Denninger: Either Accept the Math and Damage Now Or Suffer Political and Economic Collapse

by | Jul 9, 2010 | Karl Denninger | 81 comments

Do you LOVE America?


    Karl Denninger of TheMarket Ticker provides insights into why recessions are a necessary part of our economic system.

    Contrary to popular opinion, government intervention is not required during recessions, and most often results in hindering the rebalancing of the system. Denninger gives us the hard mathematical truth:

    I don’t know how much larger one could have made the so-called “stimulus.”  But just as in 2003 it failed to produce lasting prosperity or turn around the economy because the Ponzi Economic “pull forward” on demand (via increased credit) had hit the wall.

    That’s the ultimate failure of all of these so-called “economists.”  They simply disregard debt – on purpose.

    This is idiotic, and worse, it’s intentionally misleading.  Anyone with half a brain knows that debt has to be repaid, and that if you have an economic system with $100 in currency and yet permit someone to loan what part of it they have at interest it is inevitable that the interest will ultimately consume all of the $100!

    The answer to that is usually “emit more currency!”  Yet this leads to a second conundrum – one can only emit more credit or currency (both spend the same) at a rate that matches growth in output, lest you get inflation.  Inflation means that you really didn’t accomplish anything, as while there are more units of currency (and/or credit) available in the economy each one purchases fewer goods or services.

    The only way to prevent this from happening is to accept periodic recessions in which both borrowers and lenders who take and make the weakest loans fail and go bankrupt.

    That causes the credit and debt (remember, credit and debt are the counter-balancing entries on both sides of the balance sheet) to be removed – and balance restored.

    Recessions are particularly hard on creditors that loaned capital unsecured, as they take actual uncompensated losses.  Those who loaned capital in a secured fashion get the collateral, which may adjust in price downward to it’s actual value, but it doesn’t go to zero.  The unsecured lender, on the other hand, is faced with a complete loss.

    The feedback mechanism (losses suck!) cause lenders to increase the price of capital – that is, the interest they demand.  This in turn causes people to be more adverse to taking out credit for anything other than productive purposes – that is, to speculate or consume.

    Through this natural set of feedback mechanisms (known as economic pain by those who experience it) the market works to restore balance – and protect the monetary system as a whole.

    Government interference with this process always introduces undesirable distortions.  By picking winners and losers government causes misallocation of capital – that is, it subsidizes losing behavior.  By preventing fools from suffering their economic fate, government suppresses rates of interest charged for capital, which inevitably leads to negative real rates and thus speculative asset bubbles (after all, if you’re going to get paid to borrow, you will borrow as much as you possibly can!)

    We either accept the math and the damage that must be taken through our economy or we will suffer a political and economic collapse.

    Those are the only options folks – we argue only “when”, not “what.”

    Read the full article, complete with charts and math

    We don’t need the government to help home prices, energy prices or employment to stabilize. The economic system will move towards equilibrium by cleaning out bad debt from the system – as long as the government stays out of the way.

    Chances are that the government will not move out of the way. Thus, if Karl Denninger is correct about his mathematical assessment, then we should all prepare for the end result of their attempted machinations – and it’s not going to be pretty.

    It seems to us that while Mr. Denninger attempts to provide a road map for our government officials to follow, he has also resigned himself to the likelihood of the end result being an economic collapse and destabilization of our entire system because no one in Congress is listening. The shit is going to hit the fan sooner or later, and as Denninger himself suggested in a previous piece If You Haven’t Acquired Self Defense Capabilities, the Time to Do So Was Yesterday.

    We’d suggest that you also look into other ways to preserve your well being, as self defense capabilities will only get you so far if the system around us falls apart.


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      1. WHEN,WHEN,WHEN???, I’m sick of waiting

      2. 37 trillion dollars in lost equity values globally. There’s American leadership for you!

      3. Mac… I think everyone who comes here thinks like you.  The SHTF  is coming,  and the only thing we don’t know for sure, is when.
        It takes a long time to sink a big ship,  and the USA is the biggest.   This government  is doing it’s best to speed up the sinking.

        Government meddling has caused all our problems and always will.   100+ years ago,  one could just move west to get away from the Gov meddlers,  but now we have no where to go.

        So,  like many who come here to read your blog,  we hunker down and wait it out.   Some with toilet paper, and some without.  lol

      4. Yep, it’s inevitable now. I still think we got a few years of suck before we hit the final wall. Unless the GOM and/or the Iran War will be the event(s) that hasten our total economic annihilation.

      5. Or, it could be, some WITH buckshot, some WITHOUT.  $2.50 a box at Cabela’s folks, don’t miss out…….:)

      6. When my wife and I first starting “prepping”, this word was never used in the since it is now.  My then small children thought mom and dad were nuts.  I always told them that if TSHTF they would be thrilled to be eating what ever it was they had in their grubby little hands.    Now as adults, 20 and 23, they still think mom and dad are a bit nuts.  But not like they use to….    Now they both realize that things are not as they seem.   They see the idiot in the white house and see where we’re heading.   My son even gave serious thought to not going back to school this fall.   If he was paying for it he probably wouldn’t be.  (Full ride for him and his parents.)   Things are strange out there.   We all have a lot to be thankful for and I for one am thankful to have been living within my means for so many years and also for the supplies in the basement.   I’m ready physically and spiritually but mentally it scares me some.

      7. what government? there  is no government -there’s just a bunch of legislators doing what the banking cabal and a bunch of powerful corporations tell them to do through middlemen called lobbyists…

        what could be more obvious than this? 

      8. This isn’t stupidity, deranged Bush syndrome or even incompetence.  This is a devilish intentional grounding of the ship of state to create an emergency so that we will let them grab more power.  More taxes, more infringement on our constitutional rights,  more laws, more bureaucracy, more control…  We are in a tail spin and I don’t think we can pull out of this one.  If you doubt me watch what happens after the election.  Even if the Democrats lose congress (which they might not) the lame duck session will be naked destruction of our country.  And the pre-election will be the dirtiest politics since JFK was elected by dead people and nuns voting 5 times each.  Watch and learn the true nature of the people we elected. 

      9. In the end wealth must exchange for wealth.  Money is mere medium of exchange, especially in a fiduciary money system.
        Krugmanism amounts to foolery. By his own words, Paul Krugman does not get money, credit, commercial banking and central banking.
        Adding money into circulation does nothing except raise prices on goods that get paid for by cash and near cash (debit cards, checks), even when non-revolving consumer credit falls and commercial credit falls.
        This is why prices of food increases, when net deflation happens (a fall in total credit).
        When Non-Revolving Credit falls, prices fall for things like furniture, whole kitchen renovation, cars.
        When Commercial Credit falls, prices fall on capital goods.
        Yet, in a fiduciary money system, the only way for extant to get destroyed is by a rise in bank deposits with a subsequent fall in demand for cash — fewer ATM and bank teller withdrawals.
        That never happens.
        Politicians and bureaucrats destroy wealth through direct consumption — paper products, electricity usage — and inhibit wealth creation by propping up prices in markets, which stops far-seeing investors from buying capital goods since they cannot see if prices have hit rock bottom.
        Thus, stimulus spending does nothing except to enrich those of special interest groups by giving them cash, e.g., unionized workers.
        I explain it all on my web site, redpilltrip at blogspot.

