13 Dead After Mass Shooting At Southern California Bar

by | Nov 8, 2018 | Headline News | 132 comments

Do you LOVE America?


    This report was originally published by Tyler Durden at Zero Hedge

    At least 13 people, including a sheriff’s deputy and the suspected shooter, have been killed, while multiple others were injured during a shooting at the country western dance hall Borderline Bar & Grill in Thousand Oaks, Calif. The bar was holding a “College Country” night event when the shooter reportedly stormed the entrance, per NBC News.

    Media reports claimed hundreds of people were inside the venue at the time of the shooting, which began at around 11:30 pm local time.


    Thousand Oaks is situated in Ventura County about 40 miles northwest of Los Angeles.

    One witness interviewed by local TV station ABC7 said that the shooting started when the gunman approached the entrance to the bar, located at 99 Rolling Oaks Drive, and shot a security guard and cashier. He then lobbed a smoke bomb inside the building as he continued to fire into the crowd.

    According to a local CBS affiliate station, witnesses described the suspected gunman as a man who was wearing a trench coat and had a scarf on his face, or possibly a beard. Another described him as being dressed in “all black.”

    One survivor described how he threw a stool through a window and escaped during a lull in the shooting.

    “We heard shots, I looked up and knew exactly what was happening. I tried to pull down as many people as I could,” he said. “As soon as we heard a break in the shooting we knew he was reloading and we threw a couple of bar stools through the closest to us so we could get out.”

    He said the shooter entered and turned to the door counter and coat check area before eventually working his way to the bar.

    “He didn’t say anything, at least not that we could hear,” Estron added. “Everyone was just trying to get out.”

    The shooter, who has been identified as a male, was reportedly shot and killed by police inside the bar; no other details about him have been released.




    Witnesses described hearing numerous loud gunshots ring out inside the club, which sent patrons scrambling for cover. Many got down on the floor.

    “I just started hearing these big pops,” said the witness, a man who was not identified. “The gunman was throwing smoke grenades.”

    Then, panic ensued as people tried to flee.

    “He just kept firing,” the witness said, adding that “people were trying to get out the window” to run away from the gunman, who was wearing a hat and a black jacket and had “a big handgun.”

    The shooting unfolded as patrons were in the middle of dancing, hanging out and having a good time.

    “There were people in the middle dancing and just hanging out and having a good time and you hear that and you just know something’s up,” Erika Sigman said. “In this community, it’s very hard for me to comprehend it because I’ve been here all my life and to think that – I’ve never experienced it, I’ve just never experienced it.”

    One couple told the CBS that their daughter had been wounded during the incident.

    “She was probably on the [dance] floor when this was going on, because she comes here every Wednesday night,” the victim’s father said. “Things are a little sketchy – we don’t have a lot of information right now.”

    Another witness who had been hanging out on the bar’s patio said another patron saved her.

    “A guy who I don’t even know who had seen me there was like, ‘Get down.’ He threw me under one of the tables and then you couldn’t see anything because I guess there was smoke. And then one of the guys who was there started throwing tables out the window and they picked us up and they threw me and my girlfriend out the window. They carried us and then I reunited with my friends, and I was lucky to get out. I was only there for a good 10 minutes but I just – there’s like no words. Those are my people and it’s just not fair, it’s not fair,” she said.

    Videos published to social media showed young people dressed for a fun night out crying and hugging one another outside the bar.

    One woman shared her horror during an interview with the press and described how she heard the gunshots and saw the shooter throwing smoke bombs.

    One young bar patron who spoke with the Washington Post said she heard four loud bangs then ducked for cover. She fled the bar after spotting an accessible exit.

    Rochelle Hammons, 24, told The Post that she heard four shots before she was able to flee.

    “All of a sudden we heard four shots, you know, ‘bang, bang, bang, bang.’ Everyone got down on the floor. Everyone ducked and covered each other,” she said. “As everyone crouched down on the floor, I figured that my only chance would be to run out to the nearest exit. I saw the nearest exit, and I ran out as fast as I could.”

    From inside her car, she saw the first police officer arrive, she said. She rolled down her window and told him there was an active shooter inside.

    “You gotta hurry, you gotta get in there,” she urged him.

    During an early morning press conference, Ventura County Sheriff Geoff Dean described how police responded to the shooting after receiving multiple calls, and how California Highway Patrol officer Ron Helus, a 29-year-veteran looking to retire soon, confronted the shooter inside the bar before being shot, per NBC.

    “He went in to save lives,” Dean said, his voice cracking. “He went in to save other people.”

    A bomb squad was combing through the scene after some reported smoke bombs going off during the gunfire.

    Mitchel Hunter, 19, from Simi Valley, said he saw the gunman. He described him as having light skin with black hair. He said he had a short-barreled semi automatic pistol with a big magazine.

    He said he emptied the magazine and reloaded.

    “I saw him walk in,” Hunter said. “And he started shooting.”

    Hunter said his friend, Tim Munson, 19, also from Simi Valley, was hospitalized.

    Was there a link to terrorism? At this point, “we have no idea.”

    “We have no idea if there is a terrorism link or not,” Ventura County Sheriff Geoff Dean told reporters outside the Borderline Bar and Grill in Thousand Oaks, Calif.

    Local police from Thousand Oaks and the surrounding towns have responded to the incident, as have multiple federal agencies, including the FBI.


    It Took 22 Years to Get to This Point

    Gold has been the right asset with which to save your funds in this millennium that began 23 years ago.

    Free Exclusive Report
    The inevitable Breakout – The two w’s

      Related Articles


      Join the conversation!

      It’s 100% free and your personal information will never be sold or shared online.


      1. Terrorism or just someone letting off some anger against either the bar or society in general?

        In any event, California needs to do something about their lunatics loose on the streets, at least do something to keep the guns and extended magazines out of their hands that are making them go on killing rampages at bars when they predictably go over the edge.

        • “at least do something to keep the guns and extended magazines out of their hands ”

          Register them? Have a police division tracing them? Confiscating them? Why no tally on the “assault car” of 350+ HP? How many people above the driver do they kill in any given year?

          GTFOOH the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

          • A good guy with a gun didn’t stop this bad guy.

            Unless you consider him a good guy since he killed himself with a gun.

            • Friggin gun free zone bozo. That’s why there shouldn’t be any gun free killing zones for crazy people.

              • It seems obvious to me that the area was not free of guns.

