Desensitizing Our Children to Tyranny

by | Apr 11, 2011 | Headline News | 61 comments

Do you LOVE America?


    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.

    -Ronald Reagan

    In conversations with a member of Generation X, a Baby Boomer or even a Greatest Gernationer, we often find ourselves recollecting what things were like when we were kids, and how they were different from today. Discussing current events and everyday happenings with our own kids, Generation Z’ers, we can’t help but notice that we often compare today’s circumstances to how things were, or would have been, twenty-five years ago when we were children.

    Recently, on our morning drive to school, our kindergartner pointed out to her younger sister that there are cameras on the traffic lights. Being the inquisitive type, the younger sibling responded with her usual, “whyyyyyy?”

    “To make sure you’re not doing anything wrong,” quickly replied her older sister. “Right daddy?” she asked.

    After biting down on tongue for a period of time, daddy had a difficult time holding in the many streams of consciousness fighting to let loose.

    “Yes, they want to make sure you follow all of the rules of our society,” responded daddy. The overwhelming desire to protest such a travesty, however, could not be contained, “But more importantly, they want you to know that the cameras are there, and always watching you, so you don’t ever think of stepping out of line and that you never question those rules. When you’re scared of getting into trouble because someone is watching, your fear will keep you from doing anything that the person watching you may think is wrong.”

    Blank stares were evident as daddy peered into the rear-view. Kids return to My Little Pony discussion.

    For Generation Z, cameras on every intersection are commonplace. It’s completely normal to have them on our laptops and home computers. Cell phones have made it possible to take video communication (and surveillance) mobile. While they may not exactly understand their purpose, kids are very much aware of and completely desensitized to the surveillance society that we (not just our governments) have created.

    Twenty-five years ago, had you suggested such a future, most would have dismissed it as science fiction on the order of Orwell’s 1984.

    And while the video and audio on our traffic lights, laptops, iPads and cell phones aren’t necessarily being recorded, processed, analyzed and acted on by enforcement agencies as of yet, it’s not too far of a stretch of the imagination to understand where such technologies will go once the entire infrastructure is built out and computer processing power is fast enough to handle all of the information.

    One generation at a time, we are being desensitized to tyranny. In fact, we ourselves not only allow it to happen, but are very much engaged in its promotion and acceptance – whether we like it or not.

    The latest example comes to us from one of our nation’s airports and involves a TSA agent and a six year old girl:

    The TSA agent acted respectfully, if that’s possible, with regard to the pat-down, and for all intents and purposes, performed her duties according to her job description.

    The obvious problem, of course, is that as this six year old navigates through society, she will be exposed to thousands of such experiences, with each one creating a perception of what normal is – or isn’t.

    For those of us who were used to standard metal detectors at airport security gates, or even the generation before us who didn’t have metal detectors at all, such actions by government officials are arguably a violation of our individual rights and, especially, the 4th amendment of the Constitution which protects us from unreasonable search and seizure.

    By the time this six year old reaches adulthood, however, it’s highly likely that she (and we’re speaking in general terms and not specifically directing this at one particular child) will be completely numb to “official” pat-downs and personal touching, and have no Constitutional qualms about such invasive behavior from government sponsored entities.

    A violation of our rights today, becomes everyday behavior a generation from now, until eventually, the America of when we were kids is totally gone, replaced by a new, unrecognizable government, culture and society.

    It’s happening right before our eyes – in slow motion.


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      1. It has already happened.  The choice is whether you will continue to support the corporation that is doing it.
        I choose to be my own protector and keep everything that is mine.  I refuse to live as a slave, or pay for it.

      2. We discuss politics, freedom and our views of what is wrong in America with our teenaged children.  Our older teen is not as receptive – says she doesn’t want to be stressed out..but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t understand.  Our younger one eats it up.  His school forces him to watch CNN news everyday and he comes how with spot on comments about the slant they give the news and what is happening in the world.

        It is hard.  I understand my daughter’s sentiment of not wanting to be stressed.  She is leaving to go away to college in the Fall.  I’m sure she is worried about her future.  This is supposed to be one of the best times in her entire life and its all crumbling before her eyes.  Will there even be a job for her in 4 years when she graduates?  I hope so.  We have steered her to professions that we believe will be the most employable and luckily for her she’s smart enough to get in any of the programs/courses of study.

        Fortunately her teacher recently assigned the novel 1984.  She read the book and I believe it was an eye opener.  She’s working on her paper now and so far it’s very insightful.

        As a parent its hard to know where to draw the line.  We must provide an education, an understanding of politics & freedom. But we also must balance childhood, youth, optimism & happiness.  We struggle with it all the time.  I’m sure I’m not alone.

      3. Is it bad that I pray for the brak down of this “so called society” ?

      4. Everything is about keeping the game going – not about making society better!

        not only control your moves by watching, they control your attitude with drugs. When we grew up none of my friends were on the drugs these kids are on today.

        This article rings true with the respect that each generation will grow up with more government control. Each generation will be conditioned to act, feel and give up freedom until it’s totally gone without anyone noticing. You have to admit it… it’s clever!

        America is actually among the least free countries on earth. Your piss is tested, your emails and phone calls are monitored, your medical records are gathered, and you are never more than one stray comment away from writhing on the ground with two taser prongs in your ass. I feel I’m close to that!
        But it goes much deeper than mere surveillance and anxiety.

        I see three choices… 1. take back our country and let the government only do what it was set up to do “enforce the constitution”, 2. Leave the country all together, or 3. Die.

        Life is just not worth living if we have to live like slaves. “Give me Liberty or give me Death!”

      5. Comments…..GAmom, I can understand your concern. My daughter is now out of college and is in her third year of teaching. When she was hired, there were over 200 positions open in her county. The second year, there was only 40 and at the start of this year the county laid some off. I’ve been explaining to both of my kids(my son is now in his final year of a two year engineering course at a community college and he realizes that there will most likely not be any openings in this field when he completes his studies.) what kind of shape this country is in. Fortunately both of my kids understand. I have also been working with my daughter to bug out of the city she’s in or at least be prepared to move quickly if I have to come get her. All this is very hard on those who have a lot of years to look forward to. I wish you well.

      6. PO’dpatriot – After all do you think our kids going to college might be a waste of time? I have three young kids and we have encouraged our kids to have their grades in the As and Bs and going to college. After learning so much stuff about our society that have changed, govt debts, dollar about to crash, etc. What should we teach kids? Fight against gov’t for freedom or encourage them to move out of the country? Just wanted the best for our kids.

      7. Unless they are going to college to become a medical professional or engineer, then discourage them from going, and have them go learn a hands on trade instead.  The future looks better for people that can actually DO things versus people who can shuffle paper.  Govt related jobs will take an especially hard hit when the country finally has to stop living on borrowed/printed money, and many of those useless positions are ended.

      8. Magnix,
        Don’t teach your children to fight against government for their own freedom.  The government has none to give.  The only thing it can do with freedom is take it away.
        Teach them that they do not need the governments permission to be free.  All parents are left to teach their children what it means to be free, and seeking corporate approval is NOT it.
        Encourage them to learn and understand the law, especially when it comes to the standard fraud of the US government.  That being giving it a large percentage of what they earn over their lives when there is no such law that requires it for the vast majority of the people.
        Freedom has to be taken, not asked for.  Only a life long slave would ever feel the need to ask for what God has already given.

      9. We give silver coins to our grandkids.  Any small amounts of dollars that they get they have to save half until they have enough to buy one silver coin from me.  They have it figured out already.  Good grades I pay them, bad grades they pay me.  I haven’t had to be paid yet.  If they want to take their silver home, the deal is done.  They have silver certificate $1 bills also for understanding.

      10. This is slave training, this country has no future, it is already over, in case you missed it, our rights ended the day the govt did 911, that was the end, most sheep have not noticed it yet, but they soon will, when it is too late.

      11. Teach your kids the US Constitution and Bill of Rights at home. Make sure they understand that their rights are inherent and derived from Nature’s God, Creator of everything visible and invisible; and not from any government, organized jurisdiction, or crown. This is the basis for self determination.
        Teach them to garden, farm, fish, hunt, gather, and prospect. Teach them to prep and pray. Enhance their camping and outdoor skills. Engage them in sport it will give them good health.
        Teach them to sing, to dance, and to make music to bring joy to their souls, and others, when joy is at a premium. Encourage them to develop virtues by expressing what is inside, outside.
        Give them more than a basic education in reading, writing, history, literature, science, and math. Encourage all of their natural proclivities and innate curiosity about the world they live in.
        As they get older encourage their participation in business, law, and government. Teach them to engage their government or be enslaved by it. Self determination belongs to those who claim it, demand it, and take ownership of their government.
        Encourage their personal initiative and to accept the hard challenges that are presented to them. Teach them to persevere in the face of adversity and to respect the individuality of others.
        Practice what you preach. Nothing is better than a living example.

