Gun Sales Surge on Black Friday: Over 129,000 Background Checks Flooded the FBI

by | Dec 3, 2011 | Headline News | 218 comments

Do you LOVE America?


    Either gun manufacturers did a fantastic job on Black Friday promotions, or the American people are quickly waking up to the reality that all is not as peachy as it may seem.

    Gun dealers flooded the FBI with background check requests for prospective buyers last Friday, smashing the single-day, all-time high by 32%, according to bureau records.

    Deputy Assistant FBI Director Jerry Pender said the checks, required by federal law, surged to 129,166 during the day, far surpassing the previous high of 97,848 on Black Friday of 2008.

    The actual number of firearms sold last Friday is likely higher because multiple firearms can be included in a transaction by a single buyer. And the FBI does not track actual gun sales.

    Dennis Henigan, acting president of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, said he was “skeptical” of the Black Friday gun surge.

    “I think there may be no real signifcance at all,”

    Source: USA Today via Zero Hedge

    “Gun Sales Surge on Black Friday” Video report:

    Perhaps Mr. Henigan of the Brady Center is right and the fact that this was the single largest sales day for private gun sales in American history holds no significance.

    Or, maybe there is something more to the recent surge in gun sales. Perhaps over a hundred thousand Americans came to the conclusion that rising crime, sustained unemployment, suggestions of apocalyptic meltdown in Europe, and  fear of a potentially catastrophic hyperinflationary depression in the United States are reason enough to have a firearm – just in case.

    The preppers were out in droves last week, and they weren’t interested in the latest tablet PC, 3D television or video game system. Instead, they were stocking up on gear and preparing  for the “possible collapse” of society.


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      1. Just got home from the Nutcracker…am I first?

        • Also, speaking of guns, I have a Henry .22 and a case of really good vodka on my Christmas list, if anyone feels generous!

          • Mine includes a new set of spring bushings for my .45 (polyurethane sucks, but rubber wears out), a boresight check and tuneup for the .338, and a new 12ga. pump action. 🙂

            If Sant^H err, the missus, really wants to get me something, a 7mm would be a good rifle… it’s hard as hell to find .338 ammunition up here in the stores (at least in Portland – in Utah it was easy to get).

            • I think you should really look at getting a .30-06, the ammo is cheap and common as dirt. IMO it is a far better SHTF weapon.

            • I was thinking the same thing…

              I originally bought the .338 to chase elk with, and it’s done a beautiful job doing it. I get a nearly flat trajectory out to 500 yards no sweat, and can hit a 6-8″ circle with it at that distance. It also still has some punch to it by the time it gets out there.

              It does kick like a pissed-off bronco, but the results were always good to me.

              Dunno about how useful it would be up here in Western Oregon, though… Utah and Eastern OR are both wide open, and in most places you have no real hope of getting closer than 300-400 yards to your prey. On this side of the Rockies though, there are trees everywhere, so you can sneak up a whole lot closer.

              Good point about availability, though. Guess I’ll break down and start sniffing around for a .30-06. My only other rifle right now is a Mosin-Nagant M44 Carbine (ammo is cheap as hell, plentiful, etc), but I bought that for historical value more than anything else. kicks like a howitzer, and will leave a bruise on anyone’s shoulder after 50 rounds, guaranteed.

            • @ Odd Questioner, you might want to check with guys at Rapid Fire Arms in Sandy. They are a small shop but great customer service. I recently purchased a handgun from them. A really neat group of guys. They will go out of their way to get what you are looking for. They may have .338 ammo in stock…not sure. Good Luck!

            • GSM – You’re recommendation of the 30-06 is a good one, however, for someone who doesn’t care about reloading, I would suggest the 308 instead. Its a standard military cartridge with the NATO designation of 7.62x51mm.

              I much prefer the 30-06 (I have 3 bolts and an auto). The older m1a1 semi-auto battle rifle is chambered for it. It is an awesome cartridge. For sporting rifles, is probably nearly as popular as the 308.

              But, for the average person the 308 is more accessible and quite a lot cheaper per round.

              Some people above mention 7mm and .338 stuff. Its all on what you’re comfortable with, however, .338 is hard to find and kicks like a mule. The 7mm-08 and the 7mm Mag are both good carts. The 270, also. With much milder recoil and flatter trajectories.

              If you’re not an expert, stick with whats standard. I don’t consider the .338 stuff standard. Its quite an exceptional cartridge but buying a few hundred rounds might require putting up something for collateral while you get a loan.

              Another consideration would be the 7.62×39. While its not a barn burner like some of the afore mentioned rounds, its pretty standard chamberings for many autos. (Mini30, AK47, etc)

              …and its very cheap. I pick the steel cased stuff up at wally world to feed my AK47. They’re running $4.95/20. Figures out to be about $20/100. Almost as cheap as I can get 9mm stuff. (I keep telling my kids I borrowed my AK47 from Osama. Now that he’s dead, I can keep it! He won’t need it anymore. They all roll their eyes and laugh.)

            • If you can believe there is anything to the power of collective thought, gun sales ought to lead one to believe there is something in the wind. I know of two situations today where rifles are going to be given as Christmas gifts. I have an Electrician coming on Monday, he doesn’t want money, he wants one of my tactical rifles. 2009, 12 million guns and 14billion rounds (nonmilitary) were sold. 2010 14 million more guns were sold. I know people that are buying ammunition by the case and not firing any of it. I have bought ammunition for weapons I don’t even own. For barter value, plus it was cheap and I will probably be able to fine AK47s fairly available after all of the ammo is shot out. (A friend of mine got back from the sandbox and stated that an AK could be had for $20 in Bagdad it was the ammo that was hard and expensive to find.)
              Collectively; we, all of us that has any brain function left, smell it like a rotting corpse, it’s everywhere, thick, almost can taste it. And some of us are doing something about it, protecting ourselves.
              But; being the fatalist I believe I’m turning into believes there is something far sinister in play here. Gun sales and the like I am sure has been taken into account and does not play into the final equation. There is I believe a final solution and all of the guns, food storage, precious metal, prepping getting out of debt, none of it will not be at play. I, like you and the others have no idea who is steering this thing. We know who the big players are in the news every night. It is my personal belief that there is going to be every intention to kill a pile of us in the end and not so much a fire a shot. Unfortunately science today has given us this capability.

            • Have you tried wholesale sports on 82nd

            • @POA: Hadn’t even thought of going downtown, but that’s not a bad idea. Same with NSBF’s suggestion, in spite of driving out to Sandy.

              Thanks to both of ye. 🙂

          • If Santa really thought I had been a good girl this year, he could smuggle a Mossberg 500 up here and put it under the tree.

            Oh, and some chocolate truffles.

            • And Daisy–would ya settle for some chocolate covered cherries from Piggly Wiggly??
              Best I can do..

            • I kind of like my chocolate unadulterated, JJ. No cherries, no mint and definitely not any of the gooey stuff in those big “mixed” boxes.

              Just plain, lovely dark chocolate, thanks. 🙂 I’ll be waiting!

            • If you’re talking truffles, Daisy…ask for the best.. See’s!!! I already have the Mossberg…and the See’s truffles are on MY list! 🙂 Shooting and eating fine chocolates…That makes this Lady happy! 😀

            • Santa’s making a list and checking it twice. He’s gonna find out who’s naughty and nice 🙂 I hope you get your wish Daisy!

            • My wife is European. She agrees wholeheartedly on dark chocolate. I have heard it’s actually good for you (in moderation). I grew up on milk chocolate, but find dark chocolate better with tea.

            • Daisy, a Mossy Persuader is a girl’s best freind… to hell with the diamonds. The big ole” BLAM~!” it makes actually makes me giggle like a school girl.

            • Jen10, the sound of a pump action shotgun chambering a bullet is more musical than Ravel’s Bolero. Sigh….Swoon…

              When a guy shows up on my doorstep with a shotgun in a florist’s box and a dozen boxes of ammo in a gift bag, I will know it’s true love.

          • We have a Henry; you can’t have it; we got it from an Amish.
            Care for a youth single shot 20 guage??
            I’m gonna need more than one shot–trust me!!

          • GREAT FIRE ARM! Cant beat an ol henry for reliability.

          • A S&W Model 29-2 (blued, 8&3/8″ pinned barrel, recessed cylinder, target sights, target trigger) is what I asked Santa for this year (and every year since 1972, when the original “Dirty Harry” movie hit the streets).

            Sounds like another verse to Eartha Kitt’s, “Santa Baby”

            • Every time I think of 44 magnum I giggle. Can’t help it. Everything seems a little weak after you run some 180gr bullets out the muzzle with 27gr of 2400 doing the pushing. Yee! Haa!

              18 inches of fire, an earsplitting “BOOM!” and more recoil (at least in my standard Blackhawk) than the average person can handle. Ever see a pop can full of water shatter? Shock is so great the aluminum shatters instead of just tearing.

