As the financial house of cards collapses around us, investors who think they are holding real assets with the claim ticket being a stock certificate, bond or even precious metal warehouse receipt better wake up.
The latest revelation from the MF Global ponzi debacle proves, yet again, that if it’s not in your possession you don’t own it. Take heed.
It’s one thing for $1.2 billion to vanish into thin air through a series of complex trades, the well-publicized phenomenon at bankrupt MF Global. It’s something else for a bar of silver stashed in a vault to instantly shrink in size by more than 25%.
That, in essence, is what’s happening to investors whose bars of silver and gold were held through accounts with MF Global.
The trustee overseeing the liquidation of the failed brokerage has proposed dumping all remaining customer assets—gold, silver, cash, options, futures and commodities—into a single pool that would pay customers only 72% of the value of their holdings. In other words, while traders already may have paid the full price for delivery of specific bars of gold or silver—and hold “warehouse receipts” to prove it—they’ll have to forfeit 28% of the value.
That has investors fuming. “Warehouse receipts, like gold bars, are our property, 100%,” contends John Roe, a partner in BTR Trading, a Chicago futures-trading firm. He personally lost several hundred thousand dollars in investments via MF Global; his clients lost even more. “We are a unique class, and instead, the trustee is doing a radical redistribution of property,” he says.
Roe and others point out that, unlike other MF Global customers, who held paper assets, those with warehouse receipts have claims on assets that still exist and can be readily identified.
Source: Barron’s via Yahoo
The entire paper system – from stocks to bonds – is coming unhinged. There are trillions of dollars in debt across the world, and all of it is nothing but a number on someone’s balance sheet. In essence, the majority of it exists only in the virtual world. While you may think you have claim to a physical asset in exchange for that certificate, receipt or note, what you really have is a promise from an entity that may very well be insolvent and unable to make good.
Financial institutions and brokerage houses like MF Global are just the tip of the iceberg. The accounting practices of our government are far worse, and the consequences of collapse significantly more dangerous. When MF Global collapsed, customers lost access to their precious metals and other investments. When our monetary system, predicated on the same ponzi scheme as insolvent financial companies, crashes, holder of US dollars, much like those MF Global warehouse receipts, will be wiped out in terms of purchasing power, and it will likely be a devaluation much more than just 25%.
But when that happens the holders of those notes won’t be trying to cash them in for precious metals. Rather, they will find that their paper Federal Reserve Notes will buy far less food and gas, if at all.
I like my silver even if it isn’t a precious metal. 🙂
Bill, all my metals are precious to me. Especially the lead!
He’s been waiting up there all day for two to line up. Here, take my hat and jacket idiot and put them on.
can’t we all just get along?
Quigley down under.
Six thumbs down didn’t get it!
Haaaa!
That was awesome!
Perfect timing and delivery!
Sad, that even this site has it’s share of people that didn’t get it.
What a crime.
I like my silver ring – I call it “my precious”!
Getting ripped off for 25% of the PMs they thought they owned, isn’t this similar to the preferred stock, or ‘gauranteed bonds’ or whatever they’re called that the shareholders in Chrysler had? Those people were supposed to get paid first following a bankruptcy and the gov forced them to get in line and take chicken feed with all the others who lost. Doesn’t this look like the same thing?
Am I 1st?….2nd?….3rd? do I get to play in a bowl game?
The bowl of LIFE Okie. What kind of cereal? You were 2nd.
3rds= “ORPHAN MONEY”
Nothing is worth the paper it’s written on. If you don’t hold it you don’t own it! If you hold paper… Go straight to jail, do not collect $200. It’s a viscous cycle
If you hold paper, you only hold paper… which at least can make good fire kindling or toilet paper if nothing else is handy. If you hold a little plastic card with a magnetic stripe, well…
What If This Were to Happen With GoldMoney.com?
Just Sayin’
My metal didn’t shrink by 75%. Yup, it’s still there.
That’s not what she said…. 🙂 sorry, couldn’t resist..
For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius.
I am WOMAN!
