380ACP, and .22LR.

            • Brave heart.
              I never understood why anyone would waste time and money on a 380. They have 1/2 stopping power of a 9MM, shorter range. What is the advantage? why do you buy such a gun?

              • James Bond had one. LOL.

            • Sweet.

      6. Got Militia?

        sure woke up the BLM

        and I still dont buy that ol Harry Ass Reid got his eye injury trying to get buff at his age

        all I know is its very hard to steal something guarded by serious people and their guns 24-7

        quit putting up with it,, you dont have to

        • What i dont get is how they can now after the fact come in and take the peoples water, regardless of the natives, this crap should have been set long before anyone bought any of this land,
          If the government came into my place and said the water is ours pay up i think the well would get a big dose of Paraquat and some other nasty herbicides,,,,

          • Kula, if the feds try that shit with any of my relatives in GA, it won’t end well for the feds.

            • Talks cheap.

              • Government employee, traiterous swine. Your day will come.

        • He got beat down by his bosses for failing to seal the deal with Agenda 21 at the Bundy ranch!LOL

        • Don’t forget about Broke Back Obola.

      7. Leave it to the government to distort and twist language that is plainly obvious… The treaty protected the Indians’ right to go fishing in, and take fish from, the other waters in the area. This basically just prohibits the state from banning them from fishing and from putting burdensome terms on their right to take fish. It is THIS obvious meaning, not the one being put forth by the Feds, that is consistent with the other terms of the treaty (and per prior precident the courts must interpret the treaty to give effect to all of its parts and avoid conflict between the parts.) In other words the Feds are wrong. We MUST protect the Supreme Court from the political sell-outs our presidents have been putting in, or else a peaceful outcome is all but ruled out.

      8. I hope the citizens of Montana can somehow band together and tell the feds to “kiss-off”.

        • Confederate
          I hope that the whole flipp’n country bands together and tells the Feds, “We’re take’n our Country back, NOW!”.

          • Them Hogs, AMEN to your comments. As you would say, Watch out for them hogs, federal and state hogs, that is.

            • Stand up,all we need is a leader.

              • John, if you’re not man enough to lead yourself, we really don’t need you. Go back to smoking the commie white owls…

                • Thank you for saying that for me

      9. It sounds like it’s time to take a rad trip up to Montana to visit “our friends”. While there, we should volunteer to help protect their wells and surface water rights from this illegal seizure. Seems about fair, after all.
        F-the Feds. It’s time to get serious about protecting private property rights and the treaty rights of Native Americans. No need to allow the Federal Government to continue to screw the Native Americans yet again.
        (Yeah, I’m a hardcore political and fiscal conservative).

        • Can’t physically protect all the water. But they need some sharp legal guns and funding to make a serious stand. Each land owner has no chance against a legal team funded by the Feds. They need to band together and, with outside help for funding the fight, take on the meaning of the wording. Since Article I made it clear that tribes were relinquishing their rights to the lands and waters outside tribal boundaries except for fishing, they might have a chance but it is a David (landowners) and Goliath (Feds) fight.
          Of course look who won that fight.

          A year ago 3 heroes did their duty and lost their careers and their safety. But they saved 90% of the US population from death by nuclear missle EMP aftereffects. They were not alone. Their God left His mark on their actions when the solar polar flip occurred and nothing happened at all. (The suns poles always flip every 11 years and this time scientists saw all the signs of a big one with much solar EMP flares expected. But only one pole flipped and there were no flares at all. That is the first time that ever happened.)

          So be heartened. Be faithfull and prayerful and live according to Gods wishes. And do what has to be done and can be done and He will do the rest.

      10. Rule 308.

        • Perfect. Cool beans. The PTB may not understand the very well could be on the receiving end.

      11. Basically, what it sounds like is the sneaky deal the Banksters have been pulling in other countries– stealing all the public assets… Public water rights, the Islands, the Parthenon, you name it– its all going to TPTB… THAT is really what this is all about. As someone above pointed, they want the air you breath, even!!

        • Their chemtrails confirm that they ALREADY have our air.

          • People will not look up any longer. Faces in the cell phone trick.

      12. And it just gets better and better every day here in OvomitLand, sports fans!

        Still waiting to hear from some “adults” on which shotgun I should purchase as “put-a-ways”. Mossberg’s or Rem’s?

