Of Course They Will (Fire On US Citizens)

by | Mar 4, 2011 | Headline News | 187 comments

Do you LOVE America?


    In previous opinions we’ve discussed the possibility of US law enforcement and military assets being deployed to Main Street at the onset of any major crisis. Discussions by our comment contributors included all manner of thought on such a scenario, with arguments for and against the possibility that troops, police and private contractors would, if ordered to, fire on US citizens. As we’ve seen in the middle east over the last several weeks, and are seeing in real time in Libya today, once military is deployed things can spiral out of control very quickly.

    Revisiting the question in a recent article, Zero Hedge contributor Cognitive Dissonance asks Would US Police/Troops Fire Upon US Citizens?:

    So while I can’t answer the title’s question for you I can offer my own opinion as to whether or not Americans will be fired upon. The short answer is that of course they will. Why would you think otherwise when US history offers up dozens of examples to choose from. The powers that be are ego maniacs, the elites have hundreds of years of experience controlling the masses and the masses are mostly living their lives in denial. I consider it inevitable that when the uprisings begin and they turn really ugly that those who are paid to protect the powerful and their assets will follow orders and do precisely that.

    Once again you can’t see this from your own point of view because you most likely won’t be the one holding the riot gear and facing the screaming mobs. While I’m certain some within the police, military and National Guard will follow their heart and refuse to fire or even follow orders if doing so means hurting their fellow citizens, in effect declaring conscientious objector status, they will for the most part be a small minority and will be quickly weeded out of the ranks by the second or third round of protests.

    Considering the insanity the police and troops will be facing as well as the economic collapse that threatens them as well, the police/troops will rally around each other and protect their own closed community using whatever means necessary. Throw in the mercenaries, the agent provocateurs, the psyops campaigns, the meddling from the various intelligence agencies and the only question I have is not if but when and how much.

    Someone in the comment section the other day said that since the military is now an all volunteer fighting force, the standard of conduct has been raised and no one in the military would ever fire on their fellow citizens. While I would love to believe this, I see it from a different point of view. Those in the military want(ed) to be in the military, thus they were more likely to buy into military groupthink and its attendant mind control and propaganda. Rest assured that long before any uniformed service person (police or military) is asked to confront their fellow citizens they will be subjected to a barrage of intensive conditioning and will be propagandized to the nth degree.

    In my opinion, to believe that the various forces arrayed against the protesting public won’t fire on them is to continue to believe in American exceptionalism and more specifically in the desire of the rich and powerful to finally see the error of their ways and thus immediately cease and desist from further exploitation and pillage. If this is the case, if this is what you believe, then all I can say is that you live in a dream world Neo.Once again you can’t see this from your own point of view because you most likely won’t be the one holding the riot gear and facing the screaming mobs. While I’m certain some within the police, military and National Guard will follow their heart and refuse to fire or even follow orders if doing so means hurting their fellow citizens, in effect declaring conscientious objector status, they will for the most part be a small minority and will be quickly weeded out of the ranks by the second or third round of protests.

    Considering the insanity the police and troops will be facing as well as the economic collapse that threatens them as well, the police/troops will rally around each other and protect their own closed community using whatever means necessary. Throw in the mercenaries, the agent provocateurs, the psyops campaigns, the meddling from the various intelligence agencies and the only question I have is not if but when and how much.

    Someone in the comment section the other day said that since the military is now an all volunteer fighting force, the standard of conduct has been raised and no one in the military would ever fire on their fellow citizens. While I would love to believe this, I see it from a different point of view. Those in the military want(ed) to be in the military, thus they were more likely to buy into military groupthink and its attendant mind control and propaganda. Rest assured that long before any uniformed service person (police or military) is asked to confront their fellow citizens they will be subjected to a barrage of intensive conditioning and will be propagandized to the nth degree.

    In my opinion, to believe that the various forces arrayed against the protesting public won’t fire on them is to continue to believe in American exceptionalism and more specifically in the desire of the rich and powerful to finally see the error of their ways and thus immediately cease and desist from further exploitation and pillage. If this is the case, if this is what you believe, then all I can say is that you live in a dream world Neo.

    As with Libya and Bahrain, when the control infrastructure of the power elite is threatened, they will take whatever steps are necessary to maintain power.

    Certainly, as mentioned, there will be those, likely in the tens of thousands, who will simply refuse orders and go home to take care of their families – after all, society would have to be falling apart if military personnel are being deployed. Likewise, however, there will be just as many, if not more, who simply have no clue that they are the pawns of Kings and Queens fighting to the death on the Grand Chessboard. When the order is given, they will gladly follow. Military planners are quite astute when it comes to these types of planning strategem, so it is quite likely that National Guard and other military units will be deployed cross-state, into areas where they will have no friends or family. The fact that you speak English will not matter.

    The domestic contingency plans are clearly documented, and we know for a fact that the National Guard is  Training For Riot Control and Mass Detentions, while the Pentagon and Military Are Actively War Gaming “˜Large Scale Economic Breakdown” and “Civil Unrest”, so this is not as unlikely as many would hope or believe. The plethora of Presidential Executive Orders designed to respond to national emergencies should lay to rest any idea of this not being a realistic possibility.

    The ultimate question of how far government policing intervention is willing to go remains to be seen. But given what we’ve seen throughout history, our recommendation is to simply stay home and get out of the way if at all possible, otherwise you risk the real possibility of being thrown into a refugee reeducation camp or worse.


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      1. Look up the BONUS ARMY! Our WWII heros fired on our WWI vets…

      2. They fire on innocent people now! Just a couple months ago this pastor was emptying his garbage and we had a police sheriff shoot him. Its a boys club where they all stick together. Look at New Orleans and the bridge incident. Sure the police get in trouble LATER but your DEAD! I don’t staying home is the answer I think your pussy if you hide in your closet.
        There needs to be strategic planning and assaults to back up those out there fighting. DO you really think if everyone in Egypt or Libya stayed home things would get resolved? Problem is everyone wants to go to heaven but no one wants to die.
        Isn’t fear an amazing control mechanism?

      3. if you’re ever in southern colorado visit the coal miners’ memorial at ludlow colorado of route 25. here men, women and children  -  repeat children -  were machine gunned to death by the colorado national guard and coal company employees.

        another example  -  army air force planes dropping bombs on striking coal miners in southeastern west virginia.

        another example  -  kent state university..

        nuff said.

        p.s. none of these killers were ever prosecuted.

        have a nice day.

        /s/ mushroom

        p.s.  the only answer is massive overwhelming numbers like recently in egypt. but even this may not work against aircraft.

      4. They will fire alright. Don’t expect nothing less from them.
        These are their orders from the nwo governments.
        We are heading to a condition in which brother will shoot brother. You had your civil war, we had ours, and the ones who gain from this are well known to societies.
        It’s not going to be, like we put flowers in the rifle barells. Those days are over. Most cops and soldiers serve the system, live by the system, and the system is going to be supported by them.
        Be prepared people. It is going to be tough.

      5. “Rest assured that long before any uniformed service person (police or military) is asked to confront their fellow citizens they will be subjected to a barrage of intensive conditioning and will be propagandized to the nth degree.”

        IF this isn’t happening already, maybe without a lot of our service people knowing it…

      6. OH for gods sake, this again!!????  Of course you will always have some percentage of any group do the wrong/evil thing, but if you are not looting/rioting/shooting at/ or burning business and homes, the majority of LEO and Mil are NOT going to be busting heads.
        I don’t  understand this fascination of thinking TPTB have mind control over ALL the members of Law enforcement and military that they are going to blindly follow inhumane/tyrannical/ etc orders . Any order/law that they themselves wouldn’t want to live under is going to keep the majority of them from following the order/law.
        Will there be battles/wars fighting those willing to enforce draconian laws? Quite possibly, but will there be a majority on the bad guys team? NO frickin way..

        • You suffer from the normality complex; the it can’t happen here because I haven’t experienced it yet attitude. Did you not observe the behavior of the Spanish police? They seemed to have been programmed to turn off reason, empathy and a stopping point to the violence they commit against unarmed citizens. You are stuck in a dangerous state of naivety if you believe our police have not received the same level of programming. I strike that actually; is it you are really that naive, or are you really just that willfully ignorant?

          Or are you neither naive or willfully ignorant? Regarding your last comment, you seem to have contradicted yourself. “Will there be battles/wars fighting those willing to enforce draconian laws? Quite possibly…” You have already conceded that law enforcement WILL open fire on opposition. And people are right to oppose counterproductive draconian laws.

          You, sir, sound like a troll. If you are not a troll, you are woefully ignorant and need to catch up on what is going on in the current political theater.

      7. Think non lethal weapons first.  Many new ones out there the last few years.

      8. Firing on your own citizens never works out well, and unlike the protests in the Mid East and in parts of Europe, the US populace is well-armed.
        There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.” — Isoruku Yamamoto
        State violence will be met with insurrection, sealing the fate of the current government.

        • You seem to be discounting a little thing such as the dumbing down of the public for the past 50 or so years systematically with purposefully poor public education, combined with the widely publicized message to those people that guns are bad and kill people. What we have been left with is a nation of troglodytes largely incapable of the most basic of critical thinking skills, let alone the desire to fight for their “rights.” They have been lulled by Dancing With The Stars and dollar menu food, the modern equivalent of bread and circus.

          This is not to make it seem as if there is no hope; there will be a very intelligent, vigilant and well armed minority ready to step up and fight for the ideals that they cherish. I’m simply pointing out that your quote choice has been long outdated. We have long lacked a knowledgeable and self sufficient general public.

      9. In a mass confrontation, when the rubber hits the road, the heavily armed and indoctrinated cops will be firing on protestors to defend themselves and their cronies (and indirectly their employers) from the mob hell bent on destruction. They will essentially be soldiers in combat focused on self-preservation. Whether the ‘enemy’ is armed or not the immediate threat will be real.

      10. prepping for a SHTF scenario is one thing, but sometimes some of you believe too deeply in your fantasies.
        Sure, you can at times  have a small group of hand picked ATF and FBI who they know will blindly follow orders, are with the agenda, whatever, shoot the people of WACO and Ruby Ridge, etc.  You can have a few scared National Guard guys fire a couple rounds at students at Kent State, and you can have the few thugs of the New Orleans Police Department go in and confiscate guns, etc, BUT in a large scale situation, no way in hell, in this fantasy situation some of you believe in, where the country is on fire from looters (who would BTW be being criminals) are you are going to have the Cops and Army lined up mowing people down. There may be some busting of heads in the beginning or sides being taken if it comes down to a civil war ,but it will not be an even fight nowadays,  the MAJORITY of (especially military) would be on the side of the new confederate/anti socialist government/ anti NWO states or whatever you call them this time.
        GO talk to members of LEO and Military yourselves, ask them what they would do and what they think their buddies would do, and you will realize most of this is nonsensical worry. Focus on preparing to fight off the hordes of gangs you will encounter because the cops went home to protect theirs.

      11. Every soldier I meet I specifically speak on and target……target their awareness of the fact that it could be there own kin they are murdering when following such orders. I know they will fire, but if you speak with them in your normal day to day activities before such orders arise….the end effect should benifit everyone except TPTW.

        @ Dali…….why wait……………..? Let’s be assertive and begin educating the soldiers of their ultimate goal…defend the constitution…….period…

      12. No doubt the military (police) sheep will fire on the other sheep.  They are not human beings as much as they are brainwashed and corrupted animals.
        The question is can you stay away from the flocks that get slaughtered?
        I prefer to watch the riots on TV and the internet while those things are around.  With my guns at arms reach.

      13. It has been my experience, particularly in California, that at least the Police will fire on citizens, and likely the military as well.  Having worked for a defense contractor, most new weaponry simply requires pushing a button to eliminate tens if not hundreds at a time.  The commenter who brought up airstrikes seems to be correct- they would likely use that route if there was a large horde.
        Thank you for the fantastic examples, by the way, Mushroom.  “A People’s History of the United States” lists those examples and more- it is a great read for those who are inclined to brush up on the history of subjugation of the masses by the elites in the USA.
        On another note- I simply would like to state appreciation for this board and all of the intelligent contributors.  Recently I made the mistake of commenting on a Newsvine MSN article, and was personally verbally attacked by some very uninformed and hostile people, simply for speaking the truth (the type we read here).  It is so nice to know there is a community of intelligent people who are paying attention to the issues, and while I don’t know anyone here, it is so relieving to read smart articles and smart comments after seeing what exists in the MSM.

      14. Comments…..If they fire on unarmed citizens that are only demonstrating, using lethal force, then its game on. No matter where it is taking place I’ll load up what I need and head to the nearest fracas taking place and swap lead with those that do this. Anytime, anyplace, anywhere in my beloved country.

      15. Everyone seems to forget Kent state back in the 60’s. How many were shot and killed. The Kent State shootings—also known as the May 4 massacre or Kent State massacre[2][3][4]—occurred at Kent State University in the city of Kent, Ohio, and involved the shooting of unarmed college students by members of the Ohio National Guard on Monday, May 4, 1970. The guardsmen fired 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis.[5]

        • You start throwing rocks and bottles at men with guns your stupid a$$ needs to be shot. Also, at Kent State , buildings were set on fire , firehoses were cut, and firemen were assaulted. Somebody was going to die that day, the guardsmen chose to live. So would you.

      16. You might be right.  I have no doubt that when things get bad enough that instigators will use weapons against the police to create exactly what you describe.  But until that time I am more afraid of the union members and the liberals at protests then I am the police.  If you go to see what is going on keep your wits about you and don’t wear an “anti-anything” sign or teeshirt. 

      17. Three thoughts.

        1.  They might fire on us, but we can fire back.  MANY American’s are armed and will defend themselves if fired upon.  That is self defense.  There are way more armed Americans than military & police members. 

        2.  Deep down inside I believe (hope) that most police officers & military members are on the side of the American people, not our corrupt government.  Perhaps they will turn on them & fire instead.  How poetic would that be?

        3.  Preppers will be at minimal risk during early violence because they will be in the safety of their homes eating beans, rice & wheat berries instead of out rioting for food & govt benefits.

      18. During the Cold War, the Soviet Bloc armies fielded “Political Officers”, down to squad level, to make sure Soviet indoctrination was drilled in to the minds of the conscripts. I have heard that the US military may be employing this tactic.

      19. GA-Mom- you make fantastic points.  What will be interesting will be to see how this plays out in the ghettos where people are largely armed, but are criminals and gang-members. In CA we have that problem en mass, and if those types of people are hungry, it will be anarchy.  Fortunately I live out in a rural area several hours outside of a city, and most people here are armed because they are hunters, not gang members.
        Hope you are right about the Police and Military being on our side, but in a place like Los Angeles where the Police are used to having confrontations with the gangs, it seems unlikely that they will side with angry irrational and violent criminals.
        You are so right about preppers being able to hunker down with their rice and beans until it blows over.  That’s our plan too.

      20. Thanks! 

        I think the gang members you are talking about will be taking each other out – kind of a “thinning of the herd” so to speak.  That will be where the first waves of violence occur.  Right in the heart of entitlement nation. 

        Stay safe.

      21. The forces of the state have an intermediate choice between riot batons and automatic firearms.  There are microwave and sonic weapons mounted on trucks. The microwave produces an effect like a severe sunburn. it doesn’t matter how macho you are, you won’t stay in its way any longer than necessary. Sonic is a loud high pitched most unpleasant noise that has the same “area denial” effect.
        Suppose things have gotten really tough in the US. Suppose those very young front line troops, the most impressionable, the most easily indoctrinated, discover we civvies are starving. The tyrant will always be able to feed its troops.  “If i defect, not only am i fighting all our Armed Forces, but I’m likely going hungry as well.”
        Yes, various Third World revolutionaries fought our War Machine to a draw. With enormous loss of life.  Can we do that here? Probably. Even if most of the state’s enforcers defect it takes just one helicopter gunship crew to ruin the day for a square full of demonstrators.
        Fighting guerilla warfare some of us might have a chance. Toe to toe against a professional military is suicide.

      22. I had a lengthy conversation with a special ops military neighbor home for the holidays from Virginia.  He has also served over 20 yrs.  The conversation was exactly this topic.  They take an oath when they join the military, and swear by the constitution (but so do lawyers).  They cannot use excessive force, even if looting is occuring.  If they are physically threatened, yes then that is a different story.

      23. After reading some of the posts here on this subject I am seriously considering whether prepping hasn’t been a complete waste of time and the “everything will be fine” crowd aren’t really the sane ones….how can I be in agreement with some of you people on the need to prep but then see you post such nonsense as to WHY to prep and what to prep for, it makes me want to throw out the baby with the bath water…..Gods Creation..you are a creation all right but I don’t think God wants to lay claim to you.

      24. Up here in the PNW, we are regularly shown police officers killing civilians on the nightly news.  I don’t doubt for one hot minute that the police would open fire on civilians, justified or not.  They don’t hold back now, why would they start holding back when the SHTF?
        I also believe that most military/national guard troops would fire as well.  Again, they’ve done this many times in the past.  1973 and Wounded Knee/Pine Creek ring a bell?  Kent State?  Katrina?  Rodney King riots?…….  The number of troops who DON’T fire is going to be very small.
        Opsec in the initial stages after SHTF is going to be very important.  Not being around any large crowds, and especially strict avoidance all LEO’s and troops is your #1 best bet for survival, and isn’t that what being a “survivalist” is all about?

