Retail Disaster: Holiday Sales Crater by 11%, Online Spend Declines: NRF Blames Shopping Fiasco On “Stronger Economy”

by | Nov 30, 2014 | Headline News | 191 comments

Do you LOVE America?


    This report was originally published at Zero Hedge.


    Last year was bad. This year is an outright disaster.

    As we reported earlier using ShopperTrak data, the first two days of the holiday shopping season were already showing a -0.5% decline across bricks-and-mortar stores, following a “cash for clunkers”-like jump in early promotions which pulled demand forward with little follow through in the remaining shopping days. However, not even we predicted the shocker just released from the National Retail Federation, the traditionally cheery industry organization, which just reported absolutely abysmal numbers: sales during the four-day Thanksgiving holiday period crashed by a whopping 11% from $57.4 billion to $50.9 billion, confirming what everyone but the Fed knows by now: the US middle class is being obliterated, and that key driver of 70% of US economic growth is in the worst shape it has been since the Lehman collapse, courtesy of 6 years of Fed’s ruinous central planning.

    Demonstrating the sad state of America’s “economic dynamo”, shoppers spent an average only $380.95, down 6.4% from $407.02 a year earlier. In fact, as the NRF charts below demonstrate, there was a decline across virtually every tracked spending category (source):


    As the WSJ reports, NRF’s CEO Matt Shay attributed the drop to a combination of factors, including the fact that retailers moved promotions earlier this year in attempt to get people out sooner and avoid what happened last year when people didn’t finish their shopping because of bad weather.

    Also did we mention the NRF is perpetually cheery and always desperate to put a metric ton of lipstick on a pig? Well, hold on to your hats folks:

    He also attributed the declines to better online offerings and an improving economy where “people don’t feel the same psychological need to rush out and get the great deal that weekend, particularly if they expected to be more deals,” he said.

    And of course the sprint vs marathon comparisons, such as this one: “The holiday season and the weekend are a marathon not a sprint,” NRF Chief Executive Officer Matthew Shay said on a conference call. Odd how that metaphor is never used when the (seasonally-adjusted) sprint beats the marathoners.

    So there you have it: a 11% collapse in retail spending has just been spun as super bullish for the US economy, whereby US consumers aren’t spending because the economy is simply too strong, and the only reason they don’t spend is because they will spend much more later. Or something.

    Apparently the plunge in Americans who even care about bargains is also an indication of an economic resurgence:

    The retail trade group said the number of people who went shopping over the four-day weekend declined by 5.2% to 134 million, from 141 million last year.

    Finally, what we said earlier about a surge in online sales, well forget it – it was a lie based on the now traditional skewed perspectives from a few self-servcing industry organizations:

    Despite many retailers offering the same discounts on the Web as they offered in stores, the Internet didn’t attract more shoppers or more spending than last year. Online sales accounted for 42% of sales racked up over the four-day period, the same percentage as last year, though up from 26% in 2006, the trade group said.

    In fact, it was worse: “Shoppers spent an average $159.55 online, down 10.2% from $177.67 last year.”

    But the propaganda piece de resistance is without doubt the following:

    “A highly competitive environment, early promotions and the ability to shop 24/7 online all contributed to the shift witnessed this weekend,” Mr. Shay said.

    So to summarize: holiday sales plunged, and Americans refused to shop because the economy is “stronger than ever” and because Americans have the option of shopping whenever, which is why they didn’t shop in the first place. That, and of course plunging gasoline prices leading to… plunging retail sales, just as all the economists “correctly” predicted.

    Goebbels approves.


    It Took 22 Years to Get to This Point

    Gold has been the right asset with which to save your funds in this millennium that began 23 years ago.

    Free Exclusive Report
    The inevitable Breakout – The two w’s

      Related Articles


      Join the conversation!

      It’s 100% free and your personal information will never be sold or shared online.


      1. The numbers are finally coming to reality..slowly but surely.

        At least zero hedge is another like minded site like here.

        Kudos ..

        Most here,not all, know the game is rigged and the so called recovery is a massive farce..

        Zero hedge is my trusted site for the real news and facts on strictly the financials..

        SHTF for the rest of the story..


        • I have already seen these numbers. Not an auspicious start, but I would say its a little premature to say Christmas Season Sales have tanked.

          The amount per customer could be a function of steep early discounts in an effort to move old technology and a combination of other factors.

          I mean there is a REASON for those long lines on Black Friday; and why some folks camped out two weeks in advance at Best Buy.

          That said, the year over year drop could spur retailers to cut prices in advance of the holiday, for fear of being stuck with inventory; so overall, more units may sell with lower margins and lower aggregate profits.

          I am willing to wait until after Christmas sales have finished, before admitting that the American consumer is dead and ordering the headstone. The smart money has a modest but nice Christmas and buys cheap in February.

          Still as I have said, I think this is the last “hurrah” before the GREAT UNRAVELING begins. 🙁

          • DK, I have that same feeling. I feel the ‘great unraveling’ is just around the corner.

            • One thing this piece doesn’t mention is Obamacare and it’s impact on the economy. Next year it goes into effect and people are already getting squeezed. I know of a couple that barely make ends meet. They combined make a little over 11K per year. When they went to the exchange just to price Obamacare, first they found out they didn’t qualify and had to buy insurance from the exchange/marketplace.

              Hmm, I thought the sole purpose of Obamacare was for POOR people?

              Anyway’s it would cost them over $900 per month with a $10,000 deductible for a bronze plan. That’s the governments gift to it’s citizens. Just make them poorer.

              I CAN’T wait to see next years retails sales numbers when people are actually FORCED to pay for health insurance. 😉

              • What is really phucked up about the obama-scare unhealthy law; it lets mooslims opt out without penalty, due to their religion. I’m sure Hindus and buddhists have the same freedom.

                If a christian tried that, the IRS would be knocking down the door with armed agents, ready to confiscate assets.

                The liberals have sure caused a headache for poor people. I’ve never seen a poor liberal. If you see a poor person even claim to be a liberal, and/or vote for a liberal/dem, then they are missing part of a brain.

                You know, the part that houses common sense.

                • If you want out of ObunglerCare, try Liberty HealthShare, which I use. I similar are Samaritan Healthcare or Christian Healthshare. About a 1/3 of the price of what I was going to pay on COBRA when I left my job, and better coverage. I am utterly staggered why more people are not using these healthshare plans, which are legally exempted form ObunglerCare.

                  • I don’t think most people are aware of this option. They don’t advertise in our area and we found out about them through sheer luck. During an extended plant shutdown which became permanent, our former employer offered Cobra which we could not afford. Christian Health-share was wonderful. We only used it one time, for which I am glad, but it paid without argument or any surprises.

                    • BOOM & BUST: Dropping Oil Prices are putting a major hurt on the South Dakota Drillers. Those who borrowed heavily to drill and dependent on High prices are beginning to default. It is predicted it will shake out about 1/3rd of the Drillers and put them out of business. Is this the manipulation to shake out the weak players to drive prices up again? Those defaulting will drop the credit rating on the entire Oil/Energy sector and will cause layoffs in South Dakota, where many weak players went to drill.

                      We may see ghost towns up in SD, that came and went in just a few years. If I owned property up there in SD, I would be selling today, and get the heck out of there. Besides cold as Hell.

                      Central Gulf Coast FL Gas at $2.59 Today. and dropping 90 days in a row so far. I predict $2.00 Gas my March 2015.

                  • Here are some links about health shares.

                    Another option for Health Care – Health-Care Ministries
                    “The programs are structured in such a way that it’s not just a “give what you want, when you can” situation. There are coverage levels. There are tiers.

                    If you pay so much a month, your annual out-of-pocket expenses will be adjusted accordingly. It looks and feels a lot like insurance, and based on the satisfied testimonials of many who have participated over the years, it operates in a similar, if more personal way.

                    Two out of the four health-care ministries eligible for the coverage exemption — Medi-Share and Christian Healthcare Ministries — have A-plus ratings from the Better Business Bureau.

                    Medi-Share utilizes the MutiPlan PHCS network, the same large physician providers network that many insurance companies use.”

                    For more information:
                    • Christian Healthcare Ministries,
                    • Liberty HealthShare,
                    • Medi-Share,
                    • Samaritan Ministries,

                    • KY Mom. glad to see you back. Hope you had a good holiday.

                    • Braveheart,

                      Thank you!

                      I had a very nice Thanksgiving and enjoyed visiting with family.

                      Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving.

                      Take care.
                      KY Mom

                  • how about the option of ,go fuck yourself im not buying it because i am a free man and you have no right to tell me i have to buy a product ,just because you said so ,so dont change the narritive to a way to opt out is to go with this person or that person ,how about my option ,when i get sick i pay for it ,and when im not sick i dont have to pay for some one else’s health care

                • Maybe I will declare my self an “Atheist” and only believe in self-medication.

