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I’m 60 years old. I have seen many historic things happen in my lifetime so far. This one ranks right up there at the top. I’m so angry I’m about sick. I’m so sad I want to cry. How on earth did we ever get to this point? Our elected officials have put themselves front and center for all to see how absolutely corrupt most of them are! There is no room for doubt. The lies about how this crap is going to be financed; the creative number jockeying by the CBO about this crap being fically sound…th elist goes on and on. People should blacken their calendars and REALLY start preparing – the slippery slope just got steeper! What a travesty!!!!!!!!!!!
I am 54 and my wife is 51 we pay $20,000 a year for health insurance. I have asthma and can not switch insurance companies. Grannyb you will be on Medicare(socialism you will like) in four years so quit your whinning. I bet you were all for blowing up Iraq to the tune of $2 trillion taxpayer dollars and now you hate spending money. Where was your anger when Bush was spending trillions bailing out banks?????
Proud to be from Alabama today….
Johnnymustardseed…
I’d like to breakdown your post and answer your statements one by one:
1. To start with, most of the individuals who come to this site were very much against the Bush/Obama stimulus packages. Being a Libertarian, I believe that businesses should be left alone to reap what they sow. While I do feel for those individuals who lost a substantial part of their investments/401k/retirement funds, I must stress that most of these avenues are “risk investments” and are there for subject to the ebb and flow of the economy. Most readers of this site would agree that the only true way for an economy to set itself straight is to let a depression occur. It would have hurt (although it does now anyway) but it would also have been over much quicker. Instead, we are now on a spending spree that is putting us in such a deep hole, I fear we will never escape.
2. As for the Iraq/Afghanistan wars…again, if you were a regular reader of this site, you would understand that most of the writers here are against these conflicts. In fact, I think a good portion of us would like to see the US go back to isolationism.Â
Unfortunately, if your not a bleeding heart liberal, you are automatically grouped in the the ultra right wing. That is the mistake that gets made when you listen to MSM. I wish as a group we could do something to distance ourselves for the GOP, and I’m sure as time progresses we will. Until then, please don’s assume that we just want to watch “rag heads” die….we don’t want anyone to die!
3. The big difference between Medicare and this health bill is that you are not forced onto Medicare. And by the way….not everyone who is on Medicare likes it. Less and less doctors are willing to treat Medicare patients because the government keeps cutting the reimbursement rates on them.
4. Lastly, while I never like hearing about someone in hardship, please explain to me why I should be forced to pay into a system, that I don’t need, to support the well-being of someone else? My wife and I make a comfortable living here in Jersey. However, if my taxes continue to rise (and you better believe they will) MY standard of living will fall. I have worked very hard to get where I am today. And while I can appreciate your current situation, it is not my fault. I should not have another social entitlement program to pay for, that just like SS (which at my age of 30, I will probably NEVER see) will eventually fail. Don’t believe me? Anyone want to tell me what your COL adjustment was this year?
I do not believe that most people were against some kind of reform. I do, however, believe that this push to socialized medicine will be the downfall of this great nation.Â
Let me ask you one more question…If socialized/government run health care is such a wonderful thing, and is working so well for the rest of the industrialized world, then why is it that any one who can afford it comes to the US for treatment? I mean, really….why is it that when Paul McCartney needed a medical procedure done he came here? Sure, he can afford virtually anything he wants, but what he DIDN’T want, was to be treated in a country with sub-par medicine and a six month wait do to the erosion of their system.
My friend, I do feel for your situation. But if you couldn’t afford to buy a house, should I pay more taxes so you can? Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that I should HAVE to by health insurance or face a penalty. I have my own problems….
As a former resident of Louisiana, I was not happy to see the one Republican vote aye from New Orleans- but guess what, a quick check of the congressional record shows this as false- Ahn Cao voted no.Â
I still think that they should all be sent home.Â
johnnymustardseed – whoa! Not sure why you think I’m whining, but you don’t know me, and you’ve presumed and assumed a lot! First, I’m not whining, I’m fighting mad. Second, I’m not in favor of war although every branch of the military is represented in my family. Gratuitous death and spending are not anywhere on my priority lists. (Did I even mention war in my earlier post???)Third, I was mad when Bush decided we had banks/financial institutions “too big to fail” and bailed them out. BS! The only reason AIG got bailed out is because they hold the Congresscritter’s reitrement accounts!!!!! And Bush didn’t want the disaster happening on his watch! So, bail-out and pass on the disaster to the next guy to handle.
I stand by what I said – I don’t believe the government has any right to tell me I HAVE to buy insurance or penalize me because I won’t! And BTW, my husband’s on Medicare – it ain’t all it’s cracked up to be and won’t even be that much, if anything, by the time I’m eligible!
I’m sorry you have health problems, and have sympathy for your issues with insurance coverage ( I worked in the industry and know what a crock it is!). It’s one facet of the reform that certainly is needed. But what they crammed down our throats wasn’t a solution – it’s just the start of a bigger problem. Just wait and see.
Dear sleepingrevolt: thank you!!! I know this is a sensitive time for everyone, and johnny hit a nerve with me. I’ve paid into the system all of my working life and so has my husband. We have struggled, and we have had plenty. But as you said, we should not be obligated to support everyone else who may not be as fortunate as we are. BUT, in fact, we do – just not through the auspices of the government. We believe very strongly in helping our fellow man and do so in a number of ways. Like other writers have noted, having health care in the country is a privilege NOT a right. We just need to find a different/better way for health care to be made available. I don’t claim to have any answers, either. But I KNOW what we got handed to us last night was not the answer!!!
Granny sorry but I am sick of the attitude of the far right, we have serious problems in this country and when something is done to help Americans who need help, some will call that cramming it down your throat. Tell me how bad Medicare is when god forbid something goes terribly wrong. Those that are against health care reform don’t get it. 32% of Americans are on Medicare, we are already “socialists”, congress gets government healthcare. How about they give us what they get? Last year 17% increase in our premiums, this year 18.5% increase. Corporate greed plain and simple.
the sleeping revolt, sorry but the Paul McCartney story means nothing. 50 to 60 million AMERICANS can’t get the health care Paul got……. Get it, they get no health care. Millionares will always go where they want because they can afford it. Until you get a 18.5% premium shoved down your throat don’t pretend to think everything is fine the way it is.