        I’ve heard from all of the morons who said, ” Don’t even ever-ever-ever trade/sell a gun when the SHTF”, “because they might be really-really bad men out there,”.

        Shit, I’m a really-really bad man, and have been around really-really bad guys for most of my f*cking life!

        To those I say, ” Your Mom called and said that it was time to come home and change your wet diaper”.

        Anybody got an opinion as to which is better?

        Watch out fur them Hogs!

        • Go for the Maveric

          • For price go with the Maverick 88, but the safety location SUX. Mossberg 500 has better safety location for better ergonomics.

            • I have remington 875s and Mossberg 500s and 1 maverick 88. I totally agree with them being so close to equal that I prefer the ones that I can operate the safety without taking my hand out of firing position. I just don’t like the safety on top. I prefer pump release with my left thumb and safety with right forefinger, the rest of my right hand never has to move.

              • Uhmm make that 870 . . . rum. What can I say?

        • You can get 2 Mossbergs for the price of 1 Remington. Buy the Mossberg’s. Remember 2 is 1 and 1 is none. Get a couple of cases of 2.75″ buckshot (#1 or 00) and put a case with each gun.

          • use flechette rounds they do a lot more damage

        • Both have a strong history of performance so it’s much like picking fords or chevys. Police go consistantly with Remingtons but the military is now going to mossbergs (I hear). Bend the ear of the local dealer- what do they sell more of? Availability now my equal spare parts later.
          Where I live Mossbergs are about 2/3 to 1/2 the price of Remingtons (500 VS. 870 models). The difference in price would allow the purchase of plenty of ammo. Just say’n.
          Me? Cut my teeth on ringnecks with an 870, then ducks an geese with an 1100. Now days it’s rabbits and grouse with a Moss. 590 marine coat. I prefer Mossberg’s safety over Remington’s when gloves are needed (always during hunting season here). Otherwise both are tough and dependable. Hope that helps.

          • 12 gauge on bunnies and grouse ?
            I like to eat , so , 410 or 22 works much better.
            But , to each his own i suppose .
            For me nuthin beats my H&R single for bunnies .

            • hammer-
              if you can hit a hare E&E-ing at mach 2+ thru the tall grass at 10-20 yards with a single shot 22, well… I’ll take shootin lessons any time you’re around to provide same.
              When I catch them still, sure, a 22 is cool. Mostly they’re on the fly with a rare glimpse between bush clumps.
              Grouse are simply “targets of oppertunity”, they get whatever I have handy.

            • At a Ducks Unlimited banquet, my 7-year old granddaughter recently won a pink, purple, grey, and black camo 22. Another year her brother won a gun. Thanks to all who support these events.

        • Mossberg 500’s.

          Lots of them available, less expensive and easier to work on than the Remington, and parts are and will remain plentiful.

          Remington is probably the higher quality gun but it won’t work any better or last any longer.

          #4 Buck for close ranges and smaller game, 00 or 000 for longer ranges or dangerous animal control (i.e. Bear) or hunting larger game. Any of those loads for simple defense out to about 25 yards to 50 yards respectively.

          • Respectfully if it won’t work any better or last any longer then it isn’t higher quality. Thus I said they were a tie above.

          • Good point. I also would like to point out the difference in recoil for the auto loaders. My wife can’t shoot my 12ga pumps. She can shoot her Remington 870 20ga or 12ga autoloaders though, bet our teenage daughter could too but we haven’t tried it yet.

        • They’re both good…personal preference. I’ve had both but my preference is Mossberg. Nuthin wrong with the other.

        • Mossberg is perfectly good as a choice, and as mentioned above, you can get two for the price of a Remington.

          Do get a bunch of birdshot shells as a prep, and of course the buckshot for defense. If you can get No. 1 buck instead of 00 buck, you get 19 pellets instead of 13, .30 cal instead of .33 cal diameter.

          The safety is not properly placed, also mentioned above. Good reason to leave it off, if you are disciplined enough.

