The following article has been graciously contributed for your reading pleasure by Gaye Levy, the Survival Woman, of Backdoor Survival.
For most of us, our home is our refuge. There is even an old proverb: a man’s home is his castle. But what happens if there is an intruder? Or worse, an intruder whose intent is bodily harm toward you or your family members regardless of the reason? How would you defend yourself and, more specifically, would you shoot someone? Could you shoot someone?
I have struggled with the answer to these questions and more, because, if there were a collapse of society – a true SHTF situation – there is a strong likelihood that I would be placed in a position to defend myself, my homestead and my stuff. And therein lies the problem. I am not at all sure I could shoot someone. As a matter of fact, I am pretty sure I could not.
There, I said it. For in spite of the fact that we have shopped for a suitable weapon for someone of my size and gender, and in spite of the fact I have researched classes and shooting ranges where I could practice and become proficient, I personally do not think I could not do it.
And you know what? My informal poll of others – both men and women – has told me that about 50% of us – if we dig down deep – feel the same way. I could not shoot with the intent to harm.
Sure, I know that shooting someone is not the question. The question really is “Can you safely defend yourself and your family against a life threatening situation or attack?” And if the answer is “I don’t know” or even “No”, then you have a problem. I know I do.
From the way I see it, we have three basic issues:
- What are the circumstances where we should use extreme force to defend ourselves?
- Will I end up in jail or prison for exercising my right to defend myself and my family?
- How do I defend myself especially if I am uncomfortable around guns?
What are the circumstances where we should use extreme force to defend ourselves?
In my mind, you are justified in using force – lethal or otherwise – against another human being if, and only if, there is immediate and unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to an innocent person. So by my definition, someone stealing my stuff does not qualify. Neither would revenge for something that happened yesterday.
Breaking this down, this means that the threat would have to be now, not yesterday and not tomorrow. “I am going to come and get you tomorrow” would not qualify by my definition.
Will I end up in jail or prison for exercising my right to defend myself and my family?
Good question. The answer is maybe. There is something called the Castle Doctrine that dictates, on a state by state basis, the circumstances where you can legally defend yourself from bodily harm. Notice that I said bodily harm and not destruction or theft of property.
Castle doctrine derives from English Common Law, and broadly affirms that the lawful occupants of a dwelling has the right to use force, up to and including deadly force, to protect against attack. Depending on individual state law, Castle Doctrine generally applies only if you have a “reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm” to yourself or to others.
Like I said, Castle Doctrine varies from state to state and some states have something called “Stand Your Ground” instead. Still, as a generalization, protections offered include the following:
Reinforced right to use deadly force: You have the right to use deadly force if you have an immediate and reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm. In some cases, the “reasonable fear” is presumed if someone attempts to make a forcible and unlawful entry into your residence or, in some states, vehicle.
No duty to retreat: The laws generally reinforce your right to “stand your ground” when attacked, rather than having to attempt to flee, provided you reasonably believe force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily injury and provided you are lawfully in the place you occupy.
Immunity from criminal prosecution: In cases of justifiable use of deadly force, police or other law enforcement authorities may generally investigate but not arrest you unless they find probable cause that the force used was unlawful.
Immunity from civil action: In cases of justifiable use of deadly force, a plaintiff (e.g. the family of the perpetrator) is barred from civil action and may be required to pay attorney’s fees and court costs from bringing such action against you.
How do I defend myself especially if I am uncomfortable around guns?
Okay, here are the choices that I have come up with in no particular order:
- Chemical Sprays (pepper spray , bear spray, wasp killer)
- Martial arts
- Firearms (shotgun, rifle, pistol)
- Battering devices (batons, fireplace pokers, baseball bats)
- Stun Guns
- Knives
- Avoidance (hiding, running away)
I do want to note that most self defense instructors will say that avoiding, or running away or even hiding from the danger or confrontation is by far the best thing to do. Unfortunately, that may not always be a viable and safe option.
For me, having a combination of these self-defense mechanisms is best. This will allow both Survival Husband and myself to choose the very best option particular to the threat and our personal comfort lever (again “to shoot” or “not to shoot”).
Summary
Ask yourself if you are ready for the chaos created by SHTF, in whatever form it might take. Also think about putting together a “SHTF Self Defense and Intruder Safety Plan”.
Here are some tips to get started:
1. The first step is to talk to your spouse, partner and/or other family members about your individual feelings a toward guns, knives and other self defense weapons. This is not the time for BS. It is best to be honest with yourself now, before the need to defend yourself is called in to action.
2. Examine some what-if scenarios and think about what additional information you need in order to become comfortable with your plan and with a possible “shoot” or don’t shoot” decision.
3. Invest in the gear and the skills you know you will use and then learn how to use them. The gear and skills that you select for one family member may be different than those chosen for another family member. One may choose a firearm and the other may choose a combination of chemical sprays and martial arts.
4. Respect the skills and mindset of your family members or others in your household. There is no right and no wrong.
5. Educate yourself regarding the Castle Doctrine Laws in your state and use them as a guideline in formulating your plan. Keep in mind, however, that if there is a SHTF situation, there may no longer be a government so any existing laws or rules may not apply.
The Final Word
The more you think about these things in advance, the more confident you will become in your ability to make a good decision under stress when defending yourself and your loved ones is the only choice your have.
To learn more about the Castle Doctrine Laws specific to your state, visit this link: The Castle Doctrine.
Enjoy your next adventure through common sense and thoughtful preparation!
Gaye
Gaye Levy is the proprietor of the Backdoor Survival web site which provides lifestyle tools, tips, and thoughts to guide you through the back door of life in the 21stcentury.
Yes.
Yes
All I can say is…I feel sorry for anyone who breaks into my house while I am there!
Yeppers!!
why would I take the advice on self defense from someone who is not committed to defending his own life?
I like that answer! LOL!
To the author
If you are unwilling to kill you have a moral obligation to warn those in your household that you are essentially dead wieght in a crisis. Defending one’s family should never be a moral delemma. You think it is so very hard to kill?
Well it is not. I will say that I think regularly about the times I’ve killed people (in war) but there no lingering guilt. It’s a big thing true. But there are times when not doing it is a bigger thing.
Guilt comes when someone under your protection is injured or killed due to your unwillingness to act.
And please – spare us the pepper gas and martial arts. If your antagonist is that close you are his. The only weapon that makes a woman equal to a man in a fight is a gun. sorry about that – but there it is.
You need to think very carefully about what true morality is. And understand that evil exists in this world and it is your duty to confront – not pander to it.
I had a partner years ago on the police department who told me one night on patrol that he couldnt shoot, let alone kill someome if we went to a violent call. I asked what if the guy was trying to kill me? And he said no. We went right back to the station and he was a desk jockey until he finally quit. Just because you are trained to fight doesn’t mean you will when the moment comes. A lot of armchair quarterbacks freeze when the moment of fight or flight is at hand. I have watched rookies run back to the car and lock themselves inside, leaving the veterans to continue the fight shorthanded. Believe it or not, this was a good article for those who might even be thinking they are on the fence on the subject.
Good job Mac
I concur with theboatyard..as soon as I read that this woman hasn’t even fired her ‘firearm’ why would I continue to read? and the comment about ‘dead weight’ below is right on as well- most of the ‘post modern’ ‘educated’ masses are outright frightened to even be around one, so the perspective of not shooting someone, then writing an article on it is purely academic…go fire 5000 rounds thru that thing then talk to me…
I just got myself a compound hunting bow and a dozen steel-tipped hunting arrows—I prefer not to draw attention, and I need to prepare to feed myself—quietly.
Put a broadhead on those arrows!
Umm, have you ever drawn and fired a bow in the house? Unless you live in a home with very large rooms, you’re not going to be able to do too awful much with it indoors (which is, well, where most home invasions tend to occur).
That’s what a crossbow is for
If you opened a door to a house you didn’t live in, and saw a large bow with seemingly a bigger, pointy arrow pointing at your chest—would you pick the situation apart or leave? Yes I have shot an arrow indoors. It would go through a body and maybe even lodge in a closely standing tree…again, would you mathematically figure the velocity and trajectory of the arrow, or would you leave for easier pickings?
Would I kill? If I had no other choice, but I have no bones about scaring my way out of a situation if I can.
What are we talking about here? Nobody I have ever known goes around wanting to go out and shoot somebody for no reason, most of us will never know if we can drop a hammer on somebody till that time comes, like the very fraction of a second just before we have to make that decision. One may be ready and willing to “do” somebody at the drop of a hat, “but” it might be his or her time to get off of this rock. A greater power might just step in and make the ultimate decision for all those involved.
As for me, I know the rules about this; I am armed to the teeth for this, and sincerely hope and conduct my life as though I will never be faced with this decision.
We believe; Karma will be in play here. We believe the world and life is like a play one would go and watch. Only at this play you have the option of either being in the audience or on the stage, you can either watch or be watched. It’s your choice. A person practicing Metaphysics once told me; if you don’t like where you are at, change your mind. You are where you’re at because you wish to be there. Be careful what you convince yourself to do or setting yourself up for, you just might get your wish.
That being said, just don’t stand there projecting weakness to everyone that sees you. DON’T BE THE IDOIT hiding your family in the back closet frantically punching 911 hoping the cops or somebody will come and save your asses as some big monster is kicking in the front door. Be a little proactive, stand up and get a set and don’t ever bring a steak knife to a gun fight, you won’t like the results. Here’s a little secret. There is a sound that most every 9 year old knows and criminals FEAR! That’s a 12 gauge round being racked into a pump shotgun. You don’t have to be a super marksman to do this or highly proficient to wield one of these guns, nor do you have to break the bank to get one, about $300 bucks and $8 bucks for a box of shells. With the right shells you can knock a hole through a bad guy big enough that you can you could put your fist through.
I am confidant that when the SHTF those who are seeking this type of situation will most likely be accommodated, here again it’s your choice.
Perpetuating the myth that a shotgun can’t miss. (Sigh). At home-defense ranges, a shotgun has the same probability of missing as any single-projectile weapon. The spread of the shot charge at fifteen feet is virtually zero. Along with all the disadvantages of trying to maneuver a long gun in a confined space. OK if you want to wait in the bedroom for the bad guy to present himself at the door, but otherwise, make mine Smith and Wesson.
“The spread of the shot charge at fifteen feet is virtually zero.”
Unless its sawed off, ie missing the choke. Perfect home defense weapon – sawed off pump (keep it one inch longer than legal minimum). Then assure loved ones are at least 90 degrees away from down range 🙂
Coach,
As a general rule, shot (birdshot, buckshot, etc…) will spread at about 1 inch per yard after leaving the barrel of a shotgun. So, at 15 feet, you would be looking at about a 5 inch pattern. 5 inches vs .357th of an inch….there’s a difference. I agree that long guns can be more difficult to maneuver in confined spaces but that’s what a hacksaw is for.
Matt
who cares? The pattern of buckshot will hit something in the vicinity, and a few beebees of shot hitting you is no joke—I can attest to that fact, and the sound alone scares any sane person. Once you get a few beebees in you, will you wait around for a second shot? probably not.
Okay, I have some observations from an occupation where I have to use force regularly and for many years (not deadly force, thankfully).
First, if one is timid about wielding a gun, then get a short spear and a fighting knife with an eight inch blade. You need that much length to get to vitals and arteries. Culturally, some are more accepting of the idea of the blade, though I find it MORE personal and brutal. You lose little effectiveness with blade use compared to the gun, except for range (thats a big deal).
Second, sometimes people need to step back and try to understand their non-force friends and family. My wife packs heat and has the head to use her training well. But she hasn’t grown up like me. We now have a unique situation where she can WARM UP slowly. There is a large wild dog and coyote population where we live. They dump our trash, carry disease, run in dangerous packs, kill our chickens, and threaten our kids. Those animals are in need of extermination for all those reasons, additionally it is the humane thing to do. It benefits me little to put them down, but my wife is able to overcome gun shyness with each head shot.
Lastly, I once knew a man who grew up out of country in 3rd world Latin countries. Son of a missionary, American born, but a devote Passivist. While we argued USE OF FORCE one day, I posed this scenario…
You take your wife and children on a camp trip. You have taken your Mosin Nagant, not loaded, to shoot cans while camping. While sitting around the fire, three trucks pull up and surround you. Six men get out and from 30 yards away, they tell you that they are going to ravage your family and kill you all. They tell you that their FUN will begin in ten minutes. You cannot escape, or overpower them… DO YOU LOAD UP THE RIFLE AND START SHOOTING THEM? He said NO. Do you load and fire a warning shot? Again NO. Do you load the rifle at all? Again NO.
The point is, evaluate your reasoning, logic and contingencies. Make sure that you don’t confuse religious conviction with cowardice. That mans family was betrayed by that male who occupied the place of Father in that family… Our would have, if it were not merely hypothetical. Don’t make a plan to betray
Karma? Never heard of it. I kow I can use whatever i have to use. At 17 I woke up to screaming in my house. My daddy was at work, fireman-gone 24 hours shifts.
Grabbed 16 guage remongton 870 thumbed 4 #5 high brass shells into it on the dark ( than GOD I hasd been pheeasanr shooting so i didn’t have the plug in it. Saw 2 maggotsd climbing into my Mama’s bedroom window as one grabbed her ans slapped her and said ” Where’s the money bithc…..He didn’t get to the question mark cause i took his head apart with the first shot. I was glad he was much taller than my Mama and she had fallemn asleep with the lamp on. The next 2 were center punched Xyphoid oprecess as they tried frantically ti crab their way out the window. So sorry. You will NOT gte a chance to come back. Boom Boom. Called ) ( no 911 in early 70s) sat down to wait for Police and caled firestaion to tell daddy. Both showed up sideways, I was smoking a cigarette even though I didn’t smoke. When my hands stopped shaking. I told them what happened. Police said Yay! Daddy and mama said YAY!. Took next day off from school cause of lack of sleep. back the next day. Never missed a wink of sleep,. (except for being up in the midle of the night). Grandpas and Grandmas said YAY. Grand Jury said Yay! Never botheredme. Nobody drug them into our peaceful home at 200AM to ( thy thopught) robbb a random victim pf maybe cause we had just lived there 6 months they thought they knoew somebody there. sadly for them they had no pals there. I hope they knew jesus cause when it’s my loved ones safety I will not stop yto ask. To this day I don’t give a fuck. They killed them sleves. If someone came at my Mama or any other oved one today I would do the exact same except I would call 911 instead of “0”. So basically. I felt what most people should feel in a absolutely no other choice scenario. Recoil. PS all 3 were heroin juinikies from the other sie of town, Either very very stupid and high oe thinking they were somewhere that they were not. If they had rung the doorbel and asked they would have been treated courteously, A sadly and before somebody brings up the race thing 2 were white, and one high yelllow. Too bad for them. Diversity seminar got cancelled. 1 and 1/4 oz #5s through a imp cyl choke made approx ( not coutning the head, which exploded) about a 2.5-3 inch hole in each sternum. Even had my picture in the paper. Big deal. I did not let my loved ones, in the case my Mama, get hurt or victimized. Iknow what I am capble of.
I’m all in favor of a shotgun for home defense (and lots of other uses), but a person needs to spend a lot more than $8 on a box of shells. How about $400 on a series of beginning and intermediate practical shotgun tactics taught by a local deputy? How about ammo by the CASE, in 1. interior home defense (hardened #1 shot), 2. longer range shooting (#00 shot), 3. Point shooting (slugs)? You’ll save money by buying ammo in quantity.
