What If Electricity Was Only for Rich People?

by | Oct 22, 2012 | Headline News | 184 comments

Do you LOVE America?


    What if electrical power in the home was only for rich people? What about heat? What about running water?  What if that divide between the rich and the poor could be delineated by who had the ability to turn on light at the flick of a switch and who did not?

    Many people worry about an event like a solar flare that would wipe out electrical power, casting us back about 200 years.  We’d have no refrigeration, no transportation, no climate control and no lights. But in that situation, we’d all be in the same boat. No matter how wealthy you are, any unprotected electrical items would still be useless.

    What if the real threat was simply that no one could afford to pay the electric bill?  What if prices escalated to the point that it was a choice between food and electricity?  What if, home by home, the lights went out across America?

    Across the world, the prices of electricity are rising dramatically.  Customers have been warned that they will face increases.  Smart meters have been installed nearly everywhere.  Many places are instituting time-of-day pricing, making it only affordable to do your laundry in the middle of the night.  The UK has announced that people can expect rolling blackouts beginning sometime next year and their power costs have risen 31% since 2010.

    Part of the reason Americans will face higher prices is President Obama’s War on Coal.  (In his own words he promised to bankrupt the coal industry.)  If Obama can’t close down power producers through the front door, he does it through the back door, via the EPA.  Even though the climate change theory through CO2 emissions has been completely debunked, the EPA is still passing draconian laws to reduce our “carbon footprint” and thus raise the prices on power.   Obama has shut down 8 coal mines across 3 states, and he and his buddies at the EPA have plans to scale back production at over 200 coal-powered plants via a regulatory assault.

    The United Nations carbon taxes have forced many areas across the globe into power monopolies.  While small companies will go out of business struggling to meet the new regulations, General Electric (a large Obama contributor) has received a waiver, exempting them from meeting these new standards.

    In providing the likes of GE with a waiver, the White House is greasing the skids for a giant consolidation of the energy industry, shutting down competition and creating artificial scarcity – thereby driving up costs for the American people.

    The deliberate deindustrialization of America has nothing to do with protecting the environment. Whereas the competitiveness of America’s energy industry is being crippled by the EPA and the White House, China and Mexico are building dozens of new power plants every year which fall well short of the clean-burning technology standards adhered to in the United States.

    This is about the implementation of the UN’s Agenda 21, which operates under the guise of “sustainable development” yet is clearly part of a stealth agenda to centralize control over energy, bankrupting America in the process as part of the move towards a crony system of one world governance.

    We are facing dramatic global increases in the prices of food, water and power.  This will serve to widen the divide between the rich and the poor and effectively end the middle class.

    In Jackson County, Alabama, for example, the price of water bills has quadrupled, making an average monthly water bill over $300.  Lizzie Bennett writes that many residents no longer have running water in their homes because of these exorbitant bills.

    “Many people have opted to buy drums of water from petrol stations rather than pay their ever increasing bills. They use these drums of water for drinking, washing and in their portable toilets which can be seen dotting back yards across the area, the modern version of the outhouse. They pay a fee to a sanitation company to remove the waste. It’s cheaper than letting the city take care of it.”

    A popular culture comparison would be with the movie, The Hunger Games.  In the movie, citizens of the Districts were relegated to cooking over open fires and lighting their rooms with candles.  No one had transportation or power.  They were not allowed to hunt to supplement their meager food allotments and in the heroine’s District, they were not allowed to use the coal the area was rich with.  Uniformed “peacekeepers” patrolled the districts to ensure that the rules were strictly adhered to and that the excruciating poverty was the standard for all residents.

    However, when the main characters went to the Capitol, a mere train ride away, it was another world, with advanced technology, power at the touch of a button and enough food at each meal to feed a family for a week. The Capitol glowed with industry, cleanliness and light and the difference of living standards was like the difference between night and day.

    The increased prices of modern day necessities can be used as leverage for many types of governmental control.  Consider Agenda 21, right from the website of the UN Department for Sustainable Development.

    Agenda 21 is a comprehensive plan of action to be taken globally, nationally and locally by organizations of the United Nations System, Governments, and Major Groups in every area in which human impacts on the environment.

    To make sure that’s totally clear:  A plan of action.  Got it.  To be taken globally…okay – everyone must participate.  In every area in which human impacts on the environment….yep, that covers everyone and everything in the entire world.  It’s a way to take over the world that sounds so warm and fuzzy that people will pay money to get in on it!

    So in true Agenda 21 fashion, wiping out power to outlying regions rich with their own natural resources will be a great way to corral the hungry cold masses into the megacities that have been designed for us. According to alternative journalist Susanne Posel, “Humans are now being compared to invasive species that commandeer territory, disburse indigenous wildlife and destroy the planet in the process…The move out of rural areas and densification of urbanized centers is being pushed in the American mainstream media as the answer to the devastating effects of humans on the environment. The elimination of suburban areas as compact cities become inundated with more people, there is a need to reinvent these centers to accommodate these swelling numbers.”

    Not only will the loss of affordable utilities help round people up geographically, it will perpetuate a massive die-off as people living in homes that were not designed to function without electrical power succumb to many different fates.  People will freeze to death in their homes in the winter, burn to death or die of carbon monoxide poisoning as they try to keep warm in homes not designed with proper chimneys and ventilation, perish of food poisoning as they consume items that have been left unrefrigerated, die from being unable to keep life-saving medications at the proper temperature to prevent spoilage or contract diseases like typhus from improper sanitation when water no longer flows from the taps.

    So, what can we do to maintain our independence as the powers that be try to return us to serfdom through limiting our access to affordable necessities?

    First you must learn to provide for many of your necessities alone.  Grow food, join a co-op, raise chickens and rabbits.  Even a small salad garden in a kitchen window can help you to offset high food prices.

    Second, reduce your dependence on the power grid.  Use rain barrels to collect water, direct the gray water from your washing machines to reservoirs, hang your clothes to dry, and use solar lighting whenever possible.

    Find other ways to stay warm.  This can be difficult if you rent but it can still be done.  Consider making modifications to allow for the use of portable wood heaters, look into different types of camping heaters and make your plans and purchase your supplies well before you need them.  Learn how to safely store fuel for these secondary devices. Invest in battery operated C02 monitors (and extra batteries). Get sleeping bags with a warmth rating for low temperatures, consider a small tent where you and family members can sleep in your living room to pool body heat, and stock up on cold weather clothing like hats, fingerless gloves, long underwear and heavy sweaters. Find ways to insulate and separate one main living area off from the rest of the house by closing doors, hanging curtains in doorways, etc.

    Watch the prices of your utilities.  As the prices begin to rise, more and more people will be unable to pay their bills and eventually their power will be shut off.  Check your bill each month and as prices increase, use less power. Redefine necessities.  You can hand wash your clothing, cook on a woodstove or outdoor grill and can foods to preserve them instead of relying on a large chest freezer. None of these are the way things are commonly done these days, but if you can manage to keep power on for the most basic necessities, like running the pump for your well, running a refrigerator, and maybe powering up a laptop, you’ll be living in luxury in comparison to the neighbors who now have no power, no heat and no running water.

    Prep, prep and then prep some more.  The end of the American way of life is upon us.  Stock up on beans, bullets and bandaids. If you’re new to the idea of prepping, check out some sites like Ready Nutrition (especially the 52 Weeks to Preparedness Series), Survival BlogThe Survival Mom, and SHTFplan. The clock is ticking.

    Instead of a huge, life-changing calamity, consider that it may be the culmination of many small events, rising prices and lower incomes, and the deliberate erosion of our self-sufficiency by those who would control us that cause TEOTWAWKI. (The End Of The World As We Know It)

    Delivered by The Daily Sheeple

    Contributed by Kimberly Paxton of www.TheDailySheeple.com.

    Kimberly Paxton, a staff writer for the Daily Sheeple, is based out of upstate New York.

    This content may be freely reproduced in full or in part in digital form provided full attribution is given to the author and a link to www.TheDailySheeple.com is included.


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      1. Keeping my family warm in the winter is my biggest challenge.

        • Truth be told I probably spend more heating with wood than I would heating with electricity but nobody can come to my house and cut off my wood supply.
          It sits in the back yard, free from price increases and blackouts.
          Its better than money in the bank.

          • I just got back from a four day tent camping trip with the family, and spent much of that time thinking about heat and wood…for two of the days, there was a slow drizzly rain, and the temps ranged from 38 degrees at night to 50s during the day. Everyone was bundled up, so we were plenty warm, but it was definitely a challenge keeping the fire going and keeping the wood dry. we were lucky that we can bring our own wood into the state parks again, as the wood sold at the camp store is thoroughly miserable, poorly seasoned, and five bucks for maybe 8 pieces of wood that proceeds to smoke and not burn. Still, there was only so much good wood we could bring, with all the other camping gear.

            Also, for the first time ever, we wussed out and used a space heater in the tent at night, to keep the two very young children warm. Well, yeah, and me. Our sleeping bags are rated to 20 degrees, but I am not entirely sure what that really means, because last year the weather got down to freezing during our camping trip, and even with layers and long johns and hats and mittens, we have never been so cold in our lives.

            • mamabear,
              Believe it or not, if you bundle up in your bag in the cold, you will end up being colder. If you allow your body heat to heat up the inside of the bag, you will be warmer. (I have slept outside many nights in the Army in very cold weather)Next time yall go try skivies and a cold weather sleeping bag. Put your clothes in the bag and dress in the bag as much as possible the next morning.

            • Great article! It made me think alot about this subject.

              Increased prices for electricity and utilities and a colder than normal winter would really affect a lot of people. There are many on fixed incomes (the elderly) and many others trying to “make it” on reduced incomes.

            • Bulldogs reply is spot on…It is very difficult to shed your clothes when you are cold to gain the benefits of a good sleeping bag. A hat is a good thing to keep on.

              With what may be coming, it will be difficult to “shed” what bs knowledge that has been programmed over the years.

              “free your mind…and your ass will follow.”

              God bless us all.

            • Although I am sure you have one, is worth emphasizing the absolute importance of having a well insulated sleeping mattress/ground mat. NOT simply an air mattress. The temptation is there because it feels softer and is easier to collapse down in a pack.
              If you use an air mattress, the cold will well right up from the ground and you will freeze.

