Selco On Stopping Power: “I Have Seen and Been in Lots of Gunfights in Real Life”

by | May 3, 2014 | Emergency Preparedness, Selco | 186 comments

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    The following article has been contributed by Selco at SHTF School. As a survivor of the Balkan War and subsequent collapse of life in the region during the 1990’s Selco experienced the worst that humanity has to offer. He’s seen it and lived it with his own eyes and he has graciously agreed to share his experiences with our audience. We urge you to check out Selco’s One Year In Hell Survival Course and visit his community forum where you can ask questions and discuss survival and preparedness topics with others.


    Another great and favourite topic in survival community is matter of best caliber and weapon for SHTF, and ammo with most stopping power. Stopping power means how quickly and with few bullets you can make threat unable to attack you or anyone else.

    I tell you now, even for urban survival and the situation I have been through and speak about in my course, it is more important to discuss water filtering in urban SHTF scenarios than talking about stopping power.

    Do not get me wrong, I am perfectly aware that burst from the machine gun in the man standing in front of you will do much more damage (and probably will stop him forever) than shooting at him with a pistol.

    I have seen and been in lots of gunfights and in real life, shootings are not so simple that guy with bigger gun wins.

    It is about you

    Guy who was standing next to me pulls pistol (TT 7.62 mm like in the picture above) at attacker who was starting to run away from us. I did not want to shoot at the guy because he was running away from us, and I thought he did not need to be shot, but my friend thought different.

    Anyway, he raises the pistol, and fired 6 bullets at the guy. Guy was some 6-7 meters from him. And he missed him, all six bullets missed the guy, who run away.

    Guy who was running away was moving away from us, but not in straight line, he was moving diagonally so I guess that adds little bit to why all bullets missed.

    But man who was shooting from the pistol did next:

    1. He held the pistol with one hand
    2. Fired 6 shots in very fast manner (recoil did its job so he did not spend to reacquire target)
    3. Screamed very loud while shooting

    I had (and still have) lot of confidence in TT pistol, it is reliable and scary thing in good hands, and can do lot of damage.
    But point is that you are the man who makes the shot (and kills). So first you need to work on your skills. A .22 bullet to the head is worth more than .45 to the shoulder. Common sense.

    Weapon is something that in my opinion needs to be good and correct for you and your hand. There is no point in having some weapon just because it is good for someone else, maybe it is completely wrong for you.

    Recoil, trigger pull and general feel are just few of many factors that determine what makes sense. Get gun that enables you to hit your target even if people on shooting range shoot bigger caliber. We train for survival and not to show off.

    About gunshot wounds

    Gunshot wounds are kinda strange stuff, because you never know what you can expect from it. When bullets enter the body it can make quite interesting stuff, so I have seen people being hit from high caliber weapon and they even did not know they are hit, OK adrenaline works there too, but it is simply important the vital organs are damaged.

    Bullets can have very weird path once they enter the body, so even if entrance wound looks not so dangerous it still can shred organs in body.

    You never know what it will be, because there are many factors involved like weapon caliber, distance, angle… Bullets ricocheting from wall or ceiling above you still can kill you, actually small pieces of wall exploded from bullet hits can kill you if they hit right spot.

    Generally speaking exit wound (if there is any) should look more “nasty” than entrance wound, but still there were cases when in middle of the fight some folks did not know they had any wound at all, until later they were carefully examined and entrance and exit wound were found.

    I treated man once who had gunshot wound in forearm, some 10 minutes after the battle people pointed at him and at the blood coming all along his arm and fingers. He had entrance and exit wound, no bone damaged, and still no pain. Adrenaline.

    Stopping power, penetration etc.

    Remember the guy from the beginning of the post, maybe if he had knife or alternative weapon in that moment he would stop that man with more success.

    And yes, I would always choose to have good and reliable pistol over a spear, but you get my point. I have seen guys who “stop” other guys with bullets from .22 CZ rifle in some very very cool (and scary) way, and on quite some distance. They simply were good with that rifle.

    Shots in the head and chest have more chances to “stop” a man. Man can be also stopped with few shots in legs, but remember that he still can shoot you.

    Still do not expect that man will be “blown away” with one shot in the chest, like i movies. Even if you hit the man in heart, he still have chance to shoot you.

    So in short, yes, bullets in chest and head are good, but BULLETS not A BULLET. Just be sure. Keep shooting until the threat is gone. Nothing worse than stopping too early.

    Bullets in the stomach are bad things, but I have seen people firing back at their attacker with rifle with their intestines hanging out.

    Also important to consider is the meaning of the word “cover”. Remember that some things just cannot give you enough cover. There is not much better than big pile of compact dirt or concrete wall between you and man who shoots at you.

    Use common sense with taking cover, objects like wooden door, bush, glass and similar are not cover, they are concealment. They can maybe HIDE you, but you still can be killed with bullets through it.

    Many times I mentioned it that in SHTF you need lots of ammo, people shoot at whatever is suspicious. If you are hiding behind wooden door, attacker can shoot burst just through the door, to be sure. You are not covered.

    Will to kill

    When I wrote those 3 points about what the guy with TT gun did and why he did not shoot the other man, there needs probably (but I never know for sure) to be number 4 and that is “he did not want to kill the man”.

    Yes, even in life threatening situations lots of people simply would choose not to kill, even if that means death for them. I believe it is something that some people simply can not do. They are not capable of that, to take some other mans life.

    Maybe it looks that this is not connected with this topic about stopping power, but it is. So while choosing what weapon is good for you, you need to ask yourself “am I capable of taking other mans life?”. Any hesitation can kill you when it matters, whatever caliber you have.

    Lesson here is, instead of researching “tacticool” stuff online, learning about survival and going down to shooting range and finding gun with common round in the area that one shoots well with is what makes sense. The gun you know how to use best has biggest stopping power.

    Visit Selco’s Community Forum to discuss this and other topics

    You can follow Selco’s story at SHTF School and learn how he survived one year in hell. 


    More Excellent Reading From Selco:

    A Survival Q & A: Living Through SHTF In the Middle of A War Zone

    Advice From A Collapse Survivor: “RUN!” From Major Cities

    Collapse Reality: “If I Had to Be an Animal, I Was an Animal. It Was About Survival.”


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      1. The mind is always the biggest
        caliber in a gun fight.

          • I joined Selco’s site some time back. Well worth it. He gives lots of good perspective on the realities of a bad situation.

            • My carry weapon is the Glock 21 – the .45 ACP. Even though it has a big kick to it, being so heavy it comes down almost exactly on target for the next shot.

              Aside from that I like my AR and my Mossberg 500.

              • Size does matter

                • That’s what she said

                  • Hitlary bangs women with strap-ons.

                • I’m surprised no one has said shot placement… that rules the day!

                  • I knew ya had that covered

                  • Bullet speed is king.

                  • @jerrytbg; I believe he did…”.22 to the head (vs) .45 to shoulder….??? Shot placement?

                  • Wow, you mean Selco has a chat forum and Mac doesn’t? Guess I’m moving then.

              • I love my 21 (short frame version) .45 has the best side arm stopping power that is controllable going. It has nothing to do with bullet speed as a.45 round is one of the slowest In terms of fps numbers. It has to do with energy transfer into the target. A faster bullet speed doesn’t do much for stopping power as the energy transfer doesn’t happen if if the bullet travels easily through the target. Bullet speeds are more helpful for distance shots to prevent bullet drop at distance for accuracy.

                • .45’s are great, proven bullet. I carry the 10mm as BG’s are becoming tac oriented. It hits hard, very hard where busting up ribs and slowing one down with gear will assist. but hey, we carry what we train and use. All good.

            • Grafique, I joined it back in 2012. he’s already lived thru a TRUE MEGA-SHTF scenario known as collapse of society and he has valuable information on what we all can expect when it finally happens here.

          • Having a deep rooted, old-fashioned, burning hot hatred for your opponent, I am convinced – is a huge advantage and can help nudge you into taking the necessary actions to get the job done.

            The diabolically evil Communists on the left seem to grasp this important point, or they at least have a basic fundamental understanding of it – because that’s why the greasy maggots are always whining and bleating about how ‘awful hate is’ and why they are constantly looking for ways to pass laws to make ‘hate’ a federal crime.