                • Nothing seems obvious to progs. The only one with a gun was the murderer! And when the police arrived minutes later, they could not bring him down. CA has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the US, owning a magazine with >10 rds is a FELONY. Concealed carry without a CCW is illegal too. Ammo purchases in CA will require a DOJ permit and extensive records on all purchases. But, hey, anonymous NPCs don’t need facts when they have FEEEEELINGS!

                  • California has the most restrictive gun laws in the nation.

                    No hi capacity mags,
                    no ar15s
                    no detachable mags
                    cant buy more than 50 rounds a month

                    How can this happen?

                    Oh, that’s right. Gun control laws dont stop shit.

                    • Another White man snaps.

                      So many of our people have become cowards, only able to lash out at people who have done nothing to them.

                    • Clyde Lewis talked about various “Matrix Glitch” details about what happened on his show.

                      The event happened on 11-07. In Revelation 11:7 (King James Version) “And when they shall have finished their testimony, the BEAST that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.”

                      The number of the Antichrist/Lucifer is associated with the number 13. There were 13 deaths. Right after the event the town of Paradise was burned down, “PARADISE LOST”.

                      We are on the borderline to the NWO, hence the bar’s name is “Borderline”.

                      The theory here is that Lucifer set everything up in “Hotel California”, the shootings, the fire. The shooter has been involved in the occult is why he was so able to be used by Lucifer.

                • NO DUH!!!

                  Yo momma is so proud, that her Lil’ snowflake was able to get past kindergarten.

                  Then those mean ol’ people in the first grade, made life so difficult for ya.

                  They actually want ya to take the pencil out of your ear, and start paying attention.

                  How much lead paint have you chewed off the window sill in your bedroom?

                  It was not a gun free zone, because….

                  Wait for it…

                  Because they are Criminals, and will never follow/obey ANY law!!!

                  Ok now, class dismissed. Here is your participation ribbon.
                  Run along and tell mommy what a good Lil’ tard you are. 🙂

                  • You can’t “politely suggest” a gun free zone to someone that’s a suicidal zombie. This is the disconnect most liberals have with laws. People I’ve met back in the 90’s were so sketch that a damn law ain’t gonna stop shit. What are you going to do, kill them twice?

                    (Well what you could do is NOT kill them, put em down with a tranq gun, and then re-institute the stocks in the public square punishment, for all the families of the victims to come by and give the guy something to really feel suicidal about but I digress).

                    No you can’t “suggest” a gun free zone.

                    However I’m fairly sure there’s a solution to this… working on it.

                • It seems to me that you’re an idiot, ‘Anonymous’.

            • “A good guy with a gun didn’t stop this bad guy.”

              By every indication the shooter was wounded by the officer in the exchange of gun fire and then took his own life. It’s likely the shots from the officer took the fight out of him.

              Gun laws most certainly don’t work as Paris France has shown where full auto AK47s (in abundance south of the Rio Grande) were used.

          • My money is on a crazed leftist or muslim trash that did this. Taking our guns is laughable. The only ones they will be successful with are sheep.

            • Turns out to be a Marine, a white guy with lots of tats (like the right winger racists have).

              Assumptions are usually wrong and lead you to look in the wrong direction.

              • There are many stupid white leftists and it makes no difference if he was a Marine or not.

                • All tattoos are “self-awarded badges of stupidity”. Be glad they have tattoos. That makes them easily recognizable, AND avoidable.

                  • jackdaniels,”All tattoos are “self-awarded badges of stupidity”. I like that perception and will use it in a new article about health and why NOT to be a tattoo sheep ! Same as any other sheep or even a Wildebeast.

                    • “Self-awarded badges of stupidity”. How original!

              • You better get used to it. Guns are going to be around forever in this country. It’s gonna get worse especially when the common man gets enough. The hammer is going to drop hard and this will all seem like child’s play

              • “…(like the right winger racists have).”

                Hmmm, what’s that make you?

          • Kevin2 and all,
            Anonymous is not here for good and/or honest reasons. It is in your best interest to absolutely ignore this poster, seriously.

            Too many of you have been posting too much information on here that is getting you catalogued. If you are real and genuine, please stop….I wish and hope the best for you in our country’s future.

          • Kevin2, yep GTFOOH the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

            somebody surely shit in this guys wheaties down at the local meat market for fat chics !

        • “keep the guns and extended magazines out of their hands that are making them go on killing rampages at bars when they predictably go over the edge.”

          riiight… the guns and standard capacity magazines “made them do it.”

          pull you head out of your arse.

        • I call bullshit on your comment, this is all a game to you leftist idiots,
          MOLON LABE

          • Gary Willis? Is that you?

        • Manchurian c i a candidate?
          A leftist targeting certain demographic, same as Las Vegas shooting that was covered up? Likely the victims were Trump supporters. Notice that Many country western events seem to be targeted.

          But compared to our ancestors. We live in safe times. People seem to forget that. So calm down folks. You will be ok.

          Russian/China missles and government workers are your real security and life threats.

      2. California, along with New York & Chicago, proudly claims to be the epicenters and liberal strong holds of some of the most totalitarian gun control laws in the entire country. We are constantly being told by liberals that California-NYC-Chicago style gun control laws should be imposed on all 50 states and once they are, terrible shootings like this will become a thing of the past.

        Yet, in every one of these liberal epicenters of gun control – we see the most frequent occurrences of these kinds of horrendous crimes. Why?

        Oh, and there is another interesting detail that might begin to trigger the conspiracy theory crowd. Las Vegas, October 2017 – whoever set that mass shooting event up deliberately chose a Country Music concert as the target. C&W Music concerts are attended by mostly White men and women. Likely supporters of Donald Trump and the Republican Party. In other words, pro-Second Amendment types of Americans.

        And, now – with this shooting – we again have a Country & Western bar being selected as the target. Most of the patrons inside this bar were probably White men and women. Likely supporters of Donald Trump and the Republican Party. In other words, pro-Second Amendment types of Americans.

        Are we seeing an emerging pattern here? Who was this shooter? What will we learn about his background? His political affiliations?

        • Shooter is probably another democrat on antidepressants, but they won’t talk about the pharma part. Gotta blame it on the gun and the “extended” magazine.

        • Laws dont keep people safe, LEO dont keep people safe, courts and prisons dont keep people safe,
          But yet polititians etc will be screaming for more of all of that,

          • Nailbanger, excellent point !