      25. Cold Dead Hands,

        You said it for me. I get tired of this B.S…I’m former military. I know cops and plenty of military folks. We ARE Americans, we took our oaths. The vast majority will protect their families, neighbors and fellow citizens (Those who deserve to be helped–not looters, criminals and shitheads).
        I wish people would realize that MOST L.E.O.s and the Military have minds and hearts that will reject unlawful orders. They will be good to have on our side during times of trouble. 

        “OH for gods sake, this again!!????  Of course you will always have some percentage of any group do the wrong/evil thing, but if you are not looting/rioting/shooting at/ or burning business and homes, the majority of LEO and Mil are NOT going to be busting heads.
        I don’t  understand this fascination of thinking TPTB have mind control over ALL the members of Law enforcement and military that they are going to blindly follow inhumane/tyrannical/ etc orders . Any order/law that they themselves wouldn’t want to live under is going to keep the majority of them from following the order/law.
        Will there be battles/wars fighting those willing to enforce draconian laws? Quite possibly, but will there be a majority on the bad guys team? NO frickin way..”

      26. I’m in agreement with COLD DEAD HANDS and NOT MUSHROOM; get a grip folks!  Who in the hell do you think the Military is? We’ve got family just like you do, live in the same places, shop at the same stores, and prep the same way! We are just as disgusted with what has happened to this country as you all are. We are not some faceless, nameless, boogey-men/women in black out of SHTF fiction or V! We are not mindless pre-programmed drones waiting to be unleashed on the public streets.
        In case you can’t figure it out from the posts on this site and numerous others, there are MANY of us military here staying abreast of what is really going on and prepping our homes/families just like you are. I have seen many posts sharing our training on survival, weapons, and other topics, so unscrew your heads a bit because, frankly, it IS DAMN INSULTING!! 

      27. Im well prepped
        and well armed, and well trained
        I will wait it out, let the gang bangers and hungry gov. dole fighters diminish their numers, and break what spirit they may have had in the begining..
        than if they target me,(and my type) they will be in a world of hurt.
        yep..i’ll probably die, but there will be collateral damage for messing with me

        Si Vis Pacum Parabellum
        this is one thing i was taught a long time ago, and i have prepaired.
        Also..if they draw first blood, all bets are off.
        you mess with the bull, yer going to get the horns.
        I will live and let live, if they do..I will not be an agressor with out provocation..I will not go looking for it, but, push me, and all bets are off. My family means enough to me to die for, and they can take that to their corrupt over stuffed bank.

        I can survive with out them, Hell I have been ,and even been surviving in spite of them, but if they come to take whats mine, or who i hold dear..heads will roll.

        I love it when i see a thug wearing a bullet proof vest, and just a helmit or no helmet at all thinking they are protected..I laugh, because i can keep a 3″ group at over 300 yards with a 30 cal. 180 gr bullet traveling at 2850FPS.
        I call it “Face off”! one per customer…hey, i got to save ammo right?

        I believe the probable senario listed above will keep most of them , (if they have half a brain)..in check.

        I have to believe most military, and law enforcement have families themselfs..once the S really gets going,, they aint goingt to be following any “orders”..their going to be following their instincts..and that is to preserve their life, and the lives of their loved ones..so in my eyes they will for the most part end up just being like me..
        protecting what is right..not what some washington dink says they should do.

        how many “enforcers” do you think would stand (or hide) and watch one right after the other of thier like kind drop right next to them, before they tuck tail and run?

        For us to act like we can be treated like target practice will only empower them..that best not happen, or we will all be enslaved , further than we already are.

        This is not bravado..if this comes to being real…this will be the only real way to behave, Or you can be abused if thats your thing..
        i have decided if i have no rights, and im not going to be free..than i’d rather be dead….i refuse to be a victim
        those types dont know how to deal with people with that mindset.

        This is a War they wont win, and best never enter..because no one will win.

      28. NWFisher- Thank you for your enlightening comment.  It is great to hear the words from someone who actually is in the military and knows how many military and police feel.
        In my area, I cannot say I blamed the police, especially during the Rodney King riots- innocent Caucasians were being killed simply out of anger by rioters, and the police had the right to open fire on violent looters and rioters.
        Bob Chapman also says the same, as he is in contact with many military personnel.
        What is the current sentiment in the US military towards Obama? From my (possibly wrong) vantage point, it seems he is an illegal alien and all of his orders should be disregarded, but it would be interesting to know how the troops feel.  If Obama ordered an attack on US citizens, would the military uphold their oath?
        Thanks for any information you can give us.

      29. Comments…..I am from a deep southern state, and I think I know my culture well.   I don’t know if it is possible to cherry pick men in the military from their “companys”,  and send them to areas far away from where they grew up, but I am telling you, that the VAST majority of southern men and boys will never fire on their own people.  If it gets to that point, they will leave in droves and return home.  I have lived in other parts of the country and traveled overseas, and the southern culture is alive and well.    I can’t speak for the rest of the country, but it is different south of the mason-dixon,  we see ourselves as a sub-group, a family. Ofcourse, there are always exceptions, but I am telling you there is a different mind-set here.  The people I know are college educated professionals, armed to the teeth and they have no love for D.C.  The military that returns home will be welcomed, re-armed and put in newly armed state militias.  The only people they will fire on will be thugs and gangs. 

      30. It’s groundhog day, same shit…new day.
        GMAFB – nope, nada, none

      31. The Leaderless Resistance!

        The concept of Leaderless Resistance was proposed by Col. Ulius Louis Amoss, who was the founder of International Service of Information Incorporated, located in Baltimore, Maryland. Col. Amoss died more than fifteen years ago, but during his life was a tireless opponent of communism, as well as a skilled Intelligence Officer. Col. Amoss first wrote of Leaderless Resistance on April 17, 1962. His theories of organization were primarily directed against the threat of eventual Communist take-over in the United States. The present writer, with the benefit of having lived many years beyond Col. Amoss, has taken his theories and expounded upon them. Col. Amoss feared the Communists. This author fears the federal government. Communism now represents a threat to no one in the United States, while federal tyranny represents a threat to everyone . The writer has joyfully lived long enough to see the dying breaths of communism, but may, unhappily, remain long enough to see the last grasps of freedom in America… [CONT]


      32. This was one of the topics covered on Prophets of Doom last night.  Political corruption at every level of our government from the national headquarters of both parties right down to the local dog-catcher.  Our economy will collapse over it, but so will the general peace.
        When the RK riots went off in LA, I still had friends at MCAS El Toro and they told me how a lot of guys were getting called from reserve units and NG to go to LA and act like “peacekeepers”.  Their job seemed to mainly be convincing armed store owners to disarm and go home.  The stores were then (of course) looted.  No direct shooting between them and the rioters, but then, they weren’t issued ammo either.
        We can’t go around in some fairy tale land thinking that LEO’s and military are always going to be on our side.  You can look up on youtube and see cops in the Katrina mess gleefully kicking in doors and shooting dogs all day long.  They were never penalized.  We had a post on this very website about another sheriff down there who said that he planned to have his ‘white’ buddies round up all the gas and food when the SHTF.  Like he would really pass it out.  The Cato Institute (you know, the very same one the NRA uses for all its statistics) estimates on their website that there are as many as 40,000 (not a typo) wrongful home invasions my police swat teams every year in the United States.  There’s an interactive map that you can use to look at noteworthy individual cases involving shootings where the police weren’t even in the right house.
        Having cops is great.  Same with the military, (I served in the USMC).  But that doesn’t mean that they can be blindly trusted or counted on.  They’re people just like everyone else, no more (or less) special.

      33. Tactically in a full scale economic meltdown I don’t think the Military / Police will last very long. The units will begin to break down just as fast as society breaks down. They are after all a reflection of the society in which they live.

        The leaders of the world will be bunkered down and society will realize who caused this mess. My bigger fear is society itself.

        There just are not enough troops or police to control the masses if the masses don’t want to be controled.

        Study the evolution of what would happen during a massive economic collapse and you will see that the masses could be controlled with food and water much easier then bullets. Hence FEMA camps and Government Cheese.

        So yes police and military will fire on the citizens, but it won’t be continued frontal assults. There will be some lopsided battles early on but then the whole thing will pretty much be urban warfare.

      34. Wow!  The rage, prejudice, and hairtriggers exhibited here by so many commenters directed at police and military! Scary.  Not many of you can personally know any police or military, otherwise you wouldn’t think they’re all the same.
        Disclosure: I’m a Sgt. in a big city police dept.
        If you DO know any police/military try engaging them in a discussion about the illegal orders that police/military promise not to obey at OathKeepers.org and why.  I know I won’t follow any of those orders if I were to receive them and neither will anyone I supervise/command.
        Yes there are idiots and loose cannons in the police/military, and we have to keep an eye on them and weed them out wherever possible.  But I guess the groups you identify with don’t have any idiots or loose cannons….
        The key for demonstrators in America will be to find effective ways to influence public opinion and the govt that won’t trigger a violent police response.  Take 500 of your best friends to occupy and shut down JP Morgan in NYC for instance.  Go in and sit down.  Police will eventually have to take you out but by then you will have won the day and made your point. However, if your “peaceful” march includes a “patriot” who just HAS to throw a Molotov cocktail at a row of police standing along the route, don’t then claim that the jack-booted thugs beat or shot peaceful demonstrators for NO REASON. Here’s a good one: convert all your savings in US dollars into silver. Peaceful, overnight revolution.

      35. Not one person here has even considered that if things got that bad in the US how many of those volunteer soldiers would not be thinking of their own families and loved ones and what danger they might be in? And not hotfoot it home to be with them as fast as their feet (or other means of conveyance) will carry them, legally or otherwise. I am a US veteran and I know I’d be gone in a heartbeat to get home and be with and help those that matter most to me.

      36. Mac- great topic for discussion today. We’ve examined this subject before but it needs to be revisited regularly so we dont forget. Thanks….now my 2 cents worth:
        OH YES they will fire on the citizens! Go all the way back to the whiskey rebellion(the beef was the tax, not the whiskey). That was, what, the 1780s or so? (I’m too lazy to look it up) When America was a whopping 10 or 15 yrs old as a nation? And the bonus marchers in the 1930s mentioned by Ryan in 1st comment above. And those that Mushroom cited and many, many more. Among the perpetrators, some were states or governors, some were more localized authorities, some were national. Among the stated reasons for the attacks, some were to subjugate people to squeeze tax money or compliance from them, some were to perpetuate an organization or corporation and their control, profit, or monopoly of resources. The level of authority varies and the reasons claimed for the attacks varies but it all boils down to this- those in power want to keep that power. Whether it’s to make you buy or not buy something, to vote (or not) a certain way, to comply with a so-called “law” they’ve passed, or just to force you to tolerate their bureaucratic BS. Repeat: those in power want to keep that power. They fear losing their power so they always try to increase it. It’s part of the sinful nature of humans to behave that way once they have even a little bit of control over others. We’ve all probably heard of some pissant city council member in a puny little town trying to flex their muscles against the local folks. It doesn’t take much of that drug called power to make them start craving more. That’s why the founding of this nation, built around the idea of sovereign citizens living in (almost completely sovereign) states which were in a strictly limited and voluntary union with other sovereign states was such a radical and wonderful concept. It gave us the greatest nation the world had ever seen. But, it’s been under attack by the power seeking wannabes since its very birth.
        Now, to return our focus to the title and more sharply defined point of the article- with very few exceptions, Hell Yes they will fire on the citizens. Young/old,  black/brown/white,  poor/middle class,  crippled old granny in her wheelchair holding a baby, it doesn’t matter. They will shoot! Later, when the victims are cold and stiff, a few of the perps will repent for the evil they did. And one or two might be “prosecuted.” That does no good for the cold, stiff ones or their greiving families. And the end result for the perps is still exactly what they wanted- they used every means possible to Keep and Increase their power. Usually with the outcome they sought.
        Now lets think through some possible scenarios (and remember, it’ll never be exactly as we expected and it won’t be limited to these possibilities only.) We could see local law enforcement, county/state law enforcement, Park police, university police, port police, mercenaries foreign and domestic, private security firms(care for a drink of blackwater anyone?), local “militias” coerced or hired by the power elite, nat’l guard, regular armed services and reserves, NATO or UN forces which are nothing more than mercenary thugs sent to kill outside their own home turf, even two or more competing factions of protesters, the list seems endless. Then we have tear gas, water cannon, sonic boom, tazers, ear splitting shreiking noises from armored vehicles( I forget the name and I’m too lazy to look this up also), rubber bullets, razor wire barricades and the myriad tactics of crowd intimidation etc, etc…then throw in the elites near total control of information and we have the problem of propaganda and misinformation by the ton…the good guys will certainly be seen as the bad guys by MOST people because that’s how the PTB endlessly portrey them. Your own family and neighbors will see you as the problem, not the victim. Then when the less-than-lethal tactics don’t work they will use live ammo, poison gas, napalm, grenades, magic death rays from the planet Zenon, whatever is available……..And remember-MOST of the people exerting force on behalf of the power-mad elite will fire. Maybe they’ve bought in to the propaganda and they really think you are the bad guys, maybe they aren’t from your home state or country or they don’t speak your language. To them, we are the strange looking foreigners and snuffing some of us won’t bother their conscience at all.
        this is even beginning to depress me as I write it. (5 min. break for another cold adult beverage)…aahhhh. that’s better.
        So, what are we really up against and what advantages, if any, do we have? We face a well-armed, highly-funded, skillful, resourceful and ruthless enemy. We will rarely anticipate their next move correctly. They will appear to be softening and then strike like a cobra on steroids. They will never surrender or compromise(despite what their propaganda machines say.) The ONLY possible ending for them is total victory or total defeat. As for their defeat,that might mean killing them, putting ’em in a very secure prison, blasting them off on a one-way rocket to Zenon or whatever. They must be vanquished somehow or they will be back to fight us again with even more insidious tactics and arms.
        What are our advantages? First, we greatly outnumber them. Our weapons are smaller but we have lots more of them. We can be, and should be, unified. Don’t let them divide us and pit us against one another. And we should be willing to take the fight to them. Don’t wait to react to their moves. Go on the offensive. Once the actual conflict starts we must use this tactic. Also, remember what we, and they, are fighting for. Like the fox and the rooster- the fox is only fighting for his dinner, the rooster is fighting for his LIFE. And most importantly, we are and we must remain, morally in the right. We won’t start the hostilities and we will suffer under their oppression just as long as we can. But when the corn-shuckin’, cattle-brandin’, and ass-kickin’ starts we will give all we have to the struggle, knowing that we aren’t fighting for greed, control, or power over others- but we are fighting for the lives and God given FREEDOM of ourselves and our children. We can win. We must win. We will win because it is RIGHT for us to be free…………….

        My apologies to all. I guess I got a little carried away here. Didn’t mean to sound like a raving maniac. It’s just that I do truly love this country.(not the political entity or the government, but the people and the ideals it was founded on) And I really do cherish the concept of freedom, even as it gets taken from us more each day. I don’t want to see anybody get hurt, but the truth has to be said- at some point we must be willing to fight, we must be morally right, and we better believe that THE ENEMY WILL SHOOT! Please forgive my sometimes colorful language and God bless you all.  OKIE

      37. your smokin something thats for sure.

      38. again, the only examples to back up your paranoia are SMALL isolated incidents. Of course you can always find a few people to do your evil bidding. This is still America, and there is still a sense of right and wrong here among the majority and in a MAJOR scenario, they cannot find enough to do their bidding to have any kind of effect.
        I often wonder how many of these posts like this inciting inappropriate fear are  done so on purpose to illicit the very responses they purport to fear…

      39. I have been a Police Officer and Sheriffs Deputy in the State of Florida, for over ten years. In the year 2008 one of our Officers had pulled over a vehicle for speeding. not knowing the car containing three persons, had just robbed a video store at gunpoint and pistol whipped several patrons. as the Officer approached the car with the drivers side door opened, the driver exited the vehicle and began firing at the Officer. The Officer retreated to the rear of his patrol car and  a trainee who was doing his Field Training Ride Along fired five rounds striking the driver and killing him. I have said this to say, if, and when the trouble starts and you are out looting and burning down stuff then those that are out to preserve the peace WILL DO THEIR JOBS. I have never stopped ,or taken anyone to jail that had not committed a crime, ever! Yes there are rouge cops out there, but their stint will be short lived. This is the greatest  COUNTRY in the World agreed, but there are people in Government that are extremely EVIL AND TRUST ME, GOD sees and will have his revenge. I prep with food, ammo, and everthing thing that goes with the scenario, i even started a garden in the back yard. For the Christian folks out there, as I am, dont believe the Rapture is gonna take you away, it might happen, i am just saying God is not going to do anything for yout that you can. STAY SAFE AND HELP THOSE YOU CAN, DO NOT GO LOOKING FOR TROUBLE IT WILL FIND YOU IF IT IS LOOKING. GOB BLESS, AND BY THE WAY ASK THE LORD INTO YOUR HEART TODAY!

