Collapse Medic: When Help Is NOT On The Way, The Buck Stops With You

by | Jun 30, 2012 | Emergency Preparedness | 176 comments

Do you LOVE America?


    This article has been generously contributed by Dr. Joseph Alton and Nurse Amy Alton of the Doom and Bloom Survival Medicine Web Site and appears in their book The Doom and Bloom Survival Medicine Handbook.

    When the “Buck” Stops With You
    The Doom and Bloom Survival Medicine Handbook – Preface
    By Dr. Bones and Nurse Amy

    Most outdoor medicine guides are intended to aid you in managing emergency situations in austere and remote locations. Certainly, modern medical care on an ocean voyage or wilderness hike is not readily available; even trips to the cities of underdeveloped countries may fit this category as well. There are medical srategies for these mostly short term scenarios that are widely published, and they are both reasonable and effective. An entire medical education system exists to deal with limited wilderness or disaster situations, and it is served by a growing industry of supplies and equipment.

    The basic premise of wilderness/disaster medicine is to:

    • Evaluate the injured or ill patient,
    • Stabilize their condition, and…
    • Transport the individual to the nearest modern hospital, clinic, or emergency care center.

    This series of steps makes perfect sense; you are not a physician and, somewhere, there are facilities that have a lot more technology than you have in your backpack. Your priority is to get the patient out of immediate danger and then ship them off; this will allow you to continue on your wilderness adventure.

    Transporting the injured person may be difficult to do (sometimes very difficult), but you still have the luxury of being able to “pass the buck” to those who have more knowledge, technology and supplies.

    One day, however, there may come a time when a pandemic, civil unrest or terrorist event may precipitate a situation where the miracle of modern medicine may be unavailable. Indeed, not only unavailable, but even to the point that the potential for access to modern facilities no longer exists. We refer to this type of scenario as a “collapse.” In a collapse, you will have more risk for illness and injury than on a hike in the woods, yet little or no hope of obtaining more advanced care than you, yourself, can provide. It’s not a matter of a few days without modern technology, such as after a hurricane or tornado. Help is NOT on the way; therefore, you have become the place where the “buck” stops for the foreseeable future, at least when it comes to your medical welfare.

    Few are prepared to deal with this harsh reality. To go further, very few are willing to even entertain the possibility that such a tremendous burden might be placed upon them. Even for those willing, there are few, if any, books that will consider this drastic turn of events.

    Almost all handbooks (some quite good) on wilderness survival will usually end a section with: “Go to the hospital immediately.” Although this is excellent advice for modern times, it won’t be very helpful in an uncertain future when the hospitals might all be out of commission. We only have to look at Hurricane Katrina in 2005 to know that even modern medical facilities may be useless if they are understaffed, under-supplied, and overcrowded.

    When you are the end of the line with regards to the medical well-being of your family or group, there are certain adjustments that have to be made. Medical supplies must be accumulated and expanded. Medical knowledge must be obtained and assimilated. These medical supplies and knowledge must then be adjusted to fit the mindset that you must adopt in a collapse: That things have changed for the long term, and that you are the sole medical resource when it comes to keeping your people healthy. As Theodore Roosevelt once said, “You must do what you can, with what you have, where you are.”

    This is a huge responsibility and many will decide that they cannot bear the burden of being in charge of the medical care of others. Others will find the fortitude to grit their teeth and wear the badge of collapse “medic.” These individuals may have some medical experience, but most will simply be fathers and mothers who understand that someone must be appointed to handle things when there are no doctors. If this reality first becomes apparent when a loved one becomes deathly ill, the likelihood that you will have the training and supplies needed to be an effective medical provider will be close to zero.

    This volume is meant to educate and prepare those who want to ensure the health of their loves ones. If you can absorb the information here, you will be better equipped to handle 90% of the emergencies that you will see in a power-down scenario.

    All the information contained in this book is meant for use in a post-apocalyptic setting, when modern medicine no longer exists. If your leg is broken in five places, it stands to reason that you’ll do better in an orthopedic hospital ward than if I make a splint out of two sticks and strips of my T-shirt. The strategies discussed here are not the most effective means of taking care of certain medical problems. They adhere to the philosophy that something is better than nothing; in a survival situation, this “something” might just get you through the storm.

    Hopefully, societal destabilization will never happen; if not, this book will still have its uses. Natural catastrophes will tax even the most advanced medical delivery systems. Medical personnel will be unlikely to be readily available to help you if they are dealing with mass casualty events. Even a few days without access to health care may be fatal in an emergency. The information provided here will be valuable while you are waiting for help to arrive.

    An important caveat: In most locales, the practice of medicine or dentistry without a license is against the law, and none of the recommendations in this book will protect you from liability if you implement them where there is a functioning government and legal system. Consider obtaining formal medical education if you want to become a healthcare provider in a pre-collapse society. All it takes is your time, energy and motivation.

    Although you will not be a physician after reading this volume, you will certainly be more of a medical asset to your family, group, or community than you were before. You will have:

    • Learned to think about what to do when today’s technology is no longer at your fingertips.
    • Considered preventative medicine and sanitation.
    • Looked at your environment to see what plants might have medicine value.
    • Put together a medical kit which, along with standard equipment, includes traditional medications and natural remedies.

    Most importantly, you will have become medically prepared to face the very uncertain future; and after all, isn’t that what you wanted accomplish when you first picked up this book?

    SHTFplan Editor’s Note: This article has been generously contributed by Dr. Joseph Alton (aka Dr. Bones) and Nurse Amy Alton (aka Nurse Amy). It appears in the Preface of The Doom and Bloom Survival Medicine Handbook.

    For those looking for a realistic overview of the medical emergencies and disaster scenarios we may face in a post-collapse world and how to keep your loved ones healthy and safe in the midst of crisis, the Altons’ Survival Medicine Handbook is an absolute must have for your preparedness library. (Our family has one on the shelf and one in our evac bag)

    You can also follow their regularly updated and very informative Doom and Bloom Web Site for topics covering a host of post-collapse emergency concerns and key medical issues you may run into. 

    In a situation where seconds count and medical help is hours or days away, there will be only one place to turn: yourself. We will all, undoubtedly, be faced with life threatening scenarios when law, order and our regular way of life breaks down. Some of those will include traumatic injuries to family members or friends – everything from gun shot wounds to viral infections.

    The buck will stop with you.

    Also See:

    The Doom and Bloom Hour – Weekly internet radio show discussing medical issues and emergency scenarios.

    Doom and Bloom Medical Supplies – Prepackaged emergency kits, supplies and training information.

    What to Expect When You’re Expecting…a Collapse [by Dr. Bones and Nurse Amy]


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      1. Next to food and water medical preparedness is the way to go!!

        • An excellent book to own

          Take care

          • hey guys i know this is totally off base but i need advice from my fellow preppers i was informed last night that i can no longer have a bumper sticker on my truck that says obama sucks i got it from local gun shop who said they got it from nra but my boss said a lady complained so if i dont remove it i’m fired any one have any thoughts on this by the way i drive for a pizza company my -papa- says itys the best

            • Times are tough. Keep your job. They can’t tell you what to think or how you vote. Document all conversations about it for later.

            • Hey, fallout. Since you use your car as part of your job you need to lose the bumper sticker if you want to keep the job. Your boss may agree with your politics, but pissing anyone off costs him/her money. After all, even stupid people eat pizza, and they may be offended if you insult their baby daddy.

              My wife worked for an elected official for many years, and she would not let me put any political bumper stickers on my truck for fear it would cause her problems at work. (Our offices were a block away from each other). I complied. Now we don’t have to work for anyone, so I can do what I want with my truck.

              So….the moral is, if you work for someone else you are not free. Save your money and plan wisely so one day you will have earned your freedom.

            • falloutboy, for the love of GOD, keep your bumper sticker! You are an American citizen and a human being and you have a GOD given right to have that bumper sticker. Please remember this:

              A) Obama is not a king, and we can say whatever we want about him. He doesn’t like it? Tough shit: we are free to feel and think and say what we like

              B) your boss is your boss, not your master; he has no damned right to tell you what you can have on your car

              C) This lady who complained is a miserable self righteous POS… you bring her food, and yet that’s not enough, she needs you to bend to HER whims and desires? Because you haven’t drunk the Kool Aid like her?

              D) This even assumes that there IS any “lady”….. perhaps your boss made it up just to see if he can force you to do what he wants

              E) In any event, I’d find a good lawyer, one who will stand up for the rights of a patriot. Do not take this lying down, not ever

              F) the second worst thing that can happen is that you have to get another job. The worst would be taking down your bumper sticker and keeping this one

              stand strong until freedom dawns

            • You are representing the pizza company when you deliver. A company has the right to request you not have stickers of any kind on your car no matter what they say or what the reason.

