Home Defense: “If You Can’t Protect It, You Don’t Own It”

by | Sep 21, 2012 | Emergency Preparedness | 348 comments

Do you LOVE America?


    This article has been generously contributed by Tess Pennington of Ready NutritionAfter joining the Dallas chapter of the American Red Cross in 1999 Tess worked as an  Armed Forces Emergency Services Center  specialist and is well versed in emergency and disaster management & response. You can follow her regular updates on PreparednessHomesteading, and a host of other topics at www.readynutrition.com.

    Editor’s Note: In Week 51 of the 52 Weeks to Preparedness, Tess Pennington discusses the armaments and force multipliers that will be necessary for protecting your family, your property and your supplies when law and order break down. Each of us has specific needs for inner and outer perimeter defense depending on our location, population density and the expected threats we may face. As such, the following is a general list of guidelines and firearm recommendations to follow. Whereas some of us may agree on a certain caliber for a handgun, or a certain type of rifle, we all bring different skills and financial capabilities to the table. This is a topic that is critical to our very survival, because if we’re expecting the system as we know it to completely fall apart all around us, then we can be assured that the aftermath of such a collapse will be plagued with hungry hordes, drug addicts in withdrawal and violent criminals who will not hesitate to take what they want if you can’t stop them.

    “If you can’t protect it, you don’t own it;” this popular prepping phrase describes the mentality the unprepared have about you and your preps. I’m not saying it’s fair that people could steal from you, but it’s a reality, and a concern you should not take lightly. The fact is that crime seems to escalate in the aftermath of a disaster; something we have seen with many disasters, and as recently as Hurricane Isaac.

    Over the last year, we have discussed how important it is for security measures to be in place especially during and following a wide-spread disaster. In an earlier newsletter written on the subject of external security measures, I wrote, “a ‘bug in’ scenario may be our only choice after a disaster strikes and we must prepare not only for our basic needs, but also for our safety. Since the grid may be down following a disaster, each household should prepare for crime.”

    I realize there are some who believe a gun does not belong in the home; and in all honesty, that is your God given choice; be that as it may, if we are talking about protecting ourselves in a short-or long-term disaster, then we have to assume that local emergency responders will not be as readily available and crime could be a threat to our livelihood and well-being. If that is the case, then a firearm should be as much a part of your preparedness plan as having the coveted beans and Band-Aids. I don’t know about you, but if someone kicked in my door, I know they aren’t looking for a cup of sugar. Their motivation is purely to take something that you have or cause harm to you or a family member, and you must assume the worst. Trying to communicate with him or her will not do the trick if they are inside your home. On the other hand, a rifle pointed directly at the intruder’s chest, however, would make a very clear statement, wouldn’t it?

    I would like to emphasize that a gun should never be in the home of someone who does not know how to properly handle or understand gun safety protocols; this is an accident waiting to happen. That said, if you plan on owning and keeping a gun in the home, it is my recommendation that every family member, including children learn the gun safety and handling rules. Further, every time you pick up a firearm, you must assume that it is loaded. Checking the magazine and gun chamber to make sure a bullet is not lodged is going another step further in ensuring safety measures.

    Lisa Bedford, the Survival Mom, also believes in teaching her children about the importance of gun safety. In her article, “Two Things My Kids Know about Gun Control,” she doesn’t want guns to be a mysterious forbidden fruit. “After all, what is more alluring to a child?… So, our kids have been taught how to shoot. Both have shot a thousand rounds or more from their .22 rifles.” Lisa also recommends visiting the NRA website to use their Eddie Eagle GunSafe Program which is available to individuals, schools, and groups and priced affordably.

    Lisa also has a great article geared toward women on the 23 Truths of Firearms you should consider reading.

    Best Firearm for Children or First Time Users

    So what’s the best all-around gun for the entire family? In my humble opinion, the .22 rifle or .22 pistols are the best choices for first time gun owners or for teaching children how to shoot. A great selling point of this caliber is it has little to no recoil, and can be used in a multitude of situations including home protection and used in hunting small game (and even large game from a certain distance).

    An added benefit is the ammunition is reasonably priced, which means that a .22 can be an excellent practice rifle to learn basic rifle shooting skills at a fraction of the cost of other rifles.

    Best Firearm for Home Protection 

    My #1 choice for overall home protection is the shotgun. Either a 12-gauge or the slightly smaller 20-gauge are excellent choices. In the article, “An Introduction to SHTF Home Defense, Guns and Safety“, at www.SHTF Plan.com, the author agrees with these sentiments and goes on to suggest that the best all around shot gun to purchase is a 12-gauge.