      40. Save all your larger glass bottles, cut rags to the proper size, store gasoline – even “unarmed” people have the technology to make an effective weapon…we saw it in Greece and we’ll see it here.
        Go to YouTube and look for “potato cannon” – there are a lot of weapons that use more common ammo – and a potato can blow a hole in a car.  If it can blow through a car, then it can knock any man over, armored or not.  A potato weighs a lot more than a bullet and you can reload at the grocery store (speaking of which, maybe people want to start planting those potatoes that turned green and started sprouting in the fridge) in case the army commandeers all the spud ammo.
        Just sayin’
        Everyone can be armed, not just those with FIRE arms.
        I think that the military may fire on US citizens but I believe that trend will be short-lived.  Their lives will be very short who take it upon themselves to shoot (esp. unarmed) citizens.  The Constitution listed keeping and bearing arms for a reason.  This is the number one reason.  I think even the stupidest military agent will get that pretty quickly.
        Ear plugs and sound-protection headphones are not a bad prep, nor are gas masks.  I don’t put much past the INITIAL attempt to put us down.  After the potato cannons and molotov coctails start flying, things will change dramatically, since it won’t be JUST those homemade weapons, it will be an all-out onslaught of every caliber, and who knows how many hard-core ex-military preppers have hand grenades,and other goodies/nasties they’re keeping just for such an occasion.

      41. @ NWFisher
        “Will there be battles/wars fighting those willing to enforce draconian laws? Quite possibly, but will there be a majority on the bad guys team? NO frickin way..”
        Don’t take this personally, BUT…
        There was a time I was proud to support our once honorable American Military Force. NOT NO MORE! Our Military are the insurgents now, the terrorists, the “Invasive Species”. They are mentally deranged, psychopathic gang member serial killers on psychotropic drugs and steroids, raping their own women and killing, with great pleasure,  civilian or military personnel of countries they are supposedly spreading “democracy” in. These “fighting machines” are groomed early on ritalin and violent video games. Once on board and under the watchful eye of their owners, they perform as they are told, when they are told and where they are told.
        “U.S. Central Command policy allows troops a 90- or 180-day supply of highly addictive psychotropic drugs before they deploy to combat”
        How many millions of civilians in Iraq have been murdered? How many countries have we invaded to spread “democracy”? No, they don’t kill to uphold the U.S. Constitution, the kill for the sure pleasure of killing. Right is wrong and wrong is right.
        One third of Military women raped!

        Why is it the suicide rate with veterans is at an all time high? http://www.rense.com/general89/suic.htm
        That 1 in 5 suffer BAD mental health. http://www.rense.com/general54/badmental.htm

        Drugs cloud US troops judgement http://www.presstv.ir/detail/161622.html
        Why our Soldiers are Falling Apart
        Flying High – American Pilots Pop ‘Go Pills’ Then go kill
        The Pentagon’s Secret Psychopharmalogical Warfare Program
        The New, more Radically Diverse US Army
        and this is what many on the military are wired to
        These articles are just the tip of the iceberg. Just pointing out where the rabbit hole is. Enter at your own risk. Denial is rampant and contagious.
        If food, or political, or economic riots were to start festering in America, does anyone think for a moment that these front line returning troops with fresh blood already masking their perception of reality, out of touch with who and what they are as humans, are going to tone it down for the red, white and blue general public, regardless of whether they engage with those throwing molotov cocktails on main street or hiding in their basement? Give me a fricken break!

      42. America can not be compared to any other country when talking about US servicemen firing on their own people, we’re the country with troops in 60 other countries, are they gointo leave those countries to fight their own people? I don’t think so, As far as LEO and private JBTs firing on us, yes they would, not all, the oldre and pre 9/11 ones, but the new shaved headed young ones would, they have an attitude that isn’t like any of the old time cops, if anyone watches the dshow cops, they should see that easy.Every civilian is a criminal to them and if they’re not, they try to intimidate and belittle them into being one.

      43. In my opinion if there is a massive economic collapse it will be very difficult for the government to maintain martial law. First off the nation it to large to occupy.Even if the military manages to acquire all 1.5 million reserves and utilize 1 million of it’s total 1.5 million personnel in the Navy, Army, Marines, Air Force and Coast Guard, it would struggle to control 308-310 million citizens in a land mass of 9,161,966 sq km.
        American law enforcement numbers are not as strong as some of you think. According to the BLS (bureau of Labor Statistics), there were only 883,600 law enforcement personnel in 2008. And that was before the financial collapse and subsequent layoffs in local departments across the nation. The number included detectives, managers, police and sheriff’s patrol officers.

        So when you add the 2,500,000 soldiers and the 883,000 law enforcement, you have a force of 3.3 million agents. This is less than one percent of America’s highly-armed population. Most of these agents will be working logistics and support for handling prisoners, transportation, intelligence and supply. But this isn’t even the biggest problem.

        The police are used to dealing with people who are afraid of them and have something to lose. In a collapse scenario, the rioters will lack both characteristics. And the military will be poorly suited to police a populace that is desperation for resources. If the soldiers became violent against the population, they could divide the armed forces and spark a civil war. Moreover, Iraq and Afghanistan has shown us that the U.S. military is not invisible and that guerrilla warfare tactics can be deployed successfully against a high-tech army.  Bringing in foreign troops would problematic, because if the U.S. is in a panic, wouldn’t the other countries that are so heavily tied to America also have their own problems. Plus, we know how well foreign occupations went in Afghanistan, Vietnam and Iraq.
        Now on the idea of police and military firing on us well depends on the situation. For example if the shtf most cops will not show up to work. I am black and I have many friends(black,white,latino,asian),family members who let’s say act “thuggish” and hate the “5-0.” They never say it but the way they talk about police,would shoot cops if there is no rule of law. LEO are targets and if the shtf gangs,mobs will raid police stations and kill cops in certain communities. Many ,not all, in the black community hate the police and when the shtf they will kill a cop if he/she comes near their neighborhood. So cops will not show up to work because they could be blown away and their families left helpless. Imagine a cop who lives in Bay Ridge,Brooklyn gets called from work that there is a bloody riot of armed gangs storming police stations. Would the cop go knowing 1) He/she would get killed,2)leave his family helpless to thugs in his own neighborhood and 3)the system has failed and collapse there is no point in going to work. So my thinking is that if shit gets out of control cops will no show up because they are not ready to deal what is coming. So if there is a breakdown in society honorable LEO who follow the Constitution would stay at home to protect their family and communities no matter what the president or governor said. For example if there is a massive gun ban or and executive order for gun confiscation the honorable cops with experience or military experience would not follow this order.
        The military are not properly trained for police work in the US. And the national guard are your average citizens who work as warriors in the weekend. I know many say “Kent State,Waco,Ruby Ridge,New Orleans..” they failed to realize that the military do not have enough manpower to enforce law and order as i mentioned above.  In a martial law collapse many would want to know how their family are doing,and if they are given an order to disarm citizens ,shoot to kill,or enforce a gun ban many would defect. About 65% of the military come from the southern  bible belt,southwest,and midwest states who have a strong anti federal power,pro gun,personal responsibility back ground that they believe. And if they do fire on citizens many would defect and this would cause a civil war. There was  marine who was 24 and served three tours in Iraq one before the surge and two after. Anyway I asked him “If lets say the feds pass a law to ban guns and they order you and your unit to enforce it(gun confiscation)?” he said “Hell No!” He was from Pennslyvania a very pro gun state. Then I asked him would he follw and order to shoot American citizens. He told me Marines are allowed to not follow a dishonorable order. This gave me hope. He then told me that guys in the military ,not all of course, see the president and Congress as temporary civil servants not masters.
        So would most likely happen when the shtf? Most likely the power of the federal government will get weaker and weaker as states declare themselves republics and secede from the union. It will be turmoil like the collapse of the USSR however it would be very bloody. Sorry for my long response!

      44. Gear up and hunker down: It’s a commin!!!
        The wife and I started prepping about 2006. I am 46, she is 41.
        Sold the house in town, purchased a 5 acre piece of land, and put up an “eco-friendly” brick, all electric house. Designed as a 2 story walk out, but started footings on ground level. Backfilled around the 3 sides. (No basement moisture problems)
        Got the back fill from the 1-1/2 acre we dug out and turned it into a productive pond.
        (This was a big project, pond is 10’-12’ deep on average with 3-30’ deep holes punched down into the aquifer)
        Put in structure cedar trees & pallets) stocked it in 07 with Bass, Catfish, Regular and hybrid Bluegill. (Water & food source)
        Put up a 36’ X 48’ steel pole building w/concrete floor& high secure doors.  Added rows of shelves, cabinets, and have it set up as a secure storehouse and started building up the inventory of articles needed for long term. (Garden tools /chainsaws / treated fuel…etc…etc.
        Fenced in 2 wooded acres, made a chicken run, fully enclosed 30’ x 90’ with 2 coops. Currently have 45 laying hens, 6 roosters. Getting about 25 eggs a day, I sell them @$2.00 dozen and have a waiting list.
        Added 2 out buildings and 8 Nigerian Dwarf Goats.  Selling the kids for now, will look to milking the does, and the bucks will be for butcher, when the time comes.
        Have 2 hutch cage system, with 15 doe and 3 bucks. (Believe it or not, they breed like rabbits) I get $7.00 per Rabbit; have sold 35 in last 6 months.
        To round it out started with 4 ducks, now have 19, (they love the pond) and added a Tom and Hen Turkey just because they entertain me.
        This fall put up a 9’ x 12’ plexi -glass greenhouse, with a water collection system & hand pump, coming off the south roof 150 gal storage.  Just getting started with a serious heirloom garden, but lots of work and lots to learn. (This is a work in progress and will be for years)
        Added a Napoleon insert into the fireplace hole (wow what a difference this winter, I had no idea how much heat went out the chimney) currently sit on about 6 cord of wood, and looking to add 4-6 more this summer.
        We recently added a huge improvement to the energy side of the equation.  24-230volt Trina solar modules.  Mounted on 2 Lorentz single axis trackers, tied into 2 (SMA) sunny boy 5,000 watt inverters. Backed up with 20 12 volt Valence lithium ion batteries tied into 2 (SMA) sunny islands.
        Set up and monitored by a sunny webbox through (SMA) web portal, and added a TED 5000 to monitor the rate of use. Fully operational on / off grid solution.  (Broke into sub panel, running well/refrigerator/2 freezers/microwave/various lights/various outlets.)
        Currently have 2 years for 4 people – mountain house freeze dried food, 24 cases of actual mil spec MRE’s (purchased through military contact), 6-5 gal buckets of long term store sugar, 6-5 gal buckets powdered milk, and 10-5 gal buckets rice. Have 35 #10 cans pinto, navy, kidney & garbanzo beans as well.
        A fully stocked pantry with about 6 – Months worth of the stuff we eat day in and day out. This is all rotated through on a 90-120 day turn. Anything we miss, we donate to the local food pantry if it has more than 60 days left.  If not, can you say HUGE compost bin system (By the coop.)
        2 -freezers 1- with hog & deer and 1- with beef. We buy direct from a farmer friend of mine, and pay a butcher friend of mine to process.  We keep ½ a beef and a whole hog. I dropped 3 deer this season. One I paid my buddy& processed it into jerky and sticks (About 32 lbs small buck). The rest I processed and wrapped not pretty, but very edible.
        5 cases of 50 rolls of commercial toilet paper, paper ware, as well as tin foil, canning jars, reusable lids, pressure cookers, and all the stuff we will need to can. Started small in fall of 2009, and learning from our mistakes.  (Should be more ready than most when the time comes, but a long way from being proficient, this will also be an ongoing project.)
        My next 2 projects are an old fashioned in the ground root cellar, but I am in a quandary of where to locate it and how I want it, so it is in the planning stages right now, and a old time smoke house. This will be so cool when it’s done. I have the plans and am busy acquiring all the stuff to begin this spring.
        Have a nice store of EMT & military spec medical & dental supplies. (These cost some serious bucks.) We have surgeons and dental tools and an extensive and growing library of herbal and modern medical information. We have been reading a lot and taking some classes at the Red Cross. (Probably the area we feel the most unprepared for from a point of knowledge.)
        I currently shoot a savage 30-06 with an identical back up for parts and just in case. I have 3-243’s, the kids use for high power. 4-22’s, 2-scopped, 2 iron sights. 2-12g, 3-20g, 1-410, 2-9mm (his and hers) 2-357/38mag (his & hers). I have a variety of quality knives both for game processing as well as self defense. This is an area, I don’t compromise on quality. The average price on my knives is more than some spend on guns. (I like knives) throw in a few machetes, and various hardware and we feel safe.
        I take to heart that ammo will be worth its weight in gold (James Rawles), so we do not own any gold or silver, but boy do we have ammo. It will be the ultimate barter item, and I have it stacked up deep, how much, honestly I have lost count.  (I should own Federal and Remington at this point.)
        We have a family membership to the local range, and everyone is above average in marksmanship, and dare I say I pride myself on this fact. My youngest daughter engaged her first target with a small 22 revolver at the ripe old age of 6 years old. (This freaked many people out. We spend our movie and popcorn money on putting rounds down range.)
        I/we practice home security, and OPSEC. We have double deadbolts, and the doors were a custom order when I built the house and I make sure we are locked up tight at night. All the keys are secured, even in the locked garage(s). I am a freak about my before bed walk around security process.
        Everyone in the home is familiar with the fields of fire on the property, and knows how to engage a threat….Rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6…..Nuff said
        All and all we feel about 65% prepared. I have a solar golf cart, converted into a utility rig to run around and do chores. We have a Kawasaki 300, Yamaha 125, and a trail 90, electric and gas tillers, chainsaws, oil plugs, bar oil, fuel treatment, propane, charcoal (stacked high), lanterns, Coleman fuel, wicks, globes, rocket stoves, camp stoves, cast iron ware, Dutch ovens,  wheel barrows, wagons, hoses, cords, rope, pipe, many old fashioned hand tools both garden and craft & backups for my backups. I have gathered up so much stuff in the last 5 years, if you didn’t know it you would think we could be on the show “Hoarders”.
        We paid off the house last December, are debt free, (thanks Dave Ramsey) and since then we have been going full bore prep mode. We keep about 20K in cash in small bills on hand secured and hidden, and have 4 lists. Every family member has their assigned stores to get to as soon as we see the collapse start, and we will get all the things we can while we can as fast as we can.
        I am the only one in the family with a CCP. I don’t want to put my family in a public setting, having to make that type of decision. My rule is, outside the home place, WALK AWAY from ANY conflict and live to fight another day. I am carrying most the time, but we never share that with anyone outside the immediate family.
        I recommend you get started soon..Have a plan, and work the plan:
        It takes years of time, commitment,  and a lot of dollars that could be spent on consumer items that you learn to do without, but in the end I would rather be prepared 10 years to early than 1 day to late.
        Keep your powder dry.

      45. @Mardochee
        You make excellent points and I think you are on the money.  Anyone following the orders to fire on us or confiscate our lawful weapons is retarded, and ridding ourselves of them will serve to weed out those unfit to contribute their DNA to the post-apocalypse world which will need much smarter people, who have the ability to reason for themselves and some moral fiber.


        Cold Dead Hands
        March 4th, 2011 at 12:31 pm

        You don’t think technology has been developed to control military or LEO???

        Google…Nikola Tesla/Russia/bio-energy/psycho-energy/energy

      47. GIZMO,
        “…so unscrew your heads a bit because, frankly, it IS DAMN INSULTING!! “
        I totally agree. After a while it starts to piss a person off. It gets old when some keep thinking that Military and L.E.O.s are a bunch of Gestapo shitheads waiting for a chance to kill and abuse their fellow citizens. We (Active, Retired or Veterans) ARE also citizens of this (once great?) Nation as you pointed out.
        We just have a much different perspective that comes from being in harm’s way (and all the rest that goes with that, that can’t be explained to the non-initiated.). The Job of the U.S. Military since it’s beginning has been to kick the shit out of the BAD guys that threaten the U.S., not be the bad guys. We’ve screwed up on occasion but by and large we’ve done a good job keeping things safe. I expect that to continue.

      48. Mardochee- I always enjoy reading your posts.  Thank you for your thorough and well thought out answer.  You bring the human element to light very well in your response and it has helped me consider a few points.

      49. The cops in New Orleans and the RK riots were all actively involved in disarming the people.  They simply demanded that regular folks turn over their weapons.  Law abiding people did turn them over (mostly).  It’s on youtube.
        This is why I say to avoid LEO’s at all costs post SHTF.  If you want to end up in one of those shiny new FEMA camps, just make sure your local police know where you are.  Who do you think is going to be rounding everyone up?  There ain’t no troops coming from the feds, or the planet Zenu either (sorry Tom Cruise and John Travolta……).  Your local law enforcement is who is going to round folks up, shoot their animals, and throw everybody in the FEMA camp.

      50. To all who serve:

        Dear Lord,
        Today we honor our veterans,
        worthy men and women
        who gave their best
        when they were called upon
        to serve and protect their country.
        We pray that you will bless them, Lord,
        for their unselfish service
        in the continual struggle
        to preserve our freedoms, our safety,
        and our country’s heritage, for all of us.
        Bless them abundantly
        for the hardships they faced,
        for the sacrifices they made,
        for their many different contributions
        to America’s victories
        over tyranny and oppression.
        We respect them, we thank them,
        we honor them, we are proud of them,
        and we pray that you will watch over
        these special people
        and bless them with peace and happiness.
        In Jesus’ name we pray; Amen.
        By Joanna Fuchs


        March 4th, 2011 at 1:55 pm
        I’m gonna call ya on that one—the neighbor that laughs at me for prepping??? I discovered via the laughing hyena’s daughter that both her granny’s are storing food….know why?? One told the other her military son in Florida started her prepping two years ago…the military know…and they may not react the way you say. They aren’t going hungry—their Mamas are getting ready!!

      52. I want to move to the broke state of CA & pay high gas prices.  Mardochee Augustin you are right on except for the military.  State your qualifications/experience on your statements.  You are full of shit!