            • Ummm, let them fire you and visit them in court. They more than likely will say you can’t represent the company with that kind of statement on “your” car. Provide a company vehicle and I will not drive “my” car. If they say they will fire you tell them you will hear from my lawyer. Did they tell you you that when you were hired? Did they inspect your vehicle and tell you that in order to work here you will need to remove that bumper sticker? Their mistake that tey will have to pay for. I know the constitution does not stand for much lately but we still have free speech. Call a lawyer and tell him your situation first, If it makes you feel better. He will tell you that to go ahead and leave it, and, call me when they fire you.

            • Do they pay you for the use of your car, or require you to have their Company logo attached to the roof or side? Then you are acting as a company vehicle, if not then they can not require you to do so. But they can always find a reason to fire you.

            • tell em that this is a used to be a free country and the first amendment is still in place..for how much longer is debateable however the prick that is your boss should realise that he can be sued for all kinds of mental issues etc…(a good lawyer can come up with anything, besides you dont need to go to court, just scare your asshold boss with a threat to go to court. give him your lawyers phone number if he starts bein a dick and remind him that the 1st amendment is there not to protect the speech that we all like, its there to protect the speech that we dont like. your boss and everyone would do well to remember that!

          • Buy some seeds for medicinal plants for the garden. Read and learn about their uses. I have been able to get and grow all of these except tea tree.

            Here is a good article to get started.

            Top Ten Medicinal Herbs for a Survival Garden


        • The precursor for all this is keeping clean when things go south. Being able to keep your family free from infection and disease is step one.

          Agree that this information is excellent though.

          • Survivor Mike

            You are so right. Hygiene both personal and of the mediate surroundings is of paramount importance post collapse. No other medical procedures stand a chance in a filth laden environment.

            Take care

        • It was a good article. I don’t think the authors read the posting of the 28th. If they had there might been a bit more urgency to the article. I have two problems with it. One, it comes across as an advertisement for a disaster preparedness library. The thing is preparing on a limited budget, which I have to do, is a person can only buy so much supplies and books and training before the money runs out.The other is in a disaster situation, you gotta “suck it up.” I mean what choice do you have? The old basic first aid and EMT books dealt with basics. Today’s courses in emergency medicine, don’t. When I took EMT training when it first came out many many yrs ago, they told us if a doctor or nurse came on the scene and tried to take charge, we were told “let them.” Let them do the treating and transporting. What I’m trying to say is take technology away from hospitals and today’s EMT’s and they’re lost. If you are looking at a disaster scenerio, and I have, and also updated Emergency Opns Plans, look at the basics and go from there. If it is long term so be it. The problem presented in the article is not the equipment needed. It’s the mindset.

      2. Sorry I just assumed you already have a lifetime supply of guns and ammo, then food ect ect

        • Completely logical assumption!


          Who would be without guns & ammo..??

          • All those on this site that foolishly took all their weapons and ammo fishing with them!!

            • Stupidest thing I have ever done. I keep kicking myself for bringing all of mine on that canoe. I knew it was stupid but I did it anyway.

            • Yeah, I foolishly brought my entire stash of silver as well…why don’t we ever learn?

          • “Who would be without guns & ammo..??”

            Sheeple. :-/

            • Oh come off it 41mag, I’m not a sheeple, and I have no guns or ammo at all in my home. NONE! They were all STOLEN, and the little bastards sold them at the big church sponsored gun buy back up in Chicago. Then they took their 100 dollar gift cards and bought some malt liquor…then they bragged about it on YouTube. can you frigging believe the nerve ???

              stand strong until freedom dawns

            • I had all my ammo and weapons stolen as well

              Probably the same varmints that stole SonofSams

              It’s just not it..?

      3. Awsome information Dr. and Nurse Alton..This topic is for sure my ” weakest link”. I need to get up to speed on this topic and will most likely get the book mentioned.

        Thanks again.

        • Other good medical books are, “Where there is no doctor” and “Where there is no dentist”. Good knowledge for those of us that don’t have a title (M.D., D.D.S.) after their name.

      4. There is not going to be any help when the SHTF. You and your family are on their own. Learn everything you can on how to treat the injured and sick with what you have or will get while you can NOW. Get a mind set of what you will do if and when the injured and sick can not be helped, really think about this, WHAT AM I GOING TO DO. As for me and mine we will not let one another suffer peroid, I think you know what I mean. LEARN NOW WHAT TO DO! If you go, let it be quick. Thats just me.
        Live Free
        PS: A very good book

        • Yr dead on copperhead, but when I explain this stuff to the doubters and fence sitters, I don’t put it that way. What I generally say is: do you REALLY want to assume that there will ALWAYS be someone around to help you out? Short answer: you can’t! Don’t assume that, not ever. Maybe someone will help, maybe not. Maybe there will be people in authority who actually have your best interest at heart — not everyone in government is an asshole — or maybe they will use a crisis as an excuse to boss you around. Or maybe TPTB will find themselves so overwhelmed by what has happened that they are way too busy taking care of their own to give a rats ass what happens to you or yours. Just look at DC right now: they don’t have power there, and its going over 100 degrees again today. Lets say that Congress, the White House, and the lobbyists on K street were also without power: who do you think will get taken care of first? The big shots or the common person? Hmmmmm? Anybody???

          Bottom line: I am not a “survivor” or a “prepper”: I am an AMERICAN. I believe in being as self reliant as possible, simply because self reliance is a good thing in and of itself. Am 100% self reliant? nope, not there yet, gotta lot of work to do. Am I prepping and waiting for something to happen? Hell no: it has ALREADY HAPPENED! We are on our own, right now. Not tomorrow or next month or after the election or when TSHTF. Right now

          stand strong until freedom dawns

          • If those you mentioned have no power tomorrow, they will care less than the guy who works where they buy lunch because they get paid for not coming to work when the power is off. Many of them will ‘work from home’ at their second home on the beach.

      5. Can’t prep enough. Keep on prepping.

      6. This is one area where I wish I had more experience. I was a first responder so I have some training, and have treated third degree wounds, lacerations, etc., but mostly stabilized victims and have had little opportunity to perform minor surgery although I did purchase a complete surgery kit in case I can find someone with the skills and no tools.

        One tool we used to cut out of plywood that you may want to add to your equipment is a backboard and straps to secure them to it. They take up very little space and are of great help in moving a victim who cannot walk.

        • Good point PP. I would advise everyone to keep an aluminum ladder handy as a tool for carrying someone that can’t walk by themselves. If there are two fairly strong persons,one on each end, you could move someone to safety or out of the woods in case of sickness or injury. With a threaded 1 inch thick piece of steel rod about 20 inches long used as an axle, you can attach two bicycle wheels on one end of the ladder, and move a person around by yourself. You never know when you might have to have someone move yourself. It might come down to having to be traversed over wooded areas to get to medical help.

      7. This is the reason I learned herboligy 30 years ago….

        • With you dude.

          • It is amazing what you do in life, one way or another, that I was born with a bad right kidney, which led me to studying the old way of doing cures before there was doctors and pharmacies. I have cured many illnesses with the common sense way with natural plants, since all pharms, they were all derived from organic compounds to begin with…

            • Well as Ross Perot once said “I’m all ears” How do you do what you do? Do you have a book or a manual or a website? I ask because I’ve been gardening for 25 years now and I’m always looking for new stuff to grow

        • I totally agree. Frankly, we will be “thrown back” to nature if this modern medical indusutry fails. It will be the ONLY way we can treat what ails us. For thousands of years man has KNOWN nature has amzing cures for humans, it is ONLY because of modern medicine that NO ONE continued that RICH history of knowledge. I seek that lost knowledge everyday. My medicinal garden is nutured and cared for as if my life depends on it…and some day it MAY!! Get some herbal remedy books also, they are precious.

          We only care that our communities survive and thrive if some horrible issue arises.

          Nurse Amy, AKA Amy Alton, co-author of the Doom and Bloom Survival Medicine Handbook

          • You and your Hubby do a great job. We got your book last winter. Thanks for all you do.
            Don’t tell your M.D. husband, but Nurses are the best!

          • I have referred to “Back to Eden” by Jethro Kloss, many times. Cured gout with black cherries, Asthma with lobelia and peppermint tea, extreme poision ivy, sumac, and Aralia spinosa with the inner bark of a old sycamore tree brewed to a infusion the added to bath water and others. I am ready to be the doctor in my clan, with books in hand, because then we cannot “Google” it.
            Nurse Amy, thank you for an informative write up, I have felt the same for years the same as you do.

