Barter Society Emerges in Greece As Crisis Deepens *Video*

by | Oct 29, 2011 | Emergency Preparedness | 185 comments

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    As the Greek economy succumbs to the debt crisis and individual Greeks are made poorer each day through austerity measures and job cuts, many have begun resorting to traditional bartering as a way to make ends meet and at the same time increase their involvement with neighbors and their general community.

    Services being bartered include anything from language classes and babysitting to hand cooked meals and daily labor.

    It’s huge. Everything we do is without money, like looking after people or making food by ourselves.

    …We still have the memory of an agricultural society in Greece when people used to do things together, like they would do the olive trees of my family this week, and next week we do the olive trees of your family. And, then the next week, the other neighbor. So, we would exchange services, and they like that.

    With the tough economic times leaving many Greeks feeling worthless there is real value in projects like the time bank. With the Greek government drowning in debt, these creative solutions are offering not only support, but encouragement for the people…

    As we’ve suggested on previous occasions, when a country goes through a monetary crisis, depression or recession, traditional methods of income disappear, sometimes overnight. As a result, those who are aware that the paradigm has or is shifting and are willing to accept their new reality will prosper.

    Greece, referred to by many as the canary in the coal mine of the ever-worsening global economic crisis, is a perfect example of how communities will respond during monetary, fiscal and political chaos. Use their example to your benefit, because similar circumstances will take place in the U.S. and other industrialized Western nations in due time.

    Erich of Tactical Intelligence recently provided some advice on personal economic redundancy, in which he says that we should seek to give value, not time:

    As an employee, you only get paid a percentage of the true value you generate. For example my company bills me out at $250/hr but I only see a fraction of that. The rest goes straight into other people’s pockets.

    This is akin to being a wage slave.

    To free yourself from slavery you first need to change your mindset.

    This mindset shift happens when you realize that you earn income by providing value, not time. So look for ways to provide the most value to others, and charge a fair price for it.

    One of the best ways is to start your own business. Whatever work you’re doing now in your employment, find a way to provide that same value directly to those who are benefiting from it. This way you get paid to the full level of the value you are offering.

    It may take a bit of up-front investment in time and perhaps capital, but the freedom gained will be well worth it.

    Understanding your inherent value, the skills available to you, and then taking those skills directly to the marketplace will become critical in a society where our traditionally modern service sector jobs are being destroyed by the thousands daily.

    What skills do you have? What skills would you like to have? Will that be valuable to people in the middle of an economic depression? These are all questions we should be asking ourselves right now – before the need for us to use them to survive from day-to-day arises.

    In What is Money When the System Collapses? we offered some advice on investments that you can be making today, which will be worth much more during and/or after an economic crunch. One such investment is to build or further develop your existing skill sets:

    Another important monetary commodity after the crunch will be trade skills. If you know how to fish, machine tools, hunt, sew, fix and operate radioes, fix cars, manufacture shoes, or grow food, you’ll have some very important skills during the recovery period.

    In Top Post-Collapse Barter Items And Trade Skills Brandon Smith of Alt Market further expands on essential trade skills that will be highly valued in a bartering economy:

    Mechanic, Engine Repair



    Firearms Repair, Ammo Reloading


    Architect, Home Reinforcement

    Agriculture, Farming Expertise, Seed Saving, Animal Care

    Bee Keeping

    Doctor, Medical Assistant


    Well Construction, Water Table Expertise

    Engineer, Community Planning, Manufacturing, Electrical

    Firearms Proficiency, Security, Self Defense Planning

    Martial Arts Training

    Full article and list…

    One day, there may be no jobs to be had, which means we’ll have to create our own jobs. And unlike most of today’s laborers, we’ll actually have to produce something of value that can then be traded to others for something else of value.

    Start preparing for tomorrow’s barter economy today.

    Hat tip Pete at 123 Feel Better


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      1. The Greek leaders will get what they will get. The people will get what is left. We will see who is left. Will be the same here. The people here are a “head” of the curve that seek. Odds are that most here have a plan.

        From gazers to grazers, Kenmore has a fridge for you.

      2. It’s happening as the article says. In a town of south-east Crete, called Ierapetra, people made a group which assists on another.
        I will paint your house and you will watch my kids. I do your accounting and tax, you will help me with my olives.
        They implemented a system of units, in which basic goods and services have a value.
        With this system, unemployed people with skills, have the ability to work on their subject, and earn something in return.
        As i have told to Mac already, my wife is an English teacher. Due to the “crisis”, most parents cannot afford any payment. But she continued the classes to some of the kids. One of the parents, offered to assist me in the olives harvest next December. This is very important for both of us. I don’t yet have the expertise to do it, he feels that he must do something for us.
        It’s a win win situation.
        From my point of view, in this shit-hole we entered, the only way up is compassion. We must be close to each other, and support our fellow human beings.
        The survival of one helps the survival of the nation.
        It doesn’t have to do with capitalism, economics, or money anymore.
        It’s us against them.
        Who is them? Banks, crapy governments, foreign saviors, finance experts, and other “good” friends of ours.

        • Manos – your story about the budding of the barter system on your island made me smile. I love the fact that this has the potential to make neighbours closer. That is something I hadn’t really considered before.

          And you are absolutely right – compassion and love for one another is the key.

          This just pleases my little hippy heart to no end.

          Peace, love and rock ‘n’ roll, Manos! 😀

          • Oh please daisy, kiss it a little more and this time throw in a little tongue.

          • You are dating yourself. Didn’t know there were still hippies around. Free love, burn your bra, shagg’n, pot, tie dye, peace is what my mummy told me, trim that tree.

        • I am so screwed.

          The neighbor owns a mortuary.

          • LOL!!!! 😀

          • Mine is a used car salesman. Sigh

            • I have a friend that used to sell cars in New York. He has a saying: “There’s an ass for every seat”

            • “Mine is a used car salesman. Sigh”

              Cheer up. He could have been a lawyer. 🙁

          • My nieghbors a proctologist.

            He’s going to give me the finger, one way or another.

          • Trade him for gall bladders POA then export them to China as bear gall bladders and make a fortune off the demand for animal parts.

            I mean if they can send lead toys to our kids, we ought to be able to return the favor in some way.

            Last I heard bear gall bladders were selling for 50K. Tell them they are from small bears!

            • There’s lots of bears in San Francisco down on Castro Street or Palm Springs, California. Oh wait, probably not those kind of bears right?

          • I’m not gonna do so well with these neighbours. I have an elderly chain smoker and an obnoxious philosophy professor.

            • Use them as security to ward off looters: if one doesn’t kill them with lung cancer the other one will bore them to death.

            • We’re OK on both sides, but the neighbor across the street? His unofficial nickname is “Scavenger.” Yep, you guessed it – he prowls through the streets and alleys on garbage night, looking for anything he can sell at a local flea market. We’ve seen him dragging home old vacuum cleaners, plywood, broken chairs, etc. He and his space cadet wife park their cars on the street because his garage is full of “antiques” (i.e. “junk”). We’ve kept a respectable distance from him since we moved here 20 years ago. WTSHTF, he would be the first to steal anything that isn’t nailed down. Fortunately, my husband is a certified marksman and sharpshooter. 😉

            • Use the professor as a self-propelled sandbag.

            • Hey, I am one of those scavenger types, and will no doubt grab something of value off the curb on trash night. And gurss what, when I sell a truck load of found merchandise, it is 100% prpfit, untraceable income. And we have been barterong for years…. Have been off grid for years, and live well. Also, never stolen anything in my life.