            • @Bulldog:

              Agreed but with one caveat: Put the next day’s under/normal clothing at the foot of the sleeping bag. Put the new clothes on come morning before you get out of the bag.

              I usually had a habit of using the clothes as an ‘inner liner’ and pushed them up against the zipper in sleeping bags that weren’t as well-made for cold weather.

          • Oh dear Ausprepper my dear friend I feel for you. In my dear CA if you ” burn ” for heat in a fire place of any kind the smoke detector police will give you a ticket for polluting the air. You ” might ” get away with burning after dark, but here they’ve literarily given the codes to the unoccupied police officers so they can stop at your front door a d write you a gross polutter ticket.

            I’m glad I sold a business a few years ago and to avoid capital gains I bought an expensive solar system and got a big write off. My electric bill doesn’t include heat ( gas ) but at least I can produce some juice for 22 more years.

            • Wow Jim , that sucks . I heat almost entirely with wood here in Alaska . a lot of beach wood and scrap from construction . Free wood heat makes me grin . I think one forest fire makes more smoke than all your wood stoves could posabley make . Govenment regs make me want to scream . They never make sence . just power trip,n

          • Is it possible to burn bamboo?

            I’ve thought on this one. The energy density is lower but it grows fast. Real fast.

            • Yes, it is. Burns pretty well if it’s dry enough.

              Wouldn’t rely on it for coals or fire longevity, though.

          • Piece of cake. All they have to do is implement a fireplace burning ban. They actually send people out looking for smoke/smell from a chimney and fine the crap out of you. This has already happened in Oregon, Washington and California. It has not been possible to get a wood burning firplace in a new construction home in calif. for many years. The next step will be a firewood possession inspection where they come by and confiscate it. If Obama is re elected I expect the regulations to explode with many areas of the Mid West and Appalachia being virtually dark within two years as he shuts down all the coal fired power plants. I hope the Obama lovers get to enjoy the results. he will be playing golf or taking AF 1 on vacation.

            • What about a rocket stove? They give off very, very little smoke – mostly steam.

          • I heat my 2700 sq ft home with coal last winter three tons 900.00 and I live in New England great heat nice and warm and not a lot of work.

        • The origine of cites in most places of the country was to provide inexpencive utilities and make roads available for everyone. The cites used to be the Utility Companies. But slowly they have divested themselves of the power generation, water works and sewer systems. Selling them one by one to private companies . This has let to a large increase in the rates everyone pays in the cities because the cities still charge their profit margin on top of the price they pay from the utility companies

        • Great article …..off topic a couple of weeks back some one had motioned buying a mosin negant for. 99.00 and mentioned a web site the site was great could you please give me that site again thanks!

          • I have a Mosin that I got from a pawn shop a while back. It is great. Love shooting it. Just be prepared to spend several hours cleaning the cosmoline off of it. Since all the ammo is Russian surplus bying it by the box is relatively cheap. I would not suggest buying one off the internet as you will have to pay a broker fee and S and H. You shoudl be able to find one at a local pawn store if you live in any sort of a populated area. But again make sure you clean all the cosmoline off, this is a long process. YOu can you tube how to do it.

            • Even Big 5 sells them here in CA. I’m not as fond of the Mosin as I am the AR15. For the same price or even less then a Mosin you can buy a lower receiver for the AR15. That receiver is the key component. All other parts can be mail ordered and shipped right to your front door no hassles ( for now ). I bought a 5 pack of lowers complete with the trigger parts kits and rear stocks for $600 including California’s excessive fees and sales tax….much lower for many other states. I’ve seen individual lowers no parts kit or stock for $49.99 on rare occasion. To be honest I think they’ll be worth more than a few ounces of silver after SHTF.

            • When I was a kid you could buy a factory new never used M1 Garand for 9.95, that’s right nine dollars and ninety five cents. Recently South Korea tried to return a few hundred thousan new M1 and M2 guns that had been never used and sell them here. the Obama administration shot them down. Anyique collector firearms which then were probably destroyed or sold to one of the terrorist groups.

        • “If you control the oil you control the country; if you control food, you control the population.”
          -Henry Kissinger, Former U.S. Secretary of State

          (They would like to do BOTH.)

          The goals of Agenda 21 are being enforced through the ‘strong arm’ of the EPA.

          Sixty five coal fired power plants have already been shut down in the US and more are slated to shut down in the near future.

          “Under my plan of a cap-and-trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket.”
          – Barack Obama

          We can expect sky high electric bills. Obama said he would bankrupt any new coal fired plants wanting to come online.

          “The billions of dollars in compliance costs that the Environmental Protection Agency is mandating for coal-fired electrical plants will be that straw for many businesses, as those costs get passed on. Dozens of power plants, however, are simply shutting down; the costs of compliance are simply too high. So, another pain we may soon experience is an increase in rolling brownouts and blackouts.”

          “EPA’s action will effectively ban the construction of new coal-fired power plants,” says Dr. Bonner Cohen, senior policy analyst with the Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow. He explains why that is:

          “Under the rule, no new power plant will be allowed to emit more than 1,000 pounds of carbon dioxide per megawatt of electricity produced. On average, U.S. coal plants emit 1,768 pounds of CO2 per megawatt of electricity.

          The rule requires future plants to use as yet non-existent carbon capture and control technologies to cut their emissions to the new standard.

          With no technology available to bring down CO2 emissions to the new standard, EPA, in the name of combating climate change, is effectively telling the coal industry, which produces 55 percent of our nation’s electricity, that its days are numbered.”


          • But K-Mom…Barack says that there are more coal plants now then ever before….so it must be so….

            No matter who gets into office the price of electricty will continue to increase. Either by the strangulation tactics of the currect administration or the tactics Romney uses trying to fix the problems…either way, electricity will be for the wealthy. They will continue to feed the beast. All the rest of us will go primative and do things the way of our ansestors

            • We have been blessed with abundant natural resources (coal, oil, natural gas) in this country. Yet, this administration has blocked many the right to access them.

              Under the current administration, the EPA has refused new permits to mine coal and even CANCELLED PREVIOSLY GRANTED PERMITS.

              Obama BLOCKED the Keystone pipeline from Canada.
              Obama shut down drilling for oil in the gulf states for months.

              Yet, Obama authorized our TAX DOLLARS TO SUBSIZIDE DRILLING FOR OIL IN BRAZIL – which is already under contract to the Chinese.

              “Even though President Obama is against off shore drilling for our country, he signed an executive order to loan 2 Billion of our taxpayers dollars to Petrobas, a Brazilian Oil Exploration Company (which is the 8th largest company in the entire world) to drill for oil off the coast of Brazil!

              The oil that comes from this operation is for the sole purpose and use of China and NOT THE USA ! Now here’s the real clincher…the Chinese government is under contract to purchase all the oil that this oil field will produce, which is hundreds of millions of barrels of oil”…


              The future of coal is a very important issue here in KY. There are an estimated 2,000 mining layoffs this year in Eastern Kentucky.


          • There is absolutely nothing to prevent either the EPA via regulation or Obama via EO to decree that farming had been determined to be an environmental hazard and would be banned. Think it can’t happen?

            • John, with this administration anything could happen. Nothing suprizes me anymore.

              Our forefathers are rolling in their graves.

        • Electricity and fire are not the only way to stay warm. There are too many people in this world who forget about how important insulation is. Do you see polar bears building fire to stay warm?They have enough hair and fat that they don’t require external heat sources.

          I have spent multiple days climbing a mountain in temperatures well below zero where there is no electricity for heat and no wood to burn. Good clothing layers keep my partner and I warm while on the move and light compressable sleeping bags that get stuffed into our packs keep us warm while sleeping.

          Perfecting this skill takes practice. Start with a day hike in the winter and listen to your body. Adjust your layers as you exert more/less energy. Wearing a parka while carrying a 50lbs pack trudging through 3 feet of snow will make you sweat out your layers and die of hypothermia. You may find yourself hiking without a shirt in below freezing temperatures just to regulate your body appropriately. Once you master day hikes you can step it up to overnighters and then multiday trips.

          • “Do you see polar bears building fire to stay warm? They have enough hair and fat that they don’t require external heat sources.”

            Well by golly, that’s it!

            I’ll just rub a lot of Rogaine all over myself daily and eat one hell of a bunch of pasta and butter.

            Why didn’t I think of that before?

            • I am guessing that you were unable to comprehend the simile I used? I attempted to compare a polar bear’s fat and fur layers to the clothing which I recommend you purchase, such as an 850 fill down parka and rain jacket.

            • I am guessing that you were unable to comprehend the sarcasm I used?

            • Ohh, haha. I am guessing that both you and JohnW were being sarcastic? Either way, I am happy as long as everyone has a bomber clothing system and knows how to use it.

            • BraneFrees: Might want to change that to BrainFreeze. Refreshing takes the long way around to it but he’s talking insulation for your body as well as your home. You know; the attic, the wall,double-pane windows and such. Of course if you’re like most Americans today, you already have a good fat layer going and can’t take it if the temp. is above 78 or below 72 because you’re so out of shape. Everyone’s going to have to toughen up a bit because utility costs are going up and we’ll need to use a little less. I can already hear the flabby babies crying now: It’s my right as an American-I wan’t my heater, I want my a/c, waaaaaa!

            • Gregory8 says: “BraneFrees: Might want to change that to BrainFreeze.”

              You think?

              Gosh, why didn’t I think of that?

              Gregory8 says: “Refreshing takes the long way around to it but he’s talking insulation for your body as well as your home. You know; the attic, the wall,double-pane windows and such.”

              Darn, got me again.

              Uh…. see my second posting in the thread.

            • BrainFrees: Missed that one, it looks like I’m the one with the brain fart, sorry pal!

          • One of the sillier posts ever. hard to believe that you think that is a viable solution.

            • Am I missing something? I am truly curious why some of you think this is a bad idea? It can’t really be disproven seeing that many people use this simple concept to keep warm. Examples? Dude who hiked 450 miles across the artic for 50 days, no electricity or wood there. Or how about the thousands of alpine climbers that summit mountains all over the world, usually no electricity or wood on those adventures either. 