            I am curious how Tucker Carlson will deal with the Antifa twits showing up on his lawn last nite ? I like his show and points of view mostly, but he is surely one of the quasi intellectuals who still thinks you can deal with these maniacs by having a good dialogue and conversation or some such shit ? And he is about to find out otherwise, bigly. Anybody else wonder why supposed conservatives never simply stand their ground and call police and have these fools arrested for assault, menacing, threats, tresspass or what ever ? Every event we have seen in restaraunts etc could and should have ended with arrest of the perps. Yet the conservatives just take it and of course it only escalates in fervor and frequency.

            It is apparently too much to consider that these conservatives would dare defend themselves ? By their fucked up logic and quasi intellectual junk thinking that would make them no better than the attacker/perp ? Any wonder it all continues unabated ?
            I told Tucker about the citizens arrest laws and how to easily solve this legally, so we shall see if he pays any attention at all ? He can suffer or not, his choice as it is for all of us !

            • Also here in my county in Oregon we just passed a law that makes it illegal for anybody to make any law to undermine or override the 2nd amendment in any way. And it is overseen and carried out by the sheriff and local input committees. We now have 10 counties with this law and working to get many more. I expect this to go viral nationally as an example of legislation that actually works for the people ! Anybody wants more info just ask. We simply got enough signatures to get it on the ballot and voted it in NOV 6 ! If you are afraid to be on a list or some such crap don’t waste my time. We get shit done and I have said many times I only believe in results, nothing else in anything !

              • DowntoEarthThinking.com, interesting points. Had I been Carlson I would’ve appeared at the door with 12-gauge pump in hand and racked the slide one time. That usually stops trouble before it can ever start.

                • The Deplorable, I have already done exactly that except out in front of my house and it worked like magic. I would not let them get up to the door and gave one warning demand. Leave or you die right here ! They immediately realizes I was serious as a heart attack and begged me not to shoot ! That was a while back and not political at all. I got into a fight with a biker and beat him up goodly and his gang came to my house after they followed me home and tried to scare me, they lost ! I heard them our front on their bikes, got my shotgun and a pistol and went out front and shoved the shot gun right in the guys chest very hard that I just beat up in a Fred Meyers store and that was the end of it ! The left in a hurry.

              • That won’t stop the OSP from enforcing unconstitutional state laws, especially when olé pussy-breath Kate Brown gives the order.

                • Word. It was OSP at the behest of the Famous But Incompetent who murdered LaVoy Finicum. As far as Tucker Carlson standing in his front door with a shotgun, that would have given Rahm Emmanuel’s Chicongo Stasi Stormtroopers and excuse to light him up, along with his family. Why this man is living in a Communist septic tank is beyond me. He should be with his own tribe in an area surrounded by his like-thinking tribal members.

                  • DWEEZIL , it is not a “word is thing” , it is a fact. That is why the Oregon legislature passed an emergency law immediately after the murder to keep the names of the shooters from being accessed by the public. That has all been well known the entire time, but of course the entire thing was a giant cover up and still is. FBI was there and one agent did fire 2 shots, but OSP tac team murdered him under their supervision and assistance. Nothing new there ? Hopefully one day it will all be exposed because the real story of how and why it all happened has never been told for sure. Oregon is a very corrupted state at every level by the DEM/DSA. There was one woman lawyer appointed by Obama who was the cause of the entire episode as well as a seriously corrupted FBI agent and an out of control BLM agent. Both were also deep in the Bundy shams and court cases that were finally defeated. And most here donated almost nothing to help stop it all. Yet you justify junk internet sales of trash and sham wow products ?


                    I was also successful with this


                    Both were up for years and it was a very long battle with lots of gov harrassement and schemes focused at me and I NEVER gave up ! That is the difference between me and many of you here ! The only way I can be defeated is to kill me and I am still very strong, fit, healthy and quite capable both, mentally and physically ! And if they do kill me one day I will die standing on my own two feet not on my knees like a whipped dog and likely fighting the bastards ! Been there and done that many times now and on many levels, some beyond most of your imaginations and experience for sure. I do not give a fuck what any of you think, except those that pay attention and are willing to act in their own lives ! I know full well the rest are just A herd of Wildebeast jumping into the crocodiles blindly because the first guy did and the rest followed ?

                  • DWEEZIL , I like Tuckers work but he is very naive and in fact with is with his own tribe. Here is what happened at the country club prior to his home being targeted and he did not beat the shit out of the guy ? I would have knocked him out with two punches, maybe 5 seconds and very little commotion, done deal ! And more likely it would have never happened to me because he would have known he would get an ass whoopin immediately. Part of why this shit happens is because it is ALLOWED to happen not only by supposed authorities but by the victims and their own fathers ? All the intellectual crap is just crap at this level and only makes it all far worse as it escalates for a lack of correct and appropriate response, immediately. Should be clear most Americans are afraid of their own shadow and will do nothing about much of anything these days. Two versions of the same event more or less ?



                • Infidel, that remains to be seen as the sheriff is of course the ultimate authority, not OSP or anybody else.

                  Apparently your attitude and mindset is to do nothing and complain about it ? Your choice of course but as I have mentioned many times it is NOT mine . You are part of the problem with a wimpy and defeatist attitude and mindset from the get go. You have already lost and apparently do not see it ! As always someone else will have to do your duty for you, nothing new in USA for sure. 3% to 5% at best maybe 10% in the background. You actually harm us and undermine us.

              • Correction we now have 13 counties and many more interested ! No doubt i is a serious struggle but obviously worth it

          • Nailbanger, damn good points. The only thing laws, cops, courts, and prisons exist for is the terrorizing and oppression of we the people.

      3. Since the shooting didn’t involve one of those “evil” AR-15’s, I expect this story to drop out of the news cycle pretty quickly.

        • nope, expect it to be used to leverage full-on gun control in Kalifornia.

        • I wouldn’t be too quick to adopt that idea.

          I have already heard one radio news reporter saying that this shooter had an ‘extended’ magazine for the .45 ACP that he apparently used for the shooting. I go to gun shows fairly often, and since I spent 4 years in the military and got qualified on the 1911 .45 ACP pistol – those pistols normally have a magazine that holds 7 or 8 rounds. You can purchase extended capacity mags that hold up to 12 rounds, and I have also seen round drums for sale that slide into the 1911 pistol grip and hold about 50 rounds.