                  So Far My Medical Plan is Working for Me:
                  1. Plenty of Exercise,
                  2. Eat Healthy Food,
                  3. Drink Plenty of Filtered Drinking Water,
                  4. Stay away from all Prescription Drugs,
                  5. Daily Healthy Debate to Keep My Mind Sharp,
                  6. Stay away from Religious Nut Cast Cults,
                  7. Believe in Karma,
                  8. Get Plenty of Sunshine and Fresh Air,
                  9. Go Exploring and Stay Curious.
                  10.Stay Happy, Optimistic, Laugh and Love

                  **Therefore I “OPT OUT” of Obama Scare Commie Fleecing.

                  • WWTI, that’s interesting. I follow a similar plan and it works like a charm for me. No socialized healthcare for me ever.

                  • I try as much of that as possible…walking daily… trying to find irony in my ride on the planet… but being diagnosed as genetically epileptic at the age of 49 and surviving the drive off a 200 foot cliff at 70mph…they tell me I need these seizure meds to prevent the hundreds of annual seizures I’ve incurred over the last five years. So check this out…before my retirement deal kicked in and I was not on any insurance plan…my meds were almost $900 per month…but then they got me hooked up with the part D thing in Medicare for about $40 per month. Now my meds cost me, including the insurance premium…about $60 per month? How the heck is that business model even possible? Either the med manufacturer is really screwing people without insurance…or the Ponzi scheme cannot stand up much longer…eh? I mean, who picked up the $840 difference in the original cost to me without insurance? They are going to need a huge contribution pool to maintain that scheme…and with 95 million unemployed youth…I don’t see that happening?

                    RJ O’Guillory
                    Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane Family

              • Interesting. A salesman at Palmetto State Armory said business had been “crazy.”

                • Gun sales are picking up for us as well.

              • And the Republicans… are predictably doing… NOTHING! YAY!


            • No worry everything is nice and rosy till after the 1st of the year then the mass collapse happens. Retailers are the same pump and dumpers. You think they will give you the horrible news during the most important make or break month for retailers? Get real. Buy Preps and useful tools to get you through the grid down few years.

              Never buy any Gift Cards this year. Many retailers are selling these, then will close their doors Dec 26th. You will never be able to redeem your Gift Card Purchases. Its free money for them and you loose.

          • Dude-

            Your posts lately have been more bi-polar than usual.

            This is a sign.

            The unraveling began long ago.

            You are a shill. You have always been a shill.

            You are not a patriot.

            • Bingo….been saying this for four years now.

              He gets paid by the post and admits it.

              • Ka-Ching!!! 🙂

                • In Ferguson some Mom and Pop In-Store sales are down 100%, since they burned the Stores down. I wonder how the Hoodies are coping with no McDonalds in the Hood?? No Happy Hoodie Meal for you again today!!

                  We should air drop 10,000 FREE Toy Guns on the rioters.

                  • WWTI

                    “We should air drop 10,000 FREE Toy Guns on the rioters.”

                    Best idea I’ve seen yet.

              • Copied from the archives for your discernment, here’s Durango Kid demonstrating that he shoots from the hip without any support for his facts to back up what he says – which seems to indicate – don’t trust anything at face value the fella says because it appears that just about everything he said in the following snippet, is wrong.
                There’s a nice little map of the unitedstate central shale producing areas on the last one showing which areas are not profitable at $75 a barrel, let alone, at $45..

                Durango Kidd Comment ID: 3268928 says:

                “The break even point for US shale is about $45 a barrel.

                The Saudi’s are not in an energy war with US. Their war is against Iran, and Russia who support Assad; and whose break even cost to produce oil & gas is about $100 per barrel respectively.

                The Saudi BE cost is about $75 to $80 per barrel.

                […] Judgement Day is coming. Buy food and water. Buy ammo. :-(”

                quick says:
                Comment ID: 3269213
                November 17, 2014 at 12:37 pm

                “DK – All is bullshit but your last line”

                durango kidd says:
                Comment ID: 3269264
                November 17, 2014 at 3:12 pm

                “Quick: Its all true. You obviously know nothing about oil& gas and mining. I do. Do your homework. :-)”

                – Source of comments: Global Strategist: Judgment Day Is Coming: “This Will Be The Most Important Event Of Our Lives”
                Mac Slavo November 16th, 2014

                Ah-hem. The chart on the page below shows that the break even point for Saudia Arabia is at $92 per barrel:

                Thursday, November 27, 2014
                Oil Break-Even Prices – Economic Policy Journal

                “Only United Arab Emirates, Qatar and Kuwait are profitably producing most of their oil at current prices.” …

                The rest of DK’s false statements are easy enough to see, for those who do their homework anyway:

                OPEC keeps oil output on hold despite low prices
                By GEORGE JAHN – Associated Press Nov 27, 2:37 PM EST

                “The Saudis and their Gulf allies hope to put economic pressure on rival producers in the U.S., which need higher prices to break even.”

                “By opposing an output cut, Saudi Arabia appears to be hoping to drive prices below the level at which shale oil production is economical. Experts say shale oil production turns too costly at the $60 a barrel level.”…

                OPEC Policy Ensures U.S. Shale Crash, Russian Tycoon Says
                By Will Kennedy and Jillian Ward 2014-11-27T15:04:21Z – Bloomberg

                “At the moment, some U.S. producers are surviving because they managed to hedge the prices they get for their oil at about $90 a barrel, Fedun said. When those arrangements expire, life will become much more difficult, he said.”…

                Inside OPEC room, Naimi declares price war on U.S. shale oil
                By Alex Lawler, Amena Bakr and Dmitry Zhdannikov November 28, 2014 10:48 AM – Reuters

                ‘”Saudi Arabia’s oil minister told fellow OPEC members they must combat the U.S. shale oil boom, arguing against cutting crude output in order to depress prices and undermine the profitability of North American producers.’”…

                Wednesday, November 26, 2014
                “The Shale Revolution Doesn’t Work At $80” – Economic Policy Journal

                “Drilling for oil in 19 shale regions loses money at $75 a barrel, according to calculations by Bloomberg New Energy Finance.” […]

                “Everybody is trying to put a very happy spin on their ability to weather $80 oil, but a lot of that is just smoke,” said Daniel Dicker, president of MercBloc Wealth Management Solutions with 25 years’ experience trading crude on the New York Mercantile Exchange. “The shale revolution doesn’t work at $80, period.”

                Links to follow…

            • The unraveling probably began for you some time ago if your blog is any indication of your capabilities. LMAO!!! That is about the saddest thing I have every seen!!! Some of us saw this coming long, long ago and have avoided it.

              When the next Crash comes next year, many here will still be hurt; particularly those with small families like BJ. I will not be one of those.

              I would more than welcome a chance to engage you if you want to tell me why you think I am not a “patriot”. Is it because I am not a lemming willing to follow Rancher Bundy and Sheriff “Use The Children As Shields” Mack over the cliff for criminal trespass, refusing a Court order, and armed obstruction of justice against federal marshals attempting to execute those Court orders?

              Please, tell me all about my not being a Patriot. Lets hear your rationale. I’m all ears. 🙂

              USA!!! USA!!! USA!!! 🙂

              • the durango kidd says”

                “Please, tell me all about my not being a Patriot. Lets hear your rationale. I’m all ears.”

                plural noun: Tories

                1. An American colonist who supported the British side during the American Revolution.

                You’re a modern day Tory DK!

                You lick the boots and badges of the crown!!

                That’s why you’re not a patriot DK!!!

                • That actually applies to a good many posters here. The ones still stuck in the right/left paradigm, support these treasonous bastards. The ones who support and lick the boots of the cops are as well….for they are the guards, pigs, dogs of war for the political and elite class. Those that argue in favor of unconstitutional, unjust and unlawful taxes support the evil empire as well.

                  • YMWW: No I don’t support the NWO (British). I have explained how the NWO has marginalized the American people and our economy here for four years under their managed trade euphemism of FREE TRADE.

                    I support the US Constitution and understand that it is our most powerful weapon in the fight for our liberties.

                    True Patriots should not compromise the moral authority that Constitution gives them by supporting a common thief or a young black thug who caused his own death. 🙂

                    • durango kidd says:

                      “YMWW: No I don’t support the NWO (British).

                      Yes, you do!!!

                      You support Central Banking, aka, The NWO.

                      BTW… Would you please not insult this community further by writing: “Kill the Fed.”

                      You’re hypocrisy here is galling!!!

                    • YMWW: I support the MECHANISMS of central banking which are necessary and essential to a sophisticated economy.

                      The FEDERAL RESERVE is NOT necessary. As an Anarchist I wouldn’t expect you to understand that distinction. 🙂

                    • YMWW: Your ignorance is pathetic!!! 🙂

              • I didn’t support the Bundy. He is a deadbeat who refused to pay any grazing fees. He is no different than the food stamp free shit army who wants something from the government without paying.