          • Why are you screwed? Somebody has to bury the intruders you shoot. You can trade him some already used bullets.

            • Hey! I can weld! So, when you shoot an intruder and he cremates the bodies the lead will melt and be collected by my newly designed “Lead From The Dead” collection device! Maybe I could even design some type of automatic bullet caster that just automatically fluxes and casts the metal right into a variety of bullets.

              Hmmm. Now you got me thinking.

            • “Lead from the Dead”, now that’s some funny sh..!

          • Mine seems like a nice Mexican dude, he’s new, just moved in, no idea….no habla.

            • I’ve got a neighbor that is a NFL mascot that’s a great looking lesbian, but she hasn’t come out yet.

          • If the IRS shows up at your door I’m sure the mortuary dude will come in handy.

        • amazing!such a beautiful coming together of community support.I, for one,am taking a ‘page’ out of your book.

        • Manos,
          I would be very interested to know what the various values are of the “implemented system of units, in which basic goods and services have a value.”

          What is more valuable?…
          an hour of X-this for 4 hours of Y-that?…
          or is it an hour for an hour?…
          Is it written, can you share?

          Thank you for your updates

          • That Guy,

            There is the site of the move, which describes all offered-accepted goods and services. All prices are in units called kaereti.
            So if for example you offer a vase of strawberry jam, the site provides details of your personal data. Name, e-mail, product description etc.
            When i contact you, we bargain the price and we both make the transaction aknowledged within the site, so every member can see it.
            Through our transaction, the units are been recorded. So you have, for example, +10 units for the sale, and i have -10units for the purchase.
            Then you search for a guy to paint your house. You enter the site, you find the paint offers, bargain the price, and then the transaction is been recorded, etc.
            My -10 units must be covered somehow, so i must place an offer with my skills. As soon as i find somebody who needs accounting-tac assistance, i will be able to cover my “debt” to the community.
            It’s important to have good bargains in order to always be on the + side of the equation. But the community can accept a “debt” of -100 units, for some period of time.
            It looks fine, but i will wait to see how it’s going to work in the long run.
            My opinion is that it’s a nice system, suitable for a transitional period of the Greek society. As soon as things start to get better, this system may become obsolete.
            Unless of course SHTF and TEOTWAWKI.

            Be safe all of you.

            • Thank you Manos.

              I suppose it is time to go ahead and start these sites in the US too. I think I have heard some “noise” that the IRS wants a piece of the action, but, you know what? Due to the FACT that the IRS is part of the machine which is causing the problems which will lead to this type of site being neeeded….
              how about this IRS?… YOU ARE NUMBER ONE!!!!

              If “the machine” does not want this type of site and barter behavior, then how about the corrupt machine stop being so corrupt and keep things together…. other wise, it is none of “the machines” business.

              The machine makes me sick to my stomach. So much money is sucked off the American public. I dont know it it is a fact, but I heard a horrifying number… it was… Americans will spend 450 Billion Dollars on gasoline this year. That is money that is gone, up in fumes. And where does that money go? Dubai. How is that a good idea?

              Does anyone know if there are any barter sites like this up and operating?, or if anyone if planning on settting them up? We might as well start them up and start testing them, so the fkg corrupt machine can try to figure out a way to tax them, and then we can figure out a way around that….

        • I have been emailing Congressmen for months with a plan to create a tax credit system where your credits have a market-based cash value which would cost taxpayers nothing. Imagine the I.R.S. registers charities, the charity certifies you completed X work (your skill/trade) for them and the I.R.S. verifies that labor has an X value. You send in a form with your taxes that has a matching certificate from the charity. Each year the I.R.S. gives you a tax credit equal to 1/2 the value 50% and then you register this credit unit with a trading exchange and they sell it for a fee at any amount based on current market prices to large corporations who purchase it for the face value amount in a tax deduction to them. 100% employment and 100% of it in charitable works which save taxpayers money by lessening the burden on society WHILE creating a new market for Wall Street. Responses to my emails for the last two years; Z-E-R-O.

          Democracy is only for the rich apparently.

      3. The ultimate power of the people vs. the taxman.

        It’ll be interesting. Some stuff is easy to barter – say homegrown foodstuffs for skilled services. But many things we take for granted depend on huge capital installations – like gasoline & medicines. Hard to barter stuff like that, except for legacy inventories which will disappear almost overnight.

        Would be really good to see exactly what is being bartered for what in Greece, and by whom.

      4. I think when Bartering begins it will put the masses in touch with the real, true value of belongings, products and services. I can’t wait!! Long over due. Imagine Wall Streeters bartering their Rolex’s for a couple boxes of TP.

        Barter Clubs Boom as Argentina Economy Collapses Trueque

        • Most ‘elites’ really don’t own anything outright, mortgages or a payment plan on everything. They ‘leverage’ what they have in order to acquire more. Their wealth is 95%+ assets on paper; in other words, actually nonexistent in terms of real ‘hold-it-in-your-hand’ value.

          As long as the ‘house of cards’ remains standing, then these folks continue making the ‘big-bucks’, smiling alot and acquiring things. But just look at what happened to the Greek debt held by private investors (elites) here recently. They woke up one fine morning to discover that, oops, they had lost 50% of the value of their investment in Greek Bonds overnight. I’ll bet that they were left standing there with their dicks in their hands and funny looks on their faces! That had to hurt…… a lot!!!

          Greece is just the first domino in the line. Within 30 days after Greece defaults on their debt, Europe will start to go. I figure that we have somewhere between 10 – 30 days after Europe goes before we here in the United States begin to see the onset of an economic collapse.

          Those here in the United States who are used to having the door opened for them and used to being called “Sir” are going to be in for a very rude awakening, I’m afraid. When their ‘paper’ assetts disappear in a puff of smoke; most of this class will be very ill prepared to survive. They will have neither items to barter with or barterable skills that will be required to survive when the economy grinds to a halt.

          An actual ‘black economy’ has been operating out there in the United States for as long as anybody can remember. What everyone needs to do is to develop a barterable skill set that will be in demand when the day comes that you can’t go to the store and buy whatever you need off the shelf. Take a look at your local Community College, some of their continuing Adult Education classes fit right in to becoming more self reliant.

          God Bless and good luck to all.

          • One thing they have going for them is that many live in hi-rise apartments. Don’t even have to leave home to jump.

      5. We have a big problem here, I can’t go to the school board and say, I’ll paint your school and you forget my taxes.Those school and county,town taxes are due even if you just lost both your legs.

        • Exactly! And if you don’t pay them they’ll take your property. Local taxes are even worse vultures than the IRS.

          • The day of Reckoning is coming. It CANNOT be avoided.

            When enough wake up and finally STOP participating in the ponzi tax scheme, and it will take a majority, the whole corrupt system will implode upon itself. Of course, to back up the collective’s statement, it may take some final convincing by the 80 million, or so, who have ‘you know what’ in their possession, to make it so.

        • If everyone en masse suddenly cannot afford those taxes, is the county going to evict everyone with what little manpower they have? That’s a lot of citizens against a few sheriff deputies.

          • It’ll be fun to watch as some HOA tries to enforce it’s rules.

          • I believe that exactly what’s going to happen. Every time things get tight my county ups property taxes and passes levys. They think I’m a cash cow for their lazy asses. They’ll do whatever they can to squeeze my last dime…

            • I don’t understand why we don’t recall more politicians. If they are doing a crappy job, fire them. Does anyone know why more recalls are not done from the local to the state to the federal level?