            The left also understands that the conservatives in the red states, i.e., the traditional founding stock of the same nation that the left despises and which they are working as hard as they can to subvert, pervert and destroy – harbors intense hatred for the left and for every aspect of it’s sick, twisted, depraved, and totalitarian agenda. This awareness of how deeply the normal conservative Americans hate them gives these Commies nightmares, because deep down – they realize that if the SHTF Day ever does arrive and a WROL situation ever takes hold – there will be severe retributions coming their way.

            So, like little school girls – they stomp their feet, and constantly bleat about how all these ‘haters’ need to be locked up somewhere. I find it both curious and interesting that it never seems to occur to these liberals that it might be a good idea to change their behavior, since it is that behavior that generates the hatred for them that they claim to fear so much.

            Here is an exceptionally good podcast by the late Dr. William Pierce that I was listening to yesterday, and it’s title is: Understanding Our Enemies. I highly recommend this podcast:


            Pierce had an amazing knack for analyzing the left and their destructive ideologies, and his audio recordings are just as pertinent today as they were 18 or 20 years ago.

            • Tucker: Pretty good observations about the hateful two way street between stereotypical lefties and righties.

        • My take on it: Pistol rounds produce no shock effects like rifle rounds, so assuming that the placement is good and the bullet penetrates all the way through the body, the only thing that matters in a single shot is the diameter of the hole that’s made. OTOH, a smaller round will allow you to make MORE holes (like Selco said, BULLETS not A BULLET).

          • #1 buck makes a lot of .30 cal holes if you are real close. further out, the pattern gets too ragged to be reliable.

            Don’t care much for buckshot for that reason. Slugs are another matter – goodly holes out to 100 yards – a reliable grizzly stopper.

            I probably will get down votes for the grizzly comment but you have to deal with them when they are in your back yard.

            • getting a +1 from me, griz bears are smart… actually watched a youtube video of a hunter and guide shooting at a bear at long range. damned bear hit the ground when the cold shot missed, and crawled out of the kill zone prone on its stomach behind some boulders. hunters had to turn in because weather was moving in.

            • New Ord — I’ve said this before, but….

              dump the shot out from a hi-base shell,

              get double O sized fishing splitshot and

              clamp on to a foot long piece of heavy

              monofilament line, reload it in the shell

              and recrimp.

              Works exactly like cannon grapeshot.

              • Excuse me — I meant cannon chainshot.

                • @Defiant; While I would agree with the “concept” you espouse, I would have to disagree with your described procedure and its’ effects. What you have described will not work. I would suggest you actually try it sometime. Mono-filament will melt in the barrel and then you will have the reduced accuracy of deformed split shot going all over the place as opposed to hardened, chilled, shot being less deformed and more accurate. Grapeshot was actually correct term, although chain shot was also used for the same effect described, they are synonyms. If you want to do what you described, although I have never done it, you would need to do it with metal cable. This was describe years ago for trench warfare and some ammo was actually made, though I thing it was made “locally” by the people that used it. This has been described in various military writings from the Civil War through the Great War. While this will “hold” a tighter group, it won’t necessarily be as accurate as a load of 00buck (i.e. it won’t go where you aim exactly). 9 pellet 00buck (12 ga) should hold a 30″ pattern at 25-30 yds and the statistical probability of a hit is about 3-4 pellets of .33 caliber. Not a .338 Lapua, but I don’t want to be shot with it. Also, follow up shots. You shoot till the threat stops. Basic shooting dogma. 2-3 shots at less than 30 yds should STOP the threat with no problems. YMMV in reality though. Keep shooting till it stops….

                  • TripodXL — thanks for your thoughts.

                    I have done this successfully and still
                    use this method since I was a kid.

                    Monofilament (40# test) does not melt
                    in the barrel just as plastic shotcups
                    or felt wadding does not.

                    All buckshot suffers barrel deformity
                    whether chilled or not, it is of little

                    Your own theory may be subject to change
                    if you should give it a try. Good luck to
                    you my friend, and keep an open mind.

            • If there weren’t so many trade-offs for small arms weapons, there wouldn’t be so many different ones used.

              Arguing who’s got the best weapon’s like arguing who has the best wife. Many times it’s obvious who has the worst one, but seldom obvious who has the best. Mainly because it’s all about situation, situation, situation.

          • When a bullet hits a human there are a couple of factors that cause the “kill”. I don’t really like that term, so I quoted it.
            We are taught to shoot to stop. We are also taught to press the trigger twice and asses the situation. So if I have my side arm, then that would be two bullets. If I have my full auto MP5 then that would be four, and my M4 with three round burst six. Shooting to stop, is using deadly force to stop someone from doing something, like trying to kill you or someone else. That’s one of the reason that idiot who killed those kids that broke into his was found guilty. He executed them.
            Anyhow. Back to the factors. There is temporary cavitation, or the shock wave the bullet creates as it enters soft tissue, and permanent cavitation. Which is the hole the bullet makes that is permanent tissue damage. Permanent cavitation goes along way toward the stopping of someone. The larger the better. Diameter of hole, but PENETRATION is huge here too. The temporary cavitation usually will not damage internal organs except the liver. The shock of the round striking won’t usually kill you either, except if hits you in the heart at the right exact moment, that’s why soft body armor is effective. Hurts like hell, but no cavitation. So if we can get a big hole deep or completely through the body, that is most effective. So .50 Desert Eagle may deliver these criteria better than a .22 and in a gunfight the Desert Eagle would be preferred over .22, shot placement as mentioned is also critical.
            Choose the weapon you can pull the trigger more than once accurately in a fight, that is better than one shot of .50 Desert Eagle and trying to come back down on target, quickly.
            How my 2 cents helps.

            • That’s why I like 92FS. I know it, I shoot it all the time and I’m comfortable with it. If that isn’t in reach, I’m grabbing the 12ga.

              I know there’s a few that aren’t fans of the 9, but if you shoot well with it, its just as effective as anything else.

              Also to selco’s point, I’ve been shot at with a .38 snub nose, and I’m here to tell it about it. Don’t remember how many shots were fire, of course I was running away. but I don’t think a single shot even came close. Had he used something bigger or better, I might not be posting this.

          • Remember Pistols only buy you time to get to your Rifle, then the real firepower begins. There will be many levels of Shootout SHTF. Today, you carry concealed for personal protection and a few rifles by the bed for night time security. and at Nighttime you better had a great flashlight with hundreds of lumens of Light to see what you are shooting at. No sense shooting the dog scratching at the door. Security comes in layers, and spread your guns around the premises, so if you need one its an easy grab. I had a bad ass pit bull mix scale my 6 ft wood fence, luckily he ran to the other side of the yard and scaled the other side of the fence. Again why you always need to be packing. Now later on when there is a collapse you need to stop the threat far before they reach your property, and when longer range comes into play. During a collapse, there will be many zombies out there out of beer, drugs and food, and that is a bad combo you need to watch for. Plenty of scam artist out there asking for the time or directions. And all they are doing is distracting you from your passage. Buy a good set of binoculars and look well ahead from point to point avoiding any road blocks or traffic jams. All these tools increase your success for survival. Be ready for the fight. When second count, cops are minutes and hours away.

        • All of our team has taken Selco’s course. Good stuff. Head shots are the best … turn off the computer. They are also the hardest to achieve. Center Mass is easier but you need more rounds. I have seen gun fight in Memphis where someone was hit several times and continued to shoot back. Make sure the opponent is down for good. As for killing another human…. you and your family or them… PRAY, PLAN, PREP, FORM TEAMS.

          • If the person your shooting at has on body armour at a level 3 or 4, center mass isn’t going to cut it. Head shots are difficult enough. My theory would be to shoot at the belt buckle, the stomach is mostly unprotected, granted the person may get their nuts blown off but that will disable him. Also I would aim for the knees and arms. I really like a 12 ga. with double o buckshot as well as slugs.

            • Actually confederate, it would depend on the individual, the stomach is actually in the upper peft quadrant of your body..(draw four squares on your stomach with your belly button as the center point. So looking at them,,” its upper right of the belly button, if theyre the type to have he buckle sagging along with the pants, you’d be aiming at the small intestines, colon, or even genetalia. Me? I’m partial to tension pneumothorax, and a flailing/sucking chest wounds, the feeling of slowly dying and gasping for air at the same process stresses one unimaginably…it onlb prolongs the actualization of death and dying even more, thus is more agonizing…only thing i know of thats worst is scaphism

              • Your right it does depend upon the physical make up of the person being shot. My goal is to neutralize the person so he/she is no longer shooting at me but writhing in pain which gives me more time to take out someone else. A gut wound, blowing off one’s genitals or other obnoxious woundings will get the attention of the others involved. Also it would take two or more other individuals to tend to the wounded thus eliminating them from the situation, at least for awhile.