      53. Comments…..James Woroble Jr
        March 4th, 2011 at 3:01 pm

        “””The communist is not a threat to anyone?”””
        Isn’t that because the federal gov’t has become ‘communism’??

        The infiltration started decades ago.

      54. Comments…..They will use the private contractors (Blackwater, X and the like) to put on a shock and awe campaign and thus nip the growing insurrection in the bud.  Besides, most Americans nowadays don’t have the cojones to take to the streets.


        Not one post has mentioned state militias…the constitution not only issued the right, it mandates the holding of state militias as our DUTY; to protect our citizens from domestic and foreign invasion.

        Okay–alli did….finally!!

      56. Anonymous- actually, I ain’t smokin’ anything. And my reference to an adult beverage was my feeble attempt at humor. I last drank an adult(alcoholic) beverage in 1986. So, excusing my limited intellect, I’m about as lucid and intelligent as I can be. Granted, I’m not too smart-heck I’m dumb enough to still be tryin’ to support myself by WORKING. As for your assertion of the “small and isolated” occurances- 2 points. One, they aren’t small or isolated when you look at the collective body count of the history of the power-mad elites in this country. Quite the contrary. Please try to avail yourself of a few history books. Second, even if a particular “isolated” incident only has one casualty/fatality it means a helluva lot if that casualty is you or somebody you love. Long after the dust settles and things return to “normal” the casualty is still just as DEAD. I’ve buried family members twice from these “isolated” events and, no, they weren’t looting or breaking ANY laws when they were cut down by the ones “keeping the peace.” They weren’t even hippie freaks, radicals or protesters. They were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. If I’ve appeared to be a fear-monger that certainly WAS my intention I suppose. Not that I’m trying to incite anyone into doing something stupid, but yes, it’s time people woke up to the fact that we are moving ever closer to the day when all hell breaks loose in America. Maybe it won’t happen in your town, and maybe it won’t happen for a zillion years but we need to WAKE THE F### UP in this nation. The possibilities of true shtf  in our country is real. Maybe we can just go to a tea party, or join some political action club, or maybe we can all hold hands and sing “we are the world” and everything will be lovely. But if it doesn’t turn out like that, then the time to at least think about what might be coming upon us IS NOT after the first sparks fly. By then it’ll be too late for getting up to speed on what we ought to do. If slinking quietly into hopelessness and total enslavement is ok with you then I wish you Godspeed. But then I’d have to ask- what the heck are you on this site for?

        COPOUT- I’ll certainly give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you’re one of the good ones out there. And yes, if some shtf calamity happens then after a couple weeks most of the good cops will be home protecting family and NOT cracking heads of innocent people. And yes I still think many cops are decent human beings. I really do.  But what about the first few days/weeks? Until most of America realizes this is gonna be a long emergency then what would most LEO be doing in the early stages?  When most officers still think these events are mostly local, and most of the information is still propoganda put out by the PTB? When they still think they are “keeping the peace?” Secondly, you say that you’ve never took anybody to jail that hadn’t “committed a crime.” Can you honestly say that ALL the laws you enforce are good and right laws in the first place? Granted, you guys don’t get to pick and choose which laws to enforce- I understand that. But aren’t there plenty of laws that shouldn’t even be on the books? (no, I ain’t talking about legalizing all drugs or child prostitution or anything like that.) How about writing citations for no seat belt use or no insurance on a car? While I do think that wearing a seatbelt is a good idea and so is having sufficient liability insurance, is that really for the state to decide and to use your badge and gun to enforce? ALL law enforcement is eventually backed up by lethal force isn’t it? I mean if I get a seat belt ticket, don’t pay and don’t come to court then there’s a warrant issued for me, right? And if/when I next encounter a LEO they will use WHATEVER level of force is required to take me in, right? In that case we have a bunch of crooked political hacks using you and your weapon to take my life or freedom if I refuse to comply with their will, right? Seems to me that’s what it eventually comes down to with every law on the books. And that’s the problem we have with bought and paid for politicians writing massive numbers of laws every year- many of which laws should be left up to the conscience of the individual and not the state power structure. After all, they are always gonna be trying to increase their power, over me, you and everybody. It seems like a dilemma to me, for good decent cops to be trying to enforce the will of corrupt elites when all they really want to do is help provide a peaceful and free society. How can they do both? Wish I had an answer to that and no I don’t resent you or your chosen profession. Also- as for the story you related about the trainee cop shooting the guy that was shooting at him or his partner- from what you said I’d say he did exactly the right thing. Your most hopeful point was about each one of us getting to know our Lord. I totally agree. Even if I am wrong about everything concerning Americas future it still matters where I spend eternity. Even though we disagree on some things I still say GOD BLESS YOU! And I hope you’re right about the majority of cops doing the right thing no matter what.

      57. there won’t be any egypt or tunisia moment, where everyone realizes what is going on and attacks the regime… how do you all expect people even to figure out what is happening?

      58. Fire on us for what?
        That’s an important question that nobody is asking.
        Will they fire at us for not opening our doors to voluntarily get on a FEMA bus to some camp?
        Will they fire at us for not taking a vaccine?
        Will they fire at us for not accepting a chip implant?
        What about refusing to relinquish our guns?

        Sure they may fire if we’re throwing rocks at them in the streets, but while at home minding our business, I don’t think so.
        They should think twice about stepping on 100 million armed citizens (who’ve been stocking up heavily the last 2 years) that outnumber ALL military, cops, FBI, ATF, Blackwater combined 100 to 1, for they wish to go home alive each night as well.

      59. GOOD WORDS Dave.

      60. @ Dave
        good points..dont give them a reason, it has to come down to them drawing first blood, or firing on innocent people minding their own lawful business, before retaliation

        Mardochee Augustin
        very good points

        as you can see with my post above, I support being your own man, I would never provoke a war, but would never back down from what i know is right.

        let the sheeple listen and follow orders from them, I never read anywhere in my constitution that i have to surrender my arms, or leave my home, because they “say so”

        I have some retired military in my family, I also have some friends and family in LE..this subject has come up..they arnt crazy  and are very aware that this would be a bad idea.

        there will always be the ones that will tow the line, even if its not the right line..it wont take long to either educate them or erradicate them, but remember it will be their own choice to step over that line, and if they make the wrong choicee to go against the will of the people, they wont get a second chance to wake up

        For the most part , i feel the preppers and smart ones wont be their primary target..when The S hits the fan
        the preppers wont be out pillaging and plundering, they will be bunkered down providing security for thier families, and working on survival..
        its the druggies, entitled ones, gang bangers and lawless that will be the front line nut cases..those are the ones the cops and military (in ML) that will be dealing with those who will be killing just to kill and steal..LE will be too busy with them, and so will we. We will have to defend our homes and safety from the lawless..not so much the cops or military..I think they will have their hands full, but not with our type

      61. “Those in the military want(ed) to be in the military, thus they were more likely to buy into military groupthink and its attendant mind control and propaganda.”

        I don’t think a blanket statement like this is really appropriate.  That’s a hard sell. 

      62. @ SgtSlick, Tom, others

        Here is the dilemma I have in mind:
        1.  The orders are to shoot at citizens.
        2.  The reward for being obedient is that your family is first in the breadline & will be protected & fed if you do it

        Wouldn’t your family come first?  If everyone else was starting to starve and you had the chance to keep them fed?

        SgtSlk:  “Not one person here has even considered that if things got that bad in the US how many of those volunteer soldiers would not be thinking of their own families and loved ones and what danger they might be in?”

        I would rather ask you now then ask you then.  Thanks.

      63. There is one difference though, the American People is armed to the teeth, unlike all of those folks in Egypt, Lybia, etc, etc, etc…So before the gov decides to “maintain order” by the use of force (shooting at the People), they better think twice, the results will not be the same as the ones of those other countries. My opinion only.

      64. I can’t believe this ridiculous conversation.  I am a retired cop.  My  friends are cops.  They have families and they will get laid off right along with everyone else. We aren’t going out shooting people who are marching because they are hungry.
        Everywhere you live there is the family of a soldier.  Those soldiers are going home to take care of their families.  This isn’t Egypt.
        People who do the most complaining are the dumbest.  Do you want protection from the police?  BECOME A RESERVE POLICE OFFICER!  BECOME A VOLUNTEER FIREMAN!  JOIN THE NATIONAL GUARD!  HELLO!
        It isn’t ‘US vs “Them”.  We are all one nation.

      65. Individual incidents of some trigger happy law enforcement officers hardly serves as a descriptive mechanism for law enforcement as a whole, or the military for that matter. While I enjoy this blog, this is a prime example of the type of sensationalism so often employed by traditional media outlets. As survivalists we should never engage in such practices and concentrate on practical matters, and as it pertains to this blog concentrate on more practical information.

      66. They went over this last night.  When the resources run out, those in positions “above the law” (police, government types, so forth) are going to take from those not above the law.
        We’ve created a nation where a policeman can shoot you for really no reason beyond the word of a doped-up “confidential informant” willing to sign an affadavit.  Even if you are killed and the shooting is totally unjustified, the cop will suffer no repercussion whatsoever.  They won’t even lose ONE DAY’s pay over it.  Are you really so confused as to why people are not willing to trust the police?
        This conversation is not ridiculous at all.  We need to focus on this topic non-stop.

      67. I think if we want to know how our military and police will initially engage a popular uprising on U.S. soil, pay close attention to how Iraqi forces perform during the developing uprising in Iraq. As the Iraqi soldiers and police were re-trained by U.S. soldiers and police, it seems logical to me that they would use crowd control tactics similar to what we could expect here in the U.S.

      68. I figure there to be a few isolated incidents where order to fire on unarmed civilians would be obeyed or a hair trigger incident would cause firing, but because of this I would expect some of the foreign troops now in the U.S. for training to be utilized for the more aggressive roles. More foreign troops to be imported as it gets worse. Look at the mercs Qaddafi is using. As for LEO, there’s a few bad ones that would do it for sh!ts & giggles, but most LEO would protect & serve until the situation was nearing out of control and then take care of their homefront. You’re pretty much on your own, so follow the law of the land. If you’re the type that likes to loot, pillage & rape; be ready for a bullet or a rope. Battlefield justice only takes a few seconds.

      69. Comments…..if you are in a place where you should not, be doing something you should not be doing, then you just might get shot, or arrested… staying out of the fray is your personal responsibility to yourself and your loved ones. anything else is pure lunacy.

      70. Comments…..While serving in 1977 this conversation came up, my comment was I would stand with my fellow citizens and defend them against those following un Costititutional orders.

        My Cpt told me to keep my yhoughts to myself.  This is a concern, will our LEO’s & military will have the courage to stand down.  Gangs & criminals are a different story.

      71. MA: You are in NYC. Everyone is a stranger there, so everyone is a threat. In Scottsdale we’ll have pizza and beer ready for the cops, NG, and troops when they arrive: all three of them.

        Remember folks no need for death squads when nerve gas will subdue the masses of bad guys for hours. The military will just pick’em up like firewood and haul them off to the FEMA camps for YOUR safety!

        Tom: MA says he is a tea bagger, but I think he is a commie. He is always against the military, the cops, and the country at large. Most of the time I think he is just trying to spread propaganda and fear to those who can be swayed by it.

        Mostly he is just full of shit.

      72. Great discussion tonight Mac. I thank the LEO current and retired that posted tonight. In The South we trust and respect our LEO, military and guard.  When I’m at an ATM downtown, I’m looking over my shoulder in fear of entirely someone else.  My Brass is meant for thugs, and i get giddy about the idea of proving my point 16 times before I re-clip.  I’ll stand with LEOs – not against them. I sure as shit won’t be in a crowd throwing hot flaming bottles.  Shoot me if I do.
        There will be chaos soon. Right now the union leaders are trying to pick a fight at the expense of their mostly innocent well meaning members.  Stay away from it.
        Frankly, I’d rather have any LEO in my bunker than the fat ass mushroom or the blowhard GD creation. I’ll take my chances with a well trained officer whose risked his life daily for us vs some white ankled Oprah junkie with a keyboard.
        The Meek will inherit the earth…  Thugs will die trying.

      73. The ruling bankers have troops stationed all over the world to conquer “one world disorder.” But when comes to protecting U.S. citizens, they try to sell you, the gov’t does not have enough trained people to protect the entire country.

        (I thought that the police and the military are trained  to keep the masses in line and to prevent chaos.  This is the way it has been done in this country and others for many centuries, why is the U.S. unable to do it now?)

        They want to be known as the super power of the world and have law and order, and the people around the world are jealous of the U.S.  But when comes to protecting its own citizens, the ruling bankers can’t – Don’t have enough money, trained people or know how. 


        1. Don’t forget the U.S. has the best weapons, highest technology, and endless laws and methods to control its people.

        2. Currently, the U.S. is about to use military action to interfere with Libya’s internal affairs. 

        3.How come when it comes to protecting the banker’s interests all over the world, they have plenty of money and ground troops, but when it comes to protecting the U.S. citizens, again they don’t have enough people  –  It’s called “Pure Propaganda” or “Bullshit” !!!!!!!!!!!

        Do not buy into the elite’s propaganda.  They want to cause anarchy in this country, so it will destroy itself and will allow them to rebuild a “New System” or a “One World Order.”

      75. Interesting comments
        They basically fall into two camps
        1) will shoot
        2) won’t shoot
        Should I trust in a police/soldier pulling their pay/benefits/retirement from the government? Ahhh… would this be the same government that painted itself into the current situation?
        Police/soldiers will have bills to pay,families to provide for …along with that is the mindset of someone who bought into that line of work to begin with. It other words, there will be conflicting elements tugging at them, immediate basic concerns along with fainter, altruistic ones.
        Do I have any faith in them and would I be willing to let myself in any way be dependent on their judgment? Heck NO. As we know from life in the U.S. ….. immediate gratification inevitably comes to the forefront.  Someone employed in law enforcement or as a soldier is working to support the status quo.  Repeat… they are working to support what is presently in place.   Folks, you tell me … is the status quo something to support on not.
        As for me, I say NO.

      76. Just so you are all aware of the numbers you are speaking about.
        US Military-1.5 to 2.2 Million most deployed overseas
        Federal, State, Local Law Enforcement- 850,000(that is being generous)
        American Gun Owners – 100,000,000 and growing every day
        If they sent the Military to get your guns the ratio would be 500 to 1. Add in the law enforcement number it becomes 500 to 5.
        I say to those who want to come for my weapons, “MOLON LABE!”

      77. Nothing brings out the tin-foil hat like the idea of law enforcement & military policing riots.
        Look, I’ve met a lot of soldiers/cops who were dicks, like any other group, but the only time I see anything like this happening would be in a NBC containment scenario, or something like that.
        Food riots…I think they’d watch like the army in Egypt mostly did.
        Sure, they have fired in the past in WV and Kent state. My family came from those coal camps. That was the birth of the unions I’m sure most of you want done away with.
        This is the same argument made against Freemasons. Illuminati BS. Just because some people in power are not to be trusted, doesn’t mean the whole group is susceptible.
        I just see a lot of fear, paranoia, anger, and hyperbole. Get your preps done, watch the trends, and chill the fuck out.
        I like Mac, but I think he stirs the pot with stuff like this.

      78. Let me share with you a dream I had last night.  I got pulled over by a cop.  He was a black cop, and I am white.  I had my girlfriend and her daughter with me.  He was being very rude and abusive so I tried to look at his badge number.  He saw that and it made him mad.  So he searched me pretty rough and then punched me in the stomach. 

        A dream yes.  But I just wonder how many people have been harassed and had their rights violated by the powers that be? 

        You dang right they wiil fire on us if it comes to that.  You better believe it.  And it  WILL come to that. 

      79. If they fire upon US citizens, you will never know. They will use MSM to spin the story so you think they were justified. Divide and Conquer is the name of the game here. They will eliminate people alittle at a time.

      80. Bilbo
          nice of you to lay all your business out in the street, they’ll take people like you out first just to make an example and brush up on their training

      81. Comments…..The only thing one can do right now is to remember LEO’s & the Military are you and I, fellow citizens.  The same beliefs of Patriotism, Honor and a belief in the Constitution.

        One may say they will not obey an unlawful order, but the truth is no one will truthfully know until & if that time comes.  The best thing we can do is to talk to our troops about these concerns, I do all the time.

        As a Veteran I know my line in the sand, I knew it at age 19.  In our troops own mind they must know where their line in the sand is.  They morally and lawfully are obligated to disobey an unlawful order.

        Our LEOS & Military is the “Arm of the People, not the Muscle of the Government”, share your concern with them, its easy.  Not long ago at a Viet Nam tribute I approached 15 active troops, we comfortably had this conversation.

        There always will be that percentage that will not act in our favor, what percentage, 29 Palms survey says 24.7% will fire on fellow citizens.

      82. iF THIS SUITE EVR HAD ANYTHING positive TO SAY, IT WOULD BE CREDIBLE. but, IT IS ALWAYS A CONSPIRACY THEORY OR TOTAL ANNIHILATION BUT A govt WHO IS GONNA kill ALL theIR PEOPLE. please-grow a brain and post a article that is credible .

      83. The good thing about visiting this website is that no matter how much food & supplies I’ve got stored, I always decide to go buy more.
        People who see my water supply probably think I’m weird, because my storage area is beginning to resemble a small warehouse. Not too bad if you’re spending $4 for more than 30 bottles of water.
        I decided to go hit the range this morning after reading this.
        I don’t doubt that SOME police and military personnel may go rogue but by and large I highly respect the men and women who represent the United States, who wear that uniform. If anything I wish I had military training. It’s one thing to own a gun or two and fire it at the range – it’s another to actually undergo combat training.
        God bless you all, God bless the great United States of America, and God bless all you heroic servicepersons – active duty, retired, or veterans. I hope everyone is prepping and safe. And God bless the US Constitution as well.