The Paul McCartney issue is purely to state that in countries with socialized medicine, the level of care given drops dramatically. This is just a fact Johny.Â
Again, you do not seem to understand this…most people DO WANT some form of health care reform. You are 100% correct that an 18.5% premium increase is outrageous. However, what this bill is saying is that instead of addressing the reasons these rate increases are taking place, the government will just use some make-believe money, mixed with tax increases and WHOLA! Here is a nice little package that will keep you quite for a while!
First, I would like to know where in this bill does it state that your premiums will not rise? Can’t find it? Of course you can’t….because it’s not there! Premium control in this bill is based on the idea that as long as enough healthy individuals sign up for this package, it will keep costs down. This might be true for a 25 yr old with no pre-existing conditions, but do you think that with your stated situation you will see a real cost savings? You won’t! According to this bill, insurance companies can not exclude individuals based on pre-existing conditions. What they WILL do however, is group you together with other people in your situation in what is known as a “High Risk Pool.” Oh yeah, you’ll be able to change insurance companies my friend….but don’t expect it to be cheap.Â
Another thing you might not understand is that one of the ways this bill got past the CBO was because $200,000,000.00 in Medicare reimbursement payments were not listed! This will now allow Congress to reassess the current payments made to doctors who except Medicare. With this in mind, how many doctors do you think will continue to see Medicare patients? Like it or not, the practice of medicine is a business…not a charity. So, now even though you get the insurance, who knows if you’ll get a doctor to see you. We already have a shortage of medical staff in this country. Once you add and additional 30 million people to that…good luck.
“How about they give us what they get?” Because your not a Congressman! Over the years, people in this country have come to feel that they deserve all the same thing as the people who run this country get! While I think they are very overpaid, and there retirement packages and just ridicules, if I truly wanted those thing…I should have become a Congressman. Certain jobs (public or private) have certain benefits. I have a specific benefits package at my office because I am in management. My employee’s have a different, yet still very good package. If my employee’s want to see more benefits, they have the option to either pay into it, or….here’s a shocking theory…stay committed and move up in the company! Different strokes for different folks.
The Constitution says you have “the right to the PURSUIT of happiness…” Yours….and mine. I have been happy up until this point. I’m sorry if you have not. But why should my happiness be diminished for someone else?
Side note…what is it with you and this right wing thing? It’s not right wing…we just want to be left alone to live our lives!
Comments…..
thesleepingrevolt…… If socialized medicine is so bad why do they live longer in those horrible countries and why not get rid of socialized medicare? If I used your everything for me attitude..Why should I pay for those old people.. they are just going to die anyway?? Or maybe because we used to care about other Americans and want what is best for everyone.
CountryLife
expectancy
Andorra
83.52
Antigua and Barbuda
82.3
Macau
82.27
Japan
82.02
San Marino
81.80
Singapore
81.80
Hong Kong
81.68
Sweden
80.63
Australia
80.62
Switzerland
80.62
France
80.59
Guernsey
80.53
Iceland
80.43
Canada
80.34
Cayman Islands
80.20
Italy
79.94
Gibraltar
79.93
Monaco
79.82
Liechtenstein
79.81
Spain
79.78
Norway
79.67
Israel
79.59
Jersey
79.51
Faroe Islands
79.49
Greece
79.38
Austria
79.21
Virgin Islands
79.20
Malta
79.15
Luxembourg
79.03
Montserrat
79.00
New Zealand
78.96
Germany
78.95
Belgium
78.92
Guam
78.76
Saint Pierre and Miquelon
78.76
European Union
78.70
United Kingdom
78.70
Finland
78.66
Isle of Man
78.64
Jordan
78.55
Puerto Rico
78.54
Bosnia and Herzegovina
78.17
Bermuda
78.13
Saint Helena
78.09
United States
78.00
Yeah, Sleepingrevolt, that “far right” or “right wing” bullshit really gets old. I couldn’t agree more with your 4th point, specifically:
Sleepingrevolt said: “please explain to me why I should be forced to pay into a system, that I don’t need, to support the well-being of someone else?…… I have worked very hard to get where I am today. And while I can appreciate your current situation, it is not my fault. ”
I’m 24 years old and unfortunately (nobody’s fault, but my own) I haven’t been very successful in developing a career or in acquiring a marketable skill. Yet, I hold no one accountable for my current circumstances except myself. My dad is a hard working man(dirt poor army brat with 6 siblings), who wasn’t given a damn thing and never asked for anything either. He learned industrial electrical&instrumentation from the ground up and as a result he makes fairly good money(mainly while working overseas) I’ve watched him pay anywhere from $1000 to $2000 in taxes, social security, etc.. weekly for years.Now if that isn’t theft I don’t know what is. To my dad(and many others) this eventually became too much to put up with.  I’m sure most everyone here knows what I’m talking about.
My dad really hopes I can get career in something that will allow me to work internationally like he does, because our domestic job market doesn’t look very promising: stifling income tax rates on top of rising local taxes, social security, medicare/medicaid, Obamacare, and the list can only grow larger. This redistribution scheme will not improve healthcare and without a doubt it will suck even more wealth from most working Americans, even the so called poor.
If you work outside the US for something like 12 months(not exactly sure), then you are first required to pay taxes locally (to whatever country you are in),but are exempt from paying federal income taxes on the first $82,000 or so. On top of that you don’t have to pay social security, medicare, medicaid, etc… The company you work for is most likely incorporated in a tax have like Camon Islands, and thus doesn’t have to pay SS or any other social taxes. It is a great way to actually accumulate some of YOUR OWN hard earned money. It certainly is a lot closer to freedom than paying out 30% and then some stateside. I know many Americans “get ahead”, but most make enough to pay bills, buy house/car, and not much more. Yeah, many squander their surplus wealth on crap like cigarettes, fast food, and other junk like that. Yet, imagine what you could do with every dollar of social security that you ever paid in along with all the federal income taxes you pay in. You could maybe start a business, or get out from under that damn mortgage(“death-pledge”).You could put your kids or even yourself through school. More people would be able to actually plan their lives on their own terms. Now imagine what I just described applying to every person in your neighborhood, town, or even state. Imagine the prosperity that might be possible. Unfortunately we don’t really control the levers of power and probably never have. Maybe I’m wrong, or am just an idiot. You decide. I know I’m preaching to the choir. For the moment I’m not sure what else to do.