                • In the age of body armor , head and genital shots are the way to go although a .45 round to the chest when wearing armor still is the equivalent of getting hit with a baseball bat. You might not die but you are going down with the wind knocked out of you. Too many think you are able to shake off a vest hit and just keep going….wrong!

            • With a pistol practice on playing cards at 25′ … head shots are then achievable….

              With long barrel…100’…

              My tc’s…

            • Yes when they are breaking through your front door, aim low right at their Nuts, and have your Pump fire ripping off the rounds. When they start falling on the ground they will fall right into your firing lane. And most likely head or neck shots will hit their spot as well, and bleed out. Later you can scrape them off your doorstep and off an into the ditch down the street as the Vultures need to eat too. lol

          • man on the inside, I live in Memphis. what incident are you referring to and are you anywhere in this area?

            • Moved out 6 yaers ago.. but lived there 18 years… saw lots of gun play… (Cooper young, south of Beal Streat, Orange mound, Overton park, Mall of memphis (which I watched them tear down due to no business becuase of the crime,) Airport area..) had a good freind killed there. It is one of many reasons why I left. Stay safe Braveheart… And stay ready.

              • Man on the inside, I’m just now catching your response. I don’t blame you for leaving. If I didn’t have such a good paying job here, I would’ve been gone by now also. Looking for my own place in middle TN now. I’m checking tax auctions for that; my only hope of getting something. If that doesn’t pan out, I still have the arrangement with my family in north GA.

        • Shoot ’em in the cock. 🙂

      2. Two Words:

        Center Mass.

        • Rat Tat
          I have seen people shot center mass. Most of them still had a lot of fight left. It is the best area, but to stop a fight head shot. It is the hardest shot to make, so I don’t recommend it.

          • Howdy, Sarge. head shots are hard to achieve. Been practicing at the range for exactly that kind of shot. going back to the range tomorrow for that very purpose. I will achieve it one way or another. yesterday, I had a discussion with some co-workers about the best kind of gun to have. one of them mentioned .22LR is ok for practice, but nor for self-defense. I said if it was the only thing you had it is better than nothing at all. I stockpile more .22LR than anything else because that is what I practice with. Although the prices have gone up, hands down it’s still cheaper to practice with than any other caliber made. I own 4 .22 weapons and love them all. tomorrow I’m taking my Ruger 10/22 for the first time in 4 years. I’ve already stripped it down to check it and added some extra oil to it. I put a new scope on it and it should shoot just as well as it did 4 years ago. It’s the stainless model and I bought it when it was only $150 new-in-the-box. [Think how long ago that’s been!] For those who belittle the .22LR, I recommend going to Wikipedia and look up the story of the assassination attempt on President Ronald Reagan back in 1981. Link to follow.

            • Direct link: VERY INTERESTING STORY. president Reagan and 3 other people were wounded by John Hinckley with one .22LR pistol known as a “Saturday Night Special”. That was the incident which got the Saturday Night specials banned.

              • John Hinckley’s family were friends with the Bush family for years before the assasination attempt. If Hinckley had been successful then Bush would have become president sooner. MSM didn’t cover that info at the time, but now it’s easy to find online.

                • Yes, thanks for reminding everyone of that extremely curious detail about the attempt on Reagan’s life.

                  The Bush Crime Family has been an oozing canker sore on the ass of America for the last 100 years, and it is a testament to how brain dead stupid the White American conservatives are that you can still find comments being posted on supposedly ‘conservative’ (kwanservative, kosher conservative) news web sites where these nose picking idiots are praising the most evil and treasonous family in American history.

                  These Bushes are a cancer tumor in the gut of this nation and in a sane world, populated by citizens with IQ levels above single digits – every one of these people would have been kicked out of America and barred from ever returning – decades ago.

                  • Tucker, did you know the Bush family gave financial aid to Hitler and was still doing business with the Nazis even after Pearl Harbor? Even after the war, not a damned thing was done to Prescott Bush.

                  • That was Prescott Bush, GW’s Grandaddy, who was trading with Hitlers Crew during the war. There was an indictment AND CONVICTION against Prescott Bush for trading with the enemy, even after warned. Just goes to show you who keeps pulling the strings of this country into criminality, generation after generation. History of these facts cannot be disputed.

            • You could also look-up The Israelis army’s use of the .22 Lr round as a less lethal round and aiming for the legs. Look it up. Very interesting info. Seems it proved to be more lethal than they had expected. The program or use of the .22 Lr round was discontinued as far as a less lethal option goes.


              ” The .22 LR has also seen limited usage by police and military snipers. Its main advantage in this role is its low noise, but it is usually limited to urban operations because of its short range.[14]

              The Israeli military used a suppressed .22 LR rifle in the 1990s for riot control and to “eliminate disturbing dogs prior to operations”, though it is now used less often as it has been shown to be more lethal than previously suspected.[14] Some other examples include the use of suppressed High Standard HDM pistols by the American OSS, which was the predecessor organization of the CIA.[11] Francis Gary Powers was issued a suppressed High Standard for the flight in which he was shot down. Suppressed Ruger MK II pistols were used by the US Navy SEALs in the 1990s. ”

              The Grand Awaking Is Happening. It Can Not Be Stopped.
              It Will Not Be Stopped.

              • Guest, very interesting info on usage of .22LR by the Israelis, but the other info I already had. .22LR was also used by Specops and CIA operatives in Vietnam for assassination.

            • One thing people also forget when they go to a gun range, is that many of them don’t let you draw fire. Safety hazard for others around. Drawing from CCW holster and firing is necessary training. If you have an open carry holster, like LEO, that training is needed too. Just standing there shooting will hone your sight picture and trigger pull skills, but then you need to graduate to drawing and firing, then moving and firing.
              Also if you think Body Armour is going to be used, then two to the body center mass and one to the head. Not between the eyes, but from the tip of the nose to the bridge of the nose. The eyes are fair game too. This is softer tissue than between the eyes at the top of the nose. Bullets can be deflected by the skull. Also if you do hit the tip of the nose and it penetrates all of the way into the brain cutting the brain stem from the top of the spine, that literally is an Off switch.

      3. One day I was sitting in Blue Diamond listening to two snipers talking. One said a .22 isnt a sniper rifle. The other said if you got shot in the head with one I bet you would change your mind!.

      4. Shot placement…

        • Oops…should have read all the posts… Sgt is right…practice on the move also…

        • In regards to the ‘Sterling’ incident, I found this one…


          The Southeastern meeting for P040WHNSTNW (people over 40 who have not said the ‘N’ word) will be held in the phone booth at the corner of Peachtree St. and Ponce De Leon Ave in Atlanta on Monday, July 8.

          We apologize for the size of the accommodations but a smaller venue could not be secured.

          • I have a co-worker whose 23 year old son whom lives in Las Vegas. He was on the bus the other day, and 3 black guys were eyeing him up and down, he started to get worried, when they got up and walked past him to exit the bus. The biggest said to him “you sure are cute, Vanilla Bean”.

            I guess all us krackers have a new nickname…

            I know I would have walked around the rest of the day with my buns clenched shut, he must have thought he was about to get ‘jumped’ but not that way….

          • eppe: In the ATL?
            I don’t think there’s a “phone booth” left in the city. Maybe they can use the ticket booth at the Fox.

      5. First off. The bigger the gun isn’t always the better. You want a load or caliber if you call it, that will not over-penetrate the body, but cause serious damage inside.

        Hydrodynamic shockwave when the bullet hits play an important part in stopping vital organs from working properly. Also as soon as the bullet makes it’s way, you want to create enough damage inside as so to stop your target instantly.

        As far as where to shoot. I was trained to shoot at the T spot on a person. Thus the persons face. You take the 2 eyes and the nose and imagine a T area. This is where you want to shoot someone as to enter the brain quickly, and to stop all life.

        Shooting a person in the heart or chest, is not always the best bet. I have seen people shot in the heart, and live for 15 seconds before dying. Enough time to get a round or 2 off to kill you with.

        Shot placement is always the key, along with proper caliber, and design of bullet or slug. Also being comfortable with the weapon you have is another key to good defense.

        Finally, all I can tell you is, train, train, train,….

        Practice does make perfect.

        • Perfect practice makes perfect. Practicing all the wrong stuff will never equal perfect.

        • The shock wave (temporary cavity) causes significant damage ONLY in SOLID organs (e.g., brain, liver, bone).