        • Having owned and used both, I’d say you can’t go wrong with either one. Avoid semi-autos of either brand (I think only Remington makes them at the moment), as sand can ruin the rubber o rings, and your gun becomes a pump. Those who will likely be our enemies tend to use Mossbergs, as they tend to be a little cheaper, and the lowest bidder always wins. This means captured weapons will be useful if only for spare parts…

      13. whether you believe in global warming or not
        this sort of thing is wrong wrong WRONG
        blatant corruption and absolutely Orwellian in nature

        FL DEP Employee Suspended and Forced to Obtain Medical Release for Mentioning Climate Change


        and dirt bag douche Governor Rick Scott has a lot of nerve
        this piece of crap ran the company that committed the biggest Medicare fraud in history

        and to add insult to injury
        the idiots who inhabit Florida put him in office TWICE

        • So Democrat Charlie Crist would have been a better choice than Rick Scott for Florida Governor, Satori? Oh please. Crist was (and still is) a political scumbag.

      14. Time to bring out the boomers. FED GOV worse than out of control.

      15. If there is any race that has the right to complain

        It is the NATIVE AMERICANS

        They have been screwed over from the gik -go

        I am sorry my brothers and sisters for what the LONG KNIVES have done to you.

        I hope that CREATOR hears your cries and does something.

        AHOE !!!!

        • They DO have a right to complain , and they better complain about MORE fed control right along with everyone else.
          Seems nobody has rights anymore except the fed gov .

        • First of all they aren’t “native” to here any more than anyone else. Seriously did they just spring up out of the ground here? No they didn’t so the term is stupid and a pitiful attempt at sympathy for the defeated.

          Second of all the ones that are alive today are descendants of the ones that killed the other Indians whose land they took. Just like everyone else in this world. Think they didn’t fight for land or migrate or displace anyone ever?

          Third of all there is the argument that whomever was first is the “rightful” owner. It’s nonsense. Can white people have all the lands back that non-whites took from them? I see it’s still labeled istanbul on the map, is that wrong? What about Alexandria being mislabeled and run by arabs? When the Boers colonized southern africa it was uninhabited. Should all the blacks leave?

          Fourth is the very interesting argument over who was actually here first. See Kenniwick man and other interesting points about the clovis people and the origins of Quetzlecoatl. If white people could be proven to have come to the americas first could we reasonably expect the Indians to shut up and leave? Now reverse the races and see if your answer is the same.

      16. With respect to native Americans, I was expecting to read about some kind of civil asset forfeiture to address the California water crisis. It doesn’t surprise me that Nanny is on a well hunt.
        Chief Seattle was right in any version of his 1854 speech. A deal is a deal and it didn’t take long to screw it up. I wonder what the great chieftain orator would say about Fukushima. This is what he had to say about the water.
        “The rivers of our brothers they quench our thirst. The rivers carry our canoes and feed our children. If we sell you our land, you must remember to teach your children that the rivers are our brothers, and yours, and you must henceforth give the rivers the kindness that you would give my brother”.

        Montanans can now sympathize with the kindness that Seattle’s brothers ultimately received never mind the water. I don’t believe they are thinking about teaching the children anything about this.
        They use native Americans with impunity and that is repugnant in any era. It is a poorly hidden beta test for further suppression of everyone’s rights by the Corp, that is all.
        It really is out of their jurisdiction, like all things that they do. That is why they hide behind natives, the cowards. I call them out on this one too. If it is to honor the deal OK, but somehow I doubt it. They want your water, and think it is Nestle’s right, not yours and certainly not convenient natives.
        Maybe they can manage it better than they did the waters of the North Pacific but probably not, for nothing happens anymore unless it has something to do with war or control. Something that Chief Seattle envisioned over 160 years ago. He trusted the white man, it was their undoing. This is not reparation, it is a shove. Move along.

        • Chief Seattle didn’t give that speech. He spoke no English and whatever he said wasn’t interpreted. The famous speech was made up entirely by a journalist.

          • An early teleprompter,eh? Another chief whose every word was law that was crafted by back room larks in secret. He had a quill pen and smoke signals I guess. Same modus operandi, different morality. The point is we paid them to be Indians and ruined them. We are paying and feeding 50 million to be what exactly? We have learned nothing while the controllers methods have not changed and have been refined. They feed us all now to keep us on the reservation. It is history rhyming because we have been sold out. You don’t have to speak and write to see that. Thanks Smokey, I knew there were many versions. I guess I’ll treat it like I do the Constitution when I read that. Fiction.