      10. Mr. Mac Slavo is 100% correct in his predictions; it isn’t a question of IF anymore, it’s a question of WHEN. If the average Citizen of the United States attempted to manage their personal/family finances the way that our government and the banks manage theirs …….. we would all be doing life in prison without any possibility of parole!

        One day in the very near future (WHEN?), people are going to suddenly wake up en masse and  realize that our beloved Emperor Barkie Obungle and the rest of his cronies are in fact walking down the middle of the street naked!

        Those of us who are presently awake in our country and are able to see in which direction things are heading will have a softer landing than those presently involved with watching American Idol. BOHICA peeps ……. SOON!

      11. I think we’ve got two, maybe three more years of depression, at which time we’ll be at war with Iran, the oil volcano will still be spewing, countless people in the Gulf region will be sick beyond all imagination, and finally, China will decide they want their money back.  You can sprinkle in a hurricane or earthquake here and there, you get the picture.

        We need to face up to the fact that it no longer matters who we elect or why.  None of these assholes (D, R, or TP) is going to do what needs to be done.  Every person running for an elective office in the USA has sold their soul, and is probably a  fascist saboteur or outright communist traitor (this includes all the heroes of various factions, Obama, Ron Paul and his racist kid, that retard from South Carolina, Sarah “Balin” Palin, Harry Reid, Sharron Angle, Patty Murray, Dino Rossi), and anyone with their name on a ballot.  Even ambulance chasing, TV commercial tax dodging lawyers are better than that list of scum.

        The only thing left for us is to prep ourselves as best we can.

      12. You know what we outta do is get the names of every dog catcher in the nation, put all their names in a hat, and start drawing at random to fill all the jobs in government.  When we run out of dog catchers, we can get the names of all the toilet scrubbing janitors and throw them in there, and just keep on going until every job from doorman to POTUS is filled.  Jesus Christ I’m pissed off…………

      13. i stopped reading him months ago. this guy thinks we should maintain our troops in iraq to maintain our standard of living which consumes a lot of oil.

      14. Bp will cut off the oil leak in  less than a month from now .The Attack on Iran is going to  happen, But it should be before there nucular reactor goes live in August .Because once its loaded with the radiactive rods, it will be  messy if they attack with more damage from clouds of radiactive vapors wondering around.Let the sanctions work for a few months and see what happens ? Obama will spend some more Trilions to flood the market until Presidential re election comes up in 2012.There wont be a crash but  market being down and some more bad data on jobs and economy . But thtey are just buying time because with out jobs here in the states, there is no stopping the downward spiral to hell.Voteing wont change much but make the average citizen feel empowered for a bit  and then its back to the same old thing. Meanwhile they continue to follow there agendas of more Taxes and more legislations and more loss of American freedoms .It Truly will take a Revolution to make the change that is required and it wont be done by voteing only !  The Tree of liberty is Thirsty and we will have to fight for our Freedoms back if we will live free or be inslaved by a Governmental control system .

      15. I read all all of this and I agree with most.  I agree the Tree of Liberty is thirsty.  I agree that something has to happen.   Our government sucks and they are all a bunch of worthless pieces of shit…..        But in my world the only way this will happen is if someone else starts something and I’m brought into it.    How will this happen?  Who has big enough balls or maybe too small a brain to “fire the first shot”, the second one heard around the world.   In the mean time our turds in the shit house in washington will keep moving forward with their demands and their agendas all the while knowing the sheep can do nothing.   Any small rebellions will quietly be taken care of by the local cops.         We’re all fucked anyway.   I’m pissed too and so are most everyone I know but all we can do is bitch…………..  

      16. Well Bill, we can do better than just being pissed.  And you know what?, some pea-brain is going to start things off for you (and me).  Somewhere, someone living in a densely populated urban center, is going to go off when the SHTF and start major (shooting) riots.  Worse than the Rodney King riots years ago.  They are gonna freak out when there’s food shortages, or no electricity, or no gas, or something.  This asshole who’s going to do us this favor has never spent even one minute preparing himself, or his family, with anything more than the “3 days, 3 ways” plan.  So when a genuine emergency hits, he and everyone he knows, are going to be without food, water, and fuel.  Naturally, him and all his buddies will immediately begin looting.  That’s where it starts for us.

        People who have prepared, and DON”T LIVE in cities, are going to have every opportunity to make it through this hard time.  We can be ready for the troubles when they come.  That is what we can do.

      17. Johny, that were you got it wrong. The people in the cities are going to go to the country sides and take what they want . All the food and water  and ammo you stored for many years will do you nothing when your dead.  You may kill a few or a few dozen but the numbers will be so large they will overwelm you and your neighbors. The scenerio will be SHtF, you notice peopel after a few days leaving the cities and then multitudes coming out to escape .these people are robbing, killing, stealing and taking what they need as move on out  .They see your house  and start to come to youer drive way, you open up on them with some family members and take out 10 of them .but later that night they have 1000 surrounding your house and have all roads blocked off to isolate you .They use an old stolen frod truch filled with hay and drenched in gasoline , they stick a piece of wood on the throttle and its aimed right at your house, they start the truck and ignite the  payload ofm hay .It rams into your house and cathces it on fire, soon you realise that the house is burning and that the smoke is so thick that you must vacate the house .Meanwhile they are waiting for you , armed with ar15 and bolt actio nrifles with scopes , as you all flee the house , they open up on you from all angles and you die on what is left of your property .Many people know that ranchers and farmers have generators, guns, livestock, well water, and especially gas or propane tanks on the property . If the food is not in the stors or on the shelves, its in peoples homes or its in the country .I sure wouldnt want to live withen 500 miles of any big city but that is being unrealistic. The truth is dreams of holding out in the country is just that – a dream .

      18. I’d sure as hell rather start out in the country and take my chances.    The way you make it sound you may as well give up now.

      19. Yet, it is unlikely that you are going to live in a Mad Max world. A more likely scenario is that as people get poorer, they agitate for totalitarian change and either group of sweet-promising communists arise or a military dictator does.
        Luckycharm is right, though. I’ve said for years that stockpiling is a fool’s strategy.
        You might get lucky and defend yourself against one or two, but against a dozen or more, you are going to lose.
        Assuming that collapse happens and chaos reigns, the right strategy is to learn how to live by foraging and hunting.
        If you can’t survive living with only a knife, you are in trouble.
        The smarter man or woman visits the national parks and open spaces managed today by the Bureau of Land Management.  When there, he or she learns what animals live there, how to track them and what water sources are there.
        If you’re a smarter paranoid, you bring canteens with you, GPS and a map. You bury canteens of water that you can recover later. You mark where you have buried them on your map with your GPS.
        Your maps are your back ups when you run out of batteries.
        People waste their time and money stockpiling. Better they spend their money traveling, learning the terrain, camping, learning outdoor survival skills.