          The shock wave does NO significant damage in SOFT tissues. That is why ultrasound treatment of kidney stones does NOT kill you.

          Bottom line: the size and location of the “hole” (permanent cavity) is what matters most.

          TRAIN so you can depend on YOUR shot placement with the largest round YOU can shoot well without useless over-penetration. (There are instances in which “over”-penetration is useful.)

      6. Shooting someone is the worst day of your life. Killing someone is 10 worse.

        Most people that I know do not want to do either.
        But to save my kids grand kids wife or myself I have the mind set to do so. Remember I have been a cop for almost 30 years. Most people on this site are just survivalist and preppers.

        This mind set is had to get and to keep. Will I puke when I shoot or kill someone more than likely. I have it in the back of my mind “Thou shall not kill”! Miss-translated! Thou shall not murder.

        I know people will talk about what they will use when the time comes. It doesn’t matter you just have to hit vitals. I have seen people killed with 22 all the way up to 44 Mags. It is not pretty.

        If you want to be able to protect yourself and your family you need to PRATCE. Not just standing shooting at paper, You need to move, lay down, lay on your side, behind cover, lay on your back. this is just a few thing I do.

        Some might wonder what I carry. 45ACP. Why because they don’t make a 46. The 45ACP has been around for over a hundred years with a good track record.


        • Sgt is the voice of wisdom.
          Keep moving!

        • Agreed. Plus, why shoot someone 3-7 times with a 9mm when you can just shoot them ONCE with a 230 gr .45 ACP BJHP HST round? Made to penetrate denim, ballistic nylon, glass and host of other ‘barriers’ before opening up over 1 inch and traveling up to 13-14 inches in ballistic gel. Click, BOOM! thud. in that order.

          As far as hitting someone between the eyes, that’s a great target to practice for. Haven’t seen a face shield yet that stops the aforementioned round, nor anyone with a ‘bullet proof’ face. Like the good Sgt says AIM SMALL = MISS SMALL. If you are accustomed to hitting a very small area quickly, hitting a larger target will be easier.

          Most people with level 4+ and up body armor will need that headshot to drop em, so you might as well practice in advance.

          • RE: Plus, why shoot someone 3-7 times with a 9mm when you can just shoot them ONCE with a 230 gr .45 ACP BJHP HST round?

            Yeah, I was reading a few years ago about a bank robbery shoot-out in FL. 3 FBI agents were killed, and all of the robbers when SWAT team back-up arrived. A forensic examination of the carnage revealed that the robber gunmen had been hit 1 and 2 times with the 9MM’s which the agents were carrying as a sop to NATO and the Italians with their Barretta’s. Due to the non-lethality of the 9mm bullet the robbers were able to survive the hits and proceeded to shoot the agents to death. And the moral of the story…so as Socrates says…make your pistol a .45 ACP, load it with 230 grain ammo, and you will be way ahead of the pack with the “King of Handguns.”

            • @hd…; First there are cases of people being shot multiple times with .45ACP. In one case a perp was shot 12 times…and lived. As far as the felony car stop of Platt and Matix in Miami, and the resulting “ass-whoopin” the FBI got, ONLY 2 of the 8 agents were carrying 9mms and they were S&W M459s. Didn’t have a thing to do with NATO, Italians or Beretta, or sop, whatever that is. They were also carrying 9mm FMJ (stands for full metal jacket), a very effective anti-personnel round (sarcasm). Only 2 of the agents had vests (this happened in 1986) and NONE were rated over DoJ level II, (weren’t rated for rifles). Everyone injured or killed was as a result of the .223 rounds fired from Platt’s Mini-14. The FBI’s only long guns were 2 Ithaca M37s (900 years old). Platt and Matix had sustained fatal injuries in the first few minutes of the fire fight, but Platt managed to get out and for 5 minutes continue to shoot the agents, killing 3 and wounding 3 others with 2 having to medically retire. Moral of the story. Carry BETTER ammo, sometimes bigger is better, sometimes not. Next, bring a rifle to a “rifle fight”…just sayin. Wear appropriate body armor. Also there was no SWAT that showed up, it was the other 6 FBI agents (suits) that were in the hunt for Matix and Platt to begin with. I am a dyed in the wool 1911A1 (a model of .45 caliber semi automatic handgun) freak. I carry one regularly. I teach concealed handgun classes and used my 78 pound son to demo the course of fire for students with a .45 auto and 230 gr hardball ammo. He would shoot a ragged one-hole group in the silhouette and the crowd would go wild. If you can’t shoot a .45, IMHO you haven’t been taught to shoot properly, tough I’m sure some would disagree and they have the right to be wrong. In actuality it was one of the 9mm rounds from Dove or probably Grogan that killed Platt as opposed to the .38/357 revolvers or the 12 ga. shotguns from the other 6 (SIX) agents. So if it weren’t for the 9mm, Platt would not have been killed. And if a frog had wings, he wouldn’t bump his ass when he hopped. The FBI was unprepared, had shitty ammo, no vests and did not expect the level of resistance they ran into. This is a poor example of why to carry a .45 auto, as there were so many other things that went wrong there. Tell you what, let me shoot you with a 9mm JHP (that means jacketed hollow point) and I will then let you shoot me with a .45 ACP 230 gr. FMJ. Let’s see how that works out. I await your response. I carry a Kahr P9 most of the time with BH JHPs for the simple reason that it is hard to carry a .45 all the time, regardless of who makes it. And, oh yeah, I am a master pistol shooter in NRA 3 gun, so I do know how to shoot a .45. I will challenge anyone to a 9mm vs .45 duel on IPSC targets and will beat you. Be well.

        • AMEN, Sarge. I feel the same way.

        • Shooting in the standing, prone, prone unsupported, kneeling and sitting position is what you do on a range against well armed pieces of paper or cardboard cut outs of Ivan – the NATO standard Russian target of choice. You’re not under pressure! Unless your range NCO is an ex Vietnam vet that is, with a habit of throwing clods of dirt at shooters heads while they’re shooting or shooting guys in the leg with a pellet rifle for poor body position … You’re just not going to learn aggressive shooting. Ah, the memories are flooding back now ……

          Aggression. Quick reactive shooting. Fire and Movement. Reaction to return fire. Battle field awareness – where’s every one in my team. Taking up a fire position. Am I in an effective supportive position. Do I have cover and concealment. Can I identify my target. To me these are all part and parcel to shooting. Laying on the ground shooting at paper targets hour after hour should teach you one thing ….. Where your zero is. So, once you’ve zeroed your rifle in …. It’s time you got moving.

          Get your buddies and build “jungle lanes” and “reactive galleries”. Practice shooting on the move, reactive shooting and in body positions that seem impossible to shoot from. Start small and slow. If you’re doing it like in the movies, you’re probably doing it wrong.

          The best reactive shooting gallery I’ve shot on was with an AK and Glock 19. The course ran for around 600 yards from start to finish and included wire entanglements, a couple of deep ditches and an almost un-scalable cliff and a range member who provided the odd crack and thump for realistic effect (not quite the same as a real fire fight, but we were having fun)

          Point is, your not going to learn jack shit about shooting, laying on the ground, checking your breathing and calculating your trigger finger pressure. You’ve simply got to learn aggression and get moving.

        • Shooting someone is the worst day of your life. Killing someone is 10 worse.

          Note: to the dad that killed the bastard climbing IN the daughter’s bedroom window, there is no worser. 🙂

          • Jay Jay
            You know that I would do anything to protect my family. Shooting some SOB crawling through a window in my daughter room would be one of them.
            I would feel good protecting my kid, but I would feel bad about killing some one.

        • but they DO make a .50, sarge!

          • BUTTCRACK
            Yes they do but they are just to hard to handle. I would hunt with one any day. But carry on duty NOT!!!

      7. It’s all relative, I watched a 105mm round from an AC130 impact 1m form a guy and he kept on running.
        The impact angle and target relation saved his ass.

        As for guns I prefer 45, 308 and 12GA it’s just too bad I lost them all in the ever present boating accident

        • y99
          Mine fell out of an airplane.

          • my ex wife took mine..

            • Lol airplanes and ex-wives, the two safest means of travel.

            • Mine were lost when my boat hit an iceberg in the desert,that’s my story and I am sticking to it.

          • …over the atlantic, of course. Damn sea lions get all the best stuff…

            • All my weapons are in safes. Not about to lose any of them.

              • Bummer. 2-3 of mine are always handy. Always have a handy spare.