          With most modern semi-auto pistols in the 9mm caliber – such as Glocks or the Beretta 92A offering magazine capacities of 15 or 18 or more rounds, 1911 style, single stack .45 ACP pistols have seen decreases in sales because of their default 7-8 round magazine limitations.

          This could be a opportunity – real or staged – to provide a mass shooting that helps support the liberals lust to pass laws that limit the magazine capacity for semi-automatic hand guns.

          • Tucker, of course this just another false-flag incident to bring on more ‘gun control’ one step at a time. I’m not giving up shit.

            • I wonder if there will be a series of these events across the country ahead of the Dem takeover of the House. Then they will *have* to do something to protect the populace just like they helped with healthcare. Perhaps another you’ll have to pass it to see what’s in it kind of bill.

          • This is exactly what the Dems in the new congress will do, they will go after the judiciary and guns. Banning high cap mags will be what they try to do almost immediately. I advise every patriot to buy as many magazines as possibly. This is the time for stock up. If you dont have at least 50 AR15 30 round mags you dont’s have enough.

            • According to the text of the fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution:
              “No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.”

              Looks like any law infringing on a Citizen’s right to defense is invalid, to me.

      4. “They’ll” keep pushing this button until the public cracks and supports the anti gun agenda. Derail (and stay alive) the plan by shooting back. If you can legally carry do so 24/7.

        • I’m so tired of this “legally” crap. The 2A is all our gun permits. And God says we can defend ourselves. The government has no say in how I defend myself. They will get us with “legal.”

          • But unfortunately in many states carrying W/O permit is not just a felony but carries with it a mandatory sentence. I’m not justifying it but that’s the way it is in some areas.

            • I know. It’s just one of my pet peeves.

        • Kevin2 , depends on many things like where you live and how committed you are to demand accountability from the supposed law and law makers. See my comment above where we just passed a new county ordinance that forbids any undermining or changes with the 2nd amendment as it is written today !

          This does require a good sheriff and people who give a damn and are willing to stand up for those beliefs !

          When you start your premise with, well they will do this or do that so why bother? you already lost and are self defeating your own position. I see this a lot here on SHTF on many matters ? I refuse to roll like that on much of anything and that is why I am 70 and can easily kick most 40 year olds asses or many even 25 ! It is always about your mindset and how you think ! Always and in every matter and event of life ! Everything else is living in fear with no confidence in your own abilities on much of anything.

          Maybe it will finally soak in to a few more of you ? Either way I will still do what I do and enjoy it daily as many chase butterflies of prepper nonsense and fake website experts of nothing except internet email and google ads marketing shamwow products !

      5. Another country music venue. Sounds like that pining music drives some west coasters crazy.

      6. On the bright side, Supreme Court Justice and commie, Ruth Bader Ginsberg has been admitted to a hospital after a fall (push?).

        • Him, I heard she broke 3 ribs when she fell. At her age she won’t make a full recovery from that. Sounds like retirement is already knocking on her door.

          • I hope that old wretched bat keels over for good.

      7. Violence is only going to escalate. Arm yourselves. If you can’t legally carry then move.

        • Or carry anyway.

          • I second that. Carry anyway. Paying the government and begging for their permission to carry is an affront to us.

            • Menzo, I already do that. I don’t follow any laws that can interfere with self-defense. You have the natural right to self-defense and the right to have your life. Any law that says otherwise is null and void.

      8. Carry anyway. You have a right to life. Therefore you have a right to protect that life. Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

        • Staying out of bars, nightclubs, concerts and other mass public gatherings will do as much for your safety as will carrying a gun, maybe more. Stay out of “the wrong side of town” too (they’re usually very easy to identify by just looking).

          Don’t become part of a target rich environment.

          If you aren’t there, you don’t get shot.

          • I refuse to lock myself in my safe space and never live life.

            • NEC,
              If you think bars, concerts, nightclubs and mass public gatherings are “life” I strongly suggest you get a life.
              I for one hate crowds. I choose my friends very carefully
              and always have an exit planned.

            • I take it situational awareness and risk evaluation is not a part of your survival plans.

            • NEC_Wrangler, my safe place is literally millions of acres so none of that ever applies to me 24/7/365. That is why I deliberately do not live in a densely populated area. I used to and simply left years ago. I have no idea why anybody would live in such a place today simply because you have far more limits on you and the potential for bad things to happen and the frustration/anxiety level is far greater. So why even consider such ? Like everything it is a decision we can make.

              • DowntoEarthThinking.com, I was born and raised in an urban area so I know what you mean. But my job, home, and livelihood are still in that urban area. I’m at my BOL until the end of this month. Came here shortly before election day just in case the commies went full retard. The only thing other than retirement that can get me here permanently is for TSHTF. Most of my supplies are already here. I can be here from the urban area in only a few hours at most with enough notice. I keep tabs on everything so I’m a real internet freak. I’ve got family who are all like-minded and preppers in the same area so we have our plans in place. IF TSHTF before my vacation time is up, then I’m already in the right place. If/when my urban area goes belly up, then so be it. That day is coming; just don’t know when.

                • The Deplorable, you may have noticed I often point out things and clearly show things and events nobody else seems to even consider ? The reason is my mindset and how I live 24/7/365. My mind is quite clear for many good reasons and that is how I stay fit and healthy and capable always. I mention often it is always about how we think and then act on it, everything is ! It is no coincidence I live where I do and do what I do daily.

                  Everything else is living in fear and apathy. I refuse to do either and teach others the same easily.

          • “Stay out of ‘the wrong side of town’ too (they’re usually very easy to identify by just looking).”

            Subversives were in the right side of town, looking for swpl (stuff white people like), have been shutting down attractions, at least, since the civil rights era.

            Again, I say, dox ownership and hold them formally accountable for inadequate security. I hope that they lose their property, until they can use the short words.

            “they’re usually very easy to identify by just looking”

            Children are able to identify it, without being indoctrinated.

          • I have such an intense, borderline homicidal hatred for being exposed to nasty and foul smelling cigarette smoke – that I have not stepped foot in a bar in probably 30 plus years. The closest I have come to subjecting myself to cigarette polluted air has been a rare visit to a Las Vegas casino on my way to a specific restaurant inside the casino. Casinos have some of the most advanced smoke removal HVAC systems on the market, and the bigger casinos usually handle the second hand smoke fairly well.