              Even *MY* neighbors start getting worried when I start shooting that.

          • Netranger,

            When are you going to write us a article about reloaded? With you vast knowledge I sure you could help us all make some good choice of what bullets, powders for handguns and rifles and primers have work best for you.


        • Yes, you are #1 in your world and first… American made Henry is a GREAT choice and CEO would be proud.

        • Ah yes, the Nutcracker! The sure sign of a well-rounded person is the ability to appreciate those pas de deux’s danced to old Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky’s music, AND being able to appreciate a good shootin’ iron.

          Mama Bear, I hope you get a whole case of Stolichnaya for Christmas AND a 22. (or an AK as a stocking stuffer as well).

      2. Doesn’t anyone know to go hit the gun shows anymore? You usually get them goods cheaper (esp. if you know what you’re looking for), there’s no mandatory waiting period, and no governmental paperwork.

        • Gun shows were getting quite a bit of “special attention” from the BATF around here for awhile. They were concentrating on “parking lot” transactions, which apparently THEY were initiating. That is no longer in the “headlines” but I’d still buy inside.

          • Yep – you can do all the swapping and private transactions you want inside (I normally keep mine in there anyway, so that if I do get something, I can sniff around for accessories and ammunition).

            • still have paperwork and stuff with handguns though, right?

            • Depends.

              If you trade/swap/buy from a dealer table, then certainly. If you buy/trade/swap with another gun-show goer, nope.

            • @OQ, To purchase a handgun in our wonderfully liberal state, don’t you have to register it? I haven’t been to a gun show in years…not really sure how they operate now. We have quite a few guns but they haven’t been touched in years…except the 22 rifle. That it gonna change though. The hard part is finding a place to practice…I can/have on my property but don’t want to draw attention. There are a few rock quarries in the area…but too snowy this time year. I did find a gun range that offers lady’s night for free! Woohoo! Top of my Christmas list…extra clips and a laser sight.

            • Dunno – I bought all of mine in Utah. There have been a few gun shows out here, but they usually only happen when I’m either busy, or when I was broke. I’ll hit the next one and find out, though. A quick check online shows there’s one coming up on Dec. 16th, at the Expo Center in downtown PDX… when I’ll be at the in-laws. 🙁 I’ll see about sweet-talking the missus into letting me go anyway.

              I have no kick against the registration portion per se, because when TSHTF I doubt there will be any sane way to check up on everyone. People move addresses change, and the National Guard will be too busy to stop and see if I’m lying when the question “do you have any guns?” is answered. I just don’t look the type.

          • I don’t see a problem with trading anywhere, but I’m sure the ATF thugs find a reason to demonize it (“gun show loophole”).

        • OQ, it depends on the state. My state (in the midwest) requires paperwork for dealers. I buy and sell guns all the time with no name or anything exchanged other than other guns or cash.

          But, some nearby states, its not that way. Georgia, for instance, requires full transfers through an FFL dealer.

          Under the 2nd Amendment, if you think you are under the authority of the Constitution for the united States of America, any paperwork or required documentation is an infringement and specifically not lawful. So, transact as you wish. Getting caught might be painful but its certainly lawful and ethical.

          • Ouch… Utah was much kinder about it. They required the 3-day check for dealers selling pistols and full automatics, but that was about it. Anything else was open game.

        • OQ; the gun shows don’t have very many good deals any more, such as pre Obama. Ammo is cheap else where and Academy sports/outdoors stores have quite a few great weapon deals. Also, the gun shows are requiring background checks on weqapon sales now.

        • Go before they are outlawed!!

      3. I’m jealous of you all down there!!!! I wish I was going gun shopping. 🙁

        On the bright side, maybe people are waking up. This could be a positive sign!

        • @daisy just buy yourself a shark speargun, it’s spring loaded and will definitely tear through body armour, and the body within it… that is something you can have in kanuck land and would scare da’crap outta any badboy!

          • Where the heck would you buy one of those? I’m kinda landlocked!

            • @daisy … here buy this one costs the same as a decent shotgun 12 gauge and will definitely knock down any intruder in your home… they’ll ship it to your house direct.


              or buy a cheapo rubber band one and try it out see how you like it… just be careful it’ll go through wall like their cardboard!

              have fun… ;0)

              don’t forget your spears…


            • @daisy yur’ a very ummmm ;0) resourceful lady aren’t you! Ya caught me with my pants down ‘0P wink … I’ll keep the door open for you… stop by any time! ;0)

            • Been awhile since I dove, but check out a dive shop, especially one with a salt water bias. Not too many sharks in fresh water so you won’t find such tools at a freshwater shop although similar items for “fishing” might be available.

            • NinaO

              Surprise! 😉

            • I kinda like the speargun. I’d feel very bad-to-the-bone with that. 🙂

              Of course, with my broadsword I feel like Xena, the Warrior Princess, except in PJs.

            • A spear gun is an absolute must have for home protection. Once the bad guy is pinned to the wall by the spear the cops will know for sure that he was INSIDE the premises when he was discovered and stopped.

            • I like the way you think, Angus!

            • Dive shops are all over in the midwest, maybe in Canadia (?) you would have to use the internet, but I am unsure about your strange importation rules. I once watched as a handful of martial arts throwing stars were confiscated from a returning Canadian. You must have a real problem with throwing star attacks up there! Strange in that I’m sure various sizes of circular saw or cutoff tool blades can easily be obtained at Home Despot.

            • Ben, the throwing star stuff is not unusual. In my state I can sell handguns documentation free from person to person but the mere posession of throwing stars is a felony. We must have a bad history of throwing star murders here too.

        • hahaha… it is possible in canada daisy…just not at wally world… maybe wallys garage…. hahaha

          • I know it’s possible, Eeder. 🙂 I just have this aversion to arrest, ya know? If you buy it legally you are just opening the door to “inspection” by the Mounties and I am not really into law breaking on this scale.

            Canadians are really funny about weapons.

      4. “surged to 129,166 during the day, far surpassing the previous high of 97,848 on Black Friday of 2008”

        Why the surge back in’08?

        Think about it and the consequences of a second term.

        • Ya know, if I really thought that was a possibility I think I’d try to borrow about a million dollars and open a gun and ammo store. Seems to be where the money’s at.

      5. Never mind guns (already got enough).
        I bought more food this past week. Another year’s worth of long life stuff.

        • What? Have enough? I haven’t met anyone with enough, and I certainly am not there, but you can’t really have enough long shelf life food and goods either.

          • No such thing as “enough” IMHO.

            Two years’ worth, plus sufficient seeds to grow more, is what I’m shooting for. Any extra becomes charity goods.

          • I have a buddy that I always gave a hard time bout saying he had enough guns. His response was “I may not have many guns, but I’ve got enough ammo to get ’em busy for a couple months” lol I think he drove the point home pretty good!!

        • Jerry,

          I bought more food last week too. We stopped at our local country store yesterday – sells all kinds of beans, gardening stuff, skives of all kind, old fashioned toys, vegetables, seeds, fresh ground corn meal, old fashioned candy, etc. I noticed the store looked rather “empty” for a Saturday in December.

          The owner said, “I have more stuff on order. I have never seen a week like this past one. People have been coming in and buying everything. Why, you’d think it was the end of the world.”

          Maybe there are more people who are preparing, than previously thought?

          Has anyone looked at Augason Farms long term food storage items available at Good prices!

          KY Mom

          • I have (the long term food bits) – they sell it at the Wal-Marts up here too. Looks okay, tastes okay, and not expensive at all. Managed to get up a decent pile so far out of that (to supplement the Costco bits I bought a couple years back). I buy ’em a couple of cans at a time whenever I’m out there shopping.

            Next up though is one of those water bobs that fit in the bathtub – holds 100 gallons or so, but dirt cheap.

            • Can get the Water Bob at Cheaper than Dirt for about $20. I have some “tote” liners that fit a box that sits on top of a standard pallet. They are about 4-6 mil thick and could be pressed into service as a tub liner. Don’t forget to put a folded towel over the drain to cushion the liner. A tub full of water is pretty heavy. a large sheet of heavy plastic could be pressed into service as well. I suspect that the soap residue would be hard to completely remove from a fiberglass tub.

            • Yep – found it online in no time flat – sent the link to the missus as a hint. 🙂

              I can come up with more info on the Auguson Farms foods, too… just came back from shopping, and you get 200 servings (*not meals* – servings) spread across six cans in a good variety for $62.50 or so. They have a Breakfast Pack and a Dinner Pack. They also sell buckets of wheat, rice, oats, what-have-you. Grabbed a Breakfast Pack, a few cans of food, and called it good for that trip. The prices are in line with what you can get online, and building up a few cans/buckets at a time is a good way to do it without busting your budget.