If I’m not mistaken the phrase “The right to life, liberty , and the pursuit of happiness”, originally said, “The right to life, liberty, and the Pursuit of Property”. Just thought I’d mention that considering its relevance to my ramblings.
Comments…..Speaking of ‘reform’ how about tort reform? What is to be done with the sue-happy-ambulance-chasing-scum-sucking lawyers??? Have they contributed in any way to the mess we are in? Â Is it a small wonder that the majority of congressmen are lawyers and that they protect their own??
Johny,
Again, we will go piece by piece here…
1. There is a very good reason the people in those countries live longer, more prosperous lives…THEY LIVE AN ACTIVE LIFESTYLE!!! American’s are some of the fattest, laziest, unhealthy groups of individuals there are. Most would rather eat McDonalds as opposed to cooking chicken and vegetables. They would rather sleep in late as opposed to working around the house. They play Wii Fit and call that exercise. And they would rather watch DVD’s all weekend as opposed to reading a damn book!Â
In contrast, many of the countries you listed are the complete opposite. They walk…everywhere. They work in their gardens. When they eat, they eat small, sensible meals through out the course of the day. Those meals are often cooked at home, from GOOD ingredients that are grown locally as opposed to the garbage we buy from chain stores (which is ALSO regulated by the government.) They don’t chow down on Big Mac’s till they feel like their colon is going to fall out. Many of the Asian countries also eat a diet that is very high in vitamin C (seaweed), along with tea’s that are very rich in antioxidants. You know, the very same things the FDA is currently trying to regulate because they say it doesn’t work as well as the drugs that Big Pharm has!?
On top of that there is another step that many people around the world do that brings great joy to their lives and helps reduce stress…they spend time with family! Instead of putting their kids in front of the TV all day, they actually spend a lot of free time with friends and family relaxing. We should all try that a little more don’t you think?
2. ” If I used your everything for me attitude..Why should I pay for those old people.. they are just going to die anyway??” This is where I really start to enjoy you liberals! You assume (you tend to do that a lot) that because I don’t like paying into entitlement packages that I just want EVERYONE to die. Cut the shit….I’ll bet soup to nuts YOUR not out doing charity work every weekend! Of course, you’ll come back on here and say that you ALWAYS do good deeds, but let’s be honest here…as you stated in your first post, this is about you and the 18.5% increase in your insurance and the fact that you have asthma. It’s amazing how you are so quick to judge. As I stated earlier, I am all for reforming our health care system, but this is not the way.Â
Here’s a story for you…a woman who works for me has all of her medical insurance paid for through work. Her two oldest children are ALSO covered under our plan. Mind you, this is at no cost to her. The last two children that she had are not fully covered. We pay 50% and she must pay the remainder. She too just LOVES this HCR. In her mind, that fact that she has to pony up a little over $400 a month in HC bothers her. Here is the kicker….she has worked at our office for almost 10 years. She has known the policy in our office for just as long. The first two kids were with one boyfriend. Now mind you, she KNEW that after two dependents, she would need to pay. So what does she do? Gets pregnant TWO more times…by a different boyfriend!!! She KNEW she would have to pay for those children to be on our plan….but alas….no condoms!
Now I understand that there are people out there who did not put THEMSELVES in this type of situation. However, lets say half did….I’m supposed to feel compassion for individuals who had no regard for consequences? Sorry bud…not me. I’ll say it again…not my problem. I have my own family to take care of. My wife and I waited until I was almost 30 to have our first kid. We did this because that was when we were able afford it. Planning for your future, and taking responsibility for your own actions is key.  Let old people die? I would prefer not, but if it comes down to my taxes being raised to a point where I can’t afford to take care of MY children….you bet your ass brother!
3. We do still care about Americans. Those of us who are not being blindsided by this socialist utopia understand that THIS bill is NOT what’s best for Americans. What is best for Americans is find a way to keep costs down in the medical field so it is easier to afford. However, there will ALWAYS be exceptions. Let’s say you need a heart transplant. Do you know how much time, effort, and funds it took to develop that technology? Add on top of that the cost this med school student incurred while learning to perform this operation. I’m sorry Johny, certain things will never be free man. Don’t believe me? Find out what happens when you live in Italy, Greece, or the UK….your over 55, and you need this procedure. You will most likely be denied…unless your connected.
Finally, touching on a country you have on your list….Switzerland. This is by far one of they freest, TRUE Democratic Republics the world has ever know. Let’s for a moment forget the fact EVERY citizen is REQUIRED to be armed, or the fact that they have not been involved in a war in almost 300 years. Here’s how medicine works there:
– The people voiced a concern for health care.
– Their elected government drafted a bill that they believed the people would like.
– Once the final bill was completed, a copy was sent to ALL citizens to review it. It clearly spelled out what woud be offered and more importantly, what the cost for this would be.
– Then they had a vote. The result of that vote is their current law!
I don’t know a single person who would be against that…do you? Does anyone else on here? The people of Switzerland made a collective choice to raise their taxes for a specific benefit. Where was our choice? When our own elected officials vote according to what they receive in return, what does that say? While I’m not a liberal, I have always respected Kucinich and Stupak. They USED to stick to a set of principles and vote according to what the citizens in their district wanted. But alas…they too have sold their souls. And for what? Well, it is coming to light now that Stupak sold out for $700K to fix up and airport and a “promise” of an executive order by Obama regarding abortion funding. Interesting….
To summarize…The people on your list live longer because they take personal responsibility for their own health. Imagine that huh? PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN HEALTH! For that matter, why do we not talk about prevention? Prevention is a lot cheaper then Reactive Medicine. It’s a good concept…we should try. But nah….it’s just easier to keep doing what we do, then let Big Brother take care of the mess!
I would have gotten back to you sooner Johny, but I was at the gym…exercising and taking care of myself!