              I want to help my fellow preppers so just give it a try! Think about a situation where you can’t start a fire for fear of being found or fear of CO poisoning. Would you rather spend the night shivering your butt off or sleep comfortably in your sleeping bag that requires nothing more than crawling into it to stay warm.

        • Engage your employees my peeps or be enslaved by them. It’s OUR Choice.

        • 300MM humans burning wood will deplete forests quite quickly.

      2. I’ll be the first to turn my lights off

        • Electricity IS only for rich people. I’ve been to third-world countries where the average income is $4,000 a year. By the worlds standards those of us living off the government are still rich. The good news is that while those without electricity had very little, they seemed no less happy than their neighbors who did. The myth that more money means more happiness is not believed everywhere.

      3. This reminds me about a book about Nikola Tesla that I read about how he wanted to supply all homes with cheaper AC power, alternating current, and Jp Morgan and Edison that wanted the more expensive DC power, direct current. What I read was the Edison and others electrocuted animals, especially dogs to try to prove how dangerous AC power was, that was considerably cheaper. One reason why I think of Edison as scum. Tesla wanted what was the best for all mankind and ended up dying an old man saying that his pet pigeons were his only friends. Reminds me of what is said in this article about power ONLY for the privileged and screw everyone else.

        Got news for the elite though, power, food, water, everyday necessities can be gone within an instance. Those elistists can ONLY store so much up, if they even have the insight to do so. Eventually everyone is going to be pretty well on equal terms. i wonder whom will ultimately survive, those that have lived soft pampered lives of a rich life style, or those that have self sacrificed throughout their lives for themselves and their family and friends.

        • Actually, AC is what we have in our homes now, DC is battery power. Tesla wanted to give the world unlimited FREE power—and TPTB wasn’t having any of that…

          • the jesuit order doesnt take kindly to ANY admission that magnetic power even exists. the coverup on this one has been very aggressive.

          • We could have 1 great economy if power was not constrained. If people had free power, there would be an unbelievable amount of entrepreneurship.

            But, the TPTB don’t want compettition or everyone to be free to be enterprising. TPTB are fake capitalists.

          • Tesla wanted to use DC. Read a little about why that won’t work and get back to us.

        • Tesla was the man. Basically the deal between him and Edison was this….Edison discovered DC. But the problem with DC is transmitting it from point A to point B is difficult and costly. You would need a “recharging station” every mile or so. Edison was deep into negoiations with Inferstructue companies, local governments, ect to establish these “recharging stations everywhere. Imagine “recharging stations” inbetween every mile of power cable along the side of the road. Edison was set to gain a fortune off of the infastructure before he hired Tesla. Tesla came in an basically erased his chalk board and said “Why don’t you just do it like this?” Bingo, AC was born. AC electricity can be transmitted thousands of miles using nothing more than a cable. Edison was pissed. He lost a fortune. He very much blamed Tesla for it. He than fired Tesla and tried to black ball him from the industry. He also stole Tesla’s AC invention and patented it under his name.

          The funny thing is Tesla went on to work for Westinghouse, and JP Morgan and basically did the same thing to them and recieved the same results. Tesla was basically shit on by a whos who list of the most influential people of the early 1900’s.

          Tesla remains one of my personal heros and shoudl be credited with inventing (Just a few examples) the radio, the electric motor, the electric car (in 1907!), AC current, the modern lightbulb, and wireless electricity transfer.

          And yes, many people, including myself, believe Tesla invented a form of electricity that is free and would have sustained the world indefinitly. He did this by pulling electricty straight from the ionosphere. JP Morgan famously shut down his experiment and said “Where can I put the meter on this”

          • Also, BI you are correct, JP Morgan was also set to make a fortune off of the infastructure deals giving out loans to the hundreds upon hundreds of companies it woudl have taken to complete such a massive project. Imagine recharging stations literally everywhere!!! There would be more of them than McDonalds and gas stations COMBINED.

            I also agree that Edison was scum. Corporate elitist stool pigeon trying to get rich and not better humanity. Tesla was the true visionary. If it was not the global bankers holding his ideas back everyone on the planet would have clean free energy. But if that was the case TPTB would not have their power.

            • You guys are all fixated on free. Nothing is free. Someone has to pay the cost of installing the delivery infrastructure and maintaining it. You sound like a child waiting for Santa Clause or someone waiting for their EBT card to be re loaded.

            • Thank you john ina box, I have been trying to find this wonderful book on Tesla for months now, I hope it did not get thrown away. Very well stated about Tesla, the father of the modern world.

              @ John W. I and john ina box are not fixated on free, we are focused on fair. When someone pays for something it creates good jobs, free is never free in reality. Just because some slime can exploit others for profit does not make this right. It is amazing how the universe seems to work sometimes, those that did the exploiting and unfair practices end up being put into the same situation and they are the absolute first to call foul. Making money for the betterment of others and the society is what is called true profit, making money on the backs of slaves and the expense of others which includes the planet’s resources just plain sucks.

              Some individuals like edison don’t have a conscience or a knowing between right and wrong, and what is fair. They think only about the betterment of themselves, and it does not matter the suffering of many others, as long as they are all right. Most of these are the elitists of the world that use me, you, Mac, and practically everyone on this site as target practice for the hell of it. I would take Tesla and other fantastic minds like his any day of the week to the slimeball edison.

        • Be Informed, you seem to be wondering how the elite will continue their lavish lifestyle. Here’s how. First kill off 90% of the population including anyone who is old, on welfare, on any sort of goverment dole, the sick, anyone dependant on drugs or medical apparatus, and anyone who can think for themselves (such as readers of SHTFplan). There are many ways of accomplishing this and greatly curtailing power is a step in that direction.

          Using the recent executive order as legal justification, enslave the surviving citizens to run the powerplants, water treatment plants, food processing plants, production facilities, factories, etc., to give them their necessities. Everyone on the public dole is already dead and the workers are getting slave wages (if anything at all), leaving the riches of society for the elite to enjoy. It’s a great plan if you happen to be one of the elite.

          • @ Prepper. The way the planet is going right now, it might just be Mother Nature that unleashes something that does in 90% of the population, including the elitists. Those in extreme power positions most often depend on the manmade equation of securing the future, not what the planet and off the planet can do. You can take one of these cocky arrogant elistists that is so sure of themselves, after all they feel that they are so far above us peasants, and let them go through the awesome power of the planet and see their reaction. The prepper/survivalist will remain as calm as can be expected, the elitist that is basically soft will be a nervous wreck and shaking like a trapped cornered rabbit. The prepper/survivalist are the ones with the inner strength and true mental toughness.

      4. make your own power …

        i just picked up two new solar panels with individual volt regulators and two storage battery packs 15 volts each . cost $400. + a real emergency need = PRICELESS !!!

        this will allow me too temporarily 5 hours a day … run my laptop , infrared camera , charge my battery powered intruder motion zone alarms , emergency lighting , batteries , coleman cooler , cook , pump filtrate purify water , run my water alkalize ionizer and to create colloidal silver medicine .

        and its all transportable the size of a regular foot locker .

        i build my systems from scratch mixed and match .

        every prepper should look into this .

        if you live in a low yield solar area like canada just add more panels and batteries .

        its worth the cost .


        • baa baa

          Please provide details for us laymen..



          • For the layman – go to the website for the JASPak unit. They have tons of information on how to plan and what is in a solar generator unit. If you’re not a DIY person, you can even buy one of theirs with free shipping.

          • Five Steps to Sizing a Photovoltaic Solar System

            Photovoltaic (PV) power generation systems are made up of interconnected components, each with a specific function. One of the major strengths of PV systems is modularity. As your needs grow, individual components can be replaced or added to provide increased capacity. Following is a brief overview of a typical PV system. Solar Array

            The solar array consists of one or more PV modules which convert sunlight into electric energy. The modules are connected in series and/or parallel to provide the voltage and current levels to meet your needs. The array is usually mounted on a metal structure and tilted to face the sun. Charge Controller

            Although charge controllers can be purchased with many optional features, their main function is to maintain the batteries at the proper charge level, and to protect them from overcharging. Battery Bank

            The battery bank contains one or more deep-cycle batteries, connected in series and/or parallel depending on the voltage and current capacity needed. The batteries store the power produced by the solar array and discharge it when required. Inverter

            An inverter is required when you want to power AC devices. The inverter converts the DC power from the solar array/batteries into AC power. AC and DC Loads

            These are the appliances (such as lights or radios), and the components (such as water pumps and microwave repeaters), which consume the power generated by your PV array. Balance of System

            These components provide the interconnections and standard safety features required for any electrical power system. These include: array combiner box, properly sized cabling, fuses, switches, circuit breakers and meters.

            • Batteries will last about 3 years. Most deep-cycle batteries have a usable lifetime of around 1,000 charge/discharge cycles.
              365 days/year * 3.
              15Volt? Why?
              Batteries aren’t 15 volt.

              1 battery, rated at 245amphours, costs about $500.
              That will provide 10 amps at 12 volts 24 hours per day.
              Of course, after 1 day, it’s dead.
              So, you have to “fill” it with power from your solar array while the sun is shining; 10 hours per day of sun?
              Your array needs to generate 24 amps per hour to recharge the battery.
              Enough panels to produce 24 amps will cost several thousand dollars.
              The inverters (12vdc to 120vac) are not 100% efficient.
              And, the inverters that produce power clean enough to run computers & newer TVs are really expensive.
              A full house system for $400?

        • In the same lines – if you can’t DIY – Go look into a JASPak unit. Biggest one out there to date and all American made. It runs our entire camp each weekend!

          • Chris – Thank you. Just checked out the site and it is excellent, especially for someone who is a complete newbie when it comes to solar! Excellent resource!

        • Guys – if the solar option is your choice – go check out the JASPak unit. They have a ton of information on their site and if you are not a DIY person, you can buy one from them – they even have free shipping. It runs our entire camp every weekend even if there isn’t sun because the battery is huge. Worth checking into if you’re serious about wanting backup power without gas.

          • Sorry for the double post – didn’t see the “Awating moderation” Please delete the doubles moderator – thanks!

        • What size inverter are you using to invert the batteries DC
          to 110vac. What do you suggest for initial panel wattage?
          Would you mind posting links for where you bought your system. Thank you.