                • Unfortunately, the Bundy family — like the American Indians – had been living on a reservation: They were never allowed to exercise ownership of their grazing “allotment,” in much the same way that Indians were not permitted to have clear title to their lands. […]

                  The public-land grazing system has been described as “the nation’s most conspicuous and extensive flirtation with socialism” – except, perhaps, for the Indian Reservation System. […]

                  the heirs to Sherman and Sheridan have mobilized an army to protect hired thieves who have come to steal the Bundy family’s cattle with the ultimate purpose of driving him from the land.

                  Their objective is not to protect the desert tortoise, but to punish a defiant property owner and entrepreneur. This potentially murderous aggression is being celebrated by Progressives as a worthy effort to make dangerous radicals “feel the superior power of the Government.”

                  The Cliven Bundy Standoff: Wounded Knee Revisited?

                  “In defiance of the U.S. Constitution and in harmony with the Communist Manifesto, the federal government is, by a considerable margin, the largest landowner in the United States. […]

                  Prior to 1976, the federal Leviathan recognized – albeit grudgingly – the authority of county governments to manage “federal” lands. The successor to King George’s distant, tyrannical government decided to celebrate America’s Bicentennial by enacting the Federal Land Policy and Management Act (PLPMA), which ended the pretense of actual federalism by announcing perpetual ownership of those lands by Washington. That same measure turned the BLM into a fully realized police force – a fact memorably displayed earlier this year in the agency’s paramilitary assault on Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy, his family, and their supporters. […]

                  Grant Gerber: Horatius on Horseback

                  I wonder, when the gunvernment took the lands from Mexico or the Native American Indians, how is that any different from when the free shit army takes stuff?

                  • Clark: That is the most pathetic defense of Rancher Bundy that I have ever seen in print.

                    “Unfortunately, the Bundy family — like the American Indians – had been living on a reservation: They were never allowed to exercise ownership of their grazing “allotment,” in much the same way that Indians were not permitted to have clear title to their lands. […]”

                    That is the most RIDICULOUS statement you have ever quoted!!!

                    Rancher Bundy living on a “reservation”? “not being allowed to exercise their grazing allotment”?

                    Dumbshit, he vacated his lease 20 years ago!!!!! Get a clue you fucking moron!!!

                    • I’m sorry… did you post something DK?

                    • Dumbshit… Get a clue you fucking moron!!!

                    • Well of course he saw that as ridiculous, that’s part of what makes him a modern day Tory.
                      The willful ignorance of a Tory knows no bounds.

          • Last year Low Sales was Blamed on the Weather. Last Year’s Ugly Sweater ain’t looking so Ugly this year, and sure keeps you warm. Women Wear and Female Teens clothes Sales are way down. Looks like the hungry are fitting into their skinny Jeans again. No need to buy more. I bet many women if they looked in their closets, they would find about 10% of their clothes still have the sales Tags on them. (Never Worn) Shopping is just an addiction and the feeling of self fulfilling ego accomplishment.

            • Finally, a comment from you that makes perfect sense.

              My “bitch-n-law” pc o shit liberal, has the addiction. Each week she calls up the wifey, and sounding like she just put down the crack pipe. I hear her loud excited voice over the phone as she tells her abou the lates “deal” she found at a yard sale, or discount store, or retail giant. She buys the ugliest, non-fitting crap that you have ever seen. i finally put my foot down and told the wifey; “the next piece of clothing i see come in this door, it is going straight to the charity dumpster as soon as you are not around.

              After having cleaned out her closets, yes “closets”, three times in the past five years, of shit she has never, nor ever will, wear; it was time to slam the door shut. She still has enough clothing to outfit a neighborhood, but wears the same three or four outfits all the time. She is retired and not working and doesn’t need fancy clothes anyway.

              Her “phucked up in the head” mother is 72, and gets her big “adrenaline rushes” when she spends. For the past eleven years that i have known her, she packs a building with shit she buys at yard sales and auctions every spring/summer, and then has a couple big yard sales every fall. She always loses her ass and ends up hauling a lot of the “worthless’ stuff to the landfill.
              She still works a part time job for one reason…. to shop and spend…gotta get those jollies….gotta waste some more $$$$$$$$$$….. then bitch and gripe about it… then repeat the next year.

              When shtf, i see a sick woman going over the edge because she can’t “shop & spend”. i see an overdose of medications on the horizon as she tries to cope. She will have plenty of bedfellows in the hereafter.

              • A back up Prepping substitution for toilet paper is all the old clothes in your closets you never wear, you can cut up into rags and wipe and dispose of then or burn after use. I use old underwear for car clean up rags and checking my oil levels. Old white cotton tube socks are great for taking dried car wax paste off and polishing.

              • PWTW:

                Gotta tell you there is as many male jackasses as female. Most of their toys, big screens, $50K trucks, ATV’s, etc., cause more debt than any yard sale ‘cookie’ could ever imagine.

                Just thought I would even things out, PWTW.

                • POG, I have a company vehicle and haven’t had my own vehicle since 2004. All my vehicles before that were something 20-30 years old paid for with cash from private owners. I don’t make enough money to even qualify for any loans. I’m literally debt-free, so dealing with credit is one type of stress I don’t have in my life. I can also buy more preps at one time than I could otherwise. Debt-free is an awesome feeling. And my detractors claim that I’m dense? They’d have to explain that one, but to this day I still hear crickets.

                • Yea I hear you granny, and you are right about men and toys and debt. Probably more men than women that have exuberant wasteful debt, for stuff.

                  However, i was only referring to wasting of funds that wasn’t borrowed $$; just hard earned $$ pissed away, because of the shopping/spending, bug/disease.

                  i think more women have the addiction, than men; especially when it comes to pissing away earned $$. I would hate to see the total amount pissed away on Chinese plastic toys for kids in a years time. Bought mostly by mommas and grannies. A lot of spoiled little rug rats out there.

                  I know, they “are” cute.

            • Not all of us are like that. I haven’t bought new clothes in a while since they’re all designed for fifteen-year-old hookers. After six kids, I don’t have abs and a perfectly flat stomach, even though I’m not overweight. I also can’t find clothes made in America unless they are “designed” by REALLY pricey labels. Am sure our chickens would appreciate the fancy clothes while the sheep would nibble on them. Duluth Trading impresses the guys at Tractor Supply more than Prada, and I’m fine with that.

              • I second everything you said Vicky. I have 6 children as well and though I am not over weight, technically I’m underweight, I still dont look 20 years old. Finding clothes that fit well and are flattering (not whore-ish) and not expensive is my goal. I don’t ever want to look ‘dumpy’ but I certainly don’t want to look like I’m trying for ‘Forever 21’.

                My 6 year old has just past from the toddler section into the mini whore, girls section. It’s revolting what is marketed in the size 6-16 girls section. Apparently it sells because it is there. I do find a good selection at the local childrens consignment shop in excellent condition.

            • Anybody order the “ugly Christmas sweater” from Teespring? The one with the AR platform on the front?

     (add the http:// in of course)

          • Definiion of Black Friday according to investopedia:

            “this is the day in which retail stores have enough sales to put them “in the black” – an accounting expression that alludes to the practice of recording losses in red and profits in black.”

            It’s difficult to see how lower margins and lower aggregate profits is not a Retail Disaster. But, whatever.

            • helot/clark: The Christmas Shopping Season may well be a disaster by the time it is over …. in January!!! But it is way too soon to make that determination.

              A number of people here like to jump to conclusions prematurely, in support of their personal bias’ without the facts and a clear understanding of the situation in front of them; whether it is BJ assuming the cop was guilty before the forensics and ballistics were published; or Net Ranger supporting Rancher Bundy without a true legal understanding of Ranching in the West.

              I prefer to wait until the facts and the data is in before rushing to judgement. 🙂

          • Why is every day opposite day? Where the heck do they find those people?

            Our economy is getting so strong, that in a few years, people won’t need to shop for Christmas at all!

        • ZH is a ConOp and is well regulated. Believe what you want, but understand what it is.

          Who [i]is[/i] Tyler Durden? Do you know? Do you have reason to trust them to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

          • Tyler Durden is the name of a character in the movie Fight Club. ZeroHedge uses the name for nearly all of its posted news reporters. But, usually, once you click on the article, the byline tells you where the story originally came from. Mac, Michael Snyder, Brendan (who last name I’m drawing a blank on… senior moment, sorry), and a number of others. But there are also those Tyler Durdens who aren’t as recognizable. Some go by numbers, others by names of bloggers I just don’t follow.

            I think it was Wikipedia that explained ZeroHedge best. Wikipedia gives a good account of Drudge Report, too.