      8. In April I was in an airport and had lunch with an Army Medic while we waited for our flights. I asked him what the big changes were in the Army Medic program since the days of Pfc. Desmond Doss. He told me that they have several new equipment items but the most important life saving tool in their medic kit remains the same as what Pfc. Doss carried, the Tourniquet.

        • I wish thatwe had Quick-Clot in Viet Nam. It might have saved many of our guys.

      9. Also if you can only purchase 1 medical book I strongly suggest where there is no doctor. It is written in a way that a child can almost understand
        It and has very good information. Written for the third world it also gives treatments that most can apply. Can’t endorse it enough for beginners. Even as a well trained first responder I still have gained an excellent amount of knowledge from it.

        PP- whered you pick up the minor surgery kit. I’ve looked around and only have found high priced junk for lack of better words! Thanks.

        • I ordered mine on Ebay. After much looking I settled on a 70 Piece U.S. Military Stainless Steel Surgery Kit which appears to be of good quality, but could be total crap as I am no expert. Sutures and others items must be purchased separately. There was a surgeon in out mutual aid group that was to teach us emergency surgery, but he moved before we could get it scheduled.

          I believe Hesperian Health Guides still offers ‘Where There is No Doctor’ and ‘Where There is No Dentist’ free on their web site at:

      10. I purchased the following from :

        2012 CURRENT Medical Diagnosis & Treatment

        Diversified Health Occupations 4th edition

        BEHAVIORAL MEDICINE A Guide for Clinical Practice third edition

        Lippincott Manual of Nursing Practice ninth edition

        Dorland’s Illustrated Medical Dictionary 30th edition

        Knowledge is power. Gear Up & Good Luck

      11. I’m halfway through EMT basic. I’m not really learning what I had hoped to learn. The course does teach anatomy and physiology, but it is basically how to package a patient and take them to the hospital. Not going to do a lot of good in a SHTF situation.

        • Suthener, I feel you, EMT Basic is like the Combat Life Saver Course, and a lot of Army Medics nowadays are essentially taught to figure out if a casualty is worth saving, then stop bleeding, etc and move on, it’s gotten to a point where IV’s are probably in the advanced EMT courses.

        • Hey Suthener, I am a recently licensed Basic, so was in a similar situation not to long ago. Before I signed up for the class, I decided that no one else in my family would take the responsibility to become the collapse medic, should it happen, so I would take charge. You are quite right about the curriculum, it is called EMT-Basic for a reason. The real meat of prehospital(the goal is to get them to a hospital, of course) care comes in when you decide to commit and go to Paramedic school. After completing the course and obtaining a license, you can attend courses geared specifically towards wilderness medicine, from EMT-B through paramedic, nursing, and even M.D.s, and you need the corresponding license to attend. This is something I’m looking forward to doing, time/finances permitting. I also discovered that I really, REALLY, enjoy doing this, so I have motivation to continue. I completely understand where you are at now, but also remember that some training, even a little, is much better than none. My biggest concern right now is being able to afford the expensive equipment for my own use. I wish you good luck and don’t give up! I am also a first time commenter, your post was the first which inclined me to comment.

          • Good information to know. I have my First Aid/CPR/AED, certification. I am planning on joining my local volunteer service, and continuing on with the education, where I can afford to. I am purchasing my equipment just like I would anything else, piece by piece. I keep reading, and learning where I can. I live out in the middle of nowhere, and nearest ER is 20 miles! So, our volunteer squads get a bit more in depth training, since we are so far from medical facilities. And, as you found out, it is interesting to me as well, which motivates me to keep going with it. Good luck with your study!

          • Don’t overlook the first aid & first responder courses that are geared towards the wilderness environment. I recently completed a wilderness first aid course. It is NOT your Red Cross FA. It is stressed that once definitive care is more than 1 hour away (which defines a wilderness environment), whatever you can do, you should do.

            No you don’t get taught a great deal of ‘medicine’ but you are taught how to use the meds that are available to you in the situation at hand.

            And one thing that was also made clear, is that ‘wilderness’ can happen at any time. Fire, tornado, generic SHTF, once you’re outside the 1 hour window, things change.

        • “Not going to do a lot of good in a SHTF situation.”

          Maybe not but you do have to start somewhere and that sounds like a great start to me. Good job. Keep at it.

        • Sutherner

          I can see why you would feel like that but a good working knowledge of A&P will be a boon to you in the future. You will find yourself able to think around issues far more easily than you would have without that knowledge. You will consider the involvement of other structures and bodily functions far more readily than those who have no understanding of the internal workings of the body.

          Good luck with the rest of the course.

          Take care

      12. Tequila, reefer, hydrogen pyroxide, thread and needle, and bandaids have got me through a lot field surgeries (mostly performed on self)! Its amazing how often you slice yourself open in the construction field!

        • Don’t forget super glue, better than stitches!

          • I once nailed my left hand to a rafter whilst standing tippy toes on a ladder! If only the osha boys could have seen me :-)! Had to use my cats paw against my wrist to turn myself loose! Ouch!

            • Don’t forget, start the breathing, stop the bleeding, treat for shock!

            • From your previous post it was prolly because you were high!

          • I have used the super glue. There is a limit before it is a waste. In some cases we used it to add straight to the the sutures so we could get them out of the way. Saying you still need to now how to close. And in my case I am lucky pretty doesn’t count.

          • Chopulin

            Can you get product called Tisseal skin over there? It is a kind of superglue but it dries without the hard crust that super glue produces, makes it less likely to peel off so it lasts a bit longer. The set time is a little longer as well saving the embarrassment of gluing yourself to the patient.

            Before anyone asks, yes I have. Having my finger and thumb stuck to the surface of a firemans groin is something I have NEVER been allowed to forget. Obviously acetone could not be used to dissolve it so we went to theatre, me walking backwards along the corridor whilst he was wheeled on a gurney, my hand under the sheet that covered him which made him look, with the bulge my hand made like he was rather excited by the situation and I was assisting him with that! This was not helped by him shouting “oh yes, faster” as we moved through the hospital corridors. I must admit that at the time I did not find this as funny as everyone else did lol.

            Take care

            • Burt- I nominate your tale as the funniest thing ever seen on shtfplan! That was PRICELESS!

            • Burt – agree w. Okie – HILARIOUS!!

              That said, hilarity is (sometimes, and unfortunately) judged by those laughing. They are not usually the ones who have to deal with the unlucky application of SuperGlue.

              Seriously, thanks for sharing!

            • Burt:

              OMG, hysterical! Thank you for the laugh! I needed it. Thank you for sharing!

          • Tampons in an emergency are good too. They can plug a quarter size gunshot wound if you don’t have wound dressings ….. Unfortunately, small gunshot wounds often lead to an exit wound and if it was inflicted by something large caliber you’re in trouble.
            Also recommend sanitary pads ….. They are cheaper than buying some medical equvitents if you don’t have the cash.
            My med-kit consists of:
            Box of latex gloves
            Large quantity of wound dressings
            Stretch bandages to finally hold dressings in place
            Duck tape
            2 pairs of med scissors
            Half dozen foldable/maluable splints.
            Various small dressings, tape, gauze
            Suture kits, long nose pliers and tweezers
            Saline solution for cleaning, iodine and various antiseptic creams
            And I also have a few complete IV giving sets.
            That’s my minimum.

            I also carry some heavy duty tools next to my med kit for dealing with stuff that I might need to get to a casualty, that include:
            A carbon edged multi blade that’ll cut even mild steel, heavy duty knife, pliers and a have a three ton jack in the truck, that can be used to lift objects off ‘stuff’ cause remember not every medical emergency is going to be a cut finger or someone shot in the ass. I’ve also carried a repelling rope and harness in my veh for years too, but that’s a long story.

            The big thing is, I suggest people at the very least, go do a Red Cross first aid course and learn CPR and the very very basics ….. Minimum. Start at the bottom and work your way up.

        • Don’t forget the 190 grain alcohol. If it don’t kill the germs, it will kill the pain. Well, at least make it feel that way.

          • Smokin

            I thank you, but at the time I was so far removed from amused you have no idea. Every personally traumatic incident I have encountered in my 30 odd years ‘on the job’ has been down to a fireman, police officer or member of the armed forces. They target me I swear to God.

            I am amazed I am even moderately sane with some of the awful things they have done to me, you have no idea lol glad to entertain you after all the times your stories have entertained me.

            Take care

      13. Don’t forget to visit a farm supply store for antibiotics and syringes.

        • I was trying to post much more detailed information about the farm supply store, costs, shelf life etc, but someone or something would not let me post when I got specific. Tried 7 times. You’ll have to check it out for yourself.