            • “They’ll do whatever they can to squeeze my last dime…”

              Yes, they will, for they are true jackals. But… whatever will they do when there are no more dimes to be squeezed? My guess is that they will stand around with that deer-in-the-headlights look on their faces and not have a friggin’ clue as to what to do to EARN an honest living.

          • exactly, Mr. ScoutMotto–dh and I discuss this about every week; not only taxes, but mortgage, and insurance…I truly believe insurance will be a thing of the past. How can a sheriff justify evicting thousands to the streets when he just watched 12 million of our tax dollars beig spent to build an unneeded court house??

            • How is the sheriff of Upper Butt Crack Oklahoma going to evict thousands of hungry, pissed off people when he has two deputies (and they tell him “You serve the notice, I’ll serve as backup in the car”)?

          • yes. They will bring manpower from neighboring locales and evict you, seal your house and go away. They don’t care if that house is occupied by squatters.

        • Well, not exactly…

          You could barter a few goods or services in exchange for a few vital short-term lessons for your kids, or maybe offer to paint the teacher’s house, tend to a sickness, etc. in exchange for a semester or a course of lessons.

          Or, as a community you can get together, provide room and board for a teacher or two, in exchange for the community’s kids getting schooling throughout the school year.

          • the teachers that we have are so spoiled that they’re not going to do anything til the last dime is gone from the tax payer, they are a big part of our problem.

            • As a former (non-union) associate professor, I agree. OTOH, you may well be surprised… most teachers are paid way the hell less than most folks, and when I did it for a living? I had zero problems working on the side in exchange for a good or service. Things like exchanging a basic course in using Windows or UNIX for a re-painted house, overhauled engine, a whole summer of freshly mowed yard, half a cow (in beef), an old-but-working pickup truck, etc…

            • People will have to get an idea what their skills are really worth. Do you really think someone would pay any of those things for a basic course in windows or UNIX? In a SHTF scenerio?

            • Post-SHTF? Hell, no. I intend to use my engineering skills by then.

              OTOH, my point is that teachers are largely willing to barter right now, so their doing so post-SHTF for needed skills (maths, basic sciences, basic literacy, medicine, engineering, maybe history, diesel and small engine mechanics, etc) wouldn’t be too much of an obstacle against parlaying their skills.

              Now the teachers who got stupid and specialized in the ‘basket-weaving’ subjects (psychology, feminist studies, .NET programming, business/MBA, etc) are royally screwed, but, well, that’s not my problem.

        • I see an even greater philosophy beginning—volunteering.
          I am 61, have no life, have no family, have no neighbors to speak of…and would be pleased to go to a classroom and teach a few hours a day. I’m within walking distance of one school.
          I just finished painting a few walls I messed up(masking tape; next time, stick pins, tiny hoses are better than drywall repair)—I can’t see the difference in my work and a professional.
          I can haul wood from the Amish mills for wood stoves if gas is available. I just did.
          There are just so many things–I cook and take treats to the nursing home all the time.
          And I am great at yardwork—my weed-eating and mowing are top notch.
          So, there, with gas, I have lots of gifts to give/volunteer.

          • holes, not hoses, geeze.

      6. Never have to vote again for a lying politician, check, never have to hear a president lie about his intentions, check, never have to be told where I can carry my handgun, check, hey I am really starting too see the endless possibilities of the Liberty and Freedom!

        • We put more in so you’ll get more out. Kenmore. Imagine the possibilities.

          • Quality goes in before the name goes on…

      7. It’s difficult to start your own business when nobody has money to pay you. Bartering for services is nice but I still need money to buy food and pay my mortgage.

        This shows an ignorance of how businesses work:

        “As an employee, you only get paid a percentage of the true value you generate. For example my company bills me out at $250/hr but I only see a fraction of that. The rest goes straight into other people’s pockets.”

        Actually, no, it’s not that simple. If you’re a plumber you have to have a building, vehicles, sales, and support personnel. You have to pay payroll taxes and property taxes. You’d have to be an idiot to think that the difference between what the company bills and what they pay you goes into the owner’s pocket.

        • It depends on how “big” you want to be. You can be a 1 man operation and make a lot.

        • Well said Farm Cat… that line bothered me and since I am a business owner; frankly just pissed me off. What ignorance, selfishness and pompous arrogance.

          • I noticed that too. Our shop bills $120 an hour. The techs get $35 an hour.

            We spend just over $8K per year per tech to upgrade their skills and keep them certified. We pay $5K for communications modules that have to be updated every time a new model vehicle comes out (so every year). We have several of those modules, not to mention a state-of-the-art shop with $25K hoists.

            Our techs complain that the pay for them is unfair based upon what we bill, but no one stops to think about the cost of the education, the equipment and the INSURANCE (huge$$$). Then don’t forget the advertising, the facility….the list goes on and on!

            I’m preaching to the choir here, so rant OFF. 🙂

            • Not to mention the fact that you don’t just employ people. You end up “parenting” some of them.

              Been there, done that, bought the tax man a T shirt.

            • My experience has been that an employee is worth 1/3 of what he can bill / produce. If you have to train and/or babysit the kid, they are only worth 25%.

            • Depends…

              OTOH, I think the guy is talking about IT contracting and consulting. I’ve seen IT contracting companies who would bill 2-3x what they pay the programmer or admin, and such companies don’t carry nearly the same expenses (that is, you won’t have the training, tools, benefits, insurance, etc). Hell, some demand you do 1099 (no withholding) and try to rake in the difference.**

              So there are instances where it’s not much more than an elaborate scam. OTOH, I can usually find out fairly quickly who is really doing the contracting or contract-for-hire (it pays to have a grapevine), contact the client myself, and offer to do it for 2/3 what the contracting company would charge per hour, which means I still come out way ahead. In IT, the rate they pay is usually 1/3 what they charge the client, and those times when I snuck in there first netted me a 2x increase per hour over what I would have normally been paid. For a 12-month contract, that really adds up. Sure, you have to do the whole self-employment thing and pay taxes quarterly, but at double the salary, it was kinda worth it.

              ** there are exceptions to this rule (e.g. CompuCom or Excell), but by and large, in the IT realm, it’s usually a scam.

            • Daisy I’m glad you noticed. When people get paid far less than they know customers pay for their services its easy to get up a dither. They forget the costs of the business. They want to hate them for taking the substantial sum, and so few ignore the taxes, the customer complaints, the bills you noted and MORE that businesses must face. You don’t like it – go out on your own as was written in the article. Don’t complain you are a “slave” that is BS. Slaves don’t get anything. That sounds just like the OWS crowd and their hate of someone successful.

            • the shop has to pay all the overhead out of the profits you are making them plus they want to make a buck, heat,cooling,lights,upkeep of the building,land taxes, liability ins, match the SS,corp taxes,ect. workmans comp, all taxes.

            • “Our techs complain that the pay for them is unfair based upon what we bill”

              Same old tired story everywhere you go. Not a single employee risked their personal wealth to start the business, not a single one risks their personal credit, has spent their entire life working 18 hours a day on the business including holidays, weekend etc because when it is your baby it is you and you only making it happen, not a single one of them understands how much it costs to even HAVE a business, that the State + Federal government take 50% of everything you make and 70% of what is left goes to OPERATING EXPENSES but you’ll hear the whining everyday “how come I get so little when they charge so much?”