                • I lost all mine when i moved em,,, they just disappeared! Poof! Gone!

                  • i never had none!

              • All my weapons are in a safe and I’ve thrown away the key. Then I had my wife hide the safe without telling me where. I think I’ve got all my bases covered.

          • Tragic smelting accident here.

        • The “bigger the better” IMO but also good to train with whatever might come to hand going forward.

          You never know…

          • P.S.

            I am impressed with the quality of discourse here so far.
            All this ordnance discussion kinda warms the cockles of my heart.

            I had other things to do today, but stumbled on this topic as it went up and couldn’t resist.

        • In all seriousness, if you’re a good shooter or just starting out and you want to learn more about combat AR look up Viking Tactics, Kyle Lamb is one of the best.

          Sorry for plugging but he’s a friend and no shit one of the best, check his instruction on Utube

      8. 10mm 180gr hollow point, fight over.

        • @ak…; Actually there is only about 10% (not insignificant but not incredibly significant either) difference in the 10mm 180gr XTP JHP vs the .45 ACP 185 gr Speer Gold Dot. Good shot placement would be more important than whose JHP penis is bigger (faster, stronger, cooler, etc.). A good Mozambique technique with appropriate shot placement will equalize almost any .30+ caliber center fire round. As has been said, practice, practice, practice.

        • +1

          I work in the woods, but drive through “meth country”. My glock 20c makes me feel a bit better. 15+1 175gr silvertips for me…

      9. I prefer a shotgun for short range use. It’s a lot easier to put multiple shots into an intruder than with a small pistol that’s hard to hold steady. Our shotguns also fire slugs for greater distance when necessary.

        We have youth-sized 30 gauge Mossberg Bantam shotguns. I’m 6’3″ but I prefer a smaller shotgun because it’s more maneuverable for indoor self-defense. And ammo is easy to find.

        • “30 gauge”? That’s right up there with “saved by faith alone” on the error scale.


          • He meant “two 15 gauge” shotguns. Give him a break.

      10. Barn:
        I agree with you. I have two 12Ga. loaded with 00 buck in my bedroom.
        As good as I’m (please believe me I’m not bragging ask Northern Reb.) I still have a shotgun. From a sound sleep to Combat expert in less that 3 sec is hard for anyone. That is why the 12Ga.

        • Sarge, nowadays I’m keeping “Bertha” loaded with 00 buck propped against the wall right next to my bed along with a .380 I bought for my birthday.

        • Got to use mine today. 7 1/2 shot. Wife’s orders. Couple of bunnies in the garden.

          • “wife’s orders”

            my wife’s STANDING orders are: You can never have too many guns or too much ammo. Therefore you are NEVER going to sell any of your guns, but you can buy whatever guns and ammo you want. Why it was just Friday that she reminded me of those orders after we got home from the range.

      11. ************


        Can’t we all just get along?


        • “An armed society is a polite society”

        • cain’t y’all jist GIT?

      12. Advise to all.
        If you are using a handgun for home defense. Please put a Laser on it. Please Put a Laser on it. (No I didn’t repeat myself.)

        Two reason #1 the most important it will light up your target. This way you can see it is a bad guy not your KID!!!
        #2 It puts you on target not on the wall between you and the KIDS bedroom.
        I think you can see where I’m going with this.


        • If you are slower on the trigger than the “bad guy”, that laser just became a “dead-on” target for someone who is likely much more awake than you in a home invasion scenario.

          A quick side-step and withering return fire from said “bad guy”, and all you will get is “thanks for providing me a solid aim point in a relatively unknown environment.”

          Laser sights are for SWAT THUGS and fully awake home owners, not half awake, middle of the night WANNABES. IMO!

          Inside motion sensor lights and a shotgun. There are a multitude of battery operated motion sensor lighting for vulnerable indoor placement that “illuminate the bad guy” without “illuminating you”!

        • That’s a good point. I hadn’t thought of it, because our kids were gone, but now with this economy, we have two of them back home. Both working, but income isn’t enough to cover rent and vehicles….will be getting lazer so we can see what we,re shooting at….

      13. Sgt,

        Good advice, already got one on the wife’s pistol in the bedside safe and mine is getting one soon.

        • You lost me at ‘bedside safe’. ;-(

          • Live in Canada and its required… Yeah I know, useless law but that’s the way it is… Up to 5 Years in Jail if its unsecured or loaded in storage…

      14. Some gangs have military level body armor. Some of it shipped from overseas from military friends .
        Some have purchased it here. This I know because they have told me when they compare mine to those they’re friends have. Even told me about the plates. It is always safe to do a least a double tap, in my opinion. Not that I want to take a life, but an extreme upper body hit would be the safest. Can’t tell in the dark or under some clothing if a person is wearing armor. Doesn’t really matter a 2:00am in the morning or any other time.

        Yes, most definitely, train.

        Train as you fight.

        Fight as you train.

        Close to implosion.

        Just my opinion.

      15. This guy has not been in SHIT. Those who have been in and SEEN a lot keep their mouths shut about it.
        He’s a fucking poser.

        • Iraqastan vet ,
          What is your service and mos?
          Just wait a few years when all those experiences and the shit you have been through percolate to the surface in the quiet times of the night . The you will want to talk about it .
          No,offense eveyone handles this s**t differently.

          Semper Fi 8541
          2 Force Recon USMC (2FORCON)
          USMC 1977-1993

          • Sorrybabout the bad typing
            GD smartphone.

            Semper Fi 8541

          • 0311

        • ive heard the selco was flamed by people like you. ive followed his posts since the beginning.

          the man hides his face and identity for a reason.

          more over, his story has been corroborated by more than one credible source.

          I think you have an arrogance problem.

        • Iraqastanvet, at least go to Selco’s website and see what he has to offer before you pass judgment. what you say may hold true for military personnel, but Selco is a survivor of the Balkan Wars of the 90s. He survived the living hell of Sarajevo and has a lot of useful advice to give about societal collapse and that IS coming to this land a lot sooner than anyone thinks.

        • I also have doubts about this guy. Never a misspelled word, but written to sound foreign.

          Sum Ting Wong


          • Phantom- That’s why he hides his face.

            He is a phony out for profit.

        • mighty testy for someone who’s never read anything he has said/written on his site, aren’t we? before shooting off yer mouth and getting flamed here, you should spend a little time reading. AFTER reading a few pages, come back and tell us what you think THEN. selco’s insight is PRICELESS to ME…maybe even MORE expensive!

      16. Noticed there is no comments about .357 magnum ? My favorite.

        • 357 is mine also. I’m too old to handle my beloved Mossberg 590A1 anymore, so instead I rely upon a Marlin 1894c in .357 mag and a back up six gun.

          Sure it’s not cutting edge, but I’m hope’n the G-men let me keep it until they bury me someday.

          • .357 also
            good balance between stopping power and controlability .
            Superb in a smith and Wesson platform .
            M27 is tack driver in .38 and .357 this is an ideal SHTF weapon where high capacity is not needed.
            Semper Fi 8541

            • E. S. and N,B,
              You are right the 125 Gr. Hp. 357 mag has stopped more gun fights with cops than any other round.

              There is only one thing wrong with a 357 mag. ammo in weapon. If I had to carry a revolver on duty I would carry a auto back up.

              Today when we have shoot outs it seems that we have more than one bad guy. In a WSHTF you can bet that there will be more that one bad guy and that is when a double stack 9mm or 40 or a large cal. like 45 comes into play.

              Some people just shoot revolvers better than auto’s so use what you are good with.

              Please remember that the handgun is your last chance weapon. Your rifle or shotgun would be you main battle weapon, depending on range. (medium range) Long range, rifle. Now that is another can of worms.
              AIM SMALL MISS SMALL

          • I am a revolver and pump shotgun fan.

        • In the “brave new world” of semi-autos, the “wheel gun” is a dinosaur.

          Revolvers DON’T JAM, FAIL TO FEED, or FAIL TO EJECT. There is no more reliable/safe carry firearm. Especially in questionable cleaning, maintenance, and weather conditions.

          The only “downside” is available rounds before reloading. So keep a 15-30 plus semi-auto as backup if so desired.

          Personally, I am very comfortable with the Taurus 410/45 Colt as a primary, close quarter defensive weapon. Since I first purchased mine, a multitude of impressive defensive rounds have emerged on the market. It has a tendency to shoot high with the 45 Colt round. A little range time…problem solved.

          • Revolvers are very good, but imo nothing beats a 12ga pump.