            • Thanks, but you really have no idea what you’re talking about outside of what you read on Wiki (lol – we are doomed) and the few clicks you made to ZH.

              And, it’s ‘Brandon’ – Smith.

              • Ah. Brandon. My bad. I was confusing him with a guy I work with, who spells his own name the way I had it.

          • You are so right. Better to trust CNN, ABC (the All Barack Channel) The View, NBC (Nothing but Communists) and all the other Edward Bernays acolytes. Thanks for the helpful post.

        • Wow Mac, You beat me to it. I was going to post these numbers. I hear some In-Store sales at some retailers were down 20% or more year over year. Looks like your Sheeple Stampede article reached far and wide.

          I think people are Flat-Ass Broke and barely paying their bills. And the Market Manipulators said that lower gas prices should boost Holiday sales by Billions. Time will tell.


          • WWTI – low gas prices help, but the poor are often in debt to friends and family. Low gas prices will leave some much needed cash in everyone’s pockets at the end of the month. The first place the excess must go is debts public and private. It could be six months before people start feeling secure enough to change spending habits. By then Obama-Care kicks in and they’ll be broke again.

            ObamaCare is costing a fortune and generally denying healthcare! This is starting to make the lousy healthcare the VA dispenses look good!

            This healthcare system is looking like a soviet state style bureaucracy where you will spend your life in lines, filling out forms just to find the store shelves are empty when you finally get let in!

          • If, and it’s a big “IF”, anyone is saving any money by the reduced prices at the pumps, then it is put into the ever rising cost of home heating/electric/gas.

            Those utility costs haven’t, nor ever will, drop.
            Grocery store items that are price reduced, are so because of “over stock”, and year/season end clearances.

            Prices on the regular items will not come down, well except for bulk, high production produce items like potatoes. Walmarket is selling Idaho spuds… 20 lbs. for $5.98. You can’t grow the darn things that cheap, unless you are doing it all without using a gasoline engine.

        • I’m not buying anything because I DONT HAVE MONEY TO SPEND!

      2. “From Hardscrabble Farmer:

        You build a society that is at once both obsessed with material goods and the means with which to acquire them. You then make it next to impossible for vast numbers of them to ever achieve those ends, carefully construct, enforce and repeat a narrative that tells them the reason for their failure to attain those goals is the fault of a group of people who are readily identifiable and who already express a desire to avoid them, thus reinforcing the narrative. You simultaneously militarize the law enforcement while celebrating criminality via media/video games/music. Add generous amounts of mind altering drugs both legal and illicit, bump the population to ungovernable levels made up of multiple hostile ethnic tribal groups, ratchet up external anxieties over fabricated boogieman type threats, force the majority of the population into close confines, indoctrinate their children with mindless drivel and falsehoods, make them dependent upon nutritionally empty and chemically altered foodstuffs…

        What could possibly go wrong?”

        hat tip TheBurningPlatform

        • amen Satori


        • Satori, that’s the best description I’ve seen yet of the situation this country is in. What could go wrong? EVERYTHING, as far as I’m concerned.

        • You guys see any benefit to Armscor being so much cheaper, is it worth the savings or just cheap junk?

          I was looking at .308 for $12.97 a box of 20 FMJ

          • haven’t had any problems shooting armscor, i like them just fine. though i prefer pmc.

          • For range ammo it’s fine. I’ll shoot just about anything. I run a POF and a Sig 716 both in 7.62×51 and run Tulla steel case through them all day. $9.00 a box of 20 at Wal-Mart. I’ve ran a 1000 rounds of Armscor easily. I can’t recall any issues. I won’t bet my life on it. I save the Federal 168gr match for that.

            Keep your head on a swivel people.

            • price might have something to do with whether its reloadable or not.. I’ve never had a problem with any brand but I prefer to use ammo that can be reloaded since I and a buddy do reload.

        • well said satori

      3. Only if such purchasing prevention can be organized and being halted using a well defined plan, the corrupt banksters system will collapse without a show being fired.

        • WOOO HOOO!

          Silver and gold down some more tonight. Silver down to $16.71 a round (100 or more), $16?? something for a hundred dollar face value bag of silver. And $1186 a round for gold.

          • $100 FV 90% silver $1322 Free Shipping. Trekker Out.

            • What website?

            • Would love to get in on that deal!

          • Last night silver was in the mid $14’s/OZ….Gold was $1,122

            • Too bad it didn’t last……oh well the spread isn’t that much. But when your trying to save everything you can, the pennies start to add up.

              Apmex has gold at $1222.70 & silver at $16.71 now.

            • TO LATE today Gold is up $56.48 and Silver is up $1.17 $100FV now $1422 JM BUllion. Trekker Out.

          • Apmex has a $100 face value bag of silver quarters for $1,442.30, or $1,393.53 if you can wire the money instead of using a credit card. They are out of rolls of quarters.

            • We are now several dollars below where AG (silver) producers break even, and a couple hundred for AU. Gotta love them thar evil banksters. Let’s see them make all their solar units with PAPER silver.

              Intelligent people should be loading up with both hands both AU and AG, just as Russia and China are doing. Heck, even the Dutch just repatriated a big chunk of their gold. I’m surprised they weren’t stiffed like the Germans. But even if the Dutch were stiffed, and no gold was available anywhere, that would just be “reason” for the price to drop more, no doubt.

              • It was only a few years ago, silver was at $5-7 an oz. Love to see it hit that again.

      4. Sales are down because more people have to work the retail jobs where people go to shop on Black Friday. More people (seasonal helpers) working, less money being spent.

        You see what I just did there? I pulled a theory out of my bum and twisted it to the point some thought it was actually true.

        • First paragraph I was thinking “Oh bullshit, what’s this guy thinking?”

          Second paragraph I was smiling with a chuckle.

        • Actually My wife did clerk at a retail clothing store on Friday & Saturday. And She didn’t purchase anything.

      5. Gun sales were great on Black Friday, What does that say?

        • I think it said that the “irrational exuberance” voiced in Ferguson was a wake up call for Americans sitting on the fence.

          You should have all of the metal you need by now. Buy food. Buy ammo. They won’t be making anymore of it after the Changes. 🙁

          • I get the feeling that you are the lone wolf type.

            You will die. Alone and cold. Surrounded by your “metals”.

            USA, USA, USA!

            Erhmagawd amiright?

            • Townsaver: My group is “staffed” with Vietnam Combat Vets, and family members of which there are two LEO’s. Yes, I will die. We all die eventually. I do not fear death. It is one of Life’s few constants.

              I have lived a long life. I have been to the mountaintop and I have seen the promised land. Everyone should be so lucky!!! 🙂

              • Yes but I do fear for WWTI. The whirlwind is in the thorn trees: When The Man Comes Around. Trekker Out.

                • MT, Why should you fear for anything? Sounds cowardly.

                  I feel you are freezing your butt off up there. It was Sunny 80+ degs here yesterday in FL, in shorts and flip flops, finishing building a 6+ ft privacy fence & locking gate. Another side of the compound secure. All done!!

                  Tell us about your big horns? What are they doing?

                  • WWTI I guess cowardly is in the eye of the beholder. Anywho, as for the bighorns, I haven’t been out yet today, but from where I’m at, I can see one of the Rams is still around and I’m sure the other one is still around but he must be in a different meadow. Trekker Out.

                    • I guess hunting them on the side of the mountain then getting a shot off, and then try to get them down off the cliff is a challenge eh?

                      Toss out a few bales of hay, and coax them down. Here Billy Billy!!

                    • Unfortunately tags are very limited and I’ll most likely not draw one in my lifetime. Last year I helped Game&Fish in a trapping program and they did put out hay to trap them, but as fate would have it, the day before they were set to trap a big snow came in and the temp dropped to 30 below and the sheep holed up for the 3 day project, only caught 20 or so sheep. Trekker Out

              • Were all going to die eventually,
                Its how we lived that matters, at least to ourselves it does, you or i can only control what we ourselves do, nobody else.

                • Kula – Bad News – Headline: Corrupt Federal Judge Rules Against Big Island Anti-GMO Law, Maui Next

                  Hawaii Federal Judge, Barry Kurren (and his wife) have deep ties with Monsanto, Dow, and Big Ag. The judge has recently overturned a democratically voted initiative to limit GMOs on the Big Island of Hawaii. Without an upswelling of public pressure, he’ll do it again in Maui. – See more at:

                  • I have no doubt he will rule against these initiatives, i told people that from the get go, but they said Maui is different, only difference i see is we got more blind dummies, the only way to change whats going on with the GMO thing is to swap out the feds, the biggest problem with that is the judges and legislators who would rule in favor of the people are far left, so we are all screwed either way, so all these initiatives and laws are accomplishing is wasting tax dollars that would be better spent on other stuff, not litigation.