      12. Remember: the corporations that own your gubmint can live forever.  Eventually, unless physically restrained, they’ll get everything they want.  And they want it all.

      13. I relish what you preach DK.  Good on you.

      14. type in illuminati backwards and add .com and see where you are redirected.  Very interesting…..

      15. Comments…..durango kidd has it right. don’t depend on anyone other than yourself to teach your child the important stuff…otherwise you may end up with one of those zombies that public educators are producing with their zero tolerance and indoctrinations…

      16. My how times have changed…

        Let’s look at one generation at a time, say a 20 to 25 yr span. And let’s see what is tolerated by each generation that wasn’t there in the previous one.

        Today–TSA groping, cameras multiplying everywhere, fingerprint scans on drivers licenses, retina scanning, facial recognition technology, babies given soc. sec. numbers at birth, urine tests(and hair follicle) required for almost any job, many cars now have computer chips that store tons of info about the cars function and retain the info forever(like how many times you brake hard or over rev the engine), seat belt laws in almost all states 

        About 1985–Urine tests to get some jobs, bar codes now on all consumer products and being used on a few things like drivers licenses and company ID badges, corporations and gov agencies using computers for all info management, most businesses now using video camers for security, most automobiles now had electronic sensors to monitor some engine functions,
        seat belt laws in some states,

        About 1960–Early stages of using computers (many still used punch cards)to file and retrieve large amounts of info, video cameras in very few banks or other businesses, two-way video existed but was not yet in wide use, introduction of some early metal detectors for security(just a few places like maybe the pentagon, not in airports yet), most cars still didn’t have seat belts,

        About 1935–soc sec system introduced, most small town banks manage your account by your name not a number, the only people ever searched by a gov official were the ones already under arrest, currency is now federal reserve notes,

        About 1910–All money is gold or silver or paper backed by it, not everybody has a car yet but the ones that do wouldn’t dream of getting a “license” to operate it, security in banks or any business is a man with a uniform and gun (called a guard) and he’s usually just a pleasant as the other employees of the bank 

        dates and such are just generalities but you get the picture. In 100 years, what have we done to ourselves!?

      17. NWO U.N. blue NAFTA DHS TSA – COP KILLER
        Bye Bye American Pie…
        I shot and killed a NWO U.N. blue NAFTA DHS TSA Cop with my .45 semi-auto black Glock today… a Disabled, Homeless, Cold and Hungry Veteran… I live by the river beneath a bridge… I deserve better than this… tsk, tsk, tsk…
        I had done my time… stood my watch upon the wall; a Guardian of Liberty… and after a fall… now a Stone Cold Cop Killer?  Running from the Amerikan Fascist Traitorous Law… why? why? why?
        The false NWO IMF homo druggy prostitute barry soetoro- a.k.a illegal president barack obama and AIPAC Israeli jew controlled U.S. congress… stopped “Canceled ALL” social security checks the other day… on APRIL 8th, 2011… they Stole all the Social Security Funds, Food Stamps and Medicare too… intentionally Broke america’s piggy bank… gave away the pennies to the Banks and told me “Sorry” none for You! You are Many! We are Few… MORE FOR US! None for You!
        I am a Disabled Veteran… I once Served My Country with Honor and Pride.
        I Murdered Killed a NWO U.N. blue NAFTA DHS TSA Cop Today… why? why? why?
         I had robbed the local Korean corner store… while the radio on the shelf played “Bye Bye American Pie”…  I’d only pocketed a milk, hot pocket and a pie… ran by the Screaming Korean Clerk for the open sky… hopped on my ex Asshole Psycho Neighbors kid pink huffy bike… peddling in a crazed manic flight… hauling fast down the lane… making my one handed get away… thinking “bye bye american pie”… smiling in mirth… while with my other hand grabbing from my shirt, a half frozen Hot Pocket… then a crushed Moon Pie… shovin’ an munchin both in a hunger frenzy… my adrenaline and sugar high now kicking me into Over-Drive… I had gotten away … then I swore… “SHIT!”… crumbs dribbling down my beard… I thought to myself; I shoulda done like Ben Bernanke… acted like a greedy shifty Banker whore and taken more, more, more… for you see – IT’s ALL ABOUT ME! When I’m HUNGRY!
        Then down the way… my calves screaming in pain… I slowed down… a mistake… an A.P.B. an All Points Bulletin – had gone out – “All Patrols Be On The Look Out for a Crazed Long Haired Bearded Hippy Hobo Bum, Riding a Stolen Hot Pink Huffy Bike Down Main Street!”; I’m screwed now… a NWO U.N. Blue NAFTA DHS Cop car pulled up behind, tires screeching… siren blaring , lights a twirling, screaming over the horn “PULL THE FUCK OVER!”
        At that time… I “Snapped” grinned an said to myself “Screw It!” an thought “I’m homeless cold and hungry”… “This Asshole Cop isn’t gonna do me like “Rodney King”!”… “The NWO U.N. IMF Greedy Banker Fuckers did this to me!”… “It is either Him or Me!” I skidded to a stop “swiiishhhh!”… planted my worn out combat boots upon the cool concrete of the street… reached into my sweat soiled pants waist… an pulled my cold heavy .45 Glock like slow dead weight… fingers numb… pointed and leveled it at the windshield of the NWO U.N. NAFTA blue Patrol Car… looking the Cop dead in the eye… I recognized him, he use to be nice to me, always smiling when we met on the street… Officer Friendly, now wearing NWO camo green Combat Gear, with U.N. sky blue Patches… once our neighborhood hero… here to “Protect and Serve”… now no more… now he is a DHS TSA Federalized Thug… a NWO U.N. NAFTA blue Storm Trooper Whore… ordered by our illegal alien false president obama to “Punish and Enslave!”
        And while the innocent curious child side of me… kept asking… “why, why, why ?”… the newly found grown up tired Stone Cold Cop Killer in me… didn’t bat an eye… I aimed an pulled the trigger BLAM  BLAM BLAM 1,2,3… It was HIM or ME you MUST see… I emptied the entire clip right through the windshield… into the NWO U.N. blue NAFTA DHS TSA Whore’s red screaming face!!!
        Empty inside… now that I had unleashed all my NWO New World Order – Bilderberg Debt Slave Hate!
        I simply stood astride my stolen pink huffy steed… staring dead pan at the car’s brown vinyl covered rear seat, red blood, white bone chips and grey pink brain matter splattered over it. Staring through the shattered windshield and GAPING cavernous blood red hole that had been, Officer Friendly’s Red Raging New World Order U.N. blue NAFTA DHS TSA Cop Face.
        Humming to myself “BYE BYE AMERICAN PIE”… thinking “I’m still Hungry!”
        author after note:
        -Property of TekRoanin { There are over 600,000 unemployed war trained experienced Homeless poor starving Veterans just like our “hero” above living in the woods, abandoned homes or storm drains of your neighborhoods!} Just think about that for a moment America… there are more Veterans joining our ranks every day from the Illegal NWO Global Domination Wars and Economic Debt Slave War here in America. JUST PAUSE THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MINUTE!  Scary? Maybe a little. The Veterans Administration employee’s are FAILING to help Veterans in need! Living Fat like a greedy Hog on the pain and suffering of Veterans! V.A. = Eugenic’s!
        Wake up America, there are 1 million – 1,000,000 foreign troops and american traitor troops under the United Nations blue Flag, NAFTA blue and IMF Bank Control right now; at this very moment here on American, Canadian and Mexican soil. Just waiting for our Illegal President Obama to call MARTIAL LAW! Upon which time they will crash the dollar, invade america and place you all; america under their U.N. NWO IMF military control. It’s either YOU or THEM!!!
        U.N. AGENDA 21 is here! NOW is the time to… Talk to family and friends…
        AMERICA IS A LIE – owned controled by the family Rothschilds – The Bank Of England!
        You don’t elect a President – One is CHOOSEN FOR YOU!!! By the Real Owners of America! (( ObamaCrimes.Com)) BARRY SOETORO AKA OBAMA was Born in Kenya, He is adopted! An Illegal Alien Puppet runs America! WAKE UP AMERICA an FIGHT!!! (( ObamaCrimes.Com))
        US DC Capitol Hill, The President, US Supreme Court and Congress; ARE ALL BOUGHT AND PAID FOR = BRIBED!!! By AIPAC Israeli Jews GoldmanSachs Monsanto Rand Corporation etc etc…
        YOU ARE NOT FREE! You are DEBT SLAVES! Corporate Owned – Who Owns You?
        FALSE FLAG – 9/11 was An Inside Job! Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, George Bush Sr. w/ idiot son bush Jr. and Israeli Jew Massoud (CIA) FBI Illuminati Bilderberg Oligarchy Insiders Killed 3,000 + Americans and Blew Up the Twin Towers, Bldg 7 with Syntax Plastic Explosive! Twice! Oklahoma City Same crew then too with Bill Clinton Pushing the button! Murderers One and All! All Illuminati IMF Bank Owned! Wake Up! Open Your Eye’s! See the Truth! The US Gov, CIA, FBI, SS, US ARMY SF and Israeli Massoud Jews are the REAL TERRORISTS! Your Taxes are paying to “Kill” your own sons and daughters Sheeple! America is a LIE! Fight! FIGHT! You must FIGHT IT!
        They are NOT here to protect you! They are here to DisArm you – “Punish and Enslave!”
        To Force you all under their one world NWO U.N. CFR Tri-Lateral IMF WORLD BANK government!
        U.N. AGENDA 21 is here!
        If the color of your skin is any color of Brown – and you value your life – Beware the U.N. WHO Shots – All Shots! Israeli Jews, America, WHO, U.N., NATO is NOT your friend… RUN! They mean to Sterilize, abort your babies and Kill you – All! While they steal poor peoples organs to transplant into themselves – Real Oligarchy Vampires are now your MASTERS! Rise UP FIGHT!!!
        … spread the word.
        ;0P – psssszzzzzzt NWO