    “During my concealed weapons permit course, the instructor said something to the effect of “for a home defense shotgun, you can pick any gauge you want…as long as it is 12-gauge.”

    First, 12-gauge shotguns offer a generous spread (i.e., you don’t have to be that accurate) and/or stopping power, depending on the type of ammunition of course.  Second, 12-gauge shells are BY FAR the most common and the easiest to find (compared to .410, 20-gauge, etc.) and often the least expensive. Wal-Mart (where I buy much of my ammo) usually carries everything in 12-gauge from very light loads for hunting birds and clay shooting to 00 buckshot and slugs.”

    As far as what bullets to use, the author explains that 2 ¾ shells are the most common, and most shotguns can use them.

    For a SHTF scenario, as opposed to home defense, 00 (‘double ought’) buckshot, which is essentially 7-9 pellets (for a 2 ¾ shell) similar in size to a 9 mm bullet, is probably the way to go, as it offers some spread and SERIOUS stopping power, and decent range (maybe 50 yards or so).  If you want more penetration (but no spread), you may want to consider a rifled slug.

    …BUT for home defense, 00 buck and slugs MAY not be the best choice.  One of the concerns with firing at an intruder in your house is what happens to the bullet/pellet if you miss the bad guy, or it goes through the bad guy? Some ballistics tests have indicated that various types of buckshot can easily pass through several layers of sheetrock because of the relatively high momentum of the projectiles.

    Therefore, some experts recommend a lighter load if the shotgun is intended only as a “under the bed” weapon.  One commonly recommended load is No. 4 birdshot, which has a higher number of smaller pellets compared to 00 buck.  While still offering ‘decent’ stopping power, it will spread a bit more than buckshot and really cut down the possibility of injuring a family member in another room or a neighbor.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that you can load your shotgun with alternating rounds (e.g., #4 bird, slug, 00 buck, #4 bird, etc.) just be sure to have the series memorized.

    Two of the most popular, reliable and cost effective shotguns available are the classic Remington 870 and the Mossberg 500. Both are pump shotguns that have been tried and tested in real life situations with excellent results.

    Best Pistol for Home Defense

    Pistols are another popular choice for home defense weapons. Some of the most popular pistols to purchase are .9 mm, .40 cal., and .45 cal., which means that the ammunition is also widely available. In a situation where ammunition becomes scarce, having one of these three calibers, especially 9mm and .40 caliber, may allow you to use it as a medium of exchange to trade for other goods. Likewise, it will be much easier to find than other ‘specialty’ ammunition.

    Before you purchase a weapon for home defense, you want to take into consideration:

    • The price of the firearm, magazine and ammunition
    • How much recoil it will have
    • Whether or not there is a safety mechanism on the firearm
    • What type of firearm offers up the highest capacity for magazines
    • And of course, which firearm offers the most stopping power

    9 mm firearms recoils the least, so it’s generally the easiest of the three to stay on target after pulling the trigger, and usually offers higher capacity magazines compared to the other two. 9 mm is usually the least expensive of the three. A con to this type of firearm is it does have the least stopping power.

    .40 caliber firearms offers (in a defensive round) more stopping power than 9 mm, but usually ‘snaps’ (or recoils) more than BOTH 9 mm AND .45. Many law enforcement personnel have switched from 9mm semi-automatic handguns to the .40 caliber in recent years because of the increased stopping power.

    .45 caliber firearms offers the most stopping power but you’ll generally have to sacrifice a few rounds of magazine capacity and a bit a penetration (which might be a good thing depending on the situation). Comparably speaking, between the three calibers discussed, there usually isn’t that much of a price difference between the three calibers discussed, although the .45 is the most expensive.

    Handguns come in numerous price points ranging from $300 to $1000, so there is certainly a good, reliable weapon out there for anyone who needs to acquire one. The Beretta 92FS 9mm is a favorite in our family and has been used by officers in the United States military since the early 1980′s. Glocks in 9mm or .40 caliber are proven in the field as well. The 1911 model .45 caliber is an excellent choice for those looking for more serious stopping power and has been standard issue (M-45) for the Force Recon element of the United States Marine Corp. since 1985.