            Nevertheless, I can’t quite fathom how anyone who does not smoke can tolerate going into a bar where smoking is allowed, although, being that this was a bar inside the Soviet liberal, totalitarian s-hole of California – I suppose there are laws out there making it illegal to smoke inside bars or restaurants. I am not normally supportive of laws passed by liberals, but in the case of smokers being allowed to stink up the air that I have to breathe – I like these kinds of laws. I still support the right of idiots who want to smoke and die of lung cancer, but only as long as they have to engage in that stupidity in places where I do not have to breathe or have my clothes poisoned by their nasty habit.

            Besides, drinking alcohol outside of one’s home – carries with it a risk of getting a DUI or getting into an accident while driving home. It’s safer and less dangerous to restrict your alcohol consumption to your own home.

      9. sure is Antifa sounding……

        • Only description of him I’ve found is a darker skinned middle eastern looking man with a beard.

          Have no idea if that is true or not, but the police have identified him and are currently refusing to release anything other than his age.

      10. Picky point on my part…

        I object to the media combining the number of victims along with the criminal in the body count.

        If the numbers are correct at this point, the media reports “13 dead in Bar Shooting”

        No dammit, there are 12 wonderful, innocent people dead and 1 criminal who apparently shot himself.

        But the scum media….etc, etc


      11. Well, turns out the initial ME looking man report was wrong.

        Reports now identify him as a 29 year old ex marine white guy.

        He used a Glock .45 caliber handgun.

        Which sorta fits with senseless slaughters of innocents for no apparent reason (Muslims do it for religious reasons).

        • A well trained Marine at that and not one of those pathetic leftist mass shooters. Count the number of rounds used…

          • Wonder what his discharge status and politics are.

            • Odds are he’s Dmooncrat, but they’ll probably call him a conservative for the Gun Control Agenda.

              • Yep

        • Anonymous, as I said in the beginning somebody shit in his wheaties at the meat market for fat girls. all the speculation is usually quite wrong and many times gov sponsored psyops

      12. The conservative mainstream is biting their tongue, so hard, not to say it.

      13. Drudge says ex-marine was the shooter.
        C&W bar mostly students from local area Christian universities.
        About every gun law in the state of California violated.
        You stupid asses(Democrats)really believe gun laws work?

        • Im sure our stupid democRATs do

        • I just don’t believe something that spectacular happens, at random, without any obvious, red flags.

          Tell me that some delinquent has held a post, as a “responsible” adult.

          I’ll tell you that a child could identify such people.

          The bouquet probably wilts, when they walk by, and small animals, run for cover. A Medieval witchfinder is possibly a better judge of character than HR.

          • The police have been called on him before for mental health reasons, they decided to clear him.

            Who knows what else.

            • Anonymous, anybody with a legitimate reason to be angry is subject to mental something in Kawleefoprnya. That is how the control the masses there easily. Nothing new is it ?

      14. Glock 21 with illegal high cap mags. (California). Marine with PTSD. Now they will try to disarm the veterans. Or at least any of them that have talked to a shrink or counselor.

        • Every Vet enrolled with the VA
          has been interviewed by a shrink.
          I was and I’m cleared.
          I see a VA doctor yearly for a physical.
          They always ask the same questions
          every time you get an appointment.
          First question is
          Do you want to hurt yourself or someone else?

          • Rellik, the vets in my family avoid the VA like it was HIV. They’ve had their own troubles with them in the past and just refuse to go back to them for anything.

          • rellik,
            “…interviewed by a shrink. I was and I’m cleared.I was and I’m cleared.”

            Possibly not anymore.
            Or, when they deem it necessary (soon), you will be classified as dangerous.
            When they tell you that “you are fine”, “passed this or that” or “we see no problems here”, please don’t take it for granted that they are actually telling you the truth.

          • rellik, that is not true at all. I was not and it would not keep anybody from hurting themselves ? Apparently you believe the BS ? Should we be helping vets that are now killing themselves enmasse ? Yes and I have many times and I am no shrink voodoo hypester. I am just help people heal themselves for realsies, on many levels !

            • rellik, also my fiend in 1970 was in RVN and I got a phone call one day and he ask me to come pick him up at LAX ? I was there in 68/69 and knew he was NOT supposed to be at LAX as he still had 8 months to deros. He simply said I really need your help , so I said OK and went and fetched him. He was strung out on heroin and had only been busted by CID in country 4 days prior. They simply put him on plane and then tossed him out on the street, simple as that, no nothing at all. And he was seriously hard core strung out because the heroin was near pure thanx to general Pau and our CIA and you could not even buy anything like that here in USA. As well the phony methadone thing did not exist, a good thing. I let him stay with me and got him dried out and he eventually got a job and moved on and just died last year. He was a machinist for 35 years and drank himself and smoked himself into a very early grave ! Completely his own doings !

              I have had very little to do with VA and receive everything for free, but have had mostly good experiences when I did. But I definitely do NOT let any doctors dictate anything to me at all so I am not a good example simply because I am very different than most people about my health and the responsibility for it ! Anybody that goes to any doctor and lets them use you as guinny pig is an idiot and will die early and quite miserable Doctors are not what you may think they are, not even close ! I am living proof and plan on staying that way for a long while. I go in once a year and get blood drawn and tell them what test to run and then do my own evaluation. works perfectly. I did get a thorough physical 3 years ago and the lady doctor was amazed at my overall health and fitness as well as all the feedback data on the treadmill. I was not surprised about anything. I have long known I was doing something very right, but that would be quite impossible to avoid to see and feel daily ?

        • Him, the PTSD thing is well past over used ad abused these days. I have seen no actual evidence he had such an issue , just speculation because he was a Marine ? I am not even sure he served in any combat ? are you, or just repeating what the herd says ? I actually have no idea nor does it matter to me. PTSD is just another made up phenom by the supposed voodoo shrinks who are themselves the lunatics !

          Consider Freud was a cocaine addict for years and he is the father of all psych voodoo control mechanisms today ! Had we listened to C Jung this world would be a far better place. But we were fooled once again by BS by he establishment control freaks and religious fools who ate up his pretense on the sexual powers as the main driving force of humans ! It was all part of establishing liberal thinking and policies as control mechanisms and has only morphed ever greater since ! It is all bullshit and nothing else but voodoo science. We have a lot of that these days for a reason.

      15. The drug companies bribed the politicians to release the dangerously ill from the institutions. Then the drug companies convinced everyone they would be safe if only the sick would promise to take their psychotropic drugs. Wanna bet he was taking some? At least some of the time?