              So far I’m up to nearly 6 months of food (rationed to two meals a day) for the missus and I, not counting fridge and chest freezer contents, which adds another week. 1/4 of the way to the goal (not counting charity stores) food-wise. 🙂

            • PS: Found a really need food storage calculator:


              It accounts for average appetite and anyone with diabetes and/or requirements for gluten-free foods.

            • OQ, I checked out the Auguson Farms site. Store locator showed the PDX store. Do you know what the selection is like? Looking primarily for the single items…like the bread mixes etc. Thanks for the info on this company. Next trip to town I will stop in Walmart (cringe). Maybe after the holiday’s I can pick up some of their food preps. I already spent this months budget at Costco. Happy prepping & take care out there!

            • Odd Questioner,

              Thank you the link at at Augason Farms for the food calculator. I have been helping my parents get long term food storage. My Dad is diabetic, so this will be very helpful! 🙂

              I wish our local Walmart sold this food. 🙁 Here, we must order online at I found the prices for this food at Sam’s Club CHEAPER than at the Augason Farms website. Go figure! In addition, some items had free shipping and some others free shipping with pickup at Sam’s Club.

              I found a 1 year food stoarge for $898, with free shipping! 🙂

              Also found a 10 lb. pail of Dehydrated Potato Slices for $24.37 and 45 lb. pail of hard red wheat for $20.26, plus shipping.

              KY Mom

            • @NSBF:

              The bread mixes they do have – Not sure about the PDX location offhand, but the one in Cornelius (out past Hillsboro) has a pretty good selection. I haven’t been to the one near Woodburn in quite awhile, but they would probably have it too.

          • has eighteen #10 cans Mountain House on sale for $240.00 until 12/18.11. It is regularly $279.00.
            6 Chicken ala king
            6 Spaghetti and meat sauce
            6 Chili mac with beef.
            That is less than 1/2 the price Mountain House sells it for on their web site.
            Here is the web address.

            • Bookmarked! 🙂

      6. funny this article came up just now
        I was having dinner with my Dad and he gave me a contact number for a relitive of an old friend of ours we used to go hunting with all the time (until he passed away)
        His son Inlaw, got a shot gun of his willed to him and he was asked if he would ever consiter selling it to give me first dibs, well he’s getting a call tomorrow, because this shot gun means more to me by who owned it, and its history, but its a great tool to put food on the table and we used to hunt birds with the same model shot gun. Its not a tactical weapon, but I have that covered
        and I just got a line on a sweet Springfield Hi-Cap 1911-.45
        maybe building guns would be a good job in the USA, seeing how most other manufaturing jobs are non existant these days
        glad I was taught smithing skills, reloading skills, and black powder arms.

      7. The “Sleeping Giant” ., which is the hard working, nose to the grind stone average joe is starting to wake up and is smelling the aroma of government Bull Sh**. Whence awake it will become a no holds barred fight for the continued “Freedoms” for the citizens of America.

        Freedom calls for all of us…, let the call sound loudly and echo thru the dark hearts of those who want to bring America to her knees.


      8. Did anyone read the article I submitted on the previous thread?? Maybe they were all New Mexico residents; seem they are really kicking some government EPA, & IRS butts with help from the great sheriff departments there.
        Go New Mexico. and salute, Guns of America!!

        • I read it just now, JJ. That totally rocked my world!

          It just goes to show how ordinary people saying “Hell NO!!!” can accomplish big things.

          I love New Mexico – I always wanted to live there – this makes me want to even more so!

          • Daisy, it is a beautiful place. Went to Roswell to visit the alien museum.

            People so friendly. Very large Spanish decent population. I’d vote them to be the most friendly, accepting, kind people on the planet. Were I to have to leave my little 30 acre hidey hole here in ????, I’d head to Western Oklahoma or Central New Mexico.

            Firearms open carry requires no permit. But, once your out there you won’t even feel the need for one. The southwest, for the most part, has a goodness about it that is lacking in other areas. Don’t visit there. You’ll want to go back. I find myself wishing I could dig up my 30 acres and move it to somewhere around Black Mesa, OK or 50 miles north of Roswell, NM.

            • You mean Atzlan? Just moved from there a few years ago…

        • Great article! Thanks for posting it here JJ!

        • That was a great post jj, first feel good story I have read in a while! I will not have to drink heavily today!

        • JJ, I’m new on this site and would like to read that article…can you point me to where the “previous thread” is? TY

      9. And the lady that told the EPA to ‘bring it’?? That’s gotta be my mama incarnate.

        • That article you posted is quite inspiring. It makes me want to round up some locals and go have a sit down with our local Sheriff. The problem is, he’s new and was appointed by the Governor when the previously ELECTED Sheriff retired early after several terms. So, I’m waiting until the next election to see what happens with this new Sheriff.

          Anyway, that article is a true testament to the power of local authority to push the Federal bullies back to D.C. where they belong. State sovereignty and the County Sheriffs are like muscles. You have to keep them in shape, otherwise they become saggy and weak.

          • You should see if Sheriff Richard Mack is available. If he is I’ll move to your county.

      10. Most of the people I work with have bought gun’s this year. People are waking up. Not a bad time to smell coffee.

        • She’s just setting people like us up to be painted with the broad paintbrush of “lone wolf terrorist”. This is a pre-emptive strike at freedom fighters, and it tells me that the govt. is scared of those who would stand up for their rights. They want to hush that stuff up so that others will not follow.

        • That bitch may try to arrest the entire state of New Mexico if she and her ‘teams’ don’t have an attitude adjustment–and that’s gonna be fun to watch!!!
          Go Guns of America and New mexico..OOH-RAH!!

        While I’m not in favor of handguns as such,with the things coming down the pike(bet no-one today remembers what a pike is!)Guns DO have a place in the inventory.For personal safety if for no other reason.When Europe finally comes apart it take more than a few big American Banks with it.I can foresee “entitlements”being cut by about half as prices rise.The REPOCRATS will do what ever is necessary to remain in “power”.Even if it kills everyone else.Frankly I think it’s all a run-up to THE CHANGE.
        When that starts to occur,preppers will be in a better place than most,fer better,in fact.If I get a long gun I’ll get a semi-suto shotgun that cambers a solid slug of some size.One of those at closeup will ruin somebody’s day,body “armor” or not.
        Best to All.

        • Handguns do have a place, though usually as a last-ditch or indoor weapon. Otherwise they’re not very useful to anyone who isn’t an expert in their use.

          I spent a couple of years back in 2001-2004 or so shooting local (Utah) IPSC competitions for fun. Never got better than an amateur at it, but it did teach me quite a few things:

          First off, good luck hitting anything beyond 10-15 yards under pressure – and that’s if you’re really good at it. Odds are perfect that unless you practice a whole lot with it, you’re going to miss more than hit.

          Second, the less recoil you have, the better the results (so long as you don’t do anything stupid like under-load cartridges or otherwise reduce the bullet velocity). For instance, I double-up the spring bushings in my 1911 .45 (Springfield Arms), which makes things nice and smooth (though I do have to be careful and shave that second set down a bit, else it interferes with the slide action). I also had the trigger worked so that it doesn’t take so much force to trip it. That means the finger pull isn’t also pulling the barrel downward.

          Third, getting good at one pistol does not mean you’ll be good at others. The 1911 .45 frame I know and love is very skinny in cross-section, and demands to be held a bit differently than a revolver would. Even other automatic pistols will grip differently than yours, so get to know how to best hold the ones you have.

          Fourth, the ‘double-tap’ or the ‘gangsta’ side-grip is a stupid waste of ammunition. Outside of the movies, only a relative handful of people could safely rely on it, and that’s after years of practice.

          PS: A Pike can either be a toll-road, a long stick with a point on it, The very first Star Trek Captain (before Kirk), or a large fish. You likely meant the road 😉

          • Wonderful,great you know what early Americans were talking about.**** for that one.On the gun question,I was looking for some serious user advise on good brands,calibers gages,etc…
            At the last barricade,a good handgun I’m quite sure is a good idea.I DON’T want to kill,but you come reaching for my family and last foodstuffs to leave me to starve to death,then I want to impress upon you that everything comes at a price.
            just sayin’

            • Best to stay with NATO calibers. Buy a rifle chambered in 308 Winchester and shoot 308 Win and 7.62×51 NATO. Buy a rifle chambered in 5.56×45 NATO and shoot that cartridge and .223. The chamberings are critical in both calibers.

              The 308 is good to 1000 yards with heavy spitzer BT bullets, useful to as much as 500 yards for most of us with a lot of practice. The 223/5.56 with a pointed civilian bullet is good for small game & varmints.

              Own a pump 12 gauge shotgun.

              Ammo is readily available by mail/online in the US. Military ammo is cheap; be aware that military FMJ ammo is forbidden at many if not most shooting ranges.