    Assault Rifles / Long Range Weapons

    When discussing home defense preparedness we can’t ignore the possibility of a total breakdown of law enforcement capability in our immediate local region. In an event such as this we may be faced with multiple attackers attempting to overtake our homes and land. While a shotgun or handgun are both excellent close proximity defense weapons, they will not fare well at longer distances. If you have a property with acreage that needs to be defended you’ll want to seriously consider acquiring an assault rifle.

    It would be quite difficult to neutralize a target at 100 – 200 yards with a handgun or shotgun, but for an assault rifle it becomes much more feasible.

    Like handguns, there are numerous choices available. Here are a couple of excellent options we have found for our own personal defense.

    One of the more popular “zombie weapons” out there is the AR-15, made by multiple manufacturers and based on the military version of the M-16. This rifle is chambered in 5.56mm x 45mm round, which is essentially a .223 caliber (there are some special circumstances here, so do your research on ammunition for this rifle if you choose to go with this model). The recoil on an AR-15 is negligible compared to other assault rifles of higher caliber, so it’s easier to control. It is highly customizable allowing operators to add force multipliers that include after-market equipment like scopes, magnification, night vision, flash lights, suppression, etc. Because of its popularity, the AR-15 is fairly inexpensive with base models starting in the $800 range. It’s also widespread in the United States, so parts are readily available. So, too, is the ammunition (for now).

    Most families will want to have the same weapons platform – a his and hers model, so that you can share ammunition, after- market equipment and parts. If one gun breaks, you can always use it for parts for your other weapon. Buying two AR-15′s would run at least $1600 for basic models, so cost may be an issue for some.

    One alternative option for an excellent “SHTF weapon” is the SKS. Somewhat similar to an AK-47, the SKS is chambered in a standard round of 7.62mm x 39mm. It is not as easily customizable as the AR-15, but as a perimeter defense assault rifle can be just as effective in the right hands. At a starting price point of around $350 it is an excellent choice for those on a budget. There are numerous manufacturers of this weapon, all foreign and originating from Russia, China and Yugoslavia. Certain models of this rifle have been banned in some states (making it all the more desirable!), but they are readily available for purchase online or at local gun shows.

    For some, home defense also means being able to protect your property at long range. While assault rifles are effective for a couple of hundred yards, a long-range hunting weapon may be a better option for anything exceeding 200 yards.

    Like AR’s and handguns, you have lots of options. And like AR’s and handguns, consider looking into a weapon that utilizes popular ammunition. The .308 is one such caliber and is effective up to roughly 800 yards (though most of us would have a hard time hitting a target at that range). In addition to being able to provide long-range, highly accurate firepower and support, a 308 is an excellent hunting rifle. If society has broken down, there’s a strong likelihood that food will become scarce, so you’ll want to have a weapon with which you can hunt effectively.

    Depending on your personal preference, you can consider looking at a traditional bolt-action single shot 308, or going with an assault rifle model like the Armalite AR-10 (used for guard duty by some military personnel because they can stop oncoming vehicles) or the FN AR semi-automatic 308. A bolt action model can be had for $300 – $600 for basic models, and in excess of $1000 for the semi-automatic rifles mentioned.


    In addition to the magazines that come standard with your firearm – usually two – you’ll want to consider having some in reserve. You can never have too many reserve mags, but stockpiling these can become expensive, so consider having at least three primary magazines and one in reserve.

    You can purchase “factory” mags that are manufactured by the same company that made your firearm, or you can purchase after-market magazines manufactured by a number of different companies. The factory magazines are almost always more expensive, and for good reason. They will almost always perform better than those manufactured by original equipment manufacturers. If you have to purchase non-factory magazines, I strongly recommend that you read multiple reviews from others who have tried them. You are depending on your magazine to work to specifications 100% time. Failure can mean death, so it’s in your interest to spend the extra money on the best magazines you can buy if at all possible.

    Different states have different laws regarding “high capacity” magazines. In some states like California, magazines cannot hold more than ten (10) rounds, while states like Texas have no restrictions. In recent years federal legislation for high capacity magazine restrictions has been introduced, which means at some time in the future owning a 17 round magazine may be illegal in any part of the country. This, of course, poses a problem in a situation where the rule of law breaks down and you are forced to defend yourself against multiple targets.

    One solution for those living in states where high capacity magazines are illegal is to only keep parts on hand. Though I am not advocating that you break or circumvent laws in your state, having parts or a parts kit, as opposed to assembled magazines, may be one way to still be prepared for a scenario where you could be threatened by multiple attackers and a higher volume of firepower is required. If you are ever presented with the worst case, you could re-assemble those parts.