      18. Comments…..Magnix, No I still wish for my son to attend college and to finish. Both my children are very bright, receive good grades and have a lot of common sense. My son and I both hunt, put several deer and numerous ducks and geese in the freezer. We butcher our own meat as well as store it. I used to butcher hogs but the farmer that had let me raise them on his farm lost the place in foreclosure. My son has also learned how to do basic welding at college and took the course to fill in space between regular studies. Everyone in the family know how to handle firearms and load mags. My philosophy in education has always been this: The schools are responsible for teaching reading, writing, and arithmetic. Anything else they(my kids) need to know I’ll teach them myself.

      19. DK said
        As they get older encourage their participation in business, law, and government. Teach them to engage their government or be enslaved by it. Self determination belongs to those who claim it, demand it, and take ownership of their government.
        While I agree with everything else you said, engaging the government is what creates the slavery.  If your kids have a birth certificate, SSN, license of any kind, they are considered government property, not free men.
        I think it may be better to teach them to avoid the contractual traps set up to ensnare anyone who does engage the government.  If you ask for its help, you are corporation property.
        POd, the last line is 100% correct.  Other than those basics, schools only teach corporate citizenship and nothing else.

      20. College is a Debt Trap – where sheeple are taught to follow, taught to take orders and taught to work for someone and make the other man rich.

        I know this is hard to hear. Let me ask you a question… do you think this will be the same America ten years from now as it was for us growing up? What will America become in the future?

        I grew up lower middle class now that I look back. My grandparents taught me how to farm, fish, hunt, gather and prospect. We couldn’t afford hotels so we went camping for our vacation. It’s almost like I’ve been preparing my whole life for what is happening right now.

        College is a Debt Trap! People get mad when they see that I’m more successful than they are when they went to college and paid a hefty premium that took years to pay off and I became a business owner, an entrepreneur. I’m street smart and they’re book smart, so what. I have business skills and land skills and provide for my family while they rely on others for a paycheck, for vacation time and for security.

        College is a Debt Trap – very few make something real of it!

        Good luck – it’s a tough decision, we all want what’s best for our children.


      21. Comments…..I went to college for two years and received my AA degree. I got interested in HVAC mechanics and went to work with a friend after a ten year stint working for the state. I then gained my master license and have been in business for 18 years. I have never regretted working with my hands and each repair that I do is another mystery and challenge solved. My son does work with me when he isn’t attending class. He doesn’t desire to do what I do but thats ok, at least he can learn to repair his own someday and get a mechanical know how. The college education for your/our kids is one tough decision. BTW, I paid for my own college through working part time.

      22. I’m sorry guys, but for most of the comments, I couldn’t disagree less.  A lot of the comments here are talking about protesting taxes by not paying them.  Yeah, try that and see who the real slave is!  Spending “X” number of years in federal prison ain’t my idea of freedom.  Also, even if the country goes “kerplop” one day, I think it might be a tad more difficult to bug out of a prison.  I’m just sayin’.
        I don’t like funding a government that is progressively more and more tyrannical any more than anyone else.  However, they have created a system that makes it nigh impossible to fight against them.  Try it, and, suddenly, you are a radical home-grown terrorist.  Then, every law-enforcement agent in the country wants your head on a pike! The  good ole days are gone, boys and girls.
        Durango Kidd, That has got to be one of the best posts I’ve ever read….EVER!  I nearly cried.  I literally copied and pasted it into a word file (including your screen name and the date to give credit where credit is due) to reread over and over.  This was some of the best intelligent and “common sense” advice I’ve seen on the net.  I had about given up on the Internet.  You’ve restored my faith, man.  Please understand:  I don’t give out praise like this lightly.  Very few people impress me. Period.  You did.  Bravo!

      23. durango kidd said, “…respect the individuality of others. Practice what you preach…”


        And this whole notion of taking ownership of their government, along with the conditioning illustrated in the main article, it reminds me of someone trying to take ownership of the Mafia in the Godfather as well as the Tyranny of the Status Quo and the “up-for-grabs” hypothesis

        “After this process of buy-in [taking ownership of government] the tyranny of the status quo takes over. People will tend to affirm the new status quo… Over the longer term, since parents tend to pass on their political preferences to their children, this too will tend to uphold the status quo…

        …Their preferences were clear and firmly held at the outset, and they remained stable over the course of events. They may even have strengthened further.

        After a crisis has passed or a new law has been established without a crisis, the tyranny of the status quo takes over. There is no going back to the old social and political system. The rulers count on this happening…

        The main explanation of the tyranny of the status quo is “status quo bias.” The rulers create “events” that affect voter preferences. Once these events happen, the status quo bias sets in…

        Status quo bias is a cluster of decision-making behaviors that have been measured experimentally and observed in practice by researchers in behavioral economics and finance. For example, people randomly given coffee mugs are more reluctant to sell them than people randomly given money are to buy coffee mugs. The ownership of the mug itself changes their preferences in favor of the mug…

        There is no end to the devices one can use to create ownership in [government]… and they are the same as those used to move the people who are up-for-grabs…”

      24. In fact, I have never encountered anyone more disrespectful towards someone with an opposing viewpoint than I have with the character self-named durango kidd.
        I’m Fed Up With Constitution Worship!

        “I must say that I didn’t always feel this way, but I am now truly sick of hearing every day about how we should uphold, defend, and worship the U.S. Constitution. Yes, I am aware that if it were followed to the letter that we would all be somewhat better off, but was that ever the real intent? I think not.

        … our current constitution greatly expanded government power over the people, not the other way around, as most believe…

        The Anti-federalists had it right all along. The Articles of Confederation were certainly not perfect, but that constitution was a damn sight better than the one we have now. One single reading of Article 1, Section 8 of the current U.S. Constitution should literally scare the living daylights out of all who believe in freedom and liberty. In my opinion, Hamilton and his followers were able to fool and then co-opt enough of the political leaders of the time to bring about a massive change; a change that ushered in a much more powerful central governing system. This was entirely by design in my opinion, and was never intended to advance and protect the freedom of the individual. Had that been the case, slavery would never have been sanctioned by that same document. Why this system is so revered is beyond me. It can only be due to long-term indoctrination. I have been told since childhood of the greatness of the constitution by peers, by the school system, by politicians, by the media, and by virtually everyone else able to utter the spoken word. Considering this, it is no wonder that this mediocre document is worshiped by so many…”

      25. Clark: Do you ever form an opinion of your own, or do you check with lew rockwall to see if its ok to go to the potty?
        If I seem disrespectful towards your opinions its because they are so poorly formed, lack the knowledge and maturity of experience, and are expressed by someone who has no conception of living on their own, and making their own way in this world.
        1. You have never been in the military, yet believe you can comment without being challenged when you make ridiculous statements about the military.
        2. You have never been to B-school, had NO knowledge of the basic mechanisms of the Federal Reserve until I explained them to you, yet you continued to make ridiculous statements about the economy, banking system, collapse, recession and recovery by parroting others who don’t have a clue either.
        3. You misquote, mis-apply, and misrepresent the opinions of others, even the sources you quote, to bolster your argument, until you are caught, without apology to this community.
        Who is the hypocrite? 🙂
        In good conscience I cannot let your posted ignorance go unchallenged as there are people here looking for factual information, an understanding of banking and the economy, and prep information to help them, from those here who have that information and experience.
        The fact is, you don’t have any of that and are just a shill for lew rockwall to pump his site. Is that your dad? Are you Clark Rockwall? 🙂
        Are we, the posters on this site, suppose to debate the opinions of lew rockwall with you? If we wanted to debate the opinions of lew rockwall, we would be at the lew rockwall site.
        The fact of the matter is, and it is apparent to all, that you know next to nothing yourself, because you are just a kid living in your mothers basement and have neither the education, experience, or special expertise necessary to be believed about anything, and no one should take a cue from you about anything.
        Go get an education, get some experience, get a life, buy your own home, raise a family, and then come back here and make a post with some insight from your heart and mind as to what life is all about.
        Today you may be sick of hearing about the US Constitution, but the day will come soon enough, when that document is all that stands between you and One World Government. If you think things are bad now and going to get worse, you ain’t seen nothing yet. That you have no respect for that document is testament to your ignorance.
        Shit rolls downhill, and YOU son, are at the bottom of the food chain.