Comments…..Speaking of “Johnny”, did anybody else notice that John Murtha of PA somehow “voted” yes from beyond the grave?Â
So the interactive map would have you believe.Â
Yes, apparently new legislation was in the works back in February to allow dead senators to keep their seats in Congress and vote even when deceased: http://outsidethe-cardboard-box.tumblr.com/post/391496514/senate-considers-rule-modifications-for-extended
TSR.. well said! I tire of these “bleeding heart liberals”… as long as someone else pays… they ‘are all in’! Â I think this somehow eases their conscious when it comes to their stance on abortion as an example. Â My father taught me how to work… at the age of 10 I put in 10 hour days.. hard work on the family farm. Â I was taught that if “you made your bed, you get to lay in it” (you reap what you sow). Â We have allowed the ‘progressives’ in this country to somehow take power and have ‘robbed’ folks of the right to fail. Â We instead have a sort of reward system in place to compensate folks who make poor decisions… these folks grow up to be voting ‘progressives’… hmmmmm… this is all of a sudden making sense.
Comments…..thesleepingrevolt…. I wonder about the choice of name.. How about this… America love it or leave it. So this revolt you are planning, I bet there is utopia on the other side. Our country has always been  majority rules and elections decide who governs. The repubs apparently didn’t do such a good job governing and ran up huge debts and brought the country to it’s knees. Voted out! Tell me what they did on healthcare except 200 different ammendmants to the passed health care bill. I take it from your past posts you work for someone else who would understand what it does to a business when greedy insurance companies raise premiums 18%. You sir are only one serious illness or accident away from bankruptcy or god forbid you get laid off. People like you live in a very nice protected world until something goes wrong… then you will go crying to the “socialist government” …. What about me!!!!!! Wha Wha Wha Â
I give more to charityin one yewar than you could in a lifetime, your me me me attitude isn’t shocking.
You decry the health care bill as socialism but the fact is 100 million people are on medicare and medicaid already. If you hated it so much, where were the Teabagger Marches and threats before. Seem like you guys were really quiet as the Repubs drove us over the cliff with the banksters.
Well, Good Morning to you too Johny! It seems as though we’re getting nasty today huh? Seems as though you have jumped right to the standard name calling as opposed to trying to argue a single point in my post. So here we go….but this time, I’ll be rude too!
The Sleeping Revolt is a band you moron! Once again, not even taking the time to look up the simplest of things. Haha, yes…I’m planning a revolt sir. Because that is what all “Wingnuts” do am I correct? You sound ridiculous.
You are right about the Republicans. They did nothing of value during this entire process. If you were to have read a damn word I’ve written, you would know that I am not a Republican…nor did I vote for them. It is very apparent that you’re to busy burying your head up your own ass to understand that not everyone is a Republican or Democrat.Â
However, if this was a good bill, why did so many Dems have to be bought to cast a “yes” vote? I asked that earlier, but you haven’t answered. In fact, you have not answered a single question that has been posed to you yet. So let’s ask them again…
Why do you feel that THIS HCR bill is a good idea for the US?
Why do you feel the Fed’s have a right to tell ME what I MUST buy?
Why do you feel”Socialized Medicine” is the correct route to go in this country? You have already copy and pasted a cute little list of countries with a better life expectancy then that of the US, but you have yet to answer whether you believe that the way they actually LIVE their lives has anything to do with it.
I would like you to explain HOW you feel about the fact that $200 MILLION was left off of the CBO proposal to make sure it went through? That $200 MILLION dollars is the amount that is normally used to pay the doctors for the treatment of Medicare patients. I know, I know…your Goddess Ms. Pelosi told you not to worry about it. So, you don’t. Ignorance is bliss isn’t it?
Now I’ll fill you in on a little secret….the Tea Party Movement (which I am not a part of) is generally credited with being started by Ron Paul supporters. It is a fairly new movement that WASN’T AROUND a few years back. On top of that, what was once a purely Libertarian movement has been taken over by the GOP in recent months. The ORIGINAL Tea Party movement DID protest the Repubs. It’s called reading…give it a shot ace.
“I take it from your past posts you work for someone else who would understand what it does to a business when greedy insurance companies raise premiums 18%.”
Yes, I work for a very intelligent individual who understand exactly what happens when insurance premiums are raised. We have dealt with it before, and we will deal with it again I’m sure. Yet, through negotiation, we have always managed to keep our rates reasonable. We have also managed to keep ALL of our employee’s covered. That includes one breast cancer survivor, a gentleman who had hip replacement, and a guy who had a nervous break-down.Â
Now let me ask you AGAIN…do you really think rates aren’t going to rise under this bill? Do you really think that just because an insurance company has to cover you, that they will not charge appropriately? Where does it say ANY of that in this bill? Please do not dodge the question! I have been answering you statements…now please answer mine.
Can’t find the answers yet can you? Do you want to know why sweetie? BECAUSE IT’S NOT IN THERE! You have been duped sir!!! You have been told how wonderful this bill is without you even knowing what to expect in it. You just heard “Health Care For All” and you almost shit yourself twice! Even Pelosi siad…
“There are many wonderful things in this bill that both you and I will see when its passed.”
Pelosi doesn’t even truly know whats in there. They just want to go down in history as the ones who passed HCR. That is it…and that is all!
Finally, please explain how the US (Which is almost BANKRUPT) is going to pay for this? You have already proven that you have no real idea what is in this HCR bill, but obviously you will blindly believe what you are told by your Democrat gods. That being the case, I’m guessing you believe that this bill will LOWER our debt right? So, if the numbers that the CBO confirmed over the weekend are correct, why would BILLIONS of dollars worth of provisions still need to be added? You did know that’s what they are doing right? They are still adding amendments to this bill that were not included in the CBO approved bill. No sir, this bill will be paid for by China, more of my money, and a reduction of available care!!
Oh yeah, one more thing…You claim that I am one injury away from bankruptcy…not even close man. I have lived a life within my means, bought a house that I could actually afford, and get this one…TAKEN RESPONSIBILITY FOR MYSELF. While I do indeed have insurance, I understand that things could change. If/when they do, that’s my problem…not yours. A “protected world”? Nice try man, but sorry. I’ve seen my share of issues just like the next guy. I just realize it’s up to ME to solve my problems. I don’t WANT government help…I don’t need it.
