Advice From A Collapse Survivor: “RUN!” From Major Cities

by | Dec 6, 2011 | Emergency Preparedness, Selco | 327 comments

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    The following interview  has been generously contributed by Bernie Carr from Apartment Prepper. If , in the event of a worst-case scenario collapse, you plan on bugging in and riding out the storm within an urban or suburban dwelling we recommend giving Bernie’s book The Prepper’s Pocket Guide: 101 Easy Things You Can Do to Ready Your Home for a Disaster a serious read.

    In the interview below Bernie discusses post-collapse strategies with Selco of SHTF School. You may remember Selco from a previous article which included a first person account of what it’s like to live in a world where there is no electricity, no gas, no heat, no food, no clean water and violence knocks on your doorstep day and night. Basically, all of those Armageddon scenarios we bring up regularly on this web site and others, except Selco is not speaking theoretically.

    There is no better information we can acquire than that which comes from those who have lived through it. We thank Selco and Bernie for allowing us to share the following with our readers.

    Food for Thought from Selco Who Lived Through SHTF
    By Bernie Carr

    A couple of weeks ago, I recommended the link to SHTF Survival Q&A: A First-Hand Account of Long-Term SHTF Survival when I posted Quick Post Today.  I was fascinated by the first hand account by Selco, a man who lived through a SHTF scenario during the Bosnia collapse in 1992.  He described what it was like to live for a year in a city with no infrastructure:  no running water or sewer, trash pickup, no electricity; no food available, currency was useless and no rule of law.  For many of us urban dwellers, this would indeed be the dreaded SHTF situation, unlike anything we have ever faced.

    Selco had some kind words about The Apartment Prepper’s Blog, and I asked him if he would mind answering questions that I had always wondered about.  I sent him a list of questions and he graciously responded.  I posted the responses “as is.”

    Question 1.  On the forum where you described your experience of being under siege, you mentioned that you had no electricity or running water.  How did you and your family handle the toilet (sanitary) conditions?

    Selco: We had a small yard and digged holes for toilets, we thought it was temporary so the holes were small but later on we digged bigger ones because we realized this is long and world might have forgotten us. It was not nice but at least we did not do it in the house like many others. Whole area started to smell bad anyway, stench from dead people is worse than a bit poo.

    Question 2.  A lot of my readers are women and they would want to know what did the women, children and elderly members of your family do on a day to day basis during the time your city was under attack?

    Selco: The roles were back to hundred years ago. Before war we were modern society, but as soon as SHTF the women, kids and elder stayed mostly at home. They wanted that, no questions. Happened automatically. Did the washing, cooking, cleaning and taking care of sick people. Just sometimes when shelling was a bit less some women came along to gather herbs or MRE if food aid was coming that time. Not often. We always had some man protecting the home, women, children and elderly.

    Question 3.  From all the weapons that you used, what was your preferred weapons for when you went out into the street OR when you were staying at home and why ?

    Selco: Always had the same weapons, TeTe gun / some russian gun and AK47. Simple choice, most ammo for these weapons. We had only a few of those so we exchanged them among us. Did a good job, very reliable weapons. AK47 has good stopping power, just not very good on fully auto. Can make a mess out of a human.

    Apartment Prepper Editor’s note:  An example of the gun described that I found was the Tokarev TT pistol, a Russian made gun.

    Question 4.  A lot of apartment preppers will probably decide to stay in their homes and this has raised a lot of discussions on the pros and cons of staying in the city.  Some people say that by staying in the city, the infrastructure will be restored first, and that those living in the countryside would be attacked by roving bandits.  The other side states that those living in the countryside have greater chances of survival as they would be more self-reliant and not dependent on resources from the city.  Based on you and your family’s experience, which would you prefer and why?

    Selco: RUN!   If you lucky yes, city might be better off but if not it is so much worse. Bug in for a few days until first madness settled and then bug out. Also depends on the weather. Might stay at home in winter and risk getting robbed / murdered instead of going out and freezing to death. Only run if you know where you run to.

    Apartment Prepper Editor’s note:  I was very curious about the answer to this question.  Intuitively I believe it would be bad in the cities in a total collapse.  I would like to be able to leave, but like many city dwellers, currently do not have the means to own a designated place.  We would need to decide on a destination that we can run to, should it get to that point.

    More from Bernie Carr at The Apartment Prepper

    You can follow Selco’s story at SHTF School and learn how he survived one year in hell. 



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      1. Glad I live 12 miles from the nearest town!!!

        • Depending on the situation, 12 miles may not be enough. If you live 12 miles from Los Angeles, you’re boned. If you live 12 miles from some tiny town of 3,000 people, you may want to consider living a bit closer to town, if only for the protection that the community can provide.

          Consider this: a healthy human being can walk up to 30 miles in 12 hours across normal somewhat level terrain. As long as the temperature is tolerable, he keeps a straight line, and has no major obstacles(the average human walking speed is 3 miles per hour), he can do it. An athletic human being can push up to 50 miles a day under those same conditions. If our ordinary guy is stressed and trying to avoid trouble, he can still do up to 20 miles in 16 hours. If he has a family and small kids with him, he can do 10-12 miles in that same 16-hour time period.

          My own personal speeds can have me push 80 miles through the Cascades in two and a half days (over hiking trails), with only a few hours of sleep, and some time spent on the food & toilet bits. This is roughly what it would take to walk to my new (tentative) home from work if the driving option was a no-go. Given the motivation (get home to the missus and community before the refugees get there), I would certainly be sufficiently motivated to do it in even less time.

          That brings me to this: The best summary of the article is this: “Only run if you know where you run to.”

          If you don’t know where you’re headed or why, you’re gonna get screwed: The smaller towns will turn you away after they max out their resources. The criminals and raiders will pick you clean. Unless you’re among the first, the countryside will have been stripped clean.

          All your stuff (preps, supplies, community, local knowledge, etc) is at home. If you have no clear claimable bug-out location, my best advice is this (like Selco mentioned): Batten down the hatches until the initial madness ends, then leave only if you know where you’re going and why.

          Watching the TV show “Beyond Apocalypse” in the History Channel got me to thinking… the wife in that story kept saying “We need to leave! We should go to Idaho!” (they were living in LA), but she never said *why* that destination was worth it, how they expected to get there, or what would be waiting for them if they did.

          I realize that sometimes you just have to leave, no questions asked. OTOH, *if* you have a bit of time to sit and think about it, then think it through before pulling the D-Ring and bailing out.

          • I live in a small unincorporated community, everyone knows everyone, north of a small town in oklahoma

          • I agree with you 100% leaving your house without a clearly defined destination, plan on how you will get there and how you will deal with the possible hurdles on your way is risky business.

            I have seen the show you mentioned on the History Channel, and it is called “After Armageddon” The woman who keeps screaming they should “go to Idaho” is probably typical of how many unprepared and some prepared (sorry that is reality- not everyone has the mental strength)folks will respond. Great show for getting people to think a little past their comfort zone.

            OQ -Great post!

            • watched half of the 90 min show on youtube today, pretty good google youtube after armageddon 1/9

            • ~DPS @ 12/06/11 (3:26pm)~

              As an alternative to ‘injection therapy’, buy the 4oz bag of Oxy-tetracycline (tractor supply / southern states) & keep in the freezer it’ll be good for +10 years or as long as the grid stays up (+6-12 months @ room temperature).

              Kitchen test = dissolve 1 teaspoon in 8oz glass of water observe that solution does not turn milky yellow! If so its rancid & poisonous! Discard immediately!
              A clear / transparent yellow = GOOD!!!!

          • Are yous re the title to the show is “Beyond Apocalypse”?

            I am searching for it on Netflix AND History Channel website and not finding it??

            • Not 100% sure… let me look it up:

              Ah – “After Apocalypse” was the title. My apologies for borking that.

              It is a hypothetical story of a family in LA who survives a global pandemic that wipes out civilization. The good part was all the commentary that was given throughout, explaining some things that are pretty damn solid insofar as prepping is concerned.

              The synopsis:

              Dad was an EMT, Mom was some sort of professional, and they had a teenaged boy (around 14 I think). Lived in a nicer neighborhood in LA. They bug in for about 12-16 weeks or so (can’t remember quite) until the looting got too close to their home, so they bug out. Can’t drive anywhere out of LA, so they walk out via the drainage canals. Manage to stumble into more than a few close calls that illustrated various points of survival that the commentators explained. They get turned away from a small town somewhere by an armed posse, eventually stumble into a small town in Nevada, but realize that the authorities there are going full-auto batshit crazy. They eventually strike out and find some nondescript small town taht takes them in because Dad’s a medical guy. They do well for a couple years, then Dad cuts his hand on a thorn but has no antibiotics – it eventually kills him. They then shoot ahead 25 years, where the kid grows up and works in some sort of mud-brick commune, out in the desert somewhere.

              The story by itself would be cool if they fleshed it out a bit, but as it stands and with the commentary, it is very excellent, and goes a long way to explaining to someone why they should prep.

            • D’oh! “After Armageddon”

              I’ll quit screwing up now, promise.

            • I was just getting ready to humbly ask “are you sure it isn’t After Armageddon, cause that is all I am finding”

              LMBO thanks

              infection from a thorn killed the man….that would suck royally to get taken out by a thorn!!
              Talk about a “thorn in your side”

            • BJ,

              After Armageddon aired on the History channel 12/19/2010

              Good show makes you think about picking up more antibiotics


            • “infection from a thorn killed the man…That would suck royally to get taken out by a thorn!!” And that is why we bought antibiotics online from Y’all should check it out! We got ours and are very happy with what we got!!

            • BJ,

              Also if you are looking for antibiotics check out your local vet supply stores, you can still buy old fashion penicillin , read a article about this on another site, it is safe for humans and keeps a very long time if keep cold. Down side is you got take a shot to receive, I Hate Shots..LOL
              Look into it.


            • Well this blows, I can’t find anywhere on Netflix or History Channels web site…bummer I wanted to watch it

            • Yes, I have looked into fish antibiotics for after SHTF

            • Awesome Beefcake, thanks!! I didn’t even think to look on youtube for it

          • The TV show on the History Channel is called “After Armageddon”. (OC, you were close.) The premise is there is a pandemic on the scale of the Spanish Flu that killed 50-100 million people worldwide, only this time, air travel, crowded cities, non-nutritious food, and an abundance of toxins and pollutants have made it far worse. The infrastructure breaks down and the family in LA (along with the rest of the world) is facing a SHTF scenario. Click my name to get to the link so you can watch the full show online. Frequent readers of SHTFplan will find the show interesting, I guarantee it.

          • You make some great points. Anyone who thinks about bugging out, better have a plan already in place after a collapse hits. The biggest question, as you mention, is –where to? You absolutely must have a better reason for leaving, than staying. I live in a semi urban area, not far from a large town, but I am going to stay on my home ground. Unless I went out of state, to relatives in the farmalnd, which is a possibility, I plan to stay at home. I feel it is my best chance at survival. I have supportive neighbors, who know how to take care of themselves, and have known them for over 30 years. this is my best bet.
            With that said, in any situation, critical thinking, without emotions is needed. Only then can a family man make the best decision. costant re-assesment of conditions needs to be made. never stop asking–“what if’? again, very good assesment odd questioner.

            • Here’s a good quote from General Eisenhower about plans:

              “In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.”

              We are all planning for a SHTF scenario. But don’t make plans. There are simply too many variables.

              Have a great night everyone,

          • @OQ: Great post and great advice!

            Another point to consider is to have a plan in place to get your immediate family back home before you hunker down. I’ve worked this out with my daughter, who is currently about a 3-hour drive west of my home. I gave her a walkie-talkie, with directions to turn it on only when I am inbound to pick her up. She has a mini bug-out bag, with instructions to only use it in an emergency (like when I’m coming to pick her up). She turns on the walkie-talkie when I’m an hour out, and she has three separate destinations to meet me, all id’ed by letters in the alphabet. Backup frequencies to shift to can be coded and sent to her. I also have extra filled gas cans and food/water to use for the round trip.

            On the return trip to Fort Apache, she is (literally) riding shotgun.

          • I think most people forget that when you are walking 80 miles a day…how much gear can you carry? Can you hump 1000 rounds, an AK47, food, water, etc.?

            • I’m good for 40 pounds maximum, but I doubt I’ll be carrying even that much. Why? Because I’ll be trying to get home to where all my stuff is, not striking out as a refugee.

              Hope that helps a little.

          • As I recall (having watched it several times), she had family in Idaho and that is where they eventually ended when they could no longer survive LA so it appears she was correct.

        • let’s try this again, my comment disappeared, @OQ, I live in a unincorporated community, where everyone knows everyone, north of a town in Oklahoma, won’t be as bad as living near L.A., or any other major city for that matter

          • I used to know a pretty good chunk of NE Oklahoma (I’m originally from Arkansas) – good country to live in, even if it is a little prone to tornadoes on occasion. My picks would be somewhere near Miami or Vinita, but I’d be just as cozy further East, nice and deep in the Ozarks.

          • ~M73~

            If you’ve got a shop & skill-sets = to your handle…folks will be defending you!!! Your knowledge / skills will be essential when the rebuilding phase begins!

            • Small shop, but no lathe or mill YET!!, will have very soon

          • Osage county native here Machinist. Where are you at?

          • …and your point is?

            Oh, you’re just bragging? How very helpful.

        • The apartment prepper may want to try to meet other local preppers. Maybe they could pool a bit of money and buy a group purchase. There is strength in numbers anyway and other preppers would have similar goals to a certain extent.

      2. I would venture to guess that a similar collapse here in the Unites States would be MORE horrific than it was in Bosnia. The United States has too much racial and cultural disparity among its population, in addition to a sizable underclass of people who are utterly dependent of government entitlements, to imagine anything less than unbridled brutality and chaos in the face of a WROL scenario.

        • Ken agreed, Then you add in the distances between and the sheer number of people in this country, getting help to rural areas would probably never come. As the the government playing the numbers game would see that they could help more people by helping those living in the city first and leaving other more less populated areas to fend for themselves.

          • “…leaving other more less populated areas to fend for themselves.”

            And that is just fine with me….let us fend for ourselves. It is not the role of Government to save us…it is our personal responsibility to take care of ourselves and family members. I think back to Katrina and those people just sitting around on the freeway ramps…crying for the government to help them and getting very angry because it was taking so long…water, food, blankets, etc… I kept thinking, why don’t you get up and help yourselves and those around you. While Katrina was tragic devastation…they did have warning.

            • One thing that sticks in my mind is all the scenes in Haiti where there are three people trying to dig a survivor out of the rubble and 1000 more in the same camera shot standing around watching.

              People could see what a nightmare the superdome was, but stayed anyway, and more were still arriving. Never could understand the logic behind using that building with it’s wide, open span roof. Wouldn’t seem to be a good place during high winds.

          • Hello, hope you are all well tonight.

            I would love to be able to move to the country… your country. When you live on a rock 700 miles by 220 miles there are not many places one could call remote enough to be safe. Then there is cost, astronomically expensive to buy in areas such as Dartmoor or the peak district, and still not that far from anywhere.

            Nope, for me it is definitely bug in rather than bug out. I took you advice Clay and did a bit of research regarding home and personal defence for the gun deprived. I haven’t had so much fun in quite a while lol. I had no idea how lethal some household chemicals can be when used incorrectly. Security has been one of my major worries, still is, and should be for anyone but I am a lot less helpless than I was.