      26. Man Up: College or technical school is not a debt trap for those kids who borrow judiciously and approach it as a way to develop and leverage their knowledge and skills:

        Two-thirds of bachelor’s degree recipients graduated with debt in 2008, compared with less than half in 1993.

        Last year, graduates who took out loans left college with an average of $24,000 in debt. Default rates are rising, especially among those who attended for-profit colleges.

        According to a College Board report issued last fall, median earnings of bachelor’s degree recipients working full time year-round in 2008 were $55,700, or $21,900 more than the median earnings of high school graduates. And their unemployment rate was far lower.
        Particularly when the alternative for most would be a dead end job at the drive through window of Micky D’s or driving a forklift in some warehouse. Glad to hear you found your niche in life and are both happy and successful running your own business.
        A thriving, successful business gives one financial success and personal freedom, if managed correctly.  A family business is a great way to instill many virtues and positive values into your children.
        Not everyone is meant to be an engineer or lawyer or doctor; but those who are inclined toward higher education should not be deterred by its cost. It easily pays for itself.
        Like every product, education can be shopped and exploited for the best affordable opportunity. When college grads, on average, make about one million dollars more in their lifetime than high school graduates, they can surely afford the cost of education.
        And then of course there is the prospect of how a person must spend their working life without an education or skill set that would give them adequate financial compensation, a measure of independence, and control over their life: as opposed to working for someone else.
        The best investment anyone can make is in themselves.

      27. DK – I don’t disagree with you. Don’t get me wrong, I do believe a good education is extremely important, extremely. One needs to think for themselves and be happy in the career chosen. Your first sentence says it all.

        As I mentioned “few make anything of it” and that is my point. I want my kids to follow their passion, stay out of debt, and understand finance. I taught mine how to read a balance sheet and a P&L that I believe should be taught in high school.

        I did not go to college so I cannot speak from personal experience on what is taught, but I come across many college adults that are in dead end jobs and have student loans they’re still paying off… that’s my experience.
        I DO believe that students are taught to work for someone rather than add value and contribute to the community in which they reside – by becoming business owners. I know it’s not for everybody.

        I’m surely not one to give advice and I really don’t mean too here, I just speak from the heart. I don’t just throw words out there, I lead by example.


        I do have a fire in me that most don’t. People all the time tell me they want what I created but they are not willing to go through the sacrifice I did to get there. The instant gratification mentality, but they’ll go to college for four years and get in debt instead and then come work for me. They do add value as we share ideas.

        One of the best books I read that motivated me back in 2000 was Cash Flow Quadrant. Every child needs to read this before attending college or whatever, just read it.

        The best investment is in oneself, make it count!

        DK, you’re very good with words, you must be a college grad  : )

        @ clark – regarding your statement above, you need to ask yourself one question…. WHAT DO YOU STAND FOR???

      28. Smoking Okie: “My how times have changed”

        What a great illustration of how we have lost our simple human freedoms!

        But it is worse than many know. Many of our “laws” are now made by government employees. They are unknown to judges or attorneys but they are laws. And unlike legistated laws they have ZERO wiggle room for a judge to use. Either you are guilty or not. And if you are guilty you will do the time. All the time. They don’t care if no one ever heard of the law or if you have never even had a parking ticket before. These “laws” clearly state what must happen to you. They are being applied to many areas but especially to they people who grow the foods we eat.
        Some of these “laws” even conflict with the known laws so if you keep those but are in violation of the other you still get put in jail! When did it become legal for government employees to just write a law into existance? What happened to Congress and state assemblies?
          In communist Russia the police would say “Pick the man and I will find a law he voilated and put him in jail.”
        Welcome to Russia 2011.    🙁

      29. Nice commentary…heart warming, really…
        You’re a bunch of old people worrying about your children, but you’re too cowardly to do the one thing that might actually save them and all your descendents from slavery under the iron heel of the New World Order – fight.
        The time to stand up and fight was years ago.  Yet here you all are, aware of the NWO, decrying the perpetual advance of government tyranny, yet you do nothing.  You’re no better than the “sheeple.”  At least their ignorance excuses their lack of action.  What excuse do you have?
        They’ve got their hands down your pants if you refuse to have a naked photo taken of you and permanently stored for biometric identification purposes (and by the way they’ll probably get that nude photo clandestinely anyway once the technology evolves sufficiently to capture images of moving humans)
        they’re data mining and profiling your internet connection (most of you are already on one list or another because you’re sitting in your pathetic home on 1/4 an acre typing away on your ISP account registered to your name, blithely unaware that every single packet you send is being intercepted, mined, and added to your profile)
        they’re correlating all of that data with your bank records/credit card use/phone records etc.
        they’re sexually assaulting your children
        they’re training everyone to be a docile unquestioning slave
        And you just take it lying down.  You people like to banter the word “sheeple” around, but you ARE the sheeple.  A slave that is aware of his enslavement is still a slave.  Don’t be so arrogant, don’t feel so superior.  Most of you would be better off if you never discovered the truth about our society.  All it does is create unnecessary stress in your pathetic little lives.  After all, you won’t do anything about it, won’t try to escape your cages, won’t fight for your freedom – so who CARES that you are in some “super sekrit klub” of physical silver owning old fogies.
        The “survivalist” movement is a joke.  A bunch of old people nesting is all it amounts to.  You’re just consumerist slaves of a slightly different persuasion, no different than the oblivious ones you feel so superior to.
        This is a fight or flight situation.  Shelter in place ain’t an option.  Either start fighting NOW or leave the country.  Your wooden home on 1/2 an acre with a bunch of junk in the basement ain’t gonna stand up to the NWO.  But they’ll never come for you, why would they?  You’re an obedient little sheep, you go to work, you pay your taxes, and you even spend all your money on profitable garbage like survival food/supplies/physical metals sold to you by major corporations.  So you make some noise on the internet?  Nobody cares.
        I’m leaning towards flight, and soon.  This is not the country I thougth it was.  This is not the country I grew up in.

      30. I have long told my kids ( 13 and 17 ) to consider going to a trade school instead of college and focus on learning something like refrigeration, HVAC or electrical troubleshooting and instrumentation.
        I am one of the lucky ones. I am in a virtually recession-proof field that almost NO one even considers…I’m a wastewater technician for a municipality. Water and wastewater treatment are constantly  in need of hands as most of the current workers (like myself) are ready or almost ready to retire. Yet no one tells students about these fields on career day.

      31. Hey Hot Toddy!  What process do you use to extract the heavy metals from the waste water?
        Also, anything else needed for a home made, portable, pvc pipe water purifier besides sterilized sand, gravel, and charcoal? Any recommendations?

      32. durango kidd, what a childish crock you put forth.

        You spew the government line time and time again so it’s no wonder you don’t understand the info that I post from many different sources.

        durango kidd said, “I have both a shopping center development and commercial appraisal background.”

        That seems to explain how you got so good at encouraging People to invest in bubbles and a lot of other things too.

        Repeatedly I have shown you how you have falsely and incorrectly accused me of misquoting, mis-applying, and misrepresenting the opinions of others, but it does no good, you simply ignore it and go on and make one unsubstantiated assumption after another.

        durango kidd asked, “Who is the hypocrite?”

        You are, durango kidd.

        Man Up asked, “…WHAT DO YOU STAND FOR???”

        Liberty and freedom, pretty simple stuff but it requires thought, something few are willing to do.

      33. Yes Clark, I spew the government line. The government that our Founding Fathers gave US. We are the government Clark, and if we want the government that our Founding Fathers gave US, then we must BE that government. Engage your government or be enslaved by it. Its that simple, really.
        The only investments that I have encouraged people to make are in metals (duh!), preps (duh), and real estate if they can, and if they can find a bargain. Most of all I have encouraged people (and kids like you), to invest in an education. An investment in oneself is the best investment one can make.
        For example, the average new college grad makes $50k and has $24k in student loans. Hardly “debt peonage”.  A high school kid with a $12 hr job will go out and spend that much money for a new car that depreciates in value.
        When I said that you and other high school grads of your generation are on the bottom of the food chain, I was being sincere. Your generation is fucked without a higher education! You will not be able to survive on Adsense income in a double digit inflationary world.
        The bitterness which permeates your posts is not an attitude that will assist you to escape your current status. Only a real education will do that for you. Get your “papers”. Join the military. They will train you. Tell them you can cut and paste.
        I suppose your misrepresentation of Dr North’s article never happened? Or taking my comments out of context and misapplying them never happened? You are not only a hypocrite, Clark, but a liar too.
        You are an intelligent kid wasting your time, Clark. You are not going to win an argument on this site with inferior education, little practical experience, and no special expertise.
        Give it up. Or tell me more about your real estate expertise!!!! 🙂

      34. durango kidd said, “…We are the government…”

        HAHAHA, as if.