” then you will go crying to the “socialist government†…. What about me!!!!!! Wha Wha Wha “
I actually pretty sure YOU were the one who said:
“we are already “socialistsâ€, congress gets government healthcare. How about they give us what they get? “
That sounds a lot closer to “what about me” then anything I’ve said now doesn’t it?
Quite crying like a girl and act like a man for Christ sake!Â
Didn’t I say he’d pull the “I give more to charity then you” thing?! Told ya’s so….
Lively debate here. Although I am not unsympathetic to Johnny’s situation, I tend to agree with Sleeper. Just so nobody calls me a right-wing fascist OR a bleeding heart, let me preface my remarks by saying that I am politically independent – I think the Dems and Reps are two sides of the same tarnished coin. I also work in healthcare, so I know whereof I speak.
Johnny, what you fail to mention is the role of genetics and lifestyle in those countries with longer lifespans than the US. Nor do you mention the largest contirbutors to morbidity and mortality in each country. I won’t address genetics or other contributors, but the latter factor, lifestyle, is a lynchpin in this debate. The top US diseases that result in higher mortality, mobidity and shorter lifespans, are largely the result of Americans’ unhealthy lifestyle. The reason I agree with Sleeper is that most Americans think they can treat their bodies like amusement parks for 50 years, and then, when they develop the inevitable degenerative diseases, many Americans not only expect a magic bullet to cure those preventable ills, but they also expect it for free. Mind you, I’m only talking about lifestyle-driven diseases (cardiovascular disease, COPD, diabetes and cancer, to some extent) that account for the VAST majority US disease-related morbidity and mortality, and the VAST majority of healthcare costs.Â
What I object to is the lack of accountability on the part of the American consumer and the lack of incentive to change.  This is what’s glaringly missing from what’s being called “heathcare reform.” Healthcare isn’t being reformed, merely how it’s paid for and by whom. Should insurance companies, hospitals, providers and every other stakeholder in the healthcare field be held accountable? You bet your ASS!  (And don’t even get me started on holding politicians accountable.) However, unless Americans are incentivized to take responsibility for their health, they will continue to develop the degenerative diseases and further increase the financial healthcare burden.
JMS: I think the problem is that most Americans (over 70%) didn’t want this law in this way. Americans have compassion for the poor, and I doubt whether any other country in the world does more for the poor, disposessed, uneducated, and sick; all over the world. Most of US wanted health care and insurance reform. We just didn’t want this particular law, and we didn’t want it rammed down our throats against our will.
The democrats will pay a hefty price for this in November and if they continue to defy the wishes of the vast majority of Americans on say, ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, for example; they will have committed political suicide for the next forty years.
Obama lied to US. We will reverse very lie he passes through a corrupt Congress. We will sweep the democrats from office, and never again in my lifetime will a democrat sit in the White House.
Obama care is an abortion.
Johny,
Now we are having a logical conversation! Yes, it is an antagonistic name…for any site, let alone this one. Just want to get that out of the way first.
Johny, I think there is some kind of misunderstanding my friend. I believe I stated in my first or second post that I do feel as though some form of HCR should be dealt with. It is the manner in which THIS one was brought about. My two main issues with this bill are:
1. It mandates that I must comply, or pay a fine. I don’t believe that is the correct road to take. This has done exactly what these politicians wanted….drove a stake between the American people. The way in which this bill passed was a spectacular execution of Sun Tzu’s concept of “Divide and Conquer.” Now, as opposed to really looking into the details of this bill, most of the population is arguing with each other about it’s merit.
2. I firmly believe that an issue such as this could have been handled more appropriately at the State level. Throughout our argument these past few days, neither one of us has touched on MassCare. The fact is, I have no problem with Massachusetts HC package at all! I think that if a State decides that it will have a mandated health package for it’s citizens, and those citizens VOTED TO HAVE IT…then more power to them. The advantage to having HC only on the state level is that if I don’t like…I can leave! If you want it, you can go there! We are not forced to participate in it. With HCR at the Federal level, everyone must participate. However, a word of caution….MassCare was used as a blueprint for this Federal Bill.  According to the Massachusetts Treasury, they are having a very hard time maintaining this program. Individuals who have been without HC started going to the Dr. for every little bump, scrape, and bruise. Those reimbursements have added up…and the bill is more then the state can handle. They have started borrowing from the Fed. Now, if the Fed runs into the same issue, who will they borrow from? China or my savings account?
I’m not sure why you insist that I have no compassion for others. I have repeatedly said that I would like to see a GOOD HCR bill brought up. A bill that helps curb unnecessary insurance practices, fales malpractice claims, encourages TRUE competition, address the cost of educating our doctors, and allows citizens to make their own choices based on what works best for them.
I can truly appreciate your point you made about your mother. However, we ALL go through some form of misfortune. Where does it all end? First, we had to bail out companies that made horrible business decisions. Next, we needed to save all those people who should NEVER have owned a home, but made the choice to go through with an ARM loan just so they could beat the “Jones’.” A few months later, those same people needed help because their credit cards were to expensive. Now, I’m being told that I have to help everyone to gain medical coverage? It just never seems to end man! But you must understand…this is what they want! The upper echelon of government WANTS you to depend on them. They WANT you to need their assistance. It keeps them in a position of power over you…and it keeps YOU below them!
What i think would have been a MUCH better option is a TRUE government insurance (NOT a free, single pay option however) that an individual could PAY into IF THEY SO CHOOSE.  Allow citizens to sign up on their tax forms for the year. That person would then have a small amount taken from THEIR checks every pay cycle. Imagine how inexpensive those rates would be if the claimed 30 million uninsured went on that plan! You get what you want…I get what I want. Again though, a word of caution….if you haven’t noticed, everything this government touches seems to fall apart. Social Security…in shambles! I will NEVER see a dime of that money and we all know it. Welfare/WIC/Food Stamps…there are SO MANY loopholes in these entitlement packages, that as opposed to the individuals who TRULY need them getting appropriate packages, others have learned how to scam the system. Our Federal Government was never meant to handle things like this. It was meant to defend us from invasion and deal with Foreign Affairs.
As for what tax will be imposed…our FICA rates will most certainly increase. They have been locked at 7.65% since 2004, but let’s see how that holds up. And I never said it would break me, I simply said that if/when it impedes my ability to provide for MY family on the level that I have worked to afford…that’s where my issue comes into play.