      20. I think Luckycharm is laying out the scenario he hopes will happen.  I live in a wooded and hilly region with a small farming community nearby.  We are not within walking distance of major urban areas.  Even if we were, everyone here knows everyone else.  The odds of Luckycharms chain of events happening to me are so miniscule as to be not worth considering.

        People like me and Bill, who live in these areas are better off than we’re being given credit for here.  If hordes of looters came out here and tried something on that order, it is entirely possible that they could end up being the ones surrounded.

      21. Sure,  Jonny V, I can see what you suggest. Yet, every place is within walking distance, eventually.
        In a Mad Max scenario, flash battles would arise. The winners would be those who get fighting tactics.
        Yet, the gloomers and doomers in the Stockpiling Community have it oh-so-wrong.
        They are as wrong as those who feared the Soviet Union and thus built atomic bomb fallout shelters in their basements in the 1950s and 1960s. Those people look oh-so-foolish today.
        Long before a Mad Max scenario would arise, as they get ever poorer, most Americans would agitate for ever more welfare, even if it means having to live under a Hugo Chavez like regime.
        The smart man or woman of today learns how to earn surplus cash within the U.S.A, and then takes that cash and bets on countries that have futures. In short, he or she exports his money into investments held within other countries and subject to the laws of other countries and not the laws of the United States.
        Thus, if a Hugo Chavez style American democracy would arise to replace the U.S. as it is today, the smarter man would have jumped ship already, living a new life in his or her new country upon money and assets the  already there awaiting him or her denominated in currency of his new country.
        Those who stockpile are suckers. Because of their false beliefs and ignorance about human nature and how the world works, easily, they get sold products they do not need by those who take advantage of fear.
        For every dollar, a stockpiling sucker wastes on survival packs, canned food or bullets, that sucker could have exchanged that dollar for say a Chilean peso or Australian dollar and invested in those countries.

      22. @Sporting Dude……I agree with the points you laid out in your posts.  I’m spending lots of time trying to become at least proficient in as many different methods of getting food as possible.  Bait (gear) fishing, fly fishing, trapping crawdads, gardening, learning from the farmers market guys, hunting and studying hunting, learning wild edible plants, and so forth.

        I’m trying to live up to what I learned in the Corps.  It’s not enough to be prepared one way, you should have several ways.  I think that Luckycharm has it in his head that he’s going to be leading a gang of 1000 bloods or crips into the countryside to “take what he wants”.  Thats how his post came accross, to me anyway.  It sounded like he wanted to be the big bad guy, with his little AR-15, telling the poor country folk how things were gonna be.  If that was his intent, he’s in for a rude awakening.  No one out here is gonna roll over for any gang members.

        I do agree that the USA is no longer the smartest place to invest your money, as you point out.  The rest of the world is beginning to figure this out as well.  The Chinese have a new credit rating organization that has us rated as “AA, with a negative outlook”.  Here’s the address if you want to look the article over.

      23. Dude, first you have us living in the woods like Rambo and now we’re investing in other countries so we can leave at just the right time to survive ?    I’d rather take my chances where I live and where my neighbors and I can help each other.    If push comes to shove then I plan on shoving back as long as I can.  When they push the old flaming truck towards my house then and only then will I leave.    You’ll be the one running the woods looking for something to munch on. 

      24. @Jonny V. You have it right. Proficiency in a few, unrelated methods gives a man a survival edge.
        You might be right about Luckycharm and a gangsta dream. I cannot peer into his heart to know.
        Thanks for that link. The key is get your rights of ownership out of U.S. dollar assets and into foreign assets in countries that you believe have a future. Some bets might be wrong.
        Because of China and India, Asia has a future and thus betting on countries that trade with the Chinese or Indians is prudent.
        However, it might be far easier to get out of the U.S.A. through Mexico and into Central America or South America than it would be to go across the Pacific.

      25. @Bill. Running the woods, me? Not likely. Maybe that’s how others deal with pressure, but I don’t run for anyone, ever.
        If devolution into a socialist dictatorship regime happens, I’ll be paying for my children and my passage out of the country, before it is too late.
        Like flipping on a light switch, I’ll be turning on my new life in an instant, with an already built-in high-living standard that awaits for me.
        Yet, if I get stuck in America, I’ll be walking casually in places no goes because they don’t know how to live off the land and they do not know how to deal with wide variation in climate.
        Eventually, I’ll get out.
        What are you going to be doing, Bill? Getting poorer by the second until someone comes to kill you for crumbs? That’s your plan?
        Can we trust our neighbors? For decades they have agitated for ever more welfare like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, TANF, SNAP (formerly called “food stamps”), Section 8.
        Most would turn on their neighbors in a snap for a bit more privilege.
        Soviet Union history, Chinese history, Eastern European history and even U.S. history since World War 2 proves this.

      26. When the SHTF, I mean when the shit really hits the fan …. and I’m not talking about a credit crunch or serious inflation …. I’m not talking about the theft of your money by the FED, or the meltdown of the mortgage market ….. I’m talking about a Mad Max scenario that I believe will occur with the Pole Shift based upon physical, measureable indicators happening now, and accelerating over the next five years and happening within my lifetime.

        That will be a true SHIT scenario when credit has collapsed, supply lines are disrupted and food shortages occur within the United States. It will be the greatest disaster to hit the earth in 65 million years. The cities will be a living hell. Looting will be rampant, murders commonplace, and law and order spotty if not non-existant. First the looters will hit the stores and warehouses for supplies. When those supplies are depleted, they will move house to house. I don’t have to tell you what that will mean for the people living in the cities and in the suburbs. Chaos will reign. Only the strongest, fittest, and most ruthless will survive.

        By the time these animals realize that they have to move out into the rural areas where some people are living, farming, and building the world anew, gasoline will be virtually non-existant. These people are not going to walk out of the cities. Most of them would be hard pressed to walk five miles. A few maybe, but most of them will die there at the hand of each other after realizing that the rations that are left go farther with fewer mouths to feed.

        Finally, a few desperate, ugly souls will venture out to the rural areas. They will be met by well fed, well armed groups that have organized themselves into a civilized unit to protect their homes, families, and livihood. They will be out matched by the wise, the prudent, the frugal, and the prepared.

        If the haven’t brought their own toilet paper, then they are shit out of luck!

      27. @Durango Kidd.
        No one accepts the cataclysmic pole shift hypothesis, although consensus exists over  the true polar wander, which has happened no faster than 1° for each million years.
        Your scenario reads like a good Hollywood movie.  (Make it. I’d enjoy watching it!) Yet, the historical record dating to the Ancient Greeks never has humans devolved into a Mad Max scenario.
        Even during the fall and collapse of Ancient Rome, the Gemanic people lived in advanced societies, with their own law.
        The best bet is that the U.S.A. goes ever closer to totalitarian socialist dictatorship rather than Max Max chaos.

      28. @Johnny V

        only 3-4 more years of DEPRESSION? how about at least 10 more? Perhaps 20?

        The Depression really hasn’t even started yet. Wait till the market comes back down to earth once again and the stimulus runs out!

      29. Sporting Dude: The Pole Shift / Reversal  is a scientific fact, whether you believe it or not. And its wayyyy over due.