    Certain states, like California, also have laws that require “fixed magazines” in rifles that cannot be removed with a simple push of the magazine release. They require a special, external tool (like a screw driver) to remove the magazine. This, of course, poses a serious problem when dealing with an external threat. Though you’d never want to circumvent these laws, in a situation where lawlessness reigns, having parts on hand to make necessary modifications may be beneficial.

    Note: Research pertinent laws in your state, as firearm restrictions do vary. The better you understand the laws, the better equipped you will be to make quick decisions when under great stress.


    Over penetration in a home defense situation, IS a concern, especially with Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) ammunition. A ‘nightstand’ pistol, in any of the above calibers, with a defensive round, such as some sort of hollow point, is STRONGLY recommended, as it increases stopping power significantly and reduces the odds of injuring an innocent party.

    Purchase a ‘defense’ type (e.g., hollow point) bullet (as opposed to ‘ball’ or full metal jacket) in any of these three rounds provides plenty of stopping power (Click here for a brief description of ammunition types).

    How much is enough? In all honesty, you can never have too much ammunition. In a long-term emergency, you will want to have ammunition not only for protecting your home, but for hunting purposes as well. Before we get to a specific number, you need to take into account that you will also need a few thousand rounds in reserve for target practice. At one target practice, one person can easily blow through a few hundred rounds. Having a minimum of 500-1,000 rounds for each of your guns is a good starting point. If you can, purchasing ammunition in bulk will be more economical, but purchasing a box of ammunition every chance you get is alright too. Just stick to what is within your budget!

    For something like a .22 which can be used for hunting, personal protection and target practice, you can stock even more especially since it is so cheap. Additionally, take into consideration that purchasing bulk ammunition for popular calibers will be a HUGE bartering item.


    You can either panic when confronted with a life threatening situation, or you can be like the security guard in the following video and act without hesitation to thwart an assault by multiple armed assailants:

    Put simply, having dependable accuracy when shooting is a skill that takes practice and will depreciate over time if the skill goes unused. Therefore, visit the target range regularly and take an assortment of firearm training classes to maintain or improve your skill level. Courses such as a hand gun class to teach you the right stance, grip, and how to position your body to absorb the gun firing would be a great starting point for beginners. Here is a map to find shooting ranges both indoor and outdoor in your area. One more point I would like to make regarding practicing, is if you or your home comes under attack for any given reason, you will be under a great amount of stress and will need to feel comfortable with the firearm in your hand. When you practice regularly, you become familiar with the gun and subsequently develop muscle memory. If the time comes when you need to use a firearm for defensive purposes, you will be confident in your abilities and your firearm.

    One other recommendation for those serious about improving their skills is to attend simulations. Paintball and Airsoft battles add some realism to your training, as you will be firing at live targets (and trying to evade getting shot as well!). It will give you the ability to hone your skills in environments that will be similar to the real thing. Simulated battles like this will also allow you and your team to learn to work together in high stress, high pace environments. What’s more, you can purchase your own equipment and work together in learning how to defend your own property by setting up simulated scenarios.

    Body Armor

    Here is the reality of it: If you are shooting down range or shooting to protect your home there is a very strong possibility that someone will be shooting back at you. This is especially true should the world as we know it fall apart and you are forced to fend for yourself and defend your family, your home and your supplies.

    People are going to die when the bullets start flying. As such, one of the absolute best investments you can make to reduce your chance of serious injury or death is body armor. This includes a helmet, a vest to protect your chest, neck protector, groin protector, and even side guards to protect your ribs and vital organs.

    As is the case with firearms, there are numerous options for body armor. My advice is that you save your money and go with the absolute best protection you can afford.

    Here is a brief breakdown of the different levels of body armor:

    Type I (.22 LR; .380 ACP)
    This armor protects against .22 long rifle lead round nose (LR LRN) bullets. Type I body armor is light. This is the minimum level of protection. (Note: In my opinion this is not going to cut it)

    Type II-A (9mm; .40 S&W)
    This armor protects against 9mm full metal jacketed round nose (FMJ RN) bullets and .40 S&W caliber full metal jacketed (FMJ) bullets. Type II-A body armor is well suited for full-time use by police departments, particularly those seeking protection for their officers from lower velocity 9mm and 40 S&W ammunition. (Note: It’ll stop a lower caliber handgun, but that’s it)