            Anyway, time to say goodnight, it is -2*C and feels colder in the quite strong wind so I am off to bed.

            Take care x

        • Something to consider:

          Bosnia has US food and humanitarian aid being air dropped to them.

          We probably won’t have that luxury.

          • Agreed OQ, Where I live now I usually bag my limit of Whitetale each year, how long do you think this would last in SHTF situation? Local resources would be pretty used up quickly.

            • OQ and Clay,

              Good evening. Don’t worry about aid. I’m pretty sure that our good friends the Chinese will send help.
              We will eat dry snakes, fried cockroaches, elephant eggs, and eagle eyes. We will drink sino-cola, sino-up, and sino-juice.
              For every shop that closes down in Crete, two chinese shops start business.

            • Mano’s,
              could you fill us in on what is happening right now with the banks?


            • DPS,

              Since September, 15 billion euros fled from the banks.
              Two things are happening:

              1. People withdraw their last savings keeping them safe elsewhere.
              2. People are using their last saving to pay all those taxes implemented by the socio-fascist government.

              We are talking for plain people like you and me. The rich ones, had their savings sent to Swiss, since January of 2010.

              Finally the Greek banks are collapsing. It’s a matter of weeks. They already firing personnel, reducing expenses, closing down branches, selling assets, and selling affiliated banks in other countries.
              The government has given the Greek banks around 120 billion in cash and/or guarantees.

              There is no bank run, in the Gerald Celente’s point of view. But rather a slow decaying process of the banking system.
              But now you can feel the hate, anger, and disgust of the people, every day and in every place.

              Today i gave a box full of my precious supplies for a family in my daughter’s school. Their 4th grade boy, faded in school last Friday. He was hungry since last Tuesday. Both parents are unemployed and their last money were given for the electricity bill.

              My opinion is that the boom is close.

              Be safe, pray for us.

            • Manos,
              I do pray for you everyday brother, If you ever get out of there I’m sure I’m not alone in saying you will have many places to stay here in the USA, however I alos think you are on to something ( Its About to Start) This news indeed breaks my heart, for goverments to let kids go with out food is evil.

              God Bless you,

            • Manos, I pray for you and your family daily. Please keep safe. Thank you for the update. Clay

            • Manos,

              You will be blessed many times over for your kindness to that family. You are providing the best example to your children through your generousity.

              Scary stuff happening over there. How long would you say it has taken to reach this point? I’m curious to compare the point the US is now to that….

              You and your family remain in my prayers.

              ~ Daisy ~

        • Yes Kenneth you are so right but also, there is another thing to consider. The culture here is very indecent and people do not care about each other, do not know each other, and we do not have any experience surviving without a mega store and $1 hamburger meals nearby.

          Selco comes from an area where there are long-standing disputes however, with lots of people wanting to settle them, so it could be that the SHTF scenario in Bosnia was worse than what is coming to USA.

          I tend to believe that our SHTF scenario in USA will be worse than Bosnia, which is why I do want to leave the country with my family in the coming year, if only for a short while.

        • That’s a very good point Kenneth, the US is not nearly as homogeneous as Bosnia and we have serious racial acrimony on a good day.
          Add to that fact that we have many times the weapons, the vehicles & roadways for gangs to seek out prey.
          I think if they lose control and the US has a real hard landing that it will make history books from its savagery.
          My guess is that a post apocalyptic America will reform along racial lines, your skin will be your uniform!
          You may not like it, but it’s the way of nature.

          • That may be true in some areas but in others it will be neighbors sticking togeather or similar religious beliefs or similar political beliefs. I don’t believe it will just be “whoever looks like me”. I believe it will be who thinks and wants to live like me. Who has my values? We will work togeather better on that basis.

            • Good point, I believe you are correct. Lower class neighborhoods will come ravaging, middle class neighborhoods will band together, upper class are on their own.

            • I would encourage everyone to research historical records of previous economic collpases that have happened all over the world. This isn’t the first time this has happened by any means. I think we will have many extremes of behavior. But, in a crisis situation, the natural instinct of many neighborhoods will be to ban together to protect what they perceive as the common good. On the other hand, there will always be the groups of mobs, who will act like animals, and prey on the weak and unpreparred.
              be ready to cover all the bases, and think on your feet. Your gut instincts and common sense will be your best friend. In an urban area, even though one may want to hide out, and lock down, I think the cooperation of a good neighbor will be essential to survival. We all have some hard decisions to make.
              By all accounts I have heard in the last weeks, and by any reasonable examanination of conditions, I don’t think we have too long to wait to use the very preps we have worked so hard for. Things are falling apart very rapidly. My money is on the first of the year for things to get really dicy. The more happy talk the government tries to put out, the more you know it’s SHTF time. Use your common sense to it’s max. It’s almost game time, and we are about to enter the first quarter. good luck all.

          • Dave, Bosnia is in the Balkans which is the root of the word Balkanize which means to divide. they are THE least homogeneous people on earth. It is the historic battle ground between east and west.

            Not trying to argue with you….It just is what it is.

        • The good news is that those who have been trained to sit on their ass and let others provide for them will not last very long. They will be quite dangerous in the short term, however. The truly desperate usually are.

          As to being killed by a thorn injury and the resulting infection, it’s too bad that this EMT did not know about the amazing healing properties of colloidal silver or how to make it. That would have sterilized his wound and allowed it to heal up quite nicely. 🙂

          • Right! Works great for colds through a nebulizer too. I was an EMT and now fix all of the animals. Just stay clear of the snakes and bullets!

            Antibiotics are important, though, and I need to get some pronto.

            Years back, I had the opportunity to visit Japan. Folks there wore surgical masks to keep from spreading germs or getting them.

            I read some time ago that the University of Florida had developed an injectable form of nano silver. I don’t know if it went through clinical trials but sounded promising.

            Silver is very valuable. It is also very cheap at the moment. I suspect that the spot price, along with other commodities, will drop in the near term in sympathy with the market.

            Long term price has to rise due to the money printing that is taking place and increasing due to debt obligations.

            I’ll shut up but I agree that silver is way cool!

          • I’ve heard about colloidal silver…where can I find the instructions for making it?

            • SmokyMtnLady,

              I just googled (binged, actually) ‘making colloidal silver’. There are literally thousands of sites. But scrolling throught the pages, I came across this site that offers a frugal, easily understood way.


              And, hey, USMC…need I say more?


        • I think in many inner cities, it will be back to the wild west days, where the man with the biggest gun, rules the day. But, in the suburbs, I believe many neighborhoods will band together to protect their streets, as this willl be seen as their only chance to make it. Some community leaders will emerge, and the masses will be running on fear and instinctive survival mode.
          But, as in any situation, there are many variables, and the need to think outside normal ways will be needed.
          I think we can all take lessons from our pioneer ancestors, as they travelled cross country for months, westward, in their trip to new lands. Examine how they coped with conditions. How did they survive it all? History is a great teacher if we just study it. What is coming has happened many times throughout history. It’s now our turn to experience what has never happened in our lifetime. welcome to the new normal.

          • Oh, it’s not necessarily the biggest gun. I have a Winchester model 70 in .300 Win Mag. From a solid perch I can put 5 of 5 in the ten ring @ 200 yards. All I need to know is wind speed and distance and I am good to go to 600 yards or better. I have a Leica 1200 rangefinder that will accurately range over 1000 yards so I just have to shoot whatever the ballistics tables say for drop. As far as the wind tho I’m just gonna have to wing it. One thing about 5,6 or 700 yard shooting, I won’t have to worry about the gang banger hitting me with his “nine.”

        • Lets remember people that Bosnia wasn’t a “financial collapse”. It was a war zone. There is a difference, but the lessons are useful.

          In a real SHTF scenario in America you will need to be there to get there, wherever “there” is for you and yours, and you will need to know, prepare, and plan in advance for that BOL.

          If you believe SHTF is imminent and that a total societal collapse will follow, (I don’t) you should change your life style and location to conform to your beliefs. Now.

          OQ: I think you are being wayyy too optimistic about the ability of average people to walk to a safe location.

          I workout ever day. Have for years. Bike 3 to 5 miles a day, almost every day. I just returned from a wilderness experience after a couple of days and about 50 miles into the mountains in my trusty 4×4. In fact I limited my trip and turned around, simply because I thought I was reaching my own personal limits.

          I would not want to have to walk that distance in 3 days, let alone 1. Daylight temps are MILD, nighttime temps are COLD, and near freezing.

          Anyone out of doors anywhere for any extended period of time without supplies and equipment would die of exposure, even if they could handle the stress psychologically. Children would only complicate the problems.

          If you have children, cannot relocate, and a BOL is not within 1/2 to 3/4 of a tank of gas away;

          hunker down. Bloom in place.

          • Wondered when you would weigh in on the subject. You and I live in the desert southwest. We have decent to good weather year around. I don’t believe many here realize how difficult it would be to walk out in the best of conditions. I have done as you just did, take out the trusted 4X4 for a casual stroll in the local wilderness. Can get a little freaky when you are completely alone with the possibility of breaking down, both physically and/or the vehicle. Add kids and you might be toast. Of course, I hope that those here on this forum have more brains than the average Joe out there and are ready for the situation.

            • And of course I hope they are smarter than US and do not go alone! 🙂

            • PS: I HATE when I have to rebuild the road to get unstuck!!! Takes some of the fun out of it, ya know?

            • I know what you mean!

              I took my brother-in-law out one day. Cool place where you can actually park on an arch with a view of the lake in the background. Awesome photo. Anyway, there is alot of slow rock crawling to get there. On the way back, just before dusk, I caught the sidewall of my tire on a rock outcrop and blew it. Fortunatly a flat area was just ahead. Got the spare ready but the bottle jack would not get the Bronco high enough to remove the tire. My brother-in-law looks at me and says “we are screwded now”. I just looked at him, smiled, grabbed the spare and threw it under the Bronco, let the jack down, grabbed acouple of flat rocks in the area and placed them under the jack and up it went. Changed the tire and away we go. Now this guy is a mathmatical engineer for a major computer company down in the valley and he turns and says to me, “gee, I would have never thought of that”. I said what? He said the spare under the Bronco and then the rocks.

              These are the people that will be toast when the SHTF. Fortunatly for him, if he heeds my warnings when and if it goes down, I have prepped enough for all of us.

          • it doesn’t matter what caused it, it was still a collapse

          • I live in the southern Rockies, it got down to -1 last night, and we’re not even into January yet. Temps like -1 for the unpepared can be brutal.

            • I live in NW MT and it would be pretty hard to live in a vehicle or tent in the dead of winter, but other than that it is definitely a great place to live off the grid. Can’t raise much of a garden tho so have to improvise in that area.

              AZ Ready – so true. I mean, these folks don’t even know where the milk and eggs COMES from that they buy at the store.

          • Re: distances…

            There are a lot of variables, but it certainly can be done under normal conditions out here. If you’re single, in good shape, and (like half the schmoes who live around here) run and walk a few miles every morning, then 30 miles is no problem in a day, especially in country that has a bajillion trails. Fortunately, the missus would already be home or damned close to it, so it’s just me I’d have to worry about.

            You’re right about temperature (and weather!), though if you’re dressed right it isn’t so bad. The really hard part will be the snow IMHO, which will cut things down to practically nothing w/o snowshoes or skis. I’ve done more than my fair share of winter camping, so it doesn’t bother me too much. OTOH, I figure under those conditions, I’d be lucky to make just the snowy bits in 3 days or so, and tack on a day on either side of that.

            If it hit right now, I could walk home in literally 10 minutes under any condition. If it hit this time next year, my get-home bag is going to require more than a bit of bivouac, fire, and high-calorie gear for a week or two. It’s this crucial difference that will mean survival versus becoming a human popsicle, which most refugees would end up becoming once they hit the ranges.

            Speaking of which, that makes a damned good point… time of year. In the summer desert, or the winter mountain ranges, the shit gets real, and bugging in may be the only choice you have.

      3. Bug out to where? Why, the hills, of course. This ought to scare those of us who already live there. I live in the Sierras east of Sacramento. There are over a million people in the Sacramento area. Another 60 miles west is the SF bay area with another 6 or 7 million (I’m not keeping an exact count). Where are they all going to go? My direction.

        As has been said before here and on other forums, the gov’t is the problem now, these refugees from the cities will be the biggest problem then. What are we prepared folks in the urban areas supposed to do with them all? It’s not going to be pretty. I can feed my family and a few others, but this is where home protection will factor in…

        I don’t want to do it, but I will.

        • You may not have a choice.

          I would strongly suggest hiding the supplies very well, and banding together to fend off the horde.

        • I live in the same area (generally) that you do. I was just thinking that Sacramento is about 30 miles from Auburn, Foresthill, etc before I read you comment. Rocklin, Loomis and Penryn are even closer than that. But it would be an uphill climb and once you get past Foresthill, you are looking at snow in the winter time.

          I think the foothills are going to be swamped with refugees from the metro area.

          • The foothills will be swamped indeed. Where will all those millions of people go? North to Redding or eventually Oregon? Sure a few will. South-to Stockton? No thanks (talk about going from from bad to worse). They will all go east; many up the 50 corridor, the rest up 80.

            Due to the nature of the terrain, these corridors will be choke points and the worst places to be are near those highways. Even if you have lots of ammo and a defensible layout, the sheer volume of refugees will be overwhelming. ‘Snot gonna be pretty.

            If it’s a slow meltdown, many people will be taken out before they even leave the cities. If it melts down quickly, there will be human rivers flowing out into the urban areas.

            MiVidaLoca; I love it. Mi vida is pretty loca too. Might get muy mas loca.

            • The government has already planned for these millions exiting the large urban areas. They call it a FEMA camp. They know what’s coming, and have been planning for this for a ling time. The turncoats in Washington just passed the reversal of the “posse comitatus” law in our constitution. Now, they can use the military to round anyone up, for any reason they see fit, and take them anywhere they want. What a coincidence—–not.
              Everyone is litterally on their on. Unless you have a specific place to go, and can get there and hide, anyone in the large urban areas wondering around will be rounded up, and taken away. You can count on it.

            • LOL!! Si, Si!

              Stockton is a nightmare now, even without the SHTF! I lived there for over 20 years. I still have family there and I worry about them a lot, but they can’t get out due to finances. I’ve made it very clear that they are welcome to come and live with me if necessary. There’s strength in numbers and my dad is quite the gun expert.

              I think you are right about the slow and fast meltdown and its effects on the population.

        • ~Paddy~

          Per the dictum ‘prepare for the worst & hope for the best’….

          That said, ask yourself:…”What’s the worst case scenario?”

          My answer.) At some point, we’ll see / hear of ‘cannibalism’…

          ——Prepare accordingly & GOD Bless——–

          • Cannibalism is already happening in North Korean concentration camps according to a recent escapee. Coming soon to a community near you!

          • Brings to mind the siege of Masada, where some mothers resorted to eating their own babies.

      4. I wish I could leave the city.

        The sad fact is that in my career field (education/research) there are no jobs available anywhere, urban or rural. I am one of the blessed few to still have a job and health insurance and though we have had multiple pay cuts and layoffs, I am still around, thanks to God.

        I am using my available money to save and prep while I can but if I left my job I would have nothing at all.

        I wish it wasn’t like this, but it is. I don’t really have any options but to bug-in, pray, and hope for the best.

        • You could always get a different job, or explore telecommuting options. Just a thought.