              Handgun semi-autos in police calibers and 45 ACP are good. Try for all metal. A lot of these guns are plastic with a steel barrel liner. Revolvers in 357 Magnum are good. They shoot the Magnum and 38 Special just fine. If you can handle the recoil, 44 Mag which will shoot both the Magnum and 44 Special cartridges just fine.

              Check various manufacturer’s websites. Some of them have good videos about proper ways to handle and shoot their guns. Mostly good information, more valid than many U-Tube offerings.

              Be very sure to comply with all local rules and regulations about weapons. Most places, city, county, state, nation– have serious rules and serious penalties. Not just guns. Knives and anything else are usually covered by the law, one way or another.

          • OQ, great input, I hope your post helps others on here.

          • I heard the ganstas hold them sideways because that’s how they were in the box when they got them.

            • Ben, now that’s funny!LOL

          • OQ, One of the problems I have encountered over the years is not fitting a pistol properly to the usage. I have had numerous pistols, revolver, automatics, single shots over the years and now at the age of seventy two, I have found that a single well placed shot from my 6 inch barreled Charter ARms 22 loaded with CCI minimags does far more damage than several near misses from a 45 automatic. By trial and error, I have found that well placed shots with this particular round and enough of them takes care of mostly anything I should encounter. I have the 44 magnum bunch screaming what about a grizzly bear. I have absolutely no intention of ever being in a place where I might encounter a grizzly and if by accident I happened to be there, I would probably be loaded with something sufficient to do the job like a lever action 1886 Winchester in 405.

      12. Yeah! Guns on “black friday” GUNS! We need more guns! We need enough guns that, when the balloon goes up, we can afford to hand ’em out, and ammo, to those a “leetle” behind the power curve but not baddies. To turn off the baddies.

        And since the gun is such a simple device, it will proliferate beyond the growth of The Beast, always. Landlocked? Stretchy rubber bands + something sharp = speargun, spear the land-shark, easy!

        Good to see people buying something sensible on what, for me, is Buy Nothing Day.

        • I figure that firearms will be useful in the first year or two after a TEOTWAWKI event. However, once the ammunition runs dry, you’ll really need to get up to speed on the archery/crossbow skills.

          • You obviously don’t know how much Ammo is a minimum amount. If Custer had had as much as most of us have, he’d still be shooting.

            • You could have a million rounds of ammunition, but odds are good that you don’t, and won’t.

              Unless you have a metric ton (literal) of ammunition, spare weapons, spare parts for the weapons, consumables for keeping them all clean and corrosion-free, gunsmithing skills, and the means to make more parts?

              You’ll be needing a bow and arrow in a couple of years, no matter what angle you view it from.

              The only exception I can think of is the flintlock or matchlock muzzle-loaders, but only because maintenance and parts on the are so damned easy, and making black powder (as opposed to smokeless) is within the grasp of any high-school chemistry student.

          • When the ammo is gone the sword will be king!

          • 1. last I tried to move it, I’d have to cut back a little to get down to a metric ton. 2. You don’t need to repair guns, just get another one. (Got 5 Browning Hi powers, This is America, Anything worth doing is worth overdoing) 3. All the ammo you need is simply all you can shoot, plus all your important people can shoot, got it.

      13. P.S.
        anyone have any suggestions as to brand or caliber on a shotgun?

        • Mossberg 500 in 12 gauge. Cheap and just as effective as a ‘name brand’ shotgun that you’d pay a lot more for. Get the set that comes with both an 18&1/4 and a 28 inch barrel.

          • Angus,

            Great gun thats what I got mt daughter for her birthday, She weights in at 110lbs so the 12 is a bit much for her but hey thats what she wanted. If you get a chance try out the Mossberg 4×4 bolt action in the 30-06 round I picked 1 up for 300.00 and love it. Plus it doesn’t kick near as hard a the 7mm mag


            Once again I may need to go to gun rehab.

        • 12 ga. is the most common and the easiest to get.

          You’ll also want to consider the ‘choke’ on it – a full choke will give you the tightest group of shot, but you’ll have to aim it a bit tighter than you would have to aim an open choke or a modified (which sits in-between the two extremes of open and full). Some guns have a system where you can change the choke by screwing in a different muzzle.

          Best bet would be, IMHO, a decent Remington pump-action that holds at least five shells, and with either a modified or open choke. The full choke is best for bird hunting, but not so good when you’re trying to throw as much shot in the bad guys’ direction as possible.

      14. went to a Gun show today. Didn’t buy much, don’t need anything. Happy the public is buying, but truthfully I don’t see much reason to worry. Stupid as the Gov is, even it must know there are so many guns out, it no longer makes any differance. If cars were like guns we’d quit making them. I’ve got two 03’s and an M1 Garand ,1943, in the basement.(Never shot any of them. hunt with 25-06, just like the guns) I don’t think the Anti gun people have any idea how much stuff is out there and how long it lasts.

        • Just out of curiosity, what do you hunt with a .25-06? I used to have one a long time ago, but I only used it for plinking varmints (prairie dogs, coyote, etc).

          • In Wyoming, it’s a great antelope, deer gun.

      15. Guns, guns, guns. Started out with a Daisy and a Sheridan, ended up with a Kalashnikov and a Bushmaster. If the homestead sets alite, let the firefighters know, the garage is gonna blow!

      16. Thats IT !!!! only 100 thousand or so woke up from there deep sleep??? OH!!! and by the way, this right to carry permit in all but one state ( ILL) is a complete ruse.If you think for one minute that this is a great thing, I don’t want anything your smokin!!! ?????? WELL MAYBE!!! I COULD TRADE IT FOR A GUN.Heres a thought??? How do you round up all the gun owners who like to say i have a gun and am not afraid to us it??? put them all on a national right to carry registry.Makes it real easy to track em down.

        • kaynine…I guess you didn’t read the New Mexico story, huh?
          On the last thread…great insight to what’s gonna happen if they even try.

      17. Greetings,

        I live in a beach town just outside of LA. The homes that surround the marina (think homes with docks for big boats).
        are expensive homes and each one is quite ornate and unique. Regardless, I couldn’t help but notice today while on my bike ride the number of yard, garage and estate sales. I wouldn’t normally expect to see wealthy people selling their belongings on their front lawn and sidewalks. The estate sale I stopped at (hey, I need a new blender)looked like the family that lived there just vanished in the middle of breakfast.

        Everything in the house was for sale and I mean everything. It had hampers with dirty laundry – it was spooky. What has to happen for a family to abandon their home and everything in it?

        Seeing things like that are why people are buying guns. People are finally beginning to realize that they, too, could end up homeless and they are afraid.

        • Depends – many times, folks will sit in a foreclosed house until the Sheriff comes up and tells them they have two hours to get the hell out.

          When I let mine go (trust me, it was a relief), I moved out months before the bank got around to locking it up and auctioning it off. I did that because I wanted all the stuff that was salvageable, and because the black mold was beginning to get atrocious in there (most things in the garage had to simply be abandoned, or they got soaked in bleach and inspected hard. Fortunately I kept all of my preps indoors).

          Anyrate, in speaking with other folks who got foreclosed on, many of them sat tight until the end, or close to it. This meant they had free rent for up to six months or more. OTOH, it takes a sense of timing, because some wound up leaving before they were ready to, because the bank had an unexpected bit of extra resources to burn through a few other foreclosures, or the schedule otherwise got pushed up.

          • OQ – I also moved out well ahead of the eviction when my house was foreclosed on.

            Two reasons:

            #1.) Who needs to be dragged from their home kicking and screaming if they can avoid it?

            #2.) When I could no longer pay the mortgage and defaulted I felt like I was stealing by staying there “rent-free.” I realize not everyone feels that way and I’m not condemning people that decide to do so – it’s just what I felt was right in my situation.

        • Nickelthrower the garage sales around where I am have been fantastic. We have our McMansions and now they’re emptying out, people are in “jettison mode” and I get all kinds of neat stuff. Mainly I’m after either stuff I can use like boots, clothes, tools, or stuff to resell which means interesting “antique” or “vintage” items, and precious metals.

          A lot of people are VERY leveraged, often the biggest house with the nicest cars in the garage is home to people who are the most overextended and will fall hardest.

          My idiotic little local paper has, on its stupid web site, a poll. Today’s was, Are you going to spend more or less on presents this Christmas? I checked Less, and saw that about 83% had checked Less.


          • That’s funny… I spent “More”: Ammunition, food, a set of maps, driving out to potential new homes in rural areas and spending the night there, etc.

            Best Christmas present so far was in giving the missus a sense of excitement over living in a new community (our current one is okay, but no one talks to each other except superficially), etc.

      18. They know who has them and if they start to take them… Hmmm…
        The govt people will have a “Custer” moment… Where all these Indians come from?
        The only way to get rid of all the guns is to get rid of all of us and they know it.
        Wow, that’s kinda morbid to think of. Happy thoughts… Going to watch firefly today with the kids (the whole series).