Hyperbole …”you could put your fist through” is not useful.
Know what is behind your target. This is where aiming low, belly/hips, is good, because misses tend to hit the floor/ground, not continue through sheetrock and generally-flimsy American wooden house construction.
Electronic shooting earphones are a huge advantage if shooting indoors. A shotgun blast is incredibly loud inside, and being able to hear afterword might be useful.
The weapon should be loaded, one in the chamber, safety engaged. When you rack a pump shotgun, you have alerted the intruder to your 1. LOCATION, 2. WEAPON, 3. lost the INITIATIVE, and perhaps dumped a round onto the ground. If there is a gunfight, you will miss that round. Silence is your ally as you watch and listen to the intruder.
A verbal command “STOP” will be sufficient for your conscience, when you are looking down the barrel with a snug grip on the trigger ready to fire. Have a light attached to your weapon that is powerful enough to identify the target. 12 ga with slug or big pellets WILL stop any unarmored person, hit center mass. Even with armor, pain/damage. You can miss with a shotgun! So, train to aim.
Don’t shoot people outside your house unless lives are in immediate danger (in most States). Call the cops. Don’t shoot someone breaking into your house until they get at least a little inside (don’t shoot through door). Stand back and wait for them to break in, then shoot. Your defense lawyer will thank you.
Don’t be an idiot and meet the responding police carrying a weapon in your hands. Shoulder strap, over shoulder, safed. Don’t leave a loaded weapon unattended where the fleeing BG might find it. Obey the cops when they arrive. Shut up. SHUT UP!
A plan for this situation should include everyone in the house. Children should have a job (hide, escape to X, call X) when alerted, if they are able.
Decide now if you, your spouse, and your children are more valuable than a drug-addled professional criminal/psychopath who may decide to have a little fun with you all before executing everyone and checking for a safe. He’s getting the needle anyway, so why not save the State a few bucks and live a good long life? A: yes.
Cheers.
rufus13 you sound like law enforcement with good training.
If ther SHTF first thing I’d do is use the opportunity to kill all the cats roaming around in my neighborhood.
Yes, I would.
I do not want to take someone’s life, but if there is a threat to my family, then I will do what I must and deal with the emotional and esoteric questions after the fact.
If at 3am, someone is stealing your foodstuffs or tools meant to make the lives of your family members possible or more comfortable, you should feel obligated to escalate the situation to the point of deadly force, not watch haplessly from the kitchen window as you’re robbed blind. The whole idea is, you should feel every necessity you own and employ an extension of you and your family and as such, the obligation to defend from it being pilfered.
I can and will, without hesitation or remorse
without a dogdamn doubt
Kill em all, and let God sort them out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
does a dyslexic athiest not belive in dog?
Yes
Gun control to me, is hitting what I aimed at, with every round.
I look at it this way..they know the risks involved in entering a mans home with intent to do harm or to steal..so My intent is to lay them out and remind any of their followers what will happen to them, if they make the same mistake
Could I tecnically..yes, no problem
would i want to be forced into this decision..NO
will I have some “dealing with it” to do?..yep, probably, but if they came with nefarious means to do me harm ,, a day and a drink will get me over it.
but when it comes down to self preservation or the security of my family..the lead will fly, if there is anything left of them after my dogs get a hold of them
and if they wack my dog,, you can bet they just signed thier own death sentance..he is just as much a family member as any of my children or wife.
Roge O VRF!!
Funny, I used to confuse people by say “Gun control is hitting your target with the second round also!” So many did not get that. Sad!
Cruachan!
actually gun control is holding your gun w/both hands to steady it.
VRF – Affirmative to your entry! When the SHTF, perimeter defenses will be max. If my German Shepherd, a major family member, gets wasted due to house assault, its total retaliation on the perps.
Absolutly
My dog is my fist line of defense, he is my early warning sign..My cameras will not wake me up if they see something, but he will if he hears or sees something.
I also have him trained to give a warning signal to let the perp know of his presence..if they ignore that, he shuts up and sees if they force their way in, if they do..they will never leave.
He gives me time to get my shit together and get my game on.
I have tell tale signs on my property that there is a large animal that lives here..a dog house that is in clear sight if you drive by..his feeding bowls..and a completely fenced yard..that if he chooses to jump, its no problem for him.
I also prep for him to be a part of our family thru the hard times..stored bones, and kibble..and a rain water storage just for him.
I my wife has the attachment to him as her son..I pitty the fool that would not reguard his life as precious, because I know if he was taken from her by some means of agression..she would selflessly hunt the perp down and make him pay for any act he bestowed upon her baby
people or figures of power can laugh at this all they want but thaat animal is not seen as an animal in this house..he is a family member, and we would want just as much justice for his killing as we would for one of our children..yes we are that serious
if i saw some one deliberately hurt, or kill my Dog..I would deliberately hurt or kill them, end of story.
The police dogs are treated like cops, my dog is treated like family
I get where the author is coming from with this topic, but I look at it from a slightly different perspective.
Yes, I could and would shoot someone if my (or my family’s) life or property were in harm. It may sound cold-hearted but the first thing through my mind is not can I deal with the emotional after effect of using deadly force, it’s more – now there’s a dead guy in my living room and I need to call the cops (if they exist) and are they going to confiscate my weapon(s)? Yes, I’m more concerned with Johnny Law taking my only means of defending myself because I dropped an assailant.
I fell asleep watching National Geographic’s Gangs of LA last weekend and ended up having a dream about me having to pull the trigger in defense. I hesitated not because of taking a life, but because I didn’t want to lose my weapon.
Point here is, I think if I came upon an intruder, I’d aim but unless they charged I’d make every attempt to get them to run away just so I didn’t have to deal with paperwork and confiscation. This is also why the first round of my 12ga is a bean bag round (followed by 00 buck). Should I ever have to go to trial, having proof that you even gave a warning shot before you killed someone does wonders.
*round = cartridge
dont call 911
who really knows he was at your home?
he’s a theif or murderer..they dont say to their wife, or kids..”hey if i dont come home tonight from my pillaging raping and theifing..tell the cops im at this address”
no , that doesnt happen..so who’s to say he was at your place?
catch my drift?
Drift caught, but living in a townhouse, chances of hiding a shotgun or AR shot (or a body) are pretty low.
“It takes a special kind of person…”
Where I’m from, we call it family. The secrets we’ve kept in our family would make a great mini-series.
Some of those secrets did indeed go to the grave. Our family don’t rat each other out!
I like this reply. In a situation that many of us are planning for, we may just stack the bodies up on the curb as a warning. “What me? I didn’t see who shot them.”
By the way, in neighboring Alabama, the local sheriff on one county reminded his citizens that they have the right to use deadly force to protect lives and property. Situation was, someone broke into a convenience store at night after the deadly tornados back in April and found the business end of an armed property owner. Whoops. He never made it home to dinner, and the property owner got Kudos!
Yehaaaaw! Wee don’t play down here in Dixie boys! Hang a paneling scrap around his neck with baling wire “LOOTER” “Have a nice legal day and ask if you’re hungry” Whatever you say happens-happens….unless you allow him to raise up and refute your words. Remember THEY cand and WILL come back. Unless it is a very bad shoot you should not have any problems. Alabama law gives even more leeway that needed cause I still think that in the treet you should disengage if you possibly can in COMPLETE SAFETY as the law USED to require. If you do it right andlegal….you don’t need to lie.
Your a fool if you think you would get away with that. Any lies told will confirm your guilt if you go to trial. Tell the truth or shut up if you have to use deadly force.
exactly right, If you shoot anyone in front of any witness including close relatives, you also have to do away with them or suffer the punishment someday. It takes a special kind of person to keep their mouth shut and go to the grave with what they know and it also takes a special kind of person to kill people and never let it bother them.
1st round a bean bag? dude your asking to get killed..
His first round is a bullet, and your going to eat it if dont take him out with your first round, and the 3 to 4 more rounds you lay out in quick sucession right after the first one
if your going to pull the trigger.. no warning shots, and no bean bags..take the threat OUT!
Point taken. I may rethink the bean bag for a dispersion tool – i.e. getting a crowd to leave my street. But for that I’d have time to pick my load. For an intruder, you’re right, the 00 buck should come first. Excuse me while I go swap that out.
Make the bean bag your last round. The one you put in AFTER you’ve exhausted the 00 Buckshot. How would anyone know what came out of the barrel first? You were the only one there and you loaded the weapon.
I’ve been burglarized, vandalized and have had to use a weapon to chase off a would-be home invasion (at 2 a.m.). I had a shotgun leveled at the intruder’s head. He left — and came back 10 minutes later…
I have more than one shotgun More than one pistol. And a Concealed Weapons Permit. I think everyone’s freedom ends where another man’s nose begins. If someone wants to steal my life, someone is going to die trying.
I can pull the trigger.
Bird shot is a dispersion round.
Bird shot is for killing little birds.
I’ve seen ugly horrible shallow wound pictures that the bad guy survived (likely murderously angry after being shot) that was 12ga bird shot. Use buck or slugs that can penetrate more than 12″ of meat/bone and hit the target squarely. “Stopping” is an important feature of shooting an assailant/intruder.
A decent injury attorney could make a case for “intentional bodily injury, including blinding” without intention to stop a felony in progress from a bird shot shooting, I betcha. You might win the case, but be broke forever from the civil suit. Dead finks don’t talk.
Cheers.
My dad taught me to shoot the assailant(s) first and then fire the warning round.
Here Officer Friendly, certainly you may take my gun for evidence or evaluation I have another….
LMFAO, WELLLLLLLLLLLLLLL? HELL YEAH, GO AHEAD TRY TO GET MY STUFF OR HARM MY FAMILY, HOPE YOU LIKE THE TASTE OF LEAD, OOHRAH
Rule# 1 – If you are unwilling to take a person’s life in self defense, PLEASE turn in your firearm(s)!!!
Correction: if you are unwilling to take a person’s life in self-defense, please sell your firearms to me cheap!!
Actually, since the person is unwilling to take a person’s life in self defense, and would have given that firearm to the assailant (aka criminal), then it is technically free. So, with that in mind, instead of turning it in, I rather they give it to me for free!!!
Let me introduce you to my new good friend Mr. Lee Enfield, born in 1945.
Welcome to taste his “ten finger hand”.
Manos: Got one, british 303, damn good rifle, cheap to buy at any gun show, oh wait what am i saying, its not made in America, whatever!
My purchase is a Canadian one. This is a demilitarized one from the Greek Navy.
Since it’s forbidden in Greece to have military rifles, its barrel was taken off, and its been converted to a shotgun legally. I gave my mossberg to my dad, and kept this one.
It’s much more scary in sight, and with rifled slugs it’s a real monster.
what shells does it take?
SKSlover,
Good morning. It takes ,410, the same ones as the saiga .
Up to 150 meters is really good. I tried it in the shooting club a couple of times.
It’s only defect is its weight. But i don’t mind.
Good morning to you too manos,
I’m a big fan of the Lee Enfield, and have a sporterised MkIV. Also a big fan of the .410, and i think it’s got to be awesome to have the 2 combined.
A lot of this article deals with who decides if you have the right to use force. If someone is coming up to your door, the last thing you want to consider is whether the corp will support your actions for shooting them if they come inside, or try to.
Who cares?
When faced with a deadly situation, wasting that one second to consider what the corp might “think” could be the second that cost you your life.
Defend yourself as you see fit, not as others would have you do, or what you think others might do.
Mac, the Almighty God has built into you all of the elements you need to defend yourself, even the ability to kill (but not murder) an intruder that means you harm.
I believe that all who have a clean heart and soul will have the power to do what is right when the time comes. The ultimate power will come from the Almighty, not the gun.
But the martial arts teachers are right. Avoid the conflict at all cost. God gave you life, but not the right to risk it foolishly.
Im too young to die, and too old to take an ass wooping
VRF: Reminds me of a saying my Dad said, A young man will beat the hell out of ya, but an old man will kill ya cause he aint got the time to mess with ya, guess what i will be 53 on Saturday, the saying has finally caught up with me, isnt that niffty!
sounds like your Dad is a wise man, and its so true..
and i can relate to the catching up of age..I aint got the time to ask the intruder “WTF are you doing in my house” Ill let my 1911 do the talking..or if its inside my home than it will be my 870 with 7.5 OZ of #7 shot that will cut him in half
I think my biggest concern in regards to personal protection and home defense is collateral damage. I’m responsible for each bullet that flies from the barrel of my weapon. I would hate to have a bullet go through a few walls and hit a neighbor…
Both boys went into the Marines and I was Army. Both thought that they could take me when they got out of basic, both learned the hard way that old age and trechery always beats young and full of piss and viniger!
Cruachan!
If my life, my family, or an unarmed person who is at risk of imminent death, yes double tap, center mass, just the way i was trained, its my responsibility to avoid it, but no hesitation otherwise! I hope and pray that day never crosses my path. The cemetaries are full of tough guys, and each and everyone of them were just dying to get in there!
Wise talk.
Good morning (night here).
Be prepared
Survival for you & family is the primary key!
If its a case of you breathing tomorrow or the bad guy, its NOT a multiple choice question! And your death will not help your family whatsoever and in fact diminsh their long survival in a SHTF scenario.
So you shoot, defend and live.
You may not kill your attacker – thats fine too as long as he is out of the fight. If theres any doubt that he is NOT neutralized, keep the gun ON target. Double tap again where necessary.
Last points – never get in close to see if he’s dead, that the EMS’s job not yours. Forget about your carpet.
Saving your own life is NOT a something to be ashamed of,
you dont need to lose any sleep over. There are 1000’s of killers in jail who would not give a damn about you or your family’s lives.
Focus on who you want to wake up in the morning and has breakfast with their family – him or you !
Does this headline question also apply to dealing with agents of a totalitarian government?
sure..if they break the law, and enter with no legal representation or legal right to enter..sweep em..maybe they will remember that we have rights and they have rules to abide by..like handing you a warrent listing what and where they are searching and fo what..
because without that, how are you supposed to knwo that they are legit?
What about those no-knock search warrants?
http://www.ksla.com/story/15455893/19-men-arrested-on-drug-charges-in-midlands
a No Knock warrent is signing all those cops death warrents..its a stupid act that is covered by our consitution..
If they dont serve you, serve them lead.
hey it is them that didnt follow the rules..thats what they get
how are you to know who the fuck they are at 3 Am?
oh yeah them yelling “police”? oh please, the crooks have done this in some of the larger cities and have come in and killed people thinking they were the cops
Its putting our police men in danger, and its a practice that needs to stop
I say clear the room and teach them we have the right to protect our homes from illegal forced entry
when they do an act like this all rules of engagement are out the window, its stupid, and any cop that signs up for this duty deserves to be handed his ass in 2 oz cup. they took an oath, they know the rules..its no different than a crook doing the same thing..so they get the same welcome mat.
In Canada, if you license any gun, you must sign a legal document allowing the RCMP free reign to search your home, at anytime, with or without propbable cause, and with or without a warrant.
THIS is why I’ve chosen not to jump through the hoops to get a weapon while living here. It’s just not worth having the Gestapo stomp through my home at will.
This is why a person might want to spend a little more money than for an 870 or M500, and get a good .30 cal semi automatic like an M1A/FAL/HK91/etc. Predators now come with improved hides, but the ones that can shrug off 150 grains at 2750 fps are awful to hump around.