          • yeah because jobs are just so easy to come by in this country..

            really now..we all have to work within what we pie in the sky shit about jobs falling in peoples laps now..thats not going to happen with TPTB that are in contol these days.

            no offence but..we have covered the jobless issues in this country..and it isnt improving any
            no one is going to take the risk of leaving a job they now have that is feeding their family for a possibility job, or one that might go belly up 2 months after getting hired.

            • None taken – just as possibilities, not probabilities.

              The good news is that you don’t have to pack up and take a blind chance… sniff around online a bit. Do phone interviews.

              Sitting there and saying it’s too hard or impossible or whatever is just as bad as intentionally not bothering.

            • I think that North Dakota and that last bit of oil surge might be a good place for people looking to get out of the urban area and get a rural job. It’s the housing there that is the bummer. But either way get out of the cities. A certain president Jefferson had some good quotes predicting this occasion.

              “When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe.”

              “All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.”

              Thomas even has a prepper quote(if you ask me)-

              “Never put off till tomorrow what you can do today.”

        • you are not alone. There are many preppers out there with the exact same problem. That’s why bugging in is the only sane decision. If you prep as best you can, that’s all you can do. Just make sure you have a way to protect what you have—if you know what I mean.

          • Yeah, until the horde arrives in numbers to large to mow down. If they figure out that you have food or supplies, they will kill you. And even if you are quiet about it, they will come marauding around and try to break in anywhere that even might have food. What you gonna do – shoot everyone? Eventually you’ll run out of ammo or they’ll have gunnery too.

            • I don’t believe that…eventually, sickness, lack of food and clean water, and just plain killing each other of will take care of them! And I don’t think that in the first several days they will be roaming around, they’ll be sitting around waiting for the Gov’t. to swoop in to save them…AKA Katrina!!
              Of course, you WILL have a few groups of criminals who will use SHTF for their own advantage…but we have that now in larger cities!!

        • Consider purchasing a small plot of land in an area you would like to run to. It may be the single most important prep you make so protect that paper title as more valuable than gold. For with that and usable post-shtf skills those of us who live remotely in that area will most likely fairly consider your claim when time comes to decide who gets in and who doesn’t. Small gold coins may buy some supplies and seed when you arrive, but I would cache some supplies on the land you buy.

          That’s what I did until I found a job that allows me to telecommute. Then I moved out here full time.

          Like the sign says “No zombies allowed”

          • Are you in La Push ?

      5. I don’t know a lot about the culture of Bosnia, but I am going to hazard a guess the people there are a lot less spoiled than your average american sucking the government teet or even the ones used to a “soft” life. If SHTF here in the USA, you can count on major cities becoming cesspools. Just my assessment.

      6. I have to wonder what constitutes a “big city”. In a few short weeks I’m moving from a city of 460,000 to a city of about 30,000. Would a city of 30000 still be considered “big”?

        I’d imagine that if there was some kind of real SHTF scenario that any military action would focus on major population centers. But who knows… I’d like to live a bit further away from town but it will take time to build the resources (read: $) to be able to do it.

        • In my opinion, you are making a move in the right direction! 30,000 is a lot more reasonable than 460,000 so I would guess you would fare better there! I agree that the cities with VERY large populations would be a focus of government attention, but I wonder if they could really get them under control and would eventually just let the people kill each other off? Only time would tell if it got that bad and I would be glad not to be there.

          As for moving futher away from town… Do the best you can for now until you can manage it. In the meantime, I would look for likeminded folks or even just folks who appear to be more independent minded than others. Every town I have ever visited has a local “greasy spoon” or “watering hole” where these folks seem to gather.

          Best of luck to you and kudos on your move!!

        • Its all a matter of scale. How many zombies will come out of a town of 460,000 vs how many zombies will come out of a town of 30,000? All things being equal, I would rather be in the smaller of the two…I might have enough ammo 🙂

        • Just my opinion here, but to me there wouldn’t be much difference between big and really really big, big is big, and I think anything over 5,000 is big

        • Good question. I had a similar question I had a couple months ago about leaveing a city with 200,ooo in Iowa to live in a city of 30,000 in Iowa. I figured that the state you live in will matter the most. Going from Chicago to 30,000 people Il probably won’t change much, but going from Salt Lake City to 30,000 UT would be a life saver.

          But here in Iowa, I fear moving back to my hometown of 30,000 because that is potentially 30,000 ZOMBIES on the loose.

          The furthest you can get from “civilization”, the better.

          • Is this Iows Boy? The forex trader?


        • If you want food or medical attention, report to the detention center nearest you.

      7. Leave / Stay / Stay then Leave.

        It’s ALL a moot point until it happens. Seriously. No matter what you do there’s risks a’plenty. You’ll only know what to do when it happens. Keep your wits about you. Listen to your gut. If you see masses of people going one way.. might be best to go the opposite. Unless they’re running from something. Hahahaha. Then you’re F-ked.

        Whatever you do DO NOT LEAVE the home without a loaded gun. And PLEASE don’t be a douche bag. For my sake — LEARN HOW TO USE IT! —RIGHT! The one that’ll scare me the most are the idiots that run around with their finger on the trigger.

        • Marc, your douche bag remark is 100% on. Practice, Practice, Practice.

        • Marc,
          I’m really not scared of the people carrying many guns and ammo. I terrified by the man that only carries a scoped rifle. He is the guy that will wait for you to step out and feed the dogs or get more water. Thats when he strikes.


          • ~DPS~

            In truth sir….you’ll never see him, if he’s good!
            You’ll awaken somewhere NOT on this plane of existence!!!

          • I suspect that, while you’re perfectly right, the number of snipers (let alone good ones) are going to be few. Living by sniping means being able to incapacitate (or kill if you prefer) enough folks at a home to get at the goods with little danger to himself. In a town or city this would be nearly impossible due to sheer numbers. On a remote farmstead the chances are better, but this may still mean at least two people, and the second guy is probably going to hear the gunshot.

            In Bosnia, they had snipers all over Hell and breakfast, but they were shooting as part of their ideology, and were supported/supplied by their respective armies.

        • I always think ‘gas’ when these options are many tanks can a car hold in my SUV? is hauling that gas gonna take space needed for food? what if gas pumps aren’t available to refill those tanks taking up precious space? what if others spot my tanks and kill us for those tanks? and lastly, where in this world would we go?? we have no family or friends.

          At age 61 and 63, dh and I are staying put.

          • I am halfway thru Patriots and it said that adding a little gas preservative (?) would make fuel gas last 4-6 years. STOCK UP.

            • STB-BIL OR SOMETHING

            • Iowa,
              I read that and still have it, but if you don’t make at least $500,000 a yr then prepping like the book is not going to workout so well. One Second after, now WOW thats a hard book to put down, finnished it in 2 nights.Still wanna pick up some others like foreign and domestic , but it needs to wait till after Christmas. (Not the holiday)


              Has anybody read foreign and domestic?

            • Stabil in the gas will help but you won’t get 4-6 years shelf life. You will be better off buying AVGAS if you can at a local airport. AVGAS is highly refined, higher octane and lasts much longer than regular fuel. Many small planes sit for long periods of time without being used. The last thing a pilot wants is to lose power a couple hundred feet off the ground because the fuel was bad!

        • you make some excellent points. People will need to use some good common sense, in deciding what’s the best thing to do. I live in an urban area, but within a farming area also. The vast number of people around here have weapons. I feel I have a better chance staying put, and hiding like a mushroom. I rely on my gut instinct, and not the government to tell me what makes sense. Most of the time, your gut is correct.

          • Write down each advantage, dis-advantage and the possible outcome of each possible scenario. Make your decisions based on sound information and prepare for those “what Ifs”.

            That is all that we can do.

            Peace Brother

      8. Many here know that I live in a very rural location. If anybody bugs out of any city my way, with the intent on taking what is mine without asking will find themselves in a world of pain for the few seconds it lasts. Ask me and there is a chance I may help you try and take what is mine or hurt my family all you have done is carried your weapon and supplies to my front yard as a gift to me.

        Sheeple still have this idea that food is plentiful in the country / rural areas. Remember if you live in an urban area, if you don’t bring it with you it aint here. I myself own a large farm house with some room and would proably take in a family or two in the spring if possible but you better be ready to work your butt off!

        • Claymation,

          Well said! 🙂

          Wish there were lots more people “awake” and “prepared” like you and others on this site.

          KY Mom

        • Clay, you and I are only an hour or two apart by car (based on info you have given previously). Once this place gets a forum, PM me if you’d like and we can exchange information to help one another if a disaster were to strike.

          • Sounds like a plan and I love a good plan. I read in a recent post of yours that your employer laid off a bunch of people. Did you catch the axe in that? Wish we had that forum now, I have have some heirloom seeds I would send ya! Peace

            • I did not get the axe. I suspected this was coming when a couple of the other dealerships had “efficiency audits.” I wrote up a plan that cut my workload in and pay in half. This may sound stupid but the person who took my old job is now doing two jobs for less pay than I was making. I make less money but have more free time for other projects, and I still make far more than I would on unemployment.

              I’d rather make less money than work myself into an early grave.

            • Clay, what kind of heirloom seeds do you have? I have 3 different kinds of tomato, and some Hercules, crowder peas that I have been growing for years. I also have some Hales best cantaloupe. Got anything to trade?

        • Let me play the devils advocate. Your post sounds all good and prepper like, but I don’t really buy it.

          I don’t mean to be picking on you specifically but there is this notion that we preppers have, similar to yours, that we have a handle on what’s coming and are somewhat ready for it.

          Firstly, if someone comes to your home/farm to take what you have, what makes you think “they” will be in a world of pain for the few seconds it lasts”? I know we’d like to think and believe the odds are in our favor but that’s not necessarily true. We could be overwhelmed with masses or a more sophisticated “technology” arriving at the front door, and it’s we that experience the “pain for the few seconds it lasts”. It’s noble talk and fires up the hearts and minds of fellow preppers reading it and can get a positive thumbs up, but really, it’s all talk.

          The part about having some room and could take a family or two is another romantic notion filled with incredible dangers and pitfalls. If they traveled as far as they did to get to your place and they have weapons and they are a completely unknown quantity, are you going to sit down with them and say, “Ok, here are the rules and you have to abide by them, i.e. work your butt off, and we’ll let you stay and eat our food”? A simple nod of their heads and they move in upstairs even if they appear totally harmless and willing to submit? If it’s still winter are you going to tell them to come back in the spring when it’s time to plant?

          I’m not being critical of your statements, but the reality is, we’d like to think we are in control of our situations, and maybe we are to a certain point, but if we haven’t established strong relationships with our neighbors and community by now, then we are probably at the mercy of the masses and better know that there may come a time that even living in the country one might have to know when to “run”.

          It’s good to have strong conviction that we are in the drivers seat, but the question is, What are we driving and Are we really in the drivers seat? It’s easy to forecast the coming storm, but when the storm arrives and reality sets in. our sweet caring demeanor can change in a few seconds. Likewise, so can theirs.

          • EA,with all due respect you do not know my specific situation or my complete background background. I have spent the last few years thinking and preparing myself,Neighbors, Home and family for this exact situation.
            As far as taking people in I said “family” It is my belief that a husband and wife with a couple small children would be more than willing to abide by house rules and do some work to ensure their survival. As for the time of year, perhaps they would have to be on there way if they came at the wrong time. As for my world of pain comment, I hope I never have to find out! As a nurse I spent three years with the United States Army Nursing Corp Reserve with all the training that went with it. I feel that I have what it takes to do what needs to be done. Peace

            • ” It is my belief that a husband and wife with a couple small children would be more than willing to abide by house rules and do some work to ensure their survival”

              I disagree, mostly because you cannot gain any idea as to who may show up at your door. The father (or even the mother) may take matters into their own hands, and you have to sleep sometime. You may find yourself in a real bad situation, and they may not lift a finger to help you, knowing full well that once ‘massa is dead, they get to run the show.

              I’m just saying that you may want to really think this through – to the point of having something set up to treat a refugee family as friends and/or peers if you intend to take any in.

          • EA, how about this: make a stand, know your convictions, stay in the grace of God and finally; realize the masses aren’t going to be like a cloud. There will be sparadic groups of people, not an army. Be humane and cautious at the same time. We’ll never be in control of any situation only prepared. And finally, realize that there are a number of us that have been trained (with experience) to deal with these shtf scenerios.

          • Gotta agree here.

            Unless you treat folks like peers, and they work *with* you, not *for* you, then they’re going to realize something that you may find disturbing: They will only remain your employees for as long as it takes to put a knife in your back… then they become the boss.

            May want to keep that in consideration.

            • I agree, I plan on, heck I do, work my butt off and would expect those I work with to do the same, especially if survival is on the line. Peace

            • OQ, Did you forget to change handles 😉

            • Eh? I only use the one. No need or desire to do otherwise.

            • Well, I can tell you guys a little about taking in other folks, as I did it twice last year. The first time, it was my dad, and his wife was more interested in stealing from us and trying to usurp my wife. This is family, mind you. They did severe damage to us before taking off in the night.

              My aunt came in the summer, and her method of helping out was to use the weedeater to kill the currants, gooseberries, and herb garden because she thought we had no business growing them and she didn’t want to hand weed them. She also tromped through our garden and squished plants, unplugged the crock pot because she didn’t want to eat beans, etc. Having folks just drop in and bug in with you may not be the best plan. Both my father and Aunt were unemployed and were basically thrust upon us, but there were issues that I just couldn’t comprehend. She ate peanut butter with her fingers. He snorted some old Tylenol. You just don’t know what people are going to do, even family.

            • KRM,
              Sorry dude,
              But your family sucks from the sound of things.

          • Very good points. It reminded me of the original interview with Selco. He said you could trust family and VERY good friends only. I’ve got a wife and three small kids. NO STRANGERS ALLOWED… post SHTF that is.

            I’ll heed his advice.


          • yes i agree with you..a person can know their neighbors for twenty or more years and think all is well…but do you really “know” your neighbor and friend as well as you think. we took in a couple for three mos after hurrican katrina…at the end of the third month i discovered that one (the male part of the couple) was a raving lunatic and if triggered just right could be a very dangerous person to be around. thank God they are gone and a good distance away (though i would not argue with them being even further away than they are from me). Normal folks are not always what they appear to be…

            • Hear, hear.

              Human behavior interacting with extreme, harsh conditions has the potential to match those conditions.

        • Where do live, with specifics, kinda?

          – Big City Boy Iowa

          • Where do you live, without specifics, kinda?

        • ~Clay~

          Develop a refugee filter program!

          Meaning:…”what skill-sets does your retreat / group lack that you deem essential?”

          Examples.) MD, LPN, diesel mechanic, machinist, former SF trooper, pharmacologist, chemical engineer, moon-shiner or fill-in-the-blank…etc…?”

          I’m rural also, but there are 31 residences on this road of 7 miles. Several are vets & we’ve come up w/ a list & intend upon sticking to the above criteria when the SHTF & the golden horde panic migration begins…

          …if your skill-sets ain’t on the list…SORRY! Hit the road Jack! Here’s a sandwich or a tin of fish to tide you over! Good Luck! Returning would likely be hazardous to you health!

          ***Those that make the cut will be monitored for a given period of time!***

          NOTE.) FYI Miss Daisey, first aid will be given freely! After all, its the Christian thing to do!!!