        • “They can burn the land and boil the sea, but they can’t take the sky fom me…”

          Browncoats Forever.

      19. Your right to carry comes from God. (Book of Armaments, chapter 5, just past the Holy Hand Grenade)
        The Constitution doesn’t grant you that right, or any other. It just states that you already HAVE them. No gov agency can give you anything. All they can do is take.
        So, why would we submit to a ‘background check’? Get a ‘permit’? Or license?
        Because we are, like it or not, in fear of those who make the false claim that we need their permission to do things. We have gotten so far away from the idea of real freedom (and of course, the responsibility that comes with it) that we no longer have the will to exercise that freedom. Sadly, I count myself among the fearful.
        We seem to be waiting for some ‘event’ that will make it safe for us to again exercise our rights. Not necessarily a shtf that would bring suffering to people, since most really don’t want to see folks suffer. But some sort of shake-up among the powers of government that would put them in their place, strip them of their arrogance, reveal their true tyranny, wake up the masses, and embolden us all to assert our God given freedoms.
        If we act before the ‘event’ then we know we’ll be shot by the cops, or arrested. We’d be a 30 second blip on the news, then forgotten. And nothing would change.
        So, we do… nothing. We wait. We prep. And pray. And wait some more. And life goes on. Will it happen tomorrow, this event? This ‘thing’ that needs to occur to shake us, and 300 million others, out of our apathy? The ‘thing’ that would be so earth shattering that it would awaken us all? What will it be?
        I’ve thought about this a LOT since discovering shtfplan 2 years ago. And I’ve learned more from Mac, and the hundreds of you who post, than you will ever know. My eyes are open a bit now. And I’m at least partly awake. I don’t have the words to properly express my thanks, so I’ll just say God bless all of you for helping me to wake up.
        The consensus seems to be that, whatever the big event is, it’s coming soon. Some say a few years at most. Possibly just a few months. Who really knows the future? Only God and Madame Darva the psychic, and she won’t tell unless we pay her.
        One thing we know is that we’ll recognize it when it happens. And when it finally does, will we have the courage to embrace the responsibilities that come with emancipation? To truly be FREE? God help us all to be men and women of integrity, of virtue…and courage.

        • I genuinely love this country. And the little bit of Mexico and the parts of Canada that I’ve seen are incredible. And I love (most) people. I want us all to be free. Now you see why I mostly stick to writing the silly stuff. Otherwise I get all emotional (sniff, sniff). Daisy, please pass the kleenex box again, I’m having a moment. (dabs eyes with shirt sleeve)
          And,(sniff, sniff) put another 1000 rounds of 30-06 on my Christmas list.

          • *hugs*

            Here ya go, Okie. I got you Puffs with Lotion.

            I’m right there with you. While I COULD acquire things like guns outside the law, I prefer not to risk the fight. Are we wrong to go with the flow? Is that what got us in this situation in the first place? Some excellent points that I had not even considered.

            • God save the Queen!

        • Smokin’, the “event everyone seems to be waiting for” is on the way. Google “A.C. Valdez” and read the vision God gave him back in 1929; it’s about to be fulfilled, most likely shortly before the election. This will give the Marxist the excuse he needs to postpone or suspend the election. He has a plan in place; why do you suppose he seems unfazed by the scandals, the polls, and the abhorrence of true Americans? He’s not from Chicago because he likes the weather! Chicago knows how to steal elections (1960), so he’s not worried. But God is going to bring HIS plan to pass.

          Americans need to know that God’s judgment is upon this nation, and civil war is inevitable. Americans need to be prepared for the worst, because that’s what is coming — SOON! When God sends His massive stroke on Sodom and Gomorrah, it will usher in the end of America. We have had our LAST “free” election, and there are no “right candidates” to turn this nation around. God is taking things out of man’s hands and keeping them in His Own. It is time for all men everywhere to REPENT and call upon the Name of the Lord. There will be no peace, no safety, apart from Him. Amen.

        • Indeed, Okie! All the Constitution does is ACKNOWLEDGE rights that are God-given and thus always present. Modify the Constitution, burn the damned thing, the rights are still there.

      20. Smokin Okie,
        You are right on the money with the God given rights.

        And I agree with all you said. I hope and pray we all have the strength and courage in the days that will come. I am sure we will, The good Lord has never failed us before. Remember the passage about how he takes care of his own? The little bird has what it needs and how more important are we in his eyes?

        We will be given the strength, the courage, the ability to embrace those responsibilities.

        Just like God has given us the foresight to see what is coming and to prepare, he will give us the ablity at the proper times.

        Why do you think those that in power are so adament in attempting gun control, social engineering, trying to gain more and more control over us peeps. I believe they know what’s coming also and are scared shitless. They are trying to avert what is going to happen to them. The good Lorg will see to it that his will be done. Like a guilty child awaiting punishment these corrupt Bastards and Harpys are nervously fidgeting with eyes cast down and flittering about.

        Don’t worry my man (I’m guilty of worry as well), Things are as they should be and will be as they ought. I will be happy when freedom truly comes even if it harder and more difficult than we know.

        Rock on, I’m welding copper as much as I can, I’m working on 4 of the fuel grade ethanol producing fractionating reflux columns for personal emergemcy use.

        I have plenty of firearms, lost count when I ran out of fingers and toes…lol…

        And if you want to check me outlook at:

        contact me through that cell number or through site email, even if you just want to chat,

        Terry W. Reed

      21. Since they already ignore th 4th amendment with the so-called Patriot Act, what is to stop them from ignoring the 2nd amendment, using their various lists (think fusion centers) and going house-to-house? Would they call on the sheriff to do it? Our local sheriff is a former student of mine, so next week I’ll just go and ask him. I tend to think that people tend to be submissive, and they will just fold without real support. We built a weekend retreat last year: 50 acres next to a national forest, 3br/2ba. This week we decided to expand it another 900 sq. feet. My daughter will sell her house and my wife and I will sell ours and move here full time. Checked out Del Rio school for the grandchildren yesterday. Our thought:get out of Dodge now. Getting the mountain garden plowed next week. Have enough guns for an army, but needto get the family to use them. I trust no one else. Look what happened to those three old guys in Georgia(I’m 65 so should not call others old).

      22. Dennis Henigan, acting president of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, said he was “skeptical” of the Black Friday gun surge.

        “I think there may be no real signifcance at all,”

        Nah. No real significance at all.

      23. Dear Santa,
        I want a savage 308 tactical with the leupold MK 4 tactical scope and 1000 rnds of hornady 168 gr hpbt, 5 year supply of mountain house in cans, a winning lottery ticket and whirreled peas (I don’t know why anyone would like blended peas but all the sheep want it so I thought I’d ask).

        • Do you read or even better, subscribe, ?

      24. Mr Henigan of the Brady center should learn that there’s no such thing as “gun violence”.
        When OJ Simpson killed two people with a knife, was that from “knife violence”?

      25. For those looking into a home defense weapon, remember that many home invading thugs are wearing body armor…
        30.06 armor piercing is very effective.

        • That’s why your home defense gun is a 12ga. At the very least 00 buck will put them on their ass in a world of hurt if it doesn’t penetrate. They you have the advantage of taking your pick of extremities while they’re down. For that matter body armor is not the end all. If you get shot it still hurts like hell, will knock you down, and can easily break ribs.

          • Can’t imagine that a load of birdshot at household ranges wouldn’t knock you off your feet and probably spook your friends at the same time. Even if you have body armor, it would dampen your “shock and awe”.

        • @ Smokin Okie : “Book of Armaments Chapter 5, just past the Holy Hand Gernade”……LOL I love your posts !

          @Dave Yes 30.06 armor piercing is effective ……but I have found that 2 to the head from just about anything
          ….from Ms Daisy’s spear gun…..on up is pretty effective & efficient. After all….while the semi’s & rock & roll stuff can be big fun…..I have found that one shot, one kill , or in this case maybe two shots…is much more economical….and conserves valuable resources ( Ammo ) …..???????? Wait a minute,
          am I going GREEN ????? That is a scary thought.
          I have always been a “make mine a Big Block Mopar or Ford kinda guy….. There is no substitute for Cubic IncheMontgomeryomnery County Texas

        • ~Dave~

          If one has access to a lathe & simple, single stage reloading equipment, they can produce their own fairly safe ‘in-home vest penetrating pistol ammo’. See details below…

          —-The test mule was a USA mfgd .357mag w/ 4″ barrel—-

          1.) Acquire via industrial supply houses, a section of hard delron-nylon rod. Usually comes in 6-12ft lengths. Purchase rod w/ closest oversize to the bore ID. I used .375″ OD rod. Available colors are white, black & charcoal grey.

          2.) Cut rod into 12in lengths. Chuck section in lathe & turn down to recommended diameter.