      84. I see many of you believe that most military will betray their oath. I think it will be the same as the military on our streets now. Now they wear blue or brown. They are militarized police. Don’t even try to claim they are not. What we see now is that if they do fire there are few repercussions. There is a percentage.
        One thing I do know, if they are ordered to fire on crowds like in Libya, and they do, it will lite a firestorm. The armed public will INSTANTLY fear any police or military. Its very close to that now. While some of the military or police may not take their oaths seriously, armed Americans do. Any mass death of people at the hands of military or police will turn the switch from “tolerate” to “kick ass” and you will have a firestorm sweep the areas where military/police are holding people hostage at gunpoint. Think about the Afghanistan from hell times 10,000. Its one thing I would hate to see. Americans aren’t poor, uneducated heroin and goat famers. We are educated and we have guns and will far greater that piss-ant towel heads. Oh, you never see it on TV. TV demeans Americans. Real Americans aren’t a majority but they’re not a tiny slice either. Piss them off enough (like by SHOOTING at them) and the military will be looking for bodies with metal detectors, not cadaver dogs.
        In that csse (where the military would no longer be viewed as “our guys”) they would be the invaders. They are considered that anyway by most real Americans. They work for the military industrial complex. They are only honorable because they’ve been brainwashed to believe they are “protecting America”. How can people that have been stripped of all Constitutional Rights be “protecting America”? This is one of the biggest lies of the century. Were they protecting America in Vietnam? Korea? Gulf War 1? 2? The War on Terror? How about when they recalled your plane as they passenger jets hit the towers? The only real people protecting America these days are the scant few militias that are left. The official military wants to have a monopoly on violence so  they can misuse it at their will. THEY DON’T LIKE MILITIAS! The militias will *NEVER* fire on civilians for anything but defensive reasons. To do so would be to put a dishonor on yourself that would be unequaled.
        I used to be pretty pro “War on Terror”. In the beginning it may have had some merit. Now, however, I see through the propaganda. The only reason for the War on Terror is to pass not-laws (not laws because they are un-Constitutional) to allow the US Corporate Government to more closely monitor the people, the militias and to keep their power and priviledge. There is a *REASON* the founders wanted militias and not a standing army. Standing armies *MURDER*. It is their business. They’re masters demand it so they can make their profit or exact their control. Citizen armies protect. It is their *FAMILIES* they protect.
        My apologies to any military personel reading this message. I’m sorry if you don’t see the truth of who and what used you. You probably went into the service to make a difference or to “serve”. I’m sorry that didn’t happen. You served the corporate masters that used your tax funded labor to pad their bottom line. Your inentions were good. The results? Probalby not so much. If the results appeared good, it was simply a propaganda stunt.
        I will, of course, have my snakebite kit handy. I’m sure there is plenty of venom headed my way.

      85. Just information, I havent read it all yet..but its interesting, maybe not on this toppic but the over all toppic, Yes I think so
        be informed, but also seek the source, and know the players


        just another media outlet

      86. Just information, I havent read it all yet..but its interesting, maybe not on this toppic but the over all toppic, Yes I think so
        be informed, but also seek the source, and know the players


        just another media outlet

      87. just something that is on toppic, and just happened in Michigan..

        Nahh we dont have anything to worry about..its onlly mistaken identity..
        and nothing was done about the brutality..
        and in the story “they say” they mistook her for someone with a gun and armed and dangerous…so what if they just gunned her down in “mistaken identity”…
        police state? yeh..I think so to some degree,, over reacting steroid eating cops maybe? maybe.
        Net Ranger..whats your take on this?

        Deputies who yanked woman from car by hair are cleared

        Two Kalamazoo County sheriff’s deputies who yanked a woman from her car by her hair have been cleared of using excessive force in a case of mistaken identity.
        Sheriff Rick Fuller says the deputies believed Michelle Selbee was an armed suspect who had been shooting at officers. When they realized they had the wrong person, they fled the scene last October.
        Fuller said Friday that an investigation by authorities from outside Kalamazoo County cleared the deputies, Larry Czarnowski and Nick Mihalek.
        Fuller says the officers believed they were in danger. Selbee is surprised to hear the deputies have been cleared, telling the Kalamazoo Gazette, “I don’t see how that can even be possible.”
        The Scotts woman has a civil lawsuit pending against the department.

        a law suit, yeh good luck honey..they already for got who you were, and what happend ..because the higher ups said so.
        bet this never goes anywhere and these cops are out there..never reprimanded..
        you do the math

        stories like this or close to this are happing every day all over the USofA

      88. Durrango Kidd I never stated I was against police or against military. For that you are wrong. I have the utmost respect for our military and police. Also I take it great offense when you claim that I am a commie and hate this nation. America is the greatest nation on earth,there is no other nation that gives its people freedom to speech,protest,bear arms. Never have my comments been pro communism,anti police like those left wing radicals. I know you don’t like me and I do not care but to call me a left wing commie who hates this nation is a grave offense to me. My parents were immigrants from that hell hole called Haiti and they taught me to love America. All I do is comment that this debt binge we are going through is unsustainable and at some point the rubber will hit the road.

      89. Comments…..I have a feeling that some of the folks here that really think the police or military are out to get them have never served a day in their life.  They must not know any police or military either.  I am a veteran.  My husband is active army.  We will both be home with our children and select extended family.  Anyone we know on active duty is more concerned about making their way home to protect their own families.  The whole “young kid soldier raised on XBOX” out to break down your doors, rape the wife and kids and eat all your food for fun senario is unrealistic.  Some of you need to calm down and get back in touch with reality.  One poster listed many interesting articles about how the military has gone crazy.  They’re all raging lunitics on anti-phycotics looking to rape and kill.  I’m all for alternitive media but just as with MSM you need to consider the source.  Some of these are exaggerated.  If the system breaks down to extent everyone talks about, cops and soldiers won’t be getting paid either.  Not too many people I know work for free.  Any small number who are ignorant enough to follow uncontitutional orders against their fellow citizens won’t last long in the chaos anyway.  It seems to be some of the trigger happy paranoid preppers who are having a problem thinking calmly and clearly.  That is the only thing starting to freak me out. Get a grip!  Do your preps.  Stay out of the chaos.  Protect your own home and family.  Good Luck and God Bless

      90. Any one having difficulties posting here?

      91. I think it is important to note that both sides of this debate are right in a way. Most police and military personnel would of course never fire “on their own”. However becoming convinced that a group of hungry folks from the poor part of town (who are going to feel the pinch of collapse early) are all gangbangers and criminals is step one to being brainwashed into killing your fellow citizens. While resistant to killing folks like themselves, our police and military are trained to kill “others” who are threatening. Don’t kid yourself. Being middle-class and white does NOT make you immune to being labelled and dehumanized as an “other” of some kind. Whether you dismiss lesbians, african-americans, and liberals as less than human, or you dismiss gun rights activists, patriots and libertarians as less than human you are becoming divided for the benefit of the wealthy. We won’t kill our own, but we are scarily susceptible to redefining our own as other and gleefully pulling the trigger. The missing ingredient in our resistance is common ground. Examine your own hatreds if you want to truly resist them.

      92. Of course cops will kill their fellow citizens, they do every day.  Most are just bullies and thugs.  But that will be their downfall since most people hate them and once the SHTF they will be the first targets.

      93. @ j r
        Most cops are not bullies and thugs.  Yes, there are some bad apples but no different from the proportion of bad apples in any other segment of the population, if not – much smaller.  Most cops are hired because they are people of honor and integrity.  You watch way too much TV.  I’d like to see how fast your fingers dial 9-1-1 if God forbid you’re ever involved in a crime.
        We can only hope that when the merde hits the ventilator our military and LE will not follow in the footsteps of the Germans before and during WWII.

      94. @alhadiel
        I won’t dial 9-1-1, I’ll dial 9mm and hope I don’t have to “answer”.  If I do, my involvement will be small, about .356 in diameter (the diameter of a 9mm bullet) and 10 inches long (the approximate diameter of the human head).
        Perps around here know: 9mm is the first call. 9-1-1 is for cleanup.

      95. Gotta go with NetRanger on this one.  Calling 911 is for idiots.  The cops here (county sheriff) is at least 30 minutes away.  Add in all the posts we’ve seen on this board about cops disarming citizens (removing weapons for “safekeeping”), and it will be a cold day in hell before I call 911.  I don’t need them militarized thugs coming to my house, not for any reason.  If broken into, I’ll shoot first, then relocate all weapons, ammo, valuables, jewelry, money, medicine stocks, and PM’s off premise, THEN call 911.

      96. personally. I dont see a purpose in calling 911..at all.
        to me cops are just glorified janitors, just there to clean up and implicate..

         Remember your meranda rights?..they read “anything you say can and will be used AGAINST you”..no where in there does it say maybe used for you or against you..it says can and will be used against you..got it?
        its called shut your pie hole, they aint your friends..even when they try to play that devide and conquer game or the good cop bad cop game

        they sure as hell dont deter home invasions or someone bent on following you to take you out,, they cant be pro active, they are reactive..thats not necessarily their fault, its just the way it is..

        Think straight..here is a senario

        Do theifs, plunderers, and rapists say..”hey honey, if i dont come home tonight from my night of pillaging and stealing, make sure you call the cops, this is where i’ll be”

        No they dont..therefore who is going to know you dropped that sack of shit in your livingroom?, back yard out building etc….no one but you and him, and he’s dead (he better be dead because a dead man tells no lies.).

        where im from we have a Castle Doctine..and it allows me to protect me mine and my property..
        but i sure as hell dont need to be arrested, disarmed, and thrown in jail for the night while the “Janitors” go pilfering thru my home.
        Also leaving my family to not be able to defend themselfs..retaliation is a factor here people

        clean up,, bag..and kick his ass out on the freeway in the fast lane..no ones going to miss him..you did the world a favor , one last thug for anyone including the cops to deal with..
        9X out of 10 they have prior recods and the cops wont be surprised when they find him shot up..

        Oh..no ballistics on a 12 guage at point blank range, home defense

        completely different senario if you have to drop a thug out in public with your .44 or 9 or what ever..than you have witnesses and such..911 will already be called..totally different then a home played issue

        I want to make something clear as all get out, i have nothing NOTHING against cops or military personell..until they have something against me..
        I respect them if im respected, I will support them if my rights are supported..This is a 2 way street with me

        cross the line, all bets are off

        March 4th, 2011 at 11:56 pm
        I’m not sure if it’s will shoot or won’t shoot you believe about our LEO/military…but just to let this sink in..

        They will be some of the first to not receive their pay/salary/pension/retirement/benefits when TSHTF..first to be bankrupt will be the local, county, state gov’ts…haven’t you been reading the reports???


        March 5th, 2011 at 11:33 am

        Which is why we women are urged to lock the doors, call 9/11 as soon as pulled over…in an isolated spot??

        We’re told to NOT pull over EVER…call 9/11 to verify that someone is in that area…

        Times…they are achangin’!!!

      99. Our police are 99% rogue assholes where I live. This isn’t just an opinion it is a fact. They get away with so much and have killed 8 people in the past few months that weren’t even armed. One poor sap was crossing the street in a crosswalk, the officer said he was on a critical mission when he was probably texting his gay lover. They are cowboys here! Maybe if we actually saw prosecutions take place for their bad behavior we would have more confidence in police. But as it is we don’t.
        The main issue with military (regardless of what a couple people have posted) is Black Water will be there with them as they were in New Orleans. Black Water is a rogue group and not under the Constitution but a high paying contract. You get an 18 year old kid and Black Water mentally disturbed police/military reject mixed together and you have a recipe for ultra violence. What happens is they kill by distance which removes the personal ism of the act. But also once you kill your first human the second one is pretty much just procedural without emotion.

      100. Good Blog, lots of good comments, thinking about this topic now, is a good idea.
        “Oathkeepers Rock!

      101. Comments…..this is a pretty good and informative blog…it is really great for taking the temperature of a rather well rounded group of citizens…….one thing i notice on articles like this is that the comments seem to practicallly vibrate off the page with fear…fear of the govt., fear of those sworn to uphold laws and protect, fear of those who do believe tshtf and those who do not believe. it makes me feel better to know that there are others out there like myself who are preparing for the worse to come yet still living their lives as sanely and logically as possible.  it helps also to know that there are some things that we have absolutely no control over but that we can take the responsibility to do what we can.

      102. MA: Glad you straightened that out because I thought for sure you were a left wing radical proposing the disintegration of America like our commie friends in Russia who have suggested that from time to time; and which you parroted on this blog not long ago.

        But I also don’t believe that you have any American military experience to draw upon when you suggest our troops will fire on undeserving Americans etc, or make other negative comments about them.

        Don’t base your opinion of American military or American cops on the third world retards in Haiti posing as LEO’s which you may have experienced there as a child. We know the quality of our people. They are US.

        And one last thing: consider getting out of NYC if you can, as soon as you can. It will be a “ground zero” when the S finally HTF.

      103. Caryn: Thats not fear vibrating off the page its paranoia!!! 🙂 We are all sociopaths!!!

      104. “GO talk to members of LEO and Military yourselves, ask them what they would do and what they think their buddies would do,”
        …I HAVE, and you wouldn’t like the answer.

      105. Some fair minded comments here, but TOO MANY PARANOID, L.E.O.phobics in the crowd.
        Bad attitudes toward any particular group can turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy. When someone thinks all cops are bad, then nothing good will come from it. Only unnecessary confrontation or misunderstandings.

         How about following what Martin Luther King said concerning judging individuals by “…the CONTENT OF THEIR CHARACTER.”? Cops or military folks can do things right 99% of the time, quietly and unreported–but they make one screw up in a moment of stress and uncertainty and it hits the news 24/7. That’s not right.

        I’ll stand with any law-abiding law enforcement officer or military. I’ll watch their backs as long as we’re all keeping our oaths to defend against “..all enemies foreign and domestic.”. Most of us are smart enough to know what the U.S. Constitution says and who the real bad guys are.

        Some of the attitudes on this board are just screwed up. Accidents waiting to happen in my opinion. What ever happened to treating others as you would want to be treated?

        For the paranoid cop-haters out there, next time you’re laying in a ditch after some horrendous car accident or from being beaten and robbed–are you going to turn away a police officer who comes to help you?

      106. Wow! This topic just keeps crankin’ out the reactionary comments from people. Oh, wait…if I say any more I’ll be right there with them. On second thought I think I already am…well rats. Since I’ve already stepped in the manure I may as well track some more into the house, right?
        Just wanna say that MOST cops probably are fine upstanding people. And they have families to protect and all that, just like the rest of us. And if they were ordered to go out and shoot innocent people they’d refuse. But what if they are in the earliest stages of shtf and during the first few days/weeks they honestly believe the crap they see on tv and hear from their superiors?  In those instances many of them will still be trying to “uphold the peace” or whatever in their own minds. In those situations most of them will honestly see the protesters as the bad guys and they will act accordingly. Also, we need to remember that all cops today are willingly enforcing LOTS of unjust laws. I will say in their defense that they dont really get to pick and choose which laws to enforce. But they are nonetheless voluntarily doing a job where they are enforcing unjust, unconstitutional laws. They do it every day. That’s what bothers me. It shows that they don’t think or dont care about the rightfulness of the very laws that they go out and enforce. That’s why I think that more than just a few rogues or rambo-wannabees will be doing the shooting.
        One more point in defense of the LEOs- anytime you’re in a situation where somebody is throwing rocks, gasoline bombs or bullets at you you’re naturally gonna throw whatever you’ve got right back at ’em. I think most of us would agree on that. As for me personally, I’m not going to be out there with the rock throwers. I think I’d rather sit out the opening rounds. Now, if you want to have a shootout with nerf guns, count me in. (as long as it ain’t a high caliber nerf gun)

        As for all of my previous comments: please disregard everything I’ve ever written. I’m sure most of you have. It was all probably just a reaction from my medication…

      107. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_federal_judge_arrest

        perfect example of how they feel they are above the laws they are trusted to enforce

        15 days!
        what a joke.

        these are the people in charge my friends, you think you can trust your life and future with these types ?

        dont fool your selfs intot hinking these are isolated incidents..they arent..just 99% of them get covered up and swept under the rug.

        these are the people Judging you and I

      108. this is also a big part of the problem.

        and alot of times they get the old..”administrative leave”..or ” pending an investigation” line..these guys are on “desk duty” and still getting paid ..
        some of them are caught, yes..but many still do this, and continually get away with it..

        if you dont think when shit gets out of hand, that a roid packing cop wont shoot you or anyone else..theres a wake up call on your roster

        cops , giving cops a bad name, they are doing it to themselfs. either they clean up their own house, or it could be cop on cop violence soon, if it hasent already happened

      109. this ..is just Jersey..