            • .338 at a mile does…

          • Nothing is perfect.
            Have you never had a case slip under the extractor?
            That can take a second or two to clear when it slips back down and gets caught in the cylinder under the extractor.

        • I like the .357 too. Just easier to handle for me. Wish there were a reasonable semi-auto pistol for the caliber. Seem to recall that Desert Eagle had one, but they are pricy.

          • John, Look into the 10mm. They fall into the 357 and close to .41 mag ballistic area. A Glock 20 or G20 S/F with slimmer grip works just fine. Underwood Ammo makes real 10mm at a decent price. They makes various loads for tasks at hand. That’s 15 rounds of Thor.

      17. Avert the Danger Before it Begins, i.e. take the path of least resistance, is a fair primary objective. “Gun fights” will be aggressively avoided, i.e. keep my small arsenal restfully alert, but silent and invisible.

        I’ve know the surreal sound of bullets whizzing over my head. It’s a sound I’d rather not ever hear again. I prefer to let others kill and be killed, while I quietly enjoy my vegetable garden.

        Location, location, location.

        • One can only hope!

        • Didn’t work out for most people in the Civil War in the USA. Most people, including the state of NC, asked to not be involved. Once your house is burned, or your state is told they will be attacked regardless, well, it became an uncivil war. Its like as each party raising the evil, the other must react at least as much. I guess that’s why warring societies always conquer peaceful ones.

      18. I learned all I needed to know about stopping power the day I watched a deer, shot through the heart, run for 150 yards before the brain quit working the animal’s system.

        • I watched the cops shoot a guy on ice 10 times with ..40sw glocks the only reason he stopped was because he stumbled on a curb and a round went through the top of his head and came out through his spine behind his neck.

      19. There are a lot of Vets that chime in on this blog (Thanks for your service!), and I’m not taking anything away from you but…every time Selco runs a column, every armchair warrior within shouting distance tosses in their two cents worth, some of it common sense, some of it absoulte bullshit, some of it googled. In my experience, to the man, those involved in a serious gun scrape don’t talk about it, unless ordered to, and as time goes by, won’t talk about it ever again. It becomes a personal demon, even if you haven’t experienced that (yet). Doesn’t matter right or wrong.

        I’m glad Selco has been able to capitalize on his experiences, and offers valuable advice to those that want it, but watch this blog — in the next few hours, everybody from William Westmoreland to Lewis ‘Chesty’ Puller will be on here, along with the Tour of Duty folks and the Grand Theft Walrus crew. If you could somehow take away television, would the comment section be sparse today? Know Thyself.

        • @BlackDog; I would agree mostly except I am the exception to the rule. Jeff Cooper questioned the concept of PTSD (and I’m not belittling anyone with that issue) as being one of training and expectation. It used to be that a squad at graduation time, was given a chicken and had to kill it with some restrictions given as “everyone” had a broken arm….and you had to bite the head off the chicken and then use it to feed your squad, blah blah blah. That was TOO extreme for many politicos and it was abolished. It just wasn’t nice, you know. The experience of killing something in basic (even a chicken) has an effect on personnel. I heard people that enlisted post 9/11 saying they “didn’t realize they would have to kill anyone” when they joined the military….REALLY. THAT is a training issue. I wound up being drafted in 1972 and retired in 2010 and wound up in SEA doing shit I wasn’t supposed to be doing, in places I was never supposed to go, with weapons I was never supposed to use. You know what, I don’t do PTSD. I realized that it was me or them….period. Then I did what had to be done to come home…period. It involved some others not going home. I don’t talk about it much, but I don’t shrink from the fact that “people die in war” (and special ops) and it doesn’t bother me. It is just a fact. Maybe I’m doomed to hell, maybe not. I do care, I just don’t let it bother me…oh, well. I have done contract work for DoD as well as a 38 year career in the military with 11 AD and the rest as a combat engineer in the reserves…did I mention DoD contract work….yeah. OGA! Not talking about it, but it is reality. I adhere to the Cooper rule that TRAINING alleviates most PTSD issues in advance, through training. Send someone into harms way without proper expectations and yeah, they will have psych issues…. PC at its’ worst… I’ve know Korean vets that won’t say a word and others that won’t quit talking. It varies. Did some work over in the Balkans. Brutal…..all I can say. If he says he was there, then if he wasn’t, it will show. I personally don’t know him from Adam. Be well.

        • Agree. And you were right. On every Internet forum whenever someone mentions “stopping power” vs “shot placement”, the keyboard commandos come out of the woodwork. Not to take away from the genuinely informative posts, but you have to wade through a ton of repetitive, contradictory stuff to get to it. Notice how Selco generally stays away from calibers and specific guns but posts do not. Take it for what it’s worth.

          • One thing I’m more curious about is position. He mentions blinds versus walls; but, is it more important to shelter first or fire first. For instance, he mentions the guy running diagonal; but, the post about the bear dropping and crawling seems to suggest hiding might be a better technique than firing right away. ????

      20. Slugs from a 12 gauge will stop anyone. A slug from a 10 gauge will annihilate anyone without some serious armor protecting them. Some slugs you can get that will travel 2000 feet per second, most are in the 1400-1900 feet per second range.

        It really is about velocity with the smaller calibers. I know I have said this before, but there is no real size difference between a .22 and a .223. The real difference is the .223 is going more than twice or three times as fast and offer much, much more punch. This is why the Stinger .22 rounds are better than the common .22 LR, they are going about 400 feet per second faster. The more kinetic energy the faster something is travelling, and the more stopping power.

        I was thinking about this the other day. Imagine the pure lethal force if you could get say a .38 caliber slug up into the speed range of 20,000 feet per second. It would be like getting hit with a cannonball going at the same standard speed of a .38. This is why these small asteroids can destroy massive amounts of land in comparison to their size, they are going 55,000+ feet per second.

        This is something to consider with ammunition, the feet per second that most ammo boxes show for good stopping power.

        • Bi,
          Precisely it’s not the size or weight of the projectile that causes the damage it’s the energy transfer between the two . Higher velocity and large cross sectional projectile area = greater stopping power , like 45 acp compared to 45-70.

          Semper Fi 8541

        • According to the FBI, speed has little to do with a bullet’s effects. Too much speed will cause a HP to open up too soon or break up and not go deep enough to damage vital tissue.

          Having been in the O.R. with multiple GSW from rifles, pistols, and buckshot, I can tell you that each one is different, depending on where it hit, how healthy the victim is, and how deep the bullet(s) go.

          The F.B.I. studies say that the two most important issues are “Shot Placement” and “Penetration”.

          • And ” self investigation”… After the shooting.

        • Be Informed, these days I just buy whatever .22 LR I can find. I have a few boxes of Stinger put back, though. I usually pay about 2X what it used to cost – when I can find it.

          • I finally gave up and sold all my 22 rifles, ammo is so rare where i live and don’t have the time to rush down to the gun shop to fight over 2 boxes of ammo. We don’t have small game anyway and by the time we get to needing guns the 22 wont be the one i grab for anyway,
            Am going to pick up a 5.7 rifle, found one that doesn’t use the weird overhead mag and uses a lot of standard AR parts. Will be comparable to a 22 for plinking

        • Speaking of 12 gauge (and other calibers) BI, here is a site, and I’m sure there are a number of different sites like this, that supply “Specialty” ammo. I’ve often thought a 12 ga. is the perfect launching platform for the delivery of all “kinds” of “specialty projectiles”, into the stratosphere of ones personal neighborhood. Kind’a like taking a “Roman Candle”, the really Big Boys, seen and heard, at a very big Independence Day Event.

          I always wondered what those “fireworks” might be like if they were aimed horizontally, rather than vertically. I would think people, intruders, might scatter fast.

          • Military and marine flare guns. 12ga, and 26.5mm—- smokes, aerial flares and star bursts.

            • I like the idea of horizontal moving aerial flares, if possible.
              Yes, now I’m wondering, if there is any experience with various “creative homemade” forms of ammo. It would seem like the sky is the limit, as long as it was “ahem” “legal”.

              Now these are cool. 12 gauge armor piercing incendiary…

        • @ BI

          Some old wive’s tales never die.

          Velocity has a role, but terminal ballistics are NOT “really about velocity.”

          It IS about the size and location of the hole (permanent wound cavity). To the extent that velocity affects the size and location of the hole, velocity is important. Velocity fanaticism is right up there with “watermelon wound ballistics.”

          We’ve known that since Dr. Marty Fackler’s seminal work in the 1970’s.