                    • I think opening the door to these GMO’s will just destroy the purity of the island plants. And you know damn well those germination pollen will carry everywhere. That’s what Monsanto does, is sue little farmers that have the genetic DNA cross bred by mistake, as they claim it is trademark or patent infringement unpaid for. And the pollen could contaminate a neighboring field. The little guy should be suing Monsanto for that. The world is going to hell, polluted by Manipulative Big Corporations with Frankenstein GMO seeds.

                • Everybody should read this short poem:

                  ht tp://

                  I went to a biker funeral Saturday, and one of the people who got up to speak paraphrased the poem.

            • Come on Townsaver, you don’t have to project your own insecurities here.

        • Blackjack:

          Give a gun, the gift that keeps on giving.

      6. Sorry but I can get 20-40% off anytime. The sales this year are a joke. Yet Bestbuy was still packed at 11:00pm Thanksgiving night.

        Let them eat cake I guess.

        Amazon gave me my 3rd Prime trial in less than 2 years. So I bought shit that I needed and they can pay for 2 day shipping (Cue 80 pound generator – 2nd day delivery for free… win!). Screw the madness in the stores.

        I told the wife to go spend $200.00 online, getting the “Black Friday” deals. Normally, that would have been spent in 2.2 seconds. She spent $40.00 and said everything else we can get locally.

        The rope is unraveling. We knew this. Hopeful to see others waking as well. Hope they get up to speed quickly.

        Happy Holidays everyone. Sorry for the constant sarcasm and negativity. I hate this time of year.

        • This weekend I got 100% off. Since I did not participate in the Black Friday Sheeple Chase.

          • Nice!

        • Townsaver, I also feel the same way. I lost my wife around this time in 1981, so it’s never a good time of year for me. I don’t even go into any stores on Black Friday. It’s not worth what you have to go through. All I get during the holiday period are my normal prep supplies that I get all year long. I don’t want any gadgets, etc.

          • In the past for Holidays, I’ve gone out shopping for a new girlfriend. lol The Good ones you may only see once a year, or in the grocery store about 5pm. Thats when the professional working Babes are in there at about that time, hunting for dinner. Check out the deli or wine isle section about that time. And strike up a conversation and suggest you get together sometime ans swap digits.

            Oh, another great place is Target Store. Not sure why but lots of hotties at Target. Roam around the ladies make up section, and ask them what their favorite color of toothbrush is that they like? Then grab a few in that color, and say if you need an extra one, I got ya covered.

            As a Prepper, I have saved the day many of times on my boat, when I have extra tampons for the women. Show them you are thinking about them and they will Luv you up dearly.

            Just a few Holiday thoughts. WWTI

      7. I am continually amazed at how stupid these so-called experts are. They can take their spin b.s. and do you know what with it.

      8. I maintain till this day, there HAS NEVER been anything on sale during the Christmas season. Nothing. Nada. Zip.

        Any price discounts one sees is a mechanism to clear old inventory that has accumulated whose losses have already been factored in to corporate earnings. Anything sold during this season on sale is pure profit for the retailers.

        If there were any true sales discounts, there would be a more ugly encompassing characteristic to the overall economy….DEFLATION.

        And the funny thing is…that in a period of deflation, no one would have the capital to take advantage of the discounts. It would become a downward price war.

        Sheep unable to graze at the annual fake sales are a necessary precursor to the death spiral….the IMF re-evaluation of the default basket of currencies that comprise the Special Drawing Right in 2015 will have a lot to say about the pace of refactoring of the American Economy in preparation for the mass influx of low skilled immigration labor.

        • With most products now outsourced to overseas factories, the scope of profitability on each product is vast. This means retailers have a wide margin of error to work with when it comes to price discovery. They do not start making a loss these days until it is discounted by 75% or more.

          Throw in things like just-in-time delivery, computers logging demand, and it would take a pretty screwed up retailer to make a serious loss.

          I think what we are seeing has more to do with how people are paid these days. Many now receive their payments in a haphazard fashion. Clients hold back payments for much of the year; large organizations do not pay their contract staff until close to the end of the calendar year. This messes with consumption patterns since people have to hold back and hunker down now for 8 to 10 months before they have enough of a surplus to make a purchase. All by design since the focus is now on directing the produced commodities towards consumers in Asia. As this ramps up, North American consumers just will not be that important.

          I always advise people to buy and spend local. If there is not much available local, then start with what is there: a hipster girl who makes cupcakes, a dude who makes hats, and save and invest the rest of your money. Live frugally and you will be happier and wealthier.

        • President Obama is off to Ferguson, to meet with Black Leaders, to get to the bottom of all this Racial Tension. lol LMFAO!!! Just look in the Mirror Race Baiting jackass. There you go!!

          I predict, Obama will give another Hundred Million of our tax dollars to his Brothers Keeper Program.

          How about Obama go to Chicago where 250 kids were killed(75% Black) since Thief Thug Mikey Brown was justifiably taken out by the Hero Cop.

          And you Never heard once Obama giving praise or condolences to the Cop Daren Wilson’s family. Obama is a Proven Race Baiter. Yes I hope Blacks Boycott all Businesses. It will be nice going out again without any hoodies lurking.

      9. So people didnt buy enough foreign (Chinese) products that they dont need, with money they dont have. This consumer based economic system is built on the very foundations of your dollar……nothing at all

      10. Wife and I went to Target on Friday afternoon to scope out some Christmas lights and I was shocked how empty the store was. No more crowded than a normal Thursday night. The cheap cheap stuff had been pawed over but most other junk was still on the shelves. Big change from even two years ago.

      11. I buy local as much as possible ! I do not shop on the Black Friday sales ect, just plain silliness about it all makes me just shake my head in amazement of the sheepishness of the people that do. Honey got his Christmas present yesterday, two beagle pups from good hunting stock, he’s a happy man right now! God bless ya’ll and merry Christmas ! Keep preppin!

        • How wonderful, MommaD.

          There is none better than little beagle puppies. I know. i used to raise/train and sell them in the early eighties.

          Giving things that matter and are useful, that give enjoyment is what counts.

          I believe 80 to 90 % of asian made items are bought and junked in no time and most stuff is just that….stuff people like and want, but don’t really need. Just more shit to clutter up their lives.

          We give clothes that are practical, to all the big kids/teenagers, and no more toy/dolls-stuffed animal crap.

          Adults get foodstuffs. Period.

          • Passin, the kids are grown and all get bags of fresh meat for Christmas, hogs go the first week of dec every year, they love it! Nice to know I’m not alone! And yep, beagles are great, these two are nine weeks old and eager to learn. Cute little fellers too

            • Cute’r than a blue ticked Beagle pup pulling a tiny red wagon.

      12. So, if Black Friday sales go through the roof, it’s because the world is falling into a cesspool of shallow consumerism and doomed to hell. If sales are down, the economy is collapsing and the world is going to hell.

        So….please tell me: Is there any information that you WON’T spin into further “evidence” that the S is hitting the F?

      13. “Blames Shopping Fiasco On “Stronger Economy””


        yeah yeah yeah,, believe at your own peril .. some people will accept any pile of bullshit spread on their future graves

      14. Holiday Sales, Just more Chinese Produced Trinket Consumerism. Lets see what the excuse will be for Cyber Monday Sales?

        Sony Pictures had 4 Movie Films Hacked and stolen, before they even hit the Theater. The films were already downloaded like a Billion times overseas. Hows that for a punch in the Belly. One of the Movies was about trying to “Assassinate the Leader of Korea.” Karma’s a Bitch eh?

        • Save your money and buy few but buy well. There is the Shinola brand that makes watches and bikes in Detroit. They would be a good company to support. I found some great clothing retailers in Williamsburg that make all there stuff in the US. Sure, you might not have a new suit for every day at work, but what you have will be well made and supporting the local economy. Who wants to live somewhere surrounded by poor people and people on welfare while some tycoon in Hong Kong chortles in his bowl of soup? Support the people with get-up-and-go in your local areas.

          • If you want a good suit that’s made in America, look for Hardwick. They are made by Americans in a factory in eastern Tennessee. I think they may be the last tailored suit manufacturer left in the U.S.

      15. January will tell you how bad things are. There will be very week sales and nobody will have money to pay Christmas bills. I see small businesses going under on a daily basis and large ones too. Save your money and buy preps, those will count.

        • Jim in Va.

          I agree. Good advice. For those looking for some preps, many preparedness sites have special sales today.

          I do think there is an atmosphere of economic uncertainty that more people can feel. Health insurance will see price hikes in 2015. Utility and food prices continue to rise. There are also thousands of pending layoffs for those in the computer industry (including Microsoft, HP, Cisco, and others) and technical fields.

          Many businesses (large and small) are already struggling. I believe we will see additional businesses closing in January. If you get a gift card at Christmas, use it soon.