          • @ SWIFT
            There’s a good article over at ,,truth is treason,, entitled Guide to Veterinary Drugs for Human Consumption Post-SHTF. It has links to vet antibiotics online. I also heard that government legislation is on the table to require scripts for vet meds so this option for antibiotics may not last for long.

            • @wheedle
              Good info. I was trying to post specifics due to sepsis in a SHTF scenario. Cuts must be treated. I encourage people not to waste money on the small bottles of iodine in health stores. I buy it but the gallon, cheap, to treat our animals and my own wounds. Anti-biotics are anti-biotics no matter how they are labeled. You are of course right about vet meds eventually needing a prescription. Anything the government can do to eliminate our chances of survival, is fair game to them. Make no mistake; it is a plan!

            • @wheedle… not good :(, if all else fails, befriend a doctor, get them into prepping, and end up a straw purchaser to meds, I’m sure SHTF will happen before they catch up to straw purchases on meds.

            • @ OathKeeper
              Nurse Amy commented that it was an excellent article, and that many pet antibiotics are the same prescribed by doctors for patients. Keep in mind this is a Post-SHTF option for people who choose to consider all contingencies.There are some other informative comments in the article mentioned. Good Luck

        • SWIFT

          I’m sure that you know that CAL VET suply sells “fish” antibiotics via the net.

          • I certainly have heard the name, but living in an Agricultural community, I can get anything I want with-in six miles. Good of you to post the info though. On another note; got any ideas about dental care? I’d love to hear about them.

        • Everyone – don’t forget first-aid supplies for your PETS! Antibiotics, vitamins, flea & tick treatment, toenail clippers, styptic powder, etc. These little fellers depend on us!

          • I no longer have pets. Now I only have livestock, but thanks for the reminder. BTW, a guy I know is trying to convince a surgeon from WVU to give us a course in emergency surgery or at least suturing. Contact me by clicking on my user name if you want to be invited.

      14. Thanks – just subscribed to their email list.

      15. @DieselDan :
        Where There Is No Doctor a village healthcare handbook, is part of my medical library too.
        Also include :
        Where There Is No Dentist

        Phlebotomy Worktext and Procedure Manual second edition

        Quick Medical Terminology a self-teaching guide 5th edition

        Stedman’s Medical Dictionary sixth edition
        It’s taken two years to gradually build up my medical library.Older editions are much cheaper than brand new and still provide a wealth of information. The most important part is read, read, read !

      16. Some common medical sayings that may be helpful:

        The first thing to do when you’re faced with trauma- take your own pulse.

        When you hear hoofbeats, look for horses, not zebras. (Think of common causes of problems first.)

        All bleeding stops eventually.

        If a patient with severe abdominal pain suddenly says their abdomen no longer hurts, their infected appendix has ruptured.

        Doctors tend to decrease the amount of blood loss by half when seeing it, bystanders tend to increase the amount of blood by half when seeing it. (People not experienced with seeing blood tend to over estimate the amount of blood loss.)

        Most patients get better with time.

        Soap and water and commonsense are the best disinfectants.

        And one especially applicable currently-
        Physicians and politicians resemble one another in this respect, that some defend the constitution and others destroy it.

        • Got to love it! “All bleeding stops eventually”. Too funny.

        • Me free

          Ultimately we all die from the same thing….lack of breath. Keeping someone breathing is the first step in any successful medical intervention.

          Take care

        • hmmm, but our illustrious “leader” and entourage will be celebrating the 4th in france… guess we’ll know on the 5th.

      17. To me one of the biggest dangers is people taking antibiotics who are ignorant about them. If you take the wrong kind you can wipe out the harmless bacteria in your system and the infection you’re trying to treat can overwhelm you. If you take antibiotics too often you can get infections that become immune to them.

        The vast majority of healthy adults won’t ever need antibiotics unless they break a bone and the bone goes through the skin. Then you’ll die without antibiotics.

        • Barn cat

          All antibiotics wipe out good bacteria to some extent. What is most important is to remember CYCLINE antibiotics, TETRACYCLINE, DEOXYCYCLINE etc become more and more toxic as they pass their expiry date. These drugs should NEVER be used after their expiry date.

          You are correct about antibiotic resistance but there are many cases other than compound fractures where antibiotics are required. Mouth abscesses can cause systemic poisoning if left untreated, contaminated wounds need antibiotics, the list of incidences that require antibiotics is very long, even in those who normally have good health.

          Bolstering your immune system with a good diet full of vitamins and minerals helps, but if pathogens are present, and multiplying antibiotics are essential to stop their spread.

          I totally agree they are overused by many, but not having them when they are needed is a death sentence

          Take care

          • A preventative alternative to antibiotics is OTC zinc. This remedy was passed on to me by my FIL (a retired pharmacist) over 20 years ago. I’ve recovered from all sorts of sinus, throat, and respiratory problems. As long as you catch it EARLY, you can treat anything from green mucus, a “spot” on your throat, even a wet cough and tight chest.

            Suck on a 30 – 50 mg. OTC zinc tablet 2 times a day. If I do this early enough, I RARELY need a second day of treatment. The zinc kills what ever infection that is trying to start. Stay within 150 mg. for an average adult to avoid zinc poisoning!

      18. Hey, Obamacare will take care you, free of charge, right? So who needs to know how to take care of themselves?

        The Marxist Federal Government already have all of your medical records. Can’t wait until they start mandatory Psych screenings for gun ownership and DNA samples so they can plan your diet and life.

        Now is the time to fight this, NOW!

        All it takes for evil to win is for good men to do nothing.

        • Jeff

          What kind of prices do you pay for over the counter generics over there? I ask because we have seen truly massive price drops recently in paracetamol (acetaminophen ) and ibruprofen, they are literally pennies a box. Oh and they have stopped selling large bottles and boxes of these incase we use them to kill ourselves, no I kid you not.

          Take care

      19. Thanks to Mac and Tess for posting the preface to our book “The Doom and Bloom Survival Medicine Handbook”. Even now, with the wildfires in the West and the freak storms and heat in the East, there is always the chance that modern medical care may not be at your fingertips. Get the beans and bullets, but don’t forget the bandages.

        Our book assumes that there is no modern medical care available, and that you’re the highest medical resource left to your family. We talk about all the likely issues you’ll encounter, and unlike other (often excellent) books (even Where There Is No Doctor), no chapter ends with “and get to the hospital as soon as you can”.

        Joe Alton, M.D. aka Dr. Bones

        • Dr. Bones, thanks again to you and Nurse Amy for allowing us to share this with the SHTFplan community. I can’t tell you how much more confident we are with the knowledge contained in your book – and the fact that we have it on hand in case of emergency.

          For our forum community, if you’re not ready to check out the book yet, definitely become a regular readed of the Doom and Gloom web site- some excellent material there on a regular basis – and the archives are essentially a medical program for off-grid survival.

          The takeaway for me from all of this is: There will be injuries and disease, and it will more than likely affect members of my family, friends and neighbors.

          Medical response is one of the Prep skills that most of us lack, so gather as much info now as possible. Download ebooks, print articles and save videos of treatments and procedures to a flash drive… because you never know.


          • Yep! Just ordered the book. Thanks!


        • Joe I’m glad you made that comment! Get to the hospital in a book made for people who have no hospital avail has always irritated the hell out of me. I look forward to reading your book and can give you a thanks now for the info I will surley obtain from it.

      20. I’m really blessed. A cute nurse just moved in next door.

        • Jim, I married one 31 years ago. No shit now, Nurses make great wives. They know about taking care of kids, they are usually smart and hard working. Also they make a pretty good wage.

          • I have been married to my nurse for 35 years. Great wife and she has worked in surgery for the last 20 years.

          • That might be true about taking care of kids and stuff, but when it comes to nurses taking care of their guy who’s come down with a serious case of …..”Man Flu” The sympathy gene that nurses usually have, to care for “their man” suddenly goes on vacation.
            Don’t woman realise how serious man flu is!!!???

        • Buy her new stockings/hat.

        • You could invite her over to play doctor…?

        • When I’m sick, I don’t care if she looks like Hilary Clinton,,,,,well,,,kinda,,,,sorta,, maybe.

      21. Get your hands on a EMT First Aid Book that is used teaching EMTs. Study it and it will increase your First Aid abilities.

        My son is an RN with a local Ambulance Service and for Father’s Day he gave me his 2012 EMT Manual he received at his EMT Refresher Course. It is the size of a deck of cards and fits very well in my First Aid gear.

        In the Air Force I was an Warskills/First Aid/EMT/Ambulance Instructor. We taught quite a few young medics.

        So this little booklet is great for organization and assessment prior to treatment.