        • The Confederated Salish Kootenai Tribal council abuses and oppresses it’s members. Millions of dollars flow to the council, yet the members are still below poverty level… let’s get off the pious indigenous bandwagon already. I have Blackfoot and Cherokee blood, but that does not cloud my reasoning. Corruption and control are afoot – hand in hand – towards a nefarious end.

      17. agreed!

      18. It sounds like 100,000 people in Montana better get ready to take up arms. Any federal agent that tries to put a meter on my well…let’s just say that it won’t end well.

      19. I am very familiar with this issue in Riverton Wy and this dispute is not a settled matter. I don’t really know how it will play out, and personally don’t know how it should play out. I personal have a love for the American Indian, but many people have some kind of a romantic view of the Indians, they need to spend a little time around them, and on the Res. It might change their point of view. Trekker Out.

        • Lived in WY for a few years and I have some grasp of what you mean. Also lived near the Crow res in S. MT, and N. WY. If it were not for the government, they would starve (for the most part).

          I now work with Alaskan Natives, and they have given up on their ancestral ways and mechanisms, and have adopted other more modern ways — even out in the native villages. But without the modern conveniences, transported to the villages, they would starve to death.

          I love ’em, and have American Indian blood in my veins; but they had to keep up with changing times, and in many ways have, but still want to cling to the past.

          Sorry, but all too true.


          Son of Liberty

        • they have done more for us than we have for them. They should resist whether its in court or out.

      20. Swan Valley Massacre of 1908

        The Swan Valley Massacre was an incident in 1908 in which a hunting party of four Pend d’Oreilles Indians were killed by a state game warden and his deputy in the Swan Valley in Northwestern Montana. This confrontation was due in part to the state of Montana not honoring off-reservation hunting permits.


      21. Ok?

      22. We. YES WE, let them get away with taxing the air. (carbon Tax) Now they think they can get away with going after the water. When will it END!
        What is it going to take to get us to fight back?


      23. Simply put :
        This is nothing more than twisting unconstitutional rules and regulations to reach a desired agenda .
        It has nothing to do with indians and everything to do with control .
        Dont be fooled again .

        • UN Agenda 21’s objective would be to drive folks from rural areas into the well controlled cities .
          Tax the land , tax the water and you can no longer live off the land , you need the city .
          I will say it again ;
          Agenda 21 was never ratified by the senate , just as the UN gun treaty has not been ratified .
          Does ratification matter anymore ?
          It seems these things are being incrementally implemented regardless of senate approval .
          So now what ?????

      24. The EPA will now take your wood stove for cooking & heating and now take your water and your land. Looks like the only place left is the middle of the Gulf of Mexico. Good Luck with that one, as I am sure the Federal Government has a claim there too.

        • They won’t take the stove you have. It will cost more to buy a better efficient stove. The ban is on selling a non-epa approved efficient stove. No where did I see one given away or make your own barrel stove banned.

          • Untrue, many cities are banning the use of wood stoves.

          • Here in Western Washington, most counties have banned the old less-efficient stoves, you will absolutely not get a permit to install one. So, folks just install them themselves, if they can’t afford a newer model.

      25. On shotguns my only ones are Mossberg 835’s 2-1/2 to 3-1/2 you have all the bases covered. Have served me faithful for 30yrs. Top safety rules in my book, thumb on the safety and finger on the trigger. Thumb and bang!!

        As for this piece everything the Fed’s do is about total control of the people, make the people rely on them for everything. One word sums it up CONTROL!!!

      26. They may come for my water….But they will leave their blood. As far as the shotgun issue, well I’ve never used a shotgun in a combat situation. But I’d guess that you would want something that sill works well after 100 rounds in 10 minutes. I have both a rem and a moss, like them both. Hard to go wrong with a Mossberg 500 8 shot. I think they make a 590A1 with a heavy barrel.

      27. Here they don’t want you collecting rainwater for use and in eastern Md. they tax rainfall..based on square footage and the size of driveways that don’t permit the water to soak in but runs off. air on your property will be next. I expect that it won’t be permitted to own private property before its over.

      28. How can it be enforced for private wells? Tell the gustapo you don’t have one; cap it when they come and cover it up with a planter box. Back to normal when they leave. I grew up with a well; it is just a 2″ pipe in the ground. I wonder when they will try to tax the air.