        America’s Ruling Class — And the Perils of Revolution

        “Who are these rulers, and by what right do they rule? How did America change from a place where people could expect to live without bowing to privileged classes to one in which, at best, they might have the chance to climb into them? What sets our ruling class apart from the rest of us?”

        durango kidd said, “…if we want the government that our Founding Fathers gave US, then we must BE that government…”

        The U.S. Constitution: Tool of Centralization and Debt, 1788-Today

        “The Constitution was established in order to strengthen the powers of the Federal government. It strengthened them vastly beyond what the British had attempted to impose on the colonies in the early 1770s.”

        Spewing the government line:

        durango kidd said, “… inflation is nothing…”

        “In today’s NYT, Paul Krugman concludes a post:

        ….there’s nothing here to suggest any reason to consider inflation a problem.

        Mark this date down, April 16, 2011 and Krugman still sees no price inflation problem…”

        durango kidd said, “…Join the military. They will train you…”

        Should Anyone Join the Military?

        “Here are seven reasons why I think that no one, regardless of his religion or lack of it, should join today’s military.

        1. Joining the military may cost you your limbs, your mind, or even your life…”

        durango kidd said, “When I said that you and other high school grads of your generation are on the bottom of the food chain, I was being sincere. Your generation is fucked without a higher education!…”

        Higher Education by Doug French:

        “…60 percent of the increase in college grads end up working in jobs where a degree isn’t required…”

        This one was really good:

        Misunderstanding Higher Education

        “Why do you need a university? If all you want is a good education, the only excuse for attending a university is that you need academic hand-holding. Read a hundred books in your field, and you won’t need hand-holding…”

        In a previous post I fully demonstrated how you were mistaken when you mistakenly accused me of misrepresenting Dr North’s article. You have a selective reading and comprehension difficulty. As to your other accusation about taking your comments out of context, more b.s..

        I kept thinking of durango kidd when I read this next bit:

        “Let’s examine some of the telltale signs of the useful idiot…

        …When confronted with a truth that threatens their established world view, useful idiots will do anything to distract or derail the exchange. Making bad jokes, resorting to childish ridicule, ignoring cold hard logic, making threats, denying you are qualified to present the facts, even though the facts speak for themselves no matter who is relaying them, etc. Rarely will they confront the truth you present on its own terms. Instead, they will try to make YOU the issue of discussion, and not your information…”

      35. Clark: Clark: You can look for all the reasons to fail that you want. And I have no doubt that you will, then spend your life in your mother’s basement doing just that.

        I could find and tell you many reasons not to do anything, whatever it is: whether it is borrowing money, joining the military, or not reading and understanding your rights and responsibilities under the US Constitution. People that succeed in life find a reason to do something and then they take a reasonable risk for a just reward to achieve that goal.
        Education is a no-brainer, Clark. $24k in debt for a four year degree that starts a career at $50k is a bargain. That is an argument you cannot win. What is your response to that? Oh thats right, it was the 900 billion dollar example. Brilliant! 🙂
        And second tier school lawyers? The worst ones in Arizona make 80K a year as public defenders. And what was your brilliant response to that, Clark? 🙂
        And then of course there was your “real estate expertise”. Tell me more about that Clark! 🙂
        Clark I debunked all of your arguments as being not factual, including, and especially, the article by Dr North. You took a quote out of context, skewing the entire meaning of his article.
        I was not even commenting on this thread when you took my quotes out of context from another thread and used them to name me and attack me here behind my back, when it appeared as if I wasn’t following the comments here. What a weasel!!! 🙂
        I destroyed your ignorance of the Federal Reserve as you didn’t know its basic mechanisms, that even a freshman college business student would know and understand, showing you had no college B-school. 🙂
        It is an ad hominem  attack when the attack does not relate to the qualifications of the person being attacked. You present yourself as an expert by cutting and pasting when you know nothing yourself; and have neither the education, experience, or special expertise to make such comments. You are not believable and your ignorance is apparent from your posts. 🙂
        The bottom line is that the people who read these posts are experienced, and educated with degrees or trades or certificates of some kind and have lived long enough to know that they can’t sit in their mother’s basement, piss and moan, cut and paste, and bemoan their fate and expect a free ride as you apparently do. Life is meant to be lived, to try, to achieve, even to fail. Then try again and again and again if necessary.
        If they expect someone else to pay them for what they do, they know they must perform using the education and skills that they have developed. I don’t think you or anyone else in your generation is going to get very far on your philosophy without an education, trade, or certificate. If you think you can live on Adsense in a double digit inflationary world, or make a living cutting and pasting, good luck.
        Let the others of your generation read our arguments and decide for themselves whether they should borrow $24k to qualify for $50k or more with a degree, if they are inclined toward a higher education; as opposed to working at a low wage low skill job for the rest of their lives.
        No one who wants a higher education should be deterred from borrowing money to get one when the numbers are clearly in their favor. Degrees, certificates, and trades are a way to take some control of your life and create you own destiny.
        As for joining the military, yes, it may cost you and arm, a leg, or your life; which reminds me of my homey, Daniel Dant. Danny and I were in the Marines together in Viet Nam. Thankfully, we both made it home in one piece.
        I saved my pay to go to college when I got back to the “world”. Danny saved his money to buy a Harley. After we got back from Nam, I went to the University. Danny went for a ride on his Harley on a beautiful Sunday afternoon. He lost his arm, his leg, and his life, when a drunk driver crossed the centerline and ripped him in half. He was only 21 years of age an a Marine Viet Nam Veteran.
        There are no guarantees in life, not even a guarantee of life; but there is no good reason not to try to reach your full potential as a human being, or pursue your dreams if you have the guts to go for it: even if someone has to borrow for it. Otherwise a person will consign themselves to their mother’s basement cutting and pasting trying to convince others to be a miserable non-achiever like themselves. 🙂
        Think it over Clark. There’s time to enroll for next fall and get a loan!:-)

      36. In 2005, housing was called, “a no-brainer” as well, that didn’t work out too well, did it?
        The “Education Bubble”
        Student Loan Debt Passes Credit Card Debt

        ““A true bubble is when something is overvalued and intensely believed,… Education may be the only thing people still believe in in the United States. To question education is really dangerous. It is the absolute taboo. It’s like telling the world there’s no Santa Claus.”

        Like the housing bubble, the education bubble is about security and insurance against the future. Both whisper a seductive promise into the ears of worried Americans: Do this and you will be safe. The excesses of both were always excused by a core national belief that no matter what happens in the world, these were the best investments you could make. Housing prices would always go up, and you will always make more money if you are college educated.

        …“You have to get rid of the future you wanted to pay off all the debt from the fancy school that was supposed to give you that future.”…

        Deanne Loonin, a lawyer at the National Consumer Law Center, said education debt was not good debt for the low-income borrowers she works with, most of whom are in default.”…

        Debt for Diploma Schemes and the Cookie Monster Principle

        “Art” writes:

        Thank you once again for exposing the corrupt government policies involving student loans. I also largely worked my way through undergraduate and three graduate programs. When I was in my doctoral program we were able to borrow tuition-level amounts from Pell grants. Those proved quite difficult to repay actually. Just after I finished these programs the loan mavens raised the available amounts, made the loans immune to bankruptcy, and people began borrowing tuition and lifestyle support monies.

        The part that you may not be aware of is that financial vampirism has now come full circle with many Universities FORBIDDING graduate students to have any part time employment. They now MUST borrow a full ride. At our hospital we have medical and other advanced students in trainee status. The medical students tell me that they will graduate with over $300,000 in student loans and the Psychology students (depending on their schools) as much as $200,000+ in student loan debt. This means that these professionals must find the most lucrative practice subspecialties to enter or they will never be able to repay these mountains of debt. Many will fail.

        The social stupidity of all this is unbelievable. We have a generation of financially crippled professionals coming on. We need these people in the areas of their training, particularly general practices, clinics etc. and yet many will not be functional because they will be fleeing from debt collectors or competing for scarce positions. Many will simply become disillusioned and quit. They will not be able to afford the amenities of life, having families etc. if they play by the rules. On the government-public policy side we have malinvested gigantic quantities of money and degraded the resource, health professionals, that we were attempting to improve.