          • First aid is the Christian thing to do, but if you don’t have a special skill set, nevermind the fact you might be a nice, personable, honest, hard working and maybe even willing and wanting to learn kind of guy…then the Christian thing to do is top tell them to “hit the road jack”

            Hmm?? uuuuhhhh…..ok mayeb I just need to read my Bible again, I must of missed something the first few times through

            • BJ,

              You didn’t miss anything in the bible, you just are not aware of what you were reading, trust me brother when you think you need to study more you will then find out that what you read only makes your values that much stronger. I by NO Means am a bible thumper, I’m tattoed, I’m a biker I cuss’s way to much and most of the time I don’t play well with others. But right is right and wrong is wrong.There really isn’t a meduim ground.


          • I’m glad to hear that first aid and charity will be dispensed. 😀

            If we don’t keep our decency and our ethics in order, how will a civilization re-emerge from the ashes?

            It’s not just about being Christian, for all of you folks out there that are agnostic or atheist. It’s about this question: What kind of world do YOU want to live in?

            Idealistically, I say, answer that question by living like that world exists. Realistically, I say, give until it hurts from the safest distance possible.

            • Thank you Daisy, very well put and I couldn’t agree more!

      9. I live in a small city of 30,000 in a rural state and debate whether to bug out to our mountain retreat (1 hour by highway, 2 hours by secondary roads, or several hours by trail) immediately or stay here for a while. During other seasons there is plenty to do there, but if it happened today, we might tempted to stay here and monitor the situation as long as the natural gas was flowing to delay using up resources on the mountain during the winter.

        • ~PP~

          Hit the road ASAP! If you’re a real preacher & not a preacher for profit, GOD will provide & have your back!

          Conversely, if you’re a John Hagee(sp?) wanna be, stay put… you’re merely a bi-pedal protein resource, some cannibal could use!

      10. Pastor, you’re planning to bug out? I’m curious (no judgment, just an honest question) how you arrived at that decision to bug out away from your “flock.” It seems surprising. Do you preach about preparedness to them? Have you decided they’ll never listen until it’s too late?

        • Was kind of curious about that too.

          I figure at my local parish, our priest (great guy, sharp as hell) will likely remain at his post, as will most in the area. OTOH, I would expect that of him and his kind, as they’ve given their entire lives to God in a way that most men either can’t, or won’t.

          All that said, I wonder if there are any priests, preachers, deacons, rabbis, imams, whatever that have plans for bugging out their whole local flock?

      11. “if you see a large group of animals, all running in the same direction, start running with them”- unkown

      12. “Bugging Out” is filled with untold dangers, unless one has a specific destination pre planned , i.e. a well established second home not “too far” from existing home. If the thought is to just Bug out, chances are traveling into the unknown will be met with more trouble than staying put, even if it’s in a city.

        By now, for those city dwellers who have an inclination for prepping, if tactics and strategies have not been laid out for staying put and laying low while the storm passes over, then it’s probably too late and the romantic notion of bugging out and living off the land up in the hills will be met with the harsh reality of life without shelter, food and constant fear. Better to at least have the shelter, food and know one’s surroundings, minimizing fear, while having the capacity to make clearer decisions under duress than the other option.

        • EA, don’t take this wrong but are you a fearful person of the unknown or just what you can’t control? I mean no disrespect, your phrase ‘romantic notion’ is nuts. I have a bug out plan and bug out house that I look upon as a gift from God and a means to survive and protect my family. Romantic? Please, the whole idea of prepping is for survival not romance.
          Granted, probably your input is cautionary to people but it is a tad to romantic itself: ‘the unknown’ ‘untold dangers’. You read a lot of fiction?
          The one thing that changes everything one believes(self,reaction,etc.) when the first bullet is fired.
          Be safe, stay in His grace and have more confidence in your ability to make it through the hard times.

        • One caveat I’d like to stick in there…

          If you have a place to bug out to, I’d suggest getting there ASAP. Otherwise, by the time you get around to getting there, you may find the place occupied by someone else, and they may well be armed and capable of keeping it.

      13. Mac, The SHTFSchool link you posted is very enlightening, Just got done browsing there and I am very impressed. Thanks for the link. Peace

      14. Regarding the topic,
        I use a technique of hiding things in plain view
        And it is remarkably effective.
        I am sure it could be utilized in addressing any dwelling.
        To make your place not stand out and a bit uninviting or a little mor difficult target.
        If you ain’t got a boom stick if all else fails,
        Than you are going to end up someone’s bitch.

      15. Don’t leave. Stay and play. The fight for our survival isn’t in the hills, it’s in the cities.

        • 5 people (so far) who live in the hills liked this comment.

      16. Of course you should run when the SHTF.

        But all the advice about moving out of the city now or moving to the America Redoubt is almost impossible. People have jobs, lives, etc and can’t pick up & leave so easily.

        • I don’t know your situation, but I generally disagree with this premise. Anything is possible when you put your mind to it. The sticking point is that packing up and moving out would most definitely bring about changes in your standard of living. You might have to take a job doing less-than-desirable work. Not only that, you would face scrutiny of your family and your peers for having made such a “foolish decision.”

          But again, anything is possible. The question then becomes, “Are you willing to make the sacrifices necessary to make the transition?” Most people are not. But then again, I don’t know your situation.

      17. I remember reading a post from one of these bosnia guys a couple years ago, he said (i paraphrase) I knew it was comming, had prepaired all i could, but it is amazing what a shell from a t-72 tank can do(comming through the front door of his house) to your well thought out plans. I guess the guy just made it out of his house with a gun, and a small bob, and bout starved to death, due to not being able to find any game, because EVERYBODY was hunting.

      18. Just read an article on Greece. There is an ongoing run on Greek banks. Not much left in the banks there. The run is speeding up.

      19. I’ve posted before that there may be ” Green Zones ” created where a strong military presence exist. These areas are sure to have checkpoints that will eventually control who leaves and who stays. Outside of that will be the ” Red Zones ” that will rival the old wild west. Might even see areas where the locals take out bridges in an attempt to isolate communities from the “unfriendlys”. A truckload of trouble could ruin your day quick.

        • My survival retreat is in a community formed by a natural cul-de-sac (a hollow). We can isolate our community from outsiders by controlling one bridge. Of course there are other passes that can be hiked through if one knows where they are. Fortunately, the trees are too thick to be seen on Google maps.

          I am concerned about check points, but there are rail trails behind my house in this small city where we live and they will take us most of the way.

          • I wish you were MY pastor…so far, anytime we try to bring up the economy,prepping, etc…he laughs and makes a joke about it! And we have even asked about starting a food pantry in our church, to help out church members who are having a hard time, or lost a job…we never heard anything back!
            It’s very hard to hear all the time that we “just need to trust God”, when my response is, Joseph trusted God, but HE prepared….Noah trusted God, but HE prepared…Joseph trusted God, but he took Mary and the baby Jesus and fled to safety…We are prepping and running if it looks like we need to…and going to trust God the whole time!

      20. Barring a natural disaster that makes it completely impossible, I’m buggin’ in.

        I live in a city of 130,000 people. Our new place is very “neighbourhoody” with nice little homes that are close together. While I’d love to be able to hie myself out to the boonies, YESTERDAY, it isn’t financially possible or realistic.

        If we were to bug out, quite simply, there is no where to go, particularly on foot. To get to a “retreat” with extended family, we would first have to get through Toronto, with a population of two and a half million people. To go South, we’d cross the US border and be in Buffalo, with its already high crime rate. It’s just not realistic to leave.

        Anyhow, my plan is to buck up the defenses,stock up, and prepare for whatever comes our way. After the chaos we could be fairly self-sustainable at our little home. The situation would be bad with a population this size, but I think the alternative taking off would be far worse for a woman and two teenage girls.

        • Yep. I’m willing to wager that a disturbing number of guys in here fantasize about pretty young female refugees in ways that would make you want to reach for your firearms. 🙁

          • It’s a sad reality, OQ, but it would be naive to think otherwise.

            Look at the wars in Africa: they use rape as a punishment, a method of interrogation and just plain-old-because-they-can. And this is the actions of the military.

            People have to be aware, the mob mentality can even strike the “friendlies”.

            • Yes but in the end we will be held accountable, so anybody that has these thoughts of taking women or raping women might wanna figure out do you really want to see flames for eternity. I still remember one statement, don’t remember where I heard it but, ( In the end we are alone and nobody is coming to help, we came into this world alone and we shall depart from this world alone.)


            • DPS, Amen brother!

            • @DPS, Quote came from mel gibson in the movie “Signs”

            • And THIS is one of the main reasons I’m armed. Taking my stuff is one thing, touching my girls is another altogether. With a good looking wife and two daughters, I’m always vigilant (especially when the daughters reached dating age-I know what a young punk thinks about), but WROL crimes against women will escalate.

              My ladies will be victimized over my dead body; cause you’ll have to kill me first.

              That is all.

            • DPS:

              In the end we are alone and nobody is coming to help, we came into this world alone and we shall depart from this world alone.)

              It is a paraphrase (or maybe exact quote :)) from “One Hundred Years of Solitude” by Gabriel Garcia Marquez.

              Read the book about 30 years ago…that one line stuck in my head, as well.

          • yeah, makes me think of scumbags like Shane in ‘The Walking Dead’

            • You want to talk about scumbags? Google the names Channon Christian and Chris Newsome…THIS is what we are facing!!!! These scumbag animals that DID THIS weren’t facing SHTF, they started out with a car jacking and ended up rape, torture and murder!!
              And if that’s not enough, the judge in the case was found to be incompetent because of a drug addiction so now the families have to go through the hell of a new trail!!
              From an interview with the parents of Channon Christian, the pics that they saw are so horrific, that some jurors fainted!! And what makes this even more horrendous….with these new trials, the animals can’t get a worse sentence…Only 1 of the 5 got the death sentence, so any hope of the others getting a death sentence is not gonna happen…the lawyers will be trying to get them off on technicalities!!
              So yea, we are gonna be in gig trouble when SHTF…because there are more of these non human scumbags running the streets right now!!
              If you aren’t sure that you could pull the trigger on someone…sit down and read about Channon and Chris…and imagine that this is YOUR family!! I know for myself…I’ll have absolutely NO problem pulling the trigger…

            • SML – that is horrible. I’d heard about that case and am astonished it didn’t get more press than it did.

              Lots of people say that you never know what you would do in a situation like that. I can say that I would fire without hesitation to protect my girls. If I feel bad I can cry about it later.

          • OQ ~ When you say

            “a number of guys in here fantasize about pretty young female refugees….”

            I’m really hoping you don’t mean in here, as in on these boards. Never say never, but ughhhh…..that is just awful to think that those thoughts may be lurking behind these posts.

            • Daisy, It didn’t get more press because it was black on white crime…There I said it!! But it’s what everyone else in K-ville is saying too!! We’ve lived with this for four yrs, a stain on our city!!
              Listening to the parents being interviewed today just sickened me…They have NO rights as the parents of these two kids!! They were told they couldn’t cry during the trial. We don’t want to influence the jury, doncha know??
              They were NOT ALLOWED to show pictures of their kids….BEFORE these animals got hold of them…not baby pics, not graduation pics…NOTHING!!
              Yet, during sentencing, the scumbags families were allowed to show all kinds of pics of them as they were growing up….is that not influencing the jury???
              Channon’s daddy said that after the BUS LOAD of relatives testified to “the wonderful character” the murderers, they started taking pictures in the hallway like it was a freaking family reunion!! Laughing and talking, acting like a murder trial was no big deal! Then after their free lunch, they got back on the bus, heading back to Memphis…have I mentioned before, NOTHING good is in the city of Memphis…aka ” the cesspool”!!
              As you can probably tell, this really, REALLY upsets me!! What was done to these poor kids is beyond imagining..and what is scary is that during SHFT, this kind of behavior will run rampant!!

            • SML,

              I heard about it because my mom lives about an hour from Memphis. You are right – it is a horrible city.

              I worked nights and walked home when I lived in New York City, if that tells you anything about my comfort level in an urban environment. When my dad was ill, he was in the VA in downtown Memphis for a month. I was uncomfortable walking two blocks away in broad daylight there.

              I hope those poor parents get SOME measure of justice.:(

            • ~@ SML~

              Quote excerpt.) “….it was black on white crime. There I said it…”

              Whew! Hows it feel when truth / reality kicks the sh*t out of x# of years of egalitarian indoctrination…courtesy of K thru 12 brain laundromats(public schools), the media & govt propaganda?

              Run with it SML, because one day the life of those you value above your own…may literally depend on it!

              I’ve followed this event / trial since the beginning. Few realize that Shannon was abused (in every orifice) over a period of days by multiple perps & was injected / forced to drink & forcibly douched with extremely caustic chemicals{Draino(sp?)}, in an effort to scrub forensic (DNA) evidence. She was murdered & butchered into pieces & her remains deposited in a dumpster.

              Christopher Newsome was severely beaten, tortured & sodomized…then murdered. His body was doused with gas & set alight, days prior to the killing of his girlfriend.

              —the above is the skinny I received from a contact in the MPD—

            • I meant in here as well as out there. The type is usually single, socially awkward, and probably incapable of charming a lady on his or her own.

              Caveat Viator…

        • @SmokyMtnLady

          The garbage that murdered these two young people in such a horrible manner deserve the maximum penalty. I’ve said the same about those Flash Mobs. Plus hate crimes should be added to the charges.

          My sorrow is because these were young people with their lives ahead of them and these vermin made them suffer before ending their lives. It’s not because they were white. No one deserves this type of treatment.

          You mentioned this was a black on white crime. My first response was to post several as equal atrocious crimes against blacks by whites for white on black crimes and the lack of justice for those victims.

          What’s the point? There are evil people out there and they come not only in all colors, but nationalities and religions. We as a society have moved beyond pointing out someone is German or Italian and did …. or Christan or Catholic and ….

          It seems SHTF is coming sooner then later, and we can’t get away from the color of the skin did….

          Evil is as evil does and evil is not a skin color. 🙁

          • “Evil is as evil does and evil is not a skin color.”

            Amen, LH.

          • I understand LH, but IF this had been a white on black crime…it would be ALL over the news…AND they would have charged them with hate crimes!! We live in a very sick society!

            • SML

              It is the times. The pendelum has swung the other way – in days past it was the white on black crimes with no arrests or justice that never got the spotlight.

              It’s still the same when it comes to missing children – be white, blond, blue eyed and missing – and it’s 24/7 – be a child of color and it’s say what?

              In either case, this shouldn’t be about color. It’s wrong both ways and I’m in an agreement about a sick society.

              And going into a SHTF we will still be going at it over the color of a person’s skin. We talk about how half ass backwards the Arab/Taliban countries are going back to old grievances and feuds of a 1000 years, tell me how we are different.

      21. I happen to live in what I pridefully call, …”Gods Country” North Mississippi…lol. I say that because everyone out here has a weapon or two and believe in most part helping one another and we always wave at one another in passing. When I go to a store, I usually ask the neighbor if he or she happens to be on the front porch I say , Hey ya needin anything from the store?
        The feeling here is mutual among us country folks. That is not to say that if my neighbor is hungry he or she wont kill ME or MINE, to eat. I say wheather you live in the city or not …AND I PREFER “NOT”, Get to know your neighbors because he or she may help you to your next meal. In the country you can see pandamonium at a distance for prepatory purposes to where in the city it may be on the other side of your front door.FOOD FOR THOUGHT. God Bless you all!