        I am aware of the wanderer theory. But that fact is that the North Magnetic Pole has wandered way over to Siberia, and there is a massive magnetic anomoly in the South Atlantic Ocean where Cayce predicted the new South Pole more than seventy years ago.

        As far as history never recording a “Mad Max” scenario, I would remind you that “history” is always written by the winners. I think there is considerable evidence in history to document man’s inhumanity to man. The last time there was a Pole reversal, humans were still living in the trees.

        Think outside the box or you will be trapped to live inside of it.

      30. I know that the Durango Kidd’s pole shift thing sounds crazy, but it’s a fact that the magnetic poles reverse themselves every few hundred thousand years.  No one really knows what this will mean, as Neanderthals were still the dominant humans on the planet the last time it happened.

        I don’t think that any German people achieved “advanced societies” until hundreds of years after the fall of Rome (Charlemain and his empire).  At the time of the Roman downfall, Atilla the Hun was the preeminent german figure.

        The whole Mad Max thing is just something to fantasize over.  The reality is that society probably will not fall totally apart (even with 10 or 20 years of depression).  Our nation may fall apart.  That much appears more likely every month.

        The fact remains that people will have to get by with the resources available to them, and that means their local community.  Hence the importance of “social networking”.  If my social network is broad and good enough, I stand a good chance of bartering my skilled labor (construction) for things I need.  It may also be possible for me to barter my unskilled labor (farm labor) for things I need.  At the same time, I am participating in the community, providing value to others.  It’s people who provide no value to others who will be left out.  Many different approaches to working the problem will carry the day.

      31. @Durango Kidd Many so-called scientific facts claimed by Academia have turned out to be bogus. That said, I’ve yet to read any works by current Ph.D.s of legit schools who have made a massive pole reversal.
        Contemporary history gets written by the winners, yes. However, long ago history gets re-written into closer to reality storytelling.
        The latinate word, community might be the most oversaid, word by English speakers. It’s meaningless.
        It’s used by NGO leeches seeking tax dollars under the guise of economic re-development.
        Value arises only when reciprocal demand arises.

      32. Sporting Dude: I agree with pretty much everything you have written, including scientific facts written by Academia that are bogus. It wasn’t long ago that Mars was considered a lifeless body and the moon waterless. We now know those propositions to be untrue; if one accepts the “Martian Rock” recovered on earth as evidence of microscopic life having  existed at some point on Mars; if it doesn’t now. Water on the moon is now a fact.

        With respect to Pole Reversal don’t know who you are reading but it is an established fact and your local geophysicist can explain to you that when the location of the magnetic poles change, the magnetic orientation is imprinted on the rocks laid down at that time. Maybe GEOGYPSY can provide some edification for you with respect to that.

        That is how we know that Pole Reversal or Realignment is a fact and has occurred many, many times in the past. Its been more than 730,000 years since the last change. That co-incindentally coincides with the Yellowstone Super Volcano.

        Whether there is a direct correlation between these events is beyond my pay grade.

      33. Comments…..Wow, amazing comments regarding polar reversal, if you would like to know this science it’s best to study the experts in this field, the first is Michael Farrady, this man is no doubt the best electrochemist you will find. Once you have done so then you can make up your mind between the two theories, who’s right Ptolemy or copernicus, then it’s like taking the blue pill or the red pill. You either continue to live in LaLa land and continure to believe in dinasours and the million year theory or you will become enlightened and learn the true concept of polar reversal and geometric progression.
        Without getting into details, the poles reverse once , they do so at the 180 degree mark, it’s not the poles that are charged it’s the field they enter. How does this work, and when did we cross the middle point of the circle? learn to square the circle and the problem is solved.
        Gentlemen, the scripture states”‘ Do not act like a parrot repeat what you hear without true knowledge thereof””. Just some advice.

      34. @SportingDude…..I whole-heartedly agree with your comments “The smart man or woman of today learns how to earn surplus cash within the U.S.A, and then takes that cash and bets on countries that have futures”.  You seem to have already thought this scenario through.  With 3 small children, I have come to the same conclusion.  The U.S. is not a place I want to be when the SHTF.  So my question to you is “which countries do you think can survive a global meltdown?”  Could you recommend a top 3-5 countries and reasons why.  I have struggled with this question for awhile. 

      35. @Jonny V. Many people have misconception of Germanic peoples. And yes, their societies were advanced. They had rules and structures.
        The Huns were nomadic tribes from Central Asia with mixed origin, not Germanic.
        Theodoric I, the Germanic Visigoth king, defeated in Attila the Hun  at the the Battle of Châlons in 451.
        It’s not necessary for a people to rule over an area the size of France or all of Western Europe to be considered advanced.

      36. @BamaBlue
        Thanks for your thoughts. What countries? It’s a gamble.
        China and India have hummed along for awhile under their present governing systems and yet seem to have economic growth each year.
        Thus, I would bet the Chinese and the Indians shall call for more resources and capital goods each year.
        With that in mind, I’d bet on resource countries, countries that can supply the Chinese and Indians — Australia, New Zealand, Chile.
        I don’t see a global economic meltdown happening, ever. What we are seeing is a battle.
        On the one side are Collectivists — unionized government workers, oligopolist corporatists and redistribution-seeking racist groups — and on the other side are Individualists — disorganized individuals as private sector wage earners, shopkeepers and other entrepreneurs.
        The Collectivists want to have given to them a higher living standard without earning it. Unionized government workers want high pay and outrageous guaranteed retirements without much work. Oligopolists want to rid themselves of competitors while restricting supply, which leads to higher prices. Redistribution-seeking racists — NAACP (blacks), La Raza (Hispanics), NOW (women), Act Up! (gays) — all want subsidized purchasing power through welfare and job  preferences without working for such.
        However, you can bleed only so far before the tipping point gets passed and the person cannot recover. We are near that point.
        Collectivists bleed Individualists through income taxation and regulation that inhibits their acts.
        Many like to make the Fed Res a bogeyman, but in truth, Income Taxation is the great scourge. It is the source upon which politicians borrow endlessly. It is the source from which Collectivists demand redistribution.