I can not tell the difference between a SWAT no-knock entry and a gang home invasion. Both wear black and yell “POLICE” when they break in at 3:30AM. Both get one magazine into the entry zone, with possibly a reload. Belt-fed.50 would be better, but you know…
Real police show up in pairs, in a marked car, with ID, in dress uniform, with the warrant in-hand, and knock on the front door. Please send one of my local beat cops who we know. It would be even cheaper if they would call and make an appointment for me to explain the situation without an arrest. Don’t the police work for the people? Not if they take Federal Dept of Human Sacrifice money!
Cheers.
Yup, I take it as so!
Cruachan!
Question: Can you display your weapon as a deterrent if, for instance, a hostile riot is forming nearby? They’re throwing rocks in windows?
No concealment is your leg up..never pull it or brandish it unless your going to use it for its intended purpose
never tip your hand as to what you have hidden…only when you equalize the situation
That’s what tear gas is for.
not here in oregon, you’d be “brandishing” a weapon which is against the law…a DA once told me to be sure the perp is over the threshold before you drop him and call for cleanup…
No. You need to leave. You are not the police. Windows can be easily replaced.
I don’t know about your state, but in Arizona, brandishing (outside of your home) or intimidating with a firearm (I believe) is a felony.
Now if you happened across someone who is in the commission of a life-threatening situation and drawing your weapon is the only option to stop the threat, then someone might appreciate the fact that you were armed. But if you do draw, be prepared to fire — and know that you might be in the sites of an accomplice.
If you can help it, never get involved in a third-party dispute. And make sure you have a good attorney.
Actually, in AZ if you brandish your firearm and you can prove you did it to de-escalate a violent situation which would have resulted in severe malicious bodily injury or death then it is OK.
Guy comes at you threatening to assault you after a verbal warning to keep his distance, you draw your firearm, guy retreats, you call cops immediately afterwards to report the disturbance: OK
Guy smudges your Pumas at the movie theater, you draw your weapon in anger: Aggravated assault which is a felony.
HB 2629 was signed into law on May 11, 2010
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/hb2629s.pdf
I most certainly could. Another way of asking this is “could you kill an animal to feed yourself and your family?”. Because whether it is death from starvation or death from starvation because you will unwilling to defend your supply of food, you will have to kill in order to survive. If you balk at killing an animal, then you are in serious trouble when your survival may depend on it. As far as nonlethal deterrents like wasp spray or tasers, etc. the person you deter one day will probably come back the next with a gun and kill you with no warning. My father always says ” never bring a knife to a gunfight”. If you do not have that killer instinct already, that is something you will need to cultivate in yourself.
SUGGESTION:
Target practice with mannequins.
Put them in clothes too. This makes it very realistic. You need to become comfortable with the thought of shooting another person in case the SHTF !!!
Never thought of that
What about inflatable woman? Just asking!
You need to consider that the bullet may ricochet…
I would NEVER want to be “comfortable” taking another person’s life.
This is for all of you preppers. “Don’t fear the reaper”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtoK2CSTehQ&feature=related
that song is older than me…jeeze.
Circa 1977 Still rocks out. Kinda goofy theme though….”I love you lets whack ourselves”? Lead guitar really kicks it.
I must be older than dirt then Havok, because I’ve seen B.O.C. in concert a few times. 😀
State Law has affirmed the Castle Doctrine in Florida. You do not have to back up or attempt to retreat from an individual threatening you either in your home or out in public.
I have a Concealed Carry Permit issued by the State of Florida. In addition to the Beretta 21a that I carry regularly; I also carry a high quality automatic knife (switchblade) in my right front pocket. Our former governor, Mr. Jeb Bush, signed the bill into law making legal the sale, ownership and possession of automatic knives in Florida on his last night in office. Thank God that we don’t live in one of the ‘nanny-states’ where they
OOps, sorry. I intended to say that I’m glad that I don’t live in one of the ‘nanny-states’ where they attempt to disarm the civilian population.
Living in NY sucks for soooooo many reasons.
Shoot Someone? Come on, the economy will grow little bit, no collapse. Armageddon has been announced so many times, it will not come no more :))
Gun Control = using both Hands.
No hesitation, lethal force…
Yes I would shoot someone if i had to in a SHTF scenario especially that asshole neighbor of mine………….
Actually, if you are doing SIP mode then you need to get your neighbours up to speed on prep and mindset – it will be better than eliminating a potential resource. Just a thought..!
It’s not a problem at all…….
The author brings up an interesting consideration; could I end up in jail for defending myself / family. Something to think about, before you call to repor…………………….
Gaye, you should probably get yourself a taser. This allows you to completely immobilie an intruder from 15 feet away. He drops to the ground and then you handcuff him, use a binding strap, or use rope to make sure he doesn’t try anything stupid after he comes to. You have 30 seconds before he regains his faculties.
This has some huge advantages but also some disadvantages. If there’s more than one bad guy, you’re completely screwed. And if you hestitate to tie him up in the alloted time, you are now at risk again. You get only one shot which costs $400 and if you miss, expect a scene like the one in The Shining where Jack Nicholson smashes through the door with an ax and announces “Here’s Johnny”.
But tasering is safe and you will most definitely not get in trouble with the law using it on an uninvited guest in your home. In fact, the LEO will compliment you on safely dealing with the threat. Note: Don’t confuse a taser with a stun gun. A stun gun requires close contact whereas a taser lets you stay a safe distance away.
He will be out in two weeks to track you down or burn you down.
Not if, after you taser, bind, load into vehicle, push out door of said vehicle going 70 MPH on dark highway.
Note: A TASER is not a stun gun, which is listed as an option by the author. Also, they are a bit expensive.
The stun guns are virtually useless because of the need for direct contact and the fact that they do not really stun the bad guy. They give some pain and/or discomfort that can be easily overcome. Whereas, a good hit with a TASER will actually incapacitate the bad guy for thirty seconds, so if you can, run! It is probably better than being like a cowboy at a rodeo and trying to tie him up.
That said, I have two TASERs and zip ties just in case this very scenario comes to pass. However, my TASERs are really there just to help me fight my way to my shotgun!
I won’t hesitate to shoot in the defense of my life and my precious family. The intruder made a decision that someone may die during the event and I will do my best to not let it be me.
For those kind and gentle people who think they cannot kill another human being in self-defense, you are not doing anyone else any favors by letting them live to kill other innocent people. You have an OBLIGATION to defend yourself from evil, if you are a good person.
If you have to fight your way to your shotgun, use your pistol. Or your Cold Stee Bowie or just keep the shotgun closer. These kinds of comments seem like they are caused by sore vaginas.
Or you could take your Benchmade knife and open up his belley and drag his gut out which is one way of killing his ass ( which you should have already done) Tazering is notoriously sometimes non-reaiable for so many different reasons. This of course if in a TSHTF scenario.Otherwise I would knock his ass out with a ballpeen jhammer or a pisselm club, woodworkers mallet. it don/t cost 4000.00 to incapacitate someone who needs incapacitaion or to incapactiate someone who needs killin’.
Mac: I personally think this article will break ALL records, kinda been waiting for it. LOL
The comments are certainly interesting thus far! Gaye over at Backdoor Survival did a great job with this one!
it’s an intersting question. in ww2 the actual kill rates were miserable. many soldiers admitted they fired around the enemy rather than directly at another human.
the military needed a solution to that problem. thank god for video games. that has turned the current kill ratio into a positive number for the number crunchers.
the men in the military now shooting at “insurgents” are watching movements on a screen. looks like something right out of a movie. removes the human part of the equation.
as for me…yes, I would if I was forced too. nothing I would like to do. matter of fact I’m certain I would be an emotional wreck afterwards. reliving the trauma in my mind over and over again.
my fear wouldn’ty be if I could but rather how I would respond afterwards. it would haunt me for sure. but I would not back down and allow myself or my family to be a victem in any case.
Rachel your attitude will keep you alive. You should have a simple rule – if you have to get your weapon -use it. And you are right about the killing rates and the vid games. Maybe these games are not so bad for our kids after all?
My boys are all in their thirties, and I figure we will all be together when the SHTF. They are ready.
It would tear me up a lot worse if someone I loved was killed while I stood there and watched—do not hesitate, they probably won’t.
I read that book (On Killing) too and I now make my Soldier’s read it.
As far as killing, well, it’s not like the movies. Ask any infantry guy who’s actually engaged.
Most of what you say is true Rachel but I don’t recall having a tv screen on my M4 or 240 bravo when I was in Afghanistan.
Nothing works like iron sights, tracer and the mark I eyeball.
Should someone break into my home my family is prepared mentally and equipment-wise to use deadly force. I strongly advise reading the book ‘On Killing’ by Grossman. It turns out that in WWII and in the Civil War some 90 percent of our American conscripts could not pull the trigger once they had a German in their gunsights. By the Vietnam war the US had recognized and fixed the problem. The firing rate was up to ninety percent not ten. How did they fix the problem – training, training of a certain kind. All humans have a built-in aversion to killing. If you are not prepared this will get you killed. Buy and read this book!
I’m sure that in a post-apocalypse world, most survivors will have gotten over their aversion to killing those who need killin’. Dying is really not the worst thing that can happen to other people. Guns and ammunition will be family treasure.
The current problem with US Military is that there is so little marksmanship training of the regular, until they get sent to Designated Marksman School. If you suspect that your boy may be inclined to join the Army or Marines, they need to become proficient accurate shooters of a mil-spec AR-15/M4gery and M1A by at least age 16 and have 10000 rounds fired under all kinds of conditions. It might mean their survival a few years later.
The theory is “Mass Fire” where a whole buncha rounds go generally downrange. “Firing rate” is not hits! By making the rounds cheap/light and somewhat less effective than the .30 they replaced, everybody gets to shoot and keep shooting. 3-round bursts are supposed to compensate for the lack of 400M killing power of a single hit. Isn’t that 10 shots (3-round bursts) in a magazine, vs. 20 big .308 Win aimed shots from an M-14? Soldiers fighting to defend their country can really make hay with a great rifle like the M-14. Conscripts and economic “volunteers”, less so.
Cheers.
“I don’t know”. I could very well freeze long enough for the violent heartless criminal to get the drop on me. Once fired at I think returning fire would be relatively easy assuming you survived the initial attack.
The gun fighters of the old west on both sides of the law survived because they did not hesitate. The civilized rules of morality preclude killing unless it is absolutely necessary to protect your life. That might take a second or two to reason out assuming you have those rules pre-wired into your personality as damn near all of us do. Those that don’t I care not to be around.
Kevin,
Sweep the leg!
Do it, or your off the team!
No comment.
I’d rather be tryed by 12 then carried by 6.
I’d rather be on trial for his killing then him for mine.
If I don’t stop eating my own cooking I’m gonna have to be carried by 12.
pulled my gun when i got in my car after being assulted he was hitting me with my car door as i was pulling my weapon it discharged into the floor he ran didnt get to get a second shot would have shot him in a heartbeat
You MUST assume that anyone breaking into your home is armed and intent on doing you and/or yours bodily harm. To think otherwise can be fatal.
A great starting point to training is PERSONAL PROTECTION IN THE HOME – NRA DEFENSIVE HANDGUN COURSE. It’s an 8 hour course with two hours of range time. Contact your local range for availability.
I have a 9MM Glock 19 with three 15 round magazines always at the ready.
As long as you keep the fact in your mind that they certainly can & will kill you, you’ll have no problems doing it.
My answer to each defense option:
Chemical Sprays (A cop friend once had a criminal ask for crackers with the spray he’d hit him with…then he kept coming at him!)
Martial arts (Good, if you can at least make it to black belt, but remember, a criminal’s gun reaches farther than your arms and legs.)
Firearms (Absolutely, evens the odds!)
Battering devices & Knives(LOL…seriously? You’d take a stick or a knife to a possible gun fight?)
Stun Guns If SHTF, Could You and Would You Shoot Someone? (Not a bad choice, but without extending wires, again you’ll be in close quarters. If the criminal is armed, are you going to get that close to stun them?)
Avoidance (That’s the British way. Call police and hide in a closet until help arrives.)
Personally, I do NOT relish the thought of taking another person’s life. However, the thought of what they might do to my children brings out the PROTECTOR in me. In a SHTF world, anyone breaking into my home will be desperate enough to harm us, not just steal. The only warning they’ll get is the sound of my shot gun being chambered!
…the sound of a pump shotgun commands attention—even in complete darkness. That’s MY idea of “deterrence”
about the tell tale “racking a round”..dont do this..your home defense weapon should always be locked cocked and ready to rock with just a flip of the safety,
also conciter the tense situation and the possible low lighting..you aint going to be able to hit shit with a pistol, except maybe your kid thru the wall..
No you need a short shot gun, with 7 to8 oz of #7 or so shot..it wont go thru the wall, but it will cut the intruder in half at 20′ and you wont miss with the first round.. or any there afterwards, and typically all home invasion distance is less then 10′ on an average.
the act of racking a round is provocation..and its giving away your intent, and possition..not a good idea.
I have an 870 that holds 7 rounds with all bird hunting rounds in it..cheap..I get 100 rounds for around 22 bucks
it has a lazer and a super bright light that strobes or flases or comes on full blast with the lazer red dot too.
i wouldnt turn on one light for the intruder leave your house dark if you hear a sound, because if anyone is outside the home once you light it up inside, you just gave away your possition too, they will be able to see you, and dont light it up inside if they are in already..
so when you light him up your sure not to miss.
I have a pair of Glocks. I chose them because I suspect that when the SHTF, my body will be full of adrenaline and I don’t want to hit the “safety switch” only to have my mag drop to the floor.
My Glocks are always on…
Mossberg 20 gauge, pistol grip, 6 rounds of #8, red laser, makes big holes at 15 ft(the end of my hallway).
Actually, my DH is seriously looking at The Taurus Raging Judge Magnum Revolver.
Here’s an awesome video!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zciXrSe6R_s
Bird shot is for killing little birds. The small light pellets don’t penetrate human-scale anatomy effectively. You “might” stop them, but not if they are on some dope/anger and determined, because nothing critical will be missing or bleeding out without a bunch of luck. If you have luck like this, a soft drink straw will work.
“Stopping” is a really interesting study that even now is not absolutely a science. Bigger/more and deeper seems to help, as does making all of an assailants blood run out. A “sure instant stop” seems to require a lucky hit of the base of the brain or the upper spine/neck. This is really difficult to do reliably, even for police & military snipers.
Use #0/#00 or a slug for defense applications.
Cheers.
well said VRF, but that sound is only a split second away from business—about enough time for an intruder to decide to back out or charge—my trigger finger can be pretty fast. So I guess you mean if the intruder has a weapon at the ready…
One of my best friends from high school is a marine and served in iraq in ’02-03 during the push, he fought in najif and falujah, he was involved in some of the worse house to house fighting, i asked him if he had killed anyone and what it was like, he said that up to that point, he had always wondered if he would be able to pull the trigger when the time came, and what he learned was that when the target was trying to hurt him and his friends, it was VERY easy.
i’m sure that is much different than a home invasion, but i think that if the time comes for us, we will do the right thing… shooting someone in cold blood, wouold be very hard, but if it was to protect my loved ones, i dont feel like i would have a problem with it at all….but i guess you never really know till it happens…
“in cold blood” refers to when you had other rational options, but chose to kill unnecessarily, for the sake of killing. That, I couldn’t do. Defending yourself and loved ones is anything but “cold-blooded” and to look at it that way, you disarm yourself, mentally. You will probably hesitate and die, trying to decide if the aggressor has a right to live after breaking in and attacking your family…don’t give any intruder that kind of power over you.
i didn’t mean it that way, as far as i’m concerned, anything inside of my doorstep is a free-fire zone…
I have brandished a firearm on least five seperate occasions, but did not have to pull the trigger. One of those times the other party also had a firearm. On that instance I did have all the slack on the trigger taken up before the guy realized that mine was pointed at him and his was pointed at the ground, at which time he ran back to his car and left. I’ll do whatever is necessary but hopefully I’ll live the rest of my life in relative peace.
in that case, I personally dont see that as “brandishing”
I see that as a tactical manuver, and your one leg up on your possible assailant, good move sir
Had to post. Forgive I am out n about so this is from phone.