        • hey there oldcrow…i am a neighbor in northeast mississippi…i agree with you…folks here are different …they are hospitable people who still carry guns and have manners and respect others. and yes, that is not to say that every now and then a bad apple shows up in the population.. i am buggin in..i am ten miles from a 3000 population in any given direction…

      22. Fed Up: You have hit the nail on the head. Most people even if considered poor are spoiled. I am a long way from being prepared but am working on it, The average sheeple will loose their frapping minds if/when food supplies dwindle or public services are disrupted. Almost everyone I talk to about our debt and spending problems, world collapse ,inflation or food and service disruptions, think the government will step in and fix it or it just can’t happen here. The problem with it all is their lack of any preparations will endanger my family or myself. Thanks to all, you’ll never know how much my eyes have been opened by this site and others like it.

        • Thanks TX Hillbilly. I think that knowing how many other people are living throughout the world compared to the average “poor” american is what made me say what I posted earlier. Even homeless people here can find clean drinking water, not everyone elsewhere can and that is just one example.

          I too am grateful for the folks who come here. While I do not always agree with some things folks have to say, I have respect and appreciation that the eyes here are open.

      23. I think bugging in – in a US city – will be much more difficult then they had it in Bosnia. I don’t think the people there feel as “entitled” to take what other people have saved and earned as the thugs in America do. I feel like bugging out is the only solution – so that is what I’ve prepared to do. My wife and I have bicycles should cars not be an option, and we just bought a couple of horses about 33 miles from our house on the way to our BOL….I figure we ride bikes to the horses and then ride the rest of the way to the BOL.

        • I think motor bikes are a good prep. 1. you can kick start them so I would think they would be EMP proof. 2. They can go places that 4 wheeled vehicles cannot. 3. good fuel mileage

          • Getting older and older I wondered about a motor bike with a kick start, but I gather if we have an EMP event – my luck – it wouldn’t be of any use. For the next 10 years or so I’m pretty sure I can handle the bike ride to the horse ranch. And both my wife and I enjoy horseback and I like how both bikes and horses are quiet so you can hear others and they can’t hear you. I have to make it around some populated areas, and if transportation is that ugly of an issue I worry about farmer joe and his 30:06 deciding he needs that transportation more than I do. I figure to travel only a few hours a day in the earliest morning hours when zombies aren’t up yet and joe’s to worried about his cup of coffee to notice me passing by.

            • Horses Rock my friend!

            • Horses eat 50 pounds of food a day, don’t they?

        • Jim,

          Do you remember a movie from the 80s, called the Red Dawn?
          It may sound silly, but i really liked it. My friends thought i was some militaristic pig, but the concept of the movie is close to what we are about to experience.
          The prepared ones have the potential to survive.

          • Red Dawn was a great film, but sadly its panned by the American Left was a fear monger hateful dream of the anti communist.

            Growing up I use to say to people, you can thank 50 million American gun owners (now 90 million) for getting nuked. No country will ever occupy America until after its wiped out its gun toting population.

            My guess is the Islamic Radicals will take over here like they are in Northern Europe. Lapse immigration rules, political correctness to their issues, and open borders are going make it easy for them to take over here. On a more militaristic scale the Chinese could decide they need our food capacity. They EMP us, blame N.Korea and Iran to which we nuke in return and rid the world of two evils, and then Chinese “peace keepers” arrive to “help out” so the 30 million remaining American’s can farm for the Chinese.

            • Jim I call “Bullshit!” on that scenario. Thats propaganda. Not even rational.

              As one of the richest nations of world now, China has too much to lose to start a war: particularly by destroying their customers.

              Try again.

            • Just read an article an hour ago that I sent to Mac, that said The Chinese leader told his navy to prepare for war

            • BJ: You are blowing that way out of proportion. I read that article too. That is just typical high stakes poker over oil and gas rights in the South China Sea.

              China is trying to physically intimidate the other nations in the area to get the Lion’s share of the oil and gas rights in the negotiations.

              Right now, China is NO match for the US Air Force or Navy.

              NO MATCH. And they know it.

            • Three days ago, China warned they will protect Iran, if that country is attacked, even at the risk of starting WW3. Don’t underestimate the Chinese. They have very focused long term goals. They will not hesitate to destroy the US. I have my doubts as to them showing up in mass, but failing that, they will be more than happy to nuke US.

            • Just Me: Technologically, China is a second rate power, but admittedly is modernizing its forces quickly on US cash.

              As far as protecting Iran, the key word is “attacked”. When the US hits Iran it will be in self defense as Iran responds to an Israeli first strike by attacking US interests in the Gulf.

              China and Russia sit this one out.

            • No need to farm, simply forward the walking pig by boat load.
              Any body know how to prepare food, when dying of hunger.
              Examples: Stalingrad 4.8 million people, 600,000 survived.
              Forget about ammo, guns, and beans.
              when U r hungry, pay gold for a bit of rice.
              Pay gold for ammo, and guns. Find all the food needed.

          • Hi Manos,

            Just wanted to say that I will be praying for you and your family. I am so glad that you are still able to come here and share with us!!

            And I liked Red Dawn too! Sad at the end, though.

          • Manos, my prepper budy was the same age as the kids in that movie. He thought it could really happen so he and his friends would get together in the desert here and play “Red Dawn” scenerios. Of course everyone else thought they were nuts at the time. Some people think he is still nuts but he is my good friend and fellow prepper now.

          • If you think about it, that movie can serve as an indicator of what can be done by a smalll group of dedicated citizens who are willing to put it all on the line. And yes, I know it’s just a movie, but some similarities to coming events can be made.

          • @manos:

            I loved the movie as a kid!

            It had a lot of plot holes in it, but yeah… many of the dynamics are good base material to study from.

        • Jim,

          Great plan in getting the horses!

          I am not a horse expert, but know it is important to buy the right horse for the rider – experienced rider or inexperienced, child or adult. Horses personalities vary also.

          I know a woman who trains and sells horses. She has sold them to people in many different states and shipped them as far away as California and Canada. She tries to find a horse that is right for the rider.
          Her website is (

          Just something to think about.
          KY Mom

          • You can eat them also. Just saying….

            Yeah yeah, go ahead give me the thumbs down.

            • I’ll take 2 pony burgers and will gladly pay you next tuesday.

            • When I was a kid in the Army I was stationed in Belgium for almost three years. I knew a Frenchman. His name was Vic. He was diminutive in stature but I never met the man that could stand Vic’s handshake. He could crush your hand and he’d always grin and point to his arms and say “horsemeat.” He ate it and liked it. And by golly they don’t run from ya and they’re bigger than an elk so I’ve got no hang ups about chomping down on a Trigger Burger.

              (If I go to kill one tho and he says his name is Ed I’m gonna freak out.)

      24. Selco and Ferfal had totally different experiences which shows us the answer to whether to bug out or not bug out would be based on the level of collapse. Partial collapse that Ferfal experienced would warrant staying in the city. Selcos experience of total collapse means head for the hills

      25. Those in my community who are preppers, have ideas to isolate our valley from the outside world.

        We are 60 miles from the largest area of around 100,000. But that area is surrounded by farms and ranches. If they are smart about it, they will be able to keep some form of food on the tables of their citizens.

        Medical treatment from local doctors or hospitals/clinics will be below average if medicine is not delivered. So the death rates will go up in all areas of the US city/urban/rural.

        Then the next largest population is about 30 miles away with under 30,000. Again they are surrounded with farms/ranches.

        The same chance of survival as discribed for the first city go with this city.

        Then there is my small valley with less then 10,000. We are surrounded by forest land, farms and ranches. We are pretty self-sufficient for the most part. We do have a large elderly populaton (myself included).

        Most of the valley population are interconecting family units. And we watch out for each other.

        I have been into heavy prepping for the past 3 years and continue to do what I can every day to prepare for what I feel are the bad times to come. A lot of the people in my valley are doing the same thing.

        Even at my age, I am able to do quite a bit.

        One of my latest projects is to clear the 20′ trees from the west side of my garden, to give it more sun light. I am chopping these trees down and limbing them for future fire wood. At 60 I feel good about the progress of this project and hope to have the trees down before spring.

        So everyone of you guys out there. There is still time for prepping for the future. Don’t stop now…..God bless and keep on prepping.

      26. I read Selco’s post and it reminded me of my father’s story of his existence prior to WWII as he lived in Poland. They (Nazis) captured my uncle and because he was a pilot, made him fly bombers in the Luftwaffe, bombing London. My father’s sister was kept in a Nazis camp for insurance. Dad got out early enough and joined the Polish navy (yeh I got some good jokes too). So, two brothers fought against each other during World War II. The reason I mention this – when local, state or federal forces come knocking, some might be friends and not just the MAN.

        Many of us have no idea how rough it can get until we go through a similar experience. Thanks Selco and too many others for your time and information that you have posted. This will help as I’m new here and can reach out for we all have something to offer.

        God Bless Y’all.

      27. I am nestled between a suburban city (outside a major metro area) and a village (best word to describe it)…from that point on it is National Forest. I think inner-city people will stay and wait for Govt. help, they will be in shock and will believe help is on the way. When it doesn’t arrive, they will look to each other to steal and loot from. If some help does show up, they will fight over that until it is all used up. By the time this is over, those that are left will not have the means to get out of town, at least not quickly. I think it will take a long time for the sheeples to start roaming the countryside…most don’t have it in them. Those that head for the hills immediately will most likely pass right by us because they will want to be farther away. I hope and pray the people on my road will come together to form a community and help and defend each other. If they do, the skills and resources will be vast. I do have a back up plan should things become too dangerous…but only as a last resort. What I find the hardest to except, is not being able to communicate with loved ones in other area’s, not knowing if they are all right….that will certainly cause me much sadness. 🙁 If I did live in a big city, I would have a plan to get out a bit farther. I would seek out family or close friends that live rurally, where I could take my supplies and hunker down together.

        • Agreed – most of ’em would sit tight and wait for awhile. OTOH, Most of ’em on my side of the river would probably pull up stakes and run for Bend, Newport, Tillamook, or Astoria – not to mention the crowd sprinting for The Dalles, Pendleton, and beyond. Right now I’m smack in the way of one of those streams (and so are you, and so is everyone else out on the periphery).

      28. Not many bring this up, but I worry about bandits setting up roadblocks when the SHTF. Robbing people of supplies as they are fleeing the cities. I live in small suburb of a 30K town and would want to go to where my family lives in the county, but I can easily see getting stopped and robbed on my way there and all my prepping would have been for nothing.

        • Chuckles, my husband and I worried about the same thing…he has to travel about 180 miles away, work related, every 2 weeks…and he has to cross over 3 bridges to come back home. I went with him last week, and it worried me the whole time…Because that would be the perfect spot to ambush others!
          I think getting a map of the area, so we can scout out another way to get home is the answer…in fact, I’m going to google maps right now to have a look!

        • Chuckles, stay informed at all times and you will see the writing on the wall before everyone else does. That is when you leave. I figure a 2-3 day window before others figure it out.

        • Split your stores. I have enough here to feed my family for at least six months, and enough at my BOL for about 30 people for six months. I’m not talking fancy foods, but beans, rice, flour, cooking oil, peanut butter and canned goods. My BOL is a mere 4 miles away, all concrete, wood and propane, all I need is a well, problem is it is in town (small town) but I gotta get a well dug, and soon.

      29. Just read on Drudge Report…


        • The Drudge Report is an integral component of The Tavistock Agenda, i.e. PsyOps.

          Their methods in the Drudge Report are subtle, yet blatant. It’s always a good exercise to keep up with the latest mind altering methods by reading the D.R. It’s one of “their” supreme models. Top of the line in Total Mind Control Technology. Using various styles and methods to subvert the mind to believe in what they want the mind to believe. Look at the news there. See where it takes you. Certainly not fair and unbiased. The questions are, “What is their agenda, do you know where they are taking you?” When you can answer that, you’ll see that the concept of the “Matrix” is not some fantasy world on the screen, but indeed, the nature of the illusory relative world we live in today, a complete fabrication.

          • There is an agenda behind everything you read; a personal bias is hardwired/ingrained in the writer of any article. It is up to YOU to seperate propaganda from fact.

            The Drudge Report is much better for “news” than just sticking with the mainstream media, as most of the sheep do.

            A vast number of people have discovered and linked to “real” news sites through Drudge, therefore it serves a beneficial purpose.

          • Dude – there is absolutely nothing subtle at all about the Drudge Report. 🙂

      30. The time to get out of major urban areas is BEFORE the SHTF. If you wait until “it” starts (for whatever reason), it may already be TOO LATE.

        If you see advance indications of something coming down the pike and you decide to move, it is absolutely essential to have a specific destination in mind — ideally a relative or good friend with a SECLUDED rural property — and a route planned out IN ADVANCE, including numerous possible detours. This route should focus on using the back roads, and the further “back” the better. This can admittedly add considerable mileage to your journey.

        If you have gotten this far in your planning, you have probably anticipated the possibility of “NO GAS” along the way and you have already stored jerrycans of extra fuel for your trip that have been kept fresh through regular cycling in your vehicle (pay heed: storing gasoline in an enclosed space with limited ventilation is a BIG, deadly and explosive NO NO).

        A good spare tire should always be in your vehicle regardless, and perhaps you should pack some cammo netting as well. A good dark-colored tarp, a hatchet and a k-bar knife have a thousand and one potential uses and can be of great help in many situations you may encounter.

        Machetes and or axes are good tools to have if you to have to deal with minor obstructions along the way, but if your road is blocked by a fallen tree for no good reason, turn around FAST and find another route — chances are, someone predatory has PUT it there to get you to come to a DEAD stop.

        Speaking of predators on your journey, it is essential to be armed at the very least with 1) a short-barreled 12 Gauge shotgun, 2) an AK or AR-type weapon with at least twelve fully loaded 30 round mags available at all times and 3) a semi-auto pistol that holds at least 15 rounds in the clip. It also helps not to be undertaking (pun intended!) this journey ALONE.

        Here now the elephant in the room: If you are European American, you should at all costs AVOID going anywhere near “diversity” when making your escape, which would tend to happen anyway (in most areas of Amerika) if you are avoiding any urban areas that lie between you and your destination.

        I say this not out of malice or “prejudice”(I love this utterly MEANINGLESS word, as if people do not learn from EXPERIENCE). I speak matter-of-factly as a white person who formerly lived in and experienced to the full the “delights” of that most multicultural of Amerika’s putrid and decaying urban utopias, New York City, for over thirty years.

        Consider that, in a SHTF situation, those who have “flash-mobbed” and played “Knock-Out” in “peacetime” will probably think that they have died and gone to heaven. The temptation to engage in TOTALLY unrestrained rapine, butchery and savagery will be almost unbearable for those who have grown up hearing of the “oppression” people who look like YOU have supposedly inflicted on them, and their carefully-stoked “righteous anger” will be even more inflamed than normal by all the “booty” and free stuff to be had.

        To throw these types off (from a distance at least), it may be wise to obtain in advance some black or brown face-paint from a Halloween store or a theatrical supply store and keep it in your bug-out kit.

        On a happier note, once you get to your destination, your hosts should have long since been prepared for a SHTF situation (and thus your arrival on their doorstep), and they should already have a store of rations and other supplies — that you have paid for and put in place — to sustain you during your stay and to keep you from repaying their hospitality by becoming a leech.

        You and your hosts should already have a plan in place to utilize ALL the manpower you anticipate having “collected” at your refuge in the most efficient manner possible.