        • Something Wrong? Layoffs Explode In America’s Big Old Tech

          “…the computer industry which includes permanent layoff queen HP; it layered another 5,000 job cuts on top of the 16,000 it had announced earlier in the year, and on top of the tens of thousands it had announced in prior years.

          The segment also includes Microsoft which is now implementing its own mega job cuts. In October, the segment announced 6,509 job cuts for a total so far this year of 55,511. That’s up 92% from a year ago!
          The electronics industry – Cisco among them – announced 1,648 job cuts for the month, bringing them to 18,153 year-to-date. Up a stunning 136%!

          The telecommunications industry – which includes money-losing Sprint, now 80% owned by SoftBank of Japan – announced 5,217 job cuts for the month, which brought the year-to-date total to 20,038. Up 81% from the same period last year.

          All three tech segments combined clocked in with 13,374 job cuts in October and 93,702 for the year so far. Up 97% from the same period last year!

          That’s more than just the routine tweaking of the work force, where some people get laid off in one area of the company and other people get hired elsewhere.

          This time it’s serious. And they’re all doing it: Microsoft (18,000), layoff-meister HP (21,000), Cisco (6,000), Intel (5,350), Sprint (2000 on top of the 5,000 by which it already reduced its workforce so far this year), TI (1,100), Dell (1,000), EMC (1,000)…”


      16. speaking of gun sales

        So why does the government get to dictate if you pass their qualifications to exercise a right they have no authority to keep you from in the first place?.. replace the second amendment with any other.. how would you feel if you had to have a background check in order to enforce your fourth amendment rights which prevent police from freely entering your house and taking what they want?

        no background checks for any constitutionally protected right

        • So why does the government get to dictate if you pass their qualifications to exercise a right? For the same reason you have to have a photo ID and a permit before you can purchase a pencil in order to exercise your First Amendment right… oh, wait…

          • And sadly, many supposedly “awake” preppers here support this kind of shit in one fashion or another.

        • Maybe Check out some Amish Communities for Gifts. They are incredible Wood Craftsmen. Also check out Amish grocery stores. All really good products and fresh cheese to die for.

          • I like doing shopping on Lehmans,
            They got all sorts of old timey stuff

        • Speaking of guns…

          After speaking with some friends from NYS, the gun grab in NYS is NOT only in Buffalo, NY.

          The police in other counties of NY are also cross checking the obituaries with the registered gun owners lists. The police are confiscating guns from the family of the deceased, if they do not have gun permits.

          • yep like as been said so many times
            Registration leads to confiscation ..PERIOD!

            all my firearms are investments and owed to my family,, they aint getting them for nothing when I die and all my kids and wife have been told

            they all got sold the week before daddy died , and no we dont know who bought them sorry

            they lie to us every day, just repaying the favor .. and because they are such assholes about it.. my own idea will allow my family members a lot of unregistered arms ,, as it should be .. and as it will be

            F you Government

      17. True story:

        Was at a wally world yesterday for the first time in about a week. Conditions were just the usual, normal, Sunday afternoon busy. (I try, assiduously, to avoid going there on weekends, especially on Sunday afternoons.) On the way to the exit, an obviously upper middle class mother and teenage daughter had stopped with their cart smack dab in front of the exit door, almost entirely blocking the access to the door. They were gathering their purchases so as to leave their cart inside the store instead of wheeling their purchases to their vehicle inside a cart. As we and others approached the exit door and found them hindering access, the mother began repeating, “Sorry. Sorry…” She was pretending to care that she was significantly inconveniencing other shoppers and pretending to be apologetic. There wasn’t a sincere bone in her body. Her teenage daughter remained silent. Only after satisfying themselves at the expense of close to a dozen other people, did they finally move out of the way and proceed out of the store with their purchases.

        It was disappointing to see such callous, self-serving behavior from a member of the upper class, who, intuition dictates, should be setting an example and demonstrating much better breeding and consideration of others.

        I have seen an over-the-hill bar fly with an apparently ex-boxer husband demonstrate better and more sincere manners in a public setting than these two twits.

        If this Snooty Suburban Sally is the best this country can produce for future leadership by the better educated class, then we are in worse trouble than I feared.

        Please, people, get your acts together and show some class. Be considerate, be kind, be courteous, be responsible, be honorable, and be strong. We are going to need every ounce of character we can muster if we are going to truly put this country back on track.

        • We are creating a nation of self-absorbed sociopaths (including several in my own family). I weight lift, and go into a community location to do so. I routinely see people hogging a certain machine, sitting there – if you can believe this – reading their cell phone – for 5 – 10 minutes, while oblivious to everyone else around. Staggering. I once asked an older guy politely “Are you done yet?? and he snarked some snotty response back. Yes, I refrained from smacking him physically or verbally, but it took some doing. Small issue, minor point – but INDICATIVE of the “me first” generation. At some point these small indicators will all total up to something very, very bad.

          • True hardship will cure that “self-absorbed sociopaths” problem real fast.

            It’ll be painful on a personal level, no doubt, but in the long run they all will be better off shedding that narcissism.

            The whole crux of the matter is that this country has had it so good for so long, and during that time, more and more influences have come into our society that relieves the individual of responsibility. Examples: (A)video screens built into the seats of family vehicles so that kids can passively watch a boob tube instead looking out the window, playing counting games, talking with their parents, indulging in deep thought and imagination, reading, coloring, or otherwise using their brains actively. It absolves the parents of engaging with their kids, giving them attention, supervising them, or actively teaching them in a relatively relaxed family setting. (B) Reliance on GPS gadgets on a daily personal basis instead of learning to use a paper — and often much more accurate — map. What happens when the satellite connection doesn’t work, or the programming sends them into a ditch instead of to their destination? (C) Brackets included with new kitchen ranges to bolt the stove to the wall, to prevent a child from tipping the stove over onto themselves. What happened to parents watching their children, checking on them, and teaching them not to play with a stove? (D) Signs in retail store entrances reminding parents not to leave their small children unattended in their vehicle. The preponderance of daycare has done tremendous damage to far too many parents’ sense of parental responsibility for their children. They literally have become accustomed to farming out and forgetting about their kids 5 days a week, all day, such that when the weekend arrives, they must snap back into responsibility for the kids for two full days, and far too many are finding that onerous.

            The examples go on and on.

            The pacification of the U.S. has been successful. It will take a profound reversal to repair the damage and restore good sense, good judgment, and good behavior.

            Do your part in your own way to fight the trend and maintain traditional, conventional norms and standards. Don’t let Obama’s communists win.

            • Well said. As a homeschool family I cannot count how many times over 14 years I have been told “I couldn’t be with my kids all the time, they drive me crazy”. Always, as in EVERY SINGLE TIME their child(ren) are feral, because mom and dad have never taught them how to exert any self control. These parents are gonna, some day, fully release that child onto the rest of us and the hell that ensues is not gonna be pleasant.

              Not long ago, an older couple from another ‘sister’ church visited our parish. During the potluck the lady commented over and over how well behaved the children all were through the service (only an hour, not much) and she had never seen that. She was surprised to find all us ladies and girls included the dreaded teenage girls (ours are really not to be dreaded) talking about how much applesauce we canned and pies we froze after a Saturday morning apple picking together at one of the local orchards. We were just swapping methods, etc. but she couldn’t wrap her mind around this because she hadn’t heard talk like that since she was a girl. The kicker is she attends a similar parish!

              Over the recent years I have listened to couples say they don’t want kids and you know what, I agree that is a great idea especially if they are the ‘typical’ couple…dual income, self absorbed, GAMERS, often like to smoke a little weed. I used to implore people to ‘have children’. Not anymore, we have too many worthless, lazy, gimmiedats in this country. Let’s leave the breeding to those who are using their heads to really make good choices. I know that is really harsh, but I finally see the wisdom in keeping my mouth shut about how great family life is to those who will never really beable to put aside their own desires for the benefit of their family & community.

      18. Off topic but has to do with SHTF
        Its amazing how the weather just keeps bypassing the food producing areas of the west coast and SW USA.
        The satellite image i loop most often quite consistently shows nothing of substance in the way of rainfall anywhere it is needed in Ca or SW Az.
        I think the collapse of food production and lack of water will be what pushes the bus over the edge

        • I don’t think we’ll run out of food. There may be some high prices on vegetables that are mostly grown in California at present. Small farmers in NC have been switching from tobacco to vegetables as it becomes more profitable. If California farming fails, then the larger farmers in NC will also switch to vegetables. They will grow what they can make money on. Right now they’re growing wheat, corn, soybeans, peanuts, and cotton. They have been rotating between those crops, mostly based on potential profit. In some parts of eastern NC, there are large farms growing potatoes and cabbage. You should drive by a cabbage field after harvest. It smells like a Weyerhaeuser pulp mill.

          I believe the eastern half of the U.S. will eventually grow enough food that we won’t miss California.