        First Aids job is to evaluate ABC (Airway, Breathing, Circulation), treat the patient as best they can and then arrange for transportation. However, if the grid is down, roads are clogged or to far away – continuing treatment is your only option. That what those extra supplies/bandages are for that I advise you to put into your First Aid Kit.

      22. simple things are often overlooked i think we often look at shootings. but i think broken bones sorains fractures will be very likely. things like a rusty nail will be deadly. how to treat a spider bite like black widow or brown recluse wolf spisers. a snake bite. rats will be a really big prob and so will the spiders and snakes. all the unkept lawns will be a habitat for those nasty things. I have bo idea how to treat naturally a spider bite as i do not know of any books or sites with this info. Anyone have info on such things? How would you treat tetnus? Any resources on thiese things would be a wonderful help. Thanx and hope I addes some thought on things that we may be facing. I know there will be BIG situations ( Trauma etc) but I am thinking more common things that will be everday issues long term. ANy thoughts

        • Justincase

          I think you have made a very valid point. It will be many everyday things that ‘trip us up’ post collapse. I think the emphasis has to be prevention rather than cure if at all possible. Thinking now, and collecting information now on things we currently take for granted, like refuse collection, which will be a huge source of contamination post collapse is a wise thing to do.

          Acetaminophren kills snakes, just 80mg, the standard over the counter tablet contains 500mg so 1/4 of a tablet will be plenty for any snake.

          Rats and mice will happily take food contaminated with this drug, snakes will go where there is food for them, baiting the rodents with this drug will have a huge effect on lowering the snake population, it has been used extensively in Guam where the Tree snake population is out of control.

          Of course the snakes eating the rodents gets rid of a good amount of both creatures.

          Snake bites should be removed by suction only. Any other method risks pushing the venom further into the body. I know it is done in the movies but sucking out by mouth is not advisable in case you have any broken skin in your mouth that the venom could get into. You can use anything that has the ability to draw fluids up into it with a good amount of pressure, cupping, heating a glass, like a shot glass and putting it over the bite marks has shown some success, the skin is drawn up as a vacuum is created sucking out the venom as it does so. Rubber snake bite kits are available. You squeeze the air out, put it over the bite and let go causing the venom to be drawn out.

          I have no idea about the spider you name but can have a look around and see what I can find.

          Take care

      23. son just got his first aid merit badge….good for him, me and the wife…now i need to take a refresher course in first aid

      24. Modern medicine? ha thats a joke. Thats the main reason most people are dying. The big pharma playlers are killing you with their meds and their treatments are making you worse. Dumb sheeple, wake the hell up.

        • @Rock,

          I’m not sure where you get your information from, but as someone who served as an O.R. Tech myself and who has numerous Medical Professionals in their family, I can tell you that I think that you are dead wrong.

          Modern medicine is a blessing. Check out death rates 100 years ago, or in places like Africa today, and tell me that it’s a joke.

          Hell, better yet, the next time you, or one of your kids, gets an infection, try treating it yourself.

          Why don’t you wake the hell up yourself, you simple shit.

          • Jeff Davis

            I agree with you entirely. It is not a bad idea to know about alternative therapies and procedures for times when modern medicine cannot be accessed but whilst it can,it should be used.

            Prior to the advent of antibiotics, insulin and other therapies too numerous to mention the death rate from relatively simple medical issues was sky high compared to the rates we now experience.

            When ulcers have to be dug out without anaesthetic, children are dying from simple infections and pain cannot be alleviated, those that feel modern medicine is a downstep from the older forms of healing will have their words come back to haunt them.

            Take care

            • Burt,
              As I recall you are also in the Medical Profession as well. I wonder if people know, or care, just how hard we worked to get to where we are and how much “good” we all do on a regular basis.

              Hope all is well across the pond.

        • Rock

          I am surprised by your post, and surprised that so many agree with you if I am honest. Alternative treatments and therapies are good things to know, and many plants can indeed help in certain situations but they are ot a panacea.

          Modern anaesthetic drugs, anti-malarials, antibiotics et al save hundreds of thousands of lives a year. Without them even the simplistic medical issues stand a very good chance of becoming major medical issues.

          Big pharma is not ideal and some of their developments leave something to be desired, the bulk of them however have, in my opinion, been worthwhile saving a massive amount of disease, pain and suffering across the globe.

          Take care

          • Jeff Davis

            I am the UK version of an OR tech but spread my wings into major catastrophe, advanced life support, and clinical teaching.

            I think the majority of people know it is not an easy career choice but it was our choice and we made it. I understand fully that there will always be sceptics, and those that think a diet of tomato juice will kill everything from meningitis to cancer but on the whole people are realistic enough to know that this is not the case.

            All we can hope to do is make information available, pass on tips that we have found useful and that we know will work….and with everyone else hope and pray that we come out the other side of whatever befalls us.

            Things are hitting up here medically, lots of stuff being got ready in case something happens atte Olympics. I am not officially on duty for this, unofficially I will be based on and off at a hotel in Kings Cross with a full medical kit at my disposal. Hopefully none ofit will be used.

            Take care

            • @ Burt
              I don’t know how it is in England, but here in the U.S, it is illegal, ILLEGAL, for a Pharma or Medical device Rep’s or Companies to give ANYTHING to a Doctor or Hospital. Period. If you do, the FDA can shut you down!. Not even a pen or papper. No samples, no kickbacks.

              To say that the Medical Industry makes you sick is about as silly as a person saying that Exxon makes you car run out of gas, or MacDonalds makes you hungery.

              It’s called Capitalism. You see a market, risk capital to fill a need, make a profit.

        • In defense of Rock, I’m also not a fan of Big Pharma. This is not to say that some medications do not have their place. The strides we’ve made are fantastic.

          But sometimes, and I believe this is what Rock is getting at, Big Pharma kills a fly with a sledgehammer instead of a fly swat.

          Not every bad mood needs to be medicated. Yes, there is a place for psychiatric drugs, definitely, but doctors no longer know what that place is. Every other person is taking medication for a mood disorder when sometimes (note I said SOMETIMES) a simple change in diet or habits can effect a positive change.

          Not all ill-behaved children need to be medicated. Sometimes they need a smack on the butt, sometimes they need to be taught alternative ways to learn and focus and sometimes they just need a better outlet for their energy.

          Not every ache and pain requires a lifelong prescription treatment. Instead of taking the acid reflux drugs that are of late being proven to cause bowel issues like diverticulitis, adjust the diet, try herbal remedies, drink more water.

          Obviously there are things that we should not go without. Insulin dependent diabetics need insulin (although diet can help a great deal with this), anaphylactic allergic reactions require a stab with an epipen, infections need antibiotics.

          But Big Pharma presumes too much over nature. They are in it for the money – they want us to be hooked on their products like junkies in a crackhouse.

          People need to research what they are putting into their bodies and locate that fine line – popping a pill is not ALWAYS the answer.

          • Oh – and no disrespect is intended towards our medical professionals with that post – the negativity is ONLY towards the pharmaceutical industry. I am very respectful of the knowledge you possess!

            • Daisy

              Thank you lol

              Take care

          • Daisy

            I agree with what you say regarding over medication. I have to say though, if the doctors didn’t prescribe it the foothold big pharma have would be massively reduced.

            The kickbacks to doctors for prescribing certain drugs needs to be stopped, again this would go a good way to reducing not only the amount spent on drugs, but would reduce consumption amongst the public, reducing dependence and also antibiotic resistance in many cases.

            Take care

            • Burt ~

              Can you explain how the kickbacks work? Are the doctors basically getting commission for the pharma companies for prescribing X instead of the older and less expensive Y?

              That just sounds like a recipe for corruption and pharmaceutically-biased healthcare.

              Thanks in advance!

          • @Daisy,
            Reread his post. “Modern Healthcare is a Joke”?

            How much medical training do you have? Besides being a patient, how much time have you spent in a Hospital? You really seem to know a great deal about Pharma, have you ever worked for one. My Wife has for 16 years of her 35 year Nursing career.

            You are a busybody, who loves to jump into the middle of crap. I bet you also pick up every stray cat you see too.

            • Jeff ~

              I have no medical training, as I said, I greatly respect the knowledge that you medical professionals have. Nor do I have pharmaceutical training. I do spend time reviewing medical literature and studies for my job, which may be why I am familiar with the pharmaceuticals I mentioned. This definitely does not make me an expert but it has allowed me to form what I feel is an educated opinion.

              I simply expressed my opinion in a balanced way. I did not argue with you, belittle you, or put down your profession in any way. Now, I’ve politely answered your questions. I’m not debating whether or not I have the right to post my opinion.

            • Daisy

              Kickbacks work very simply. All the pharma reps visit the doctors, they all have similar products.
              Rep from company A gives out a few free pens and a couple of ad note pads, company name on, like the pens.