        Published: Sunday, December 12, 2010, 7:30 AM     Updated: Monday, February 14, 2011, 3:02 PM
        The Star-Ledger identified 248 New Jersey law enforcement officers and firefighters who obtained anabolic steroids or other testosterone-boosting hormones from Jersey City physician Joseph Colao.
        Here’s a breakdown of the departments they came from:
        Asbury Park police …….. 1
        Bayonne police …….. 12
        Bayonne fire department …….. 2
        Bedminster police …….. 1
        Bergen County police …….. 1
        Bergen County sheriff/corrections …….. 7
        Bloomfield police …….. 1
        Brick Township police …….. 2
        Cliffside Park police …….. 1
        Clifton police …….. 1
        Deal police …….. 1
        East Orange police …….. 1
        Eatontown police …….. 1
        Edison police …….. 8
        Edison fire department …….. 1
        Essex County sheriff’s/corrections …….. 6
        Fort Lee Borough police …….. 2
        Franklin police …….. 6
        Guttenberg police …….. 1
        Hackensack police …….. 1
        Harrison police …….. 1
        Harrison Township fire department …….. 4
        Hoboken police …….. 10
        Hoboken fire department …….. 2
        Hudson County sheriff’s/corrections …….. 14
        Jersey City police …….. 40
        Jersey City fire department …….. 27
        Linden police …….. 1
        Linden fire department …….. 1
        Lodi police …….. 2
        Monmouth County sheriff’s …….. 1
        Newark police …….. 4
        Newark fire department …….. 2
        New Milford police …….. 1
        N.J. Department of Corrections …….. 16
        N.J. State Police …….. 3
        NJ Transit …….. 12
        North Bergen police …….. 1
        North Hudson fire department …….. 3
        Ocean County sheriff’s department …….. 1
        Ocean Township police …….. 1
        Old Bridge police …….. 1
        Passaic sheriff’s department …….. 18
        Paterson police …….. 7
        Paterson fire department …….. 1
        Port Authority …….. 1
        South Hackensack police …….. 2
        Union City police …….. 8
        Union Township police …….. 1
        Weehawken police …….. 2
        West Milford police …….. 1
        West Orange police …….. 1
        Woodbridge police …….. 1
        In some counties, sheriff’s officers are members of the corrections department. In other counties, the sheriff’s department and corrections department are separate entities.

        I would be sure that this is also going on in our Military?
        and many if not all police departments..its a cancer sure to come to a beating near you..trust em? not for a second



        The bill, HB 1938, makes it a civil penalty for ANYONE working in a locally owned airport to install or operate whole-body imaging equipment — “including a device that uses backscatter x-rays or millimeter waves, that creates a visual image of a person’s UNCLOTHED BODY and is intended to detect concealed objects,” The  penalty is capped at $1,000 per day per violation.

      111. A couple of years ago, I looked into the level of foreign troops being trained on our soil, and the hand that feeds them. That would be the UN. The UN is in no way, no matter the propaganda they spin, a humanitarian organization. Their primary purpose is to organize troops, to overtake and control the lands they seek, and the populations they look to control.
        We currently have troops from over 30 nations TRAINED right here in the US! We have Afghanis, Mexicans, Koreans, Germans, Chinese, and on and on and on. My question is, how many of our population realize this?
        To this day, ‘we’ hire out mercenaries in foreign countries to do our dirty work, when US troops will not. Many are sent into foreign lands to gun down populations, and acquire whatever target is set forth. In return, our state dept. and the UN, guarantees these foreign fighters US CITIZENSHIP for ‘doing the deed’. That’s right, we take the worst of the worst, and dangle a carrot of citizenship and a small parcel of land to those who will do what is asked of them.
        One more example of how serious this is on our own shores. Katrina. Mentioned many times. How many are aware of the public statements made from our gov during that time, when Mexican troops paraded down Louisiana’s streets? When citizen went into an uproar over this, we were clearly told that “You should not worry about them. They are unarmed, and not organized in any fashion”.
        Onlookers and residents clearly stated the opposite. They were very organized, parading down the streets in their jeeps, carried the Mexican flag, and were VERY well armed!
        The fact is, they were given free passage into the states ‘just in case’ our own troops got cold feet. Something to consider.

      112. p.s. So in case there is any thought of a ‘Red Dawn’ type invasion on our lands, we should all be well aware of the number of those foreign troops already here, ready to roll. All under the protection and guidance of the UN. Now maybe people will understand why we still give so much money to that blatantly corrupt organization. US troops, and what they will or won’t do, is already accounted for with this contingency.
        Two years ago, I believe the count was north of 200,000 such troops. They did not go back to their homeland. They are here, and waiting for the signal.

      113. Dennis you are living in a Red Dawn paranoia. First off foreign troops have been training in America for decades for their own domestic security. Second if there a wrol scenario in the states bringing foreign troops would complicate the mission and piss off Americans. Americans would not stand to be policed by foreign troops. Third if there is a dollar collapse it would not effect us only but the entire global economy would be plunged in a hyper depression. Remember the saying “If America sneezes the rest of the world get a cold.” I do not see why our government would bring in foreign troops,it would not help in their cause and it would cause more defection and anger in the population. Those Mexican troops in Katrina was an isolated incident. it was wrong for it to happen but in a shtf scenario every city would be in a Katrina type of collapse. Mexican troops can barely stop armed drug cartels,let alone armed nationalist Americans who are fighting for their homeland. So no foreign troops or foreign mercs will not be used.

      114. Dennis,

        “…Two years ago, I believe the count was north of 200,000 such troops. They did not go back to their homeland. They are here, and waiting for the signal.”

        Really? Where are they stationed? Name the military base or bases where these teeming thousands of (foreign) troops are hiding out and we can go say hello. We’ve trained foreign troops for decades–nothing new there–usually in relatively small numbers. Not much to worry about there. But then again, they MIGHT be hiding in your closet or under your bed?

        Here’s a reality for you. GANG MEMBERS IN THE U.S. PROBABLY OUTNUMBER your ficticious 200k “foreign troops” by about 20 to 1 or perhaps much more.
        I’d be much more worried about them, especially as we suffer further economic pain and cuts in law enforcement budgets. This is translating to lay offs of much needed officers.

        Gangs are the “foreign troops” among us that I’d be concerned about.

      115. NW Fisher I agree with you. Gangs are the worst of the worst. Those who shit about cops do not understand that the thin blue line is there to protect us from these gangs who have no morals and no feeling for human life. Here is a video by Yankee Prepper in youtube to make you guys understand.

      116. @ Mardochee:
        “Those Mexican troops in Katrina was an isolated incident. it was wrong for it to happen but in a shtf scenario every city would be in a Katrina type of collapse.
        You’re starting to sound way too much like the O-administration. This is a real problem with this society. It has nothing to do with paranoia. That is one thing I am not. I am a clear, decisive, and resolute individual. But to dare use this “isolated incident” talk to state your case is just plain ignorance. I mean no offense. But ignorance is plaguing our society right now.
        There’s too much talk and downplay of conspiracies out there. The collusion between our gov, Fed, and central banks is a clear example of conspiracy. They exist. Ignore them, and you’ll be blindsided by what’s to come. Better start taking a wider view of the world you live in, and get serious about what’s real and what’s not.
        @ NW Fisher:  The bases can be looked up, and researched. They are in the south, along the Gulf Coast, amongst others across the nation. You’re giving way too much credit to those that are quite able to keep such troops hidden from public display. Maybe you’d like to take Mardochee’s stance on this one, and call it all an isolated incident? Do you really think such powers that be are not thinking well ahead of the rest of us, in terms of which troops will and will not perform when asked to do so?
        And yes, the bribery of foreign mercenaries in exchange for citizenship is very real. So before you go off half-cocked, maybe do a little of your own legwork on this one.
        My gosh people, the very existence of false flag events on our land should remind you to what extent a government will go to. Time to get real with yourself if you think those are all wild imaginings of the masses, as well. Rumsfeld just did an interview when he was asked about Building 7. His response was, “What’s Building 7? I’ve never heard of that.” Calm, cool, collected, and the clear intonation of a sociopath. No matter what you believe about 9/11, for the secretary of defense to ask “What’s Building 7?” goes beyond the realm of reality.
        Wake up.

      117. And let’s not forget the tried and true practice of compartmentalization. That is a tactic that spans 9/11, UFO secrecy, and likely, the training of foreign troops as well.
        Each member has a task, but none knows how their task fits with the next guy’s. No one has the entire picture, but a few at the top that control the final product.
        So use your imagination (Based on history, even). Is it that far fetched to imagine our troops training foreign troops with the ‘assignment’ of training them for their respective, homeland? Yet, they never go back, and maybe even remain stationed at secretive bases, much in the same secrecy of FEMA camps?
        You’ll have to be at least as creative as the elite if you’re going to make it to next week during these times. And I sense, you watch too much mainstream news. Prove me wrong.

      118. I’m going way off the conversation here but what the heck……..   I’m getting back a couple thousand dollars that the government stole from me for working.  I want to put it into some sort of solar.  I don’t want to go off grid.  I’m not looking to invest tons of cash into this.  I have just a tad more than 2 thousand bucks.  What would be the best items to purchase?  I’m looking at kits.  Something I could get a start with.  Any ideas.  I live in northern Mi so I’m not expecting lots.  I’ve been a bit scared off by all that’s out there.  Seems pretty confusing.   If you would rather just email me directly you can at [email protected]   It’s an old account I don’t use much.  Thanks!
        Back on topic….. Friday I had lunch at a place sorta out in the middle of no where.   Snowmobiler’s like to go there.  They have a “backroom” where you can go as a group to eat.  As I was sitting there eating a dozen or so dudes came out.  Anyone of them could have kicked my ass.  Same haircuts, same style of military dress.  Turns out they were all “off duty” police of some sort.  My 19 year old son made a comment about how they all looked like they were just looking to go off on someone.  They didn’t look like Barney Fife.  I would have a hard time trusting any one of them although I would sure hope I could.  Whats with the Hard Ass look?

      119. @ Bill
        Your probably not going to get too far with a couple of grand for solar. Not that I would want to talk you out of it, but when one goes the solar route there are some basic questions to ask to see if it’s feasible to suit your needs.
        Budget ($2K in your case)
        Objective (what do you want to power? Lights? Radio? Appliances?
        With $2k you could get a complete system but unless you either have extremely energy efficient appliances or DC appliances or you simply want to build a “grid tied system” that feeds the power directly back into the grid (which basically reduces you electric bill), it’s almost cost prohibitive.
        What you’ll get for $2K
        Batteries 2 maybe 4 – 6 volt
        Solar Panels 100 to 200 watts
        Charge controller
        Cables and fuses and misc.
        Panel mounts
        This might help, at least give you some ideas. I’ve purchased some items from them and their basic literature is helpful.

      120. Dennis,
        You said, “…@ NW Fisher:  The bases can be looked up, and researched. They are in the south, along the Gulf Coast, amongst others across the nation. You’re giving way too much credit to those that are quite able to keep such troops hidden from public display.”

        First of all, I’ve got a very wide worldview. I’ve also been in the military. Have you? You seem to think all military bases are like “Area 51” hiding tens of thousands of secret foreign troops waiting to be unleashed on us. You said there’s 200k of them.
        We’ll let’s just imagine that they’re spread across 20 military bases–20,000 per base. NAME ONE U.S. MILITARY BASE (within the U.S.A) WITH 20,000 FOREIGN TROOPS stationed there.
        Name one base and tell me where they’re hiding all those guys (feeding them, training them, housing them, providing medical services, bus trips to town, recreation, laundry services, etc. etc..). GET REAL! Think about it. Stop believing the nonsense. There IS more than enough real stuff for us to worry about.

        Now, if we’re talking drug cartels with their billions and associated gangs within the U.S.–THEN we’re talking reality. If we’re talking totally out of control corruption at the highest level and our country in dire trouble fiscally and morally, then we’re talking reality. 200,000 foreign troops hiding out here. I really doubt it. I’d worry a LOT more about 10’s of MILLIONs of hungry Chinese soldiers (excess males) coming over to the U.S. and Canada in Maersk container ships in the next 5-10 years.

      121. Bad math in my last post.

        Shoulda said, 20 military bases with 10,000 per base to make up that mythical 200k foreign troops waiting to get us. (Maybe Freeze Dried in Mylar bags waiting to be re-hydrated and jump started?)

        Oh well….it’s all bogus anyway. I was just doing a little “what if” lesson.

      122. 9/11 was a false flag attack as was the shoe bomber and the underwear bomber.
        Massive illegal alien invasion, massive outsorceing of American jobs, massive gov spending that can never be payed back, the most people on food stamps “ever”
        My tin foil hat works perfectly, this CONgress is guilty of treason on the American people.

      123. @Bilbo
        I suspect you feed your chickens with store bought grains? If so, how will you adapt when grains no longer available? Eat ’em? The chickens, that is.


        One doesn’t need to be paranoid or live in fear to see the growth and development of the new generation of young  “SWAT” cops, juiced up, violent, wired ever so tight, ready to taser or shoot for the slightest provocation, definitely out of touch with the “serve and protect” oath. I’d say today there are fewer good cops than bad cops. And worst of all, I think they actually enjoy being nasty.
        “Nine years ago Human Rights Watch published a report entitled, “Shielded from Justice: Police Brutality and Accountability in the United States. The report stated: “Police abuse remains one of the most serious and divisive human rights violations in the United States…”


      125. Police Are Twice As Likely To Sexually Assault You And Five Times As Likely To Murder You

        “IT’S true!  According to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting statistics, between January 2010 and September 2010, 31 kops per 100,000 committed homicide and 73 committed sexual assault. In comparison to 100,000 of the general population (this includes blacks, whites, Mexicans, gang members etc) only 5 citizens committed homicide and 29 committed sexual assaults.

        If you have a choice to mingle with a crowd of 100,000 kops or 100,000 citizens, it’s more dangerous to hang out with the police.

        I’m still amazed at the number of Americans (mostly the older) who still trust persons wearing a uniform of authority.  The older demographic was brainwashed so well they do whatever their preachers, police officers, politicians or judges tell them to do.  It’s this “authority worshiping” and blind obedience that led America to its current police state that houses 25% of the world’s prisoners but contains only 5% of the world’s population. Our parents and grandparents were duped into giving away our freedoms for a pretended security…”


      126. I wouldn’t blame the US, problems on the older generation. We can find a lot of blame for the younger generation. Younger people to day has never done a real days work. They think everything should be giving to them on a silver platter as for following the law, we respected a man with a badge. I would love to see some of you smart ass kids run your mouth to a cop back in the 60’s. You would only do it one time. As for would the Army or police shoot at us. What a dumb question. If someone were shooting at you would you shoot back? Damn right they will shoot back . Who in the hell wouldn’t. We have to many nuts with guns waiting to shoot the town up . I will take my chances with the good guys , over you militia types.

      127. Dennis said: 
        “To this day, ‘we’ hire out mercenaries in foreign countries to do our dirty work, when US troops will not. Many are sent into foreign lands to gun down populations, and acquire whatever target is set forth. In return, our state dept. and the UN, guarantees these foreign fighters US CITIZENSHIP for ‘doing the deed’. That’s right, we take the worst of the worst, and dangle a carrot of citizenship and a small parcel of land to those who will do what is asked of them.”
        The mercenaries that you said are in foreign countries to do dirty work often work for Black Water ……  But you didn’t say Black Water is also hired by the ruling elites.
        We read a lot of complaints about “Black Water”. Yes, they are mercenaries disguised as a security company.

      128. Dennis said:  1).  “A couple of years ago, I looked into the level of foreign troops being trained on our soil, and the hand that feeds them. That would be the UN. The UN is in no way, no matter the propaganda they spin, a humanitarian organization.”

        FALSE.  The UN does not have enough people to help other nations every time they have a problems, but have thousands of troops in the U.S. for years is false.  Also the UN does not intervene with every nations internal affairs or train for unforeseeable chaos.
        The troops that you mentioned who are training on U.S. soil to prepare for the coming chaos are NATO troops, not UN troops.  The N.W.O. puts the puppets in charge of the NATO nations. 
        2). And you said: ” Their primary purpose is to organize troops, to overtake and control the lands they seek, and the populations they look to control.” 

        Answer: This could be true!

      129. Dennis said:

        “We currently have troops from over 30 nations TRAINED right here in the US! We have Afghanis, Mexicans, Koreans, Germans, Chinese, and on and on and on…”

        China and Russia do not belong to the NATO alliance.  You’ve probably seen some Asians, but they were not Chinese. 

        Since the elites hate and criticize China about human rights, they will not use the Chinese for the coming chaos.  They probably were Filipinos.  There are a lot of Filipino immigrants in this country……..   You can see they are heavily favored over the U.S. citizens for jobs such as the Post Office, healthcare and many other sectors.

      130. European American
        I think I’m more interested in a small portable type unit.  Something I could charge with solar or my generator if need be and use for what ever purpose I needed.  I realize I’m not going to power much but a radio, a couple small lights, charge my laptop, that sort of thing.  Like BJ pointed out to me, wind would make more since if I was going off grid or close to it.  I live on a hill and it’s windy all the time.  I just like the idea of using solar to power some things.  Thanks for your input.  I like the link you sent.  Tons of information.

      131. correction:

        Dennis said: “We currently have troops from over 30 nations TRAINED right here in the US! We have Afghanis, Mexicans, Koreans, Germans, Chinese, and on and on and on…”

        China is not a member of NATO nations.  You’ve probably seen some Asians, but they were not Chinese. 

        Since the elite criticize China about human rights, they will not use the Chinese for the coming chaos.  They probably were Filipinos.  There are a lot of Filipino immigrants in this country……..  
        As you can see they are heavily favored over the U.S. citizens for jobs such as the Post Office, healthcare and many other sectors.