        • Yes for sure but the MSM won’t mention it. Big Pharma has declared war on America.

        • Him , he may have been on some kind of drug or several. That does not mean he had anything wrong with him at all, but the drugs or the voodoo shrinks doing what they do ? And it helps or heals NOBODY , ever ! The only ones that survive and go on to do well at any level get the hell away from the supposed “professionals and experts ” with the initials behind their names getting paid to sell pharma and voodoo supposed science !

      16. The increased Frequency of Mass Shootings (10 or more victims, 1 year or less apart) happened entirely on Trump’s watch. Starting in Las Vegas (October 2017), Texas (November 2017), Parkland Florida (April 2018), Texas (May 2018), Pittsburgh (October 2018), Thousand Oaks (November 2018).

        That is not Trump’s “fault” – but the response is his responsibility.

        It’s a 1024 bit world, so the 8 bit knee jerk responses, such as “Democrat nut job”, “Republican nut job”, “Muslim terrorist” “SEIZE THE GUNS” etc say more about the person responding than they do about the situation.

        I know that each of these shootings is a Health Care Data point. We can infer a few personal facts about each of the mass shooters –
        * Their American “health care” did not work.
        * Most or all of them had little to lose. Nobody or no pet to miss them if they didn’t go home. No job or crappy job. They did not have a credit score above 700 – since that is a sign of somebody who is planning on being here tomorrow. Did not run a marathon, half-marathon, 10K, or similar event in the last 6 months – again a sign of somebody who wants to LIVE, that most or all of the shooters lacked.
        * The Obama White House had a petition asking that Obama investigate the connection between SSRI use and mass shooting incidents. IT WAS REMOVED ONCE IT GOT TO 50K SIGNATURES. That should provide an indicator of who ran the Obama White House. I would suggest that the connection with SSRI and SNRI med. use, and mass shootings, needs to be counted.
        * Gun Control is a long term project. Making schools safe is a short term project. It could have been accomplished by the end of Spring Break, after the Parkland shooting. That it wasn’t tells you something about Florida & National legislators – most of them are so removed from the Real World, they forgot how to deliver results on a tight schedule.
        * The choice to delay short term solutions, in favor of pushing the long term project of Gun Control, means that responsibility for every shooting since Parkland can be laid squarely at the feet of Schumer, Feinstein, etc. – and Trump.

        It is really fascinating to watch America’s Insanity.

        But it’s the wrong type of Fascinating news.

          • also I agree the drug/pharma thing is out of control but why would anybody give a crap if someone wants to willingly kill themselves with any of it, legal or not ? It is all just another of the many illusion/shams created to make you think the gov is the answer which apparently you do ? What is really happening is very simple and it is quite obvious. Nobody is forced to ingest anything at all, they do this willingly and the reason is America has a lot of dumb, weak minded, sick people ! Not exactly rocket science. I see it all as quite stupid to fret on any of it as they will simply eliminate themselves eventually like most viruses do. Same is true of the gay junk and AIDs. Let them simply kill themselves and go about your business ! My only complaint at all is that we are usually forced to pay for the insanity and stupidity. That is what I sees as the issue and nothing else ! Fuck em. I had zero to do with any of it and greatly resent paying for any of it. Here is the simplest of all solutions. Stand on your own two feet and do not ingest any of it ever ! Done deal for everybody.

      17. The gun grabbers are going to go bezerk over this and push to disarm all the victims so the shooters can more easily kill people. REcall the old west would disarming the pioneers have prevented the indian wars Not likely Letting all the cast off lunatics cf the world come here gets this type of event. Then of course there are the programed shooters who do the deed and then kill themselves so they cant be questioned. Contact shooters are us for all your political handy mass murder events. Need a right timed mass murder event remember shooters are us for all your needs.

      18. The people sit back while their future is engineered against them. It breaks down to an all out assault on humanity by government controlled entities. Liking your freedom involves fighting for it in the rapidly expanding open air prison camp that America has become. Voting changes nothing.

        • aljamo, agree on every point except the voting thing. I see Trump as our last chance and he cannot do it by himself. Voting today is more critical than ever !

      19. Antidepressant drugs are advertised on television.

        These drugs drive you insane.

        They are especially dangerous when your brain has become addicted then you discontinue using. When people say, “he’s off his meds”; they mean “he’s crazy”.

        One way to prevent serious depression is to avoid drugs. Alcohol is also a drug. Alone it is not as dangerous as when combined with other drugs.

        I lived near this area. It is upscale. There are white uppermiddle class people living there. And Country Western bars are always white bars. This is targeted to kill white Christian youth of childbearing age. It is another Las Vegas style shooting.

        Years ago there were movie stars living in Thousand Oaks.

        Simi-Valley was where an all white jury found police not guilty in the Rodney King beating setting off riots, beatings, and murders in a wild over the top racist reaction by blacks against all whites.

        The media reporting of the beating of King is what drove blacks crazy. They played the clip over and over and over and over and over until blacks saw red and wanted revenge.

        Let’s see how the media plays this up.

        Chances are it will be nonstop gun bashing and just ignore antidepressant drugs but instead focusing on ptsd and disarming unstable veterans.

        I would not be surprised if this was a false flag. I would not be surprised if it was either staged or just created by some fbi or cia coaxing a nut to do it. They play people.


      20. No doubt this horrible multiple murder will be politicized. California has draconian gun control laws already in effect, some of the most restrictive in America (and world), and clearly violating Californian citizens 2nd Amendment rights. But most citizens there have been socially conditioned and propagandized and rendered passive (check out Mark Dice’s videos).
        Politicians said they created these “common sense” laws so that this could never happen. Since their laws did not stop this crime where a gun was used, California will blame the rest of the nation for not having strict enough gun control and pass on responsibility to those who are not in lock-step with them. And of course, expect them to say Pres. DT and white supremacy to be responsible somehow too. With Congress, look for the new Democrat majority to propose reams of new legislation and scheme for massive and invasive new “gun control” measures. I bet in the California of 50 years ago there was little gun control but no crime like there is now. They now have volumes and volumes of gun control laws; so what are the real factors in the high levels of crime in present day California?
        Officialdom’s real long-term goal is the total outlawing and confiscation of all privately owned firearms. They know it could never succeed in one fell swoop, they believe however it can be accomplished in increments, therefore they always try to capitalize on multiple murder crimes. When it comes to gun control, officialdom and politicians always cloak their intentions and actions in terms of dealing with crime, this totally false. In reality, they want to nullify the 2nd Amendment, rendering the populace even more powerless, incapable of resisting and opposing the will of oppressive gov’t.
        In the US, is has been documented again and again, those areas with the strictest gun control has the highest rates of murder and general crime, and those areas with the most lax gun control has the lowest incidence. Look at Chicago, Baltimore, Washington, Detroit, and many many other cities with extremely high murder and crime rates; all have very restrictive gun control. In the Southern state where I reside, guns are everywhere, but murder and gun-related crimes are almost unheard of, sometimes years before one occurs.
        Officialdom needs to start admitting and ascribing the real main contributing factor in the vast majority of these terrible multiple murder crimes are persons with an untreated psychological/mental illness, an improperly medicated psychosis, illegal immigration, or just gang related. They know that, but they won’t say it, it doesn’t support their agenda. Rather, they hide facts from the public, and create new categories of “hate crimes”.