              Rep B is selling a very similar drug. He gives a couple of lens, a note pad or two and happens to drop in that the company are going to send their best MD tickets for the theatre as a ‘thank you’

              Who gets the order?

              Take care

            • Jeff

              Come on, we have had enough angst over the last few days. The doctors via big pharma do over prescribe, and they get kickbacks for doing it, not all but many. Maybe not in the US but they do over here.

              We come here so we can give our opinions on all matter of subjects. God knows I have been panned on a regular basis, most of the time I have not meant any offence at all, it got me to the stage where I wasn’t sure I was going to come back at all.

              I’m glad I did. I have learnt a great deal. I have come to realise, especially as a foreigner, that although we have many different views, we are for the most part here for the same reason.

              Daisy is a well respected member of this community, but like us she is entitled to her opinions, it is not personal, and before you say it, she and I are not related or in any other way entwined lol

              Only by asking and questioning do we learn, as a health care provider you know this.

              Any chance of a truce?

              Take care

            • Daisy and Burt,

              Sorry to burst your bubble, it’s illegal to give anything to a Doctor or Hospital. No bribes, no kickbacks, ILLEGAL.

              Maybe in England, not in the U.S., the FDA will shut you down, or the Salesperson will get fired.

          • Jeff

            Not even a pen with the logo of the company on? That’s way stricter than here, maybe this is more of a UK thing then, it never occurred to me that pens and note pads were considered as such, it is the norm here, hence me using it as an example.

            It’s obviously much better controlled over there than it is here. Thanks for pointing it out, it’s easy to apply knowledge of your bit of the system to the system as a whole and be way off the mark.

            Do you know how they police this? Is there something that our hospitals can learn about how to control it?

            Take care

            DAISY the kick back info applies to the UK.

      25. It may be helpful to read nursing textbooks, even older ones. Or particularly older ones as they discuss techniques not much used anymore. When I was taking microbiology a zillion years ago, I checked out a passel of nursing textbooks to augment my standard micro text. I found descriptions of how certain diseases cause changes in a patient odor and appearance. Flu could be recognized by an experienced nurse the instant she walked into a patient’s room. Bundles of instruments can be sterilized by several courses of heating, waiting a number of days(weeks?)and reheating. This kills spores as they develop over time. The nursing texts had better and more useful descriptions of the microbes and their real life impact than my micro text.

        • Jeff

          Sorry, I was talking general practitioners, doctors in surgeries who write up the bulk of prescriptions, and yes it is illegal here to but it still happens, several hospital procurement managers have lost their jobs through it, something I totally agree should happen. I have not heard of the sales reps being fired for it though which to mean seems to imply it is accepted practice.

          Take care

          • Burt,
            In the U.S. we have Avamed guidlines which are very strict. The Pacemaker company which my Dear wife worked for was fined over $20 million for kickbacks, which put an end to the practice.

            GP’s here can not even acccept a piece of paper with a company logo on it.

            • Jeff

              I am not sure why but that really surprises me, because I have never known any different I suppose. That’s one hell of a fine. I think it’s a good idea, you would know for sure that the doctor has no ulterior motive for scripting a particular drug. Does it work this way with equipment also? Sorry to be a pain with the questions but it is rare to get a tech from another country to talk to. All the big companies, Cardiocap, Intersurgical Vygon, Portex etc leave give always at the hospitals, just small stuff but eye catching with the company name on. The large third party agencies that supply ad hoc staff and equipment spend £10s of thousands a year on Christmas parties etc, I usually just chose a couple to go to based on how much fun I had last time lol

              It’s a very stark contrast, and I would miss the parties but I think your system is better.

              Take care

            • I’m questioning this ..I still have bags with logos from a dr of my parents at my daycare gave me stuff all the time from similac, other companies’ names from her job medical office.
              Where did the free scrips for my sinus infection from the dr. closet come from when I didn’t have health insurance??

      26. A little off subject here but did anybody notice the first editioncommandment of Hr 3200 section 2521 page 1000 of thethem affordable care actnow pertaining to medical rfid. Initially it stated that all Americans had to get the chip implant by march 2013. I dont see section 2521 in the revision and i dont know what to think about it. We need a write up on this one. I think its been oisted here.

        • Jay jay

          Over here I could tell you, but there I can’t, ask Jeff. Maybe the. Er rules regarding gifts to doctors came in after you had your stuff or else they were saved from an earlier time by the doc?

          Take care

      27. I have such a delay typing on here please excuse my grammar.

      28. Never mind i found it section 164 worded real slick. There should still be a story done on it. Yall are smarter than me. I need help translating it.

      29. After SHTF the likely ONLY people to treat you for a medical ailment are those in your survival group or even yourself. Like any condition, preventative measures are far easier to stop a something from ever occurring in the firstplace. Treating the very sick because they took unnecessary risks that could have been stopped at the source. Everyone needs to be a jack of all trades and know at least the basics of fixing things, which of course includes healing the body.

        Someone should know about basic dentistry, but cavities of course can be reduced or even stopped if people practice proper oral hygiene each day. Proper control of germs is absolutely necessary as people that are clean are less likely to pick up some bacteria or a disease. Control of wastes and vermin cannot be understated.

        Knowing which foods have what you need in your daily requirements of vitamins and minerals. An excellent book for this is: “The Complete Book of Vitamin and Mineral Counts”, by Corinne T. Netzer. No one should ever underestimate just how fast malnutrition can put someone on their backside. This book shows which foods have how much of what you need, a superior book everyone should have.

        During a killer pandemic people should understand that taking a person to a treatment place, medical center or whereever, they are literally risking death. The highest concentration of the pathogen and probably every other secondary infection and perhaps other highly contagious germs are going to be right there. If a sick person doesn’t have the plague going around, after visiting a sick ward they will have it. This is why books like the mentioned above are so essential, because you don’t want to expose yourself to the places where people are the sickest, you will likely have to treat someone yourself.

        Don’t even begin to believe during a TRUE panademic that it is not all that bad. I myself would be extremely reluctant to put much faith in those N-95 masks because of having to visiting areas in which highly concentrations of the virus or bacteria would be enough to make someone sick through the 5% that would get through. With a virus it is how many of the individuals get through into your airways, each virus is different. i would also be guarding my eyes as you can sick through the virus entering through the eyes.

        There are of course other viruses like the filo-viruses that enter through the skin’s pores and this has to be taken into consideration if for example some terrorist or country has launched a bio attack using Marburg for example. The Soviet Union went to much work to weaponize marburg because it is way more stable in the air than Ebola.

        Again, try your very best to not to get sick, because treatment in many cases will be primative and difficult, especially after some mega disaster. One of the best advice that some many people forget after a disaster are their feet, as too many people shred their feet after an earthquake because of all the broken glass. It is so much easier to not have to fix something serious in your body because the person kept their wits about them and took the proper precautions. When treatment is necessary use this and other self help books and common sense to help those around you. Also don’t forget about our pets as much of this can help man’s best friend with what you know on treating people.

        • Be informed

          Great post prevention is always better than cure. I hope you don’t mind me saying but you are just slightly off the mark regarding filo viruses. They enter the body via the mucous membranes, or through defects in the skin, not via the pores. Hope you don’t mind me saying.

          Take care

          • @ Burt the Brit. Biology in college I did marginally well in, but still Earth Science is what I excelled in because it interested me more so. I have read much about viruses and I need to find where I read it, but from what I read is that filo-viruses are so tiny that they can enter through skin without defects in it. This is why treatment of patients is always done with the best gloves available with filo-viruses. There are the smallest virus that there is and travel through skin like it wasn’t even there. This is what I read, and since health and biology is not what you would call my cup of tea, I go by what I have read more than anything.

            My interest in biology and disease prevention peaked because of the anthrax attacks 11 years ago because I wanted to truly know as much as possible to know the dangers of bio-terrorism. There were people over here calling anthrax to everything, even flour that had spilled outside a bake shop. I also became very sick from handling something from the store that had not been washed off that was very sick. I was using hand sanitizer, but failed to realize at the time that EVERYTHING that comes from the market has to be washed off from someone that had touched it and been ill.

            Since this time, EVERYTHING that comes from the store is washed off with either soap and water, wash the germs down the sink, or is wiped off with hand sanitizer, alcohol based. It sure works during flu season extremely well, as others have found that this keeps them from catching the flu and staying well. It is a pain to clean off everything, but not coming down with the flu is well worth it. Strep throat is something that rides on all sorts of items from the market and it is worth to clean off everything to avoid this terrible bacteria.

            People just don’t understand germs, as people often just pick up a package of chicken dripping with juices all over the place, then wonder why they get salmonella and are in awful stomach anguish for a few days. Prevention is ALWAYS the first line of defense.