      37. Johnny,bill and others,
        All im saying is simply this. People talk about there 50 acres in the woods and how far out of town they are  and this and  that .The reality is that people from the cities will be moving out of them in vast numbers.Food will make people do strange and dangerous things and in these times, its groups that will survive the longest . Question is were will they go ? Were the people who dont live in the cities are. Most everybody will head to the hills or head north to try to escape the wrath of it. Honestly,what farmhouse do you know of that doesnt have a well, livestock, propane or gas and some guns and ammo ?  One thing about it is taht america really has never suffered from hunger like Ireland and Europe did .Even in the Bible it talks about a women who ate half of her son because there was no food. We have never experienced things like that  but it has happened in the past .This nation is unprepared to not have food in the grocery stores  for just 1 month.You thought the LA  riots or Katrina was bad, imagine it on a nation wide scale . !  The average person would be out of food in less than 3 weeks in there house.We no longer farm and grow gardens a have pieces of property, nor do we can  or preserve food like in the older days .We have lost our abiluty to feed ourselves and now the majority of americans are dependant on the Government . I decided to live off the land for 3 days .I took my fishing pole , shotgun and some shells, sleeping bag and water  purifier and water containers and a magnesium flint. I survived the 3 days but it was not one bit fun .I managed to catch some fish and kill  several  rabbit’s and even was lucky to find some wild blackberrys .It was tough .I cant imagine a family trying to live like that for very  long. What is strange is that i went some were off the beated path and at  hiked in at least 8 miles from any known dirt roads in the mountains . You wouldnt last long in wintertime were i was at  and you would hunt and fish that areas out really quick if you stayed there for a week .I really dont think people have a real idea until they do this themselves.  when i got back fro mhiking back the 8 miles and drove home form a 1.45 minute drive, An ice cold beer and Pizza was only on my mind and then riund Table pizz restaurant came into view.  I swear that was the best tasting beer and pizza i have had in 35 years of my life ! One more thing people i forgot to mention , dont forget the toilet paper like i did .It took a dive in the water and some leaves to get that clean feeing back !  Even somethign as small as toilet means a lot -something to think about ! 

      38. Well, Luckycharm, you don’t come across like a gansta this time.  I knew there couldn’t be any of those on this site anyway.  As to your points, I think you’re right about people leaving the big city in a time of crisis.  I do think the numbers might be smaller than we imagine.  Old people aren’t going anywhere, some will try to organize and make it, others will stay and try to guard what they do have.  That still leaves a sizeable number that will head out and do like you say, however.

        The point is that folks out in the countryside are already forming these community groups, and so when the outside group shows up, I feel that it’s likely to be a group on group confrontation, rather than one group going from house to house looting the place dry.  They might get a few houses into it, but then they will be confronted by the group.

        As far as living off the land, yeah it’s a bitch.  Gotta know what you’re doing, that’s for sure.  Takes more than watching “Jerimiah Johnson” a couple times.

      39. Community Groups only get formed by ghettoites and other urbanites who seek tax dollars in the form of grants for their “community”, e.g., the Black Community, the Gay Community, the Senior Community.
        Obama was a community organizer.
        Never confuse a town and townspeople with a community.

      40. As far as people leaving the cities, sure some will come. But most will just try to relocate to a smaller city to get away from the gangstas before their resources are depleted.  The vast majority of people do not have the skills to survive in the wilderness and if you get more than a few miles outside of a small town here in the Southwest mountains, you are in the wilderness. Eventually their RV’s will run out of gas and they will be sitting in a Wal-Mart parking lot waiting in line to use the bathroom.

        I think it also depends where in the US you live. In the Southwest mountain states where I live, you better know where the water is located and where a cave or old mine is at because you will need water and shelter from the elements while you search for food.

        Farmers in the Midwest will be targets.

        A homestead outside of a small town in the Sourthern Rockies is probably pretty safe from the maddening crowds. They would have to be coming here to get here and if they got here, their done.

        Countries outside the US: Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and Switzerland. The last three are probably too far to reach in a true shtf scenario unless you relocate now. I wouldn’t want my investments somewhere I wasn’t, unless it was a Swiss account. Swiss banks have been rock solid for 400 to 500 years. And then I would want my deposit in a gold account.

      41. @Durango Kidd. I enjoy your comments. Thanks for posting.
        It seems that your beliefs rest on some sort of overnight pole shift, where Americans lack sufficient time to respond. I don’t see it. Yet, I am willing to read legit theoretical commentary upon the subject, if such commentary is grounded in laws of physics.
        You write, “Eventually their RV’s will run out of gas and they will be sitting in a Wal-Mart parking lot waiting in line to use the bathroom.”
        Have you lived in an urban area, ever?
        In a Mad Max scenario, long before persons wait in line, they’re going to defecate and urinate right in park lots. Persons do this now, all the time, at sporting events and in large cities, like New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Philadelphia. They have not needed a polar shift to relieve themselves.
        Also, you write, “Farmers in the Midwest will be targets.”
        Where are farmers going to get diesel to run their Massey-Ferguson combines?
        In a Mad Max scenario, everything stops, including the refining of oil. Without machinery, farming becomes a subsistence proposition.
        Only those farmers who can amplify their labor through horses or other farmers might achieve a food surplus beyond their own needs.

      42. Sporting Dude:   I lived in Chicago for the first twenty years of my life. Scottsdale-Phoenix for the last 35. So it is safe to assume that I know all about urban areas. My background is real estate and finance. I flew around the top 15 major markets in the country for awhile for one of the major banks evaluating commercial and luxury residential REO properties for senior management before working in shopping center development. I am semi retired now, developing a gold mine and a couple of oil & gas leases. I only spend the summers in the mountains, to beat the heat of Scottsdale. What I know about geology stems from the fact that I am a very successful prospector and do considerable reading in that area. The last book I read in that area was The Geology of Ore Deposits, a text book of 900 pages. Its a hobby.

        As far as farmers being targets, it wouldn’t make much sense for the city dwellers to leave the city if they didn’t think they could get food from the farmers, or had no other option available. Yes in a true Mad Max scenario oil refining stops, unless you look at Ahjerbijan for example where 10,000 producing wells were being targeted, and the stolen oil processed by roasting.

        The Pole shift/reversal may or may not be an overnight thing. I believe the process is occuring now with the changes that are being observed, measured, and reported by the experts in the field.  I suggest that you check with NASA, Livermore Labs, or the University of Arizona, among others, who are studying the changes to our magnetic field, as well as the changes in mass and gravity that are occuring now. When, where is the tipping point? I don’t know, but I believe that the changes that have occurred in the earth by plate tectonics over the ages is a process that is still occuring, except that now humans are on the scene to observe, record, investigate and publish. It will only come as a surprise to them whose only thought is about what they are having for dinner tonight. or what club they will be going to on Friday night.

        When I connect the dots, scientifically, spiritually, politically, and prophetically, I see the same phenomena interpreted through different lenses; described by those from their particular point of view, whether they call it the “Last Days”, global warming, pole shift, earth changes, or Revelation.

        I believe that a Mad Max scenario will occur because I understand the psychology of those who live in the city, oh so well. I believe it and I have prepared for it. Think outside the box or be destined to live within it.

      43. @Durango Kidd
        A man who takes NT prophecy worries not his life here. He lives by the key precepts of Jesus Christ — above all, love God; love your neighbor (Matthew 22:36-37, Luke 10-27; Luke 6:27-6:31, Luke 6:35-38) . Adherence to both, in short, fulfill the whole of the law. Of course, such a man accepts Jesus Christ as his savior and believes on his name (John 1:12 , John 3:15 – 3:18, John 3:36, John 5:24, John 6:40, John 6:47, John 11:25-26).
        Last Days or Revelation, such time means little to the man who believes on Jesus Christ.
        Unless a natural disaster were to happen on an earth wide scale, it’s hard to see how a Mad Max scenario could arise.
        Under an economic calamity, an understanding of human nature reveals that men and women shall agitate for welfare long before collapse can happen.
        They would look among themselves first and accept the best sounding offer. Short of that, they would look to foreigners.
        History shows how mankind reacts. Starving peasants of Russia looked to Lenin. Those in China looked to Mao. Hyperinflation oppressed in Germany looked to Hitler.