      29. anger

      30. This could never occur under biblical government, by which even property taxes (which amounts to property confiscation) would be outlawed:

        “…The Fifth Amendment concludes with the provisions that no one shall be “deprived of … property without due process of law” and “private property [shall not] be taken for public use without just compensation.” Because this provision allows the government to legally steal private citizens’ lands, these assurances are a cover for theft. Because of Amendment 5’s promise of “just” compensation, most people do not even think to ask whose “due process of law” is going to be employed and whether the government’s confiscation of private lands for public use is ethical or whether governments should own property at all. According to the United States Constitution, “just compensation” is what the government, not the private owner, decides is equitable….”

        For more see online Chapter 14 “Amendment 5: Constitutional vs. Biblical Judicial Protection” of “Bible Law vs. the United States Constitution: The Christian Perspective” at http://www.bibleversusconstitution.org/BlvcOnline/biblelaw-constitutionalism-pt14.html.

      31. so i left this on another comment and well, lets make sure it goes to the right place
        So im from montana. this is a horrible thing and many of us are not going to stand for this. if there is a march on the capitol, count me in. this is bullshit and they know it. time to fight montanans, if the ballots dont work there is always that other box.

      32. So a treaty can now be modified by a state legislature or federal bureaucrat?
        I must have missed that amendment.

      33. The Federal Government is run by the corporations and their political lackeys and everything that you see happening is so the corporations can control every natural resource. The bottom line ALWAYS is money. The corporations will find a way to charge you for every single thing you need to survive. They also find a way to get taxpayers to foot the bill and to give public money to private companies. Just wait and see what eventually happens in Montana — the Montana legislature will vote to give the contracts to private companies!

      34. Mexico tried to pull the same thing, and the results ?
        They take the land back,we take all of
        the inventions that came with the
        Europeans_and what will be left on the
        reservation then ?
        That includes all of those roads that go
        through their lands also.
        There is a tipping point.

      35. Yeah, those natives will be happy to let go of
        all of the inventions etc that were brought here mostly by Europeans, while they ascend
        to open up gambling casinos_wow, and the
        gambling casinos exist because of the tech and know how of the Europeans.

        What a joke.

      36. How much money (and grief) do you think we could save the American taxpayers if we totally eliminated the EPA?

      37. You have THE RIGHT not to obey TREASON in the form of unlawful, unconstitutional or immoral laws.

        DO NOT OBEY, DO NOT COMPLY, to treasonous or unGodly men! Instead ARREST THEM!

      38. A Country Founded by Geniuses but Run by Idiots!

        If you can get arrested for hunting or fishing without a license, but 
not for entering and remaining in the country illegally — you might 
live in a nation that was founded by geniuses but is run by idiots.

        If you have to get your parents’ permission to go on a field trip or 
to take an aspirin in school, but not to get an abortion — you might 
live in a nation that was founded by geniuses but is run by idiots.

        If you MUST show your identification to board an airplane, cash a 
check, buy liquor, or check out a library book and rent a video, but not 
to vote for who runs the government — you might live in a nation that 
was founded by geniuses but is run by idiots.

        If the government wants to prevent stable, law-abiding citizens from 
owning gun magazines that hold more than ten rounds, but gives twenty 
F-16 fighter jets to the crazy new leaders in Egypt — you might live in a 
nation that was founded by geniuses but is run by idiots.

        If, in the nation’s largest city, you can buy two 16-ounce sodas, but 
not one 24-ounce soda, because 24-ounces of a sugary drink might make 
you fat — you might live in a nation that was founded by geniuses but is
 run by idiots.

        If an 80-year-old woman or a three-year-old girl who is confined to a 
wheelchair can be strip-searched by the TSA at the airport, but a woman 
in a burka or a hijab is only subject to having her neck and head 
searched — you might live in a nation that was founded by geniuses but 
is run by idiots.

        If your government believes that the best way to eradicate trillions 
of dollars of debt is to spend trillions more — you might live in a 
nation that was founded by geniuses but is run by idiots.

        If a seven-year-old boy can be thrown out of school for saying his 
teacher is “cute,” but hosting a sexual exploration or diversity class 
in grade school is perfectly acceptable — you might live in a nation 
that was founded by geniuses but is run by idiots.