Oh. Where you going?… Oh, you men are all alike. Seven or eight quick ones and then you’re out with the boys to boast and brag. YOU BETTER KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT. Oh… I think I love him.
I’m banging on the door to the realm of genius, but they won’t let me in!
Young Frankenstein.. That’s Franken-steen
@ SnS: Heh – yep. Took a moment to get the 2nd reference. The first one from “The Office” was easy. 🙂
It’s Pat!
Anyone doing anything with Corzine should have known ahead of time from his pretty bad track record [Jersey] p.s. don’t use a paper ax to cut a tree
Physical delivery or no sale.. lot’a of big money people have “bought” PM’s and paid to have them warehoused.. just because of the physical and logistical problems of taking physical possession.. what is that old saying ? Possession is 9/10th’s of the Law ?
They bought it, someone else held it; they lost it.
“Or we will arrange storage for you…”
What a shame. I am so thankful that I got all of my PMs out over 2 years ago. Kept telling people to do the same.
Like preparing for when the SHTF, people can’t see the writing on the wall.
If any of you still hold to the thought ‘I’ve lost too much to get out now’, when do you get out? When your account is zero? The bank holidays are soon to follow.
In all probability, the evident “stiffing” investors is a sign of the times, given the corruption that voters put into the White House and in previous places where trust was assumed.
another way to lose 100% of your cash..leave it in a bank
coming to a reality near you, sooner then you think!
I think it was the Daily Crux that ran some articles on how MF Global practices could sink the entire commodities markets had something to do with rehypothication. I have also read from sources I don’t remember that one reason large banks are trying to surpress the prices of PM’s is because they don’t have enough on hand for physical delivery. Ever since the banking crisis a few years ago, people should have taken notice that paper is only that. Take notice of the powerful organizations that were only investing in physical not paper. The Large one that immediately comes to mind is the University of Texas.
Yep, possession is 9/10 of the law with the remaining 1/10 going to the robber who might take it from you. Unless, you’re like me — armed and dangerous (locked and loaded)!!!
Possession is and always has been 9/10th. of the law. It a bitch if you don’t have it.
I have possession of all of my precious metals especially my FMJ.
While FMJ probably doesn’t qualify as an economic PM, it will damn sure qualify when the riff/raff comes sniffing around. My copper plated lead collection is unquestionably precious to me and mine.
All privately held PM’s are gonna shrink when they get illegalized, confiscated and taxed.
You all don’t really believe that you’re gonna be made clever by having a special gimmick do you!
That ain’t the way governments work…….
I keep coming back to this statement because it bothers me. In the 30’s did they go house to house taking gold? They seized it from banks and safety deposit boxes from what I remember. Do you think for one second that there was not one person who kept some of their gold in a root cellar? If they make gun ownership illegal are you going to turn your gun over?
Your statement makes me think that you need a reason for not owning any metals which is fine. I am not trying to have a “special gimmick” I am trying to preserve what I have worked for.
Mushroom, I think you are spot on. Mac you really need to get some discussion going on this… TPTB really are smarter than this. They will either outlaw and confiscate or separate you from your supplies. We don’t really believe they are stupid do we? What if times are getting a little worse but not SHTF yet and they come knock on your door… Sir we are appropriating guns to fight those bad terrorists and you will be helping so much and by the way if you are caught with those guns you say you don’t have you go to jail now!!! Your kids will go to the foster system and your wife will go for aiding you! How many will comply? Almost all! and those that don’t… Waco…. Ruby ridge…
Gold and silver are certainly a store of value. What will we do when you are not allowed to trade directly with your neighbors because you could be suppling a terrorist! So we must limit and have stiff penalties for trade in gold and silver… OH yea and FRN’s too. See what I’m saying.
Folks they are not going to let most of us in any populated area keep any guns… you have heard of the TSA vans that xray… Is it that big a stretch to think they will use them to check out your house without you even knowing?
Please don’t misunderstand my writing .. I will be fighting and probably dying beside many of you in this battle but let’s be knowlegable in our endevors. They know we are prepping and so are they!!! They will have a way to separate us from most of our preps.