U refuse to defend? Then you are an evolutionary dead end. Can’t pull a trigger? Then you die or get raped and die. Or watch your kids get raped to get you to reveal where your “stash” is.
No stash? Oh my get ready for *days* of torture and rape… Look at how Argentina collapsed.
As for me, you fail to defend and act like a human with a spine, I’ll either do you myself or throw you out the door to defend yourself.
You cannot defend your own and what you worked for? Then you literally are not even Human.
That’s pretty harsh. The author has a conscience.
Not killing doesn’t mean that someone is spineless – if anything it likely means the contrary. While this is not the decision I have made regarding home defense, I respect other people’s decisions and would not consider them “sub-human” nor would I choose to victimize them myself.
If evolution was a true “theory” they this person , with their severe avoidance tendencies would have been extinct circa Miocene or so. Every body can’t be Gandhi…besides he got really pissed off sometimes too!
I would definitely do it to save my life or the lives of family or friends. I literally wouldn’t even think twice about it.
I’d do more than shoot people LOL
“I could not shoot with the intent to harm.”
I couldn’t either shoot to HARM someone. I have noticed a very disturbing trend for the last two years, or so, in the NRA monthly magazine column: The Armed Citizen. This column compiles new stories from around the nation to demonstrate situations where people have used firearms to protect themselves. In the overwhelming majority of the articles the criminal was shot at and wounded (HARMED). Clearly the people defending themselves are all very lousy at handling firearms, or they desired not to HARM others. And you will “end up in jail or prison for exercising my right to defend myself” and the criminal lives to tell their version of the story. And you might get sued in a civil action by the criminal. My family members have already been on the receiving end of the harassment, stalking, obscene and threatening phone calls, and sexual assualt. Talking solved nothing, neither did law enforcement, nor did living in fear. As for me and the women of my house we are prepared to shoot to kill. There is no acceptable alternative.
I did read one a while back where a women wounded an assaliant and then latter they returned and she not only killed one but chased the other down the street, she was something like 60 or 70 years old. That is amazing. And if she let him get away she knew he’d return so really the threat was still there.
The Hebrew translation of the 6th commandment: thou shalt not kill…IS REALLY ‘thou shalt not murder’.
Difference? Murder: unlawful killing of a person.
Hmmmm..food for thought.
As far as shooting someone its no different then it is right now. If you threaten me, my family or people around me with serious bodily injury and I have a clear shot and back drop your gonna die. I will also keep shooting till you are dead.
Once you cross the use of deadly force line, I will have no reservations. I also reccommend that all of you be aware or your state and local laws on the use of deadly force.
I’m not including a psycopath here, but almost everyone remembers their first kill. So whether its just having to put your dog down, running over an animal in the road or combat you will remember it vividly. Its not pretty, its not glorious and it will change you forever.
I’m not comparing the three events I’m just saying none of them will make you feel good.
This topic is stupid.. what??? Just what?? Wait and interview the intruder to see just why he’s standing over my daughter’s bed with that rope, duct tape, and cable ties at 2:00 am??
I fricking don’t think so.
Tennessee raised and presently, Kentucky resident.
On the surface, fortunately with an arsenal of top of the line weapons at my disposal to back me up, it’s easy for me to say “yes” (whether it be to defend my family or anyone else’s family, either in the local neighborhood or any of those who post here), but I have yet to take a life and so, the circumstances would have to present themselves to me in a way that left absolutely, no doubt, there were no other options available.
Personally, I don’t want to kill anyone. I don’t want to take that with me, the “residue”, no matter how righteous my intent was, or how evil their behavior was in the altercation. I will do anything and everything I can to prevent ending someone’s life as long as I’m not jeopardizing my life or others in the process. Only as a last resort would I use lethal force. It’s a fine line, the more analytical one gets the less time one has to respond, but I’m willing to play it out that way and let my intuition be my guide, navigating me through the various “mind” fields.
I’ve pretty much gone through a multitude of scenarios in my head, as I suspect we all have, but many more “unknown” factors, still linger in my mind. It is clear that if someone is shooting at me, I WILL shoot back. If someone is chasing me or a loved one with, let say, a knife, with what I perceive as an intent to harm, I will use my weapon. If someone is beating up an innocent, defenseless person, I will step in. But in that case, will I shoot to kill or shoot to wound? It all depends. Someone comes to the door looking for food and looking suspicious, take ’em out? For me many of the scenarios are not black and white. Some people I know say “kill’em all and let God sort it out”. That could be what works mentally and emotionally for some people and if everything “really” goes to hell then I might have to adopt that strategy, but for the moment, I’m going to do my best to stay invisible and avert the danger so as to keep my slate as clean as possible. It’s a philosophy that has worked for me so far but not necessarily one that mainstream survivalists would snuggle up to. In the meantime, my guns are loaded and placed where they need to be for defending myself and home.
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
(Note: there is another side to this topic. How many here have actually killed someone? I’m not talking while in a military or a police role, I’m talking about in defense of one’s personal life at home or on the road. Something tells me that the answer is, or is close to, “zero”. In either case, I’d like to hear from those that have killed someone, what was the experience. And from those who haven’t killed someone, how do you know you can? Typing with a resounding “YES” here with great bravado is one thing, whereas actually having what it takes to perform the action is an entirely different universe, at least so it would seem.)
If you want to play lumberjack while being a police officer out on the streets at 0300 or military dumped out on the other side of the world, you’re going to have to learn to carry your side of the log. You think it’s any easier…
I didn’t say it was any easier, those are your words. However, there is a difference in what I was referring to. A conscious choice was made. If one is in the military and one is ordered to kill the “enemy,” whether that be a truly “bad” guy that’s getting killed or innocent people that are being killed, and civilians are being killed by the thousands “over there”, one has taken an oath to follow through with those orders. The giver of those orders is ultimately responsible, imo. I’m not saying the military man doesn’t feel the effects of his or her actions, but joining the service was a conscious decision made by a conscious person, knowing all along of the risks involved IN ADVANCE as well as with the taking of life an understood and necessary, potential requirement.
There are no orders from a higher up to terminate another’s life, other than what one “might” possible hear from a Higher Realm, when defending one’s home. That’s ONE of the major differences I’m implying to.
What’s that Marine saying “War is our business and business is good?”
I disagree. Don’t think you ever had that conscious choice and still don’t know an order or oath, conscious or not. You wouldn’t know the risks and only understand Terminater in the movie. You could learn a lot from a police officer or any vet. Don’t defend yourself while attacking experience. Just buy him a cup of coffee and tell him thanks and he might tell you a story that will curl your toes.
I cannot say I personally have had to do this, But one of my best friends (and thankfully so, still to this day)
Had to kill an intruder, and yes the other guy was armed, and had a file on other shit he pulled, and was allowed to go out an inflict it on yet another person or family!..well my besst friend put an end to his ecapades with a .45 at about 15′..he had his moments with it, had talks with his preacher about it..kinda tore the ol boy up for quite a while..But he has come to terms with the fact that if he hadent done what he did..that his entire family could very well been abused and wiped off the planet by this walking experiment of our legal system
Had an almost –
As a full time RV’er, had been boon docking for a couple of weeks and came to town to resupply before traveling to my next destination. It was a Price Club then, and it had just closed for the day, so decided to camp in the empty parking lot and shop in the morning.
It was a Sunday and the weather was still hot that late afternoon, so I had the door open and the screen door latched while reading a book on the sofa. I had a CB, this was before cell phone technology, a Dobie dog, and a semi auto Tec 22. (Mine was one of the first and liked the way it looked like a mini machine hand gun with it’s long ammo magazines.)
Heard a vehicle come on the property, so I got up for a look. It was an older convertible with three guys in it. You could tell they were young, had been drinking, military with their buzz cuts, and this Price Club was located near an Army base. Two in front had on white T-shirts and the one in back had no shirt. They circled the RV and on seeing me, the one in back said “there’s a girl in there!” and they pulled away.
Living this alternative lifestyle, my agreement with myself was to always trust my intuition. So, I closed and locked the door and put my handgun at the ready and went back reading.
A short time later, the car races to the RV, they get out and pound on the door. They asked me step out of the vehicle as they said my CB was interfering with their reception. I said No, I’m not opening the door or leaving the vehicle. They started attacking the door for entry and I went to the driver’s seat and turned the key and started forward.
One of them jumped on my side passenger mirror (semi truck type) and was hanging off it as I speed up dragging him till he fell off. They followed me to the main road as the Price Club was a little ways back off the main one, but not far from a populated area where I went to a gas station to call the police.
Would I have used my gun if one or any had breached the door? You betcha. No remorse. How did I feel? Pissed off! I was so angry the Dobie was cowering at my feet. Not because of the ass holes, but because of my anger. I was swearing and shouting as all I could think as they tried to get in – was if I shoot one of these punks the headlines would read a black woman shoots young white military recruits and their mamma’s on the news wailing they didn’t need to be shoot, they were good boys from wonderful families and my life would be changed forever.
That’s quite a story. But probably not that out of the ordinary, meaning, a women alone traveling by herself and drunk men with bad intent. Glad to hear you had the wherewithal to get yourself to a safer environment. Your story is the perfect example for women to be carrying, especially NOW.
it shouldn’t be that way, but it is.
[Harry Callahan has to explain why he shot a man]
Harry Callahan: Well, when an adult male is chasing a female with intent to commit rape, I shoot the bastard. That’s my policy.
The Mayor: Intent? How did you establish that?
Harry Callahan: When a naked man is chasing a woman through an alley with a butcher’s knife and a hard-on, I figure he isn’t out collecting for the Red Cross!
[walks out of the room]
The Mayor: He’s got a point
I don’t want to ever shoot anyone. I don’t carry a gun outside my home. But if a sorry son of a bitch breaks in my house, If I get the chance I will shoot him.
After it hits the fan I’ll shoot anyone who tries to break into my house. I’ll warn them first but if they come in I’ll shoot to kill. I don’t plan on going outside except to dump 5 gallon buckets of waste. I’ll go out at night. I’ll wear night vision goggles and carry a shotgun. I’ll shoot anyone who tries to get within 20 feet of me. I’ll stay in my house. Me and someone else will take turns being awake and armed 24-7.
I’ve become such a callous old woman at 41 years old that yes, I beleive I could shoot someone if I had to. The only thing that would make me hesitate is that I live in California and I’d probably be the one doing jail time for it…
Judged by 12 or carried by 6!
(Even in the land of fruits & nuts) 😉
The “he needed killin” defense doesn’t seem to fly over here.
Oh, one more thing. If you break into somebody’s house, you take your life into your hands. You risks getting your fucking brains blown out.
And to you fucking democrat liberal dick wads, listen up! If someone breaks in someones house, he deserves to get shot. Fuck you Michael Dukakis, Jesse Jackson, john Kerry, Algore and the rest.
Bravo! +1
That was the best rant I have heard all day!
strong and bold with a touch of disgust on the front side,
Quickly followed by hints of turrets, with a sharp lib bashing finish.
Slick Spectator, gives this one a 93
Enjoy now until next thread
it’s a trick question, answer it the right way and you’ll have visiters at 2AM and they will not knock.
Thats when YOU’LL KNOW.
KRS 503.080 Protection of Property (Castle Doctrine)
(1) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when the defendant believes that such force is immediately necessary to prevent:
(a) The commission of criminal trespass, robbery, burglary, or other felony involving the use of FORCE, …
(2) The use of deadly physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable under subsection (1) only when the defendant believes that the person against whom such FORCE is used is:
(b) Committing or attempting to commit a burglary, robbery, or other felony involving the use of FORCE, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055, of such dwelling.
Well, now the author and Mac are correct in asking: who defines FORCE??
Scared now??
We do.
you also make it so there is no story from the other side
I’m not really worried here in Ky—lots just disappear in those ravines and miles and miles of woods—or those closed mines.
No jobs here but lots of places to hide bodies.
While I note a lot of “yes” of course and incredulous response I will tell you all: Until that moment you do not know. You may think you know, and most of you will in self defense but there are many that will freeze. Does anyone remember the Civilian Rifle program they ran in the late 50’s and into the early 70’s in our schools? Why they ran it? It was due to a group of American soldiers shot in their barracks in Korea during our conflict there. They learned that the training received at basic was not enough to make a man get out of his bunk and grab his weapon and defend himself in such an event. The soldiers died with rifles nearby, some loaded, and not one was obtained by a soldier while they were being shot by the enemy.
TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN….I love the 22LR because I can blow through 200 rounds for $5.
I remember that program, I was part of it, shot for many years in one of the local elementary’s gym. I than went on to league shooting and “other training”
With that deal you ran up on I would say so! Right place at the right time.
Good article. Good answers. Yes for me. I’m not going to own or carry a weapon if I can’t use it. Like others, I wouldn’t enjoy it but I’d rather be sad than dead.
Like my father told me since I was a little child, Aim for the head that way there is only 1 story for the police, mine.
Not only could I shoot an intruder intent on harming my family, but I would enjoy it. Hell, I’d probably overkill.
Anybody who has a gun, has the will to use it. Otherwise, why have one. Avoidance IS your best bet for survival. However, being backed into a corner by a life threatening advisary, kill or be killed, we all would fight for our lives.
Here is kinda how it works in NY state. This happened quite recently. Just goes goes to show you that you may escape legal consequences if you are righteous, but not civil ones. As far as I believe the homeowner was never charged with a crime, not sure how the civil thing is going for him.
http://www.buffalonews.com/city/article40876.ece
http://www.buffalonews.com/city/article313145.ece
“he was a good citizen” means he didn’t have a criminal record for shoplifting or some other non-violent crime. but that way of thinking is how they have disarmed more than 5 million Americans for the rest of their lives. I guess if you have a non-violent criminal record. you have no legal right to defend yourselves against an intruder, whether he wears a badge or not. If you got caught with medical marijuana. you lose your right to have a gun, even though you have never hurt anyone in your life. This is just one way to put us at a disadvantage when the SHTF
To get over the aversion of shooting another human I suggest going to your local paintball field. It is not the exact same thing. But when someone is shooying at you, you will be able to have a similar type physical reaction in a safe but well simulated environment.
In time those physical reactions will weaken and you can think your way through what you are doing and fix your mistakes. It is a form of practice,like going to the range to practice site picture, and you have to pull the trigger on a human.
go take a Surez International rifle or pistol course… the have ’em all over the country…they’ll get that self-doubting, gun-fearing, morally confused liberal sissy out of your OODA loop in a day guaranteed.
A gun is a tool to defend your life, family and property….not a moral statement.