    Type II (9mm; .357 Magnum)
    This is the next step up from Type II-A and is worn full time by police officers seeking protection against higher velocity .357 Magnum and 9mm ammunition. (Note: It’s good for lower velocity handguns, but that’s about it)

    Type III-A (High Velocity 9mm; .44 Magnum)
    This armor protects against 9mm full metal jacketed round nose (FJM RN) bullets and .44 Magnum jacketed hollow point (JHP) bullets. It also provides protection against most handgun threats, as well as the Type I, II-A, and II threats. Type III-A body armor provides the highest level of protection currently available from concealable body armor and is generally suitable for routine wear in many situations. (Note: For the prepper planning on worst case scenarios my opinion is that this is the absolute minimum in body armor protection)

    Type III (Rifles)
    This armor protects against 7.62mm full metal jacketed (FMJ) bullets (U.S. military designation M80), with nominal masses of 9.6 g (148 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 838 m/s (2750 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against Type I through III-A threats. Type III body armor is clearly intended only for tactical situations when the threat warrants such protection, such as barricade confrontations involving sporting rifles. (Note: If you are in a situation where you are firing an assault rifle at the enemy, they are probably doing the same. You’ll want at least this level of protection for those situations.)

    Type IV (Armor Piercing Rifle)
    This armor protects against .30 caliber armor piercing (AP) bullets (U.S. military designation M2 AP). It also provides at least single-hit protection against the Type I through III threats. Type IV body armor provides the highest level of protection currently available. Because this armor is intended to resist “armor piercing” bullets, it often uses ceramic materials. Such materials are brittle in nature and may provide only single-shot protection, since the ceramic tends to break up when struck. As with Type III armor, Type IV armor is clearly intended only for tactical situations when the threat warrants such protection. (Note: If you are digging in this is the body armor you would want. It is expensive. It is also going to be heavier than other types of protection. Combined with other gear you may be carrying when mobile, the added weight with this body armor may require serious physical conditioning. But, it will stop high power armor piercing rounds – something other protection levels simply can’t do.)

    The full article with videos is available for your review here.


    The fact that we have the luxury of discussing this issue means that the proverbial you-know-what has not hit fan. In reality, if we were in the midst of a true shtf scenario, you wouldn’t care what firearm you had – just as long as you had something to keep the bad guys at bay. We are lucky that we still have time to research, practice and fine tune this pertinent skill, so use this time wisely.

    I leave you with this advice; do not be solely dependent on a firearm for protection. As much as I value my firearm, I know that it can be taken out of my hands and used against me. Learning of other forms of personal protection such as hand-to-hand combat, krav maga, martial arts and other forms to self-defense for last resort measures will only make you more capable of protecting yourself, your loved ones and your preps.

    Related Information:

    National Rifle Association

    Gun Laws State by State

    Portions of this article have been inspired by An Introduction to SHTF Home Defense, Guns and Safety written by Rick Blaine.

    Special thanks to U.S. Army Sergeant (Ret.) Ed Thomas of The Daily Sheeple for his valuable insights and time.

    Preps to Buy:

    Purchasing guns and ammunition are some of the most expensive items you will be adding to your preparedness supplies, so it’s understandable if you can’t purchase all of these items in one week. Prioritize what’s important and keep your needs in mind when buying items for self-defense. You may need to stretch out these purchases over a longer amount of time. Be sure to do your research on state regulations and considerations for which type of firearm to purchase.

    • Firearm for home defense
    • Ammunition (500-1,000 rounds per firearm)
    • Extra magazines
    • Spare parts or kits
    • Gun cleaning kits
    • Ammunition storage case (waterproof)
    •  Protective gear (i.e., helmet, a vest to protect your chest, neck protector, groin protector, and even side guards)
    • Gun enhancement equipment (i.e., scopes, magnification, night vision, flash lights, suppression)

    Action Items:

    1. Check the pertinent laws in your state, as firearm restrictions do vary.
    2. You may want to consider going to a gun range that rents firearms to test which equipment is best for you and your needs.
    3. Take a hand gun course to familiarize with proper stances, grips to gain better accuracy.
    4. Consider taking a hand-to-hand self-defense class.
    5. Minimize the threat of a home break in or home invasion by adding layers of security to prevent your home from being a possible hit.
    6. Designate a safe room in the home and talk with all family members on proper protocols.