To answer you statement regarding the 100 million currently using Medicare; Of course people us it. They have paid for it, and after almost 45 yrs of it, the population has come to expect it. But here is the big difference between the two…if I don’t want to use it, I’m not forced to. Never in the history of the Federal Government has such a large scale mandate been pushed up the people. The problem I see is that this is one more step towards the populations full dependence on Big Brother. I believe that State Law is the rule of the land. Local Law is meant to protect the rights on it’s citizens. And Individual rights shall not be infringed upon. This bill infringes on my rights to my own body….let alone my wallet.
Lastly, I am amazed at the levels some people will go to. While I am a firm believer in the First Amendment, I can only say that these people are only doing harm to their own cause. However, there is a fringe element to EVERY organization. I mean hell, even PETA will kill scientists to free a rabbit! You can not judge an organization based on the misdeeds of a few. Look what the peace loving hippies did to vets coming home from Vietnam. What fanatical Christian groups do to those they claim are evil. What Islamic fanatics do to their own people. For that matter, I believe the Democrat backed unions were beating the crap out of protester at town hall meetings last fall….and they were FOR this HCR! And yet, liberals railed those same protesters when they started carrying firearms to these protests for protection. However, this fringe element is most certainly willing to resort to violence to accomplish their goals. So are some unions though!
Again, Beck and Hannity just recently got behind the Tea Party movement. However, in today’s world of either ultra-liberal or ultra-conservative (no in betweens), you must watch a little of both to get the full truth. Both of those guys address the fear and anger a certain portion of this country is feeling. Whether you agree with this or disagree, you shouldn’t ignore it. The best way to get along with one another is to understand how the other side feels. Unfortunately my friend, I fear that this is the beginning an American Revolt that can not be stopped. Remember, The Stamp Act took place 10 years before the start of the first American Revolution! I think there are just to many ideological differences between us that can not be worked out anymore. For as much hate, anger, and hostility as the HC debate has brough to light…just wait until immigration, education, Fed Reserve, and the 2nd Amendment start being talked about!
Best of luck to you man….
Comments…..thesleepingrevolt…. I hope you are wrong about the coming revolution..but , sadly I agree it is on the horizon. The Tea Party got it’s wings because Obama won. Not one person on the right stood up to Bush spending Trillions and no one  threatened anyone by showing up to protest with a gun. Imagine what whould have happened to someone had they showed up at a Bush rally with a gun. They would have disappered.
I run a business of 40 people and in the last two years our health care insurance has gone up 35.5%. If the right cares about jobs then understand that shit kills jobs. Today at this very moment I have to decide how to come up with an additional $60,000 to pay my employees insurance. It means maybe cancelling it all together. Republicans put 200 provisions into the bill and then voted against it, they don’t want Obama to suceed no matter what he does. They are against the Jobs bill, they refuse to allow him to appoint the Head of TSA . They want him to fail at the countries peril. Stupid my friend, because fail we will and you better have a plan and a way out of the country if that happens. They just don’t care. The insurance lobby controls the debate and that is wrong. I understand your feeling about cramming this down your throat. Understand my side of a $60,000 jam down too.
Johny,
The Tea Party became national because Obama won. You are absolutely correct about that. However, they were protesting Bush’s spending! They have stood up against two wars, The Patriot Act, and Illegal Wiretapping among other things. The only problem was at that time, the media didn’t care and didn’t report in it. Now, the media…both right and left see’s the dollar signs involved with reporting on these issues.
I will also add that those individuals who showed up to these rallies armed did so within their legal rights. In their state, they were legally issues carry permits. And again, they started doing so after numerous altercations with union members. Now, if you were trying to protest, but getting assaulted when you went, wouldn’t you look for a way to defend yourself? They did…and they did it legally. And although you might feel uncomfortable around firearms, a lot of people are not.  I see a gun as nothing more then a tool, plan and simple.
I fully, 100% feel your pain regarding your company! I am the COO of my company and deal with that every year. I know that it has the potential to kill jobs and force us to make decisions that will directly effect an employee’s future. I just do not see how this bill will truly help that. For both your company and mine, operating with less then the cut off line of 50 employees outlined in this bill, we will not be effected. However, a company that has over 50 employees will have a fee associated with their insurance policy moving forward to help subsidize this bill. So, for some, this too will hinder growth. It’s a loss-loss man.
As for the Jobs bill, I can’t see that making any real difference. As a business owner, would you hire an skilled individual (say right out of college) for $30k + benefits for a $5k tax credit? Where is the sense in that? You can only hire someone when that individual is needed. If demand is not there, then what difference does a tax credit make? All this will do is help out the politicians friends who’s businesses were not effected by the depression. If their business is still doing well, and they hire another worker to increase production….they get $5k. That won’t help us small business people.
At this point, anything we can do to slow down the TSA is a good thing. They want to install full body scanners at all air ports through out the nation. How do you feel about some 20something year old seeing a detailed picture of you naked wife? Maybe your 13 year old daughter? Go online and look up the kinds of picture these things produce. The TSA is just another example of a federal agency that is completely inept at the ONE job it has to do. Now they want to expand their power? No thanks Johny. I can understand that some people may feel a false sense of security knowing there is a national agency there to protect them during their travels…but last I check, the DEA was supposed to protect us from illegal drug importation. Anyone know how that’s going?
I think we can both agree that things in this country are truly FUBAR at this point Johny. We all want to fix this mess, we just have major disagreements on what we think will do it. Unfortunately, I think that short of unseating every congressman, senator, president, czar, and lobbyist and starting over….we’re pretty much screwed.
In reading the above postings, there’s common threads, stress being one them. But…by not calming, easing yourself, not only will stress shorten your life, you’re going to find yourself in a healthcare system! Maybe that’s your choice, but not mine.
Healthcare, like so many other looming problems in the country, has been building, festering, waiting. But like most matters here, the politics keep anything from changing. Our process, our government, our system of free market, has been corrupted by no checks, no balances, and no responsibility towards the betterment of the country itself. Â Instead, the betterment has been aimed totally at just one aspect of the free market system: Â profit. This has helped to enable our healthcare to become the monster it is, run more by lawyers than healthcare professionals.