      44. Sporting Dude: I don’t disagree with your philosophy at all. I just don’t think the masses will follow it when the shtf and they are hungry, thirsty, and cold or hot. When they are starving they are not going to be thinking about anyone but themselves. It may be difficult for you to imagine a Mad Max scenario. Its not for me with my life experience.  Its just an extension of every day events magnified a million times by the intensity and tribulation of the time (shtf).

        Last night in Phoenix a 19 year old kid was shot outside his family home after two guys drove up and asked him for money at gunpoint. He gave them what he had. They shot him anyway.

        Nor do I disagree, that with the time to protest, demand, or beg, the masses will agitate their government for all their needs. That is, after all, how Obama got elected. And I believe that in those days (shtf) that the masses will “petition” their government for food, shelter, and services, but like Katrina before hand, none will be forthcoming. And that is when it will get really ugly.

        The true shtf scenario I forsee is compatible with the Last Days scenario of Revelation and past the time of financial meltdown, increased taxes, and financial austerity. We have had those experiences before. What is coming according to Revelation is altogether different and more ferocious than has ever been experienced by humans on this planet. I think it begins with a Pole shift, (which is supported by scientific evidence), followed by massive changes in the allocation of land and water upon the earth, re-alignment of political alliances, and disruption of the food chain. Just my opinion.

        As someone who is quick to quote the Bible, you should understand the implications of Revelation upon the every day life of human beings. Insanity will reign.

      45. @Durango Kidd.
        I encourage all to read the New Testament only to decide for themselves what they want to believe — whether to believe in God or not, to believe in Christ or not.
        That said, no Pope, no minister, no preacher, no monk — none of these is going to get a man to God. A man can get to God only through Jesus Christ.
        However, I would not say of myself that I am quick to quote the Bible, although I have provided reference to a few NT passages, mostly because you mentioned End Times and Revelation.
        I can foresee a Mad Max scenario, but only if natural disaster happens on a global scale or near-global scale.
        It is hard to see how a Mad Max scenario could arise if all we’re talking about is a change in man-made laws and rule, even if those changes result in a government closer to the once existing Soviet Union or old-school Communist China.

      46. Guys…….  I too lived the first 20 years on my life in Chicago.  Wheaton to be exact.   I watched my pop take the stupid train to downtown to work for a lot of years.    I believe he hated it but did what he had to do.  When I graduated in 72 I split and moved to Northern Michigan.   That was a long dang time ago.   The only time I lived in the wilderness was for 30 days when I took a NOLS course in the Wind Rivers in the winter.     Big fun at first but after freezing my butt off for a week it became a real drag.   I had all the latest equipment too.   I got really tired of freeze dried meals but still looked forward to them.      If I was forced into it I could probably survive for awhile in the forests but sure as hell wouldn’t look forward to it.    I can hunt and fish all day long with the best of them but still only if I’m forced into leaving my home will it happen.   Can I be overrun by the zombies that will come north?  Most likely but the way I see it is I have the best luck in staying put, right here in my home.   I have an advantage here, at least for some time.   If I need to split then I can and will.   I can’t see leaving the country.   Too much family and I never did like to travel much.   I feel safest right here.      
        I try and live the way the Lord would want me too.  I’ve worked hard all my life as a carpenter/builder.  It has not been the easiest the last couple years.  I’ve managed to stay busy but who knows what will happen and in how long.   Maybe we’re all full of shit.  I don’t think so though.   Too much strange stuff going on.    This is a great site and I appreciate all the comments, all the time.   Some times they stray into some weird areas but I still like coming here.  You guys are all great and I know that because we are all here, we all think the same way.  That’s whats fun about this site.   Keep up the great work Mac.  Thanks for letting us rant and rave and voice our concerns.  Now, lets all go have a cold beer.

      47. The truth is that no one really knows how the U.S economy is gonna play out. Good ultimately prevails.
        The U.S. is in REAL TROUBLE and we the day of reckoning is coming, the only unknown is the severity. We the people can take back this country

      48. Sporting Dude: I didn’t think that all we were talking about here was man made rules and laws. I thought we were talking about the real possibility of a Pole Shift based on real, measured phenomena.

        If you don’t have a Mad Max scenario, you don’t have shit hitting the fan; in my opinion. You just have more of the same that we have already, and what some people are already experiencing. In a real shtf crisis people get desperate.  Desperate people act irrationally. But they act in their self interest.

        Granted we are now talking about levels of intensity, but until emergency demands overwhelm local, state, and federal government resources, including those of  NGO’s which are limited by donation, the level of desperation is contained and society is somewhat stable.

        When demand exceeds the governments ability to provide, survival will be rationed, and only preppers will survive. 

        Bill, is it true that there is this GIANT mushroom under the State of Michigan?   And is that why you moved there?   🙂

      49. durango kidd = zukadu=nutjob

      50. Giant fungus in Crystal Falls, Michigan in the upper peninsula.   Never  been there but they have a festival every year.      We find giant puff balls around here in the fall.   I hear they are tasty but more fun to blast with the 12 ga.   I’ve found them larger than basketballs.    I mostly moved here because I wanted to get away from the city and the fewer the people the better.   Love it here.   To bad Michigan in general is a f#@ked up state.   Our gov is a real bonehead.  Just like most I guess.    It’s changed a lot in the years I’ve been here.   Could have bought a hundred feet on Lake Michigan for $10,000.00 thirty years ago.  Now the same piece of property would be over a million.  Might as well have been that thirty years ago.  I couldn’t have bought  it if it was a thousand.

      51. Yeah Jarhead. I liked the handle so I thought I would use it for the summer while I’m here. Just one of my many personalities, you know?

      52. You can NEVER have too many personalities.  I believe that every personality should have it’s own gun too.   🙂

      53. bill-tell us more about yourself, like we give a shit

      54. jaream: There is no reason to attack people personally. If you can’t play nice, play somewhere else! Or stick around and try making a contribution.

      55. @Durango Kidd
        If you are a follower of Jesus Christ, then an End Times/Revelation/SHTF Mad Max scenario should not bug you since that means 1,000 years of forthcoming peace.
        However, many of the SHTF Mad Max scenario people online do not believe in God or Jesus Christ.  To them, they believe in total economic collapse and chaos.
        That is not going to happen, ever. All of the build-a-bomb shelter types are wasting their time and money. Many suffer from mind disorder and mental illness.
        Long before a man-made collapse, a socialist dictatorship or foreign rulers would arise.
        Hucksters prey on the paranoid, those suffering from mind disorders and the mentally ill, offering them up ready-to-eat meals, seeds and a host of other bogus survival stuff.
        The smarter man or woman wastes not one dollar on such foolery. Instead, the smarter man or woman converts his or her money into foreign assets and has a plan for departure.

      56. @ Sporting Dude;  there have been plenty of man-made collapses in the past.  The end of the (two) Roman Empires comes to mind.