        India, and the Economic Folly of a College Degree

        ““…if an equal proportion of people were educated at the public expence, the competition would soon be so great, as to sink very much their pecuniary reward.” Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations, p. 151

        …just as over-issuance of a currency relative to demand ultimately reduces its value, the drive to make college a pedestrian right has made the diploma increasingly worthless. If not already, soon enough the wage disparity between those with and without degrees will be hard to discern…”

        Inflation Destroys Real Wages

        “…economic history has proven over and over again that real wages actually decrease during periods of rising inflation. Nominal incomes do increase, but this is merely a response to the inflation that has already been created…

        Recent economic data provides clear proof that the “wage-price spiral” alleged by Keynesian economists is plainly wrong…

        Nominal wages and salaries eventually rise but always slower than the rate of inflation, causing real wages to fall…”

        “Only 1,065 of the 1,913 public and private nonprofit colleges in the U.S. provided complete student debt data to the Project on Student Debt.

        Of those schools, average student loan debt ranged from as little as $3,000 to as much as $61,500; with 72 colleges reporting average debt of more than $35,000.”

      37. durango kidd said, “…The worst ones in Arizona make 80K a year as public defenders…”
        Maybe after they have been a lawyer for five years.
        According to the Arizona Bar Association the median salary of a lawyer with 1yr. of experience is ~$57,000. I suspect an entry level position with no experience is much less than $57,000

        Salary for Bar Association: Arizona Bar Association Updated: 17 Apr 2011

      38. I have nothing to add to the discussion but I want to say that “clark” clearly has this “durango kidd” guy severely outgunned.  “Clark” writes like an educated person (formally or informally, educated just the same) that has been around for a while.  The “kidd” writes like someone that spent most of their life watching TV.

      39. Mals: You want some of this conversation? 🙂 If you’re feeling froggy, jump!!
        The fact is Clark doesn’t write anything of his own. All he does is cut and pastes the opinion of others. In particular he is a shill for lou rockwall. Lou must be his dad!

      40. Clark: Thanks for taking the bait! 🙂 Your tenacity is admirable but in the context of your arguments it only magnifies your ignorance.

        You never fail to disappoint. True to form and following your MO, you have taken my example of Public Defenders making $80K which I used to example the income of a typical attorney (on the lower end), and submitted your own example of a new lawyer with one year of experience making $57K in Arizona. You should understand that nationally, compensation for new attorneys vary widely from $58K to $118k.
        Obviously it makes a big difference where one is located as to what the entry level compensation might be. Even so, living expenses would be higher for new attorneys in NYC, Boston, Washington DC, and Los Angeles, than say Phoenix.
        It is not necessary for a new attorney to accumulate $100K in student loans to get his education and obtain a law degree, but let’s assume he does. Let’s use your numbers, Clark, taken from the Arizona Bar to justify indebting oneself for a higher education, or not. Is it worth it?

        Let everyone judge for themselves using the info selected, then cut and pasted by Clark

        Bar Association: Arizona Bar Association
        Median Salary by Years Experience

        Years Experience

        National Salary Data (?)





        Less than 1 year


        1-4 years


        5-9 years


        10-19 years


        20 years or more


        In order to determine the compensation that the typical attorney makes over his or her lifetime according to the above chart, and to determine whether it makes sense to borrow money to get that education, it is necessary to first compute the cost of the loan. Use the Amount of $100K, by say, a 5% interest rate and a loan period of 10 or 15 years. If you use the longer loan period, the aggregate amount of interest and principle is higher. Let’s use 15 years, Clark.

        Compute the future value of the total payments of principle and interest. Deduct that sum from the gross earnings of the typical attorney over his working life.

        Working life will be identified as 40 years for the purposes of this analysis as that is the retirement age for most workers at the present time is 65. Lawyers often practice, if only as rainmaker figureheads for their firms into their 70’s and 80’s. But to compare the lifetime earnings of the typical attorney to well, anyone, let’s just use the lower age of 65.

        Multiply the $67,138 by 4

        Multiply the $93,070 by 5

        Multiply the $117, 406 by 10

        Multiply the $124, 144 by 21

        Add in the first year earnings of $57,975 to determine the total lifetime earnings of a typical attorney working for 40 years. Deduct the computed future value of the loan amount and interest paid from the total lifetime earnings.

        The numbers assume an attorneys income is stagnant in the last 21 years of their working life. In reality this is their most financially productive years.

        It’s a no-brainer Clark.

      41. durango kidd said, “…You should understand that nationally, compensation for new attorneys vary widely from $58K to $118k.”

        Then there’s this:

        “The median starting salary for lawyers is about $57,000, but actual salaries depend on the kind of work a lawyer performs. Median is not an average of all starting lawyers’ salaries; it is the number in the center of the distribution. There are far more jobs below the median than above. Government attorneys for the Department of Justice, Department of Labor and the Environmental Protection Agency, for example, all make less than $50,000 at entry level. The starting salary at most public defender’s offices is below $40,000…”

        durango kidd said, “…a 5% interest rate and a loan period of 10 or 15 years… It’s a no-brainer… Deduct that sum from the gross earnings of the typical attorney over his working life…”

        Who says interest rates will stay low at 5%?
        Who says the job will be there in 10 years, or even in two?
        Who says wages will rise faster than inflation over that time period?

        Didn’t you read the article, Inflation Destroys Real Wages?
        Don’t you understand the implications of the comment: “where do the employers get the money to pay those higher wages?”

        Didn’t you see the new trend?:
        Obama announces 2-year pay freeze for federal workers

        durango kidd said, “Multiply the $67,138
        Multiply the $93,070
        Multiply the $117, 406
        Multiply the $124, 144”

        Who says the state of Arizona, or any state for that matter, can continue to afford to pay those huge increases in wages?

        Add in the first year earnings of $40,000 and multiply that figure for every year and see how it works out with significantly rising costs of living.
        Remember the phrase, inflation by a thousand cuts? Who was it that used to say that?

        “Nominal wages and salaries eventually rise but always slower than the rate of inflation, causing real wages to fall.” – from Inflation Destroys Real Wages.

      42. Also, consider this:

        States see biggest revenue drop in 60 years

        “In a sign of the sluggish economy’s devastating impact, state government revenue across the country dropped by nearly one third in 2009 – the sharpest decline in 60 years, the Census Bureau said in a new report.

        States saw record-breaking losses to their pension funds and in their tax revenues, as the recession wreaked havoc on payrolls and investments,

        Revenues plummeted by 30.8 percent, from $1.6 trillion in 2008 to $1.1 trillion in 2009, according to the report.

        It was the most dramatic drop the Census Bureau has seen since it began collecting state revenue data in 1951.

        States reported a total $477 billion drop in “insurance trust revenue” – mostly money from pension funds, while tax collections fell by $66 billion.

        And the worst may still be to come.

        Fiscal 2012 “will actually be the most difficult budget year for states ever,” said Nicholas Johnson, director of the state fiscal project at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, in an interview with The Washington Post.

        The center reported last month that states will see budget shortfalls totaling more than $140 billion next year as they continue to wrestle with depressed revenue levels while federal stimulus dollars and reserves run out.”

        The States Where People Can’t Afford Gas

        “This analysis shows the extent to which the US economy cannot be viewed as a whole–an undifferentiated collection of 50 states. Some states on this list, like Alabama or West Virginia, could be tipped back into a local recession because of a combination of high gas prices and low wages…”

        And finally:

        “With… quotas reaching 2,000 hours per year or more, an attorney making $100,000, actually has an hourly rate of only about $50 per hour. In reality, this can be even lower depending on the number of hours worked not considered billable.”

      43. Clark: For the $58k-S118K starting pay for new attorneys nationally, I quoted from the source you wanted to use to establish the pay scale. Now you want to lower the starting point from the number you chose?  🙂 Go ahead. It changes the bottom line somewhat but doesn’t change the rational decision that education pays; and pays very well over the term of a person’s life: even if you have to borrow some money to get that education.

        Want to use a higher interest rate? Go ahead. Student loans that I am aware of are fixed. Get as ridiculous as you want. It only shows your double standard. Besides. really smart legal professionals will incorporate a PC before going to law school and then deduct the cost of education as a business expense.

        Job not there? Start your own law firm or go back to your mother’s basement and cut and paste. There are no guarantees in life. Life is a risk. It’s been that way since the missing link climbed down from the trees.

        No inflation was factored into the numbers you wanted to use to establish lifetime earnings. And true incomes for attorneys after 20 years of practice were obviously not included in the chart you linked to, as the PTB do not want US to understand the increasing gap between the haves and have nots. I got mine because I took a risk: many risks. Get yours.

        If you want to lower the starting point ok, but then I think it is only reasonable to raise the income in latter years from the fixed number stated.

        If you want to factor in inflation, go ahead. Use your own number. Just factor that inflation in over the lifetime earnings too. Attorneys, of all professionals, are not going to eat the cost of inflation and not pass it on to their customers. They are the PTB; the priests of this modern Egypt who get their percentage from everything.