              Yeah right, our shop charges $85.00’s an hour with $48.00’s an hour in overhead BEFORE the owner gets paid and BEFORE taxes and not counting unproductive hours with ZERO billing. At $85.00’s an hour the company cannot make a profit so you company being $120.00 with major overhead doesn’t either.

      8. I think bartering for services and goods will grow as the economy weakens. People did this for thousands of years. Yes, I believe there will be some difficulties.

        Does anyone know of any towns that have an active bartering system?

        I was told there was a town in upstate NY (near Ithaca) that had an active barter economy and even had their own “town currency.”

        Local people bartered for services and could accept partial payment with “town currency.” Many small businesses in the town accepted up to 10% payment with this local currency. Bills to the town (taxes – ?) could also be paid with partial payment of town currency.

        This encouraged buying local … supporting local farmers, contractors, small businesses, etc.

        Claymation, have you heard anything about this?

        • I have, here are couple of articles

          Sorry I am late to the conversation a have posted a couple of articles one on Ithica NY’s Idea. The second is from the London Telegraph. Seems we are relegated to Non-MSM and Foreign News to find out what is happening here in the US.

          I live in a pretty rural area, which I am sure you know Mom. We barter out Veggies from our garden to a lady who raises chickens for her eggs and chicken poop for our garden. The truth is she is a very nice, very poor senior, so I would give her the veggies anyways, but trading the eggs (which I love) gives her the opportunity to feel like she is contributing something back, which she is. In a barter situation I can see myself expanding the garden from 1/2 acre to a full acre and trading with others. Peace

          Ithaca Idea

          Struggling US towns print their own currency

          • Claymation,

            Thank you for the info. and links!

            Hope you guys are staying warm and didn’t get too much snow over the weekend.

            KY Mom

            • Hey Mom, Quite a bit of snow, but not much stuck. The Kids were excited..Mom and Dad not so much. It was like, here we go again, Is spring yet! My Dad lives in Trenton KY That any where near you? Peace.

            • Claymation,

              Hi! Trenton is in southwest KY close to the Tenn. border. We live in eastern KY not far from the West Virginia border.

              Keep prepping & praying! 🙂

              KY Mom

      9. Did you know that if you barter services or goods then the IRS says you are supposed to pay income tax on the value of the goods or service you received? Yep, it is supposed to be included in your gross income. But, if it’s one ‘friend’ doing a favor for another ‘friend’ and vice versa you don’t have to include it. I would not be surprised if the fed tax collectors don’t try to crack down on this in the future.

        • The IRS is nothing more than the “black hand of extortion”! And frankly they and the FED have been in business far too long! The FED has been nothing but a cancer since its inception in 1913! Screw them!

        • This may be true, but, well, good luck if the IRS can prove the value, frequency, or quantity of that barter activity.

          • I think we should adopt “Earl Pitts; American” point of view of the IRS. Namely, annually, we put all of our cash on the front porch, load up behind a barrier, and invite any of them to come up and collect whatever they think they can carry off. (that was meant to be funny, so don’t be gettin’ your panties in a wad…gotta keep our humor in times like these and those coming)

            • Scott – your comment reminds me of a sign I saw on a garden fence several years ago: “Our dogs can make it to the gate in 3.5 seconds – can you?”

          • The IRS only knows what is reported to it by third parties, without so much as a signature as evidence. That can ONLY be tracked by SSN. If you do not use one, the IRS can not do anything even if a report is made.

            The IRS can not prove anything, even in cases where things are reported. It relies on “voluntary compliance” so idiots can donate large portions of the value of their earning to it. Why do people continue?


            OQ, you are still scared of the corp and have not yet taken the time to learn the law.

            There is only one “person” who can say if you owe a tax to anybody. YOU.

            No, your determinations cannot be challenged in court. They are political questions the courts can not address.

            Assert Sovereign Immunity under Title 28 and the courts are left with hearing a political question which the law forbids it to do, or dismiss the case. There are no other options, even in a corrupted court.

            If you would rather give your money to those who threaten to do what they can not do, go ahead.

            Me, I have no fear of the IRS. After all, IT doesn’t exist. Beside, it can only tax those claiming to be officers, employees, and elected officials of the United States. That’s not me.

            Why so many idiots still send anything to it is beyond me. They have a far greater chance of being investigated and raped further by filing papers than they would otherwise have if they would not file at all. Those who have filed have already admitted to being guilty and accepted a fatal legal disability in their defense.

            To each his own.

            • How many folks have gone to trial and based their argument on your philosophy? How many won? Names & citations, please.

              Seriously, I am not trying to be confrontational but it seems to me that many have gone to prison claiming they do not have to pay.

            • Point one: I tried three of the links you posted. Not one came up as a valid address.

              Point two: Here is a valid website that pretty much says it ain’t voluntary. And when I notice the first individual they mention was sentenced to 13 years in the federal pen, well I am pretty sure your legal advice is worth what you are charging.


            • sorry, I put a space between the http: and //. remove the space and try again.

          • “OQ, you are still scared of the corp and have not yet taken the time to learn the law.”

            I don’t have the time and spare money required to wait for a months-away court date while having little-to-no income (due to garnishment) to buy food, pay rent, etc.

            Now if you can point to a *valid* court case proving you right under those exact conditions, then please post it.

            • POA….All those that have gone to court have had a SSN and a form W-4 attached to their earnings, pleading
              guilty before any trial ever started. They are entering the Court to answer for the fiction, but have no voice. Many hire attorneys, which makes them wards of the state. By all means, if you are forced to use those instruments then you had better live up to your end of the contract, which is to be treated as a slave.

              OQ, there will never a be a court case using the Sovereign Immunity claim because the court can’t rule on it and dismissed cases are never published. It will not work if you are representing a SSN or working as a government employee under a form W-4.

              Those things are required for corp employment, but nothing else. I don’t use either of them so I do not worry at all.

              At the minimum, if someone quit filing today it would take at least three years for the IRS to even notice. Then, they would send you a letter. If you ask them for proof you owe the tax, they will stall you out for months and never reply. Sooner or later, they will come in and take your money if (and only if) it is tied to a SSN and W-4. It is, after all, their money.

              But you gave it to them.

            • “OQ, there will never a be a court case using the Sovereign Immunity claim because the court can’t rule on it and dismissed cases are never published.”

              Actually, most state cases (and all federal ones), dismissed or not, are public record:




              The only way it could not be “published” is for it to be expunged.

            • GC: That’s not entirely true… other post has links and is awaiting moderation (due to the presence of links).

              Fact is, the only way you can get a case to disappear would be for you, the (potential) defendant, to have the records expunged.

            • “those that have gone to court have had a SSN and a form W-4 attached to their earnings, pleading
              guilty before any trial ever started. They are entering the Court to answer for the fiction, but have no voice. Many hire attorneys, which makes them wards of the state.”

              First point. It is difficult enough to succeed as either an employee or as a business owner. Therefore I would posit that anyone without an EIN or SSAN (which pretty much means you cannot have a bank account or cash checks) worked or ran their business to profit in noodles or compost neither of which really interests the IRS or anyone else so the lack of EIN or SSAN simply means you ain’t going to court.

              Second point. You assert that by the simple act of hiring a lawyer to represent you in a court of law that you are voluntarily changing your legal status from that as a free citizen to a ward of the state. Until you can post some codified law, rule, regulation or order of a court I am going to call Bullshit. Now you are free to come back and say I don’t know what I’m talking about and I’ll say Bullshit and you will not reference US Code.blah, blah, blah which boils down to the point that you post your BS without one iota of evidence to back up your assertions.