        This is just a basic common sense outline of some potential preparations once can make, but conditions are invariably going to be different than what one has anticipated. Fell free to add, subtract or dispute any of it.

        • Two words: Dogtown Reservior, there’s probably one near you.

        • ~AHAB~

          LOL! Few realize that according to Webster’s, the definition of ‘prejudice’=…an UNCONSIDERED opinion!

          My opinions are thoroughly analyzed / evaluated prior to becoming truths…as are yours apparently! KUDOS…

          • Yes, Gunsmith, the only opinions that are worth anything are those that are formed by fearlessly examining and considering all aspects of a question, without false sentimentality and without the restraints of dogma and misplaced reverence for sacred cows of any stripe.

            In the dark times to come, those who adhere to the unnatural, state-sponsored “faith” that holds this multicult frankenstein monster together will most likely pay for their intellectual servility with their lives.

            * And thanks for mentioning what happened to Channon and Chris and helping to keep their memory alive.

            • IMO, real Alpha Males equates to courage + intelligence(squared)!

              Regarding Channon & Chris….there but for the grace of GOD,…go mine! May GOD rest their souls!!!!!!!

              —Whatever the catastrophe befalling us…watch your ‘SIX’ pal & best of luck to you & yours—

        • I don’t even know how to start this post – monkey, primate and Ahab, got to hand it to you, did a good job of not using the word, but not disguising who you were denigrating. But then again, it’s not as bad as what use to be posted.

          Least you forget fellow European Americans – yep, my color is black, but my DNA is European. Shocked the shit out of me too. How did that happen? Could it be those five generations of “gentrified and civilized” European men raping women of color, in my case Native Indian.

          Like it or not, because those European ancestors couldn’t keep it in their pants, I can claim the same ancestry and heritage of many posting here. The only difference is the pigment – the color of the skin. It’s that way for many of the inner city dwellers too.

          When the immigrants of the Old World, the ancestors many of you are so proud of, came to America and were the then occupiers of the inner cities. (Ahab, check out New York’s white immigrant history) Whites were labeled with similar epithets as those currently occupying the inner cities. Violent, savage, criminal, gang infested, addicted, diseased. (Cocaine was legal)

          What were those white inner city dwellers means of support? Prostitution, gambling, opium, robbery, preyed on their own. You all forget that zombie period of the white evolution up from poverty???

          I see a pun coming – talk about calling the kettle black. Oh, but that’s all you can see. Black. Not people like your ancestors, it’s about their being Black. Yet, many as myself have the same bloodlines as you – but Black. I am awake and prepping just like you – but Black. I’m an inner city dweller, prepped and fortified, but you wouldn’t want to come here, after all my color is Black.

          In a SHTF scenario, people of color aren’t the only ones living in the inner cities. From the postings here seems there are quite a few European folks. So, I’m to understand there will be a difference in reaction to SHTF for unprepared poor whites versus those of color. Really?

          In describing what we as preppers are going to encounter, the inner city populace will be a major threat and rightfully should be part of our discussions and scenarios. It’s the racial debasing I’ve a problem with -direct or inferred.

          In FerFAL and Selco narratives it wasn’t about the neighbors color of the skin, but their actions that made them a friend or foe. That’s all I’m asking for here. You try and do harm to me and mine, your color doesn’t matter – your actions do.

          Home invasions, land stealing, rape, murder, torture, lynching’s, beatings, dragging – who engages in these savage, uncivilized practices and atrocities? Look in a mirror folks, it’s only one generation in our past.

          I expect to be thumbed down – but at least you know it it’s here.

          • Just like I don’t think that criminals are only certain colours, neither are victims. No one wants to think or admit that they could be a victim of crime, but it could happen to any of is.

            Also, according to FBI profiles, most times murder victims are killed by people of their own race.


            Let’s stop worrying about race, folks, and worry about getting through the years to come with our dignity and lives intact.

            • Amen, Daisy

          • As far as any racial angle, I don’t expect it to be purely based on racial concerns.

            OTOH, the cultural angle (see also ‘La Raza’) is gong to be a force to be reckoned with. As a Catholic, I fit in fairly well in spite of not speaking any real Spanish, and would likely be able to integrate without too much effort. Over half of my local parish is Hispanic (as is my local Deacon), and two Masses each weekend are Spanish language, which is typical for my area.

            That said, I can tell you right now that, while not a threat to the public at large, the Hispanic communities will band together so damned tight that they could keep air from escaping. They also won’t tolerate any bullshit from the outside, and in some areas they will get downright militaristic about it. After all, it ain’t just the country folk who will fiercely look after their own.

          • @ LadyHawk

            You made an admirable effort in your response to my original post, but you could have saved yourself much typing (after all, brevity IS the soul of eloquence) and said the same thing with only a fraction of the words you actually used. If I may be so bold, please permit me to couch the essence of your point in one sentence:

            “Whites made blacks and other ‘People of Color’ (another pseudo-Marxist non-word ideological shibboleth, BTW) suffer in the past, so now it is the turn of whites to uncomplainingly and unresistingly submit to retribution.”

            Does that about sum it up?

            Now, not only did you take too long to arrive at this point, but you also made some assumptions that lead you to some real wrong turns along the way. First, when you refer to “my ancestors” being implicated in crimes against “your” ancestors,” you don’t know what you’re talking about.

            “My” ancestors have been in this country for only a hundred years. English was not the only language spoken in our home. OUR ethnic foods predominated and I even grew up having more contact with OUR ethnic music than the offerings of the Amerikan music industry (you can bet that we were not James Brown fans).

            Secondly, “my” ancestors in this country and “my” family to this day have historically sought ZERO contact, of ANY kind, let alone sexual contact(which YOU brought up), with “people of color.” Anyone in our extended ethnic community that did seek and attain sexual contact with “your” people was viewed, simply, as having DIED (rape victims exempted).

            Generally, as far as “my” family, etc. are concerned, virtually ALL of our interaction with “your” people has in fact consisted of contact that has been FORCED upon US, either in the workplace or as crime victims. In my family’s personal experience, there was flight and avoidance (resistance was disallowed by the “authorities”), but there was never a case of OUR forcing of ourselves upon YOU. Do you accept the principle of free association or not?

            You know, LadyHawk, you really are quite provincial in your assumption that the only viewpoints in this world are those of 1) Native American “victims,” Black sharecroppers and/or menials in involuntary servitude on the one hand, and 2) their antebellum, Jim Crow or US Cavalry “oppressors” on the other. It seems to be an ongoing obsession among “your” people.

            Now, since you are on your “Payback” toot again, please tell me how “justice” is served by African rape gangs in Norway that attack Norwegian girls, especially since Norway NEVER had any African colonies and itself only separated from Sweden in 1905. The same holds true for Finland, Poland, Ireland and many other European countries beset by African crime, and that were themselves conquered by OTHER European countries.

            Note that I DO NOT support the acts of “your” people in those European countries that once HAD possessions in Africa or overseas colonies ANYWHERE — remember those pictures of English people being forced by Africans to strip naked on the streets of London? On seeing those, I really wished the English people were allowed by “their” government to give these savages the kind of answer that their actions warranted. Ever hear of NATURAL law?

            I thought my remarks were clear: My warning about “your” people was not a moral condemnation, but an eminently practical one — the equivalent of a statement on a public health issue, or a consumer product safety alert, so to speak. My words are ONLY the moral equivalent of saying “Don’t step on the Third Rail,” or “The Pinto is a dangerous car because its gas tank tends to explode in a read-end collision” (I’m shewing my age here, I’m afraid).

            When I was in New York, the papers were full of tragic stories of out-of-town tourists from “non-diverse” areas who were deprived of the kind if information I presented above, and who consequently suffered HORRIBLY, because they had not learned to differentiate between various types of “New Yorkers” (sic) that real New Yorkers like me GREW UP with. The question I ask you is this: are your “feelings” more important to you than the saving of human lives, even if it’s only ONE?

            So please, LadyHawk, by all means continue to entertain us with your stern moral lectures of tit-for-tat and the day of Payback, and continue your entertaining rebukes of those who are capable of recognizing PATTERNS in information gathered through empirical observation. I’m sure you will become very popular here as you quixotically try to convince most of the readers and posters here that they “have it coming” — no matter WHO THEIR ancestors were or what they DID — and that they better SHUT UP and TAKE IT when it comes.

            Have a nice day.

            • ~AHAB~

              Methinks ladyhawk’s diatribe sounds suspiciously like….’a tick cursing the flee collar.’
              Game / set & match to you, sir! Excellent use of truth & the high ground, pal!

              In genteel company @ local neighborly gatherings (i.e pig-pickins’, beer busts & skeet shooting competitions where a sizable contingent of participants are ex-Ranger / Airborne / SF guys, many times the subject conversations eventually will focus on racial differences vs the destruction of Amerika’s military from within, via judeo-political correctness. The US negro species is now commonly referred to as…

              …’Australopithecus Cocainus & their African cousins = Australopithecus Kalashnikov’…

              Rather fitting, don’t you think?

          • One last point, Ladyhawk — Your limited imagination may have trouble grasping this, but not all the European ethnics that came here in the 19th and early 20th centuries were POOR. That’s drug store history and it sounds suspiciously as if you took a course in White Studies” taught by an affirmative-action “professor.” In my case, my family were architects, building contractors and skilled metalworkers who came here not for ECONOMIC reasons, but POLITICAL ones, i.e, to escape arrest due to involvement in revolutionary movements.

            Re your remarks: The era of NY’s “Five Points” is long gone, and one major difference between the white dregs that inhabited such an environment and the denizens of the “inner cities” of today is that the anti-social actions of the criminal Whites were condemned by the “White” society at large, while the anti-social actions of the denizens of today’s inner cities is justified, explained away as legitimate resistance and even celebrated as a “culture” by a huge segment of the minority “community.”

            • You just proved my point “…did a good job of not using the word, but not disguising who you were denigrating…”

              Your colors just came through. Is that to the point enough?

            • Hey Feminine Buzzard (aka ladyhawk)

              Ahab owns your goat! Take your advocating via moral relativism & stick it in your orifice of choice, loser!

              Let see you refute this:


              AHAB, hold your ground, I’ve noticed you have fearlessly volunteered to walk point, while taking serious flak for doing so. Some of us appreciate your courage & adherence to truth. We’ve got your back, brother!

        • What if while you’re wearing your Halloween make-up a European American (your words) thinks you have come for rapine, butchery and savagery (your words) in their neck of the woods and pings you with at the very least with 1) a short-barreled 12 Gauge shotgun, 2) an AK or AR-type weapon with at least twelve fully loaded 30 round mags available at all times and 3) a semi-auto pistol that holds at least 15 rounds in the clip? (again, your words)

          Methinks Mr. ToughTalker needs a Plan B.

          • Yawn. Yeah Roscoe, I thought of that, but there is a little thing called LENGTH that one must consider in making a post that prevents EVERY every CONCEIVABLE eventuality from being written about, thus providing obvious (and cheap) fodder for pedestrian straw-man arguments from bottom feeders.

            Of course, if you think it’s better to have FEWER options are better in a SHTF scenario, that is your prerogative.

          • Yawn. Yeah Roscoe, I thought of that, but there is a little thing called LENGTH that one must consider in making a post that prevents EVERY, every CONCEIVABLE eventuality from being written about, thus providing obvious (and cheap) fodder for pedestrian straw-man arguments from bottom feeders.

            Of course, if you think it’s better to have FEWER options in a SHTF scenario, that is your prerogative.

            I forgot to mention one more thing folks — if you wear glasses, make sure you have a spare set on hand ALWAYS. I broke MINE today and, if the S did HTF now, I’d be like Burgess Meredith playing the bookworm in that episode of the Twilight Zone (“Time Enough” is the title, I think).

      31. I have many options..I dont and wont know what way to go with them until its time to make that choice.

        I can hunker down at home real good with multiple tools and defences, and plenty of ammo and arms to hopefully ptotect whats mine..if thats not the case I have an alternate location by car on back roads (im in the sticks) only 20 min away.
        I also have another location over 300 miles from me..wont be doing that on foot..definetly a very risky journey..but if it needs to be than it is what it is.

        I can board up and cubby hole where im at very well, and the known resources (natural) to my area survive pretty well and knowing the area ..have a tactical advantage..especially at night.

      32. To whom it may concern

        The advise I give city dwellers is if you are concerned with your chances of survival in the city network with like minded people that are rural. Get out in the country and help someone on their farm. And when the SHTF you will have a place to go.

      33. Mona…you go, girl!!!

      34. Fellow Preppers BTW FYI AKA FP get it?

        Anywho, how bout this, yellow crime scene tape! Yeah, get ya some and at the height of SHTF put some outside around your place and hope it makes the hordes think the police might be around.

        Is that a good idea or should I just save my money to by another bean?

        • Actually, I think it is a REAL good idea. I was out of town last winter and some trees fell on my property, narrowly missing my home. Police and fire responded, thanks to my neighbors, to secure my home and check for electrical/fire hazards. It took me 6+ hours driving through the night to get there. When I arrived, I found my property was strung with tape to inform people that it was dangerous to cross the line. It definitely could send a message that it is too dangerous or that there is nothing to be had. I also like the quarantine signs from previous discussions. 🙂

        • One better, use that yellow tape and Post pre-printed signs warning of quarantine Cholorea or Small Pox

      35. OMG!!!!!! RUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN. run for your lives.

        • Why run? You’ll only die tired…

      36. good idea QB. Also, as in a tv show I seen a while back, can’t think of the name of it, but the guy from ‘Simon and Simon’ was in it and I think “Jake” was the main character and it had a cool CIA guy in it (black guy) In the show an emp or nuke went off adn I think they lived in Kansas. Anyway when they traveled to a nearby town to get medical supplies, the houses had FEMA symbols spray painted on the doors to houses signifying whether the house had been went thru by them and the outcome of that. You could spray paint something like that on your door and I think it was realistic and true enough to reality that it would help deter people as well.

        Anyone know what part of that show I am referring to?

        • The show was Jericho. I freakin’ LOVED that show!

        • They had something similar in ‘After Armageddon’, but instead of FEMA markings, they suggested tossing crap onto the front yard, making the house look like it had already been ransacked.

          • reply to OD…

            yeah, but for those looking for a place to stayover, wouldn’t that be an open invitation??

            • Not if the neighbor’s house has a wide-open door and yours doesn’t.

              It’s a lot easier to deal with stop-overs than with criminals.

        • BJ,

          They have Jericho on Netflix. Great series! We watched it there.

          KY Mom

          • jerhico and Jericho and Jeremiah are both on – meaning you can watch them on your computer for free.

            • “jericho and jeremiah”????

          • yeah Jericho was the name…loved that show too Daisy. Sure wished they would of continued on with it.

            Anyone know where I can watch this After Armageddon show, we dont have cable, been saving $80 a month for almost two years without it…sometimes I miss it though not very often. I looked on HIstory channel website and Netflix and didn’t see the Armageddon show?

            • The link I posted waaaay up there has youtube clips showing the whole show in sections 🙂

        • From Wikipedia links on Jeremiah

          “…The eponymous Jeremiah is a semi-loner who has spent the last 15 years travelling back and forth across the United States, seeking out a living and looking for a place called “Valhalla Sector,” (the remains of Raven Rock) which his father—a viral researcher—had mentioned to Jeremiah as a possible refuge shortly before disappearing into the chaos of “the Big Death.” A stop in the trading town of Clarefield, Colorado results in Jeremiah teaming up with another lone traveller named Kurdy, before being imprisoned by the town’s warlord in a cell with a man named Simon, who wants to recruit Jeremiah for a vague and mysterious organization. With Kurdy’s help, Jeremiah and Simon escape, but Simon is fatally wounded in the process.