I think one of the most critical issues we have is finding and communicating locally with other like minded people. I am thought of as a Kook even within my immediate family.
Just some thoughts…
If they are knocking on doors taking guns it will not be only a little worse, that will be martial law. Then I give them every registered gun I own. No arguments. Same with silver, if they have documentation saying I own it, I will give it to them.
I would believe the argument of aiding terrorists by trading with them in a non fiat currency would work much better in metro areas. It would be hard to believe someone that I have grown up riding horses and working fields with is a terrorist. Or anyone of his relatives. Just would not work in small communities. I believe gov’t first controls population centers, then works itself further out in rural areas using smaller forces to upset community support. That will take time.
I dont think they will come door to door taking guns, i think they will come door to door taking people.
the guns will be left behind with out the trigger puller, thats when it will be safer to go rounding up the iron.
From one kook to another, I’d rather be knee deep in a Ruby Ridge scenario than give up my weapons and food. If they come to my house they will no longer be considered friendlies, in fact they aren’t now.
If everyone will so easily give up their arms what are they doing here?
You guys are too paranoid about the confiscation of PM. TPtb did mot confiscate Karat Jewelry. Keep one half of your stack in easily liquid fractional rounds for the uninitiated and the other half in scrap gold.
Tall Tom
I Cor 13
You make one rather crucial mistake: That governments are efficient and clever enough as a group to actually go house-to-house and confiscate precious metals.
Think about this for a moment: There are 131,704,730 houses, apartments, and other living units according to the 2010 census. How exactly do you propose searching them all? A 20-minute light search of each household would rack up to a little over 5,011 years and 6 months.
Now you could split this among 1,000 small 3-man teams working together, which cuts things down to 5 years. Or, 5,011 teams can do it in just over a year. 60,132 teams can do it in a month. That would mean adding 180,000 officers to the payroll… but that’s 30 days in which to find some damned good hiding spots, no?
…or we could simply look at the last time the government tried to confiscate gold. Executive Order 6102 was what launched it – how well do you think they managed to enforce it? Well, there was exactly one prosecution, and it wound up ruled invalid.
You may want to look up the Wikipedia entry on that executive order… it’s rather enlightening.
OQ, I’m following your math, and I agree with your line of reasoning. But let me throw out another thought. Why bother adding 180,000 officers to the payroll, training and equipping them, and positioning them when there are thousands with training, hands on experience, have experience in rapid deployment, and who are already on the payroll?
For a couple reasons, actually. I agree that the manpower could be there (though the folks they do have now are rather busy at the moment doing their jobs)… but there’s no training for this sort of thing.
There exists a vast world of difference between looking for drugs, and looking for something that has no smell, is small, and is very easily hidden. I mean, certainly, if you deal in the stuff enough you’d be found out, but if you buy discreetly, gather it up, and hidden your existing stash, there’d be nothing to
Look at it this way: I currently live in an apartment. If I had some gold or silver coins stashed away in it, how on Earth would the police be able to find it w/o tearing the place up down to the wall studs? You can’t train a dog to sniff for it, most electronics contain traces of it, and it’s literally everywhere else – including inside teeth.
I guess the original point I was getting at is that you may as well hire police to collect every snowflake that fell on Tibet for all the good it will do you.
OQ,
I was referring to the military and using it against the American people.
You’re #1 Mushroom!
I just watched a move last night called The Margin Call, was pretty good. It was about a firm that started the 2008 financial debachle. Most here would probably like the movie I am thinking.
These people responsible for this and the ones who make these decisions ought to have to pay, and I don’t mean in a courtroom. When people can get a hold of these people and punish them in a not so secretive way, word getting out will stop others from pulling this kind of corrupt fraud. So you can imagine the kind of punishment needed here. Then again, this is not so different from what the bankers have been doing for ever now and we all already know they need punished and exterminated for anything to really change. We also know it isn’t going to happen….so I guess I am just ranting to no avail
Yep, we need to bring back the good ole days so that we “tar-n-feather” some of the more creepy elected officials in Congress (like Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Barney “Sputtering” Frank, Chris Dodd and many others) and some of the CEOs (like the CEO of GE, GM, AIG, and the 8 largest banks; and, let’s not forget IMF global). And, let’s not forget the President and all of his “never worked in a business” henchmen.