              Don’t even give the court citation then. How about a mainstream news article how Joe Blow earned 2 million bucks, told the IRS go pound sand and walked out of court with all his money?

            • “Those things are required for corp employment, but nothing else. I don’t use either of them so I do not worry at all.”

              So you are a pimp? Drug dealer? Live with yer mom?

              I am pretty sure you don’t have a business dealing with other, mainstream established businesses. How can you show proof of income to qulify for a mortgage? Did you pay cash for your home? Is it worth over 200k? Do you have a car? Do you drive it without a drivers license? How about insurance? Can you pay the medical bills of anyone you may injure in an accident or do you just let the corp woory about it?

            • POA says

              You assert that by the simple act of hiring a lawyer to represent you in a court of law that you are voluntarily changing your legal status from that as a free citizen to a ward of the state.


              Here are some links

              http: //–AttorneyClient.htm

              http: //

              Attorneys (which are not lawyers), as public officers can ONLY deal with public property. Your property became public by its association with an SSN, which is public property.

              There is only ONE who can stand up and claim your Sovereign status, and that is YOU. If you are “represented” by an attorney, a public officer, then you must also be a public officer and he must speak for you while you stand without a voice. If you represent a SSN, you are unlicensed to speak for it.

              You can not even participate in ANY proceeding that involves an attorney or other public officer without being in violation of the law as soon as you answer to the “charge”. If the other party has an attorney, there is no one with standing to make a claim against you.

              If you would like to find out more about your IRS and where it came from you can read this

              http: //

              There are many such Memorandums of Law at the SEDM web site. All supported by the “laws” and codes themselves, as well as decisions of the Supreme Court. They really make the law easier to understand.

              The most important point you will learn is that the ONLY one who can make a determination about your tax situation is YOU. No one can challenge your determination once you make it.

              As for my business, I have several web sites that sell affiliate products, and a couple of my own products. I also build web sites for local businesses, which was started more recently.

              I am not here to spread BS. I am here to help the people who read what I write, and are willing to take the time to study the Law, so they can understand who they are and how to determine if they have a tax liability, and how they got it.

              Do you owe any tax to the IRS? Not for me to say. Do I owe any tax to the IRS? Absolutely not.

              If you want to continue getting tax advice from the IRS (which can not be held accountable for bad advice, even in writing), then go right ahead. It is your determination to make and nobody else’s.

              The law is very clear, as are the tax codes. They are two different from different sources, but say the same thing.

            • POA says

              So you are a pimp? Drug dealer? Live with yer mom?

              I am a sui juris business Man engaged in lawful activities that involve exchanging my labor and services for equal value, on the soil on a state of the union.

              You, OTOH, are apparently a public official with a legal domicile in the District of Columbia, acting as Trustee/Beneficiary, whichever is more convenient and profitable for the state under the circumstance, for a Social Security Trust owned by the United States.

              Neither or us are law breakers, just our laws come from different sources under different authorities. The choice of law is yours to make. Make your decision wisely.

            • Here are the US Codes concerning withholding agreements and PROOF in the codes that “wages” can only be earned under an in force VOLUNTARY withholding agreement. If you do not volunteer, you can not earn “wages” under the tax code.

              http: //

              See page 32-33 for your confirmation with codes that all withholding agreements must be voluntary, and that no taxable “wages” can be earned without a form in place. Furthermore, you can terminate your agreement at any time.

              As I said, the law is plain, as are the codes.

              As a challenge to you, contact the IRS and ask them to show you the specific code or statute that requires you to

              1) Pay any tax
              2) Use or have a Social Security Number
              3) Require your employer to obtain a W-4
              4) Authorizes the IRS to assess you ANY tax.

              I don’t mind digging up bits of the code for you to demonstrate the factual content of my posts here. On the other hand, the IRS will never produce any law or code for you that plainly states you owe a tax. It can not because there is not one UNTIL after you fill out the forms and use the numbers, thereby donating everything you make to the Social Security Trust. You are lucky it lets you keep anything.

              It takes research to fully understand it. Once you do, you can never unlearn what you know.

            • OQ, if you go into the court you admit jurisdiction and are thereby the subject of the tax codes the court ADMINISTRATES.

              The only “answer” that can be given the court is the assertion of Sovereign Immunity and move without an answer to Dismiss for want of personal jurisdiction, or the courts inability to address the political questions that arise from asserting SI.

              You must also correct any error on the summons you received, or to the identity of the proposed “defendant” that you are being held to answer AS. If the suit or charge references a SSN and you answer for it without FIRST asserting who you REALLY are, you deserve what you get and will get it for being stupid enough to show up at the proceedings as the representative of government property.

              There will NEVER be a published case on this. Any time someone wins against the IRS, the case is mysteriously stamped DO NOT PUBLISH. SEDM has some examples of that, i believe.

              It seems the both of you are still under the impression that the law comes from the corp instead of God. Gods Law is mandatory, ALL other law is voluntary.

            • OQ, I read your links and they appear to be only for matters that were resolved without jurisdictional challenge. They must keep every case over which they have jurisdiction, but CAN NOT keep a case over which it does not.

              Many cases now, especially against the government when the precedent would not be good, are intentionally unpublished to prevent them from getting out to the public to be used against the corp.

              If you are looking for proof, look at the “laws” and “codes” they are attempting to enforce against you. You can never argue those codes in courts, to do so would make you subject to them by your use.

              Sovereign Immunity is simply a jurisdictional challenge that can not be addressed by the court, nor challenged by the prosecutor or other party.

              The problem is, only YOU can assert it and fight for it. If you are unwilling to do that, then they will be happy to treat you like chattle property. Theirs.

            • I replied however it showed up right above OQ’s 3:57PM post of Oct. 30th,

              The Law: The word “voluntary,” as used in Flora and in IRS publications, refers to our system of allowing taxpayers initially to determine the correct amount of tax and complete the appropriate returns, rather than have the government determine tax for them from the outset. The requirement to file an income tax return is not voluntary and is clearly set forth in sections 6011(a), 6012(a), et seq., and 6072(a). See also Treas. Reg. § 1.6011-1(a).

              Looks to me like they prety well said what the law is.


            • You can trust the IRS, or you can look to the “laws”.

              The IRS deals with taxpayers, who are by definition working with an SSN and form W-4. For those people, voluntary may have a different meaning since they claim to be earning taxable wages already. If that is you, then paying the taxes associated with that are NOT voluntary.

              The CFR states that the Forms themselves must be voluntary, and the forms alone create a POTENTIAL tax liability. The form is VOLUNTARY, and without it you can not possibly earn “wages” as the laws plainly state.

              It is really simple. If you have an in force form w-4 with a SSN attached, you are a taxpayer that the IRS can address. If you have no form in force, with no SSN, you are a nontaxpayer the IRS can not address.

              If you want to continue seeking tax advice from the IRS, that is up to you. It is like asking a robber how much you need to give them.

              Continue on your merry way as a voluntary slave. I will continue on mine without the slave papers, thank you very much.

              By the way, the courts have ruled that the IRS can not be held accountable for misinformation it provides, and that includes everything on its web site. Do you have anything to support your position that could be used in court?

        • If they have two or more brain cells I don’t think they are gonna demand cash when folks are working for bread & eggs. They only “deposits” that will be made will be delivered between 1200 and 3000 feet per second.

          • Have to agree. If a crisis runs really deep, I wouldn’t want to be the one trying to collect cash. A lot of people won’t be in the mood for an “audit”.