    This article has been contributed by Tess Pennington of Ready Nutrition. Subscribe to Tess’ Get Prepped Weekly Newsletter for more emergency preparedness tips, homesteading ideas, and insights. As a subscriber to her free newsletter you’ll receive the latest updates from her 52 Weeks to Preparedness Emergency Preparedness and Disaster Planning Series. It’s well worth your time, and oh, did we mention it’s totally free?

    Ready Nutrition and SHTFplan.com take your privacy very seriously and will not distribute or share your email address with other parties.

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      1. Without guns and ammo, you’re wasting your time on every other prep.

        The zombies will not go quietly into the night, and neither will I.

        • Did this article say bird shot has decent stoping power? Maybe it would come in handy if we are overrun by crows or ducks I suppose. For a human attacker this is bad information and could result in serious consequences for the “bird hunter”

          • A facefull of birdshot will wreck anyones day but there are much better choices. You can make wax slugs from birdshot that are downright nasty. There is a vid on youtube about it.

            • With bird shot, one would basically only wound the intruder without a vital hit. If you have to shoot, shoot to kill with the least amount of ammo fired.

            • BRW,
              This is a subject where you, possee, VRF, and others I forgot to mention ( you know
              who you are) shine.
              Don’t hold back on opinions and critiques of this piece.
              You guys have been there and done that first hand.
              If there are things you would approach differently, then let us know.
              I see the anti gun trolls are out…..
              I love it!
              Feed off of that low testosterone, new castrati negative energy!

            • National Gun Day gun show Saturday, September 22 & Sunday, September 23 in Louisville, KY.
              2000 tables

            • Defensive rounds..

              A myriad of opinions and facts for all concerned..

              Personally..? I prefer a semi auto pistol with a chambered round and 10 round magazine backup ready to load ..period..

              Always carry 24 /7 ..practice practice practice !!!!!dry firing and live range scenarios..and remember..almost all pistol fights are within 15 feet and last only 5 seconds or so..statistically,

              and the best method I have learned is practice actual scenarios at the range…perp approaches..draw and fire 2 shots and then move either left or right walking backwards at 30-45 degrees from the target while firing all rounds..it is difficult but could save your life..

              keeps you out of the targets grasp or fire-line in a straight path and allows you to withdraw at an opportune angle and eliminate the threat..

              just my 2 cents..

              and it doesn’t matter what caliber you choose..

              well placed shots are the key..

              be it a 45 or 22..if you can’t hit the target..
              you ‘re dead..period.

              I go the range several times a week and watch well intentioned shooters fire away at a standstill at 15- 50 feet and miss the target with 9 mm 40 cal and 45 cals alike.

              yes the argument is for large calibers..

              but if you can’t hit after 4 or 5 rounds due to recoil..forget it..

              I’ll stick with a 22lr for practice, and self defense, all day long..

              Place all 10 rounds center mass..even at 45 degrees walking backwards..

              and keep my 40 cal s&w carbine for multiple threats.


            • Slick…gosh, where do I start? The article is good..lots of good 411. I guess the bottom line is, and others have mentioned it, is that you can’t just own a gun and shoot a few times a year and delude yourself into thinking you can handle a crisis situation. I have used a gun in a self defense situation twice in my life and neither time was I calm. I have been to quite a few private weapons schools and had military training and you cannot gauge your reaction based on your training. Anyone who thinks they are ready for a SHTF survival scenario needs to do some serious soul searching and ask themselves some hard questions. This will not be a video game or a movie…this will be about defending you or your loved ones life and it will exact a cost should you have to take a life. I would bet no one here has ever taken another human life. I have come just short of it and believe me, it keeps you awake at night because most of us are in touch with our souls. Thats why we come here to speak and hear the truth. There are genuine good souls here who are rightfully worried about themselves and their loved ones and we all want to believe we will be fierce warriors when the time comes but what we face now might forever change who you are and how you think about yourself forever. I guess with what we are facing that the best we can hope for is that God will understand us and know that we were not evil and only acted out of love. I am ranting here so I’ll stop. Guns are cool but they were made for one thing. Just ask yourself what would you think about yourself if you had to take another life. Can you live with that?

            • Hi all. OK, here is my two cents. I give this opinion with over 20 years experience in law enforcement and having seen a number of scenarios.