If all that can be arranged, I will personally buy the tar… even though it would likely be several thousand gallons and cost a pretty penny. Somethings are, after all… priceless!
during the bolshevik revolution bankers were placed on barges, floated out to sea and and barges sunk. I’m definitely not advocating that – why waste perfectly good barges?
But then, that’s the rub. The guilty in the financial realm are not punished, they are rewarded. They either get to keep their ill-gotten gains OR the government comes in and bails their thieving incompetent butts out of the bankruptcy and prison term they so richly deserve. All this just guarantees that we will always be infested with this vermin. Bernie Madoff’s only error was not being an Obama fund raiser. 🙁
Do nooses and pitchforks mean anything to you?
I like the pear of anguish…..google it! Or “quartered”
Yes, as a matter of fact, they do… and so do torches!
Todays Top News Stories…
The credit downgrade continues to trouble European nations. Italy’s new prime minister was spotted in Lawton Okla yesterday. He was driving down Ft Sill Blvd, stopping at every payday loan company he could find.
Kim Jong Il is dead. North Korean government officials say it will take about 6 months to fully train his successor. In the meantime, Kim will continue to rule the nation.
Speaking of the late N Korean dictator, Senator John I-Was-Never-That-Serious-About-Being-President McCain says Kim is now in a ‘warm corner of hell’ along with BinLaden, Hitler, Stalin and others. If so, he’s probably auditioning for the hell-based AC/DC tribute band. Sorry, Kim, but they don’t need a harmonica player on ‘Back In Black.’
A related story- Manuel Noriega recently returned to Panama, following his hugely successful American and European tours. The Panamanians, in a heartwarming gesture of international compassion, have offered to lend him to the N Koreans, but just until they can find a new permanent tyrant of their own.
The FBI wants a new headquarters building. The old one has a leaky basement and repairs would cost $80 million. Or they could build a new one for only a billion more. So, of course, that’s what they’ll do. The District of Criminals is trying to keep them there but Maryland and Virginia are fighting hard for the new HQ. All three locations have strong selling points- they’re conveniently located near large numbers of criminals, have a history of corruption, and there’s great access to a prostitutes and drugs. What more could you want in a government operation?
Congress nearly finished up with the tax cut extension, but then, at the last minute, realizing they’d almost managed to accomplish something, they torpedoed it. Actually, so many folks complained about the puny two-month extension of the bill, the House Speaker is refusing to pass it. Now the White House is saying the tax increase should be blamed on the Tea Party. Really. If they hadn’t complained, the bill would’ve passed. Using that same logic, I have started a class action lawsuit against the Hostess Baking Company. If they hadn’t made those twinkies so damned delicious, I wouldn’t need to buy bigger pants.
And finally, the hottest new toy this Christmas is the *Occupy Doll from Mattel. ($12.99 @ ‘Toys-B-Us’) It comes in a beat-up cardboard box that folds out into a protest sign. The doll has no specific gender or ethnicity. And it comes with no instructions and no apparent use. It does do a few things though. Pull the string and it emits loud unintelligible noises and pees on your carpet. Plus, if you stuff Doritos in its mouth and prop it on the couch, it’ll watch tv all day long.
(* paid non-endorsement)
SmokinOkie,
I love your sense of humor – the last paragraph is funny, funny, funny because of the reality of it!!!
And, you know who the “Occupy Wall Street” people are – they’re the ones who have time to sit all day and night occupying Wall Street because they have no jobs and lots of free time and they get their money from the government giveaway programs – our hard-earned tax dollars at work.
I don’t know what your “smokin” Okie, but that must be some good stuff. You have a true talent for current and relevant satire. Always a pleasure to read. “Keep smokin”!
Thanks yental. Don’t tell anybody,(need to keep my bad reputation, you know) but I actually don’t smoke, cigs or the other stuff. I stole the name from a band in sw Oklahoma. So far they haven’t sued me!