On a good day, you’d better hope that if you’re entering the hospital for a serious matter, that “providing health” was on the main menu that day. If however, instead, the business office denied you the testing or the care that you needed, because the insurance company does not pay for such treatments, then you’re health just became more serious than when you were wheeled-in! Welcome to New America.
Costs are steering this country. Our liberties have been bought. This isn’t debatable, but what is…is who caused this? Blue blames red, red blames blue! As we’re arguing amongst ourselves, we’ve lost sight of the broad  view. We’ve also fueled the fire that burns us. We’ve been losing our right to choose in lieu of someone choosing for us. We’ve been losing our liberties. Most interestingly however, China has been gaining more [liberties!]
It’s not idealistic to step back. It’s not going to hurt you. Be objective and realize that subjective blaming and banter will gain nothing. The bigger picture is available for anyone who wants to see it. We are being divided. It’s working. We now have two colors, two teams. The reds and the blues. The democrats and the republicans. Either/or, all or nothing, etc. This provides how divided we are.
Regardless of your politics, we are really one. We are the middle class. Grasp this, get it! Â If you’ll consider this fact, consider the strength in it, then consider this. We’ve allowed those who govern to divide us. Divided…we will fail, not fall. The division benefits not us, but them, those in government that keep us in an “all or nothing” way of finding solutions and relying on them. It’s the “red or blue view”, with nothing in between! All or nothing is fulfilling it’s own agenda, which is easing more towards…we’re nothing.
US corporations established a labor force here in the US. American workers built these corporations…they didn’t build themselves! We helped make the brands that made the profits. As cost of operations went up, so did a search for cheaper labor. China opened it’s doors. US corporations went for it…but also something cleverly not made open to the American people. US corporations realized [through their own pull-out] that the US middle class would dry-up, meaning: no profits here. Without a middle class, US corporations knew that in order to maintain the Wall Street objective, they had to BE IN CHINA! Â This then shifts the paradigm from being “labor” seeking to something much more significant, more damaging to the US. The free market which was enjoyed, benefitted, and grew these companies, is now leaving us high & dry. The middle class in China is where growth is, not the US. We are in serious doo-doo!
US corporations are not democracies. Odd is it not? It took our democracy to foster and build some major dictatorships? Â No one votes in US corporations [unless you’re a “major” stockholder.] Your told what to do…or if you don’t agree, you’re out. You leave the runway! So it is that without responsibility to anyone but themselves [and perhaps their major stockholders,] US corporations have rearranged the free market system to rid of all risk. Responsibility is risk, if it limits the growth of the…”corporation”. So get rid of it!
Instead of advancing ourselves as the middle class, a huge majority, we allow the division and the sinking of ourselves. We cannot all agree, but we can agree we’re all suffering. Our jobs were sold, our free market system didn’t adjust when corporations were permitted advantages that just benefitted themselves without regard to those who labored to help build them or the many benefits our country provided for them.
What killed our economy was the shifting away from manufacturing of materials [our jobs] into an investor-driven system, where companies found bigger profits to be made by not making things. Profits tipped the scale as being THE ONLY matter worth considering. This tipped the economy with it. Wall Street drove this bus! They’re still driving it…off a cliff! Our congress, the law making body, took the oath to up hold the rights and security of the people. They broke the oath the day the first time a lobbyist convinced a congressman to shift his vote towards what a corporation in [his state] needed…over that which the citizens deserved. Giving power over to lobbying eventually made corporations worth listening to. Campaign contributions rolled-in. Jobs were opened as the corporation hired. Good stuff! But the other side of that coin bears a look. The corporation was given a preferred treatment…and this treatment grew like a weed!
The fact that the middle class is being eroded is not due to being red or blue. The people who placed the middle class in this crisis, wasn’t the other blogger who sees only his or her color. It has been caused by many years of neglect, Wall Street’s self interest, and most significant to all this, a corrupted congress which was bought and paid for by the fact that they need huge amounts of money in order to remain in office (i.e. campaign money.) These congress people have convinced themselves that in order to maintain a status quo, seek jobs for constituents-by listening to lobbyists. Jobs will come, campaign money will follow, everyone gets something.
The stress, the anger, and the overwhelming depression in the middle class, is massive. Everything that is failing has a reason. Our governing body (both sides) have been bought. US corporations were given benefits, but worse, power. The growth of these companies gained them further “global” power…and something else. Our congress lost any ability to manage them…because they got behind commerce laws that were passed which were short-sighted. These laws benefitted corporations and literally effected one aspect of the trade problems we have today. The other was taxes, also overseen by congress. But if congress is in charge, it’s because Wall Street allows them their misperception that they are. In short, this corrupted the checks & balances, but they called in “the global economy”. Nice soft words, but it has all but destroyed our middle class.
Without an economy, there will be no jobs. Globalization, then, is good for whom? Stop and examine this. Globalization benefitted only a few, but at the expense of many. Our congress is irresponsible and tangled-up in their own political process. The American people must begin to realize that the middle class is not a color…but the longer “We The People” Â cannot grasp this, we’re sealing our own doom.
Our focus should be entirely on the government that needs to be rebuilt…and as long as it remains either-or, all or nothing, we will remain frozen where we are and bitter. This crisis took many years, many administrations, self-interest, and career politicians, to become the perfect storm that it is. This didn’t come about through they were right, they were wrong! They were ALL [all of them] WRONG. They want you to continue to accept the red & blue philosophy. This benefits their cause, not ours, the dwindling middle class. We have an incredible power, but being divided prevents us from saving ourselves. We need to apply…or we fail.
Why the debate heats-up over red & blue politics, healthcare, lack of jobs, corrupt corporations, bailouts, it takes our focus off of what is really occurring. This is serious. Be objective, step back, look at the bigger picture. Our system, our very young democracy, has become tainted. Our liberties are not being removed by healthcare, their being taken by a pirated economy. US Corporations will pull out of this country as soon as they are able. It’s already begun.
Our free market system has spun out of balance, thanks to just a few. Bernie Madoff, a former NADAQ president, is the poster boy for how our system has eroded to the point where AIG, ENRON, FANNIE MAE, etc., happened! They aren’t the failures, they are the symptoms of failure! The huge cracks in the veneer of our so-called free market have come about because it became corrupted. Responsibility becomes secondary to profit. There’s nothing whatsoever wrong with profit, but if irresponsibility comes with gain, the game rules deserve to be examined. Simply put, there are no rules when it comes to Wall Street greed. Profit has turned it’s head and bitten us badly.