              The best man stopping rounds for a 12 ga are 00 buck (except maybe for slugs). People almost always survive bird shot. BUT, if your family members or guests have the possibilty of being down range, you need a lighter load. I have seen 00 penetrate several walls of drywall where bird shot is stopped by the second wall for the most part (remember, each wall usually has two sides of a stud covered in 3/4 drywall). I would prefer 00 buck at all times and personally use it, but I dont have to worry about the back ground in my home.

              I have 9MM and 45 semi auto handguns for my protection at home. I love both calibers and both have plenty of stopping power when loaded with good ammo. If you are only using ball ammo, the 45 is king. But for the begginer shooter, I recommend a 4 inch 357. I say this because the revolver does not require the maintenance that a semi auto does and does not require weekly or bi-weekly oiling to function properly. I cannot tell you how many PS3 super warriors I have seen have see their guns jam in situation (including trained officers) because they simply dont oil their weapons. The wheel gun will always fire 6 rounds with optional matress lint included. The best was a victim who used an old .38 that the victim loaded ten years earlier and shot one of two armed robbers that came into his business. BTW, the robbers had a semi auto with no oil and the 2nd round stove piped and the weappon jammed. How many people have practiced clearing a stove pipe malfunction? I have seen this. So if you are not going to maintain your weapon, at least have a 357 with either magnums or .38s loaded in them (again depending on penetration needs).

              On all other aspects, I could not agree more. Just my two cents. Once again, great article Mac. Love the site,

            • For what it’s worth, a face-full of bird shot will likely blind, as well as bring so much pain that the attacker will stop.

              His friends however may not. :/


              One note on the .45 – you can get 10-rd extended magazines easily for it (I prefer them, personally). It does however affect weight and balance a little, and an inexperienced shooter will find his rounds going a bit high because of it (though at close range, not enough to worry too much about).

              All that said, one .45 will stop someone a lot faster than 3 9mm rounds will, unless you get very lucky.

            • Usually, when their blood flows, the attackers will flee, so I’d use birdshot if I had it. A shot to the face will stop almost anyone…plus, it hurts like hell! We got some rock salt when I was a kid—that was enough for us.

            • I’m sure there will be a few things we will regret not putting time or effort into, and arms training may be one of them. That’s why we should make sure we have or are building a loyal group that includes those whose spirit drives them to perfect their arms skills. We should be competent, but we can’t all be marksmen.

          • In the doorway, hallway of your home the 15-20′ range with birdshot will start that perp headed to the next state. At very close range it will be enough.

            • Yeah now see that’s what I have been saying for a long time. I have both #4 and 00, with the latter in a managed recoil variety. I’ve gotten so much $#@!!@#$ flak over my choice of #4, not to mention the pistol grip on my 12 gauge pump. I don’t know how many times I’ve had to explain to people that

              A) my house is not a freaking mansion; its very modest in price and size

              B) Those small hallways can be crowded for a grown man with a 12 gauge. I have the pistol grip for ease of maneuver, not because it “looks cool” (yeah, like I give rats ass about looks)

              C) 20 feet? I think my place is 25 feet wide from end to end; it may be LONGER, but there’s not a room in it over 14-15 feet wide

              D) As things are now, #4 will put an intruder down; esp from the much more likely distance of 10 feet away or less

              E) in the event of true SHTF, I’ll either go to 00, or if I’m using #4, I’ll just shoot the crazy little fucker again. And again

              Btw, I’m glad the article also put in a good word for the humble SKS. I’d rather have that rifle and 1,000 rounds of 7.62 than an AR thats still on layaway.

              Fer cryin’ out loud, SHTF will affect us po’ boys too ya know!

            • I respectfully offer that if the argument is about stopping power in the home, you have a “fail” on your hands. They need to beat my 6 foot fence, the three rottweilers, motion lights, cameras, and sensors, plus the rose bushes and hardened windows and doors (all ADT alarmed). Oh, and me and mine, all armed. Meet the MZB’s OUTSIDE and as far away from your loved ones etc. as possible. Drop a tree or two 2 miles down your country road, or drop a little bridge etc. Once the S hits the F, all bets are off… what you’ve got is what you’ve got. Play the “power shut off…right…NOW!” game. How do you do???

            • Beware of birdshot, especially during the winter. It’s hard enough for birdshot to penetrate to a vital organ and a heavy winter coat makes it darn near impossible.

              When it comes to guns, I started out as a pistol-only-guy and didn’t know sh!t about shotguns or long guns. When I started prepping, I bought a Mossberg 590A1 and did some research on WHAT I should put in it for home defense. Long story short, there was some good info I found online. The site recommended #1 buckshot. Penetrates enough to hit vital organs and minimizes the risk of over penetration (as opposed to 00 buck). It all seemed a bit nuanced to me and #1 buck is a helluva lot harder to find than 00 buck, but that was the recommendation.