      132. Bill’s inquiry about solar for around $2000 is doable.  When I first inquired about doing solar I was told it wouldn’t work because I was in the Pacific NW. I apologize in advance – as this is off topic.  But it may help someone with a major part of prepping. So warning, this is about solar and skip this read  if not of interest.
        From another post – by Lady Hawk –

        Not only do I live off grid using a combination of solar and wind power, I use to sell and install (and I required the owner to work along with me) basic 12v systems including two to three panels, charge controller, inverter, two deep cycle or one 8 D (cat type) battery, wire and cables for waaaaaay under what is posted here.

        Key word “basic” and what could it operate? Computer, TV, radio’s, lights, crock pots, bread maker, 7 cu energy star freezer(s), dehydrators, cooler fan (kind you pour water into the reservoir), water distiller, heating blanket as examples. This basic system will not operate: Your 120v coffee maker, hair dryer, hot water heater, refrigerators, electric appliances with heat elements as examples. Some of those could be used as 12v appliances or on propane.

        I’m going to research putting such a system together at today’s prices. If you are interested in what solar will operate for your needs, turn over each item you want to plug into the system and check the label for how many watts it will use. For example, on the back of my bread maker there is a UL label. On it is an area that says 120v 430W 60Hz. (to simplify, that’s like (4) 100 watt light bulbs and (1) 30 watt bulb.) My water distiller is 120v 580W 60Hz.

        Making a list of priority items you need to operate in a SHTF, will give you an estimate of the size of the system you can live with. I’ll be back to post what I’ve found out on size and cost late today as I’m getting ready to feed the critters and go to work.

        Part 2

        My introduction to solar was over twenty five years ago and every piece of equipment (excluding batteries) are still in operation and functioning beautifully. Started with (3) 45 watt BP solar panels @ $600 each. Morningstar charge controller $60. Freedom 1000w inverter $400 and four deep cycle marine batteries $50 each. Another Freedom 1000w was added along with a Windseeker $600 wind turbine later when I could afford it .

        The inverters were set up where one unit handled the “house” type needs. 12v Lights, communications=CB’s, shortwave, radios, TV entertainment center, (pre-computer), in ceiling (Fantastic fan) and By-Cool 12V swamp cooler, awning lights, chargers for drill and power tools, electric chain saw. Those plug ins are on one wall. On the other wall are plug ins for the “kitchen” side. Water pump, bread maker, dehydrators, Food Saver, 2 beater mixer, 24/7 three crock pots, (when not being used to cook, filled with water to heat and scoop out water for use for small clean ups) -saving hot water heater propane. Crock pots also bake and steam.

        I removed the forced air LP furnace as it pulled 6 amps and replaced with catalytic heater, using no electricity, just propane. Heat/cooking is supplemented by the cast iron wood burning stove/oven. There is a two burner LP stove. Corning ware coffee pot (makes the best coffee, no metal after taste) and matching tea pot. Cast iron and enamel pots and pans. I live a simple but comfortable life. Using lots of (non electric) hand tools and appliances like As Seen on TV chopper, salad spinner, egg beater, can openers.

        Ten years ago, gifted two of the 45 watt panels and the remaining one is supporting the communication station as a stand alone along with a couple of older batteries. Replaced with 100 watt panels and added another inverter, 2500w Heart Interface. Added a couple of energy saver freezers, 5 gallon water distiller and 1 gallon counter distiller, Aero Gardens and apartment size washer/dryer combo. Can’t run both washer and dryer at same time, or darn near anything else. For me, it’s two loads a week. The dryer is used for about ten minuets with dryer towels which seems to make the clothes soft and then they are line dried. Heavy loads go to laundry mat.

        I mentioned all the devices that are plugged in, but not all the devices are running at the same time. I unplug devices not in use. With a basic system, usage is monitored closely. Solar now works on cloudy, rainy and snowy days. (Of course, you brush the snow off the panels and they work fine off of snow glare.) Adding the windmill is a real plus. It usually kicks in when the clouds start covering the sun. Like before a storm, the wind picks up or when it becomes night, a good breeze. A great combination.

        This is where I’ll probably die on my sword trying to explain how solar works my way. The panels and turbine generate the energy. The charge controller regulates it, in our case to 12 volts. If we have 12 volt (cigarette plug type)device, it can use that energy directly and be turned on like in using a hair dryer. If it is not a 12 volt appliance, and is a household 110volt hair dryer, it must be “inverted” (change the 12 volt to 110 volt). This is the job of the inverter. It can only invert the amount it was designed to and the measurement is in watts. Therefore the different numbers – 400 watts, 1000 watts, 2000 watts etc tells how many devices totally the number of watts can be plugged in.

        At this point, the system is working fine. You are drying your hair with either a 12 volt or 110 volt device. Then, the sun goes down and/or there is no wind, the hair dryer stops because the system is dead until either the wind or the sun comes up. This is where batteries come in.

        Batteries are where the surplus energy the solar panels and turbine has generated gets stored for use when the system is down or only trickling in. A storage reservoir. When the system is down or dead, you drain the energy from that reservoir. The larger the reservoir (the number of batteries) the longer you can do without the panels and turbine.

        So if you only have solar panels, and it is stormy, gloomy and rainy, you may be only getting a trickle of what normally it would be on a sunny day. Pop quiz. You could still be with power because? A). Your battery storage reservoir. (An aside, if there is power at a neighbors, plug in an extension cord and use an auto battery charger at 10 amps and connect to your battery system, it will replace the panel generated energy till the sun returns.)

        Battery weight was an issue for me those traveling years, so four batteries was the max. Later, being stationary, set up a power station with eight AGM (high tech) $700 each batteries. ( I could because I was a distributor of the manufacture – more on this in a later posting on how to reduce your costs) It was overkill. With everything in use, excluding washer and dryer, barely drained the battery array. Not good for batteries. Was constantly plugging in stuff. Why so? Batteries work best when they are drained and refilled, drained a lot and refilled. Drained a little and refilled. Mine were not getting drained at all. Kinda get the picture? Sorry, I’m not very technical. Any one wanting to clarify or correct any of my comments, please, please jump in.

        What I found online for a basic solar system. These are comparable to my original set up. 240 watt solar panel. (39″ x 77″) $735 free shipping. (Mine was only 135 watts) Morningstar without/display 30A charge controller $127.40 plus shipping. (Later had updated mine with display, bells and whistles $250- not needed in basic system).

        Inverters – Heart Interface Freedom 2000W 12 volt $1200 or Xantrex (a Heart Interface product) Pro Watt 2000W true sine wave $412 both are plus shipping. (If info wanted on true sine wave versus modified will try and address on request.) – mine is modified on 1000 watt units and true on 2500 watt unit. The Pro is a decent unit, but the Freedom is one for SHTF. If dollars are tight go with Pro with this caution. Newbies tend to over load – using more then 2000 watts. (Inverters surge and is another posting for later.) but when the Pro states 2000 watts, it means it. Many of these are USA products too.

        Batteries, my AGM’s are going on 13 years old, and will parcel them out on other projects around the place. I’m looking to replace them with 8D cat (like in heavy equipment) batteries. They have the thickest lead plates and are water filled. Learned how to recondition the lead acid batteries, which can be done three to four times. This makes sense to me given a SHTF scenario. Unfortunately, the AGM’s can’t. So add about $70 each to your costs.

        For s*hits and giggles looked up a wind turbine and the one found looks like the same one I have and the manufacture appears to be the same, different model name – Sunforce 12v 400w for $499.95 free shipping. Hmmmm – this is going on my list as a back up/replacement.

        So total costs. Using the Pro Watt, four $70 batteries and the wind turbine equals $2500 – That leaves about $400 dollars for shipping, solar protected wire, battery fuse bar, small circuit breaker box and other related items. What do ya think?

        Did you do your watts list? What are some of your items and numbers.

      133. Dennis,

        Think about it, common sense will tell you, in the coming chaos the Wall Street Bankers will ONLY use their own or certain groups who they support and are loyal to them. 

        The Wall Street Bankers will not use the Chinese, because they will go home, bad mouth and expose them.

      134. Most Americans today are extremely naive and believe only what they learned from their pathetic public school education and from the television.  Most learned nothing in school and their reality is shaped from an early age by the television.  That’s why they fail to see how deep the shit really is in America right now.  That’s why they think everything is fine because, after all, they have their part time job and that’s good enough to buy Bud Light and watch reality TV, and they even got an iPhone – by maxing out their credit card.
        American troops have murdered American citizens dozens of times in incidents well documented through American history.  Some examples are cited in other comments to this story, but there are many more.  The fact is that aerial death drones will be murdering American patriots in their homes before the decade is out.  The fact is that the troops are largely sadistic murderers.  They are trained to obey orders and kill the enemy.  All the elite has to do is reframe protestors and patriots as “terrorists” (does this word even mean anything these days?) and it’s game over.
        Already the DHS has declared military veterans to be potential domestic terrorists.  This is an easy segueway into using the active duty forces to round up/murder them, as they are the ones with the training and skills to pose a legitimate threat to the New World Order.  Some rednecks with their Remington 700’s ain’t gonna do much but get blown up by Hellfire missiles.  But the veterans that have been fighting the guerilla’s in Iraq and Afghanistan know their tactics and how effective they have been.  They know explosives, they know hit and run, they know the importance of recon before action, they know that direct conflict against an adversary like the U.S. military is impossible – but a drawn out, hit and run, guerilla war is feasible.
        But don’t think for a second that the police and military won’t kill you without a second thought even if they simply see you walking around with a rifle slung across your back.  In a WROL/SHTF scenario, they’ll figure it’s you or them and politics and notions of “rights” won’t mean a thing.

      135. Jane, I appreciate all of your thoughts on this, but I am not confusing Phillipinos for the Chinese, and I am talking about the UN, and not NATO. The entire organization is a cover for the crimes we perpetrate under the guise of humanitarian assistance, and peace-keeping. No one said they helped ALL nations. The fact is, they’ve really helped none, and have only enriched themselves over the years.
        The UN has been laden with corruption for many years now, and their actions are speaking much louder than their words. Peace-keeping and TRUE, BENEFICIAL assistance to nations in need, is the furthest thing from their minds, despite their public proclamations.
        Ban Ki Moon is a puppet to the Nth degree. Kofi Anan, and his son were right there with him on the corruption scale as well.
        That all being said, we are about to go into a contract with the Chinese for the coming world currency, under the watchful guidance of the NWO. Yes, the dollar is about to be dumped. Essentially, has been already. It will be a metals backed currency. The Wall Streeters answer to Bernanke and Company, who answers to the elite. This is all a dog and pony show for the masses, as the Chinese will own us, and we already recognize that, as we have no intention of making good on our debt to others. Two sides of the same elitist coin in the end. Just look at the embarassing praise Obama and Geithner continue to heap upon Hu and Co.
        So we all will answer to the whims of those at the top, which includes what troops will train where, and for what purpose. Chinese subs are off our coasts as we speak. To attack us? Or something else?
        Seem that such Chinese troops may exist, as the Chinese leadership now have quite a vested interest in preserving many properties and secrets in this nation.
        Then again, who am I to say? I hope you’re right.

      136. What do you know about subs Dennis?  Speak to me, I know subs and you will have my respect…..

      137. 1).  Dennis, you and I see the same things in different ways.  It’s not what you said, it’s more about what you did not say and your misleading others with the wrong information. 

        You said the UN troops are trained on U.S. soil for the coming chaos, but I said those troops belong to the NATO nations.  And Elites have more control of the countries that belong to NATO. 
        2).  China and the Elites can buy anything they want (in fact they have) but can China get their money back???

        Even the U.S. citizens have no control of their wealth.  With a stroke of a pen, the elites can take back anything from foreigners and its citizens, the elites are the winners here; for example the Japanese lost half of their investment in real estate.
        3). the U.N. is not my main concern, and I have not read any thing about Ban Ki Moon being corrupt at all. 

        I only heard his criticisms against Israel regarding the Flotilla incident.  And he has been asking for more people and financial support for the Pakistan flood situations. 

      138. EA – Thanks again for your input.  I like the wagon setup.  That’s more up my alley to get me going in the right direction.  Start small and add to it if I get all excited about it.
        Lady Hawk – Wow!  That’s a lot of information.  Thanks.  I was wondering if you might marry me?  : )

      139. Chinese, NATO, UN, NWO, Obama, Wall Street, Blackwater, Democrats, Republicans, Illuminati, capitalists, communists, et al…. All but a shadow play.
        “There are thousands hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root.”
        — Henry David Thoreau
        “Cut off the head and the tail stops wagging.”

        — Carlos Marcello

        The History Of The House Of Rothschild
        NWO and The Illuminati Myth


      140. The latest…

        Rothschild Bankers Looting Nations Through World Bank/IMF

        Raymond L’Heureux and Richard Salbat

        Sovereign Independent

        The World Bank/IMF is owned and controlled by NM Rothschild & Sons plus 30 to 40 of the wealthiest people in the world. For over 150 years they have planned to take over the planet through money…

        1849: Gutele Schnaper, Mayer Amschel Rothschild’s wife dies. Before her death she would state, “If my sons did not want wars, there would be none.”


      141. I see #1 is going to open up the political oil reserves (strategic oil reserves) to save is arse.  Does that tell us how serious this is?  Harvard didn’t teach him what strategic means.  This is going to come back and haunt him but they are thinking we will have a short memory, (again).  Maybe we should start to drill again so his wiff can go on vacation (again) with her followers. 

      142. “Of course they will (fire on civilians)”
        Yea some of them will fire on Civilians. But some civilians will fire on civilians as well. A lot of folks on here trying to say it’ll be “us vs. cops” or whatever. Like the Police and Military are some other species of animal. Look, they are people so therefore I don’t trust them, but you all are people to, so unless I know you very, very, very well I don’t trust any of YOU either. And if you don’t know me you should probably return the favor.

      143. Have you never heard about Praetorian Guards?

        There will be always a “Guards” unit which will be loyal to the ruling class to the very end, like the Swiss Guards of King Louis.

        They will fire at civilians, and no they won’t desert since the King is their last refuge. In fact, due to their behaviors, they will face harsh recriminations so they will fight till death, like the SS men at Berlin.
        Have no illusions. The PTB has a better odds than everyone else not in its number.

      144. Comments….. Only one question ? ,   is will militia fire back to protect people.
        Leo, and military will fire point blank, again, and again. Doubt this, look at
        libyian mill or libyian leo.

      145. @bill
        “… I was wondering if you might marry me?  : )…”
        If that’s a proposal, please send picture of tool box. 🙂

      146. I’ve known some fantastic patriots who are/have been soldiers and peace officers and Ive known/know some who are/were garbage…same with everyday people…some gems and some trash..i dont think police and military are as a rule any more prone to be morons than the general populace,frankly…it matters not if you are wearing a uniform or overalls if youre doing whats right youre okay…and if the guys killing you are wearing overalls or uniforms does it really matter?!Ill blast either just as quick if they mean me harm,who here wouldnt? 

        We have to remember these SOBs who are collapsing things and causeing this mess are all about dividing us……blacks against whites,cops and military against innocent civvies, city folks against country boys,its all about dividing people so that no strong resistence can develop,we need to not fall into the trap…..if your gun is pointed at my enemy we are united…if its pointed at my head or my family, you are dead,thats how we should determine whether or not any person is our friend or foe,by their actions otherwise its just kneejerk reaction(see a uniform shoot it? we dont need to go there….WTSHTF you just may find out your newest best buddy  wears a uniform…and your (up till now best buddy(s) just attacked your wife and stole your food supply…think!! Have a plan,prepare and shut up about it….youll maybe live long enough to find out who your friends really are,maybe.