          3.) Reposition rod in chuck & bevel end to as near sharp point as possible. I’ve used 30′ & 45′(degrees bevel) either angle will work.

          4.) Cut beveled end off rod = same length as max weight JHP projectile used in your weapon (i.e. I measured the length of a Hornady 158gr. JHP w/ a dial caliper & cut the beveled end off to that dimension.)

          5.) Repeat steps 2 thru 5 until you’ve produced the desired # of projectiles.

          6.) Loading data…use the fastest burning pistol powder you can find. I used 14.6 grains of “Bullseye” & CCI small pistol primers. Gas checks can be used.

          7.) Seat projectile to max OAL(overall length) specified for your weapon.

          8.) Use a medium to heavy roll-crimp.

          —Penetration test criteria involved a (dry)class 3 vest draped & taped over a 5gal plastic bucket filled w/ thick clay mud w/ a 3/8 plywood backstop behind it—

          A.) Distance to target = 20ft

          B.) Front panel of vest completely penetrated. Ditto w/ bucket & a huge geyser of mud thrown sideways / skyward.

          C.) Rear panel of vest = minimal damage / deformation.

          ———-Safety test results———–

          1.) Projectile will NOT travel 100yds. Velocity loss vs. distance is extreme.

          2.) Test #2 involved shooting at a simulated indoor wall
          (wall = 2pieces of 1/2 thick drywall & 2×4 air gap spacing) & a 3rd piece of drywall 15ft behind target.

          3.) Results = target penetrated/ blasted & backstop drywall lightly peppered w/ debris.

          —CONCLUSION: this load expends ~100% of its kinetic energy upon impact & will easily penetrate the most widely vest on the market.

          P.S.) Have not tested w/ a semi-auto yet, there are substantially different ‘physics / dynamics’ in play w/ a semi. Will keep interested parties informed when I complete testing.

          • One thing I’d worry about… over time, those things may well eat your rifling alive. For instance, I’ve seen machinery (mostly food-grade poultry processing machinery) where teflon ‘bearings’ and blocks would easily erode stainless steel over time.

            Have you ever tried building a semi-sabot projectile? That is, a lead bullet with a hard central core running down the center?

            • ~ Old Questioner~

              Primary aim of experiment was two-fold:

              1.) Easy to home produce, class III vest-shredding / penetrating ammo.

              2.) Near ‘ZERO’ forensics.

              …never intended for high volume plinking!
              Final analysis = objective achieved, since the projectile penetrates a short distance & disintegrates…almost explosively! It really is quite visually impressive!

              Btw, thanks for the idea of a semi-sabot design…interesting concept & I actually have a bunch of too small to weld with, used (TIG) tungsten in the shop!

          • Gunsmith,

            Are you really a gunsmith? If so do you do any laser cutting for muzzle breaks? My old gunsmith pass away sure do miss him. Gunsmihing is dieing art, but is something I will learn.


            • ~DPS~

              Am not a registered professional. Have +29 years machinist experience & repairing industrial CNC equipment, including 6-axis robots, 3-axis plasma burn tables, multi-axis machining centers etc…etc. & all aspect welding. I am able to make a decent living too! Gunsmithing is both a personal hobby & therapy for me.

              I don’t laser cut muzzle brakes or flash suppressors, I use a lathe & a vertical mill. Its not that difficult, either!

          • That projectile weighed about 20 grains. I would imagine the velocity to be every bit of 2000 fps.

            I think your on to something here. Lead is used in bullets as a matter of history but less weight and higher velocity has been the progression over time being energy is a function of velocity squared.

            You might have a patient idea.

            • If my math is correct I’m getting close to 2100fps. That’s 30-30 territory. Didn’t chronograph test for velocity as the projectile is non-metallic. Will do so w/ some gas checked rounds to see if I can get a reliable reading.

              Another future project involves using the same projectile profile, but utilizing either a ‘(*)moly or graphite’ impregnated hard nylon or maybe teflon, if I can find / order teflon rods @ Grainger.

              (*)—Molybdenum Di-sulfide & Graphite should actually increase penetration (theoretically)…due to their extreme pressure lubrication properties. Just a theory of mine! Thanks for reading…..

        • They aren’t wearing anything more than Class III vests, which stop handgun rounds up to .44 Magnum only. These are not stopping any .30 caliber rifle rounds. Also remember to suggest people to wear some good hearing protection when they shoot the intruder with your 30-06 as they are really loud bangs.

      26. Yeah right… no significance to breaking the all-time record for background checks in a day.

      27. Mac

        Just what is your ‘primary” weapon of choice for home defense?

        Question..when one buys a it automatically registered with DHS..or is the background check strictly that?

        Here in Mass.every purchase,excepting ammunition and assorted accessories. is run on a computer and a phone call as well.

        How then is the gun registered?

        Thank you.

        • Honestly I am not sure of the inner workings of the registration systems… All I know is, if you buy from a dealer ‘they’ know what ya got.

          In terms of home defense, I went with 9mm for popularity of ammo and low recoil. I am particular to the beretta 92fs…just a sweet gun in my opionion. Also, the saiga 12 semi auto, Russian made 12 gauge.

          Battle rifles include the norinco SKS…in my opinion a great shtf weapon.

          Long range, 308 semi auto FN AR…. Sometimes I hug it before I go to bed.

          That’s just me though…. Lots of great guns out there…

          • Mac,
            ‘Norinco sks…in my opinion a great shtf weapon.’ I concur 100%! Great minds work alike!Picked mine up brand new in the box never fired for $80.00 @ a gun show back in 92. Best $80.00 bucks I ever spent. Of course it is now fully modified w/ scope, bipods, thermal resin t-4 adjustable stock, & 20round magazines, muzzle surpresor, the whole 9 yards all for under $400.00 bucks including the initial purchase price of $80.00 bucks! Square tube scope mount allows for the use of existing iron sights, and will never fail, jam, or let you down in time of need!
            @ Iowa down bellow, there are 2 major differences between a Kalishnakov(AK) & a Simonov(SKS) and they are the AK fires from an open bolt position where the SKS fires from a closed bolt position. The result is that firing a weapon from the closed bolt position will allow the shooter more accuracy!
            The 2nd difference is that the AK is stamped in the manufacturing proccess where as the SKS is milled. Once again due to the procision used in the manufacturing proccess of the SKS, it offers the shooter a much more accurate weapon.
            Effective range of the AK with open sights = 150 yards. Maximum effective range an SKS w/ open sights = 250 yards! Hope this helps w/ your decision making Iowa.

            • Awesome info Chopolin!

              I would love to buy an SKS for $80! Hard to find new ones these days for a decent price.

            • Heck my scopes start at 2k,, the rifle work went to 5k not to mention personally loaded special rounds 7.62.51, aka M118 LR. well over 60k invested in various close to long range weapons and ammo.

            • The Norinco SKS is certainly at the top of my list of favorites as well, superseded perhaps only by the awesome Russian laminated SKS’s that came in for a spell during the ’90’s. The mostly unknown pedigree of the Norinco (and Polytech [the commercial outlet of Norinco]) SKS’s and AK/AKMs is interesting. After the “liberation” of the China mainland by the Chicoms, they became bosom buddies with the Russians, driven mainly by the enemy of my enemy is my friend mentality. This didn’t last long, declining by the late ’50’s and pretty much gone during the 60’s (yes, not all Commies follow the same Commie-ism!). The result of this early Comraderie resulted in the Russians sending oodles of SKS’s and AKs to China. China, for all practical purposes, had no manufacturing capability after the Revolution. So the Russians sent them SKS and AK components China could not make…in the raw so to say, mostly w/no markings…primarily receivers/barrels/bolt carrier assemblies and such. Those nice early SKS’s with milled trigger groups and screw-in barrels…fundamentally Russian. Polytech/Norinco milled AK’s…Lengends, Nat’l Matches, etc…Russian. China would fit their own wood furniture and other small components…parts they could make. Some early weapons were often 100% Russian…yes, great copiers that the Chinese are, they still need the originals to copy from! Chinese SKS’s w/stamped trigger groups/housings, they are Chinese…with maybe some re-arsenaled Russian receivers/barrels. Later stamped AKMs, all/mostly Chinese components. Watch the Norinco SKS’s with pressed barrels; not as accurate.
              History, is, well…cool.

      28. I need advice on purchasing my next firearm.

        I have a .40 sigma s&w. My next 3 purchases will be a pump 12 guage shotgun (for home defense & hunting, a .22 rifle, and a battle rifle (AK47 maybe).

        I’m only able make a purchase like this once a year. I have bout $500 to spend on the gun. If I had to get just one before the economy colapses, what should I get?

        • With a handgun you can protect yourself, your family and your land. With a rifle you can impose your will. (I think thats how the quote goes…from rawles’ Survivors)….