            • THANK YOU CHRIS!

              MAC – I am not advertising, but I do want to say thank you to everyone who has visited us today because of Chris’s comments. We had no idea what caused the spike until someone emailed about this article and the comments – thank you all again!

              I respect this site and Mac’s rules and won’t pitch our generator unit here – but if anyone has questions or wants to learn more about solar power in general, ask here or catch us on our site.

              Also, remember, ours, and the other units mentioned here are backups and every generator has limitations. You have to set your expectations properly and, most of all, MAKE A POWER PLAN for how you want to use your limited power available to you, regardless of the power source.

              Thanks again to Mac and everyone reading!

              • No need to pitch the generator – I think the quality in workmanship speaks for itself: http://jaspak.com/

          • i have 3 of various sizes for light medium and heavy duty work . i have a triple redundant solar system solar power generators (my truck has two aqua marine heavy duty water proof solar panels hooked to the trucks battery so its charged daily) . like anything you get what you paid for with dc inverters and solar panels .

            i bought all my gear from ebay and amazon . i only bought the best gear . as i plan to have this for the remainder of my life .

            i plan to use power tools so i bought the higher watt mods .

            GP-175 175-Watt Modified Sine Wave Inverter for cell phone / aa aaa 12v battery charging .

            Whistler Pro-1200W 1,200 Watt Power Inverter for cooking .

            Power Bright PW1500-12 Power Inverter 1500 Watt 12 Volt DC To 110 Volt AC for power tools .

            it’s worth the investment .

            • Are you useing the 1500 only for small tools or battery charging of set dewalts. I ask because a 1500 will not run heavy saw or compressor

            • @fbp … piss off DimTard ;0P pssszzt

            • @NinaO:

              the power of the sun

              the power of the gun

              let us have some fun…

              TPTB on the run …lol.

              …p.s……picked up a big berkey and four filters, for $45 late Sunday at a garage sale…stoopid sheeple..lol..

              …be safe…stay the course…where’s Burt?…BA.

            • 1200 watts for cooking?
              toaster? nope
              coffee maker? nope
              microwave? nope
              table lamp while you use a coleman stove? yeah, that’ll do it..

        • The currently designed solar panels are inefficient — if they must be used it’s best to use them for what you state (the minor electric uses). To retrofit a home with solar is financially insane, better to redesign lifestyle than try to continue on w/ solar as the replacement for standard AC electricity.

          Far better are the solar designs using biomimicry because those new designs collect more than 40% more solar energy than the flat rectangular panels most people opt for. Check it out.

          • I agree in large part with Zoltanne… the various considerations of applications are almost endless in how you build your own wind / solar system.
            I’m a DIY guy… I thoroughly enjoy ‘hands on’ – I’m also an electrician by trade – believe me, you’re better off to outfit a spare room in the home to be the ‘emergency back-up’ than to think you can build a unit big enough to keep living a ‘normal’ life style.

            Without going into a lot of detail, let me simply say I highly suggest that for those of you who have ‘electric heat’ – don’t plan on using a solar / wind power system to keep you warm – the amp draw from the heating elements alone will drain your batteries down in less than 10 to 20 minutes – tops – depending on the size of the elements vs the size of the system you’ve built vs the square space you’re trying to heat vs the coldness of the night vs the thermostat setting….. Then, you’re done for the rest of the night unless the wind is blowing hard enough for the wind generator to do its thing (if it’s even big enough) … and even then, you’d better hope you have plenty of sunlight the next day or so in order to bring your batteries back to life…. Etc. The variables go on and on…

            As the old saying goes, the sky is the limit if you have the money… we don’t.

            If you want a break down of everything I’ve done including the drawing of how it all comes together… let me know… there’s just too much to put down in a short space.

            I’m not trying to discourage anyone… I’m just letting you know there’s a lot to it and a person could easily become discouraged after sinking a lot of money into this arena and then not have it work right because of one or two ‘miss-wires’…

            • http://www.mysolarbackup.com/

              Is this a reputable one, Jerry C?? No way can we equip a solar room…anyone here can?? I doubt it.

        • I have been pestering my hubby, who happens to be an electrician (!) to get us on a solar set-up, but he won’t. He says we’d need too many batteries and they need a lot of maintenance and there is nowhere safe within the house to store them; we’d need a separate building as they are an explosive risk. Of course, I can’t argue with him as my electrical knowledge is restricted to turning on light switches and electrical appliances. I did hear of a set up that uses new technology with batteries that does not require maintenance on them and that are a lot safer but I cannot remember where I heard this. Any ideas, anyone? My electrical bills are crazy high and getting higher.

          • @Northern Cousin….agree with you on the cost of electricity…I have cut so many corners, no laundry till after 7:00 p.m-7:am, or week-ends only…..hardly anything plugged in anymore…..cooking all “oven” stuff on the “barbie” …I love the hams, turkeys and all roasts cooked outside!! Actually, they are not making as much $$ off me as they used too!

            Just wanted to let everyone know that “Revolution” is on tonight and it is based on “when the electricity goes out”…should be interesting!! If I can stay awake!! (: CC.

          • @ Northern Cousin… I understand where your husband is coming from. I work in the electrical field in a combination of commercial and industrial arenas and as the old saying goes, you can give 10 electricians the exact same job to do and they will all build the project 10 different ways – and each one will be according to code.

            ‘Code’ is all about safety – nothing else. It doesn’t care about ‘cost’ or ‘time’ or manpower. ‘Code’ applies to ‘the minimum’ required safety… code could not care less if you ‘over-build’ the project…

            Having said that, I have built my system inside my home (it’s in a stand-by state) – batteries included – because of where I live, I can’t afford having anything outside the home – it wouldn’t be there the next morning…. The batteries are not maintenance free – and unless they are receiving a ‘charge’, they’re not ‘actively’ putting out a vapor and no ventilation is required… if it were otherwise, Wal-Mart would be in ‘code’ violation.
            Building a small container with a bathroom exhaust fan attached that vents the vapor to the outside is pretty simple.

            My lighting system for the back-up plan is LED – one room only – in a worst case situation, you don’t want to be broadcasting that you have ‘lights’ when no one else does… I understand the give away are the solar panels and wind generator – nonetheless, that’s something that just can’t be helped.

            I’m not trying to step on your husbands toes… I’m sure his reasons are valid… I’ve just chosen to go ahead anyway…

            Fortunately for me and the misses, our sons are back at home and helping with the bills – free room and board helps everyone… going back to the way families lived out on the farm at the turn of the last century isn’t so bad after all…

            • Have you considered a grid-tie inverter for now? It will reduce your bills a little (depending on the panel size) and put your setup to work now instead of gathering dust. This, along with a water heater timer and careful useage, has reduced my electric bill by about a third.

          • Yes, there are sealed maintenance-free batteries. They are more expensive, but, a good alternative. Don’t forget your state rebates (if any) and the federal tax credit (1/3 cost of the system).

            • ‘Sealed, maintenance-free” only means they don’t leak and you don’t/aren’t able to add water to the cells… outgassing always occurs during the charge/discharge cycle, take any lead acid battery apart and you’ll see the venting is built into the top of the integral cell covers. They can’t operate without being able exchange gas with the atmosphere.

          • Ideas for lowering your electricity bill? Sell your TV, etc, and buy more guns. Guns don’t require any electricity.

          • @ Northern Cousin,

            Listen to your hubby as to the safety issue. Virtually all batteries latge enough to be a part of any ‘meaty’ off-grid system and not catastrophically expensive ie, exotic chemistry involved, would be of the lead-acid type. All such directly emit hydrogen gas during the charge/discharge cycle…there’s nothing more inherently flammable than that. In addition, hydrogen sulfide is emitted at times and that’s just plumb toxic…not something you’d want in a confined space with you. One of the most effective things that anyone can do – albeit with a little work – is to insulate, insulate, insulate. The modern closed-cell foam sheeting, ‘pink board’ has an R-rating of about 28 for the two inch thick variety. As a perspective, most homes in the US are constructed so that the most insulated component (the ceiling) has only about an R-36 value. If one was building fresh I’d go for 2×6 or 2×8 exterior walls and insulate like mad. The Canadians up in the vicinity of Hudson Bay have built homes with upwards of a foot of insulation embedded (R-100)and have – even in that harsh climate – nearly non-existent HVAC billing. A cautionary note: If you do go with sealing and insulating things up to an extraordinary degree bear in mind that the interior air has to turn over…you can’t build a fully sealed container, we all need to breathe afterall.

          • jayjay –

            All I will say is you get what you pay for. Please, read all of the details and learn about calculating watts, watt-hours, amp-hours and so forth. Yes, this unit has a solar panel and a battery. But, please understand what this sized battery can and cannot do.

            I will leave it at that.

            • I’m in a hurry-do not use credit cards and have just enough for the one I linked…I can’t wait 2 more months for your generator—sorry.
              Solar generator has been on my mind for a while; I just feel now is the time—‘something’ is in the air.
              It’s the lesser of the two, or none at all–
              I’m going for the lesser of the two.
              Peace..may we all be prepared for the ‘whatever’ coming.
              And thanks for your concern; that’s rare in these times, other than the members of this site.:-)

            • Oh, edit: yours was the first choice, but I’m scared; really scared and I’m from Tennessee and a country girl—we don’t scare easily!!!:-)

          • They are called AGM or glass mat is another term. You are right, safe, and great for solar collection. Now for the but…. they are twice the price of a deep cycle.

        • Agreed that solar power is good.

          Make sure you have some “parts” for repair and replacement.

          We had hail when the tornado swept through our area last March. Hail did alot of damage on roofs locally. Hail destroyed about half of our outside solar lights.

          We replaced the outside garden solar lights. In the future, if hail is forecast, we will bring in all our solar lights.

        • Make sure you have some “parts” for repair and replacement of your solar units.

          We had hail when the tornado swept through our area last March. Hail did a lot of damage to roofs locally. Hail destroyed about half of our outside solar lights.

          We replaced the outside garden solar lights. In the future, if hail is forecast, we will bring in all our solar lights.

        • Did you get them at harbor Freight? They had some good solar deals awhile back. Since tariffs have been levied on Chinese panels the prices have shot up. You got a good deal.