        • Bill, excellent points. I’m also a Southerner so I know where you’re coming from. It’s a PEOPLE problem, NOT a GUN problem. And they can take their “hate crime” and “hare speech” crap and shove it. Did you know those are RACE-BASED laws aimed against only ONE PARTICULAR GROUP OF PEOPLE? Guess which group? WHITE PEOPLE AND NO ONE ELSE. There’s not supposed to be any race-based laws on the books, period. Null and void. Total violation of the Constitution. I only live by the Bill of Rights and nothing else.

          • Speaking of Dumb Southerners. There is a town nearby that voted to “Keep Fluoride” in the municipal drinking water supply. Like WTF?, Dumbasses. lol

      21. To young people. Alcohol & drugs will not solve your problems. Abstain and cleanse your body with water and healthy food. I drank excessively as a young man, stopped cold turkey after making a mess of my life, eventually cleared my head, and lived a productive & rewarding life. Drugs & alcohol impair your ability to compete for mates, wealth, jobs, and other important aspects of life – STOP – give yourself a chance. It took years to clear my head – stay the course.

        • I second that! It’s the road to hell on Earth.

        • Most my family drinks like fish.
          I stick to beer.
          for the most part my family were all successful
          professionals, many were university educated.
          I’m still on my first marriage of well over 40 years.
          I suspect that because we kids were all taught how to deal with alcohol from an early age, we did not abuse a very powerful drug, alcohol.
          I’ve seen alcohol and other drugs destroy lives. I also know that a wholesale ban on alcohol and drugs doesn’t work. It is a personal discipline that everyone must learn. Much like wiping yourself after defecating. Do it wrong and it gets messy very quickly.

          • rellik, university educated means zero any more if it ever meant anything at all. In fact it really means the brains were sucked out of somebodies head and they believed they were actually intelligent based on their supposed education. Most are simply little more than a clone or a zombie for a seriously corrupted and fucked up system. Consider all of the most brilliant minds of all time were not university educated, in fact most were self educated. That is just a fact ! Was Liz Warren, the Harvard wiz kid smart or intelligent ? I can make a long list of good examples like Oreilly and Obama, or were all simply frauds and products of the illusions created ?

            Intelligence, knowledge and understanding never cone from any institutions, ever ! That should be well past obvious if one is paying attention. In fact that is quite impossible for good reasons.

      22. No criticism of the drug companies will be permitted on TV. Look at the ads on TV. Almost all are from drug companies. Criticize them and lose your ad revenue. Lose your ad revenue and go bankrupt.

        • Something like 85% of TV Network add revenue comes from Pharmaceutical Companies, another 10% from political adds, and 5% other.

          I don’t watch TV anymore. Cut the cord 3.5 yrs ago. All I ever wanted to watch were the nature channels. but now out at my BOL, I walk out the front door for all the real nature and in my face.

          Stay armed and area situational awareness in mind. Lots of trolls out there trolling the streets of America and parking lots. Put your cells phones away, when walking into stores and watch the parking lot for threats. Watch out for grocery food cart thefts out in parking lots, when loading your vehicle up. Carry daily. Trust no-one.

        • Him, and exactly what does not work that way here in USA today ? You may have noticed that is the problem !

          Or maybe not ?

      23. Just read that the shooter liked to call himself Abu Al-Hom on his facebook page. And he changed his appearance from the Marine photo we are being shown, to one of a Muslim convert. That explains the discrepancies we first heard by eye witnesses that said he looked middle eastern.

        • Today I am unable to find the article I read about the shooter’s conversion to Islam. May have been disinformation. Not sure yet. Still looking.

      24. To early for me to make any calls on this one but I just had to watch CNN to get their spin on things. It was painful to watch and that is all I will say about that. The timing of the shooting is just incredible. Never let one of these things go to waste as the gun control or I should say people control will love this one as well. Migrant caravans, mass shootings, the list goes on. Trump has had enough distractions to keep him from doing his job. Just keep piling on the bull shit and the only thing I will predict is all of this will come to a head in the near future, I think before the end of the year. God bless and as I always say keep your powder dry, the war is coming to our door step whether we want it or not.

      25. No one in my family has been or is an alcoholic. My parents almost never drank. They enjoyed Church functions but did not like how much some of their white upper middle class friends boozed it up.

        I got turned off to booze as a child. A very dignified lady I admired got falling down drunk and completely made a fool of herself.

        I have friends who died from alcoholism.

        Cannibis inhibits vomiting. So, it increases the deaths from alcohol toxicity. Usually, if one drinks too much they vomit. That should teach people something. Too much alcohol is poison.

        If you drink don’t smoke pot. Or, limit yourself to just one or two shots of hard alcohol, and just one or two small glasses of wine ? or a one cold beer.

        Pot is an antispasmodic, anti seizure herb with many useful medicinal benefits for Cancer and anorexia sufferers and for psychotics and others with drug addiction to stronger pharmaceuticals. It can be used to ease patients off pharmacy pain killers and other pharmacy opioids.

        Teenagers who smoke pot reduce their brains ability to fully mature. Although pot can be beneficial, it can also be detrimental, especially for teens. It is not something to be abused. The pot being produced today is not your grandparents pot. Baby boomers who smoked pot in college where exposed to a much more natural weed. Today’s weed is practically a pharmacy drug. It has been inhanced and it’s potency is greater. Children who think pot is fun don’t realize that it will make them dull. Potheads are not generally ambitious. They are too sedated to challenge the competition and so there are those who would like nothing better than to see the youth distracted with getting high instead of getting ahead of the competition.