      147. Chaos and collapse is what Zero the Usurper in thief, foreign born current squatter in the White Hut and his marxist, sodomite, and muslim breathren want in this country.  His ties make the KKK look like choir boys — many of us new from the beginning what to expect.  I’ve spent well over $5000 on guns/ammo and got some great deals starting before the election in 08.
        My area will be hit hard — very hard.  Possibly some of the worst.  I’m over the border near Chicagoland.  Chicago, L.A., N.Y.C. will be hit hard, and also because Zero’s community agitators are put in place.
        People need to understand what Zero did as Senator, his ties to Raila Odinga, who he supported and promoted to become President in Kenya.  Supposedly this is Zero’s cousin, regardless, they are from the same homeland.  And after Odinga lost the election, which claimed was fixed… what happened?  20,000 killings, mutilations, rapes as the rogues were unleashed.  Zero fully supported it.  And Raila Odinga is trained marxist (another starlet sent to college in East Germany, trained by Stasi for “the revolution”) and wants to force sharia law upon Kenya.  Out of this bloodbath, as a compromise Odinga gets Prime Minister.  And Feb of ’10 Zero sends him millions of our money for their Constitution and sharia law efforts.  Don’t forget all the dough sent to Hamas and others.  Remember, it was they who got Zero elected with illegal campaign contributions by one time use cash gift cards.  Obambi’s education, acceptance, Harvard Law Review position were all paid for by Saudi Prince Alawad bin-Talal.  His allegiances are to Islam.  Make no mistake.  Liberal fascism, with global communism/islam to take down the U.S.
        My point Zero will try to turn the U.S. into Egypt.  Divide and conquer.  Soros is all over the middle east rioting, Bill Ayers and Dohrn, terrorists trained by Cuban DGSE and who knows who else were there a year ago teaching tactics.  It goes on and on.  That will be brought here to take advantage of an uprising, conflict, chaos, for a political outcome.  More power control.  And this economy is being destroyed by the scum in the White House.  It’s 2011.  We know what works.  What’s being done is on purpose — same with the gas rising.
        Those who oppose the regime are the enemy.  Local police, our military will not totally submit to unConstitutional orders from the Kenyan Klown, they know this.  They will be pressured financially however.  Do this or lose your job, your income. But many will not, such is the American spirit.
        So therefore he’ll need acts of terrorism in this country to happen and that will be done by trained sleepers.  That is, muslims, mostly foreign who are already here.  Aww, is that not P.C.?    Attacks on soft targets  in major cities, but also rural America to create fear: there’s nowhere to run!  They may even attack police stations first however.  That would force the police to not venture out unless in groups, leaving the masses to fend for themselves.  Many ways this could go down, but there is a plan, and the enemies of this country will fail and learn at their own peril.
        We should take into account there may not be a big dramatic massacre against the citizenery as a rallying cry/morale enhancer.  The regime is much more subtle than that.  What started the War for Independance wasn’t the Boston massacre.  It was the nondramatic act but tactical advantage of the British attempting to seize munitions at Concord.  That’s what ignited real bloodshed.
        In similar fashion, we may have to make hard choices, because proactivity will be key.  Imagine a grid pattern.  Big square spaces over a map of your area.  As troops start pouring into your area, setting up bases, HQ’s, then checkpoints will be set up major road sectors. The grid gets smaller.  Then the local police will be summoned back up, reserves.  Then the intelligence apparatus starts (led by feds), that is the spies enter the area.  Neighbors will be enticed to snitch on neighbors.  The grid pattern will be smaller and smaller.  Point is, you will be eventually located and sent to camps or killed.  Still feel like hiding out and defending your house?
        It will be necessary to bring guerrilla warfare attacks to the them.  It’s the only way you will be able to move freely.  It will force them to band together back at their base camp and use resources for a security element after taking losses and numerous attacks/raids.  Outposts will have to be abandoned, leaving less of them occupied and the grid pattern stays wide and open, large squares of unsecure area insuring your freedom of movement.
        Of course, we will also have to remove the tyrants themselves.  Aptly titled “The One Hundred Heads Contest”.

      148. this quote is priceless

        “Son, let me explain something to you. You don’t poke a wolverine with a sharp stick unless you want your balls ripped off.”

        and of what i posted above…look at the bottom of the right hand column to find current threads..
        this has been up a while, so there is a ton of info ..
        Were not alone, and THEY need to know it.

      149. There worst nightmare… the realization of the public that they’re merely a mathematical speck of dirt!
        Although the premise deals exclusively with taxation, it equally applies to politics and revolution.

      150. one question to the people that are writing that police/military WILL fire on the populace: how many of you are/were military and/or police. Do you actually know any military/police or just making your decisions by what you see on TV? Prior/active military/police will be your best friends if things get that bad. 

      151. I know many, have known many and am related to some. The way things will play out and the way things will be presented….they will shoot !!

      152. Military members are not sheep or wolves, we are sheep dogs.  We’re here to protect the sheep from the wolves.  We are not indoctrinated.  We will not follow illegal orders.  We took an oath to defend the Constitution, not an administration, not a corporation, not even a state or local township.  We took an oath to defend the American way of life as outlined in the Constitution.  And we do believe in America’s exceptionalism.  No country is worth giving my life for if it is not exceptional.  Just remeber, Standing Rules of Engagement:  if you are out looting and shoot first, we will use deadly force to defend ourselves and our unit.  My advice, do not partake in unlawful activities, no one likes a looter.

      153. @ John
        If the war in Iraq is any indication of how the U.S. Military behaves like “sheep dogs” then we are certainly in for big trouble here in America. I don’t know if you are in the Military or pretending to be associated with the Military, but either way, I don’t buy your “pledge of allegiance” rant. The U. S. Military in Iraq is not there to spread democracy and anyone with a half a brain knows that. Just check the body count of millions of civilians. THAT’S WOMEN AND CHILDREN! But just to shed some light for your own understanding of how the world works, it’s about economics. Got that? It IS about satisfying the needs of the Corporations, where ever the U.S Military is stationed around the world.
        If you are in the military and are patrolling in our neighborhood, then you are partaking in unlawful activities and you will be a marked man. Got that? Now stick it in your pipe and smoke it.
        This one’s for you, John


      154. @European American, name says it all.  If you want to believe the words of a kid no older than 25 reading from a speech written by some left wing hack that’s on you.  Unless you have a true understanding of how national military strategy is formulated or truly understand that there is evil in this world that must be defeated, you will never come to grips and continue to jump at every conspiracy shadow in every alley.  Millions of civilians dead in Iraq?  Your over counting.  BTW if the military is “patrolling” your neighborhood under Title 32 Authority it is not unlawful.  If you chose to take a shot, have at it, but I’d advise against it.  The military is not made up of mindless, blood thirsty killers despite the lies told to you by the lamestream media and the peace-loving, pacifist (yet violent) left.  I find it ironic that someone so willing to defend their neighborhood cannot identify themself as American without bowing to the multi-cultural lunacy of hyphenated identities.  You want to be European, go back home.

      155. One more thing E-A, if TSHTF and you live in a neighborhood, you will probably be attacked by unlawful looters before the military gets there.  When they do show up, you’ll probably be the first one complaining that they didn’t get there in time to help.  Seems pretty funny to me, every time we patrolled in violent districts in Iraq, the majority of Iraqis liked the fact that it was the Americans patrolling and not the violent sectarian mobs roaming the streets.  For that matter, when the military arrived in New Orleans post Katrina, the residents felt like they were safe again.  Hmmm, makes you wonder.  Unless you’ve walked a mile in my boots, don’t pretend to understand the situations I’ve personally experienced.  I don’t “learn” my facts about reality from YouTube.

      156. Why were you in Iraq, John? What was your primary objective? Spreading democracy?
        How many civilians did you murder? How many women? Children? Again, John, why were you there? Did you make a difference? or totally destroy their infrastructure so the corporations could come in and rebuild. How much of the tax payers money did you waste?
        I don’t buy what your selling because it’s a lie. You want it to sound “patriotic” but what you did over there was genocide. You can say whatever that program in your brain is designed for you to say to justify what you did over there but you will sleep with it for the rest of your life. Its in you, John.  It’s who you are and what you’ve become. You’ll dream about it tonight and tomorrow, next week and next year. You take it with you, forever. I’m truly sorry for you because I know deep inside “what you experienced” has damaged you pretty severely. I hope you can heal…from the killing of innocent humans.
        FYI I despise the Left as much as I despise the right, but I don’t give a shit what you think of me. I’ve never done what you have, thank God.

      157. I’m at peace with myself and God.  You seem to have your own irrational issues that keep you up at night.  Someday maybe you’ll grow up and understand how the real world outside your little bubble works.  It might help if you take off your rose colored glasses and stop fawning over the rainbows and unicorns.  Have a nice life, I’ve got to go live mine.

      158. It’s not about me John, I’ve never killed anyone to satisfy the Corporation. So deflect all you want, and say what sounds good to make yourself feel normal, but…

      159. You make me laugh.  I just saw the web site you’re linked to.  And you say I’m indoctrinated?  Why don’t you take a look at one of the web sites listed under 21st Century Heros (Oath Keepers) and maybe you’ll understand what I’m trying to say.  Maybe if I posted a video on YouTube disputing the facts presented by junior military members whose soda straw view of the world is limited, and post pictures and videos of all the good things we did to help Iraqis rebuild a better country for themselves you’d understand.  After all, it’s on YouTube it must be true.  Yes, we tried to help the Iraqis build a better country for themselves, not one ruled by a tryanical, dictatorial regime that brutalized its own citizens.  More Iraqis died under Saddam than during the war or occupation.  I’d never tell you to believe something contrary to what you experienced personally, what magic do you have that can tell others what they experienced was wrong?  And I was a little higher up on the totem pole (saw a lot more than they did “behind the curtain”) than those kids in YouTube video telling you how evil the military is.  What I’m trying to say is it would be impossible for the “evil” leaders of this country, you seem to hate, to hide the astrocities you accuse them of.  Again look at your own list of 21st Century Heros.

      160. How did you sleep last night?
        You still have yet to answer the questions. Why is that John? What is it that keeps YOU from answering them? Why is it you must justify that I am the problem when in fact it was you that stated that you were a “sheep dog” to protect the “sheep from the wolves”. Is that what you did in Iraq? Who were the sheep and who were the wolves, John?
        You seem to be looking to justify your actions over there for your own mental well being. I don’t care. I didn’t murder or torture anyone. How many children or women John? Were they the wolves? And is life any better there now for the Iraqis?What great democracy system have you installed for them? Answer the questions John! I’m just the messenger. You know what you did over there. You sleep with it.
        You were the terrorist, John, you were the insurgent, the occupational force telling the Iraqi people what was best for them. What did they ever do to you, John? Did they come to you house and kick the door in and rape you and your loved ones? Who are you to tell them you know what’s best for them. Who are you, John? Do you even know? (Just following orders, Sir)
        I rest my case with you, John. because don’t have the courage to answer the questions. You will never be a 21st century Hero, John, and you know the reasons why.

      161. Sorry, but people like John remind me of the senator in the movie ‘Shooter’
        We have so lost our way and muddied the waters. Nothing is clear anymore, there is no black and white, no apple pie no great American beacon of light….just a corrupt and dark land still trying to look like her pretty old self.
        Spreading democracy and keeping Americans safe and free……What a scam that has turned into since WW2

      162. Hey John, or anyone else for that matter….why no comments in regards to the blog and youtube videos I posted??
        The most disgraceful crap on America I have ever seen….those two vids alone should have people in an up roar

      163. @BJ

        yeah i’ve seen those video’s before..proof enough for me back than, and proof enough for me now..

      164. Now the real question..how do we as citizeens stop this from ever happining ever again?

        Im not sure i would ever admit to having any guns..that is probably the first mistake..I doubt any of those guys had a “list” of who and what.

        they took what they were told about, and what they saw, or could find.

        Im not going to say i have all the answers..but would sure like to get as many peoples takes on this as possible to form a strategy on how to avoid becoming disarmed and be made a victim by my own government..

      165. Hey B.J.
        This is just the tip of the iceberg. But thanks for the post. I went there.
        Stay focused on the job at hand.

      166. ?
        March 9th, 2011 at 3:07 pm
        Now the real question..how do we as citizeens stop this from ever happining ever again?
        Once the public statements of gun confiscation are made, the officials need to be notified in a clearly worded anonymous bulletin that any such action is unConstitutional, will be ignored and detrimental to their personal health.  Whether or not their families escape collateral damage is also up to them.  Communication needs to be pleaded to them the consequences of such actions.  Other officials overseeing said officials should be notified as well to rein them in.  If they are in agreement of the unlawful actions, more names are added to the list.
        If attempts at confiscation start with police (outsiders) breaking in, shooting — the police departments, all support personnel in them are fair game.  Again, if one feels so strongly in the belief that gun confiscation is legal and a requirement for their tyranny — then let them give their lives for it.  That will be the cost for stealing people’s freedom.  Or you can stop going to work and not follow un-Constitutional orders.

      167. It will be hard for one home owner to take the big risk, when he is alone, not knowing if his sacrifice of life will make a difference and be the shot heard round the world and start the revolution?? Especially if wife and children are there and need him. Wisdom and strategy are needed for longevity and tactics,because it would only escalate rapidly if shots were fired upon uniforms, even if they are unconstitutional. When unconstitutional orders are followed like the young punk in the video saying he would fire upon Americans, then they become the illegal acting enemy, they are unlawful. Your enemy, and enemy of the state and country and it is your inalienable right to defend yourself. But again wisdom and strategy has to be used. People need somehow under the radar come to the same page at the same time and place or places and unite.




      169. JOHN,

        Yep, you said it well. You represent the best of the U.S. Military. The media rarely discusses the lives saved and the huge amount of humanitarian work done behind the scenes. We know, that’s enough.
        “Military members are not sheep or wolves, we are sheep dogs.  We’re here to protect the sheep from the wolves.  We are not indoctrinated.  We will not follow illegal orders.  We took an oath to defend the Constitution…”

        In the grand scenario of predators, prey and protectors (“Sheep Dogs”) one has to live it to understand.
        Some knuckleheads you cannot school–they know it all. Guys like European-American are probably best described as Dung Beetles rolling little sh*t balls somewhere around the ankles between the predators and the prey. They’re irritating and self-absorbed existing in their own narrowly focused world.  We can take comfort however, knowing  that eventually they’ll do the earth a favor and be converted into compost.

      170. and you have been and still are a brain washed & foolish man

      171. The military and LE/Intel police state apparatus are terrorist wolves that view the citizenry with a predator’s eyes.  Every day they are hunting us, looking for the weak (those in violation of one of America’s 100,000+ laws and regulations) to prey upon.  They are not protectors.  Police almost never stop crimes.  They are predators, hunting us.
        When shit hits the fan don’t think for a second they will hesitate to open fire on the unarmed, women, and children (see: collateral damage, “shouldn’t have brought your kids to a war zone” – they do not give a shit).  Did they hesitate in New Orleans when they confiscated everyone’s guns then murdered unarmed civilians?  Do they hesitate to commit sexual assault thousands of times a day via their TSA branch?  Do they hesitate to intercept every packet sent on the internet and data mine the contents in massive databases with information on every comment you’ve posted and every credit card transaction you’ve made?
        That’s just a few examples, there are many more.  When the time comes there will only be two sides – those on the side of freedom, and those on the side of tyranny.  Those still wearing a uniform and enforcing the rule of the NWO/NAU from the barrel of a gun will be the enemy.  Period.  Their intentions don’t matter.  Their secret reservations don’t matter.
        And they will know that there are people that know what they are.  And that will only spur their war crimes and acts of brutality on further.  Most in the military/LE are sadists and enjoy nothing more than tormenting and dominating other humans.  Dark days lie ahead.  Be ready to fight and die or be ready to capitulate and watch as liberty dies in America…forever.

      172. See SA troops enter brahain, see
        bonus marcyers, D.C. 1930’s, camp wrecked, etc.
        Stig – litz $3T war. . wisconsin, OH NJ
        plan to chop current wages benefits etc

      173. Come on people.  Life is not a video game.  You only get one life.  Let me inject a little realism into the discussion. The thing we should all be focusing on is not following the herd mentality.  Not whether or not shooting may start.  I think we all know the shooting will at some point start.  The trick for all of us will be not to be the ones getting shot at.  So prep.  Don’t put yourself in a situation where you will have to loot to survive or feed your family. 

        I have no doubt that the boys in blue and green will show amazing restraint when dealing with a SHTF scenario but what about when force seems reasonable?  I gar-an-damn-tee you that a time will come when lethal force will seem perfectly reasonable.  And the LEOS or troopers guarding a food convoy or a hospital or a military HQ will open up on the assaulting hoards.  It WILL happen and to those boys facing down the hoard it will be perfectly reasonable to pull the trigger.  If they don’t they won’t live through the minute. 

        To the question will unlawful orders happen? yes absolutely they will.  Will the military and law enforcement follow them?  Some certainly will.  THE USMC conducts an annual survey of the corps.  one of the questions asked is would you follow an order to confiscate weapons from US Citizens?  Ten years ago only a third of respondents said yes to that question.  the last results I saw said only about 25% answered no, understanding that that would be an unlawful order.  This is more than a complete reversal of the ratio. 

        So again the question is why were you at a protest or in a crowd of looters to be the recipient one of those bullets?  Didn’t you prep?  Didn’t you know it was coming? 

        To those members of the military and LEOs who post here: thank you for your service.  Not only what you do in uniform but sharing your experience here.  I urge those of you who cherish the constitution and the society of laws we live in to teach the new recruits what you have learned.  Teach them what a lawful and unlawful order is and when the day comes that an unlawful order comes please be on the right side.  It may in fact not be the majority side.   

        To any of you commenting who have wet dreams of running and gunning across the countryside like its Red Dawn, get a freaking clue.  If it is really that bad out there your life expectancy trying to be a weekend warrior commando is about 3 seconds.  I don’t care how well trained and well armed and well prepped you think you are.  You only have one heart and about a half gallon of blood give or take. 

      174. Cold Dead Hands: “I don’t understand this fascination of thinking TPTB have mind control over ALL the members of Law enforcement and military that they are going to blindly follow inhumane/tyrannical/ etc orders . Any order/law that they themselves wouldn’t want to live under is going to keep the majority of them from following the order/law.”
        Yer dreamin’.
        Count the cops who refused to confiscate citizens’ guns after Katrina… if you can find any to count.  Not just the Nawlins cops, but all the rent-a-cops from other states.  Then come back here and tell me how selective cops are going to be about what indignities they will and won’t enforce.

      175. why not start a counter(fema-nwo)resistance networking website.Recruit members,create chapters in each state,and start planning.

      176. One thought about Law Enforcement firing on US citizens is that these men and women probably wouldn’t like the idea of someone shooting their own families in retaliation. There are more armed citizens than there are law enforcement officers. In the event of total societal breakdown, chances are the LEOs will be looking after their own families rather than patroling the streets. I am NOT for anarchy not shooting LEOs under any circumstances. I’m just saying that when SHTF occurs, NO ONE will be safe. More likely the US Government will bring in Foreign troops (Turkey, India, Pakistan, etc)under UN sanctions than to count on US soldiers to shoot Americans. What American soldier would be able to shoot Americans in one city when soldiers in another city are shooting HIS family?

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