      5. my water bills and people around me in ohio,water bills and not 300 a month but were not to far from that and elec. shot through the roof with food and gas bills.
        everyone use to say off the wall things to people who prepare but EVERYONE knows something is not right and something is going to happen.
        lately ive had some people get alittle upset when a conversation goes into what if something bad happens and i tell them there not coming to me for help i only prepared for me and my family.
        why get upset you dont believe it–and if you are starting to wonder prepare for yourself —they wont be no welfare coming from my house only lead

      6. to quote Metallica: Battery!

      7. One big mistake in the article says that cities were designed for this Ha most american cities are busting at the seams already with breaking infrastructure. But if you live in poor outskirts of atlanta then go into the city its got to feel like that 2 very different worlds between the haves and the don’ts

      8. Depends. Is it hooked up to a chair?

      9. Coming elections will dictate just how fast the “Grid Electricity” will rise in cost. Or even remain functional.

        To disconnect from the grid all the whinny, anti-coal, anti-nuclear, anti-dam, individuals and let them learn just how difficult (dollars/time/maintenance) it is to obtain voltage & current from other forms of power (volt x current). Some may do well. Others will have less time to complain while they spend time servicing their equipment. That expresso cup after a tough day on the keyboard is a wattage hog !

        The urbanites have a very l-o-n-g supply line of electricity to their “cities of the future” with the generation being far in the countryside. We wouldn’t want the urbanites upset with seeing the actually generation of electricity now would we?

        Even Ted Kennedy did not want to see one of the “Holy Grail” of lib green energy, the wind mill, in his visual range…installations NOT ALLOWED ! Maybe all those chopped up birds landing in “green” walkways was causing too many fat free cookies to fall from tea servers.

        The solar electric units are great emergency supplements. We have several units here that supply power to low demand systems. They are mixed from various recycled components that operate LED lights, small battery charging stations, and driveway gate actuators.

        Best have propane or wood stove if the latitudes give you the cold temps most of the winter.

        Good luck to all in whatever you do. November the 7th will be most interesting.

        • BTW, IMO, absolutely NOTHING is more renewable and clean than water flowing over a dam. With a portion of such traveling the chutes & piping through turbines first !

      10. Thank God the un peacekeepers wear those visible blue helmets. These globalist pigs are starting to make Stalin look like a teddy bear.

        • One way or another, there won’t be a blue hat any where in a week if they show up. Put money on that

      11. thanks for the great read !
        solar power is great in the summer up north ,but we see too much cloud cover during the winter for it to be useful . at least i havent had much luck .

        has anybody considered wood fired hydrogen generators ?
        i read about them a while ago , seem complicated .

        • I kept it simple at our home in the city and ran gas pipe from our existing natural gas furnace which is maybe 65% efficient to a 99% vent-less space heater. It keeps the bedrooms warm at night when the thermostat is turned down at the rest of the house.

          We also do not wake up cold in the middle of the night when the power goes out because the space heater automatically takes over.

      12. If there is a gigantic EMP event, it will probably not matter if you have bullets, beans and band aids.

        I may be wrong but I do not believe that any nuclear plant in the world is prepared to survive an EMP event.

        In a matter of minutes all of these plants will have uncontrolled criticalities. They will melt into the earth or they will blowup. In either case, there will be huge amounts of radiation released. The thousands of spent fuel rods in cooling pools will take several hours to catch fire or explode. In any case, it will be like thousands of nuclear bombs going off.

        Let’s hope & pray that nothing like this ever happens in the USA.

        If you are not following what is going on in Fukushima right now, you are making a big mistake. If you live in the US, you are receiving radiation from the four disabled reactors.

        • Day 590 of the Fukushima disaster and counting…

        • Exactly my man exactly.


          We and our great grandkids will have 2 heads, 57 eyes, and a life expectancy of 15 years from time of birth. In a good scenario.

          Why. Are. We. Not. Pushing. For. THORIUM! DAMMIT!!!!

          We’re helping China build it for God’s sake!

          Arrgh this infuriates me. Sorry to sound infuriated but I am.

          In a thorium reactor you have to keep up neutron bombardment from an external source to keep the reaction going. Shut down the external source and you shut down the entire reaction.

          Contrast to plutonium / uranium where you’ve started an uncontrolled wild fire (essentially) and are attempting to contain it. Your containmet fails, the reaction keeps going. And going and going and going. Quite possibly for a time span measured in decades…

          • ~~~Why. Are. We. Not. Pushing. For. THORIUM! DAMMIT!!!~~~

            That would be against the plan of the NWO…to starve the masses and control what survives.

          • “Why. Are. We. Not. Pushing. For. THORIUM!DAMMIT!!!!” Answer: Depleted Uranium for the war on brown skinned people.

            • You’ve no idea how right you probably are.

              Rumor (note: RUMOR) I hear is that back in the day, 50’s and such, we had a choice, and we picked plutonium / uranium because the reactor byproducts could be weaponized. Once again, unlike thorium.


              Just. Guys come on here already.

              There’s so much thorium that conversion efficiency isn’t even an issue. Not that the reaction isn’t efficient but even if it wasn’t, who could care less?

              Someone (that you are actively helping) is going to beat you to it. And then, since it’s clear no one’s crazy enough to go for a full scale nuke war, it’s going to be like the 17th century cavalry versus Iraq War 1.

              What the HELL ARE YOU GUYS DOING???!

              … sigh use it to crack hydrogen from seawater… net energy sink… you lose energy in the process… but you get a portable form and once again you have enough thorium that Darth Fucking Vader’s grandkids are still gonna be using the stuff…

      13. A while back. There was a very wide gap between those that have and those that didn’t, and that was fine with those that did, then. They found out that they could be more wealthy by letting those without have more things. It has gotten to a point that those with out now have, what those with have, and this burns the rich up. What is going on is the rich are now going the other way to widen the gap back up, and quess what, the with out’s are not standing for it. Now the call for thinning the herd by those with, is their only means of wideing the gap. So rise the prices on everything, drive the mass back to where they have nothing, or let them die off it’s their game plan. I think they have waited to long to spring they intentions because of, you quessed it THEIR GREED over the years. Now they will have to deal with the mass quickely or this plan will not work. The screws will be tight’n down on us from every which way. So hold the coarse and prepare, it is going to be interesting soon. Thats just me.

        • Copperhead, I think they will push it to just a certain point. There is a law of diminishing returns and the elites make a lot of money from utilities. A lot of union pension funds are invested in them, too. The elites themselves need the technical unionized workers to be available and willing to work if the elites are going to have power and water. It is amusing to listen to the unions bash the Koch brothers when they provide union jobs and union pension investments, not to mention toilet paper!!

          I’m aware of Agenda 21, but take a look at the Democrat-run, union-dominated cities: they are depopulating and the states with the most of them have already lost representation. They overreached. I suppose they might think they can force us into them and perhaps so, but I have watched them try things like making the cities *cool* for the younger people and it only lasts for awhile, until it becomes drug and crime-ridden and the costs for policing, fire and health care get too much, along with the general cost of living. We came out here nearly 40 years ago from a large city because we just couldn’t afford to live and work there, anymore. Then, look at places like Kansas trying to lure young families w/free or very cheap land if they’ll build a $100k house (and pay taxes/support utilities).

          IOW, there is still a viable market out there and people are not easily herded. Many retirees out here have been talking lately about the time ahead when we might need a nursing home or retirement facility which we cannot afford and don’t want, anyway. The consensus is that we will hire Amish to help us out. They are trustworthy, for the most part, and always need more jobs for their youth than their own businesses and farms can provide..

          Out here in my rural area and the closest small city (50k), there has been an influx of urban welfare mothers and children. The social workers tell them life is better out here. But, those kids bring gangs and eventually more drugs and crime and the moms get bored w/small town life and not enough men their age/culture and they move out back to the big city. They clash w/the minorities already here, such as the Hmong. I think it is going to take the elites a long, long time to change the demographics in a country this large and diverse.

          So many of us out here are already somewhat off grid or capable of being so in a short time, that it is the owners and investors of the utilities/infrastructure that will suffer, first. Again, just IMO.

          Already seeing people in the $500k/year class buying farms and moving out of the exurbs. They know what is coming, as do we all and many are cashing their investments to acquire independence. Not all of them are obnoxious city folk, either. Some are actually assets to the community. The ones who aren’t won’t stay that long.

          The article cites The Hunger Games. That takes place after a nuclear exchange and it still not only takes a military force and constant surveillance and culling in the form of the Games, the PTB have to allow some upward mobility, if only to the winners of the games. That, of course, eventually bites them in the butt.

          We elders will perhaps only experience a bit of the dislocations in store. It is the younger folks who are going to have to take a stand if things are to change.

          • >>> BlueH2O

            You have more going on between the headset, than many here.

            • Thanks, Rubicon.

              Usually I hear:”Well, you are weird, even if you are usually right.”

      14. I will probaly get a bunch of thumbs down on this but you got to keep it real. If the situation arises that you need to substain yourself till a return of normal services then 90 days of prepping should give you a start in a long term situation. If you have prepped for it.

        I call bullsh*t on this article. The great majority of us (the prepper nation) have made provisions to cover our basic power and water needs. In fact when I hear or read of people who buy used candles at garage sales I have to laugh. A tent in your front room for conserving heat when you sleep? WTF?

        Candles: There is no reason why each person living in a house or even a condo with a small yard cannot have a bee hive that will provide you with wax and honey. Cost: About $75.00 Cost of self made candles: Pennies. Saving used oil/grease in coffee cans and a rag with oil in a dish. Hey you have light!

        Electricity: How many serious preppers are out there who don’t have a couple of generators with spare parts? Same for fuel? I have 30 gallons of gas stored, that I rotate and another 15 to 20 gallons in my truck and another 10 to 15 gallons in the wifes car at all times. Thats way over 50 gallons on hand at all times. Honda 2000 at a 1/2 gallon a day (4 hours) gives me electricity for least 90 days plus. Solar panel at Harbor Freight and a couple of 12 volt batteries give you at least another couple of hours per day for a lot longer.

        Water: I don’t know where you all live but if you don’t have an abundance of water in your immediate area you need to move. If not every time you finish a gallon of milk clean and fill it with water. Change it out every 90 days. Rain collectors into cheap 50 gallon drums for watering plants. There is at least 20 gallons of water in your water heater. Come on!