            I never mind you saying something that gives me an accurate reading of something. As I said, this is just what I read about filo-viruses from some medical journal years ago. I just know that the fatality rate is 70-90% and that makes this type of virus almost an Andromeda strain type of killer. The fact that the USSR was weaponizing Marburg to one day be used means that other countries like North Korea, Iran, and possibly terrorist organizations have done it also. Germ warfare scares the hell out of me. A deadly pathogen like in these movies with a fatality rate near 100% that comes from the slums of India because of nature is even more terrifying. Nature has a knack for killing off species, both in the plant and animal kingdoms.

            Hope you are having a nice Sunday.

            • Be informed

              I am having a fine Sunday, thank you, I hope yours is the same.

              All patients should be handled using universal precautions, gloves in particular. Filo virus patients should also be treated with masks and visors due to the possibility of contamination of the eyes and mouth of the medics.

              I have tried to find any reference that points to filo viruses entering through the skin and I cannot. This doesn’t mean it isn’t there of course, just that I haven’t found it. In this country at least there is nothing been taught currently that indicates there has been a change in thinking regarding filo viruses.

              If you come across the reference I would be very interested in where to find it, none of us should be complacent about keeping ourselves up to date with the latest information.

              You are right that these viruses have a high mortality rate. The best of the lot if you have to get one of them is Ebola Reston that so far has not caused death in humans.

              Survivor Mike made a comment earlier on about hygiene being the basis of preventative medicine, I agree totally but it’s something that’s obvious but not always underlined. It would make sense to say the same about donning gloves when dealing with casualties, it seems obvious, so obvious we rarely mention it. Most pathogens get in via respiration or through skin defects, if both areas are covered using barrier methods cross contamination is going to be reduced markedly.

              I will get back to you if I find any references. Until then keep posting, I really enjoy reading them.

              Take care

            • @ Burt the Brit. I searched for that article and truly I cannot find it. I did find what spooked me into researching the filo-viruses though. In this easy to read book called: “Biohazard”, by Ken Alibek with Stephen Handleman, that I highly recommend everyone should get because it really talks about the USSR bio-weapons and how horrible these pathogens are. It says on page 113; “Ebola ravages its hosts and dies quickly on exposure to oxygen, though a number of people who have had only a glancing contact with Ebola victims have come down with the disease”.

              This got me to thinking about how poisonous nerve gases can kill people through just skin contact and how could filo-viruses just get in through skin to skin contact. I then read years ago that it can pass through the skin because in part of the tinest of it and because like the following paragraph describes the behaviour of the virus on page 130 of the same book I mentioned. This was someone that had been infected and was dying from Marburg named Ustinov in Vector, USSR, a bio-weapons development lab.

              “The fiolviruses were already multiplying by the billions inside Ustinov’s tissues, sucking out their nutrients in order to clone copies of themselves. Each viral particle, or virion, forms a brick that pushes against the cell walls until they burst. The cells then sprout wavering hair-like antennae that home in on their next target, where the process of foraging and destruction blindly repeats itself”. From what I understood was that one cell membrane to another didn’t matter and it upon contact with the other “host” just passed through like it was basically the same body.

              Again, I am hardly the biologist, but basic science in the physical world has a lot of similarities to the way atoms and molecules behave, as nothing is solid as we all perceive. This is where I could see something so virulent passing from one barrier to the next without much problem. It made sense to me since Marburg is so much more stable in oxygen than Ebola, and why the soviets concentrated so much effort into making it a weapon.

              I also found another issue that proves that N-95 masks are sometimes not going to help you. It says that casually inhaling as few as “3” microscopic viral particles several days after a bio-attack would be enough to kill someone. This says that if you go outside your home into an affected area, you must have a N-100 mask and as you said all sorts of eye protection and other protective secure gear when dealing with some of these awful germs. Better yet, have a good stockpile of what you need and stay away from dangerous areas, inside and safer.

              When I was looking for more information on Marburg I ran into how some people were saved because they were given heparin, an anticoagulant to stop the massive small clotting throughout the blood vessels on the body. Literally people have so much thickened blood that they had strokes and heart attacks because the virus causes this. Those that survive it often are left with severe hepatitis from a nearly destroyed liver. These descriptions of dying from filo-viruses is enough to freak anyone out.

              Another book I read, it is quite drawn out, but really goes into the monster viruses that people know about is called: “The Coming Plague”, by Laurie Garrett. This book is 700+ pages and doesn’t have the flare that the other book that is 300+ pages long, but very interesting to read.

              I honestly go into the market and some people have absolutely no concept of germs and being clean. You would think they come from some fourth world country with flies landing on pieces of meat hanging around, probably for days. I won’t put down the groceries on the checkout belt if someone has put a meat package down that is not put into plastic wrap without having the clerk use disinfective first on where my groceries are going to be checked out.

              This why WHEN a pathogen gets loose, MOST people will be infected and will have a die rate all depending on the mortality rate of the germ. Others will have a much better chance of not being infected that practice basic hygeine and precautions. You are more likely to catch more concentrated amounts of what can make you sick from what you touch and the items that are touched by those that are sick. Expect everything to be crawling with the deadly germ during a super pandemic and act accordingly. A super germ is not the swine flu, it is like a type of killer that can wipe out entire cities like the black death did centuries ago in Europe.

      30. to Mac:
        thanx for this article!
        It’s good to have someplace to locate sound advice on medical stuff hard to find elsewhere!
        I think this is my shortest post to date!
        Bet you got your towel too!
        Best to All!

      31. Having worked in the land of research, I can say this much for aseptic technique: bleach, heat and ethanol. Those three do a damn fine job of cleaning/sterilizing quite a bit. I used to keep a spray bottle of ethanol on my lab bench (70% to 90%) to spray my instruments and gloves. Just remember, whenever working with an open wound ya gotta be sterile!

        I read somewhere about the antibiotic/antifungal properties of garlic. Couldn’t find much on dosage/administration but it looks like this could be a possible alternative to a more traditional antibiotic. Doing an aqueous extraction from the bulb then treating bacteria seems to be effective against classical gram positive and gram negative yuckies as well as the fungus Candida albicans. The article I read was published in 5/2012 in a reputable medical journal.

        Maybe add some garlic to that garden. Those bulbs could be used for more than just cooking. 🙂

        • Kynase.

          Couldn’t agree with you more.

          Take care

        • @kynase
          You are right, galic bulbs can be used for more than cooking. They can be used in bullets as there is no known antidote.

      32. Off the subject:

        Anyone who either voted for Obamacare in Congress or the SCOTUS needs to be arrested by the Patriot movement on treason charges.

        On the 4th. and there after, I’ll be flying my flag unsidedown.

        Now is the time to rebell. It’s the one thing that Alinsky tactics can’t deal with. They are not ready for it. But they know it’s coming and are getting ready. Thus the 450 million rounds of pistol ammo and all of Odumbo’s new fiat laws. We must act before they are ready!

        If you think that Obamacare is the end, hell I hate to break it to you but it’s only the start.

        We all know what they have planned for us. Are we going to hide in our basements, or on our farms, and wait for them to pass even worse laws, or pick us off one by one?


        Band together, organize. Leaders need to come forward, I’m just a voice crying in the wilderness.

        • It means we’re in a whole lot of trouble so come save our asses ’cause we ain’t got a prayer in hell of saving it ourselves.

          Nuff said…I agree with Tommy Lee Jones.

      33. another very good site

        the textbook Doc Cindy has put out is a great reference
        as is the Doom and Bloom book
        I have both

        a word of caution about self medicating
        it should only be done as an absolute last resort
        ALWAYS check for any interactions with other medications
        get yourself a good drug handbook
        one used by nurses is good


        Hang John Roberts from a sour apple tree,
        Hang Pelosi from a sour apple tree,
        Oh, don’t forget to do the same to Harry Reid,

        The Republic must go on.

        • WTF!, only three red thumbs up? Hey, I know that it’s not a great tune like, “Play the Funky Music White Boy”, but I don’t see anybody else writing a battle song.

          • Insert “V”….aka & formally known as -southern boy- in the hanging line up & ya might get a few green thumbs, jeff.

            Its very odd that “V” & “southern-boy’s” posting style & syntax are IDENTICAL.
            After getting his ass handed to him, in tatters, by AHAB, he evidently created a new posting persona.

            Yep…epic fail, on his part.