Cimerian is right a paint ball engagement can not hurt. I’d follow it up with 200 rounds of 22 LR at least 4x a year. You can do that for less than $20 for a brick of 22LR and have some left over for SHTF.
Practice, Practice, Practice, Train, Train, Train. Without it you have a piece of metal you think you can use. And despite what the anti gun crowd says guns don’t kill people – people do.
Okay, I have written about this before but not so in-depth so here goes.
Had a commercial vehicle break-in at my warehouse. Little shits stole all but one thing out of the truck. As GC calls them, called the “corp”. Cops take a report and try to finger print the vehicle. 2 nights later, another one of my commercial vehicles is broken into. I do the same thing, call the cops. This time however, I tell the cops I am going to spend some nights down at my warehouse and see if I can catch the little SOB’s. They said fine, go for it. I set up a bed in the office. I went to Home Depot and purchased a motion detector that I wired to a radio that would wake me up if someone was wandering around in the parking area. Sure as hell, two nights later the radio goes off at 3:00am. I get up and see one guy breaking into my truck and another guy casing the offices next to mine. I wake the wife and she calls the “corp”! I grab my shotgun and wait at the door. It’s so dark that I can stand at the glass with my nose on it and the purps can’t see me. I reach down and ever so slowly unlock the lock, but it makes a small “click”. The one perp hears something but he doesn’t know what it was. Then he goes over to the guy in the truck, they spend a few seconds there and decide to leave. All this time my wife is on the phone with the cops giving them a blow by blow description of what’s transpiring. Just when we thought the perps were leaving, they turn around and make a B-line for my door. Bad mistake!! I kick the door open, step outside in their face as I am racking a round into the shotgun and start screaming, down on the ground! Two to three steps backward and they hit the ground. Cops show up and arrest the thugs. Both had been wanted for other crimes and spent time in the slammer.
To answer the question above, if they had taken one step forward towards me instead of stepping back and hitting the ground, toast, plain and simple. If they had run away, they would have gotten away.
Let me put a spin on the question: What if the intruder had a small child with them, looking for food.
Could you shoot them then?
I think the demeaner of the situation would be completely different , and you would know it right off the bat
unless its a complete SHTF senario where the kid is used as a tool to gain access..
Shooting is when life or limb is at stake. Your question is to vague. I would not simply shoot an intruder. With that said, I MUST assume at that given moment that they have intruded my space and are a grave threat since they would not be there otherwise. I would not know they were looking for food or looking to do harm.
What I can tell you is this, decisions are made in a heart beat in these situations. The wrong response will cost you your life or the life of another human. It is a very tough call and one that must be made without hesitation.
I believe that most here do not want to ever have to make the choice. I also believe that most here are level headed people and would do what they had to do to protect themselves and their loved ones.
That’s not fair…but as I stated today on another blog..we are not the savior of this people.
Don’t feel guilty because you sacrificed to save supplies, food, water, ammo, weapons, medical supplies giving up entertainment, new clothes, dining out, hair cuts, cable, any tv, (we don’t have an antennae), gifts for others, new cars, vacations , …the list is exhausting. They were warned just by shopping for groceries.
Peace.
only if they were violent, but I’d end up with another child to care for, but I don’t see that kind of situation becoming violent, so I’d have to set 2 more places for dinner…
This woman needs a shrink and has absolutely no business writing about self-defense! Doesn’t anybody screen these articles before they are posted? GOOD GRIEF!
i could easily shoot a person anytime over hurting an animal that is biting me. i will never kill an animal and will not use deadly force unless they break into my house, i will tell them to lay down and if they move at me they are done. bone will fracture splinter bad and will badmouth them as they die. im a much faster pistol shooter than many navy seals, military etc. im not bragging but will defend old people neighbors people in general if shtf. i will not feel sorry and if it did come to this im sure a lot of bad people will die and there wont be time to do an investigation if thousands of people are being killed during shtf. think about it, they physically would not be able to take all the cases and chaos going on at that time. good people will continue and bad people will move on to another world. take care of the good. and let those that hurt or cause pain to others to go away for good.
My wife & I have had CHL’s for 20+ years…& we do carry.
Have shotguns at home for inside the home protection.
While I hope I never have to shoot another human…
if there is any instance where we need to protect ourselves or property from criminal attack….the bad guys are toast. No question. No hesitation. If I need to use deadly force….then you will be dead. I’m not goiung to try to wing you. Two in the head one in the chest. Then I’ll sleep like a baby. If you ahve any doubt that you can shoot someone to protect yourself….then either get training….or get rid of the gun.
Montgomery County Texas
As for the inbtruder with small child….As I have my S&W 40 pointed at adults head & I say leave or die…..
they have a choice. Either way they are going to leave….. one way they leave my property…the other they leave this world…..They make the decision….
I’m just the referee…
Montgomery County Texas
What?
Is this question supposed to be a joke or something?
Man, if my dog even barks in the middle of the night, I’m putting 30 rounds of hot .308 through the bedroom floorboards.
yes
I suppose that it would depend upon the intruder’s race.
You only shoot rapists and murdurers of a particular race?
Aren’t you just a fine fellow. Please note my sarcasm.
Reset button…
I guess I am confused…..what does race have to do with it ? I’m just an old WASP……but I don’t care what race or sex someone is…either today …or in SHTF.
There are good and evil in every category. I have been in sales for 30+ years….& met all kinds. I have friends that are White, Black, Brown, Yellow,…hell I even have a couple Democrats that I like…..
However I don’t give a flip what category you are in…
if you break into my house / property….you are going to have a bad day……& I’m going to have to clean up the mess. The warnings on my front & back doors clearly state that “The owner of this property is armed….& there is nothing inside worth dying for…”
Also….after SHTF….it would be a great way to collect intel as to has what & where by using women & children to get people to let their guard down. The terrorists have been using this for years. if you let them inside…they they cazn get a count of how many people you have inside…..so they know what they need to overcome in an attack. Never show your had as to numbers, supplies, weapons,….or that you have a soft spot. It will get you killed.
Montgomery County Texas
RIP Steve. Call me from the far side.
God Bless Steve, RIP man
Gaye,thank you for your article and honesty that you have struggled with this issue because I also have the same struggle. I have had very little exposure to guns and realize I need to overcome this challenge but not sure how. I liked Cimerian’s suggestion, it was a good idea.
As someone above stated, no one really knows what they would do in a particular situation unless they have actually been in that situation. Since I have not, I’ll say that I have very little doubt that I could shoot to kill. (I was brought up in the South and my told taught me that there is no other kind of shooting if someone is in your home).
Sadly, up here across the border my access to weapons is limited, so I’ve had to rethink home defense. Most of our options are close-contact. 🙁
Yeah, we gotta beat the ba5tard to death with a table leg.
‘Secuze me, gotta go reload estrogen.
Diana ~
Swords make a lovely collectable to hang on your wall. It’s important in Canada that you not have these items as self-defense items, since you are just supposed to welcome criminals with a hug and a cup of coffee. But swords are quite decorative and can fall into the category of “I just grabbed the closest thing at hand, Officer.”
Plus, a crazy chick in her PJs running at you with a Viking broadsword would have to be a bit alarming, right?
bow and arrows, pepper spray, you still have options.
Life its a gift from G*d, and refusal to defend it tantamount to suicide.
Anyone who would seek to harm me or mine has forfeit theirs. Besides – if I let them free then I am responsible for their subsequent murders as well!
Those discussing warning shots/beanbags, etc are deluded!
You may only shoot in self-defense WHEN IN FEAR OF DEATH OR GREAT BODILY HARM! Try to imagine yourself in court: “I was in fear for my life so I fired a warning shot/beanbag/etc……”
It doesn’t add up!
If you MUST shoot, you shoot TO STOP THE THREAT!
If he dies, OH WELL!
Also, anyone using “7-shot” its looking to DIE! IT DOESN’T PENETRATE!
Slugs, or buck – that’s IT!
7Oz shot for in the home defense..it wont go thru walls..and kill your kid..buck shot will
7Oz at 10 to 15 feet..and how I aim..with one shot there wont be nothing north of the belly button
I wanna see the load that’s got 7 oz. of shot in it. 20mm cannon, maybe?
Under 25ft there is virtually no difference between #9 shot and buck or a slug. At 50ft You’re still good with most sizes under #8. At 100ft you better have #4s (or BBs). I like #2, about halfway between BBs and #4. (BB loads are darn hard to find…) past 100ft BBs and #2 are still good but not very deadly. After 100ft is where buck and slugs are best. Find the longest shot in your house and load accordingly. Mine is 40ft.
The nice thing about using birdshot (6, 7 1/2, 8 and 9) (or even my favorite, #2s) inside is there is virtually no chance if it penetrating the house and traveling to your neighbors and doing anything more than breaking a window.
00 buck and slug loads will penetrate a lot. If you’re out in the country, like me, the nearest house is 400ft away, through trees and across a holler, use what you want. If you’re in the city you better be using something that the walls will stop or you’ll be in court for damage to someone’s home.
Personally, if you used buck or a slug and it hit *MY* house, I’d try to get the prosecutor to add that to the charges of the intruder that caused you to shoot, if he were still alive. Then, you and I would come to some kind of agreement to replace my window/tire/roof/etc. My thinking is that if I have to lose a few shingles or a tire for you to lay out a criminal, its a fair trade (after all, he could have come back the next night and hit my place) and good advertisement: STAY OUT OF THIS NEIGHBORHOOD. I think I’d put a sign on my front lawn that says:
WARNING: TO ALL WOULD BE THIEVES AND CROOKS – MY NEIGHBOR JUST PUT ONE OF YOU GUYS IN THE GROUND RECENTLY. HE’S GIVING ME LESSONS.
Someone down the line mentioned that it would be a different story if someone was stealing food to survive and they had kids. They better act humble when I catch them. They might get a good meal and a 2 liter of wheat. If they act indignant and threatening, they’re dead, kids or no kids. Bad thing is that means I just adopted the kids. I’ll never shoot a kid unless (s)he has a gun. If you’re old enough to handle a gun, you no longer qualify for the kid exemption.
Oh, and if your slug or buck hurt or killed a family member, I figure you’ll torture yourself enough, I won’t need to have you prosecuted because you’ll spend the rest of your life trying to make it up to me.
Just to add to your post. I had a number of great uncles that fought in WWII and one stated that the hardest part is that they had to kill women and children. Because as soon as they turned around they would be shooting at the soldiers. If someone has a children, hopefully they’ll think better then to steal food. Begging is sad, and may be hard to do, but no where in the same category as stealing.
NetRanger:
Gotta add that penetration depends on what the perp is wearing. For those of us in colder climates, a heavy winter coat will keep #9 shot from penetrating into critical organs. There’s a good site out there for which shotgun shell is best for home defense. Sorry, I don’t have the link and I’ve got to get to work, but they recommend #1 buckshot.
Mal
“I was in fear for my life so I fired a warning shot/beanbag/etc……”— it does if you are the Portland Police Bureau.
EH is turd bait!
What is this Mac? Some survey? My answer is yes to the title question.
Oh, and YES. I COULD AND WOULD SHOOT, and I wouldn’t lose a moment’s sleep our miss a meal over it either.
It would bother me MORE to shoot a mad dog, because it’s not the dog’s fault – a HUMAN, OTOH, made a conscious decision to be a verminous criminal!
Nope – I wouldn’t even think twice!
One in the chest or balls…then one to the head.
Break into my home…and invade my life… then I’ll do my thing.
I have weapons in every room ready to go.
Not that i desire to harm my fellow man, but in a shtf situation the stupid would fair poorly in my presence,if it is just me i would try to evade,there is also the chance that wounding would be an option,take out the legs with a 12 guage, but the intentional harming of a women or child would call for severe action. At that point i will merely see it as judgement.
I am Santini, the Great Santini.
I come from behind the moon, out of the dark, unannounced.
Watch out!
It is sad thought that things may come to shooting ohter people just to survive. But we have a better choice.
FIGHT THE CAUSE – NOT THE SYMPTOM
OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 – The Smart Revolution)
If you don’t have the willpower to protect your family and property, then you should move to Canada with the other sheeple. Or put a sign in your yard, “Sheeple Inside”, so the rest of us know where to get more supplies when the SHTF.
Forgot the replacement carpet. Thanks.
I might get confused if confronted in my home by intruders and having to use deadly force….between my FN five-seven and the Glock 22 on my nightstand, and the AR-15 with 30-round mag between the nightstand and the bed….I might have a second’s pause which weapon to use before I crouch in my pre-destined home-defense ambush position (cuts-off intruder egress to the kid’s rooms while fatally funneling the asshole(s) into a hallway) and wait for them to have me take their lives.
I figure if they got past the doorlocks, the alarm system, my dogs barking, the neighbors dogs barking and actually finding their way to the bedrooms….I just have to oblige them and take their lives with no regret or remorse.
In a SHTF situation my decision is to be purely defensive. I prepped ahead of time so I don’t have to enter a riot to find food and supplies and so that I don’t have to take things from others. If the enemy comes to me with the intent to take my family’s food and security….to attack and steal from from my neighbors…to pillage and burn my neighborhood thereby making it unlivable…to poison my water or pilfer the copper and metal fittings from my home or neighbor’s homes….then heck yeah I will shoot them like the rabids dawgs that they will already have become by that point.
If they don’t loot…then don’t shoot.
If you have not seen the movie “the Postman”….I reccomend it. This has been out for several years. It is a story of what the country turns into after nuclear war. How towns banded to gther for protection from the bands of roving psychos. Food, & security are the main things that people need. Food for thought….what things could be like after SHTF.
Montgomery County Texas
As I recall the mainstream surviving population had no firearms which made them vulnerable to the militants in the movie….wonder if TPTB had confiscated all weapons from the populace before the bomb got dropped leaving the remnants defenseless against the criminal whorde.
Fuck that shit….I’ll bury every hi-cap mag and assault weapon I have before I’ll let the fed find ’em and ship them to the Mexican drug cartels.
anyone see the old Patrick Swayze movie “Red Dawn”
I love all of the tough talk on here. I don’t think you know until it actually happens. In a SHTF scenario, I don’t think it would be one intruder. It would be MANY…say six or seven? Hell, let’s go with 20+. Are you willing to take down 20 or so intruders? Is your SG willing to do that much to ensure your survival? How many in your party are going to be taken out in this FF? What happens if you get shot? I love how everyone thinks they are invincible. We must have a ton of heavy operators in here eh?. I want to know how you are going to defend yourself against paramilitary scum who know what they are doing and are intent on “taking your shit”. I guarentee you that you will have your hands full and you WILL NOT know what to do in that situation. Bullets flying, shotguns blasting, a long range gunner picking off targets, molotov cocktails flying at your retreat. Yah, you are all REALLY prepared and tough guys on “The SHTF Plan” website but I want to know how you deal with it when it happens. I would LOVE to talk to some of you after such an attack. You think taking a life is easy? You think you will sleep at night? You think that whole experience won’t change you? Think again internet tough guys and rethink your plans and preps. There are folks out there who want what you have and are prepared to take it with lethal and ultimate force. You might want to ask yourself if you are prepared for that scenario. If not, I suggest you rethink your security plan. Cuz’ if/when the shit really hits the fan, you will find out soon enough in the coming weeks after an event if you are really prepared. Til then, let me know how that works out for you and keep the “tough talk” coming, I get a kick out of it.
I’ve got hi-cap mags and a bump-fire stock making my AR full-auto equivalent…If it’s between me and the 20 and my family is at stake I’ll sell my life dearly before they get their hands on my family or my preps.