        Heat: If you don’t have a fireplace or proplerly vented wood stove what are you waiting for? Fuel? Wood is all around you or as I have been doing making logs out of shredded paper and leaves. It is Fall and leaves are everywhere. Paper? You know how much buisness’s throw out?

        Wake up and smell the coffee folks. Some of these articles are for the purpose of fear selling you survival supplies. Good business but beware of being running of the side of the cliff with the other sheeple.

        • BigB What!…are you saying that people tell lies to make money?…..well I never heard of such a thing!(sarc)

          If your home does not have a fireplace, nor can you have one installed, get a kerosene heater. They sell them thru Amazon and most farm supply stores.

          • I fogot about propane. 10 gallons will give you I don’t know how much cooking and heating time. Almost every BBQ has a side burner or you can get a converter to power a lantern. And thats leaf’s not leaves. 🙂

            • I get 25+ hours of use from a 20# tank. Used to be 27 hrs, but they are underfilling the tanks for the past couple of years. I keep 4 propane tanks on hand, two are usually full.

              The 1# canisters for the Coleman BlackCat heaters last 4 hrs on high and 7 hours on low.

              Don’t have exact figures on butane canisters for a two-burner stove, but they last a long time.

              I heat an 800 sq ft workshop solely on propane w/an efficient furnace and a 2000 sq ft house that relies mostly on wood, w/propane backup and all-propane hot water, w/1000+ gallons total/year. The lower part of the shop burns wood and we just don’t use it much in the coldest part of the winter. We have 2 500-gallon tanks. I have reduced that from 1200 gallons over the past 4 years. Propane dropped in price for bulk tank fills this year by about 18%.

              Electric rates are creeping up. .125 kWh in winter this year and will go up to .13+ or .14 next summer, I presume. The hard part is they keep raising the *facility fee*, the taxes and the fees for the low income subsidies. Those amount to 30% of our bill right now on top of 850 kWh/month. Can’t cut much further, as a lot of that is business related.

              Even w/warmer Fall and Winter, I put up and buy 4 full cords of wood a year, so we now have enough for 2 hard winters. Cost of wood has increased 25% over 4 years.

              We have a well and a large septic. Both use electricity. Pumping the septic has increased in cost by 1/3 over the past 6 years, due to government mandates and permits on the pumpers.

              We store gasoline for the generator, have a couple of inverters, one more powerful than the other and chargers and a couple of deep-cycle marine batteries that are also used on the sailboat. Trying to add one large deep cycle battery/year. Hardest is stocking small batteries. Even kept in the freezer, they only last a few years. I try to keep rotating them. We use some rechargables, but they hold less charge after awhile, IMO.

              The availability of fuel, heat and light have been my biggest worry. We are too far North and in a valley, so solar and wind are not cost effective. When we downsize, we will look for something maybe 3/4 of the way up the ridge so wind could be possible. Top of the ridge is vulnerable to tornadoes and is colder in the winter. A neighbor has a windmill and a small house with a little workshop and it is working for him.

        • Just a comment, milk containers are designed to decompose over time. They may last a year tops, give or take how much UV they’re exposed to, before they start to leak and give way. Please do not store water in them for long term. Use recycled water bottles, soda bottles instead or pick up some ‘water cooler’ 5 gallon water jugs from any reasonable sized local store depending on how quickly you want to stock up and can get recycled containers.

          Also remember that chlorox has a shelf life of about 6 months before it because fairly useless for water purification. Make sure you rotate it so you have a fresh bottle around. Better yet get some pool shock (two year shelf life, one $1 to $2 bag will purify thousands of gallons) and the ratios to make your own as you need it.

          • HisArmsWide

            I did not know that about the milk jugs deteriating but it is true. I have noticed that the older ones have started leaking. No wonder I can’t get ahead. I also didn’t know that bleach got old. I also didn’t know that pool shock lasts longer. I will make these corrections on all accounts. That’s why I like this site. Good people with good ideas.

          • I have Simply Grapefruit, Simply Orange containers; get about 2 a week. They don’t leak and are sturdy.
            EVERY empty here gets filled with water.
            I have a Berkey; if it’s stored water in a cleaner/chemical container??? I can use it for laundry, bath??
            I do have (20)30 gallon water drums; had the filled containers first, and just kept going with it.
            My only leaks came from milk jugs—DON’T.

            • Here, pool shock ( calcium Hypochlorite, not sodium hypo)is $4.
              I have 2 bags, plenty for a loooong time.
              I don’t even buy bleach any longer.

            • If the juice bottles have the number 1 in the recycle symbol, they are PET or PETE. These have another use even more interesting than storing water for the long term. If you take water that is filtered but not disinfected, you can place it in one of these filled bottles and set it out in direct sunlight from 9 AM to 3 PM, and the UV rays from the sun will disinfect the water. It’s called solar disinfection or SODIS for short. Google SODIS and you will find an organization promoting this practice in the third world to fight dysentary and other water-borne disease.

              If you want to get even more fancy, get yourself some granular activated carbon from a pet store. (It’s used in fish tanks.) If you take pond water, filter it using coffee filters (or Berkey or sand or cloth), disinfect with SODIS, and remove volatile organic compounds with granular activated carbon, you have mastered the art of low tech water treatment.

              I want to make sure lots of readers of STHFplan are around to help me rebuild society and fresh drinking water will be one of the key things to keep us alive. The great part is it is extremely low cost, made mostly of junk. You can even make your own charcoal to replace the granular activated carbon if you want it to be totally sustainable at little or no cost. Better yet, pick up a home distiller from Terry West, an advertiser on this site.

              After the SHTF please look for me. I’ll be the one looking to trade bottles of filtered disinfected water for other things of value. See you on the other side!

        • Remember two is one and one is none….

          It is wise to focus on basics, and redundancy in those must have preps. Only then should you venture into high end / high risk preps.

          What I mean by that is, investing in a comprehensive solar solution is darn expensive, it may well be worth it, it’s your money spend it how you best see fit, but it may also mean other areas could go overlooked if you don’t follow a solid plan.

          We purchased our 60 acre farm for the main intent of getting away from the “roving hoard”, and to have the ability to go off grid.

          We built a brick home for our residence, downsized from 3,600 sf to 2,600 sf.

          We turned the original home place (small 4 bedroom house) into a full functioning workplace to process game & fish, skin fur, can and store the produce from the gardens, and I added an outside access door to one bedroom and turned it into a milking station for the goats.

          Other than the decision to “buy the farm” our most expensive purchase to date, is an off grid solar solution.

          We have (24)- 204v photovalic solar panels on (2) separate Lorance trackers. Those are tied into (2) 5,000 (sunnyboy) inverters that go into a sub panel.

          They can independently run the critical load(s) with the flick of a switch.

          The backup is (24) – 12 volt deep cycle lithium (Valance) batteries tied into (2)-5,000 watt converters (sunny Islands).

          Once the sun goes down, we can flip to the batteries if need be. we can run about a week on batteries alone if we regulate and manage usage.

          The cost savings / ROI is about 65 years…So as you can imagine, we did this as an investment to ensure long term access to electricity.

          There is still no guarantee we will have access to power (tornado, EMP etc…) but we felt the risk / reward was worth it.

          Just like buying the 250 gal gas barrel, 500 gal diesel barrel, the 500 gal propane barrel, or cutting and stacking (currently) 8 cords of wood, these thing come after we have our food, security (guns & ammo), medical supplies (the basics) in order.

          As I have said before we don’t consider it “prepping” we consider it the lifestyle we have chosen. It is a self sufficient, rugged individualist meme that we adhere to, and enjoy our life together as hard work and good fortune has allowed.

          Good luck..

          • Well said brother

          • WallyDog,

            Similar preps here. We moved to a fairly secluded 70ac in mid 80’s, and have been working on it to be self sufficient ever since.

            Water: Gravity fed spring, 3000gal of storage tanks.

            Septic for waste disposal.

            Burn wood for heat, keep 6-10 cords cut ahead. ( Winter 2013-14 is already cut ).

            Propane for backup heat, and to cook/heat water. Use about 250 gallons/yr, keep 3-500gal tank + dozen 100lb portable tanks.

            Fuel: 300gal gasoline tank on stand, 200 gallon diesel. Keep 500gal of each in sealed 55gal drums w/PRI. 2 drums of kerosene.

            Electric: Started in 2008 with a 2.1kw (panel peak), 1200amp/hr battery backup, twin 2500w Outback inverters. Grid tied because our utility offers great infeed rate, but a flip of the transfer switch puts us totally off grid if need be.

            Expanded that in 2009 to 3.2kw, and in 2011 to 5.95kw. Three arrays on homebuilt trackers, 30 panels total.

            Getting ready to add another 2500watt of grid tie only ( Enphase micro inverters ).

            As of that last expansion, we have no electric bill, and they will pay us about $400 at end of December. With this new array, next year that will bump to 600 or more. Our electric use is about 900kw/hr/month on average….none of it heat, cooking, or water heating. Do run 2-4 freezers during the year, and a wood shop though.

      15. Mac, have you been taking pictures of my house? I was going to enter them into “The Redneck Yard of the Week” contest.

        There is enough in this life to darken the mood and break your heart that are real. Don’t go looking for things to worry about because you might find more than you can take…..God Bless

        • I will give you a run for redneck curb appeal

          • Why you old Fla. cracker, of course you would.

      16. We live in rural Pottawatomie County,KS. We hadn’t been paying much attention to our electric bill from Bluestem Electric. I noticed on our last bill the rate wasn’t listed. It used to be .125/Kwh. The last bill figured out to be .189?Kwh. We’re taking steps now to reduce our usage. Talk about hiding the rate so we don’t notice the increase…totally unethical. We can afford the increase right now, but what about those who are just getting by? Is a government takeover of electric plants in our future to distribute electricity fairly?

        And this increase is only due to EPA regulations. What about when the results of our unending government money printing press come home to roost? We haven’t seen anything yet.

        It’s going to be an interesting fall and 1013. Time to wake your neighbors and friends up. Time to prep if you haven’t started yet.