        The income for attorneys that was quoted was for all attorneys not just for attorneys working as state or county employees. Don’t you read the info you cut and paste? Are we back now to Public Defenders? And no I didn’t follow your links. I never follow your links. I learned my lesson the first time with Dr. North’s article.

        The “new 2 year trend for federal workers” does not apply to the data you chose to use from AZ to prove your point last time. The number of federal attorneys in AZ included in those numbers would be quite small. What you have proven (again) is that you know nothing yourself and continue to move the data and context to fit your next wild assertion in a vain attempt to win your argument. It didn’t work.

        Real wages will fall for workers, particularly for workers with only a high school diploma like yourself, but attorneys with their own practices will just increase the cost of their services to meet the cost of operation of their business.

        If they do not pay their talented professionals that are generating the income for the firm, those attorneys will leave and start their own law firm. It happens every day for those attorneys who do not make Partner.

        Which is exactly my point for those kids in your generation debating whether or not to borrow some money to get an education and control their own destiny, rather than work for wages and make someone else rich.

        Get an degree, certificate. or trade or fall behind. Education pays. The numbers don’t lie, Clark, but you do! 🙂

      44. You are so childish, especially your fascination with smearing my character with untrue accusations, per the article above, it is a classic application of the fuzzy logic of useful idiots.

        I have not lied about anything.
        I did make one mistake, around 2006 they did change how interest rates are calculated, they are now fixed, but that does not change the overall economics of the issue.

        For instance, if public defenders quit (and were laid off) in large numbers to start their own business this would lower the price lawyers can charge thus lowering income.
        The increase of People with new law degrees puts even further downward pressure on the price lawyers can charge. These trends are accelerating.

        The statement, “where do the employers get the money to pay those higher wages?” seems to go right over your head, whoosh.

        durango kidd said, “Attorneys… are not going to eat the cost of inflation and not pass it on to their customers.”

        You’re completely ignoring the proven idea that, “Nominal wages and salaries eventually rise but always slower than the rate of inflation, causing real wages to fall…”

        It’s as if the substitution principle doesn’t exist.

        It’s as if the real wages and discretionary income of everyone else falling has no bearing on what lawyers can charge.
        Housing bubble popping ring any bells?

        It’s as if everyone Except lawyers are going to experience a lowering of income due to inflation and general increases in unemployment.

        It’s as if the issues raised in the Forbes article above don’t come into play.

        It’s as if you’re a Keynesian stuck on the idea that what worked in the past will work in the future because it has always been so.
        Some People might call that, being stuck on stupid.

        M.I.T. Calls Academia’s Bluff

        “…about half of college freshmen don’t graduate, even after six years… those who do graduate enter a job market in which only 20% of graduates can find a non-minimum wage job.

        The graduates are four to six years older, minimally educated, have no full-time work experience, and have forfeited four to six years of income. I call this “formally certified stupidity.”…

        Under no circumstances — none — should a family or a student go into debt for college

        Parents, save your money. Have your college-bound children stay at home and pay for their own educations by using AP/CLEP/DSST exams at $60 per course, plus on-line distance education at $100 to $125 per semester unit, plus local apprenticeship with a salary are the way for your children to pay for their own college educations. This takes the risk out of the deal for you. With a 50% drop-out rate, there is huge risk…”

      45. Oh, my, my,….the certified Lew Rockwell link.  That means that everything in the post is all true, no matter how stupid it sounds, if there is any link at all to Lew Rockwell…..(jerkoff), then it must be the same truth as Jesus himself.

      46. Why Jonny V, what a fine example of the fuzzy logic of useful idiots you have there.

      47. Clark; Everyone can calculate the numbers for themselves and make their own decision. You are on the wrong side of this argument and everyone knows it. There is no good rationale or evidence to support the idea that individuals should not borrow money to pursue higher education. On the contrary, the numbers prove it. That you continue to try to win an un-winnable argument is pathetic.

        Since you are the “great financial expert” on this site, Clark, I am sure you know how to compute Future Value and have at least two different financial calculators capable of doing so, or maybe you prefer to use an Excel spreadsheet. You probably already have a shortcut on file.  Use it. Apply that MBA of yours Clark! use your CFA license Clark!

        Subtract that value from the lifetime earnings for lawyers based upon your own numbers and add on $40k instead of $57K. Doesn’t change anything much does it? Wanna factor in inflation? Do it. Use your own numbers Clark, just apply them across the board. Here’s a link for you!

        The numbers don’t lie, Clark, but you do! 🙂

      48. Well how would you know if There is no good rationale or evidence to support the idea that individuals should not borrow money to pursue higher education if you haven’t even bothered to look at the articles I posted which contain a great deal of evidence and support, and boatloads of testimonials from People who are living it now,… and it’s not working out so well for them.

        However; I think I have posted enough info here already to prove so. The example of a public defender relying on state governments to continue business as usual was a prime example.
        How does a freeze on state payroll or a lay off change your calculations?

        When I said add in $40,000 I meant just that, no increases. Things don’t look so good then.

        And for those few lawyers who do manage to squirm their way into making $100,000 yr. notice the text in bold above, sometimes it is really less than $50 per hour with lots of unpaid hours.

        At any rate, the calculations you are so heavily relying on are based on Past performance and are Not a reliable indication of future expectations.

        Unless you like to play pretend and think the future is going to be just like the past?

        Our “Let’s Pretend” Economy

        “There are two economies–the real one, which is in decline, and the “let’s pretend” one touted by the State and corporate propaganda machines.

        Children love to play “let’s pretend.” Let’s pretend the economy is “recovering.”…

        Let’s play pretend that jobs are really really coming back,…

        Also ignore that Big U.S. Firms Are Shifting Hiring Abroad…

        Let’s pretend that households, corporations and government are reducing their debt…

        Let’s pretend that wages are rising. Except they aren’t–household income is getting creamed. Real wages are back to the pre-dot-com bubble days of 1996–only the debt load on households and the nation have skyrocketed…

        Let’s pretend your purchasing power isn’t in a free-fall…

        Let’s pretend unemployment is falling…

        …there are fewer people working to support the population. Fewer workers means higher taxes on those still standing, and higher debt loads on them, too, as they have to service household debt, student loans, underwater mortgages and a Federal debt that’s exploded higher by $1 trillion a year just since the “end of the recession.”…”  

        Haven’t you said a number of times you thought the economy wasn’t going to crash this year, but in five years it would? If so, aren’t you setting People up, by loading them with debt just when SHTF? Especially for those People who don’t graduate or find a high paying job, i.e. the majority of students.
        Don’t you think there are better ways other than following the Keynesian solution of adding debt to solve problems?

      49. Not very many People want to be lawyers.
        A majority of People want to pursue other endeavors.

        Some People have avoided the public school scam by home schooling, for those People and others who may wish to avoid college and The Dark Lords of Student Loan Debt while seeking education and employment there are options.
        It’s kind of like avoiding the TSA grope.

        Don’t Go to College, Miss V.
        Even if it’s “free,” says Gary North, college will hurt your career.

      50. Clark: Now you want to change careers?   🙂   Guess your argument for lawyers and doctors didn’t work, did it dumbshit? The numbers always work. Because education always pays! Try truck driver. It costs about $4,000 to get a CDL. Use the same formula:

        Compute the  Future Value of the cost of borrowing for a CDL license.

        Use $4,000 for the amount of the loan.
        Use any reasonable interest rate.  
        Use five or seven years for loan period. 

        Find Future Value.

        To determine whether it is worth it for a truck driver to get a CDL education and license, sum the yearly wages for a truck driver over 40 years. I believe OTR drivers start at $30k, expect some increase in wages over time, but for the sake of YOUR argument, make no adjustment for inflation.

        Deduct the Future Value  from the total gross life time earnings for a OTR truck driver.  DUH!

        Guess education didn’t work for Dr. Gary North!!!   

      51. Clark; The argument for lawyers wasn’t about public defenders, it was about attorneys in general and we used the numbers you wanted.

        Every generation of workers have difficulty. Right now, engineers are highly desired. Back in the late seventies and early eighties, engineers without a job were a dime a dozen. Right now, MBA’s are highly desired, some day maybe, but not likely, they will not have an edge in employment.   

        Look around, Clark. Who are the wealthy? Who are the 80% of the people who are successful and who are working? Your arguments are IRRATIONAL. That is why you cannot win them.

        I don’t disagree with your perception of what is happening in the economy; but it always happens. This time it is happening to a greater degree than it has in a very long time. It is all the more reason to get an education, certificate, or trade, Adapt or die (starve).   

        Yes, I believe the crash comes in five years; but not due to economic collapse. The cause I believe will be EMP or Pole Shift, or the big one in So Cal , That is what I believe crushes the economy. In the meantime, prep, and prepare, and get an education, certificate, or trade. It increases one’s chances of success.

        You can seek to justify your own lack of education any way you want.  The numbers don’t lie. If you want to cling to your beliefs, cling! Let everyone look at our arguments and decide for themselves. I see no reason to waste any more time with you.