          That being said, I would personally look at a rifle – that’s the order I took… The ak is a solid choice cost-wise…. You can also probably score an SKS for around $350…. 7.62×39…. I am particular to the Norinco Chinese made models… Maybe the only quality item made in China. The Sks will eat just about any 7.62×39 ammo you put in it, so you can go with the lower cost Russian made ammo in bulk and still have reliability at a decent price. And you can bling it out with whatever monEy you have left over.

          • Mac


            “The mission of the defensive pistol is to provide immediate protection against unexpected, life-threatening criminal violence. Unexpected is the point. Forewarned, one would go out of his way to avoid the situation, while calling in the gendarmes; or if that were impossible, he would fetch a rifle or shotgun, which are decidedly more effective tools for repelling boarders than any pistol…” Finn Aagaard, Concealed Carry, Finn Aagaard Selected Works 2007

            A handgun is for fighting your way to your rifle which you shouldn’t have put down in the first place” Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch Training Academy


            • Great stuff DPS!

            • Mac
              Thank you sir.


        • Iwoa,

          How you fixed your trigger yey on your 40 sigma? And Mac has a great point on the 92fs, I keep 1 on the head board. But I still use my 9 s&w for everyday carry. If you only have $500 to spend pick you up a ruger 10/22 & a Remington 870, you can both for around $500 bucks. Plus ammo is really cheap. I know everybody thinks a 22 lr is not a good defense gun, but I like it I can take out your knees at 150 yds with mine and then its just a matter of where I wanna put the rest of the magazine.
          The shot gun well look at what a 12 gauge slug does to a telephone pole (Cool) I could only imagine what it would do to a person.


          PS if your budget ever allows it the colt ar is a lot of fun… Damn I may have to go to gun rehab soon.

          • Bout fixing my trigger on my sigma .40…I’m not a gunsmith yet. Can you recommend a good youtube video? Kind of worried about breaking something or getting injured from faulty trigger fixing. The trigger pull is heavy though.

            • @ Iowa & DPS :
              What’s the problem Y’all arereferringg to on the Sigma .40 ? That is my primary carry piece, with a Sigma 9mm as my backup. I have not had any trigger issues with either……so far. If there is something that I need to be aware of please advise. So far after 15 years….the only issue I have had with my sigmas…is that the 9mm does not like cheap ammo. She has expensive taste….like me I guess !
              Montgomery County Texas

            • Random,
              The only issue I had with my 9mm sigma was the grit feel to the trigger, what can I say i like a smooth trigger, The utube video shows how to lighten the trigger and with a little polishing I got my 9mm smooth as glass.
              Its my everyday carry. But I really do love my 92fs but I don’t carry it every day its a little heavy. Both are great guns, but the 9mm sigma is like yours she has expensive taste when it comes to ammo.


          • How many gangstas would say “Let’s get him! He’s only shooting a .22!”

        • Iowa – everyone needs a .22 rifle. The 10/22 is popular but it’s too tempting to put a bunch of aftermarket stuff on it. I like the Marlin bolt-action, mine has seen a ton of action around here just putting down trapped pests.

          • I was kind of thinking that a .22 rifle right now would be the best way to go since a rifle is no good without ammo. Thanks.

            • definitely a way to go…. 22 ammo is so cheap these days… but i am not sure how effective it would be against armed looters coming at you with higher powered weaponry. Nonetheless, for $500 you could score a 10/22 rifle, put a scope on it, and stock several thousand rounds of ammo…

              Still, the SKS is a solid solution with respect to cost, ammo, and defense capabilities, IMHO.

            • I am no gun expert by any means. But if you think about it, a semi auto 22cal rifle, with a high capacity magazine isn’t a bad way to go. I like the ability to “spray”, large ammounts of lead in a general direction, very quickly. Plus, extra mags for these 22’s are much cheaper that other higher calibers. Something to think about if on a budget, and you can only buy one weapon. Otherwise, go with a shotgun–hard to beat.

            • ~Iowa~

              Take your weapon to someone who knows what they’re doing (a gunsmith) & tell them you want the ‘feed-ramp polished’.
              Avoid gun-show bulk-pak reloads & stick w/ factory loaded ammo or load your own (mid-range to hot)…*Unique & Blue Dot powders would be a good starting point!

              Many home reloading businesses load the case to the absolute minimum powder charge, relative to any given caliber’s specs…the result = follow up round feed / case jamming problems. Hope this helps!

              ——————-Good Luck———————–

        • Your choice will of course depend on the type of defense you have in mind. There’s absolutely nothing, NOTHING that compares to the devastating power of 12 gauge shotgun for short range application. With that in mind, a Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 would be your best bet.
          However, there’s a reason armies have semi-auto rifles and not shotguns. For medium range, get an AK-74 or Saiga in 7.62×39. These are typical assault rifles (not battle rifles). Very reliable and won’t cost arm and a leg. Get a Russian made Saiga and then convert it.
          I would not recommend SKS though due to excessive weight (9+lbs) and its inability to accept hi-cap mags out of the box (you have to gunsmith it).
          A true battle rifle is in 7.62×51 (.308) and a good example of it is M1A Socom. The price tag is very heft though: $2200 and up.
          However, I’d go with a rifle for wider range of options available.

      29. Look after yourself because the government wont.

      30. If you really want to buy a gun off the grid its easy. Just run a ad in your local thrifty nichol classifieds. Simple message ( Private collector seeks guns, top prices paid) Did the a couple of times and man my phone never stopped ringing. As people get desprite for cash the will let those guns go cheap and in TX its still legal to buy from a Individual.


        Quote for the day, “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference – they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good.” – George Washington

        • Or……if you were anywhere near East Texas you could go to the worlds largest trades day (First Monday) Google it. Thousands of vendors. Silver goes super quick though, but we picked up a little gun not too long ago. Super easy……….

          • Happycountrymom,

            Long drive for me I up by amarillo


      31. For those looking for a home defense weapon and 30-06 armor piercing ammo is already bought up, try a shotgun blast between the legs, blowing out the femoral arteries. It is not as instantaneous a death as a sucking chest wound, but dead just the same. Remington 1100. The gift that keeps on giving unwanted gifts. If the home invasion happens during the holidays, but sure to sing a few stanzas of the old Christmas favorite; “Violent Night”. Other than the blasts of your shotgun, let a few chords of music be the last thing a thug hears!

        • And advantage of a shotgun is you can use bird shot, effective close-up but won’t “carry” far and create havoc houses over.

          I don’t believe in gratuitous pain/suffering, frankly I want my enemy to just fall over, clunk. I’ve shot animals and had ’em fall over like they were a stuffed teddy bear, it was amazing. The coveted sniper’s instant-stop shot. Take a CCW class, they teach you to aim for the center of mass to stop the threat. Not to kill the guy, to stop the threat. Of course center-mass is most likely to kill the guy! But, this is an important distinction.

          • Ufortunatley, the teddy bear remark make coffee shoot out my nose.tyvm. I do agree with the bird shot. I have three types shells : bird shot (8pellet) as described, plain old buck shot(9 pellet) and the Winchester PDX1.12 defender shells ( a 1oz.slug and three pellets) for when I’m really in a bad mood. When I took my class, I was told to aim at the middle and shoot ’till they dropped. My husband said to whack ’em on the head as I ran by with the rifle butt to be sure they don’t get up until he got there.

            • typo : made coffee shoot out my nose.

            • It was amazing, and while I didn’t have coffee with me, busting out laughing when you’re hunkered down behind a rifle at the edge of a prairie dog town makes a person look pretty weird too. I didn’t laugh, though, I just kind of stared in wonder.

            • My dear daddy said, “Girl, you just aim at the middle of him and pull the trigger until it clicks. If you aren’t going to do that, don’t even bother loadin’ the gun.”

              He was a very smart man. 😀

          • thats the reason for the doubble tap or even tripple tap
            two in the center mass, and one or even two very good attempts at the head.

            never assume pulling the trigger once , will be enough..always keep firing until the object (target) is down and out.

            remember..body armor is for sale, and if I can get can they.

            you want your recolection of events to be the only one, do not allow the assailant to survive THEIR attack

      32. Dear Brady Gun Grabbers,


        ’cause all you do is Lie !!

        • Just so you know you are welcome over for a BBQ anytime…!!! Hhahahahaaa…

      33. America’s greatest Armed Force, estimated up to 43.7 million hunters. Now that is something to warm the cockles. If you are in doubt of the need to prepare for the enevitable, best wake up and smell the coffee cuz the boogeyman is coming, its just a matter of when, now.

        • This is why we need more FFA, 4-H, Scouts, Explorers, etc., rifle and pistol teams too. In the US if you want to go to the Olympics or want your kid to go, pistol is one of the few sports that are wide open. In rifle, you’re gonna have to work for it but you’ll get the benefit of knowing some of the finest people on the planet.

          So if you’re at loose ends, you can put some time and a little money (doesn’t take much, Red Ryders are $25 each) into one of these programs.