Very good stuff! 🙂
“What more could you want in a government operation?”
How about some free guns to distribute to Mexican drug cartels? Oops! That one was already taken.
The rule of law is rapidly breaking down.
“The rule of law is rapidly breaking down.”
Uh, no, sorry, not the case. For the rule of law to be breaking down it would first have to exist. It doesn’t. We are now officially a nation of (sort of) men and not a nation of laws. All that matters now is who you know. If you are connected, you can do anything you want… anything at all… and the (so-called) Justice Department will have no interest in pursuing you. Better yet, should any state or state sub-unit offer to prosecute you, the DoJ lawyers and FBI will show up to convince them of the error of their ways. With guns.
The most damning FACT is that while the criminal conspiracy DBA US federal Government is shutting down lemonade stands, allowing peaceful demonstrators to be sprayed with pepper spray and using drones to catch cattle rustlers, Corzine, Obama’s pal, a THIEF, is still walking about with a 300 million net worth, when he should be in prison wearing striped pants..
Why would I buy physical amounts of gold and silver now? If the SHTF the way some think it might, then I will be able to acquire gold and silver, in exchange for maybe a can of beans or a water purifier?
Stock up on essentials that some will desperately need, if the worse case scenario does occur, then you can help others as well as yourself.
Are you questioning yourself? Better late than ever. You’re preaching to us now?
What happens if I have enough food and ammo for a small army? I sure in he’ll don’t want to be holding dollars after the next shoe drops.
“Stock up on essentials that some will desperately need…”
When people become sufficiently desperate, they will first become angry, then they will become violent. If you do not have the means and the will to protect what you own, you will cease to own it. In fact, you just might cease period.
This was a good read. I am really feeling a lot better now. You see I was to busy raising a bunch of kids and putting them through school to ever save any money or make any investments, and I was feeling bad about it but now as I learn more I realize it all would have vanished anyway. I must confess I need to stockpile more and probably more than noodles with sodium packs. Look so doggoned paranoid I can’t even say the name of my favorite food. It sounds like it is going to be just like the old west, I am so thankful to my father for leaving me his collection of western books Louies of course. Basically I think it is going to be a rat hunt just like the old days at the dump. How much is dental gold going to be worth I have seen a lot of bad guys with gold teeth. and while I may seem like I am blowing this off nothing could be further from the truth. I will make my fortune after the fall i guess from services rendered, and dental gold.
You mean Louie l’amour—love him and can learn a lot there!!ESP the sackettswas laid up from an accident oct and nov. Read17 of them. Gonna be wild west sometime soon
Yes, I understand completely. Chinese vise grips or pliers?
Corzine and the “City of London.” soon coming to a book store near you.
What, no Blu-Ray? 😉
As long as the gov can continue the ponzie scheme they will. i.e. More printing and more debt. I for one do not think that the government can take everybody’s gold. They will try to tax it somehow and formulate a ” take or leave it” plan. The wealth transfer is occurring now with the west going to the east. The Chinese government is encouraging their citizens to BUY gold n silver. Our government wants us to spend spend spend..to keep the failing economy going. For sure do not keep too many crisp 10 bills under the mattress, you will wake up one day force to exchange to a new currency..possibly the Amero valued at least 25 percent more than the dollars you have kept safely store if it hasn’t been counterfeiter or no longer accepted.
It seems with all these extreme dollar amount ripoffs that there has to be those times when one of the victims is a drug cartel member or mobster. Makes me think about Madoff’s son found hanging without a suicide note. Wouldn’t surprise me if Corizine gets a little nervous every time he ventures outside.
Speaking of highly prized copper-jacketed lead, how long and deep did the U.S. military go with the [Chinese] tungsten and nylon green bullets? The last time I checked the Chinese owned over 90% of the world’s tungsten and many were claiming they already had us by the balls on that…
Starting in 2012 all FRN’s will be printed on rolls, at least then they will have some value.
Perhaps… but Charmin will always be a better value!
oKay little mushrooms. Pay attention to the boss.
All gold and silver will be made worthless when TSHTF.