      35. shits kinda hitting the fan for the mid atlantic area

        Eastern US storms kill 13, cut power to millions

        they say it could be weeks without power..hope any of you fellow SHTF preppers are ok and set for this, another dam good reasson to prep. because you just never know what Mother Nature can throw at you

        • I’m in the middle of this. I got a text from my kin to the West that the damaging storm was headed our way and called my wife home from softball and got the metal shed I am building tied down just before it hit. We only temporarily lost power here in town, but my retreat neighbors got an estimate from the electric company for power to be restored by July 10th. They are better prepared for the heat in the shade and mountains so I’m thankful to still have A/C here in town. We would have set the cabin tent up in the back yard otherwise as after dark it is much cooler outside than in without A/C.

          • Pastor,
            Don’t you think that there might be a message in the fact that two days after the Obamacontrol/care verdict is announced DC is hit with this weird storm?

            Sort of makes you believe in the Almighty

            • I intentionally avoid religion on this site to be less devisive as I am here to proselytize preparedness, but since you asked many religions have some sort of Karma (what goes around comes around) including mine which we call the law of sowing and reaping. I believe Billy Graham said it best when he originally stated that “If God does not judge America, He is going to have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.”

              The front page of today’s paper feature a photo of a line of cars stretching down the highway as far as one could see. They were waiting for gasoline at the only station open in the next county. The open restaurants are swamped with unprepared people. People are complaining on Facebook because they have to charge their smart phones in the car. I have a dumb phone and rarely turn it on.

              Imagine what things would be like if they did not know power would be restored in a couple weeks. Appalachians are no longer the resilient people we used to be.

        • a harbinger for events to come?

      36. Wow that was a bad storm! Feel really bad for all the unprepared..Hopefully people will wake up and always be well stocked , not just for a shtf , put for mother nature.Thankfully im getting there, thanks to this site. For my birthday i asked my hubby for a generator….GOT IT!….going out this week for a small window air unit ( to keep at least one room cool)..i also got a french coffee press for the times when theres no electricty…great thing to have for all the coffee drinkers to have…iodine iodine i have alot of that ( among other things) that is some darn good stuff to have around.That stuff kills bad germs within 30 seconds after using it.!!!.also been stocking up on silver cream now in stores also great to have, exspecially for burns, very glad to see u can get that stuff now.I know they use it in burn centers….Anyway Im getting there, thanks to this site.

      37. I want a buck guard for my future F350.

      38. where there is no doctor and where there is no dentist
        are suppose to be good books.

        • See my link earlier to download them and other FREE healthcare books.

      39. @ Be Informed: I agree with your assessment of why to stay away from a treatment center during a pandemic.

        Reason: Germs on every surface and in the air. I ran the Fairchild AFB Hospital Clinics, all my new medics were off and on sick for about 9 months = exposure to illnesses and lacked resistance.

        Go on the web and review “Nursing Isolation Practices”. You will be amazed how much you can learn.

        Also review common diseases or conditions that may raise their ugly heads during a SHTF situation; typhoid, Typhus, chicken pox, flu, dehydration, oral hydration techniques, heart attacks, strokes, delivering babies.

        According to your religious beliefs – review burial practices and how to run a burial of a friend/loved one, neighbor with respect and care for the family. Why? it may come to that some day.

        Put your Holy Bible in your Kit.

      40. my wife is going to school right now to become a paramedic for this very reason

        • yeah i posted that already, but really lets stop sueing the departments ok? that only hurts you and your fellow brothers and sisters..lets start sueing the PERSON who did the stomping of said rights..thats when you will do some good, and teach those who stomp on our rights what it feels like when they do something wrong..they will not lose any sleep over the tax payers fronting the bill, as they get “paid leave”..go after the thugs civily..take them down to the ground..make them homeless for stomping on your rights..Own that person for fucking with you, I bet if more of this went on..our rights would not be stomped on so often

          Get on it people..stop sueing your municipalities ( your tax paying brothers and sisters) start sueing the assholes who fuck with you in civil court

      41. This exchange on facebook is why I don’t even make the effort to wake people up anymore-they’ll never get it-
        -this is in regards to HealthCare Reform-

        (fb male)…. “Unfortunately when you have people that think this means we are becoming the USSR it makes it hard to have a logical debate on it.”

        (fb female nurse ) “True. The doom and gloom attitude with anything political turns me off. We are a strong country, so people need to stop living in fear and keep moving forward and being proactive instead of whining and complaining. It all goes back to what I have said time and time again…If we truly believe God is in control and is on the throne, why are we worrying and being angry about issues that have the same result in the end. Just depends where your focus is I guess.”

        So, this is how the other ½ thinks, must be painful to think like that, like trying to read without my glasses…I wish I could go back to the days when I was oblivious, but I can’t. Too late, I have cardinal knowledge now. One web site, that’s all it took to pop my cherry…and I’ve been stocking up ever since.

        • I get the opposite extreme. People I call ‘conspiracy theorists’ who think everything is part of some predetermined plan to destroy them. They complain about what they can’t change, verbally support fringe candidates, but don’t even bother to vote. They do not want to have a discussion as much as they want to cram down their point of view.

          The best place to be is somewhere in the middle. Being open-minded empowers us to change what we can (usually ourselves) while accepting the fact that we are not in control of our destiny gives us freedom to sleep at night.

        • just wait to get her opinion when the entire county hits the skids because of the additional “funding” this law will create..wonder if she will stop living in fear when her door is busted in and everything she worked for is stolen at gun point and she is raped..God is only in control if you are in control of yourself..plenty of people who let “God” do their bidding have died at the end of a theft or invasion.
          so we are to believe that all those that died in wars were not looked after by God? that her understanding of it as they must have all been allowed to die by gods hands? that chick is sick

          wonder what her outlook will be when her paycheck takes her less futher? or when shes standing in line at the store to buy a few things after she busted her ass at work for the past 12 hours each day, and the person in line ahead of her fills their cart and produces a bridge card and hops into a brand new car..yeah we need to be proactive for sure, wait and see when she starts bitching on will come soon enough she will forget all those words and sentiment

          mark my words

      42. eppe says: June 30, 2012 at 5:09 pm

        “This is the reason I learned herboligy 30 years ago….”

        You gut wrenching bunch of pukes that gave him 2 down, need to join omegaman as TROLLS OF THE YEAR!!

        Y’all Beware! If you have balls, hang around. We have enough good women here to cut ‘em off.

      43. we are so phucked

      44. Google Shopping Censors All Gun, Ammo & Accessories Results

        Google Shopping. In order to comply with our new policies, please remove any weapon-related products from your data feed and then re-submit your feed in the Merchant Center.

        Fuck Google..

        • vrf

          Saw that as well..

          Never use google anyways

          indications of a fed run opp

          keep your opsecs low


      45. My biggest concern is childbirth after the collapse. If you go back 100 years infant mortality was high and women dying in childbirth was high. My daughter-in-law has one on the way and she has a heart-shaped uterus. The doctor expects her to have a breach birth and for her to need a c-section. If the collapse happens first it’s unlikely that both she and the baby will make it.

      46. Ask Alex ´´the Arabs own Hollywood´´ Jones can not say the J word .. noooo not the J´´ermans or the J´´oslems put the people in prison in Europe for 12 years for thought crimes … Ok the 7 OWNERS of the FED are Adolf Hitler and the Nazis right?? Come on Alex´´ they always lie , but in the history of the second world war ´´they´´ always speaking just the genuine truth.

      47. the problem is the ´´´´ guess who ´´´´ ?? they have been kicked out of 120 countries in the history of the world, why? Because they have always been the same ´they have always ripped of the people.. you don ´t believe it …look it up at least the people should know ´´who is responsible for this mess´´
        The Germans knew , and at least they tried to do something .. the Americans in the other hand ..they are without defense…. that´s the ugly truth .. zion crime factory…. read this site

      48. There is more logic to this than you think. The odds of Obamacare ruining your individual health care and higher than the odds of it improving it. Having a backup of basic health skills, a supply of basic medicines, and know, personally at least one doctor might be the difference between living comfortably or living miserably.

      49. Has anyone brought any meds from the web from northwest medical prepareness shown on the front page on the bottom right of this website..i would like to but im alittle worried aboutmeds doc wont do anything and looks at u like ur have crazed..thanks

        • My neighbors (the sheeple) buy from Canada..their doctor sugggested it.
          Now, if that suggestion was from me…psst..guess what would have been done…nothing.
          But, being a doctor and all, he’s much smarter than I.
          I take no meds but would buy from Canada…many do.

      50. civil war Real World shock therapy , treating “shock” from gunshot wound loss of blood …

        1. 8 oz glass of sterilized clean water swallowed or i.v. drip
        2. 1 tblsp of refined sugar , molasses , maple syrup
        3. 1 teasp of salt

        *** every 6 hours , first 24 hrs , with as much sterilized clean water fluids as patient can safely take in .

        ~ you know who

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