        • I think most of the people looking for an “event” feel exhausted by the relentless grind into the dirt.

      34. We bought our first guns earlier this year. I believe we’re going to see hyperinflation and societal collapse.

      35. I have enough weapons for protection but I’ve had my eye and hands on a Ruger 22/45. I’m thinking it would be nice for practice. Wish it was easier to get the suppressor for the model with the threaded barrel.

      36. Gang,
        I know this is off the subject but could somebody tell me what coins and the date on them for looking at the silver content? I have a large water bottle full and have had for a long time, but before I take it in I would like to get some of the junk silver out of it.


        • You want to look for 1964 and before of dimes, quarters and fifty cent pieces. Probably wont find any nickles and no pennies. There are variables to other years on coins that had silver content.
          I am no expert, but this should help you get started.

          Also, I would use Google or choice to find out the exact info you are looking for.

          Good luck on your hunt.

          • EagleDove,

            Thanks bud, I’m finding a lot of nichels that are 1964 down to 1960 but I guess they are not worth nothing so my search will go on for days.


            PS a 5gal water jug holds a lot dang change.

            • Welcome. 🙂

          • I recently bought a box of nickels from my local credit union, hooping to find war nickles. Those from 1942-46, with the large mint mark over the Jefferson Dome. those are 40% silver. I didn’t find a single one. This method costs you nothing but a little time, and sometime you get lucky. Might be a good way to spend a long cold winter night. Those nickles are very easy to spot. I have been a little lucky finding them in regular pocket change–sweeeeet.

          • EagleDove,

            Out of $175.00 in dimes I found pre 1964 so its not looking to good for the silver thing yet. But I still have the quarters to go and to bad pennies are not worth much. I have around 40 lbs of those. Like I said a 5 gal water bottle holds alot of change.
            Thanks again

            • opps found 4 pre 1964 dimes

        • Goog “coin melt value”they will tell you all you need

      37. Merry Christmas Honey! This year I got you an AK, a shotgun, a Glock and a Rueger with 5000 rounds of ammo.

        You will need this to defend youself against the coming golden hoard, the tyranical government, the uprepared zombies and the opportunists who are using this bad economy as an internal excuse to themselves to rob others.

        Welcome to the New Normal.

      38. Wish I had money to spend on black friday, though it won’t be much longer now til my next work project starts……then I’ll be looking for Netranger to take me shopping and then to the range for instructions

      39. DPS

        Pre 1965 quarters, dimes and halves are .705 Troy ounces of silver per one dollar unit. Silver dollars are .788 Troy ounces per dollar value. The best deal, and one I use is dimes, quarters and halves, not the forty per centers, and silver eagles. But beware of counterfeit eagles, buy from an accredited dealer.

      40. Confusing—for the link/site, just choose Listen for the mp3

      41. Black Friday sucks! Job security though, its taken 9 semi loads to just refill the store I work at. I do love working for Cabelas though. Keep prepping please it keeps me with a job. Merry Christmas and happy new (last civilized?) year!

      42. I bought a Mossberg 500 last month and a 100 round case of #4 buck for it this month. There is nothing like the sound of racking a round into the chamber to let a bad guy know that he is in imminent deep s**t.

        Already had a few handguns but needed something to up the ante in the home defense dept. Looters and zombies WILL be treated in the same extremely prejudiced manner around here! >:-]

        • just to let you know by racking a round while the assailant is in your home just gave away your tactical addvantage, and your possition and your intent..

          stealth is the way..never let them know whats coming
          dont worry about scaring them..just be on point with your game.

          a nice bright light on that shot gun will do more for you than the sound of the rack

      43. Over 50,000,000 homes have weapons. I wonder how many of those are prepared to really defend their home in a tough situation? Next I’m sure the number of people able to step up and join others to defend a neighborhood is dramatically lower yet?

        I enjoy firearms, have plenty, and actually think of some as barter tools to people I know – or to give to others who might be providing me services in return. I just have this sinking feeling there will be a glut in the market after SHTF and the first wave is over.

      44. Why do people bother to buy more guns? Most people will simply turn them in when told to do so. Most “hunters” think as long as they can go kill animals a couple times a year, everything is OK.

        You could have a billion guns, and a trillion rounds of ammo, and it will do you absolutely zero good, if all you will end up doing is waiting for some signal to tell you things are about to get worse.

        Look around you. The war on you began long ago. It only becomes visable when some high profile story cannot be easily hidden.

        I admire the couage of those who can face the truth, and are willing to stand thier ground. But those people are and will be slowly and quietly being mopped up.

        We will likely see a continual slow, incremental errosion of freedom, registration, and finally total confiscation, and most people will comply.

        After all, only terrorists want guns…You’re not a terrorist…are you?

      45. Hey everyone, does anyone have a good recommendation for a gun/ammo safe manufacturer. We have been shopping for weeks. I haven’t been able to find a real solid and fire safe cabinet yet. They are either really flimsy or not fire proof. I am not crazy about the Sentry products. I would prefer one that has digital/dial combo lock on it and can hold up to 8 guns plus other valuable items. Figured I would ask the experts on this sight. Thanks!

        • oops, *site

        • Try: and search for ‘gun safe.’ No promises. There was a post recently (?) with a reference link to a gun-safe maker with video. Sounded good.

      46. Just to clarify about New Mexico. The previous info is correct about the guns but we lived there for 11 months. The people are not friendly (unless you speak Spanish), the crime rate is high (lived in Chicago so i know high) and the medical service suck. The exception is the VA hospital services which are excellent! Nice place to visit for the balloon fest but that is it!

      47. The site wouldn’t allow me to reply, so I reposted. This it truth and should be posted all over the Internet before it’s too late!!!

        Hammerun says:
        December 4, 2011 at 11:12 pm
        If you can believe there is anything to the power of collective thought, gun sales ought to lead one to believe there is something in the wind. I know of two situations today where rifles are going to be given as Christmas gifts. I have an Electrician coming on Monday, he doesn’t want money, he wants one of my tactical rifles. 2009, 12 million guns and 14billion rounds (nonmilitary) were sold. 2010 14 million more guns were sold. I know people that are buying ammunition by the case and not firing any of it. I have bought ammunition for weapons I don’t even own. For barter value, plus it was cheap and I will probably be able to fine AK47s fairly available after all of the ammo is shot out. (A friend of mine got back from the sandbox and stated that an AK could be had for $20 in Bagdad it was the ammo that was hard and expensive to find.)
        Collectively; we, all of us that has any brain function left, smell it like a rotting corpse, it’s everywhere, thick, almost can taste it. And some of us are doing something about it, protecting ourselves.
        But; being the fatalist I believe I’m turning into believes there is something far sinister in play here. Gun sales and the like I am sure has been taken into account and does not play into the final equation. There is I believe a final solution and all of the guns, food storage, precious metal, prepping getting out of debt, none of it will not be at play. I, like you and the others have no idea who is steering this thing. We know who the big players are in the news every night. It is my personal belief that there is going to be every intention to kill a pile of us in the end and not so much a fire a shot. Unfortunately science today has given us this capability.

        • Chemtrails?

        • Oh man, wished I would have seen this a few weeks ago. I just bought a pk22. Looks very similar in style. Nice grip, fits the small hand very well. Very easy and comfortable to conceal on the body. I would have preferred a 9mm over the 22 but couldn’t find one that “fit” as well as the pk22. I love shooting it! Maybe I will use it for target practice and look at this 9mm for the future. Thanks for posting it.

        • BJ,
          Hard to go wrong with the taurus add a couple extra mags to go with it and you have a good gun for a every day carry, I’m not sure how the fire pin reset would work but it seems to be a sweet little gun. Might check to out for my GF, but then again buying your GF a gun may not be a good idea.


          • What do you mean by “fire pin reset”??

            Sorry for what probably seems like such elementary questions for most of you, but I don’t know much here at all

            • BJ,
              It means for each time you pull the trigger you get the firing pin to strike the shell, sometimes with cheaper ammo you will get a misfire. With a semiauto gun that is a true double action you will get a hit on the shell everytime you pull the trigger,most semi autos have to be racked before geting another hit with the firing pin racking means to pull the slide back which in turn kicks the shell out and puts a new shell in..


      48. … and not a blinkin’ on of the purchasers will be a a Bumbling Barack supporter either, I’ll warrant.

        Also, good news: I am a dual US/Canadian citizen, and the Long Gun Registry in Canada is going away, too.

        Hooray for freedom. Down with oppressors (i.e., the czars, cronies, crooks and corruptocrats of this present administration)

      49. Wonder if Eric Holder sold any of ’em?

      50. Rule of thumb: Make sure your rifle, handgun, fires NATO rounds why? The rounds you’ll gather will be the common NATO rounds untied nations forces will be carrying, just sayin!

      51. Oops: United nations

      52. Clear

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