        • I believe when TSHTF to the point of no currency being available due to an economic collapse, the IRS can kiss our hineys.

          • I believe they can do it now.

        • Looks like my “circle of friends” just expanded.

          Lots of sharing, helping, loaning, even a little “back scratching” but ABSOLUTELY NO bartering going on here Mr. IRS man! 😛

          • Yes, lots of friends working together in our community, no one here does any of that bartering stuff. Just having a garden party today, picking apples and such 😀

      10. Local currency – there’s an idea that may return. It’s been done before. Ever hear of wooden nickels? Seems to me that several communities out west have tried it recently too. Trouble now is that it’s not fungible with FRNs, but once the federal system implodes, that problem won’t be so troublesome.

      11. I love the concept of barter plus it improves community relations. There are governments that consider if one barters for a “profit”, one pays the appropriate tax. Just goes to show the government always has it’s greedy paws in people’s pockets.

      12. Gonna be such fun times, like going back in time.
        Fred told me I can probably get a job down at the quarry, I just have to talk to Mr Slate. And I sure do need the money, Betty and my anniversary is coming up, and she jealous of Wilma’s new ring which Fred bought her, even if Dino swallowed it.

        • Your dating yourself, clever though. I can remember before Pebbles was born and they ran a contest to name her.

          My how things have changed. I don’t know about everyone but relative to today the darkest days of the cold war look comforting.

          • Dang, I remember we ate supper early one night and all ran into the den to watch the “premier” when it first came on. It was prime time.

            Do you remember at the end when Fred was banging on the door yelling for Wilma the camera would pan back to show the town of Bedrock and there was a billboard advertisement for Winston cigarettes?

            • Oh yeah, the good ole days 🙂

              “Winston taste good like a cigarette should”
              or is/was it….
              Winston taste bad, like the one I just had 😉


              “You can take Marlboro out of the country but,
              You cant take the country out of Marlboro”
              “Come to where the flavor is, come to Marlboro country.”

              My only question is, why is marijuana illegal, but cigarettes are still legal and available(for a price), when cigarettes are clearly and undebatably bad(cant advertise them anymore) for anyone who is stupid enough to smoke them???… (hint – the answer sounds like honey), but one cant smoke them anywhere? what a nutty world.

              I actually quit smoking when the lies were exposed, the lawsuits started coming and they started labeling the packs…. heck as it turns out they never should have lied , people are stupid, they still smoke… it is crazy…. a crazy crazy world. WWIILLLLLLMMMMAAA!!!!

            • @POA: I still watch old re-runs of Daniel Boone, The Rifleman, Green Acres, everyday. To hear the way the speech is (storylines) is just so refreshing. I listen to the youth walk down the sidewalk today, and its, hey f-u Dog, you b#$%&, yo, yo homes, pants past the crack of their butts, no self respect. My supervisor at the sheriffs office use to tell dont bother pulling over to tell them to pull up their pants, that they were just looking for attention. No, thats not the way it should be, and probably why things are the way they are, because we just let too many things slide. It is great to go back in time, when people really cared, and had common respect, not so much today!

            • Has anybody seen Wilbur? Gee missus Cleaver that is a lovely dress you’re wearing today. Remember Hollywood Squares?

          • “…relative to today the darkest days of the cold war look comforting.”

            Dunno about that one, man. Growing up scared that your town would get nuked (I lived near naval bases for awhile as a child) wasn’t much fun. Neither were the school drills.

            Hell, I can (barely) remember when there were ciggie ads on television. YouTube shows an old one somewhere featuring Fred and Barney Rubble.

            You know? I wonder why the tobacco companies aren’t doing Internet advertising? They were banned from TV, but there’s not a damned thing banning them from the Internet…

            • MAD (mutually assured destruction) was a plan to prevent a nuclear attack and it’s madness made sense. Today the economic plan is more debt when too much debt is the problem. It’s not a viable plan and it does not make sense.

              Yes I’ll stand by my thoughts and say the cold war was less frightening.

            • As an adult, I totally agree that MAD worked, and history bears it out. Hell, one of my favorite mofos on the planet is General Curtis LeMay. As a former Airman, I know full-on what nukes can do, and damn it was impressive.

              OTOH, as a 7-year-old kid discovering for the first time in his life that a whole city can vaporize, it was no friggin’ fun at all.

              Comparing the two? Meh – money is money – One can live off the land if need be, and an economic collapse isn’t the literal end of the world. We’ve seen quite a few of them already throughout history. OTOH, it’s hard to live off of a land when half of it is radioactive, yanno?

      13. They’re called “Ithaca hours” and that system has been around a long time. Should be a lot of articles about it.

      14. For many of us that live in rural America, barter has been a part of our life for a long time. Swapping grain for hay or renting my tobacco barn for some water lines being run, etc is common here. And somehow, each person thinks they are getting the best deal!


        • you are so right..rural america still has a huge population that barters for all kinds of goods and services…i quilt and sew..i charge by the square inch including the costs of fabric, needles, thread etc.. a consumer of my sewing skills can either pay cash or make me an offer of a trade..i certainly will not turn up my nose at a few bushels of pears, peaches, or apples or even a case of cleaned and plucked chickens..what i find today though is how shy people are of even offering up a trade/barter…i expect when things get remarkably worse they may not be so shy about it. of course, then we will have to worry about the ones who would rather steal what you have no matter what.

      15. Maybe someone in here can give us a top 20 list of barterable Items.

        • Iowa, read that article cited above – What is money when the system collapses?

          The comment discussions might provide some insights as well. Also, read the other article cited about the top post collapse barter items and skills by Brandon smith… Good stuff there.

          And dont forget the Bic lighters per Selco from Bosnia!

        • Why?

        • Indeed… if you’re that dead-set against Coke, just drink Pepsi instead, or avoid soda altogether.

          • Have you ever heard of a Jack & Pepsi? It’s like beans with sourdough instead of cornbread. It’s just not right.

      16. Is this the calm before the storm?

      17. You might be interested to know that in Hood River Oregon, a system was developed in 2004 for bartering. They use a currency called “River Hours”

      18. I have been setting back 1 pound cans of coffee,50 round boxes of 22 lr, 1 lb. vac sealed bags of pinto beans and rice for 8 years. Knew when gw was appointed in 2000 wuz going to come in handy for barter sooner or later. Tobacco or any kind and of course alcohol would be good also.These items aren’t hard to accumulate even on fixed budget.Lighters,fire starters, toilet paper,hydrogen peroxide,jelly canned goods.It’s going to be amazing what a few simple items get you when they’re no longer available.

        • I agree. Even on a limited income, many items can be accumulated for future use or barter… herm..herm..I meant gift giving to friends in the community.

      19. While an internet business is an interesting idea, in a real collapse, (which most of you believe is coming) by EMP, natural disaster, or “financial collapse”, chances are the internet will be down, UPS will not be functioning to deliver your products, and other distribution channels will be broken or non existent.

        I would suggest that people here prepare for something very basic, very local in nature, but useful; that would create or add value.

        Be a jack of all trades and a master of one.

        • I believe there will be a fair business opportunity removing landscape and replacing with raised garden beds. Also cheap, predator proof chicken coops will be in demand.

      20. 3 guys at the water cooler…

        1: So, did you guys hear the news?

        2: You mean aboout the crowds? Yeah. It’s exciting, but scary, too.

        3: It’s pretty wild from what I hear. They say there might not be enough security to protect the people.

        2: Yeah. If you get caught up in the middle of all those people, even the cops won’t be able to help you.