        Also, belief in jesus is not a pre-requisite to survival in a catastrophic situation.  And, I use the term “community group” only in it’s geographic sense.  No one around here is going for meetings at the:  church, youth group, eagles hall, chamber of commerce, or any other purveyor of wild-eyed phony-ness.  The closest thing to a “community organizer” around here is the bartender down at Pete’s roadhouse…..:)

      57. Sporting Dude: I have a close personal relationship with Christ, and I will rejoice at His coming and an end to the madness in the world that we call civilization, but I am not waiting at the bus stop for Him either.

        He is coming when He gets here. I expect Chaos to reign and get worse year by year until He does.  I just don’t have to put myself in the middle of it while I am waiting.  And since I have planned and prepared for a successful retirement away from the maddening crowds, I don’t expect these changes to impact me much. I will miss the internet though since there is a lot of good info on it. I would recommend “The Most Important Video You’ll Ever See” on youtube to everyone. Its an eight part program but its so insightful. Check it out folks!

        I got mine Sporting Dude. Get yours.

      58. If you want to learn about God, you need to look into the 248 Lie group……the mathematical explanation of everything.

        I’ll admit, I’m not exactly “receptive” to religious ideology, in fact, I’m in the “hostile” camp most of the time.  However, they are now talking about mathematical evidence of God.

        I firmly believe that jesus is a fake.  Most all of his followers are even worse.  Furthermore, I do not believe in the bible.  However, these three  things do not rule out the possibility of God.

        None of this changes the facts presented in Mac’s article.

      59. @Durango Kidd
        Yes, I am like you. I know Jesus Christ. He’s my dude, my savior, my über buddy, the Son of God and the Son of Man.
        Those who deny him, don’t know him. That’s how it works. No biggie. No one can be forced to believe and thus experience Jesus Christ.
        Religion means to bind the mind. Religion exists wherever you have cults. There’s a Religion of Major League Baseball, a Religion of Academia, a Religion of the Roman Catholic Church.
        Me, I loathe all religions. I avoid all cults. I see society as nothing but one fractal cult layered upon another. Persons are members of dozens to hundreds of cults and they don’t realize it.
        All churches are nothing but cults. No follower of Christ would belong to one. He attacked all churches of his day for their bogus ways, which all churches of today suffer.
        Atheism is a mind disorder, a mental illness. The atheist spends his or her time hating God, from the time he or she is awake until he or she is asleep. It’s connected to the addiction circuitry of the brain, the same as other OCD illnesses like homosexism.
        Absence of experience, the correct and healthy mind adopts agnosticism  and says “I don’t know.”

      60. Comments…..Johnny v, if you understood the Math you would believe in God, in the world there is only one language find it and you will find unity. The Bible wasn’t revealed in english, understanding the original configuration or the language it was revealed in would be a good start.

        Sorting Dude, the way you believe in Jesus is also  cult form,  the trinity concept was established over 300 years after Christ revealed the Bible to humanity. Check out the Nicene creed.

      61. The bible was written in Aramaic (among other languages), not mathematics.  In fact, it wasn’t even a completed book until hundreds of years after the death of christ, and parts written by some members of his disciples were thrown out by the church.  I personally don’t believe that the bible is anything other than the efforts of primitive people to make themselves feel better about living a short, brutal, life.  In the early years of christianity (the Dark Ages), the bible was used to establish power of one group over another, and also used to justify torture and slaughter of anyone the group in power didn’t like.  Most all of the current problems in the world today can be correctly blamed on people “following” the bible, torah, koran (take your pick).

        As to whether god exists, that is a possibility that needs evidence from sources OTHER than the bible.  To me, the bible represents an incredibly flawed source and is notable only for a few (less than 10) times where a name or location from the bible has turned out to actually exist.  OK, maybe more than 10, but we’re still not up to Wikipedia standards here.

        Personally, I think that the “angels” and “demons” described by primitive people of the time were probably aliens.  Think about it, if you showed up in a primitive society with a book of matches, or a can of Spam, you would be viewed as a god.  It happened in the South Pacific during WWII.  There are natives there building statues of airplanes and worshiping old cans of corned beef to this day.

      62. @Sam
        The Nicene Creed was conjured by men who formed a cult to settle an argument among divided members of the cult.
        You do not find Jesus Christ talking about the Nicene Creed in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John.
        You can either follow Jesus Christ and his teaching in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) or you join the Roman Catholic Church  cult and follow the Nicene Creed.
        All of the Cults (Churches, cults) that trade on the name of Jesus Christ pull the same stunt. Each cult (Church, sect) claims to have the truth and that all others are heresy.
        The Greek Orthodox say they are right and all others are wrong. The Russian Orthodox say they are right and all others are wrong. So, all of the Protestant churches claim to be right, others wrong. Evangelicals make the same claim as do Mormons, Roman Catholics and those of the Church of England.
        No Pope, no priest, no minister, no preacher, no monk, no rabbi — none of these jokers can get you to heaven or to God.

      63. Comments…..SD. Correct, for we all know everyone loves the smell of his own dung when it comes to all these different sects. But the fact you view Jesus as the son of God, that thinking is drived from the nicene creed. Prior to that Jesus was viewed as God’s prophet and messenger, born from the holly breath by his virgin mother to bring light to humanity. How come we don’t say that about Adam, he was also born from the holly breath.

        Jonny v. correct the Bible was reavealed in Armaic, now compare that to Hebrew, Arabic, and Latin and see if you can find the common denominator.

      64. Jonny V:  Those natives are not worshipping false gods. They are preppers (the cans of corn beef) trying to find a way off the island (the planes) as their economy goes to hell!

      65. @Sam.
        You suffer from false beliefs about me. Nothing in which I believe or I have written here has anything to do with the Nicene Creed.
        Take it up with Luke. He wrote that Jesus Christ referred to himself as such.
        Many good literal translation exists.
        @ Jonny, @Sam.
        While most likely, Jesus Christ spoke to the masses in Aramaic, contention exists around the idea of Aramaic primacy.
        Scholars accept the view that the New Testament writers wrote in both refined Greek and Koine Greek, not Aramaic.
        @Sam.  You come across as a stumbling block.  You seem to have failed grasping the significant message of Jesus Christ.
        1) Love the Father in Heaven (God)
        2) Love your neighbor as yourself
        3) Return good for evil
        4) If you want everlasting life, accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God and believe on his name.
        How irrelevant it is in whatever language you get this message — Aramaic, Greek, English or Pig Latin.
        What good does anyone receive from your antagonistic opinions, which, when describing others, are false?
        Would you not be better served if you asked questions simply and awaited for answers?

      66. Comments…..SD, language is relevant, through the different translations meanings become twisted, I am glad to be fimiliar with the original and don’t have to depend on others for answers, for God has answered all my questions so far.

        Then again God said, “Don’t waste time with those who don’t believe. for if there was any good in them God would have guided them”.  So be good may be some light will eventually enter your heart.
        God bless and good luck.