If you find yourself facing a group of 20 post-SHTF, they caught you by suprise and they are already hungry and have a plan to take you down then you’re SOL and you can’t balme anyone but yourself for your predicament.
BTW….I had to draw my concealed firearm on two hood rats in North Houston just a couple of weeks ago when my car broke down in a bad part of town. It was scary and it was my first time in such a predicament….but I would have shot them plain and simple had the older one of the two heard me click my safety off and saw me at the ready…
God’s Cremation:
A) Ever wonder how many guys/gals on this site are current or ex-military/law enforcement? They know they’re not invincible. But they’re trained and know how to fight. There’s nothing wrong with confidence. It helps to keep the fear in the pit of your stomach and not all over the floor.
B) “Para-military units want my preps?” Oh, gosh. Along with 10,000 other people. But you have to know I’m prepping first. And I still think it’s safer to be prepared and not out there scavenging for food with 100,000 rabidly insane hungry people.
C) And I get a kick out you too. Keep sitting in your ivory tower and posting here. Your stupidity makes me laugh.
Mal
Fuck you.
I am retired Army and I prep as well but I am not as delusional as some people on this website. I am actually trying to work with my neighbors and get a plan for our area if/when things get really bad. Would it not be easier to try and work with one another to figure things out? Isn’t that what being an American is all about in the first place? Or is it, I got mine and you didn’t prepare so I am going to put a round in your gray matter for being an unprepared dot. I love the hypocrisy. Half of the people on here rail against liberals and their selfish attitudes but would stoop to their level if someone actualy needed help. In a scenario, I can see a lot of paranoid trigger happy jackoffs who just want to waste people because those people are not prepared. Half of these people think they can pull the trigger on someone and go to sleep at night and sleep like a bay. I am here to tell you that it ain’t that easy. I rue the day that I would actually have to take someone’s life, I don’t care how much of a scumbag he is, misguided or not, I will make sure I am certain with my aim. I hope I am never confronted with it. I will keep shooting my pistols and rifles until then so that I may be prepared to make the ultimate decision. I would hate it if it ever came to that point.
But you go ahead….you go be Rambo and blat away. Some of us actually think about our actions.
Well some of US are Tough! Maybe not all the Key-board commandos, but you have thousands of Vets, that have had their “Ass in the Grass”..Nobody knows if they”ll Pull the Trigger until that Time Comes, and If you generally say its no problem.Its going to be a problem!I was trained by the Marines, but schooled by”Charlie” We had a saying in the Marines, “Don”t let your Hummingbird Mind overload your Alligator Ass” Train Prep Pray
Semper Fi
Who’s going to do this if not me?
Got militia?
Hamas was all-terrorist at one time. They discovered that running elementary schools and distributing food to the hungry made more support than killing “the enemy”. Call them Communists or Freedom Fighters, whatever. Their politics are not subtle, but they NEED the support of the people.
We will learns these same lessons soon enough. But, remember that violent defense is the core mission for a man with a family in a dangerous place. Militia is a group of family men doing what they can.
I don’t see much “tough talk” in this comments section. Mostly fact and determination.
Enjoy.
just 2 thoughts—we got neighbors to out-flank them and—who’s first? Point is, better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
dead looters don’t loot…..dead rapists don’t rape….dead killers can’t kill again…dead robbers no longer steal….
After TSHTF our society will no longer be wealthy or tolerant enough to support and try to rehabilitate this kind of behavior.
It will be a sad day when it happens…but I believe that once the riots start and good citizens start shooting looters, criminals, burglars etc. en masse (there are millions of felons and would-be felons walking our streets right now) that the law is going to look the other way…
@ Death N Taxes
Yes…..you are right ! The hardest part would be deciding which firearm would be best to dispatch the bad guys. I wonder if Eric Holder has any of the Fast & Furious pieces left that he wants to sell???? Maybe I could get a deal on a Barrett 50 cal….
Montgomery County Texas
rest in pieces eh?
Sounds like God’s Cremation is trying to cast his or her self-doubt and fear of terminal decision-making onto the rest of us.
Methinks they never served in the military.
You would be wrong.
not the first time….
@ Gods Cremation
Been there donbe that, go the t-shirt. Done search & rescue for years. Have seen more death than I ever wanted to. at one time the sights would get to me, then there is the aweful smell. Now I can smell something dead in the woods & tell you if it an animal or a human. I have located people that died in Hurricanes, Floods, Space Shuttle explosions, suicides that have been rotting in 90 degrees in the Sam Houston Forest for a week,& more. It’s an ugly job…but a way that I give back to my community by helping to provide closure to the families. After years of practice….I can handle just about anything. The smell is still sometimes the worst…but some Vics Vapor Rub in each nostril helps control that. But when it comes down to my life…( or family / friends) & some f-ing looser that is a threat…..there is no question. Don’t believe me……I can prove it. Just break into my house tonight ! I have to warn you that this is a one time offer………
Montgomery County Texas
Center body mass. Tap-tap. Check surroundings and evaluate for further threats. None? Good – be sure to waste a bullet on the corpse.
Your goddamn right I will…I happen to be a sheepdog…if the wolf comes a knocking I have teeth too and I have sheep to look after.
@ Death N Taxes
Ha Ha…..I like it…. “rest in pieces……”
Can I use that?
I’m sure it will come in handy sooner or later !
The problem with a lot of the foks that are critical of us is that they have never served anywhere. They are happy to take all they can get from society…but it never occurs to them to give anything back. They are the same sort that will be able to justify that they have the right to “take” what ever they want when things go bad…..while never doing anything to prepare for themselves. I will help out when I can at church & the local food bank. On a more local scale I will be giving out free lead to anyone who is truly deserving.
Stay Safe.
Montgomnery County Texas
Go ahead…another good one I picked up from this blog the other day is:
“If voting actually worked, they’d outlaw THAT too”
wish I could credit that person.
Appleseed shoot in Davilla Texas on October 22-23. Check out the facts at http://www.RWVA.org
Lotta vets there, lotta preppers, lotta shooting practice, zero politics and a retelling of the opening shots of the Revolutionary War at Lexington Green.
The author’s realization that he/she probably would not be able to take a life and would probably lose theirs’ and their family’s in the process is actually good for them. This gives them the chance, if they have not already, to start forming a SHTF community (with security), so as to greatly diminish the chances that they will have to take a life (that is security’s job), until they have had a chance to see what life will be like and what “those” people are really capable of, what they will do to others who cannot defend themselves. I think that seeing these things, seeing what “combat”/post SHTF life is like, perhaps their resolve to protect themselves and others will change.
I agree….if they live long enough…
@ D N T
Yes….I know what you mean. I used to only carry sometimes if I was going to be in an Indistrial part of Houston. Now I try to carry every day. What part of Houston do you love ?
Hey Mac…..how do we come up with a way for fellow preppers to know the rest are located ? Before going into battle…..it is always good to have a fallback position. I would be willing for fellow preppers to dig in here if they needed to bug out from the more urban locations….or just as a stopover on the way to their BOP. Any ideas ?
Live…..I typed live ! I hate auto correct sometimes .
I’m in Sugar Land. I can personally relate to the death thing….I was a x-ray tech in San Diego for the USN and I moonlighted at SHARP trauma center on the side to make some real money….
At SHARP we got the GSW’s, MVA’s, stabilized the burns, stabbings, de-glovings, stabilized the pediatrics, the rapes, the self-inflicted suicides (failed and successful, the assaulted who lived and died, the active-duty ammunition “errors” etc.
At Balboa Hospital I got to x-ray the corpses of the dead helo and F-18 pilots who put it in the ocean as well as their Marine cargo….always after they spent a couple of weeks underwater and came up like half-eaten soaked biscuts.
Death is an ugly thing and God has his rules about us mortals entering into his domain….(see Rodef on Wikipedia) but a justifiable killing to defend yourself or another innocent from being killed is AOK according to Jewish law upon which all Christian civilization is based.
We should link-up…
@ D N T
On look the other way. I can tell you that after Katrina doing SAR in New Orleans that there were shallow graves found…..that were obviously done after the flooding. We tried alerting law enforcement & were told that every body recovered was going to be listed as a storm fatality……no murders or investigations as to cause of death. If they were lucky they would be identified….but that was it. The law will be up to their ears…..and they will not be looking for more work to do. The criminals will find out that there will be not be years of trials & appeals. The sentence will be carried out swiftly.
Montgomery County Texas
http://volokh.com/2009/10/29/funny-sign/
We can all try this sign in our yards…..or not.
Yes, and Hell yes. Without hesitation, remorse or regret, if someone is threatening me or my kids.
Yes!
All I would feel is recoil!
Depends on how hot she is.
I once shot a man just for snoring too loud.
You must be a lawyer too.
You’re full of shit Pal!
Absolutely.
Better to be tried by 12 than carried out by six
If you think you can’t kill someone get a snub-nosed .38 and load it with shot shells. Unless you shoot someone at point-blank range you won’t kill them but if you shoot ’em full of shot they’ll damn sure leave you alone.
People don’t like to leak.
Heh, heh, no they don’t. They don’t like that loud noise either, especially if they don’t have a noisemaker of their own.
I am a gun owner. However, the hesitancy to shoot is a concern, and per my state trooper neighbor, could be fatal. At the present time, I own bear spray, just in the event there are any criminal “bears” that want to get into my house. The benefit is that, as it is non-lethal, I would be unhesitant to use it, plus the distance and spray pattern is MUCH greater than the measely human stuff. There are also expedient things one could use, such as a fire extinguisher. To the nay sayers re. the latter, I say see how well you do if you role play attempting to attack someone spraying you with a fire extinguisher. All this doesn’t replace guns, but at present, before SHTF, these are good options. The taking of a life made in the image of God is a dreadful thing, but there are times of extremity it may need to be done.
One other thing. There are some non-lethal rounds, like beanbag rounds, etc., that you can get from http://www.cheaperthandirt.com. You’d have to check your state laws, but even in the People’s Thugocracy of Obama’s Illinois, I think they are legal.
Done it from the air and the ground, so the answer to “Will I”? was decided decades ago. This question was presented as an “after” the SHTF scenario right, so why all the concern of state and local laws and other niceties? A real SHTF event will be chaotic, fast, furious and brutal, and if you are not ready nor capable to deal with that, you better reconsider your defense locale, posture and purpose in the likelihood. At least, bond yourself with those who will and can, or make acceptance with rape, robbery and murder of your loved ones and/or self.
yes, i could and without batting an eyelash.
Yes, and I would do it instantly and with no reservations whatsoever. (I have prior military service to thank for that.) A criminal will not hesitate, and your hesitation will get you shot – that’s the reason that “good guys” lose in a gunfight. While you’re thinking about it, the other guy is laughing and pulling the trigger. Multiple times.
1st of all gotta say, I love this crowd! (except for g’s cremation) second in response to cremation guy, its not about getting them all. never was about that. Its about gettin a few of them standin next to you on judgement day! I would rateher go before GOD with a few bad guys I collected on the way than with a urine stain in my pants!
Interesting that this is written by a survival expert. Maybe not much experience in survival after all. About 10 years ago I bought a small farm and raise animals, and they are killed all the time. I hate to see them suffer, on rare occasion that happens and it saddens me, but when it comes time to kill a cow a bullet goes right into it’s head, and instant death results. I’ve never killed anyone and hope to never do that, but if someone came into my house I would kill them instantly on the spot without hesitation–bullet straight into the head just like the last black angus that got put down. It’s very quick, and I would not hesitate. If I hadn’t owned this farm and had this experience, it might be a different story.
Well, I have just scanned replies so far… that was refreshing !!
Gentlemen, Ladies – we probably have at most about 4-18months if that, to get as ready as we can be for whats coming. With a serious lot of prep and much luck some of us will make thru to quieter times. This means storing (& cycling) food & water supplies, weapons, ammo, a lot of range time and getting your mindset qued around the fact that millions will not make it and those millions will likely get very desparate at the end or after 28days or so into a SHTF event. Mindset, weapons, training and planning will be the only things between you and the wolf at the door.
An MD level boss recently fired put it this way the other day – the Govt gets $2 trillion in tax revenue a year, but spends upwards of $3.5tril creating a new debt of ~$1.5tril. $400 billion of this is interest payments on offshore loans. Just a few % pts increase will make that $400bil will jump up along with creditcard rates and we can kiss goodbye to a consumer driven economy. The Govt also runs the printing presses 24hrs a day making the dollar intrinsically worth less each hour. This is utterly unsustainable.
BUT there will NOT be any solutions coming out of Washington between now and 2012 and no matter who wins. The Govt cannot cut spending by a trillion a year as its impact would be too harsh and political suicide. The trap is set, the dice have been rolled and the trajectory is locked in.
The only thing keeping the wolf from the door is the fact that we are still the prettiest horse in the glue factory and after Europe fails then our turn will come. House values will reset to around 1985 levels and any personal debt held will be painful. The dollar will slide and banks will not open. ATMs will empty out in minutes.
Step up your plans and prep ASAP, think gold, silver and barter items too – 223 or 22lr maybe good choices.
B3K.
Thanks Brad–for reminding this nation—3 working families CAN NOT continue to support 7 non-working families..it isn’t feasible or smart.
The CONgress cares not about the debt–they are passing this on to your children..mortgaging their futures with debt we are already drowning in.
I say push the damn ‘reset’ button–it’s too late to deal with the issue, but too early to shoot the bastards isn’t working anymore.
There will be blood.
“Neither would revenge for something that happened yesterday.”
Say that after someone you loved has been brutally murdered.
“He who hesitates is ______” you fill in the blank.
I must be a sociopath because I would have absolutely no hesitation or remorse for using deadly force if the situation arose. Six years in the military trained me well enough in handling weapons and the last 30+ years of witnessing the societal decline has prepared me to not have a second thought about waxing some thug that intends to harm me or my family (or anyone that is defenseless).
I always carry a Colt .380 in my pocket and if I’m going somewhere that is a known danger zone, I take one of my .45’s too.
I sleep with a DA .45 with Tritium night sights and have extra magazines on the night stand and on the dresser and in the shoulder holster hanging on the back of the door – that’s my bed pistol. For after TSHTF, I have pairs of .45’s for Zone I defense, both autos and revolvers and I practice with both hands and both eyes.
There is something “primal instinct” about taking a human life that is a huge adrenaline rush. Had some trouble sleeping after the first time, but it had more to do with how close I came to getting waxed, life flashing before me, thinking about the wife and kids and such in a blink of an eye was quite unsettling and really turned on the will to survive.
I hope Gaye Levy is never faced with a situation where she has to deliberate with herself before she can make a decision whether or not to use deadly force. There may not be enough time to reach the right decision. In all of the animal kingdom (except for perhaps humans) Fight or Flight is a reflex, and the decision to use deadly force needs to be a reflex in order to survive.
All self defense instructors teach that you must match your opponent’s force as the second rule after avoid conflict. Tasers, knives, sprays, clubs, bats, spears, arrows, fists, elbows, tears, sobbing, begging, etc. are not a match to a firearm. A poorly placed shot may only be enough to piss off a big thug. If you don’t shoot them in the right place even multiple times, they may likely have enough left in them to wax you before they bleed out. The scenes you see in the movies of the one shot to the gut kill is all Hollywood make believe.
Prosecutor: “Why did you shoot the assailant 8 times?”