The penalties for possession will be so severe and informer rewards will be so high that you will run to the bank to give them all your gold and silver .it might even get so rampant that gold and silver SPECULATORS will be blamed for everything that goes wrong and shot on sight.
You need to have fresh uncirculated federal reserve ten dollar bills and multiple other barter goods…..
I heard an interesting take on metals. I read someplace that it isn’t for when it happens, it is for after when society is being put back together. I think seeds will be worth more than metals during whatever event. But as in every society, once there is trade established there is a need for a medium.
Let me guess… those $10 bills are going into #10 cans?
How To Lose 25% Of Your Ass ets Instantly.
Did I skip a space?
Mike: I believe you are correct, at first metals might be worth something, but you can’t eat them, so they will probably lose their value quickly. FRN’s will be worthless immediately. After the shake out only PM’s will be accepted, because fiat paper currency is what got us into this mess in the first place.
The “banking system” at its’ best. As a family member who IS a financial professional said to me recently, “at the bottom, their business model is to take away as much of what you deposit with them as they can get away with”. The present PM markets are just such a ripoff. He does not own gold in any form, nor will he put is clients into it. Once TSHTF, the stuff won’t have any practical value. I sure won’t accept any in trade – if only because the guy I got it from would know I had it, and sooner or later I’d have to defend it with force. Best thing to have, IMHO, is useful skills and knowledge. They can’t be stolen, are portable, and will be in demand everywhere. I’m a metalworker, but I wish I knew more about animal husbandry and growing crops. The ratio of farmers to non-farmers is in for a huge adjustment if long-distance trade and transport of foodstuffs breaks down. Which it will if the credit and monetary systems go chaotic.
I agree with you about knowledge and skills. My best friend is a farrier and I keep telling him he won’t go hungry, once people run out of gas for their rangers, it will be back to working cattle the old fashioned way. I love that idea, is the most relaxing part of my summer day is to saddle up my horse and check fields. But the problem with any trade, is people will know you have something they need otherwise you wouldn’t be trading with them.
“Best thing to have, IMHO, is useful skills and knowledge. They can’t be stolen…”
While I have great respect for knowledge and skills, to say “they can’t be stolen” is ludicrous. Ever hear of slavery? If SHTF we very well could be seeing EVERY ugly side of human nature. On the other hand, maybe you’re right. At the very least, they feed slaves. Anyone not useful may be coming to dinner on a plate.
The Last one that tried to confiscate weapons down here in TEXAS was Santa Anna.
Coach
In 1939 in Poland there were a lot of skillful and knowledgable people. The only ones that got out alive
were the ones that had GOLD and Silver/
The gold and silver we are buying is for our grand children.
Stupid
The Old Coach
If we decline to the level of survival by barter anarchy will rein. Commerce would come to an end, grocery stores would be without food. Unless you have a significant amount of land sufficient to feed a farm hand / security force it’s only a matter of time before your gone too.
How To Lose 42% Of Your Wealth…. buy silver.
You should of ran this at the top of the silver bubble back in April 2011.
Gold to fall 42% during 2012.
Gold to fall 42%? Good. That is called a buying opportunity. Personally I do not see that deveoping. But if it does then I will be adding to my stack.
Tall Tom
I Cor 13
Something to consider…
The precedent set by the MF Global incident can now be applied to commercial banks, meaning your house, vehicles, real estate investments, etc… any assets that the banks have a lien upon, can be assumed and sold off in a crisis.
Private property and the rule of law is DEAD! The commissar is coming!
🙂
“any assets that the banks have a lien upon, can be assumed and sold off in a crisis.”
If only that was the worst of it, James. Seems that the Californicators have a law wherein if property is “abandoned” in a bank safety deposit box, the state can steal… er, confiscate it. Problem is, they have defined this as 3 years, then 1 year, and soon maybe 6 months worth of not contacting the bank. Lots of folks have lost very valuable property, including irreplaceable family heirlooms. Many of them had ID inside their boxes WITH names, addresses, and phone numbers but apparently the state would rather loot the public than make a simple phone call. It’s getting ugly out there and it’s only just starting. 🙁