          • I agree, Archivist. Prices may get pushed up a bit short term, but producers will adjust. On this site, and others like it, I think it’s important to try to discriminate what are true threats vs. what are highly improbable. No problems dealing with the highly improbables, just don’t want to spend undue amount of time on them.

          • And with obolas new beaner friendly directives theres no shortage of workers there.
            One thing i have found from being directly involved in agriculture is that plowable land doesnt mean you can grow everything there, and then there is the little detail of ability, just because you can grow 2000 acres of corn doesnt mean you are able to grow 2000 acres of broccoli.
            One farm i know that shut down grew lettuce, they dont have enough water now, 1200 acres, they have a huge processing/packing facility, you could never duplicate their production without this facility, almost anyone can grow lettuce, but can they rinse and pack and refrigerate and then transport it? The back end costs huge dollar amounts, these are the things that will doom the migration of production.

            • None of the farmers I know here process their own produce. They aren’t large enough to think about doing that. For example, cotton is trucked to centrally located cotton gins. The corn, wheat, soybeans, peanuts, potatoes, and cabbage are trucked away to be processed.

              Cabbage isn’t washed and packaged, so I don’t see why lettuce would have to be. Consumers could wash it themselves like they used to. Pre-washed and cut-up salad greens is a relatively new development. A cabbage grower could just as easily grow lettuce if there’s a good market for it.

              Most vegetables can be picked mechanically, meaning immigrant farm workers aren’t used much here. I, personally, have never seen a Mexican in a field. The ones we have here are in construction and landscaping. When I was growing up, the field across from my home was planted in cucumbers. They were harvested by machine. This was back in the 1960s. Around here, many farmers were burned in the 1970s trying to buy all their own harvesting equipment. Now the larger farmers buy equipment and share (for a price) with all the others.

              I know one larger farmer who buys only John Deere. He owns a lot of equipment and is proud of it. He gathers them all in one place every spring and takes a “family” photo of them.

              • Thats a good one “family photo” can relate,
                Beans and peas can be mechanically harvested, spinach and some greens as well, lettuce is generally harvested into big tubs then taken and hydro cooled, then boxed, but you do need refrigeration for most veggies, and small growers can only do so much even with equipment.
                There is potential for sure, depends if folks are willing, i know a lot of farmers who are just dialing it back, tired of the government and the stores making all the money while they get all the risk and headaches.

          • In Spain they have covered a entire desert thousands of acres in greenhouses . Each greenhouse is about a hundred acres. they grow vegatables with Hydro ponics chemicals & water that is recycled. they ship worldwide.

          • Boy, that will be poetic justice! We grow enough in Ohio for our own needs and could ramp it up enough to have an excess to sell. However, I have no idea how or to whom you would sell it on a commercial scale. Roadside stands are minimal income and maximum output. Am so glad Appalachia may rise again and California take a huge fall.

            • Vicky, I know here you can directly to the local IGA type grocery stores that are locally owned because it’s produce it falls under agricultural and your not bothered with all the licenses that are with other retail items, something to thinks about, most stores here love advertising locally grown things. Good luck!

        • We’ve had some rain in central Ca. It is still nothing like we need but it is good to have it and I am praying for lots more.

      19. We’ll know more about the shopping season after cyber monday. That may be the reason for in store declines. Also, who wants to battle those black friday crowds anyhow. Parking, crowding etc. Christmas shopping in the stores use to be an enjoyable experience. Not so much anymore.

      20. And I’m SURE the “Yes we can/Yes we have no bananas” chanters believe every word of this absurd report.

      21. The rise of Happy Holidays and the demise of Merry Christmas has put a damper on people’s enthusiasm to go the extra shopping mile for Christmas. Most people cannot afford a vacation, let alone a happy vacation (“holiday”). I stopped buying-strong for Happy Holiday a long time ago. It is an absurd statement and sentiment. For those who fought so long and hard to remove Merry Christmas from the universal lexicon – congrats, you have won and hopefully as you gain even greater ascendancy only the pews will remind us of what we lost in your rush to destroy an ancient and wonderful tradition.

      22. If we chuckle at the Indians selling Manhattan for 20-30 bucks of trinkets, the Chinese must be doubled over in laughter at the trillions we spend on their junk trinkets. Not to mention the farmed shrimp that live off of bird droppings and antibiotics.

        • The Chinese are trading items of tangible value for high quality printed pictures of historical figures on very high quality paper and they have no idea who these people are they are. Daily they loose value while the manufacturer of said paper with picture continue to make more and more of them.

          China has a dilemma. How do I rid myself of these pieces of paper and simultaneously retain the value as best as possible on the remainder that I hold?

          Post August 1971 we snookered the world when we abandoned Bretton Woods.

      23. Credit cards that are not going to be paid off and government checks keep the phony economy going. It’s over. Just takes awhile to keel over.

      24. @ Kula… agree. Most people do not have a idea how big CA farms are/were. The numbers dont lie. Perfect weather, very long growing season, and fertile soil. There will be a shortage and super high prices. For example, price almonds and walnuts, they have already tripled in price. Plus there are 7+ billion people now and alot are mooselimbs who produce nothing but co2.

        • Here in eastern NC I have my own walnut trees. Have you seen how much black walnuts sell for nowadays? We don’t like black walnuts, so we sell ours. We will be supplying a local restaurant this season, so the chef can make cakes, etc. We can undercut the store prices because of no overhead. The trees were here already, and we don’t advertise. Packaging is cheap plastic baggies. The labor is free because we hull, crack, and pick out the walnuts only when we would otherwise be idle.

          • Is there such a thing as a hand cranked walnut / pecan cleaning machine like a cotton gin?

            • Black walnuts are a tough nut to crack. Ha, ha!

              They don’t have a relatively thin shell containing a nut meat that you might have a chance of shelling in one piece, such as English walnuts or pecans have. The black walnut is like a solid ball of wood with little cavities distributed through it containing small pieces of nut meat. You have to use a hammer on a concrete block to bust it open. Then you have to pick out the little pieces with picking tools. It’s a tedious process that I can’t imagine being automated soon.

              theworldsbestnutcracker (dot) com sells a hand-cranked nutcracker that will handle walnuts and pecans. It doesn’t pick out the meats; it just cracks all the nuts really quickly.

              I did find a video where a guy built a black walnut cracker out of scrap steel:
              ht tps://

              • I know the wood from the black walnut is a real desirable wood and will fetch a pretty penny if its got any figure in it, ie curly or crotch grain,

              • It seems that if the shells were sufficiently broken one could put them in a rotating cylinder with small holes on a downward slant with a similar principle in separating gold from rock. The heaver “meat” drops out while the shells keep traveling and come out the end. The spoils would still need to be picked through but a lot of the tedious process may be alleviated.

                Just an idea.

                A blight in about 1920 or so took out most of the black walnut in the NJ, Pa / De area (and possibly further). The trees are rare where they were once common.

        • Dave, you make good comparisons with the hot air producing mooselimbs. About 3.5 billion co2 producers, includes, the hind-doots and boo dah tits, also.

          Jesus H. Christ is the “only way” out, or better said, only way into the eternity.

          Learn and live it now, or later. later, will be too late for some.


        • Dave before retirement I was a engineer on the railroad for 36 years and hauled a lot of grian back in Missourah, and I realize grain such as corn, wheat and soybeans are not the same as the Produce that comes out of CA. and I saw a lot of bumper crop years, but the point I’m getting to is, one of my friends that was a conductor and still lives back there told me a few days ago, he had never seen so much grain. He said the elevators are all full and hugh piles are piled up on the ground in every rural town. So I’m sure many of the other Agricultural States have the same (problem) if we could call that a problem. So I guess the only thing we can do to correct our trade imbalance with China is to export our food to them so we can buy more of their Junk. Trekker Out.

        • Thats what goes on over here, people have no clue, over 80% of all food is imported, people whine and complain that we need to grow more locally but they dont want to pay and then they want certified organic at conventional prices,
          Is total BS, they will find out the hard way real soon

      25. Economists and politicians often say people aren’t spending because they lack “consumer confidence”. What pap! I’ve not once had to put something back on the shelf because I didn’t have the confidence to buy it, but I have had to put things back on the shelf because I didn’t have the money.

      26. The Working Poor: Welcome to Walmart!

        “For the Privileged (especially those near the very top); life is a never-ending gravy-train. Their incomes soar higher and higher and higher – at a rate never before seen in our society. Their wealth soars higher and higher and higher – at a rate never before seen in our society.”

        “Conversely; life for the “low social class”, the Serfs, is entirely opposite in every respect. Their standard of living falls lower and lower and lower – having collapsed by more than 50% since 1970”

        “The lying politicians, lying bankers, and lying media tell all of the Serfs and the Homeless that this is “the New Normal”: their lives are supposed to get worse and worse and worse every year (while the lives of the Privileged get better and better and better). There’s “no money” to pay the Serfs a fair, livable wage claim the corporate Robber Barons.