Those that took oaths to protect and uphold the rights of “WE THE PEOPLE”, have broken this oath…and as one result, our middle class has been sold to a corrupted free market.
The suffering this country is feeling today is due entirely to what was ignored well over several decades ago. Those who have been directly and indirectly responsible for the commerce and trade laws [and implementation of taxes] that permitted a “globalization economy” without regard for the impact on the US middle class, are the very people who benefitted most from it. Profit requires responsibility. Healthcare matters little to a country that cannot afford anything!
Allow this last comment. A prime example of what was just written. It concerns virtually everything written in this post. A real catch-22!
Living in the Northeast, we have a a major drug company located here. The behavior of this US company is a prime example of failure of massive proportions. The narcissism! It represents globalization under the free market system that owes nothing to the nation that helped it become what it is. This company shall remain nameless, but most will recall how residents were moved off of their own land under eminent domain. This company was pulling the strings behind this.
This drug company is pulling-out. They’re view: The US middle class is done! They’ve already shut down a major 700,000sqft. facility, built with false promises made to local  and state governments. Under the free market system, it’s their prerogative! They are ridding themselves of many well paid workers who moved here, causing further hardship on an already stressed economy and Real estate. This is a mini-model of what is coming from other large corporations, as many are following this drug company’s path. The bigger pullout is not just going to be more serious, it’s a model of how manipulation works under a system without checks and balances. Too big to fail?
This company is literally “dumping” the US market, the US economy, the US people. Their sights are on China and being there to take advantage of the growing middle class. But as you sink into depression, this company will be glad to have your doctor prescribe for you their product: PROZAC.
Milk it, kill it, next cow! To be in a position to “profit” from the Chinese middle class, they have to be there, in China. The ramifications of this pull-out are not on the radar for the companies who will leave. They’re not democracies. Workers do not have a vote. In Chine, workers have no vote either.
The biggest irony: China is a communist-capitalist state. It’s a hybrid of two extremes and the US hooked it’s wagon to it. This has been akin to making a deal with the devil, but when profits are to made, who cares? Where it is hotly debated here in the US [that] government involvement and reg’s equal socialism, US corporations chuckle and run! Â They’re doing all their business within a socialist state [for profit.] Is this Machiavellian or Shakespeare?
When US corporations are permitted to apply all the benefits available to them, including federal and state tax breaks, land, protection, labor, education, etc., etc., then realize the profits they sought, this is good. It builds an economy, local, national, global. But the US business model shifted…and with this, our laws did too. US companies stopped making things…and shifted the model. Not being democracies, companies seemingly get to do what they choose, unless limits are in place. Washington benefitted, Wall Street benefitted, by eliminating any restrictions. All limits were removed, except those which were violations to our national security. But what about security for our economy? What good is ignoring rogue states in the mideast if our problem is coming from within?
We made things. When we did, we had an economy, now we don’t make things. Blame will be placed on unions, taxes, labor costs, healthcare benefits, etc. But not one shred of responsibility will be uttered by US businesses. Did Exxon-Mobil contribute a dime to the US auto industry (where a huge chunk of that 400″billion” dollar profit came from?) Nope.
We helped to build these corporations. But we were used and now discarded. Our free trade system was bought, the middle class was sold. Narcissism is traded on the S&P. Hello China, goodbye US!
The misreported 10% unemployment rate is an example of, “give them cake!” This percentage is used to keep things cooler for us in the ranks. The unemployment numbers are based on those who either began working for someone or stopped working for someone. It does not include contractors, the self-employed, under-employed, part time, or under the table. So why offer-up the inaccurate 10%? The answer is obvious. The truth will not benefit them. Who benefits by burping-up false numbers? The “fed” (remember November,) and Wall Street (investors need good news.) And lastly…we can’t provide more fear for the middle class. FEAR is exactly what is needed to wake-up a lulled population! Recently, hidden in the end of a news report, the real numbers were given. When all factors are used the US unemployment rate is 25-26% unemployment. The number is almost three times the reported number! This equates to one fact: DEPRESSION! We are in fact, in a DEPRESSION. When we cease seeking the truth, we will get lies.
Without a middle class, the two ends will clash. Count on it…unless we initiate ourselves and cease the infighting. We need new rules. Get rid of the enablers in DC, but first identify what this means. It’s a “PURPLE PROBLEM”. Mix RED with BLUE you get “PURLPE”. Step back. Get a grip! The problem isn’t liberals nor conservatives. It’s both! We have been put into an extremist view, which means division. Simply put, being divided has destroyed many countries, so precedent has been set.
The more you debate and argue whose responsible for all this, you benefit those who put us here! Healthcare matters little, if you’re looking at $50 for a loaf of bread! This may become a reality. Global history has provided this scenario. If you don’t think it can happen here, then stay in denial. While you’re blaming, cursing, and faulting, you lose. Place the energy and anger where it will do some good. Clean Washington of career politicians and insist on NEW RULES. There’s no guarantee that if you vote…it will change things. There is a guarantee however, if you don’t, nothing will change.
An ending comment:
Last year, while in France, I asked a few people why things seem to work so well in that country? I was told: “We are not perfect, our system isn’t perfect, but our government knows one thing. They are afraid of us…the people!”
Think about that! Then look at ourselves. Our system was permitted to flip-flop. We let it become what it is. Keep bantering healthcare…and you’ll accomplish nothing. Step back. Calm down. Get active.
New rules:
a) Vote career politicians out.
b) Demand new campaign regulations. Level the field:
1-Here’s what you can spend…and no more.
2-Here’s a campaign calender, you have from now-till-then and it’s
done.
c) Term limits. You’re in for X-terms, like a president, then out.
d) Referendum [WE THE PEOPLE…vote whether you in congress get
a raise, not yourselves. Â [We] decide what healthcare plan you get,
not you. [We] decide how the pension plan works for you, not
yourselves. YOU WORK FOR US!
e) Recall [WTP…can fire you, not your buddies!]
Our problem is PURPLE and…ourselves. We have the power to change…us.