          • Accurate post indeed, John!

            ..sadly, it appears you’ve gained some “negative camp-followers”. You deserve better.

            Thumbs up to ya.

        • Think Sectional Density. It is all about penetration. .150 min for deer, .250 for Elk, and .300 for body armor. Foot pounds of energy is a combination of speed and weight. If you don’t have SD it could get stopped by a T-Shirt. If you can shoot freight trains nothing maters.

          • Worked for a rail company. Guy had been killed by mirror of train backing up at 5mph.

        • @BI; Don’t know where you get the ballistic info, the highest speed I could find on 10 ga, was 1450 fps. Not to mention, that you can’t find 10 ga. ammo anywhere. There is not a single round at the local Wally-world, Academy, Cabela’s and local sporting goods outlets where I live. Yeah, in theory they exist, but not in reality. As to the .22 vs .223 (as opposed to 5.56x45mm) while there is not much diff in caliber (.222 vs .224), there is a HUGE diff in ME, 40 GR lead at 1250 fps vs 55-77 gr, at 3200 fps and FMJ. As far as Stingers at 29 grns, at 1450 fps vs 40 grns lead RN at 1240 fps…not a big diff, relative to the other. Not sure where the asteroids come in though. Be well.

      21. Practicality is important too. I like and stick to the common calibers for SHTF purposes. 9mm and 45 ACP for pistols. The 22LR, 223/556×45 or 762×39, 308, 762×51 for rifles plus 30.06 or 50 BMG for special purposes (hunting, sniper, excess firepower applications). Because of ammo availability reasons and common guns like the AR15, military M4 and M16, AK47 and other Soviet rifles like SKS, M14/M1A, 10/22 or the tons of other .22 guns, 1911, military Beretta 92 or other 9mm pistols.

        • Hate to play devils asvocate in this regard, because I honestly do agree with you on items in regards to availability, but some of the Harder to find calibers, say for example 6.5 grendel, 5.45, 45LC, etc.. Were stacked deep on the shelves, while say 22lr, 9mm or 45, or over priced m183/m855…just my observation, this leads me to believe that maintaining one firearm as a safe queen of some kind might make things easier to aquire that ammo when all the shelves are empty of common ammo..unless of course even exotic calibers are taken by jackasses who dont know theyre picking up

      22. cant remember where I read the story, but an allied soldier in ww2, was shot in the head, took half his face off, he continued the battle right up to the end, until one of his m8’s pulled a mirror out and showed him his injury. died instantly.

        supposed to be a true story, but war gets fluffed up.

        read another story about 2 brothers stabbing an inmate in prison that was abusing them. between the two brothers the inmate was stabbed 170 times. he was then left to bleed out for a good half hour while the medic was on his way.

        lived. the parrot from Aladdin was right. youd be amazed what you can live through.

      23. I’ve got 3 Tokarev pistols; nice to see endorsement from a guy who’s lived it. I have modern pistols too but I’d rather have 8 Tokarevs than 2 Glocks.

      24. Everyone has an opinion, so mine goes like this….Fav stand by handgun for me is my Sig P226. Most accurate handgun in my hands. Hits on target and I keep 18 round mags on the ready. Other guns are also ready, but because of my confidence with the Sig, it is my goto gun.

      25. I have what I need regarding this topic….but feel a need to interject a thought or two…..I am of the opinion that most, if not all, will be forced to relocate, hopefully to a location where many will gather…I do not have years of foodstuffs because I cannot carry it all if I must leave, and I damn sure don’t want thieves to reap the benefits of my endeavors…I am sure that I will be in a place where I will be able to grow/hunt my food and I will rely on the knowledge within my brain to carry me forward….I do so say here that all that I know will be given to those around me that they will have the skills to carry on when I am gone….and that is the message of my group…all have skills ..the elders have the knowledge and skills, the young ones have the health and drive and together, with love of God, Country, Family, Humanity, we WILL survive

        • IF I have to leave, and know I’m not coming back, matches.
          I ain’t giving s**t to BofA. 🙂

      26. I keep a commander sized .45 by the bed with hollow points and a 12 gauge behind the door for close in needs. .308 for longer stuff(M1A). Strangly my .45 is more accurate than my .40 or 9mm so that’s what I’ll count on. Lots of practice for sure!

      27. I drive a 14 year old Ford truck. Parts are on the shelf at every auto store and are cheap. If the SHTF I’ll probably be able to get parts. They’ll probably be sitting by the road out of gas every mile or so.
        I have a buddy who drives a Tundra. He loves it and believes it is superior to the Ford in every respect. I agree it is a fine vehicle. But parts aren’t quite as plentiful. If he needs a engine rebuild kit it is special order and takes 2 weeks to arrive.
        Why am I talking about trucks? Because the same principle applies to firearms.

        • Gotta love those older Fords,,
          96 F350 4×4
          Passes anything but a gas station!

          • Yea, but you can pull a house off it’s foundation.

            • 1993 f250 7.3 diesel with a banks turbo. Cut the body for 35’s with no lift. Camper in the bed and it’ll cruise at 70 on the freeway. Nothing beats a hot shower and a movie after elk hunting in the rain all day. A few spare parts and it will drive after an EMP…

        • 78 F250. Just keeps going. I dread the day when vehicles are too complicated to fix with a socket set.

          • ’68 Bronco and ’77 F350/ Great vehicles for self maintenance.

      28. I’ve read a lot on this thread and agreed and disagreed on what people have said. I have my own thoughts on this that I learned playing in the sandbox. For urban encounters under 40 yards I would prefer a 12ga with 00 buck. For medium range a M-4. For long range my 338 lapua. Pistols just don’t work regularly in my personal experiences. Someone jacked on adrenaline can take a mag to the chest of 9mm before falling. 22 long rifle is deadly to a trained person. If I wanted to be stealthy, a suppressed 22 would rule an urban hideaway. I’ve accurately taken a 22 to 300 yards with surprising effects. Always fear a man with a blade. When properly trained, a knife is extremely dangerous in close quarters. I’ve demonstrated that I can gut you like a fish before you can bring a pistol up and align sights upon me. But the number 1 rule is– The mind is the best weapon, everything else is just a tool.

        • In a pistol training class with rubber knives and empty pistols, we learned that about ten yards (30 feet) is the danger zone for being charged with a knife. Very hard to draw and accurately present at that distance before being overrun.

          Moral of the story was to give verbal warning at 15 yards, while drawing.

      29. Glad to read him talk about COVER, it is the most important, which should come into play ALL THE TIME. I teach Cover, find it, know where GOOD cover is. Run a simple plan everywhere you are: Where is my cover, where is my exit, what is my exit, door/glass. If you start running scenarios everywhere you are or go, it can become a life saving decision and ingrained in your mind. I prefer cover, good cover if at all possible, then take shot. Wild firing can kill you. Remember the story of the guy at the mall, who took cover behind a column, the shooters gun jammed and he saw the other guy, unjammed his weapon then shot himself.
        Always be wary of your surrounding, make it a habit.

      30. I get tired of people crapping on 9mm parabellum. my bersa compact is loaded up with Corbon 115gr +p jhp’s.

        Smokin’fast, tackdrivers that will get the job done.

        Shot placement and proceeding hydrostatic shock…whether you’re shooting a whitetail at 150yds or a combatant at 7.

      31. For you moms and grandmoms.
        Earache–instant relief.
        I HAD to mow in between rains and the wind was really going.
        So, 15 minutes after finishing the yard work I knew what was coming. Didn’t treat it till 3 in the morning.(we call that faith or dumbass depending on what part of the south you’re from!!)
        Mash a garlic clove in a few drops of olive oil. Heat a few seconds in the microwave to warm it. Use an eye dropper. Use cotton to hold it in.
        Then, spread a few drops of water and peppermint oil BEHIND the ear canal.
        Works every time.

        Nice to have garlic, olive oil, and peppermint oil on hand at 3 in the morning–ya’ll know this never happens BEFORE bed time.

      32. Good post… I used to participant on a forum that possessed a survival and tactics section that also discussed weaponry. It certainly seemed like the majority of people posting would turn it into a caliber debate:

        First, if you can’t aim or react to the recoil, your stopping power or even the ability to defend yourself is reduced. Think of it as the less capable you are with it, your margin for error greatly decreases.
        I’d rather use a .22 or 9mm because I know; I can handle them and can hit my target.