        1: Well, I’m going anyway. I think it’s our duty.

        3: I don’t know about duty, but I promised my kids I’d be there.

        2: You’re not worried about getting hurt?

        3: A little, but this is a once in a lifetime thing. I wouldn’t miss it for the world.

        1: My thoughts exactly. This is history in the making. No amount of unruly crowds or police brutality would stop me from going.

        2: Well, then count me in too. But I’ll need you guys with me for moral support. And, I don’t want to sound like a coward, but we’d probably be safer of we stick together. Know what I mean?

        3: Don’t worry. We’ll be right there with you. This is gonna be awesome! I mean, how often do you get a chance to go to the World Series victory parade in your own hometown? This will be great!

        2: I thought we were talking about the Occupy protests.

        1: I thought we were talking about getting in line for the new I-phone….

        • You’re always good for a smile Okie!

        • Heh – I can order the iPhone online and let it arrive via mail 🙂

          N.B. my missus went to the first day of the Occupy march here in Portland (I know, but you try telling a stubborn-as-hell 6’2″ tall Army veteran that she can’t go to something she really wants to be a part of). Thing is, the cops around here were cool as hell about it, especially when compared to the NYPD.

      21. Hang in there, Manos, you have been a great contributor to Mac’s site! If it gets too rough over there, you are welcome at my little ranch in Arizona… we can barter…. if you go out and beat up illegals, I will make you sandwiches! Sound fair?

        • If you clang a couple pots together wont they just scatter 🙂 Peace

        • Err, technically, wouldn’t Manos, as a refugee on your homestead, be an undocumented alien (at least to the government)?

          I love the guy, and I hate to bring it up, but if you think about it for a moment…

        • Thanks,

          If things go out of control here, i might consider the offer.
          You could use a couple of hands that can handle a piece of “iron”.

      22. I spent a long time thinking about this barter idea. Finally came up with a list of items and skills that I might be able to trade:

        *1959 John Deere tractor, almost runs
        *2 boxes ammo- 34 1nd 1/2 caliber
        *20 laying hens. they just lay in the chicken coop all day, the lazy bums
        *Mr Microphone brand public address system, like new (in case you see a good lookin’ girl and you need to tell her you’ll be back to pick her up later)
        *Popeil pocket fisherman with 100ft of 2 lb test and 4 rusty fish hooks
        *12 cases MREs left over from War of 1812
        *200 rolls GasStationBathroom brand toilet paper (this should be a hot barter item)
        *400 gallons freeze dried water in quart-size packets (otherwise known as 16 boxes of ziplock bags)
        *2 big coffee cans of assorted nuts and bolts (left over from pretty much every car I ever worked on)

        *Dulcimer and banjo tuning
        *electrical engineering (experience limited to hot-wiring tractors and splicing into neighbors tv cable service)
        *genetically modified vegetable gardening instructor. learn to grow beautiful stalks of tomatoes and ears of lettuce
        *food taster, vast experience with chicken fried steak and sweet tea
        *marriage counselor. have gun, will travel
        *baby sitting/child care. have ear plugs, will travel

        Obviously, if the shtf, and the economy collapses, and we’re all reduced to barter to survive….then I’m doomed!….OH, I just remembered the still! Scratch the doomed part. I’m gonna be rich!

        • I am formally applying for the job as “taster” for your spirits.

          • The pay isn’t much, but the benefits more than make up for it!
            I can hear you now…”It has a hint of woody-ness, and a slight corn bouquet. Superb. Plus it’s a great fire starter.”
            Gotta be careful though. Last guy we had working this job ended up singing Waylon Jennings songs til 4am! (Ammmaaaannnnda, light of my life…)

            • LOL.

              Hey Okie, I got a 1948 Gibson garden tractor. Do you remember those?

      23. Dibs on the MREs!

        • They have a 200 year shelf life, so I’m thinkin’ they’re good for at least another 6 months.

          • three king size quilts and thirty quarts of homecanned tomatoes ought to trade well for the tractor..know anyone who wants to trade a mule (to pull the tractor).

            • I hear Francis quit the WACs and is looking for a new job…

      24. This article gave me a great idea for a Halloween costume. When I take my daughter out Trick or Treating. I think I’ll Dress up as “Barter Man” Able to leap large piles of worthless FRNs in a single bound…Strong enough to beat up several Federal Reserve bankers at the same time with just one hand…More powerful then the collapsing economy…over there is it someone spending dollars to make ends meet..No it’s “BARTER MAN”

      25. Regarding the debt service after shtf..

        Some pundits have stated that the banks will re -index our mortgages after they pile on their trillions of derivative based losses on to us..
        in other words..

        we’re screwed..

        guess bartering/acquiring more lead and brass is the most intuitive endeavor for now


        • Re-index? The principle?

          Bring it on. POA is just simply gonna “re-index” his payments. They say I need to send 150% because of inflation, I say consider the amount sent 150% because of inflation, LOL.

          Seriously I cannot see the banks trying to increase the principle when home prices are going down faster than a hooker in Zuccotti Park.

        • Banks ain’t gonna do jack by then… the employees will be too busy trying to save their lives.

      26. hey I’ve been bartering for a long time esp more so now with the economy bad
        it just works itself out regarding the value of things I had an accident 1 month ago and am in a wheelchair for a while so am bartering what I need now for future services from me–mostly with long standing clients things just flow and it works out you just need to establish relationships which I have over 25 years in practice
        being a country vet has so many advantages and has been rewarding specially now when things are getting shaky

        • Heck yeah! I’d barter with ya. We use a Vet quite a lot during the year. Stay safe and get well.

      27. Barter is good sign that the people will work together to overcome the corp fraud. It’s is all about controlling the money. Once people stop using the money, the control is lost.

        The black market is only black for the banksters and the corp they own erroneously referred to as “the government”

        • Black market = Barter market

          If you ask the corporations… but we all knew that all ready 🙂

      28. If it were as simple as the author implied then that person being billed out a $250 an hour could simply work for themselves. Become an entrapreneur! Go for it. Take the risks your boss takes, incur the costs for the infrastruture your boss provides, pay the fees and costs to the state for doing business, hire a lawyer to answer the questions created by a maze of laws, pay an employees salary, benefits, payroll tax, etc. DO IT! Don’t be a wage slave you could be working 12 hours a day with zero guarantees. DO IT! Quit complaining.

        • Work from your home. There is no risk. Screw the state. You don’t need permission. Screw the lawyer, he is an officer of the state. You do not need to hire anyone or deal with the hassle of it. DO IT.

          If people could only get it through their head that IT IS THAT SIMPLE. Quit seeking permission and approval from the corp to do what God has given you the power and ability to do.

          Walk away from the corp one step at a time until you no longer need it at all to generate an income. Then, and only then, can you get a taste of freedom.

          GWTW will never survive financially in the post SHTF world. If you are not capable of generating corp free money now, it will be too late when you need to. And who will you ask for permission when nobody is there?

          Being able to turn a skill into money will be the highest prized skill anyone has in the post SHTF world. They can make a fortune by selling the labor of those like GWTW who can not do it for themselves.

          • Not really that simple. At least for what I did. All of my customers are industrial manufacturers or services like machine shops, tool & die makers, mines and power generation facilities.

            You aren’t going to get past the front receptionist without at least 2 million in liability coverage, workers comp and all necessary licenses, etc.

            • Some skills can not be turned into barter type profits because they rely on the corporations that are in fact, obligated under those laws. If you deal with them, you are dealing with the corp so it is not corp free money.