Defendant: “Because the gun only holds 8 rounds.”
This is a bit off topic, but I’d love to know – Has anyone else had the experience in action situations where it seemed like everything was in slow motion? After pulling the trigger you could see the bullet leaving the muzzle and see the smoke roll away, see the bolt move back and the cartridge gently lofting off while the bolt travels back to seat the next round while you just seem to wait and wait for the hammer to drop to fire the next round?
I have experianced the Slow-Mo thing, but it wasnt in shooting someone or thing, it was in an accident..very strange, and that in itself will stick with you for some time
The slow motion thing happened to me in the situation I described above. Very strange!
me too—in a car accident. I saw the windshield coming at me until a white screen turned to darkness…I woke up with my head busted open.
“If SHTF, Could You and Would You Shoot Someone?”
With pleasure. 🙂
I find you in my house.
You dead!
Shit IS hiting the fan.
Why is this site ignoring “Occupy Wallstreet”? The mobs are happening, the police are swinging billy clubs, shit IS hitting the fan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfX2kTOf5DQ
These protests are going nationwide, it is all coming down.
Because they are staged, instigated by the PTB that would love to have all us at each others’ throats screaming, fighting???
Separate by racial and class warfare issues—we’re stronger to fight ‘them’ as a whole, not divided by race, politics, and religious issues.
We’re all gonna get ‘there’ regardless of who we are, what we have, and how we got it..
Stay focused—know the enemy and it ain’t us!!!
Peace.
Done it already, and I will do it again without
hesitation. And I think most would as well.
Mirbach…..I didn’t go through the whole slo-mo thing. I was running towards the target and fired from 40′ or so. What I did experience though was when I brought the my Glock 22 to eye level for a snap shot, was that my Glock seemed to be 3 or 4 times bigger than normal, a “hand cannon” if you will. I can still picture it in my mind 5 years later.
If someone is threatening my family, your damn right I could, and would!
“Yes.” – Mal Reynolds, spring of ’94
Next question.
Have a great day!
Mal
I’d like to brag that I would pull the trigger but I don’t know if I would pull the trigger for sure. Knowing myself now, I probably would not, but if the SHTF scenario unfolds with violent twists, I would incorporate a preparatory hour of ‘Faces of Death’ on YouTube, guess I need to put that on a DVD in case the internet is down…hmmm… guess I can do that without watching it…
Cleaning up would be a mess, I need to check my states ‘Castle Doctrine’, I would rather make the mess outside if at all legal.
Oh! I have had bullets go past my head just a few inches away before! Whoa! I certainly wouldn’t want to stop one of them things with my body! I’m pretty sure if young future thugs were taken to a range and put behind a steel cutout and have a few shots sent past their ears, they would become doctors and engineers!
Pvt. Joker: How can you shoot innocent women and children like that?
Helicopter gunner: It’s easy. You just don’t lead them as much. You see, anyone that runs, is V.C. Anyone that stands still is well disciplined V.C. Ain’t war hell?
Without Hesitation! No other thought would cross my mind but… Kill that (those) motherfucker(s)!
Words of wisdom
If you own a gun, you will appreciate this. If not, you should get one and learn how to use it.
Shooting Advice:
Cops carry guns to protect themselves, not to protect you.
Never let someone or thing that threatens you get inside arm’s length and never say “I’ve got a gun”. If you feel you need to use deadly force for heaven’s sake let the first sound they hear be the safety clicking off, and they shouldn’t have time to hear anything after that if you are doing your job.
‘The average response time of a 911 call is over 23 minutes, the response time of a .44 magnum is 1400 feet per second.’
“The most important rule in a gunfight is: Always win – and cheat if necessary.”
“Don’t forget, incoming fire has the right of way.”
“Make your attacker advance through a wall of bullets. You may get killed with your own gun, but he’ll have to beat you to death with it, cause it’s going to be empty.”
“If you’re not shooting’, you should be loading’. If you’re not loading’, you should be moving’, if you’re not moving’, someone’s going to cut your head off and put it on a stick.”
“When you reload in low light encounters, don’t put your flashlight in your back pocket.. If you light yourself up, you’ll look like an angel or the tooth fairy… and you’re going to be one of ’em pretty soon.”
“Do something. It may be wrong, but do something.”
“Shoot what’s available, as long as it’s available, until something else becomes available.”
“If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That’s ridiculous. If you have a gun, what in the h*** do you have to be paranoid for?
“Don’t shoot fast, unless you also shoot good.”
“You can say ‘stop’ or ‘alto’ or use any other word you think will work, but I’ve found that a large bore muzzle pointed at someone’s head is pretty much the universal language.”
“You have the rest of your life to solve your problems. How long you live depends on how well you do it.”
“You cannot save the planet, but you may be able to save yourself and your family.”
Ive seen this copied and pasted on this site before, I even copied and pasted it once too..that was probably a year or so back and I got some nasty comments..I didnt let them get to me, because everything that is in this writing is dead on
VRF:
One of my military buddies sent it to me, it was the first time that I’ve seen it. I thought it was cool so I copied it and thought I’ed shared it with you all.
I though some of the content was worth re-posting.
Semper Fi… to all my fellow Marines
absolutly, and keeping it fresh in our memories, thanks for re-posting..it needs to be constantly brought up and drummed in
Like It! 🙂 Good Job!
I saved a copy of the text to make a poster for my wall.
Anyone who thinks they can’t or won’t shoot someone who has intent to harm your or yours should watch “Saving Private Ryan”. At one point Tom Hank’s men release a captured German soldier who later on kills some of those same men, one with a knife, slowly, in the chest. Put yourself in their place. You sure you wouldn’t or couldn’t shoot someone intent on harming you or yours now?
Stopping someone who you think means you harm is difficult. At the instant of combat you cannot be thinking of killing, but of personal safety – your mind set must be to react not to think. You cannot think it out Just do it. you are overthinking the situation.
As the old saying goes “There’s nothing I can tell you about combat that you won’t learn in the first five seconds”. All you have to do is survive those seconds.
To convince yourself that you cannot, is to deny the basic human instinct to survive and is not true to yourself or those who depend on you.
Lots of good comments and views on this subject. For those that are worried about losing their sole firearm to “evidence” in a shooting, I have a possible solution. Make friend with other gun owners and have an agreement in place for someone to sell you a replacement for $1. As long as it is a legal private sale, you can sell it back when your piece is returned. The police can not confiscate all your guns unless you are charged with a felony. Get a lawyer and sue if they step out of line at all.Of course in a SHTF situation there will be no police to deal with.After hurricaine Andrew friends of mine were told by the cops to leave any unlucky intruders at the curb for later pickup.Got to love guys like that.
Good advice although in my state (not sure of others) you cannot have someone elses pistol..it has to be registered to you, and there is way too much paperwork to go thru to play this type of game.
you should have more then one weapon, and more then one hand gun..just surrender the one they ask for, (the one you defended yourself with) dont say anything about any other arms you have..
when you get home strap on #2.
one of the worst things they can do is unarm a man that has been a target of crime..the perps know they take the toys away..your a sitting duck..dont be that sitting duck
be smarter then the establishment..if they run your registrations and it shows your other hand guns..start packing a short shot gun..or some other type of weapon thet doesnt require registration..and these registration rules will be different in some states..
all I have to register is a pistol..the remaining firearms dont require it…yet
~~~leave any unlucky intruders at the curb for later pickup~~~
Good answer!!
The “duty to retreat” idiocy that is legally mandated in non-Castle Doctrine states is a load of horse dung. If you live in a rural area and your home is invaded or attacked at 3:00 am in the dead of a subzero winter, do you and your family run outside into the snow in your bare feet and jammies? Perhaps not, but only if your assailants will be good enough to allow you some time to get dressed.
Further, the “duty to retreat” does not even address the other question of who you may run into once you get outside, since I know of no law that requires home invaders 1) to operate alone and 2) if operating in unison, for multiple home invaders to enter at once from the same route of ingress.
The final point to consider is that, in a SHTF situation, the objective of the home invader may be to take ALL of your stuff, including your home sanctuary itself. That would be tantamount to murdering you and everyone else in your family.
In closing I say phucque the robotic “trained” bureaucrats who wear state-issued costumes and tin trinkets with pin backs who would criminalize our natural right to survival, and who create equivalence between people minding their own business on the one hand, and thieves, murderers and rapists bent on mayhem on the other.
Phucque them royally, and this includes “confessing” to them afterwards that you protected your family. Anybody with common sense knows what to do when life is on the line.
Not long ago, someone posted some links for reinforcing doors. If you have info., please reply. Also, please add any things that could be applied to an apartment door.
Last weekend a young woman (mid 20’s and very attractive) had her door kicked in at 4 a.m. by a young man who wanted money for drugs. He assaulted her and dragged her (screaming) down the stairs to the parking lot. Her screaming woke up someone else up and they fought him off. Before leaving, the drugged man pulled a gun on them.
The apartment complex is in a nice section of the city and I heard a policeman even lives there.
Thankfully, no one was hurt. But, it is a scary “wake up” call.
At a minimum, replacing the silly short screws that are probably being used with the dead bolt strike plate with screws at least 2 inches long that go deeper could help.
There are door frame reinforcement plates available and improved doors and locks, but they can get expensive.
Secret panel can put Americans on “kill list’
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/05/us-cia-killlist-idUSTRE79475C20111005
Obamacare has a panel that will decide who get medical care and now we have a secret panel that can put Americans on a “kill list”
This is too scary for me.
Survival=tossing 1 gun between two people and say “Go for it”. It starts to sink in real fast who your friend is.
Why wait? Be the first kid on your block to ace a couple of crackheads. You get to choose between the brand X gun or the Glock. I choose Glock.
Careful where you step- there’s history all over the sidewalk…
Chet the News Anchor: ‘We now join our reporter, Bill Bigvoice, who just a few minutes ago, taped these interviews with the protesters on Wall Street…’
BB: Thanks, Chet. We’re here at the scene of the 23rd day of the historic Occupy Wall Street movement and we’re going to try to speak with some of the protesters…Excuse me sir, can you tell me exactly what you’re here to protest?
Teenager with green hair: Yeah, man. We’re here to show solidarity with all the little people. You know, it’s just that people are so fed up with the income inequality in America, and we wanna help that. We want the fat cats to share the wealth. And besides, this is such a historic thing, you know, to be here with all these people, and to really change the world. You know, it’s like- This Is History, and I wanted to be part of it!
BB:And what do you do for a living? Are you a student or…?
Green hair guy: Nah, man. I was last year. I was enrolled in junior college, but I decided to take a year off and get some real life experience. I been tryin’ to find a job, but it’s tough.
BB: How old are you, and are you from New York?
Green hair guy: I’m 19 and I live with my Mom out on Long Island. She’s a registered nurse.
BB:Thanks for your time. Now, let’s see if we can speak to this woman over here…excuse me miss, could you tell our viewers your name, where you’re from, and what it is that you’re here to protest about?
Girl with butterfly tattoo on forehead: (giggling) I’m Kendra, and this is my best friend Shaniqua. (points to girl with clipboard) We’re students at Simpleton University and we came all the way here to, you know, lend our support to this historic protest. It’s just so awesome! We’re gonna help change the world!
Shaniqua:(giggling) And we brought a petition for people to sign. This is just so incredible! To be here at this historic event, and to help make the world a better place for everybody! Plus, our professor said we can get class credit if we get lots of signatures. You want to sign our petition?
BB: What’s it for?
Shaniqua: It’s to force wall street to give back all the bailout money. And to force the big companies to pay their employees more. And to get the government to raise taxes on these big multinational corporations and make them pay their fair share. Oh, and to outlaw commercial fishing in Florida- you know the manatees are being wiped out down there.
Butterfly girl: C’mon. Sign the petition for us, Please? We’ve both signed it twice ourselves! Please?
BB: Well, I’m not registered to vote here, but, if you really want me to, I’ll sign it.
Shaniqua:(offers pen and clipboard) Oh, Thank you! You’re our 17th signer, well…counting the ones we signed.
BB: Thanks for speaking with us, ladies. Now lets move down the sidewalk…
Butterfly girl (to Shaniqua): What did he mean about registering to vote?…Oh, look! There’s Michael Moore! Let’s go get him to sign it!
BB:Excuse me sir. That’s quite a ponytail you have.
Ponytail guy: Been growin’ it since Woodstock, man. I aint never gonna cut this baby.
BB: Well, it certainly is long, and I notice it’s blonde at the bottom, but really gray on top.
Ponytail guy: Like I said, aint cut it since ’69. It used to be all blonde back when it was shorter, but, you know, life goes on, some of us get a little gray.
BB: Can you tell us where you’re from, and why you’ve come to the historic Occupy Wall Street event?
Ponytail guy: I’m from Kokomo Indiana. Used to work at the Studebaker plant there. But then the corporate bastards closed it down. I been unemployed for 47 years. And I mainly came here to, you know, just hang out in New York and help make history. I mean, this is gonna be far out when we take the system down! Serves ’em right, too. Greedy bastards been screwing the American worker for decades.
BB: Thanks for your time. (begins to walk away)
Ponytail guy: Yeah, no problem…and before you go can I get a cigarette from you?
BB: Sorry, I don’t smoke….Now let’s interview this man over here in the 3 piece suit…Pardon me sir. Are you with the protesters?
Well dressed man: Not exactly, sir. I’m here with my boss. He insisted on attending this historic festival.
BB: Your boss?
Well dressed man: Yes sir. I am the personal assistant to Mr. Reginald Snott, Chief Executive Officer of the Snott Pantyhose Company. That’s him, over there next to our chauffeur.(he points to a 23 yr old man wearing blue jeans, a tuxedo jacket and no shirt)
BB: Let’s see if he’ll talk to us…Excuse me, Mr. Snott-
Reginald: Just call me Reg. What can I do for you? (he stuffs a $100 bill in the announcers pocket)
BB: Well sir, er..Reg, can you tell us why you came to New York?
Reg: Certainly! I simply couldn’t let this historic occasion pass by without my participation and support. I’m here, representing the responsible corporate leaders of America. We simply must do more for the working people. That’s why I recently doubled the wages of all our employees! And I’ve implemented full health care at no cost to them. Plus they get one week paid vacation for each year with the company. I feel it’s the only fair way to run a business. I only wish more CEOs would be as compassionate.
BB: But, Reg, as a businessman you must know the importance of keeping the company solvent. How can you do that with the added expenses? Surely you didn’t operate this way when you first built up the business.
Reg: Oh, I didn’t start the company. I inherited it last year! It’s a wonderful company, and being CEO is so much more fun than I thought it would be! Besides we had 36 million in reserves last year, so I figure that will go a long way towards paying our fair share to the workers, and to the government. So, of course, I fully support President Obama’s higher corporate taxes. It is the right thing to do, after all….Oh, look! There’s Michael Moore! I simply MUST go speak to him…so long.
(he walks away and the chauffeur leans over and whispers to Bill Bigvoice)
Chauffeur: The company’s going into recievership next week. That idiot has burned through every dime already. We’ll be lucky to have enough gas in the limo to get back to Bridgeport.
BB: Sorry to hear that.(he hands the $100 bill to the chauffuer) And thanks for telling me. We’ll be sure and edit it out before broadcast. (BB turns to camera man) OK That’s a wrap. Now, lend me your cell phone. I need to call my broker. I got a ton of Snott Pantyhose stock to sell, quick!