          Following the instructions given to them by the dying Simon, Jeremiah and Kurdy take Simon’s truck back to “Thunder Mountain,” the remains of the NORAD complex, where they discover a well organized and equipped group operating out of the base, led by the former child prodigy Markus Alexander. Markus chooses to employ Jeremiah and Kurdy as a recon team to replace the now dead Simon and his partner, sending the two men back outside to gather information in preparation for the time when the mountain will need to start rebuilding the world…”

      37. Don’t they make a roll that says “Quarantined Area, Highly Contagious Virus. Enter at your own risk”

      38. My home base, population 7000. 72 miles to the next closest town, ½ our size. 142 miles to a real city, 70,000. 4 hours from closest large city. I think I’ll stay put. This is a bug out location and I didn’t move here because of that but now I am glad I did!

        • My favorite spot would be the little town of Salina, Utah.

          I used to pass through it a lot back when I hunted elk each year… It’s a smallish town (2500 people), about 2-3 miles back in from I-70, and around 95 miles before you get to the nearest large city (Provo, UT). It has an active coal mine nearby, and most folks work either for it for for a small gypsum plant nearby. A huge chunk of their income is from the annual hunting seasons, as folks blow through on their way to BLM land. This may present some issues, but otherwise, it’s a pretty neat little place if you wanted to live there…

          • You are quite wise in your education & experience. So are many others commenting on this article. I wish all of us great success in surviving the coming catastrophe.

            Both in our 60’s so we will stay on the farm here in rural SW Virginia and continue to make ready. For most of us old GI’s, we can smell the undercurrent of what is about to be delivered upon us.

            What still blows me away is the absolute disconnect most fellow citizens display as to current events. Living in a culture that is rapidly accelerated beyond sustainability and is approaching a black hole how can one ignore it.

            Have options everyone. Wish that us all were in our own compound. It takes more humans than most can imagine to safely defend & survive.

            Enjoy this Christmas. You know why.

      39. “He described what it was like to live for a year in a city with no infrastructure: no running water or sewer, trash pickup, no electricity; no food available, currency was useless and no rule of law.”

        And then there are the Palestinians…

      40. RUN RUN RUN – but how? In most metro areas it has to be done well before SHTFday. Heck, on a normal day commuting in a car in most cities is torture, and that’s assuming good weather. In a bug-out situation every freeway and alternate will come to a complete stop within a few hours. Shortly thereafter there will be a human wave of looters spreading from the freeways, and there won’t be enough ammo anywhere to stop that. Meanwhile the goblins will be trolling the neighborhoods, using routes such as railbeds that they already use to do burglaries.

        • Coach, I may be wrong, but I believe there will be a 2 or 3 day window of opportunity to get out before the masses even start to get a clue. If you and yours stay informed, you will be able to sieze the moment before everyone else.

      41. Market Watch: Breaking News, “… Financial Times reported the European Union was in discussions to double the size of its bailout fund.” and the CAN gets kicked a little further down the road, again.

        • Gee what a suprise…..this game will go on for several more years .

        • *thumbs through the recipe book, looking for how to cook horse rissols…*

      42. It’s about to start.
        My opinion is that we are about to live the last happy Christmas of our lives.
        Prepare yourselves physically and mentaly.
        Prepare your beloved ones by making them part of the circle of trust.
        When the end comes don’t hesitate, and don’t be afraid.
        Remember this:
        Your are not alone my American friends.

        Be safe my friends, God bless you.

        • MANOS – My salute to you sir!. I wish you well and that you enjoy your Christmas. You will have many here in USA wishing the best to you and your loved ones.

          You are so correct not to go forth afraid. We must use our fear & channel its power not to shake, but to sustain us.

          You have a Merry Christmas.

        • God be with you and your family. Stay strong, keep in contact as much as you can. Fight the good fight!

      43. Black Friday!!! Our fellow citizens showing zero respect for one another, imagine if SHTF & the question is getting food for their family.

        At all cost get out of the cities if you’re a prepper. Those friends & family members that looked at you as a crazy person because you are preparing will be trying to head your way. Team up with like minded they will be your new family, your security line.

        Black Friday should be looked at as a mild version of social disrespect. When SHTF people will be out with weapons. Good people will turn bad, bad people will become evil, a survivors instinct will take over.

        Those that are prepping have thought out in advance how to survive, we preped so we can maintain some civility, stay on the good path.

      44. Scott,
        And for others that must make a living in the city. Prepare as you can. IF no bug-out place, then take some weekend backpacking trips to a National forest, wildlife preserve anywhere that allows that type of thing. If you do not have the skills to back pack, start learning about it. A few trips carrying your equipment and food and water will give you an idea on what is really required and what is not. Read up on survival, read some books on trapping, snares being the lightest, so concentrate on books on snaring. Go to the firearms shop, buy at least a 22 lr rifle, learn to shoot it, buy a handgun, learn to shoot it, preferrably have a good friend or person you can buddy up with. Get a water filter, put together a first aid kit and I’m not talking about the $15 kit you buy at Walmart, I’m talking sutures, or butterfly clips, forceps, scissors…lots of bandages, a tourniquet, that type of first aid kit, do some research, get an army field manual on surviving. Make a plan. know where your going, that is why you need to do some backpacking now, you will find some nice spots and when you do, shut the hell up. Learn to hide, this means clothing that are earth tones or camo…I prefer camo, I’ve been within arms reach of peeps and they never knew I was there. Practice this with your partner when your out there. Go as deep into the shit as you dare. Get to know the local biome, the plants, animals, there is nothing to be afraid of if you are armed with knowledge. Learn to see animal sign…sit somewhere at sunrise and at sunset, during the twilight you may be amazed at what you see moving, learn to sit still, learn to be quiet….Be as woodcrafty as you can be, but do not sit on your laurels, prepare that backpack, get a good sleeping bag and 1-2 person backpacking tent…do whatever it takes ahead of time. Don’t wait till it is too late. IF shtf get out, get deep and stay there awhile, as long as you can…and when you think you have been there long enough, or if you have the forethought to take a small hand powered radio to monitor news…poke your head out, but carefully. IF you run into peeps be careful, watch out for predators and I’m not talking about 4 legged…if shtf lasts long maybe you will have to come out…and when meeting peeps be careful, there are some of us that are not mean as a snake, there are those of us that may give some charity, but don’t be offended if you are turned away…it might be a different world and the only person you can rely on is yourself or your partner. But do something now…find the areas that you can go to, I know there is much more to it than I can mention in a few paragraphs, but prep what you can, educate yourself, get out there and do the backpack trip, it may save your life…


      45. Not a lot of people are going to be leaving cities in a shtf scenario. The roads and infrastructure won’t allow it. Police and military will be locking down escape routes. Your best use of money, time, and resources is to occupy and survive. Country folk by and large are armed and prepared and will shoot at you. I know I will. All this big talk about the wandering hordes consuming the land like locusts is just that, big talk. Make friends with your neighbors, prepare for the worst, pray to God for the best.

        • I think your idea is probably for most urban dwellers, the most realistic. Very quickly, after an emergency situation has been declared, and in some cases, before the emergency has been declared, all major roads out of any size town will have checkpoints, making any reasonable bug out, out of the question. In many urban areas such as where I live, there are only so many ways to leave the area, Authorities already know this.
          So, unless I know I can leave well before an emergency is declared, I’m staying put.

      46. Hey! There must be a national coal shortage!!!

        On Christmas Day, Justin Beiber (ick) is going to the White House to sing for the Obamas.

        (Get it? Coal? Stockings? Someone has been bad?)


        • Who’s Justin Beiber???

          • He’s a 16 year old multi-multi millionaire singer. The 10-12 year old girls scream hysterically over him. I think he’s kind of a little twerp. 🙂

        • Um….

      47. US inner cities will be worse than the primate exhibit at the worst zoo since they can operate guns! (barely).
        The LAST place you want to live is in an inner city on a good day, but after a collapse? Forget it! You’re better off stocking up on camping gear, water purification, food and heading to the woods near a water source.

      48. I live in a small rural town about 30 miles from the nearest city. My only real fear is that I live close to a state highway that comes right out from the city. People fleeing would drive by my house. I also live next to a lumber yard, an a few other businesses. So, though I’m rather rural I could be a prime target in such a case.

        I keep everything locked up and it would be hard to break into my home. Also well armed. So, I am aware and prepared for possible strangers coming to my door but I’m also not gonna let it worry me right now either.

        cause, there are a lot of better looking homes and businesses between my house and the city that would be prime targets.

        • You’ll be fine. Just stay alert and aware of whats around you.
          Got a furry friend that will bark?

      49. Today’s News Headlines…

        Astronomers at UC Berkley have discovered two of the largest Black Holes in the universe. Further observation reveals that one of them terminates in Sacramento and is directly connected to the California state budget. Well, that explains a lot of things…

        Rosie O’Donnel is officially engaged to her girlfriend. They plan a modest ceremony, followed by a honeymoon at Sea World. No word on which of the happy couple will be opening, and which will headline.

        The prez and family will be in Washington for 3 straight days this week. Then it’s back to the grind of Hawaiian beach vacations, $1000-a-minute flights on Air Force One, champagne, caviar and all the other drudgery of daily life. Hope they can handle it.

        One of the Real Housewives has her lawyer on speed-dial, ready to sue anyone who calls her a stripper. She used to work in a club with the job designation of ‘bartender’ and adamantly denies she was a dancer or stripper. She does, however, admit to a few ‘lap-bartending’ sessions.

        Then there’s the guy who recently got stranded in the snow in Alaska. He survived 3 days by eating frozen beer.(Miller Lite- he said it tasted great…but it WAS less filling) Since it was all he had with him, he cut the tops off the cans and spooned it out a bit at a time. It kept him alive til he was rescued. Rumor has it that he’ll team up with Sara Palin to write a book. Going Rogue 2: Favorite Recipes Of The North Country.

        And there’s the electric car company Aptera, which couldn’t get a product to market even after $150 million in government subsidies. They will, however, have a fantastic Christmas light display at corporate headquarters this year. Since electric power is so expensive in California, they decided to power it from Ogden Public Service in Utah. (well, we already had all these extension cords, so we just figured…)

        • And Okie does it again….

          My first belly laugh of the day.

          Thanks, Okie!

      50. Important news flash. No one needs to panic. Everything is truly going to be all right now. There will be peace on earth and good will towards men (and women and other people). Our dear president and his administration has a policy measure that will solve the world’s problems in one fail swoop:

        Yes I’m kidding

        • Jim, all I had to do was read the link to have a good laugh. Thanks.

      51. I can think of a gazillion more questions to ask this guy!

        Lets face some facts here, most people today don’t have half a tank of gas in their vehicles at any given time. Most people aren’t aware of what is going down let alone what is happening in their own daily lives. When the SHTF, whenever that may be, most won’t have a clue until it is to late. Even then, they won’t have the fuel to get far. My family lives 4 hours away in the “big” city. They know that if they get the “call” from me, BALE!!! The worst that could happen is I am wrong and we get to visit each other at my home.

        • If they get the call from you “BALE”,
          I’m afraid your family will immediately begin collecting grasses into large rectangular cubes to feed horses to horses.

          Be sure to say “BAIL” instead.

          🙂 ‘It’s confusing not to be confused in times of confusion’, yeah, Confusius did say that, of course!

          Hi five! Boing!

          • CORRECTION: …cubes to feed to horses.

            • The typo that bothers me most is when people type then for than and than for then.:)

            • Sure glad we aren’t graded on spelling here, I’d flunk! My fongers get in the way sometimes too lol.

          • My bad, fingers moving faster than brain!

            • You’re not alone….happens to me all the time. I need to proof before I post.

            • We need and EDIT button Mac!!

        • “Lets” should have been “Let’s” and “The worst that could happen would be the SHTF. If I am wrong, we would have a nice visit at my home.”

          Guess I need another beer!

      52. At what point will they open the prison doors? For some cons WTSHTF will be like a dream come true…

      53. I live in The Bronx, NYC three miles from the poorest ghetto in the USA the South Bronx.Was FDNY fireman there in the ’70’s when the city was burning, that was bad this will be worse. Have no place to run to. Will dig in deep with family (10 total) have supplies for four months. Constantly adding to this. Man, Oh, man it is going to be an interesting experience!!! After we are over run there should be a few less of the golden horde heading your way.In my 60+ years on earth have learned two things, have no expections and nothing lasts forever.
        Good luck to all and when they reach you…Make them pay dearly!

        • You’ll have my prayers Tom.

          Good hunting,

          • Prayers are good, thank you. Just wish I had the ability to call in indirect fires and air!

      54. thinking it through, there is no where to run. does the government have the disaster supplies in store that will be enough to get to the cities before it’s too late? they were not ready for katrina. has anyone heard any news of the government building up reserves in case of such a catastrophy? not me. i would think they would have supplies for the fema camps. if not…….

      55. You might want to consider can someone turn off your water, electricity, blow up your house by shooting the gas meter, propane tank? Can they suffocate you by blocking your house vents?

      56. small suggestion….

        if shtf avoid all tetracycline antibiotics. in bad times some of them can be way beyond expiration date and can be very dangerous i.e. kidney failure (fanconi syndrome). i saw several cases in argentina in 2001-2004. HORRIBLE. just when a guy needs help he gets poisoned.

        • ~SHROOM~

          Simple kitchen table test described in an earlier post will confirm viability of tetracycline…

          Thanks for medical term data…..

          • @GUNSMITH

            there is no test to determine the toxicity of outdated tetracycline compounds other the the users kidneys.

            bacterial sensitivity tests may indicate that an outdated tetracycline compound is functioning as an antibiotic – but when injested may severly injure or kill the user. functionality and toxicity are two entirely different modalities.

            believe me – i have had many decades of experience in these matters.

            if the shtf and times get tough pharma compounds will often be stored under unacceptable conditions and expiration dates will often be changed to enhance profits.


            • ~SHROOM~

              Ok…I’ll defer to your advice as I’m not a medical technician! My opinion was based on a recommendation from a retired army medic w/ many years of experience in various 3rd world ‘shit-holes’…

              —Thanks much—

            • Thanks mushroom. Tossed mine out today. I have plenty of other antibiotics I can use.

      57. @ Rich, you obviously think you are mentally above us all. Just keep up your amature psycological mind games if it gives you a thrill, but when the foragers come down your driveway may God help you because you don`t seem to understand the concept of helping yourself. Their are 4 steps to accepting a new paradiem—-first is denial, second is ridicule, third is anger, and last is acceptance, it would seem that you have a ways to go. The Lord helps those who who help themselves. Cherrio,, Butch

      58. Postscript: I am proud to post right behind Mushie

      59. Gang,or sould I say Wolf pak,
        I know that for the last few days I have been posting way to much and to all of you I say thank you for listening, trust me I can’t wait to get back to work, then I will shut the hell up, but for its worth I wish you all a Merry Christmas and just ask that you take time to be happy for the season.