        Another lie. While Serf incomes remain permanently frozen (and their standard of living spirals relentlessly lower); corporate profits for U.S. corporations have more than doubled since 2000. This isn’t “normal”; it’s simple, economic rape: the Rich stealing from the (Working) Poor day after day, every day or their lives. How successful have they been with this stealing? The “Poor” used to be the Middle Class.”

        and just in case anyone hasn’t figured it out
        WE are the serfs

      27. I knew the government numbers of record holiday spending this season were wrong and to prove it I went shopping over the wkend. The stores had only a few shoppers, and one store owner gave me discounts to buy more it was so bad, and I paid in cash.

        Most of the holiday spending will be on credit cards that won’t be paid back. On line shopping will incur a lot of this debt today. We are right where we were back in 2008.

      28. I did’nt spend a penny. I was hoping others would do the same. Make them lower their prices from grossly escalated numbers. I looked through all the Thanksgiving and black friday ads, these prices are not deals by any stretch of the imagination. Besides a few cheap TV’s that will probably burn out in a year, everything else was jacked up in price. Who want’s or needs this garbage? I hope the Christmas spending is way down. Give these retail thieves a taste of their own medicine. Make them lower the prices and they will. This goes for auto’s also, these vehicles cost three and more times the price of a house a few decades back. Don’t buy anything!

      29. I did’nt spend a penny. I was hoping others would do the same. Make them lower their prices from grossly escalated numbers. I looked through all the Thanksgiving and black friday ads, these prices are not deals by any stretch of the imagination. Besides a few cheap TV’s that will probably burn out in a year, everything else was jacked up in price. Who want’s or needs this garbage? I hope the Christmas spending is way down. Give these retail thieves a taste of their own medicine. Make them lower the prices and they will. This goes for auto’s also, these vehicles cost three and more times the price of a house a few decades back. Don’t buy anything!

      30. I only pushed submit once, why the double post? Sorry!

      31. I wonder how the guns, ammo, and prepper stores did. Might be a good thing people bought less big screen tv’s.

      32. Just checked out my favorite gun shop on line. Seems that they are running a “special” on Smith 9mm pistols. Given the storm clouds which are gathering fast, one can’t have enough 9mm pistols, or AR’s either.

        Check out the first article at “American Thinker site” today. Author claims that the Communists are using Ferguson as a training ground for a future (Big Ugly) civil/race war.

        FYI: I got blocked out of American Thinker 4 years ago for suggesting that a Civil War was coming. HOW TIMES HAVE CHANGED!

      33. My family no longer exchanges gifts for holidays, birthdays, etc. We have no interest in being “consumers”.

      34. Its no surprise they are blaming the poor sales on a strong economy. If the sales where good they would credit it to a strong economy also. It works the same for their globull warming myth. If it is record heat they blame globull warming. if its record cold they still blame globull warming? Facts & the truth don’t matter to them.

        • That is precisely the problem.

          Globull cooling. With fuel oil and propane/natural gas, along with the highest electricity costs on record, folks anin’t got $$ to waste/spend on more Chinese crap.

          They are wondering how the phuck are we gonna pay last years property taxes and keep warm this winter.

          Millions fall into this category.

      35. Another factor in the demise of the joy and energy around Christmas is the rising Muslim population. Where I live, most of the women are now Muslim and wear the full hijab when they go out. Christmas just ain’t their thing. The black garb is also kind of spooky and depressing and is a nice counter to the frivolity and bright jolly colors of Christmas.

        You have to be careful who you say Christmas greetings to because you can be charged for discrimination. ‘Happy holidays’ is the safest bet. On the plus side, it means Christian and European families need to think carefully and cleverly about who they spend the holidays with. Make sure the people you spend the season with are culturally appropriate. Also, make sure you spend your holiday money with Christian businesses that hire Christian employees during the holidays. Jews spend their holiday money on Manischewitz products only (the wine is terrible!); Muslims buy a halal goat during Eid from fellow travelers; Christians should buy their pudding, sprouts and turkeys from the right places.

        • I think of it as ‘Backdoor Shariah’.

          ‘Halah’ food is being pushed on Americans without their knowledge.

          Butterball representatives have confirmed their turkeys are now slaughtered according to halal standards and the turkeys are “blessed in the name of Allah”.

        • I don’t know where you live, but I will say “Merry Christmas” to anybody I please. If a store clerk says “Happy Holidays,” I make it a point to say “Merry Christmas” as a correction.

          You know, I’ve never heard anyone say “Happy Kwanzaa” or “Happy Hannukah.” Aren’t they happy, or don’t they want me to be happy?

          • Happy Holidays! 🙂

        • I’ll say “Merry Christmas” to whomever I please. Someone can take that PC censorship and shove it.

        • I tell everyone “Merry Christmas”, I could care less if they don’t like it. Just like I refuse to speak Spanish or have my children learn it.

      36. How does anyone know how many people were shopping on any given day? Bogus numbers just like the rest if the numbers….

        • Maybe they count the really wide ones as 2 or 3 shoppers. I got some gas this afternoon, and I saw a woman go inside who just barely fit through the door. I know I’m a little bit heavy (or big boned), but if my butt was that wide, I don’t think I could get up out of a chair.

          Did I just type that out loud?

          Here’s a joke from an old Uncle Josh record, “Uncle Josh on a Streetcar”:

          A large lady got on a streetcar and squeezed herself into a seat next to a skinny woman. The skinny woman said to the large lady, “They ought to charge by weight on this streetcar line.” The large lady answered back, “Well, they wouldn’t even stop for you.”

          Actually the stores do have total customer numbers from the cash register information that is sent to the corporate computers.

          • Here is a fat woman joke for ya’ll.

            I saw the fattest woman ever, the other day at the movie theatre.

            “HOW fat was she?”

            She was so fat when she sat down near me, she took up two seats… and didn’t even realize there were arm rests in the middle.

            Now that’s one big woman.

      37. Since our kids are older/out of the house, we are scaling back Christmas…. And, not because of lack of funds…. It’s just gotten to be a consumer-fest. Last year I heard about a family online who had young children that decided to start a three-present Christmas: Something you want, something you need and something to read. I like that. I talked to my daughter who lives in the southwest and she did all her Christmas shopping online. I also like online shopping and hate crowds…. And I live three miles from a large outlet mall. If I go there, it’s during the week only. Last year I worked at the mall part-time at a large jewelry chain store…. Worst job ever. I worked there after my mother died and I lasted three months. Different clientele. Trashy. Just to order a simple men’s titanium band takes one month for the customer when I could order it for them in one day if I didn’t have their size in stock at my own store. Last year this Jewish-owned mall stayed open for business until 8 pm Christmas Eve…. This year I checked and it’s 6 pm. My parents had a family business when we were kids and they closed between 3-4 pm… Never had Black Friday. People are tapped out, sick of putting themselves in debt year after year. They just can’t spend anymore. Last year, this year and even next year are shorter selling seasons because Thanksgiving falls later. So these businesses are scrambling because they are truly hurting. There was no recovery-ever. That’s why I closed my business in 2008….right after Christmas. I knew it would never come back. I miss being my own boss and sold a quality product when gold was reasonably priced. But people just can’t afford that stuff anymore. Also, when I was a kid…. Getting something new was a big deal; especially coming from a larger family. Nowadays for people- not so much because they can get anything, any time. People are taking much for granted, not realizing the house of cards is going to fall any time now.

      38. It is over for the EVIL vile disgusting collapsing fascist shithole of Corporatist Fascist Murica, but the coddled COWARD dumbed down brain dead pussies of collapsing fascist Murica just cannot handle TRUTH…nothing but COWARD PUSSIES in collapsing Murica…nothing but cowardly boot licking fascist brain dead pussies.

        • Stop badmouthing cats =^..^=

      39. It looks like cyber Monday made up for the brick and mortar stores loss for the black Friday weekend with record sales. No disaster here yet unless they can’t pay their credit card bills.

        54% of Americans live mostly hand to mouth, can’t pay their credit card bills or have only $400 to spare for emergencies.

      40. Gee, we of the so-called middle class cannot even save our money and not be dipped by corporations into spending every last dime on their worthless merchandise? We won’t be your suckers forever, you know.

      Commenting Policy:

      Some comments on this web site are automatically moderated through our Spam protection systems. Please be patient if your comment isn’t immediately available. We’re not trying to censor you, the system just wants to make sure you’re not a robot posting random spam.

      This website thrives because of its community. While we support lively debates and understand that people get excited, frustrated or angry at times, we ask that the conversation remain civil. Racism, to include any religious affiliation, will not be tolerated on this site, including the disparagement of people in the comments section.