      26. Jesus Blesses America.
        Remember always,
        God Believes in You!

        God is Love, Love LOVE with all your heart, mind, body, and soul.

        Avoid all addictions and Turn to Jesus.

        Love LOVE. Love Everyone. Love Yourself.

        Fill your heart with generocity and gratitude. Peace and Forgiveness, and Joy and Happiness is your reward for helping people and doing good.

        We are praying for everyone –
        LOVE SAVES !
        So LOVE as much as you can!

      27. I better talk to a patent attorney.

        I’m sick of this bullshit. The loss of life FROM guns (and I own three)… and the upcoming loss of life from lack of self defense options that will eventually result. Both are too horrible to contemplate continuing.

        A gun should be a defensive weapon only.

        And I can render it that in (perhaps not ALL cases) but many. MANY. Cases. Huge percentage of cases.

      28. ?? News article Breitbart” Nancy Pelosi Aims to Take Away Firearm Freedoms” And she’ll soon be in control of the house. The second amendment was never more important than now. We are not in a civil war, we are in the midst of a communist style overthrow of America. If America goes down, so does all of our allies! Keep informed, spread the word. My opinion. Read the full article here.

        • The demorats can pass all they like in the house but the senate will shoot it down as well a a presidential veto if it would get past the senate. They remain impotent thankfully.

          • Except that the left is now trying to steal the elections in Florida and elsewhere so they can eliminate that barrier.

            I’m telling all you Patriots, better stock up on high cap magazines and 556/223 now. By spring we’ll see another AWB, on steroids.

        • GrayEagle, Pelosi can have them BULLETS FIRST.

      29. Don’t believe it! California has strict laws on magazine capacity and is basically a gun free state abiding criminal/deranged lunatic would dare violate the law. Especially when those in the gun free zones were nothing more than sitting ducks. Just goes to show that a security guard is the first target, then anyone else in the shooters sight. If there had been a few armed law abiding citizens in the establishment (thought off duty police typically carried), maybe there would have been far less carnage and the shooter would have met his maker…or the devil, much sooner!

        • Mustang, Kawleefornya police have long been neutered a feminized, quite worthless except to draw a absurd pensions and vote for DEM and union criminals !

      30. I suspect the shooter was “chipped” like the Batman Movie theater shooter and the September Naval Yard shooter.

        The mark of the beast, aka, the ‘chip’, renders you powerless so you hear voices commanding you AND you are powerless to resist what those voices tell you to do.

        If you do research you will find the technology exists.

        Resist the mark 100%. Never get chipped for ANYTHING, no matter WHAT bullcrap advertising or conveniences they tell you that you will “enjoy”. Far from it. The Father of Lies will dangle ANYTHING in front of you to get you to buy such bullshit.

        – the Lone Ranger

        “Evil is that which destroys.” – Dr. M. Scott Peck, M.D.

        “It is no secret that evil is live spelled backward.” – Dr. Peck

        “Evil is that which is in opposition to the life force.” – Dr. Peck

        • Bingo!

      31. Deep. State. Staged. Event.

        Why, you ask?

        DECLASS about to be released. At Trump’s signal, all hell will be released. On them.

        These mass shooters ARE the sleeper cells.

        They don’t need rag heads anymore. They activate the mind programmed schitzos.

        Endless supply of them. Welcome to bipolar tricolor quad polar USA.

      32. It’s the Daily Mail not the Times of London saying so, but for what it’s worth:

        Tattooed ex-Marine who killed twelve in bar massacre suffered from PTSD:

        You’ll never see the Dartmouth and Stanford types doing this because while they send the working class out to die for their lies they’re safely in Silicon Valley and Wall Street, counting the billions that global militarism brings in.

        Militarism counts on a permanent “army” of the under-educated and under-employed. That there are so many millions of people in that group isn’t accidental. When your likely life choice is patrolling the dogfood aisle at Walmart, becoming Corporal Snort, playing with cool toys, and the opportunity for valuable benefits looks pretty good.

        So long as the people who benefit the most from militariam pay none of its cost it’ll continue.

        Before more evidence filtered in my hunch was this was part of a Bernaysian (Edward Bernays, propaganda master who sold a lot of Chevrolets and was the brains behind “Gay Marriage.”) campaign targetting the people most likely to support the Second Amendment.

        Notice the victims were Country Music people, likely Caucasian, Christian, and politically conservative. The classical Pro 2-Am crowd.

        Tell me how many yuppie fern bars in Sausalito have gotten shot up. Why not? It’s because the pajama boys and manly wimminz in such places are already cultural marxists who hate the Second Amendment.

        Social change happens by changing the “emotional temperature” of an issue at the sub-rational level. When tens of millions of people change their // attitude // about an issue, movement Lefty attorneys get SCOTUS to ratify what a hundred million of the recently (and sub-rationally) newly persuaded now believe.

        First emotional “hidden persuaders” via academia and the media. Then political and SCOTUS make it official.

        The campaign against smoking.

        The campaign to accept homosexuality

        The campaign to accept “gay marriage.”

        The “gender is whatever anyone says it is” shtick.

        Do you think those are proceeding by happenstance? NO. There’s some sophisticated psychology and mass marketing going on.

        • Heard yesterday about some 69-yr-old guy who want to legally change his age back 20 years. I forget which news was on the tube although I took a quick look up from my work in hand to see the picture of this guy showed he’s definitely no spring chicken. His reasons included feeling pretty young and in good health as well as being able to chase younger women.

      33. It was staged. And they used the WORST crisis-actors yet.

        Oh, ALLEGEDLY, 60 of the people at the bar survived the mass-shooting in Las Vegas.

        Un-f**king-believable that they would actually be so brazen.

        These ‘witnesses’ need to be arrested for obstruction of justice, filing a false police report, fraud and reckless endangerment.

      Commenting Policy:

      Some comments on this web site are automatically moderated through our Spam protection systems. Please be patient if your comment isn’t immediately available. We’re not trying to censor you, the system just wants to make sure you’re not a robot posting random spam.

      This website thrives because of its community. While we support lively debates and understand that people get excited, frustrated or angry at times, we ask that the conversation remain civil. Racism, to include any religious affiliation, will not be tolerated on this site, including the disparagement of people in the comments section.