        • Thank you DPS, this is something I have been struggling with for the past week….just can’t get in the mood. I tried stringing the lights on the house on Sunday…thought it would help. Nope. Watched a couple of Christmas movies and that didn’t do much either. I think what I am missing is the Christmas music, not much being played on the radio. I am missing the manger scene on the living room table. We don’t decorate inside until our daughter is home from school…so maybe it will get better then. I am going to step away from all of this for a while and focus on my family and the true meaning of the season. After all, that is what matters the most. I wish you and your family a Merry Christmas too. May God protect and bless you in the coming year. ~D

      60. Has anyone watched Jericho? It was a very interesting show. Really made me think.

        • Loved that show~~~Have heard a movie is coming out…hope that’s true!!

          • I hope so too. I used to watch it with my kids which are almost grown now. It was a great way for us to talk about what we would need to do just in case.

      61. Today was Ride-To-Town day!

        It’s the day I saddle up on the ol’ faithful bicycle (with humongous basket on the front) and go into town, the center of which is 8 miles from here, the edges 5.

        I took some cut up junky wire to the recycler, really junky since they didn’t really want it too bad and I only got $7.20 for 26 pounds of the stuff. Oh well! Then I went to the antique store with the stuff in my backpack, two old Bakelite 1950s type multimeters, some microscope slides in wooden boxes, 1960s transistor-radio ear buds etc. They were not *that* thrilled, but I said I’d be happy with $50 for everything. OK! But, they didn’t have the money! I ended up getting two US Silver Eagles I think they’re called, 1-oz. coins of fine silver, so I actually got $60+ for my stuff, not bad!

        I saw such an army of trashcan-digging, bench-sitting, can-scrounging, junky-bike-riding, rattling can-and-bottling, shuffling, down-and-outers as I have never seen before. Homeless and scroungers are not strange to my smallish town, but there were a LOT. Of course I’m only the upper-middle-class of that group, living as rustic as I do and myself, riding a bike with a load for the recyclers, but still! TS has indeed, HTF for these people. Hell, I was on the “down escalator” myself, except that I’d moved in with a girl and was fixing everything in her place, and that got the attention of the guy who owns this place, and now I live here, he doesn’t have to tell me to fix stuff and do chores any more than you have to tell a coon hound to bay.

        The zombies were SO evident today!

        But, they’re all in town. As soon as I got on the way home and into the region where I have to fight the wind and it’s miles from anywhere, there’s just no one. I ran into one lady heading *into* town, and gave her $2 for the bus after asking if she was OK and knew where the resources are – in town.

        This is what FerFal has talked about – in shitty times, people head INTO the cities. In fact you don’t want to be TOO isolated, you need a network of people looking out for each other.

        I love Selco’s writing, but a seige/encirclement is much different from The Great Depression That Never Ends.

        And it’s true, most cityfolk think there’s tons of food out here. And there is, but you have to know what it is. I can pull good food, literally out of a smelly ditch here – black walnuts – in February. Mustard stems are good too, bunch’a stuff like that. But I was out picking feral chard for my dinner and thought to myself, I bet a lot of city people couldn’t tell chard from dock, plantain, etc. Then there are the “white carrots” (deadly nightshade) that grows all over, in our garden, yep often in with the carrots, lol. There are idiots who will eat that.

        Nope the zombies are going to be going into the cities, because that’s where gov’t aid will be handed out, they’ll think.

        Today reinforced in me the realization that TSHTF is happening, now. It’s just happening to different people at different times.

      62. Most of the Obama voters are in the major cities. Block off the roads and bridges and let em eat each other. I don’t want those monkeys coming out to my neck of the woods.

      63. sometimes I wonder if starvation in the city might the best way to ‘bite it’…not looking forward to the violence of crazy zombies in the city …but eventually many of us will end up deceased. So the question is whether to prep is really all that much better- I’ve been doing it for years…but stil I wonder… maybe the survivors of the initial stages of collapse will be worse off…people always assume that anyone who survives is better off – but maybe the deceased are the lucky ones??? I fyou prep and survive then what kind of world will you live in post-collapse?

        • Not dead Micah……….Duh. I mean wouldnt you like to live out the rest of your life free as possible surviving on what youve stored???? Use your wits, AND WHATEVER YOU DO, DONT GIVE UP !

        • It depends.
          You might just meet up with some long haired dude that knows how to make good corn whiskey!
          Do you know how to sharpen a knife with a potato?

          • Nope–but I do pretty darn good with the bottom of a ceramic coffee cup!!

        • I don’t wonder if starvation anywhere might ‘be’ the best way to ‘bite it’. Was that a transversly bifurcated pun? Starve till you bite it? I luv u all 2, donut maik fun uv mi voodoo! I mean spelling! Is voodoo spelling?

          I don’t wonder about starving, cause I ran out of water on a sail boat, five days out. We opened cans of food and drank the liquids. We weren’t hungry, we were thirsty! The food spoiled so we ran out of food! (Don’t worry, it was all one of them G_d’s summer camp experience type experiences.)

          Starving is the better way to die because starvation is accounted for in the PLANning dimension(dept) of the Universe.

          I PLAN to live to see what it will be like post-collapse, and PLAN to help make a better world. I’m not entirely convinced the ‘collapse’ won’t turn out to be an ‘enlightenment’ instead … a seemingly dull epic in the anals of apocalypsic warnings, and I PLAN to help my self and others.

          Which is to get to the point of this site, shtfPLAN. That is what is failing us, ‘their’ PLANS… and what will save us is ‘our’ PLANS!

        • ~~~what kind of world will you live in post-collapse?~~~

          One we take charge in after all the politicians have died??

        • well, I will never give up but I do get worn out with all of this…but my point was that perhaps a post-collapse world might not be much better- people seem to think that post-collpase will be some kind of new utopia-which I’m certain is false. Actually, if there is a global collapse it is more likely that life will be a living hell for a very long time….except that you’ll be able to drink whiskey and drive at the same time – which is why you need distilling skills 🙂

          @Quantum Bubbler -RE: ‘Transverse Bifurcation’
          In college I was a student of Mathematical Physics and even Topology- so your comment of my statement using the term transverse bifurcation was perceptive and interesting… it does appear that I made an inverted reflective inference…but that doesn’t mean that Schroedinger’s cat can’t fly at speeds which are greater than the speed of light…Einstein wasn’t right about everything- though we live in a universe of relative evolutionary convolution the fact is that particles not made of electro-magnetic energy do actually travel at speeds much greater than the speed of light-and this fact has scientists with linear brains very confused when they realize we live in a universe not made entirely of electro-magnetic energy. Q.E.D.

      64. I just think that it will end up with “escape from new York” being considered a documentary. That’s best case. Worst case is mad max meets the walking dead. Good luck, merry Christmas, and I hope I’m wrong.but primers are on sale need a couple thousand more…

      65. Seems like most people here; if not on the same page, are somewhere in the same chapter.

        The only thing I would note about the “to bug out, or to not bug out” question would be:

        What kind of SHTF scenario?
        EMP? Will your car even start/run?
        Is everyone leaving now? Might be better to wait.
        Is everyone fairly calm? Might be better to leave now.

        Common sense will go a long way to ensuring survival, but in the end, luck will play a larger part than any of us would like.

        I changed employers, took a 2/3rds pay cut, but now I only work 6 months a year. The only problem, is I’m gone for those 6 months, hopefully I will be home when/if the SHTF.

        I’m lucky, I live on 100 acres, surronded by National forest, it’s a small community.

      66. Love your site Mac and have mostly been just a regular lurker since you got it started. Dittos on looking forward to a discussion forum like many others here.

        Serious questions for anyone who may be able to relate (after a brief comment); I personally don’t believe there will be a singular “event” that’s the big indicator that the S has HTF like many seem to think.

        I think we are are much more likely to see a continuation of the current turning up of the flames under the pot or tightening of the vice like we are experiencing now. Like another poster already said, for some sectors of society its already hit/is hitting the fan and those sectors will likely just continue to widen to ensnare more and more of us. Death by a thousand cuts more akin to what’s happening in Greece, IOW.

        But, either way, lets say it did hit the fan in a more obvious and immediate way as a result of a currency collapse, war scenario or even some other plague or natural or man made “event.”

        What happens to those of us who work in “mission critical” type jobs? For example, my wife is a nurse at a maximum security prison. I am an exterior electrician with an additional responsibility for airport lighting. We are both fully awake and have been prepping as best we can for several years.

        We live 5 or so miles outside a “smallish” town with major metros about an hour away to the North and South and plan to stay put when/if a situation occurs. We’re in a mostly rural area with not too many neighbors nearby but enough that we all mostly know each other a bit. Most us would be considered part of the “clinging to their God and guns” group mocked and hated so much by our current traitor in chief.

        Maybe moreso with her job than mine the doors aren’t just going to close (or open) at the prison because of a war or a currency collapse, etc. Essential staff like her are required to be at work, especially if a state of emergency is declared…to the point the state police will literally pick you up and take you to work if you can’t get there yourself (happens all the time in heavy winter storms, etc.)

        My job can be equally critical just maybe not to the same degree as hers. In the case of a currency collapse, we would both probably be getting paid in worthless fiat (if not via IOU) but what the hell do you do? Not showing up literally isn’t an option in her case, barring quitting, and she has a lot more at stake as far as longevity at her employer (the State) than I do…so I guess maybe I quit and take her to work through the zombies with both of us packing (and me driving real fast on the way home/way back to pick her up solo).

        We both are in the same boat as far as having all our retirement $/tax deferred savings locked into things we can’t get at without quitting/retiring and the soonest either of us can do that is 5+ years away. And by the time this type of scenario goes down its likely it will all be gone, stolen by the bureaucrats or worthless anyway. We’re both in our early 50s, have no health excuses we can drum up to borrow out the 401K/cafeteria plan stuff and they don’t let you take it out any other way before retiring…except quitting.

        Anyone else facing something similar? Short of a nuclear event and maybe not even then, this prison isn’t likely going to close or just let all the murders, rapist and child molesters walk. We both need/want to keep our jobs in the current reality but if/when the SHTF I think 1 of us would be forced to quit so we could get out at least some of our savings. We don’t have any debt besides the mortgage and minimal utilities so either job could carry that stuff.

        Of course, if its really a total SHTF with no more ordinary social structure, banks, power, etc. that changes things somewhat and makes the decision a bit easier but my guess is that, even then, the prison will still be “open for business” which forces my wife to either quit or venture out amongst the horde in order to serve the other zombies when she gets to work.

        Maybe I’m just frustrated and thinking through scenarios that are probably meaningless. I guess I kinda felt I needed to vent a bit but would still love to hear others thoughts especially about our savings. We have both basically quit contributing to these plans except for her pension/my retirement which a percentage is taken out each pay automatically (like we’ll every see it when we expected to anyway). We only start that about a year or so ago and have used the difference to pay off debts and prep. Otherwise pretty much everything else we managed to save until that point is locked up with no way to get it out except as I described.

        I guess we at least do have much to be thankful for, are awake and can weather a pretty full on shit-storm for about a year…which is light years ahead of 99% of most everyone we know who refuses to the accept reality that “it” can and very likely will happen here.

      67. I didn’t read through all the replies, so I hope I am not repeating what someone else says here. The country provides a ‘luxury’ that the city does not. Especially where I live, in the central plains. Get out of the city and you can find yourself someplace with a clear line of sight of at least a half mile, 360 degrees. Unless these roving bands of looters are equipped with night vision, thermal imaging of some kind, and ‘air assets’ – a crafty person in the country will not have a hard time surviving and simply avoiding any would be attackers. Camouflage, ‘defenses,’ and organization removes roving bands of anyone other than military from the equation. The same goes for Zombies…. ha ha ha…

      68. @DK
        Rev 18:7 IMO describes the USA today and our military and it’s supporters. They are over confident in regards to China and others…JMHO
        I didn’t think I was blowing anything out of proportion, I merely stated that I read an article about China’s Hu telling his navy to prepare for war, which I did read it and he did say it

      69. Sorry BJ if I came across heavy against you, but the Chinese fears here are palatable and totally irrational: a throwback to the Cold War.

        The NWO Globalists in OUR government have worked very hard to enlist China into their system at OUR expense. It is now the Chinese system.

        The CCP has taken the bait hook, line, and sinker and are doing everything to emulate US while retaining their history and culture; and eliminating any mistakes they perceive WE made, such as the way derivatives are created and managed in China.

        Geographically, China and the US are natural partners and competitors, not enemies. China doesn’t even have a Blue Water Navy to project its military power.

        Mutual Assured Destruction still operates for the Great Powers.

        Despite its wealth China has many problems and is quite fragmented just like US. The desire of the CCP is first, to remain in power. They cannot remain in power by destroying the goose that lays the golden eggs (US).

        A more likely comparison between the two countries may be the war in Revelation between Gog and Magog; a thousand years after the return of Christ.

        China sits this war out.

      70. I think we need to sow a lot of plants the next spring. Let’s do it everyone. The tinned food only lasts for so long. If our countries are gardens, it will greatly reduce the distress of everyone. Yeah, I know, there will be a lot of people who are too disabled to even think of the possibility of being able to feed themselves, but maybe at the moment I don’t personally care sparing a few moments to plant some extra berry bushes on the edge of forest — it’s like putting money into bank (well, maybe not the current banking system but forgive me this is an old saying 🙂 ). It will, among other things, reduce the probability of me being killed by hungry people. However small the effect of planting, I KNOW it is a POSITIVE effect. We CAN turn this world into an even slightly better place, it’s just a matter of actually doing our own little part of it.

        Another possibility is to start living on prana (google for Jasmuheen for example). It will not be an option for everyone but anyway it’s worth mentioning. Just in case. Sure it sounds rather outlandish but I have met people who do that so it really is a possibility.

        Best luck for everyone.

      71. @ Gunsmith

        The tetracyclines are a suboptimal choice for long term storage. Most antibiotics can be used well past their expiration dates, but not so for tetracyclines (incl. doxycycline and minocycline).

        Doxycycline can be useful against MRSA, chlamydia, and rickettsial illnesses (e.g., Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever), but tetracyclines deteriorate into compounds that are seriously injurious.

        Alternatives with longer shelf lives (and broader indications) include Septra DS, chloramphenicol, rifampin, and azithromycin. You might consider getting an inexpensive copy of “The Sanford Guide to Antimicrobial Therapy” to have a good grip on antibiotic indications, regimens, and alternatives:

        • Most of the “cyclines” I have had the occasion to use have been stored as a powder to mitigate their short shelf life to a good extent. They are mixed with distilled water immediately prior to use.
          However, John Q. is right – Azithromycin is a FAR better choice.

          • Azithromycin has important uses, but also has important gaps in coverage. A salient gap is azithro’s absence of MRSA coverage. Keep in mind that MRSA (Methicillin-Resisant Staph. Aureus) is a HUGE current problem. For those without sulfa allergy, Septra DS is a good choice for MRSA treatment (though occasional MRSA resistance to Septra is observed).

        • ~John Q~

          Thanks much, sir!

          …an interesting side note, in July of 2010 I spent 10 days in the hospital, several in ICU due to ‘Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever’. Required 5days of IV drip Vancomyocin(sp?) to finally kill it…

          If it weren’t for my wife of 32years(she’s a nurse) & a most merciful GOD…I WOULDN’T BE HERE.

      72. Glad you made it!

      73. PS You probably got the vancomycin with clindamycin. The clindamycin is for the RMSF, the vancomycin is used to prevent clindamycin-caused Clostridium difficile colitis (a potentially fatal complication of using clindamycin).

        I forgot to mention above… cannabis has been show to have benefit against MRSA.

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