        • Cleo, have so-called “Smart Meters” been installed recently in your area by any chance? These nasty devices, which are subsidized by Fed-Gov as part of its tightening control grid, track your electricity usage and bill you at different rates, depending upon time of day. Most of the unfortunates who get saddled with these immediately notice steep hikes in their electric bill, and as a bonus their bodies receive constant streams of microwave radiation. Here one example of the impact on the cost of electricity:


          Here’s a general discussion of the problems with smart meters:


          Worst of all, smart meters let “them” (and any skillful criminal hackers) know what kind of electrically operated equipment/electronics you are running. It also gives “them” the ability to selectively deactivate any devices in your home “they” see fit to shut down.

          An exec of my local utility company AND my state senator both confirmed that the funds for the smart meter grid came as a CONDITIONAL grant from Fed Gov, and that in order for the electricity provider to actually get it ALL, there must be 100% COMPLIANCE from all the customers on the grid.

          I told the electric company honcho I would NOT be getting a smart meter any time soon, but offered to discuss it with him after he exposed his own kids to, say, then years worth of microwave radiation and provided me with a list of the quantity and size of the tumors they develop.

          Kudos to Mac for posting this article — the scenario postulated in it WILL happen, and Smart Meters give “them” the means to do it.

          Beyond the electricity issue, what we are witnessing in Amerika today is the construction of an elaborate machinery that enables a tiny minority to corral and control a vast multitude.

          Considered in light of Senator LIEberman’s calls for an internet kill switch, Senator Levin’s provision for “Indefinite Detention” in the NDAA of 2012, and Senators Feinstein’s and Schumer’s plans to reimpose a more draconian version of the Bill Clinton “Assault Weapons Ban,” could these bastards be making their intentions toward us any clearer?

          • Not to mention the over one billion hollow point bullets that were bought. I would say that their intentions are crystal clear.

      17. This article expresses what I’ve pondered for awhile and I believe we really are headed that direction.

        Also, an electrician friend was telling me about a recent power outtage at one of the local public housing projects. They had to have a police escort into the projects in order to take a look at the problem. It was night time and the electricians wanted to return the next morning to work on the problem but the police were politely insistent that they work on it all night. The cops explained that LE would be busy all night with calls to that area if they didn’t get it fixed and get everyone back inside. Something to think about…..

        • Sunshine- Wow!

      18. Normal household bleach can be used to kill germs in water. Bleach will not
        kill tuberculosis germs however. Regular household bleach is a solution of
        5.25% sodium hypochlorite. It should be JUST bleach, no extra whiteners and
        brighteners. Many bleachs state “not fit for human consumption”, if they
        conatin ONLY hypochlorite, they are suitable for water sterilization. You add
        1/2 tsp to 5 gallons of water if it is clear, 1 tsp if the water is cloudy
        (hint: stock up on commercial sized coffee filters at Sam’s). Allow to sit at
        least 30 minutes, be sure to splash treated water on lid, spout, funnel etc.

        P.S. the chlorine gas will bleed through most plastic bottles, so over time
        your chlorine concentration goes down (hint: add more if the bleach is old or
        has been stored in a warm place)

        You can make your own bleach by purchasing swimming pool “burn out” or
        “shock treatment”. It must be ONLY 65% calcium hypochlorite, no addtional
        anti-fungals or clarifiers. In an EXTREMELY well ventilated area, (Hint:
        OUTSIDE!) add 24.5 grams (about 10 Tablespoons) of powder to one gallon of
        water for a 5.25% solution. Five pounds of dry pool bleach costs about
        $10-15, which will make about 92 gallons of bleach, which will sterilize
        706,560 gallons of clear water, or 353,280 gallons of cloudy water.
        If you allocate 3 gallons per person per day for drinking, food preparation,
        and sanitation, $15 will take care of 100 people for one year.


        • @ Copperhead,

          Howdy…a small correction if you don’t mind. Sodium Hypochlorite does not degrade in the bottle unless it ghas something to interact with. The chlorine is stabilized in the compound. You can let ir sit as long as you like in it’s original sealed container wothout fearing that it will lose potency. Evolved Chlorine gas can and will escape from almost anything, but that only happens aftersomething other than the original contents of the bottle have reacted with the compound. Also, leaving a bottle of Chlorox uncapped allows all the things floating in the air to do exactly what I’ve described above, barring a ‘dollop’ of ‘something’ getting into the solution the simple expedientof recapping it after use prevents any further degradation of the contents. BTW, I’m not trying to come off as ‘know-it-all, Smart-aXX’ here lately..it just helps when you’ve have 9 or 10 semesters of college chemistry…just trying to get the straight info into the hands of those who’ll be using it in the future. Again, no offence intended.

          • JOG: Thanks! Like I posted Wisdom shared is Wisdom NOT Wasted

          • Incidentally,

            Please forgive the poor diction in my post lately…my idiot keyboard seems to be having spastic silicon infarctions which I believe are indicative of impending finality… I’ve got one of those Bluetooth 2.0 Logitech Di Novo’s, they great for about a year then they slowly start ‘giving up the Ghost’. I’ll source a replacement in the next week or two, until then my apologies for the egregious typo’s that keep appearing…..

        • Copperhead, on a preparedness site, someone calculated for smaller quantities…
          1/4 tsp of CH to 1 cup water for the solution.
          Add 1/s tsp of mixed solution to 2 liters of water

          Is this even close??


          • that’s 1/2 tsp to 2 liters..duh!

        • Google “Acidified bleach”. It will kill bacterial spores.
          Basically 1 cup regular dilution household bleach in one gallon of water, then add 1 cup regular white vinegar.

      19. here a question… i live in the pacific nw and there isnt much sunlight to use solar power up here let alone charge batteries… so what am i spose to do? i would really like to get off grid but at this place i live (ahouse in the burbs) how am i to do that?

        • MOVE!!!!

      20. Wisdom shared is Wisdom NOT Lost. If you info please share, many will Thank You for it.

      21. just thought of this… i could use altenators to charge batteries and run a power converter, even though inefficiant i could put my poms on a treadwheel and have them charge them…. lol

        • I know you meant that as a bit of a joke but just to add on, muscle powered electricity is a very inefficient means of power unless there is an abundant supply of food and water. Otherwise the calories burned far outweigh all but the most critical of needs in power. A small solar panel, controller and inverter during the daylight would be a far better investment. Add some good deep cycle batteries and you’ll have some power for when the sun goes down as well.

          • yeah it was a joke… im in the pdx area and most of the time its cloudy and not enough sunlight to get a panel to generate much power… even though im close to the gorge the winds are unpredictable and its not feasable to put up a turbine to generate power, because there is the high winds to turn it…. thanks for your thoughts

            • deano: You need to learn how to do more with less electricity.

              Electricity in our lives, is like heroin to an addict. I admit, electicity makes life easiery, in good and bad times.

              But if there is no electrical solution for you. Then you need to learn to do without. Quite putting energy into worrying, put it into a sustainable way of life your yourself.

              Good luck.

        • Deano, you don’t want to use a regular car or truck alternator for that project… in order to get the 14.5 charging volts, you need to be spinning the alternator at least a 1000 rpm’s – depending of the original design intent of the alternator… believe it or not, there is a company out there that actually builds a contraption designed to do exactly what you want it to do… (I took their design and modified it a bit and then built a cheaper version for myself…DIY project – I was board)… anyway… here’s the website:


          If you want to build it yourself:

          • cool cool cool thanks everyone for the insight and info you have freely givin me much appreciated

      22. yes, this is what i’m expecting.

        regardless of who is president next, US coal plants and refineries have been closed or regulated down to where its going to really start affecting electricity and prices in some areas.

        combine that with the record droughts that’ll be bringing price inflations to all foods next year and 2013 is going to be much worse, no mateer who is in the white house and what they do.

        i’m thinking summer 2013 is when the shtf and there isnt thing one that can be done to stop it because every time for the past 10 years, when those in power saw a problem; they just played the blame game rather than fix it.

      23. As for solar, also check out http://www.goalzero.com. I have a bunch of their products and I’m happy, but wanting “more”. They’re high-end unit, the Yeti, supposedly can run a field hospital-type setup.

        (I don’t work for them, but just a very happy customer.

      24. Off topic: I heard that Putin, the Castro Brothers, and Hugo Chavez have all endorsed Barry for dictator, er I mean Pres. Wow!

      25. Donald Trump, the real estate mogul, reality TV star and de facto leader of the “birther” movement, says he is planning a “big announcement” about President Barack Obama.

        “I have something very, very big concerning the president of the United States,” Trump told “Fox & Friends” on Monday during a phone interview. “I will be announcing it sometime probably Wednesday and it’s going to be very big.”

        “Will it change the election?” co-host Gretchen Carlson asked Trump.

        “Possibly,” Trump replied. “It’s very big—bigger than anybody would know.”

        So…Wonder what it could be, or will it be just BS or will he be paid to shut up?..guess we will or wont find out

      26. If we are hit with an EMP or solar flare, the entire grid will be gone, and NOBODY, NOT EVEN THE ELITE, will have power. It will be something like out of “One Second After” or “Lights Out”. I’m looking into a woodstove for my home and a solar setup. Best wishes and keep prepping. Braveheart

      27. In reply to Mama Bear’s comment “we were lucky that we can bring our own wood into the state parks again”.

        State parks AKA “open air motels”.

        A little tip on fire starting, take the lint from out of your driers lint trap and put it in a container (the bottom third of a pop can) and pour melted wax on it. Saturate it with wax. You will have to do it by pouring a little wax in the can then stuffing some lint then more wax and then more lint…. I save all my used citronella candles from summers’ camping trips for the wax. I buy the citronella candles that come in the tin pots and I use the pot for melting the wax. I heat it up on the kitchen stove. One lint fire starter will burn for about 20 minutes or so (depends on how big you make it) and the melting wax will help with catching the wood on fire. It’s nice to have some in the camping box and back pack. It makes starting a fire in damp conditions a little easier.

        • I put the lint in TP and paper towel rolls.

      28. Forgot mention, take the fire starter out of the pop can after it hardens and then make some more. I’ll put the can in the freezer to speed up the hardening of the wax. Some people use egg cartons but I prefer the pop can.