      67. @Sam
        You amuse.  For you to suggest that I might get lucky and light could enter my heart, eventually, proves exactly, that you have yet to understand the teaching of Jesus Christ.
        Better that you stop reading blogs and pick up your New Testament.
        As for others, more than a few good literally translated word-for-word works exist.
        No man on earth need learn ancient Koine Greek or Aramaic to learn the word of God.

      68. SD, I’m not much of a blog reader, I do enjoy reading the scripture, but  I”m only interested in the teaching of Christ, but I’m not interested in what that imposter Paul ( Saul) has to say, so you keep on reading your New Testament and I will keep reading the Bible.
        It will take more than luck for light to enter your heart, it will take true faith.

      69. @DURANGO KIDD:  This is how I know that you and I are brothers in the Corps.  LOL!!!!!!!!  The arguments around the topic of religion are tiresome and boring.  I greatly appreciate that you do not wear religion on your sleeve like some around here……

        If things get too hot in the desert southwest, I would be pleased to provide covering fire for you and yours to make the trip north.  Somehow, things just wouldn’t be as much fun without you around to jab at………:)

      70. In the first gulf war i was lucky enough to kill 2 Iraqis. We were in a hummer with a 50 cal mounted on it. we awere on patrol in the base when i noticed a light flicker a long ways away so we went to check it out.there was this big drain pipe by the side of a hill,looks like it was meant to allow rainstorm water to flow betwen the hills . anyways,I saw several people and told them to come out .they wouldnt come out . We got of the hummer and circled to the left and right flank  ,while the hummer positioned itself with the headlights aimed at the  entrance to the drain pipe. We could see they were iraqi soldiers by the uniform they were wearing . We told then for 10 minutes  to come out out and they wouldnt.Got the word from the co on the com to enguage.We opened up on them in the drain pipe and dragged them out . There was 4 alltogether and i got the first 2 .We went through there clothes and realised that these guys had no food or water  and there feet were worn because they had no shoes,one of them looked to be a 16 year old kid, we dont know .They had some kind of  cheap russian made sidearms and some old rifles and only about 20 rounds of ammo .There water canteens were empty and they had no food so they were basically done. There were some smaller drain pipes a person could crawl into in the back so we fragged them to make sure .Reported back to the base and they went out the next day to take care of the bodies. This wasnt bravery thing that we rushed the enemy in the trenches  but we did our jobs and that was base security  .Funny thing is that later that evening we were all laughing and eating and haveing a good time .Life goes on !

      71. Well, you sure did your part to ensure the security of the good ole USA.  Thank god some shoeless freak ain’t gonna come get me tonight……..

      72. Comments…..You’re right fellows, religious arguments are sometimes boring, but one thing you could learn from scripture is “Due on to others as you would expect done to you”. You brag about committing murder in a illegal war. But the way I look at things the day will come where the US. economy will be destroyed, along with the environment contaminating the water and food supply, you will be running from murderers like yourself, you will run so much that you will wear out your shoes, and someone will flush you out of a pipe and have you for dinner,while laughing and joking about luckycharms for breakfast.
        That’s religion, you reap what you sow, may be this won’t happen to you, it might be your 16 year old sun.God help you, for your ignorance is appalling.

      73. I would say the drain pipe boys wanted to play army if they had weapons.    They lost!

      74. Sam, I served the country, what have you done for it ? When i signed on to the military and they shiped us out and trained us, we do what were suppose to do . I dont go running around screaming illegal war , i want out and i want to go home. It doesnt work that way Sam . In fact its people like me that you should be afraid of in case of economic collapse because we can kill with absoltely no problems or hangups if you are deemed a deadly threat to my live or my family.In one second its over with .What does religion have to do with this? Obviousley your not religious, so its safe to say that you understand us human beings as creatures that are prone to violence .Its people like you Sam that will be the first to go because only the strong will survive,your decision will force you to do what you have always done and that is to evade or flee . Its easy to get a a pair of shoes or clothes or food  Sam ,its only 1 second away !

      75. Comments…..You didn’t serve your country, instead you serveed a bunch of lying criminals. Mac has a post up on this site called policy of untruth, may be you would like to see a picture of you lying masters. When I was dodging bulltets you were still a twinkle in your Daddys eye, the difference between you and me I have nothing to be guilty about , if somebody puts a bulltet in my head so be it, facing the creator is no problem. But you say you have no problem killing, we’ll see how well you do when you’re facing an equally armed and trained American like yourself, intead of ill trained mulnutrioned Iraqis.

      76. Durango Kidd,

        You sound so intelligent untill you start talkin “Revelation”. Are you living in the “Dark Ages”? Pull it Together Man. Be Strong!

      77. No one “serves” when they become a member of the U.S. military. Saying so is rhetoric.
        The military is voluntary. Persons enter into work contracts for money.  No one is serving.
        Sadly, many are indoctrinated and fall for the heroic and patriotic rhetoric of “serving”.
        This kind of rhetoric works well for the Military-Industrial Complex and politicians who launch military adventures on behalf of elite interest.
        The U.S. military amounts to nothing more than a mercenary force deployed at the command of the President on behalf of lobbyists and behind-the-scenes elites who seek specific objectives.
        U.S. politicians have not involved Americans in a legitimate war since the War of 1812. Everyone knows that FDR provoked the Japanese into WW2.
        The U.S. military does not keep Americans free.  Only those persons who stand up against the tyranny of U.S. politicians and bureaucrats keep us free. We know those who keep us free by their names — subversives, protesters, scofflaws. Those who sue the U.S. government and states’ governments and win are those who keep us free.
        Hardly, we are truly free. Vice laws, surveillance laws and compliance laws against our own properties tread upon the Freedom (the virtual realm where a man is self-sovereign) upon each of us.
        If you think you are free, read about Kelo vs the City of New London. Read the Patriot Act.

      78. Roots: Revelation is the religious interpretation of coming events: politically, economically, and physically with earth changes that are occuring and that I expect will accelerate.

        For example, Scientists have discovered this summer, that the Greenland Ice Cap is melting at an INCREASING rate, not a steady rate. For a true understanding of what that means, go to youtube and search for the video: The Most Important Video That You Will Ever See. Its eight parts but the time spent is well worth the education.

        As for religion, man is more than flesh and blood, more than brain and body. If you have never had a truly spiritual experience, if you have never experienced your conciousness separate and distinct from your body and brain, then you have missed the greatest revelation life has to offer about your true nature as a living being.

        You are a spirit first, that spirit is conciousness, with brain and body added.

        Jonny V: Ran across a book yesterday in the library describing the past 200 million years of geological history of the Seattle / Cascades Area. Mt. Olympia is only 500,000 years old for example, but built up on other ancient calderas.  Lots of interesting info. Good news and bad news. If you want the info have Mac send me your email address.

      79. Thanks DK.  I’m still sobering up from the other night, but I remember the Mt St Helens blast.  It was a colossal mushroom cloud that filled the sky looking at it from 100+ miles away.  The whole area is volcanic.  You can’t dodge every damn thing that could go wrong you know……

        E-mail sent to Mac.

      80. “They’re making more people every day, but they ain’t makin’ any more dirt.”
           — Will Rogers 

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