              In the post SHTF world, corps will no longer dominate (we hope). Maybe your customers will survive, maybe not. It is what happens if they don’t that is important.

              If your skill set requires large investments before getting new customers, you need a new set of skills more than you need customers. Or a better way to apply the skills.

            • Same here–get pulled over just once by DOT hauling logs without the correct paperwork…yeah, no CDL??? No insurance?? KYU number?? Fed. ID # –‘proper’ license, tires, brakes, etc…..

              Bartering is looking real good now, bring it.

            • JJ

              All of those are very reasonable for someone using the roadways for a commercial purpose. That is actually what the government is supposed to do. Regulate commerce.

              It is when they try to apply the same rules of commerce to the people who are not. That’s when the problem starts for me.

        • It’s easy for the people who have never done it (and never will).

          Some businesses allow self employment without large investments in buildings, etc, but try starting a bakery or mechanic shop with no upfront/ongoing expenses.

          You always hear “pay yourself first”, but in a small business, it usually doesn’t work out that way.

      29. The US AIR FORCE is watchin YOU!

        Spying on Internet Users – Beware the government’s avatars, especially fear your own – Wayne Madsen

        As an example of its practical use, the Avatar Identity Program records all on-line letters to President Obama sent via the White House web site, as well as any searches for Obama on the Internet.

        Our source explained the avatar program by saying, “Every Internet user has a life on the Internet,” adding, “but with the avatar, every user has a second life on the web.” In the case of the avatar, every Internet user has a virtual “snitch” that reports their every action and movement on the web to the government.

      30. IRS Hiring Agents : the IRS is hiring 15,000 new irs agents… making new legal limits to report sales of $500. on a form 1099 or suffer penalties , they’re building debt prisons and arming them new IRS agents with 3 million dollars worth of 12 gauges and .40 cal auto poistols… and the states are passing laws restricting private sales as well with threats of jail time and fines.

        The noose gets tighter and tighter… the writting is on the wall! Welcome to the Fourth American Reich!

      31. Twinkies are the ultimate barter item. Anyone who has spent 16 weeks in boot camp without a piece of cake or a coke knows:

        Twinkies have more appeal than 22L’s.

        • lol, when my hubby was serving in viet nam and other far away dangerous places, his only high priority request was for peanut butter and lots of it.

      32. Keep your eye’s open Nov 9th – 11th 2011… something is up they’re shutting down the internet radio and television broadcasts and running multiple terrorist exercises!!! Hmmmm can we say Prime federal nwo cia israeli jew massoud False Flag Time!!!!

        Heads up people! Lock and Load!

        11-11-11 Just like 9/11 is too powerful a Number for them illuminati to ignore!


        November 9th communications shutdown: A system reboot needed to activate new code?

        By: poorrichard

        I am trying to figure out what kind of national emergency would require cutting all communications, broadcasts and internet use? Maybe an emergency in which the government itself feels threatened by …….the people? If this were a test to make sure the system was intact in the event of an emergency I could understand it. But that isn’t what this is. This is a test meant to ensure that the apparatus is in place and operational in the event the government wants to prevent communication between citizens: this is a test to make sure they CAN shut it all down if they choose to.

        • We used to hear, “This is a test of the Emergency Broadcasting System. This is only a test.”

          One of these days it will be, “This is a true emergency. This is not a test.”

      33. This is a bit of advise to anyone who has a cop kneeling on em’ at a protest or bogus arrest , driving their knee intentionally into you… in a arrest scenario… just reach right up between their legs and give their jewels a nice firm hand shake and twist and pull as hard as you can and don’t let go till either they pass out of you do! ;0p works on the lady piggies as well , they’re just as sensitive as the men there!

        remember : piggy hand shake, grab em”, twist an pull hard and don’t let go till someone passess out! ;0)

        that’ll earn you instant respect in jail… trust me your gonna want that once inside! ;0P psssszzzzt

        • Have a buddy take a video of you practicing your own advice. I am sure we can use it as a training aid.

          Let us know how that works out for ya ! 😉

      34. Gods Creation says:
        October 30, 2011 at 1:45 pm JJ

        All of those are very reasonable for someone using the roadways for a commercial purpose. That is actually what the government is supposed to do. Regulate commerce.

        It is when they try to apply the same rules of commerce to the people who are not. That’s when the problem starts for me.

        You have missed my point entirely—driving 200 miles to Frankfurt for license instead of acquiring them in the county you reside is ridiculously wasteful in time and gas!!

      35. And Ms. GC, regulating commerce to the point of putting a man out of business is gonna eventually grab that regulator and associates in the g(n)uts—when he loses his job because he regulated that business right out of business!!

      36. I have a few services to offer if it comes to that, I’m a mechanic, reload my own ammo, grow my own food, I can weld, and I have several beehives

      37. Japan just blinked and started printing Yen like TP. It’s a race to the bottom.

        • Rut Row!

      38. is your Local Trade Alternative.

      39. Well done by the Greeks. This is their first step to freedom.
        Next step: get rid of the monetarist Euro, which is “money as debt” and introduce a sovereign drahma. GREEKS, BE AGAIN THE OWNER OF THE CURRENCY YOU USE! If the nation needs money let the state print it. One condition: all issued money mass MUST have coverage in the physical economy of the nation.

        See or google:, “The Secret of Oz”, “money as debt”.

        [email protected]

      40. Lucky Chucky says:
        Your comment is awaiting moderation.
        October 31, 2011 at 6:21 am

        I sent this link To Max last week to do a story on. I think it is a very important aspect to what is coming to the local level. If a local sheriff is with you/us, who can be against you/us. read this story at this link and get to know the local law, it could be the most important part of the whole shtf to you and your family. Please read.
        God Bless and be safe. Lucky Chucky

        • Yes, I’ve known this for years..and from what I read, any abc agency, even the IRS, must get permission to enter that county through the Sheriff.
          He has the ultimate authority; can even arrest any abc agency agent if he chooses.
          Sheriff Mack has videos teaching this.

      41. Why the latest eurozone bail-out is destined to fail within weeks…

        (from the UK Telegraph posted on Drudge Report)

        • George Soros: I give the Europe debt deal between one day and three months

          Daily Crux

      42. Hey Mac – check out this link to the USDA regarding projected food price increases… when have you seen a Gov. projection remain unchanged ? They always seems to change the “projections” in whatever direction is “bad”.

        • Thanks Sam

        • What stores have these clowns been shopping at????

      43. The gov. hates when people start bartering, the more people barter the less taxes come in.

        • Wow–state militia…you mean the kind the constitution mandates every state to have…for protection against foreign and domestic violence??
          Wow…just wow!!

      44. Getting back to barter how does one barter for prescription medication that you need regularly?

        I think this is where gold and silver may be necessary.

      45. I think small thing’s that you can have in your pocket’s make it easy to have and barter.Like hard candy.Pocket knife’s. Small two shot bottle’s of rum etc.Nail’s. Small hand tool’s. Tooth paste. Thing’s like this make good item’s to carry and barter.

      46. Sigh – no one has a use for a lawyer.

        I think the saying goes “first, let’s kill all of the lawyers”.

        Thank God I can sew, cook and garden! LOL!

      47. I created a site hoping to attract barters to post their goods for trade
        As this was just created yesterday it will take awhile to get people to show up, so please don’t expect much right now. If there are folks from other countries that would like me to add your country please let me know.

        I think its time we all get use to and practice the art of bartering as this may soon be a way of life for us.

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