        Good luck! hey! I will always spot you the bucket and squeegee if you move to  AZ, and I will explain how to get your education for cheap! Don’t count on the “Adjustment Bureau”. They may be busy. The future belongs to those who create it!  🙂

      52. My argument for lawyers and doctors worked out pretty well, what else was there to add? Obviously you didn’t bother to read what the law and medical students had to say – real world examples, not statistics on a government chart.

        You say to, “Deduct the Future Value  from the total gross life time earnings for a OTR truck driver…” and yet you still “play pretend” and don’t consider what a worsening economy and increasing regulations does to job numbers and wages. To you, this is “just” another recession.

        You likely think the sub-prime lending during the housing bubble was a good plan of action too and the recovery in house prices is just around the corner.

        You say, “The numbers always work… expect some increase in wages over time…” meaning you still fail to understand that high levels of inflation means there Are No Increases in Wages. Typical Keynesian.
        The idea of an economy propped up by a broke consumer and GDP depending on government spending has no meaning for you?

        A portion of the argument began with public defenders, it all started with your comment, “And second tier school lawyers? The worst ones in Arizona make 80K a year as public defenders.”

        I showed you the facts, the majority of public defenders make far less than that. And from there it went…

        Amazingly you quoted a source, “…median earnings of bachelors degree recipients working full time year-round in 2008 were $55,700 or $21,900 more than the median earnings of high school graduates. And their unemployment rate was far lower.”

        That’s another way of saying, many People with bachelors degrees and loads of debt make the same income as those with a high school degree and many People with bachelors degrees have to accept low wage jobs to keep from becoming unemployed.

        You say, “…$24k in debt for a four year degree that starts a career at $50k is a bargain.”

        But it’s Not a bargain if there is no job or the salary is not high enough to pay expenses and pay down debt. Not to mention other factors such as the time wasted in classes when the time could have been better spent elsewhere such as working and learning on the job.

        You also fail to understand what a bubble in educational loans means for the future. Hint: it’s just like sub-prime lending was.

        No member of any generation is, “fucked without a higher education!” especially if 80% of the jobs don’t require anything more than a high school diploma, if that.

        You ask, “Who are the wealthy?”

        The answer is: America’s Ruling Class

        … and you don’t buy your way in with an education or by obtaining debt.

        You say, “Who are the 80% of the people who are successful and who are working?”

        Wiki Answers says, In the U.S., “of those 25 years of age and over in 2000, Only 33% had a college degree.”

        Where do you pull your 80% figure from?
        Is there a rabbit there too?

        Wikipedia says, “…Overall the average American, age 25 or older, made roughly $32,000 per year,[5] does not have a college degree,… lives in his or her own home in a suburban setting, and holds a white-collar office job…

        The professional/managerial fields were the only two occupational fields where college graduates with a Bachelor’s degree or higher represented the majority…

        professional occupations… 68.2%
        Business and managerial occupations… 53.4%”

        That does Not look like 80% to me.

        Your ability to apply the Fuzzy Logic of Useful Idiots is astounding, and Wow, do you ever lack class.

      53. US Economic Outlook: Default, Hyperinflation or Both

        “To the adults who can appreciate adult-level conversation, I say, “If you are not concerned about the destruction of the buying power of the dollar because of the insane trillion-dollar increases in the money supply by the Federal Reserve or the ludicrous Obama deficit-spending trillions of dollars that necessitated it, then you’re an idiot!

        …“Professors Rogoff and Reinhart … show that when external debt passes 73% of GDP or 239% of exports, the result is default, hyperinflation, or both… IMF data show the US already too far gone on both scores, with external debt at 96% of GDP and 748% of exports… The system will collapse on its own.”

      54. How Will the Empire End?

        “The United States can no longer “pay for its own elevated living standards or its wasteful, overly large military establishment.” … The spending continues because of a false patriotism and economic ignorance: “It is hard to imagine any sector of the American economy more driven by ideology, delusion, and propaganda than the armed services.” But “the estimated trillion dollars we spend each year on the military and its weaponry is simply unsustainable.” …”

      55. I wonder if that little girl at the top of this page understands? Very few others do, to them it’s all Sunshine and Lollipops:

        Martial Law in the Land of Confusion!

        “…This is only the beginning, and most Americans don’t expect nor do they realize that the probability of marching feet in our own streets is great. This will not come from invaders from abroad, but by our own federal government and its agents in the police and military.

        These things rarely happen all at once due to the danger to the ruling class of an uprising by the people. Generally, liberty and freedom are taken away over long periods of time, and the masses at large are little aware of this very dangerous slippery slope…

        The TSA gropes, fondles, and intimidates those traveling daily. This is done to instill fear, and to habituate the sheep like populace into a herd mentality. It is meant to turn the citizens into serfs…”

      56. An example of the future under hyperinflation or default?
        And, what a bad spot to be in if you have debt:

        Cash-strapped AirZim Mulls Massive Lay-offs

        “The national carrier … is also planning to stop servicing some of its unprofitable routes as part of the desperate cost-cutting measures…

        The airliner has reportedly been paying workers allowances, which were cut by 70% with engineers, pilots and senior staff being the most affected…”

      57. Part 1: Economy Flight 666 – Our One-Way Ticket to Zimbabwe

        “…Ben Bernanke, is either an economic imbecile or a financial terrorist.  Through evil intent, or sheer stupidity, the outcome remains unchanged.  The bottom-line: He has hijacked our economy flight and changed our destination.  Bernanke is about to crash Flight 666 and all 308 million of us sitting helplessly in the passenger cabin into Zimbabwe’s airport known as Hell’s Hyperinflation Field.

        The simple, historically proven, translation for Ben Bernanke’s “I guess I don’t agree with your premise,” and, or, “I’m not sure I accept your premise” is this: ‘It’s an effing certainty.’  ‘Bank on it.’  ‘Bet on it.’  ‘It [hyperinflation as the result of a currency I made totally worthless by monetizing debt] will happen.’

        … Fiat currency crises are regular events, the average unbacked paper (Fiat) currency lasts 39 years, ours is 40 years off the gold standard.  There have been 3,800 Fiat currencies that have failed.  Not one has ever lasted.  

        Part 2: Economy Flight 666 – Our One-Way Ticket to Zimbabwe

        “The Fed’s FOMC minutes discuss CEO’s desire to exploit LDC (Least Developed Countries) labor rates. Either one of two things will happen: 1) We get the manufacturing jobs back, wipe away the debt and flourish or 2) We endure a depression and our wages get reset to that of the LCD’s (2 bucks a day). Again, Mulvaney and the rest of the gang should have chastised Bernanke for condoning discussions about exploiting labor as acceptable and routine.”

        … 67% of the economy is driven by consumers, if you read Jim Quinn’s article, The Shallowest Generation, you’ll see that consumers got their money from credit, that is how the economy thrived. 9 billion borrowed dollars wracked up on HELOC’s and spent at Starbucks on 4 dollar coffees is a case in point…

        This will, without a doubt be another Katrina…”

      58. “The numbers don’t lie…” durango kidd excitedly exclaimed.

        I know that’s a popular phrase among realtwhores and others who want to make a bad move look good and or who are out to rip you off, but it’s simply Not true – numbers Do lie – here are two books about that:

        How Numbers Lie: A Consumer’s Guide to the Fine Art of Numerical Deception

        How Numbers Lie : A Consumer’s Guide to Numerical Hocus Pocus

      59. Bad Education

        “…while college applicants’ faith in the value of higher education has only increased, employers’ has declined. According to Richard Rothstein at The Economic Policy Institute, wages for college-educated workers outside of the inflated finance industry have stagnated or diminished. Unemployment has hit recent graduates especially hard, nearly doubling in the post-2007 recession. The result is that the most indebted generation in history is without the dependable jobs it needs to escape debt.

        …higher education, for-profit or not, has increasingly become a scam.”

      60. An illuminating comment:
        Anonymous said…

        “I am a lawyer and a partner at a prominent law firm. I like what I do, but what I’m seeing now is that it is very difficult to get a job with the big firms out of law school (the firms that pay the big bucks). The main jobs that junior litigation associates (e.g. Discovery) are either being outsourced to places like India or to staff attorneys. On the corporate side, the significant reduction in transactional work has significantly reduced the oportunitities for corporate junior associates. Add these problems to the fact that clients are less willing to pay the costs of training junior associates and all these add up to significantly fewer opportunities with the big firms. Even if the economy improves I don’t see these trends changing all that much over the next few years when you’d be likely to graduate.

        Out of a school like st johns you’d almost certainly have to be in the top 10 percent (maybe top 5) of the class to have any chance at these types of jobs. It could happen, but if it doesn’t you’ll end up with 150k of debt and an average law firm job that pays around 60k.”
        May 18, 2011 9:30 PM

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