        If hard work and success are met with higher taxes and more 
government regulation and intrusion, while not working is rewarded with 
Food Stamps, WIC checks, Medicaid benefits, subsidized housing, and free
 cell phones — you might live in a nation that was founded by geniuses 
but is run by idiots.

        If the government’s plan for getting people back to work is to 
provide incentives for not working, by granting 99 weeks of unemployment 
checks, without any requirement to prove that gainful employment was 
diligently sought, but couldn’t be found — you might live in a nation 
that was founded by geniuses but is run by idiots.

        If you pay your mortgage faithfully, denying yourself the newest 
big-screen TV, while your neighbor buys iPhones, time shares, a 
wall-sized do-it-all plasma screen TV and new cars, and the government 
forgives his debt when he defaults on his mortgage — you might live in a
 nation that was founded by geniuses but is run by idiots.

        If being stripped of your Constitutional right to defend yourself 
makes you more “safe” according to the government — you might live in a 
nation that was founded by geniuses but is run by idiots.

        If the media panders to your openly socialist leader while the IRS targets groups with dissenting views— you might live in a nation that was founded by geniuses but is run by idiots.

        If your government ‘cracks down’ on legal gun sales to law abiding citizens while secretly supplying illegal guns to Mexican drug cartels— you might live in a nation that was founded by geniuses but is run by idiots.

        If your local government (Chicago) outlawed gun ownership for ‘the safety of its citizens’ and now boasts the worst murder rate in the country — you might live in a nation that was founded by geniuses but is run by idiots.

        What a country!

        How about we give God a reason to continue blessing America?

        This was borrowed from another blog, author unknown, please spread it far and wide!

      39. When they do come to your adobe, bend over real well so they may enjoy their rewards.

      40. Surely the Indians of the East Coast can come up with some excuse to take over Washington, DC, New York, NY, San Francisco, CA, Chicago, IL. These places need to be purged of just about everyone that lives even close by.

      41. Water is life and we have an unalienable right to life. The solution? Remove government.

      42. War is coming, get prepared & get right with God Almighty! May God give us all the strength & peace to endure the overkill evil & destruction to come. FEMA REGION 10, over & out. Shalom

      43. the people will take back what was stolen from them, by force if need be.

      44. The Feds want to hold water rights “In Trust” for the CSKT under the provisions of the Constitutionally ratified Hell Gate Treaty of 1855.
        Article III
        “The exclusive right of taking fish in all the streams running through or bordering said reservation is further secured to said Indians; as also the right of taking fish at all usual and accustomed places, in common with citizens of the Territory, and of erecting temporary buildings for curing; together with the privilege of hunting, gathering roots and berries, and pasturing their horses and cattle upon open and unclaimed land. ”


        The Treaty applies to the Flathead and Pend d’Orielle homeland shown here:

      45. This is a rather important issue. Water is the most important element for the maintenance of life.If we allow our government to control it we have passed the point of no return. I am digging a well this Spring on my bugout location.If a “official” ever shows up with a meter for it I suppose it will be my signal that I have lived long enough. There will be some low talking and slow walking in my home town for sure.

      46. I’d rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

      47. The USSC has already ruled that the government can regulate all commerce.

        Why the surprise at the dog bites man story?

      48. This Could Be The End!

        • the SCOTUS is wrong… and SCOTUS does not have legislative power nor power to wewrite Article 1 Sec. 8 of the Constitution for the States United in America by misinterpretation – my mistake or by intent.

      49. They have zero right to do that. Water like air is a gift from GOD and no man should be able to take that away. Or am I wrong and Nestle and big biz god ?

      50. Recently the State of California enacted a law giving itself control of all water in the state. This also includes lands considered wetlands. Each county will be putting together another bureaucracy to over see this water. In turn it is anticipated they will start taxing the amount of water taken from wells by property owners and farmers. I see this as another way to control the population. Keep them in the cities since it will be too expensive in the country.

      51. Climate Change is part of Agenda 21. It’s basically just a way to control people.And of course new taxes will be needed. Watching people almost begging for the government to
        act on so called climate change.Its really evil. When people don’t look at the big picture and in a long term kind of a way.The overloading of our current system so it will collapse,Then a new system will be offered.It will have saving our planet as part of it.People will beg for it and anyone who disagrees will be attacked.People wanted CHANGE. Yep, its coming,We won’t like it.Unless you’re a communist one world government kind of a person.

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