      29. 1st: This article has the location wrong. It should be Jefferson County… NOT Jackson County.

        2nd: No one has ever seen the $300 bill in Jefferson County Al. Maybe a commercial bill?

        Jefferson County Official Rates are:
        ewer charges are based on water consumption as determined by your Water Board. Rates are $7.40 per 100 cubic feet of water used of $9.89 per 1000 gallons of water used. Residential customers are given a 15% discount for water that does not enter the customer’s sewer lines at their home. (Rates effective 1/1/2008)

        A poster online quoted his bill as follows:

        here are my new rates for 2011

        base charge $13.58
        0-5000 gallons (per 1,000) $3.24
        6,000-20,000 Gallons $3.52
        over 20,000 Gallons (per 1,000) $3.92

        mountain pipeline charge $6.50 per month
        water treatment plant charge $5.40 per month

        Residential flat fee $23.28

        Now the question is exactly why would an article get so much wrong then accuse the sheeple of not being aware of whats going on.

        If I am wrong then possibly some people living in Jefferson County Al. can show the $300 average normal residential bill. By normal I mean no pipes broke or other water leaks that would cause this anomaly. More than one please…

        I will be extreamly surprised if this comment makes it past the moderators,,, as the truth never seems to be a high priority these days.

      30. Shutting off electricity to the little people would signal the end of the bread and circuses. Talk about a wake up call. Could be a good thing in the long run.

      31. one thing i dont see anyone talking about here is water and food! they are both high necessities of everyday life and on the energy aspect why just solar why not wind or even pet powered generators

      32. If you have followed the economic decline over the past several years, you will see how the American citizens have been conditioned to accept less and Like It!

        The economy started it’s decent….higher gas prices caused inflation in the trucking business, which caused inflation in food, clothing and daily essentials and not so essential products.

        The public paniced and started making a ruckus. The noise from the ruckus became so loud the politicians had to prepare a feasable explanation for the citizens and pray that they would swallow it. A few minor adjustments were made to appease the masses. It worked for a time.

        But some of it went over like a lead balloon and the rest voted in our current president with the hope and change montra.

        Most of us have seen where that has lead us.

        More people squatting in their defaulted homes without electricity. While still trying to maintain some resemblance of there former lifestyle.

        Others feeling fortunate to have family/friends to hunker down with, while trying desperately to figure out a way to get back on the path of the American Dream that our Current President has assured us we all deserve.

        Then those whole families living out of their automobiles, trucks, camp trailers or motor homes. Thankful that they haven’t fallen so low as to not have any shelter over head. Digging through trash for items of use and begging for handouts at the many Rest Areas that dot our inner state highways. Most of you know who I am talking about.

        Then we have those that are completely without shelter or at the least have a tent to protect them from the enviornemt. They have reached the bottom. Most of them have accepted their situation as mostly permanent. There will be no REAL help from the powers that be.

        The reason I say this is………

        Look at all the new laws and regulations preventing those who can help from having any possitive affect on the poor, homeless and hunger citizens that will one day soon, out number those that have.

        It is illegal, punishable by fine/jail time if you feed the hungery, if you give the homeless a place to congregate within the view of the many citizens (sheeple) who still believe that the homeless are drunks and addicts.

        Charity organizations have been the MAIN SOURCE of help for the needy for centurys. Now the government has made it illegal for the charity organizations to help the needy with food, shelter and clothing without going through the government. They want to control the givers and the recievers.

        When does this insanity stop?

        It stops when we as citizens take back our own power. Our united power that will help us build STRONG FUNCTIONING communities away from the government strangle hold. We each have to take responsibility for building up our commuinities and making them sustainable in a world of unsustainable lifestyles.

        Get away from your televisions with its advertisments of utopia. Utopia doesn’t exist!

        Get away from the mind killing technology that is controling over 50% of our lives.

        Go work in the dirt….talk to your neighbor….attend a church….volunteer as a reader in the school system….deliver food to the needy.

        This Christmas, instead of buying presents for the adults in your family….Give them cards explaining what time/money you have donated on their behalf in your community. Explain how this donation helped that organization/person/family and how it affected your life.

        If we do not change the course of our decent now, if we do not try to soften the blow we are about to experience, then DEATH will be the outcome for more then I care to count.

        God bless and keep on prepping.

      33. The site did post the article… Good for you!

        Now if we can just get these alternative news sites to verify their articles! Credibility is everything,,, especially when the AM sites joke about MSM credibility.

        nuff said…

        PS: I see nothing wrong with converting from Coal to Natural gas of which we have an abundance of. In fact the Electric Utility I get power from has lowered it’s rates because of this…

        just sayin…

      34. All right.

        You win. I’m wrong.

        I’ll vote for Romney simply over the coal thing. To be forced back to the 17th century by presidential mandate is simply assenine.

        I’ll hold my nose and vote for the guy.

        And pray to God I don’t end up living in a world of $12 gas and huge wealth divide ANYWAY due to war with Iran and “trickle down” economics the Republicans seem so very enamored with.

        • I live in a coal state and 41% of democrats voted for a Texas inmate instead of him in the primary.

        • Look, I know.

          I hate the idea too.

          Loathe it.

          Beyond words.

          But what the hell am I supposed to do??? Watch us go back to horses and buggies and shanty towns?

          Seriously if anyone’s got a better idea I’m all ears…

          • If he okays the Keystone Pipeline, brings back permits for extraction on Federal lands, changes out the political appointees at EPA, et al, eliminates entire Directorates and the jobs they entail, cancels the myriad EOs of the past 4 years and hands most areas of social and health legislation back to the States ala the Tenth, things will not just get better, they will boom.

            • Absolutely!!!

      35. Hello Mac, I am very happy to read through a thread where the number of positive and helpful comments have far exceeded the norm where argumentative, negative can exceed 50% posted.

        Posters-contributers continue the positive and sharing comments. Learned alot today. Thank you to all.


      36. hahahahahaa

      37. At one time it was , so were cars . But at that time they were new inventions . Now we know about too many ways to generate it , yeah it might not be what we are used to right now but , we would have it .Living in the SW , we have an over abundance of sun , and there are several houses out here that are off the grid on solar .

        • My new (surplus) M91/30 cost $79 on sale at a regional camping store. Look for sales between now and Christmas. Last year Cabella’s was selling Ruger 10/22 for $199.

      38. there are already millions of people who cannot afford water, electricity or heating fuel. personally, i am all for using less or getting by without and know that i can do it…it is not necessarily comfortable to do without or do with less but hey, it is a cruel world out there and you just do what ya gotta do.

      39. Re : looking for wood stove. just bought two of the Deluxe Stove Tec Rocket stoves. (My wife liked the first one so much she asked me to get another!)

        The game changer: Instead of having to cut and split logs with saws for an open fire, we were gathering small sticks (usually drier and easier to burn) without having to bring any other tools, and no charcoal or gasoline/fuel. It took us no time at all to get the pot boiling. Because it’s small, you have to periodically push the sticks into the stove, but again, it’s so little work.

        Also, with minimal expense, some hot water:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IRLVCJ1olA&feature=g-all-u

        This is what sold me on it.
        I think there are some questions about whether the stove could be used to pressure cook with the big pots. I think so, but will be giving it a try to find out myself.

        The stoves are too heavy to backpack , but over time would pay for themselves because of the efficiency….which leads me on to bigger things, namely wood stoves. My criterion for an indwelling stove is now efficiency…how much heat can I get for just a little wood? Anyone have insight into any new designs out there?

        • Has anybody seen the ” biostove “??? Comes in a small backpack model or large in home style. Runs off of sticks also runs USB charger.

      40. So Mac, if you’re quoting John on CO2 emissions you then agree with him on the total lack of risk from radiation from Fukushima then too? (the article was released today and he is already being shown as incorrect!)


        Yet you quote a article from him with no peer review what-so-ever that uses arguments that have actually been made before and fell apart, he just rewords it. He also uses commercial heaters that work in the near visible end of the infrared spectrum which acts completely different then the far end where the sun operates for his thesis. He also failed to observe the absorption spectrum for H2O and CO2 in the article he quoted!

        I read both sides of the argument. I do the simple, “does it sound right based on my slightly better then average knowledge of science cause I’m a geek at heart that finds doing calc at home in my spare time, fun”? And in this case, I know this guy is going to be sent home with his tail between his legs crying (who doesn’t like to see a grown man cry though?!)

        Ask yourself a few simple questions. Was this summer one of the hottest on record? Yes! (for a lot of the world too). Have we been heating up at a faster rate then we’ve found in ice core samples going back millions of years? Yes. Can that slightly higher velocity (not huge jump, just slight) be explained by human input that previously was not there, yes. Is it going to kill us? Doubtful to highly unlikely. Should we find alternative sources of energy? Absolutely and anyone who disagrees enjoys sending our kids to die in wars overseas. Twisted people need only apply!

        • Global warming ended fifteen years ago. It is now being repackaged as climate change which BTW is also happening on Mars and is caused by changes in our sun. More scientists pursue global warming theories for no other reason than because that is where the government grant money is found. We are no more responsible for it than we were the last ice age.

      41. The butterfly effect
        The tiny seemingly insignificant action
        That can trigger a much greater result
        It plays a part in all our lives

        It is elusive

        Learn to identify it
        Recognize it
        See it when it happens

        To know it is to Be truly aware…

        The watcher

      42. Global Warming has not been debunked any more than the theory of evolution.

        The part of the idea that is incorrect is that it will lead to the end of civilization.

        Truth be told the warm weather and increase of CO2 is just what we’re going to need when it comes time to feed ourselves and keep ourselves warm without fossil fuels.

      43. “According to alternative journalist Susanne Posel, “Humans are now being compared to invasive species that commandeer territory, disburse indigenous wildlife and destroy the planet in the process…”

        Exactly so. But these roaches are in the UN!

      44. I’m waiting for them to deem that septic tanks and well-water out in the boonies are unsafe or are an environmental hazard…

      45. Obama is shutting down our coal industry. If he is re-elected the electric industry is banrupt. My son in law who lives in Va. is paying over $500 a month now. Our economy can’t stand much more of this. Break out the oil lamps and it is back to the 1800’s. I remember an old song “Country Boys will survive”, I say, patriots WILL survive.

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