        Second, the will to kill… I remember a debate over the Sandy Hook incident in contrast to the Chinese incident largely in the same setting. The principle difference and one used in that so-called game by gun control advocates uses the most obvious contrast. Firearms resulted in the deaths of over 20 people opposed to maime and injury of roughly the same amount with a knife instead.
        Even if you just use the narratives, this should be viewed as manipulatively deceptive.
        1). Knives are used predominantly for stabbing rather than slashing like you’re likely to see in such as Fallout 3 or some b/s like that.
        2). The wounds were predominantly cut off body parts like fingers and ears, and we’re supposed to believe these were defensive wounds? I guess we’re supposed to believe that the victims placed their hands in front of the thrust and despite being cut through largely was able to take injuries to center mass or an ear cut off using the head to block a thrust through the top of the shoulder…
        I am compelled to point out that the less obvious contrast that should have been obvious the distinctive difference was intent to kill opposed to intent to injure and maime or truly the shooter had a clue in the firearm’s use and the Chinese knife attacker had no clue.
        Considering, I’ve seen a similar debate with knives and swords; the weapon is only as valuable as your knowledge and ability to use them…
        Bare in mind, when the tensions in Egypt exploded through the ‘Arab Spring’ and most recently Ukraine, these are people who braved through sniper fire and other intidmidation techniques, and people still act like caliber, blade size, and etc is going to cause either an incredibly enraged and/or desperate person or people will back down simply over the bluff of a big bad looking and reputation/prestige weapon? As the author wrote, you’re trying to survive not show off, and you may be placed on death’s door as a result.

      33. Selco reminds me of me, I grew up in old Harlem. I saw a lot of people die from small caliber handguns. It’s not what you shoot, it’s how well you place it and how willing you are about it. I saw men laying on the ground with a large caliber handgun next to them, and what took them out was a knife. You have to be quick and deadly if you want to survive. I saw bad people with genius for conning others out of their goods. I saw how people can be when they are lumped together and treated like animals, living in a government project is not easy. I saw how the bigger society treated us and what they thought of us. Now they are calling them HUD or government housing, whole other subject, I know they are planning the same with the FEMA camps. Only thing different now is that they are going past the race barrier and taking everybody into these places. It’s manipulation of the people at it’s worse. I knew that the government was bad back then and I told everybody then, they thought I was crazy for saying it. I see this is where it is headed, what they did to us was testing being done to people that no one cared about, the poor, the uneducated, those that they had the upper hand on. It looks like they feel more confident to make their moves on the entire land of America. With all of the different laws that the POTUS has created. Sorry, but this is coming to all of us now, not later, but sooner. God be with us all!

      34. “Stopping Power” is really a misnomer, as what stops an animal, human or other, is how fast can you get their blood pressure, BP, to substantially drop to the point of passing out and/or near zero. Or, breaking the central nervous system, CNS, signals causing rapid loss of bodily function.

        As pointed out by an earlier post, medium to large game animals can sustain fatal impacts from high powered rifles and run for many yards before collapsing. If a 150 lb deer can take a heart hit from a 150 grain 30-06 bullet at 3,000 fps, then a human has the “ability” to take multiple hits from lesser handguns and remain fighting for a few more seconds to minutes. Drugs, fear, etc, etc can make these individuals feel no pain and fight like demons, until you hit the CNS of the right areas with the RIGHT bullets or drop the BP to cause collapse.

        For those who trash out the 9mm due to their or others experiences in war, fail to understand the difference in NATO FMJ 9mm loads vs civilian defense JHP loads and their related terminal differences. I have killed many animals with 9mm JHP’s, including deer, and the modern JHP’s cause substantial damage. Same goes for 40’s, 45’s, 357 mag, etc. Heck, my +P 9mm 124 JHP goes 1,250 fps, and this isn’t that much different then my 4 inch 357 mag 125 JHP’s @ 1,400 fps. Even though the velocity is only 150 fps different, I never hear anyone knocking the 4 inch 357 mag as a defense load!!!

        With all that said, I prefer to carry a 45 ACP +P in various modern JHP 200-230 grain loads, but there are many times I carry my 4 inch 9mm with 17 rds stacked with +P 124 gr JHP’s. I never feel under gunned for handgun self defense, but when I can, I will always bring a rifle or 12 ga. to a real fight!

        As for my 12 ga. standard load, years ago, I went to the “buffered” 16 pellet #1 Buck loads and the 27 pellet #4 Buck loads. These produced much improved patterns for me, and had far fewer “holes” in the longer range patterns. Thus, less chances for a bad guy to get lucky and slip through an opening in the pattern. If body armor is suspected, I shoot for the “triangle” that is the thighs and groin area, as this will end most fights and is easier to hit that a small, moving-darting head with heavy skull bones. Femoral and groin arteries bleed out fast!

        Choose a modern JHP defense bullet, GS, Gold Dot, XTP, T-Series, etc, and with the PROPER MINDSET, place the bullets where they can do the most blood loss or CNS damage, and the arguments over caliber, power, speed etc. become mute.

        Oh yes, the NUMBER ONE rule in a gun fight….HAVE A GUN and…DON’T GET SHOT!

        • Good info!

          Also remember shooting holes in stuff wastes your power.

          Im in the habit of working up pistol loads with very light bullets and very high speeds using very wide open hollow points.

          I have a 9mm load that will never exit and drops every last ftlb of energy into the target. The internal damage done would be of far greater value than you 45acp loads. Youd be better off with the lightest 45 jhp you could find and then push it like a madman.

          Its the difference between getting stuck with a needle and whacked with a shovel.

          I have 223 loads that will literally decapitate small game. There is a lit of re-engineering that can be done that isnt marketed.

          • Light loads have a purpose. In 10mm I use the 155 jhp at 1500 fps. It gets the 13 inch thru ballistic gel and denim test. But a hard hit as well at 775 ft lbs.

        • Stopped doing heart/lung shots (commonly called the boilermaker) a long time ago. Got tired of them running off the small property I hunt. I now employ a high shoulder shot which delivers massive hydrostatic shock directly to the spinal column. They pile up dead where they were standing.
          Bow hunting is the exact opposite. Very little kinetic energy or hydrostatic shock so you need to place the blades where they will create massive hemmoraging, which is the boilermaker area.

      35. Selco makes an excellent point with “It is about you”. It brought to mind the bible story about David and Goliath. David was a young shepherd boy that had the moxie to face the giant everyone feared. King Saul clothed David in all the kings personal armor so young David could better face the giant. But, David had the wisdom to tell Saul, “I cannot go with these, for I have not tested them.” And David took them off. Can you imagine turning down what the king offered? I personally believe that if David had kept the armor on for being too afraid to tell Saul what he felt, Goliath would have killed him dead. But, David had the good sense to know it was about him and what he knew how to use. And, David slew the giant using what he knew best.

        Excellent point Selco! Thanks!

        • ….which reminds me of what my daddy always told me:

          Shoot ’em in the ass
          They just run fast
          Shot ’em in the head
          They fall down dead

          Which is to say that power without accuracy is useless.

          Inaccuracy is like gambling. I don’t gamble with my life.

      36. Hey Sarge, The Chief of Itasca, Il. PD is instructing his guys to violate the rights of CC permit holders. He says if they come across a concealed carry permit holder that the citizen can’t leave without at least a traffic ticket. He wants them to take a breathalyzer and have their cars searched. Tow the cars if you can find a reason to arrest the citizen. The Chief is personally visiting every business and giving them the hand gun ban stickers to put in their windows. What do you think?

        • I always am on my best behavior when armed. You would have to plant something illegal regardless. Good luck finding something.

          This policy will backfire sooner or later. It won’t stop the application for permits or the carrying of a legal firearm I bet.

          • The local police can challenge the issuance of the card. Even the police in jurisdictions where you used to live can challenge. Illinois. What a cesspool.

        • “The Chief of Itasca, Il. PD is…”

          I think that town needs a new chief.

      37. I really like my Zastava M92, AK pistol. It will definitely cause bad hair days for SHTF foes.

      38. I find it interesting that people who would not play golf without first taking lessons, do not hesitate to buy a gun and then take no tactical training whatever. Training matters. A lot. Get it.

      39. Selco?
        Stop gënjyer!!!!!
        Off the mask as no you we do.
        Not what you say you are man.
        Gënjyer – lyeing to persons you do – take mask to off.
        Story you have for all things – all – why you gënjyer
        You must have done all in war and won for you only.
        Why persons believe I wont no why but we no who you are.
        Stop Selco!
        Make man.

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