Excellent description of those loser, Communist Hippies!
come in vertical leave horizontal
Shotguns with “Birdshot” Ammo would most likely do some serious damage without killing
Don’t bet on this at indoor room ranges. I responded to a call where a man was shot with a 12 ga. #6 bird shot shot at 16 feet, and the entry wound was only slightly larger than the 12 bore with a half dozen pepper #6 holes around it. The impact struck the right upper quadrant, and even though it was only #6’s, there was a small exit wound through his right shoulder blade. He died just after our arrival, and xray revealed a MASSIVE internal destruction with pellets acting both like a grenade after entering and one large solid projectile punching thru the bone. Even the wading had entered the skin.
yep , and like I said most home invasion distance to perp is less than 15′ on a norm.
with a pistol and you just being jared out of bed in the dark..if you get lucky you might hit him..I dont care for luck, i want a wall of lead flying their way..
Im very skilled with my hand guns, but i would want the odds stacked in my favor as much as possible
One round of #7 should have been followed by a racking of the shot gun and if the threat was even movin, another closer round of #7 should have been administrated
I have taken many tactical training excercizes…a tactical shot gun of the 18 to 20″ range is the ticket.
do an excercise..here is the layout
with a paint gun..the next time your dog awakes you, or you wake to hearing a sound..try to get up and sneak out and hit a moving target in your living room with it..
now imagine if that paint ball itself was 9″ or more in diameter.(the pattern size of a typ 870 with no choke at 15′).much better chances of hitting something..and its not going out your front window and hitting the neighbor standing in his drive way because he also heard your door get kicked in
bullets travel..even if they go thru something..you are responsible for it, until it stops.
close quarter combat will always love the shot gun..look at what the military is using to enter homes..AA12’s and other types of taactical shot guns
yes they do bring in the AR’s and AK’s but their intended purpose in the military is long range, and ability to go thru shit..thats not what you want in a home invironment..because when you go thru the wall and hit your kid hiding in that corner of his bed room, you just took out your own family with trying to defend them.
plus its a bit harder to wrestle a shot gun out of your grip, than it is to kick a hand gun out of your hand.
and when your shooting is over and the shot gun has done its job, you can walk up to the perp, and bash him once in the face as a calling card to his stupidity
18″ to 20″ typo
and 9″ diameter…typo
sorry.. i hit the’ instead of the”
plus another upside, most anyone can handle a shot gun and any one can buy one without a purchase permit, at least for now and at least for my state..
I am a pistol lover by preference, but have been training AR combat by necessity. Had an eye opening experience yesterday… Compare effectiveness of shotgun to pistol to AR. MY BELOVED PISTOL DID NOT COME OUT ON TOP. I would like to see how my pump would fare in this drill I did yesterday.
Its called the’Triple Two’ our something like that. Three small silhouettes, three feet between them, 14″square kill zones. Five yards away, begin from low ready, aka Taylor ready, with safety off. Timer beeps and engage at beep. Engage first target, then transition to the other two, in order. Fire two rounds into all three.
My results? 1.49 seconds was my best time, but two seconds was average. I ran it with my Glock 22, 1.78 was best time. Any misses nullify score. I recon to compare shotgun, one round on each target.
Long and short of it, I think the AR might be faster…. ?????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3ptmm8lAMM
That’s what I’m talkin’ about! Pay the f*&^%$# light bill!
Even the dim is get’n it!
I think he exploded. Second time was better, didn’t count the F bombs.
I think that’s a “yes” vote!
It’s simple. Come in my home, without an invitation and you will leave in a body bag…………………PERIOD!
Yup! Exactly. There should be no reason to debate this topic. You only have to kill them once, and you’ll be guaranteeing that they won’t come back later. the only problem I have with this is that it’s best to use a human body for garden fertilizer only if they are a vegetarian. Meat-eaters are not safe for fertilizing food crops.
This video is a must see for this topic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmpFBfqDwlU&feature=feedu
Could I shoot? What if? I was always told , in school, that there are no dumb questions. This article proved the teachers wrong.
Break it down simply. If a dog or more attacked a loved one, would this woman hesitate to shoot the animal? If yes, she is not to be listened to. If she answers no, then remember that attackers are like dogs/animals. Their intent is primal and instinctive, and they have no problem taking your life. Read the book of Jude, especially verse 9 and 10.
I can, and i will. There is a natural instinct in everyone of us. Every person has the ability to pull the trigger, we are born with it. Killing in cold blood is a learned trait, killing for survival is in you from day one. Everyone of you reading this post knows that, you can pretend all you want, but when presented with the right situation you will not let yourself or your family down.Remorse is different from person to person we all bear our crosses differently. My opinon is this- GOD gave me my two beautiful little girls and when he did he charged me with the job of protecting them. Im sure i would feel some type of guilt for taking another life but it would be short lived, as soon as i see there smiling faces I will be ok. I belieave that when a person violates your rights they forfiet theres.
I would have no problem shooting someone who poses a threat to my family or myself. All of my children are proficient with firearms. Even my youngest son who is now six knows how to handle a firearm and knows it is okay to use it in defense of himself or his family. I started teaching him how to use a firearm when he was four. He is a good marksman now, and with more practice he will be an expert. (and no, not BB or Pellet) his first rifle was a 22.
If you break into my house and I wake up in time to grab the nightstand gun – you will be shot until the threat is ended. A shotty is often too hard to get to, therefore a RELIABLE hi-cap pistol is my choice. 9mm because it’s easier to handle when groggy — if nothing else, it would allow me to get to the REAL firepower — a shotgun, a semi-auto rifle w/hi-cap mag, etc. For a home invasion, all you have to do (if you have the time) is squeeze the trigger.
I’m old, I can’t run, I no longer have the strength for any sort of hand to hand — just squeeze that trigger
Oh yeah — practice, practice, practice.
Always, always, always remember, “I want my lawyer”. To EVERY question. Don’t fall for the line, “Lawyer? Only people with something to hide want a lawyer.”
The same goes for searches.
More info here; http://justsaynotosearches.org/
No one knows for sure how they will react until they are faced with the situation in real life. The author is being honest. She really thinks she will not be able to shoot someone and is planning accordingly. Her plans may or may not work out for her, but no plan is guaranteed to work out.
I’ve spoken to my wife about this and her plan is to grab a can of wasp spray. I think she’s in trouble if I’m not home when an intruder comes. That’s problem #1. Problem #2 is if I am home will I be able to successfully defend it and her from evil doers. I have never faced a life threatening situation, so I’m not actually sure I will react successfully. I have firearms. I train with them. But until that moment, no one knows what they will do. I firmly believe training ups the odds of not freezing up and/or being able to put a round on target, but it does NOT guarantee a good result.
The author says she can’t shoot someone, but everyone has their breaking point. If you put a pistol in her hand and then start breaking the bones of her 10 year old daughter one by one, how many bones will you break before she’s had enough and pulls the trigger on you? I think everyone has a point where they will shoot someone, but it’s different for everyone and most people don’t know for sure where that point is. I think most of the posters in this forum have a pretty good idea, and there are obviously some who’ve already experienced that point, but I personally don’t know where mine is. I’m just prepping and hoping I don’t let my wife or myself down if the situation ever arises. One thing I always keep in mind is The Outlaw Jose Wales, when he says, “When things get tough and it looks bad for you, that’s when you have to get mean. Plum mad dog mean. Cause if you don’t, you neither live nor win.” I’m hoping I can remember that when the time comes.
Well Gaye, by the time you’ve started to mentally check off the first few conditions that must be met in YOUR mind, in order for you to “Make Sure” you’re doing the right thing, of the EXTENSIVE list that you’ve dreamed up for yourself so your “Civilized” psyche can revert to the instinctual level necessary to “win” your life back from those who would take it, you’ve ALREADY been killed because the ANIMALS that you will be facing have NO such compunctions. You will instantly become food so there is NO NEED for you OR any likeminded individuals to prepare for anything. To posit in THIS forum and try to tie up others minds with your musings is EXTREMELY counterproductive to those who would give your ideas even a passing glance. Also, I feel sorry that those you are responsible for are saddled with YOUR doubts, as they too will die. And more than likely, NOT in an easy manner. You yourself set the stage when you stated in the beginning of your treatise, “a true SHTF situation”. In such a situation, ALL the “Normal” concerns are out the window. This is NOT to say WE all revert to the level of the Barbarians we will be facing, but it IS to say that we will all HAVE to “ACT” Barbaric if the situation deteriorates to that level on a case by case basis. And before and after such situations, we will have to fight to maintain our “Civility” towards each other. We are perfectly capable of doing just that. People or your ilk are a major part of the problem that we are facing now. There is NOTHING “BAD” about “Good People” wanting to defend their families and possessions against those who would take either. This is EXACTLY why “BAD” is currently winning and we find ourselves in the predicament we are in. Because so many “Good” people are paralyzed with doubt about their position. The “Good” among us outnumber the “Bad” 10,000 to 1 yet we stand by and watch. WE CURRENTLY DO, AND FOREVER WILL, OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND. Make NO mistake about it. In a SHTF environment, who is to say that the simple possession that may be in question at THIS moment, won’t be MISSION CRITICAL an hour from now? YOU obviously have NEVER been in a situation where EVERY SINGLE THING around you has to be utilized or can be considered raw materials for something you might have to improvise or be used for barter to get something you need. People like YOU just want others to do what you consider your “Dirty Work” so you can claim, “I’m not responsible, they are”, and point your fingers at someone else.
To the GOOD and RIGHTEOUS out there reading this, prepare your mind in advance to do WHATEVER is needed at any given moment. Trust yourselves to recognize the signs instantly and act on them WITHOUT hesitation. If a fight to the death scenario unfolds and you are victorious, strip the possessions you might utilize from the bodies of those you have vanquished in the name of Goodness and hang their naked bodies from the trees around the perimeter of your secure area as a warning to others of their kind who would attempt what they attempted to do. Then go back to your families and sit down to a righteous dinner and give thanks to GOD for his help. Things will be REAL nasty for about 6 months but after that, we will be rid of them forever. LEVITICUS 26:8
“Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.”
It depends. If an intruder was trying to rape my wife, I’d blow his brains out without hesitation. If he was only trying to steal some food from my stockpile for his family, I’d only blow his legs off.
The thing is, you have to prepare, and by preparing I mean deer-hunting. I pretend each buck is a person before I shoot them. That way when a deer enters my house in the shape of a man, I’ll easily (even happily) pull the trigger.
Since when do you shoot a deer in the legs? You need to rethink things a bit.
Hey, Vlad, how do you know the guy isn’t your wife’s boyfriend, and you caught them unexpectedly? Maybe you are lousy in bed, and she found him for sex. Let the guy have his fun and let him leave peacefully. HAHAHA!
Hate to say it, but that is one of the most unwise statements I have seen in a while. First, how the heck are you going to know the intent of the intruder when he first enters? Second, while you are aiming for those moving legs, he/she is aiming for your center, and even if you hit first, he is still able to return fire from the floor. Then how do you know his accomplice isn’t entering seconds behind? Now you have one standing and one lying returning fire.
ALWAYS consider an uninvited intruder as a LIFE THREAT and be ready to kill him/her as fast as you can and everyone else who follows his lead. Otherwise, that food thief may decide to go ahead and rape your wife and daughter AFTER he has gained some strength from the food he stole in the first place. After all, you were an easy target then so why not next time. He’ll bring friends this go around.
WOOT there it iz!!!! Nailed it cop trainer guy!
Great….now you got aterial bllod pumping out averywhere……..your kids and wife are screaming….his friends outside are pounding on the walls and dor trying to get to him to help him and ooops you f’got to aks before you shot. Hey buddy….do you have any blooborne or transmissuible dieases……this while hepatitis C and HIV contamionated blood are sparying all over you family and you need to stop it but it’s getting in your mouth/nose now and that guy at the door is almost in and now the guy on the floor is reaching for his back pocket…..how fast can you get out of his reah? Bad idea.
Have you ever held a gun on anyone? I have and I didn’t like it. About 2am one night a drunk came into our building. He went into the unlocked landlady’s room, she was in her 80’s. I heard a shout and got my 22. He stumbled through the hall towards me. I closed and locked my door. He passed by and I opened my door again and trained the gun on him and yelled. He finally got the idea. He stumbled out. Later he was arrested, thought he was in his old girlfriends house. My buddy and nephew of the landlord was furious that I didn’t shoot him. Easy for them to say, he wasn’t being violent luckily, if he was i’d probably act diffrently. Until you are in that situation you do not know.
Rambo
Yes I have held a gun to someones head, I caught a man trying to break into my neighbors car late one night and the sound of the 12 gauge being racked caused him to piss his pants..Second time a homeless person trying to break in to home in my neighborhood, racking my ppk380 didn’t make him piss himself but he sure hit the ground fast. So I would have to say yes to shooting smomebody. But I also pray that I never have to take another life.
Like 1 of our sons said after his 1st tour ( Killing a person sounds easy, but until you have done it you never know the feeling after you do it and you will never be the same after its done.)
DPS
Anybody can kill when someone threatens their lives, or the lives of their family.
When not, they’re worthless human beings and member of the community in my opinion.
Here are two trained cops, and they missed with every bullet..
yes they caught him “later”..but not one hole in him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvP0xvs5DxE&feature=feedrec_grec_index
“Trained cops” LOL. Everyday Cops are some of the worst shots around! I have been a range officer and VP and XO of multiple gun clubs and weapons training centers through my decades, and all too often , our IDPA and IPSC matches have LEO participants who come in near or DEAD LAST! Some of these guys are horrendous, for they think riding around all day and WEARING a gun for duty makes them Annie Oakley. Several never fire their weapons for months at a time, but there are a rare few who practice monthly but poorly. Most just attend Q course once per year to keep their jobs and sidearms. Those sessions are child’s play.
Rule #1 – DO NOT talk to the police. Don’t say a word, shut up.
Rule #2 – If you do shoot someone, make sure that they are in your house when the police show up. Drag them in if necessary, then STFU.
The comment in the article that you do not have the obligation to flee is incorrect. In some states, such as Ohio, you have the obligation of avoidance. You are instructed in Conceled Carry Classes that the only way that you can legally shoot someone is if you are cornered and there is no way out.
When the toes of their 200.00 tennis shoes leave scuff marks from the gragging you just got charged and just because you lied, and therefore you must be lying about it all. Evidence tampering, or whatever they call it in your state ios almost always a felony. If thery ain’t entered into the house by breaking the “plane formed by the walls and doors” they are not yet a burglar. If they enter the spatter, I saw this on “Lawe and Order- the great pino cop show and I saw it on my county where somebody folloewed that ooled timey qauretrs advice and got charged. The shoot was good, the lie that was so unnecessary was not. All that Barber shop.beayt shop, honkey tonk advice is dangerous and has sent many people to jail. Forensis will gig you every time nowadays unless you are very lucky or incredibly smart. Just klet them come in then bust their ass.Just like that old igununt asses custom of shooting up in the air when you hear something oputside at night. Surprise when that cop . on a call come around the corner of your house and draws down on you cause you embraced another old hood/quarters BS legend. People with brains and no pressure are going to sit comforably on their asses and judge your actions of 10 second for 4 hours. Better get it right.
I know that I can kill someone in a SHTF scenario if the situation dictates that response. Mt life experiences confirm that I can do this……like many others have said….if you are not willing to take a life to protect yourself or a loved one then you are deadweight.
When shtf ,my house will be the one with a head on every fence post but one. stop in…