              I know quite a bit more about shotguns now than I did prior to prepping, but I’m still no expert. Dissenting opinions welcome. If anyone wants the link, I can dig the article out of my safe.


          • DD,I was squirrel hunting many years ago and had a young inquisitive doe walk up to me as I was seated on the ground at the base of a big oak. I tried to “shoo” her away and it worked briefly but she kept coming back, cupping her ears at me, bobbing her head trying to figure out what I was. Finally tired of being bothered, I upped and shot her in the face with a load of #6 shot from my twelve gauge. The deer was about thirty feet away and she went in a pile and never moved. I guessed her live weight at about 80 lbs. I glad she wasn’t no bigger cause I had quite a ways to drag her to get out to the field and get the truck to her. Ain’t nothing wrong with bird shot. If they need a second one give it to ’em. Now that being said, one of my favorite home defense/zombie firearms is a 870 Rem, 20 gauge. The following modifications has been made:

            -Stock: (wooden) 1.5 inches in length removed. (better cheek weld)Excellent when wearing heavy clothing.
            -Magazine: An extender tube to give me six rounds over the normal four.
            -Side saddle shell holder which hold four more shells attached to the receiver. An additional four shell elastic holder that slips over the stock.
            -Finish: Cammo rattle can spray paint ( looks damn good if I have to say so myself).
            -Loads: #3 buck in the mag and one in the chamber makes seven rounds. Four slugs on the receiver holder and four more #3 buck on the stock holder.
            -Barrel: 20 inch smoothbore with rifle sights.
            This shotgun can be handled by my entire family easily. I always carry this particular shotgun along with a singleshot 20 gauge scoped shotgun when I hunt from a deer stand. Both are extremely accurate with the same slug. The scoped shot gun is used for anything out passed 100 yds throught the trees. The pump is used for 50 yds and in when I have a string of deer coming to me. I have on two occasions used the pump to put 4-5 of them down at a time. The major point I’m trying to make is “MISSION DRIVES EQUIPMENT”. There is no perfect “one gun”. Some might cross over into a small area but nothing I would bet my life on. This also pertains to ammo. In a dim hallway, with a twelve gauge and several number six, I could kill and/or fuck a lot of people’s day up. Out in the field @ fifty yards, not so much. Out in an open field it would either fall to an AK, AR .556/7.62, FN/FAL, or HK variant. Like I say Mission drives equipment or “What are you going to use it for”.

            All right I’m gonna take out these preacher’s teeth and leave you all alone. Good night.

            • poacher scum , you suck

            • How do you know he poached that doe???

              In alot of states squirrel and deer season conincide…you shouldn’t cast insults until you now the facts.

            • P-o-p
              I hear ya a pellet gun can take down a lion, in my opinion I will use bullets made to stop men when involved in this scenario and ill take my shot out on the duck hunt. If people are really worried about their dry wall in a home invasion they already lost the fight. As a defense instructor I’d be fired if I endorsed shot for self defense, as a emt I can attest it simply will not stop a man with any resonable assurance, there is a reason for self defense rounds and I’ll kindly leave mine racked and ready where they are, to each is own and somethings better than nothing, best of luck to everyone with whatever they may have!

            • high desert livin, thats right! I like my deer and turkeys like my eggs….poached. They ain’t Your deer sunshine. They belong to GOD!

            • Im sure jesus would take out 4 to 5 deer w/ a pump shotty . You sir make my point for me . good day.

            • high and mighty desert livin. I’ll still be eating good while you are sucking on your fingers.

            • Actually I take a elk, and a deer most every year.As well as a flock of good layers,and a very large garden.My family and I eat quite well thank you very much. Dont get me wrong when the ballon goes up hunting season is 365/24/7 but until then…..

            • I’m sorry to read that you felt it necessary and deserved to shoot and kill that deer. Were there any other options that you might have considered?

            • P.S. I hunt grouse.

          • Birdshot is fine for the hallway or door of the bedroom. Another advantage is birdshot will not penetrate the walls, keeping your wiring, plumbing, and the neighbors, safe from injury.

            • Exactly.

              That’s the main reason to use it instead of buckshot.

              Yes, 00 buck is going to a hurt the bad guy a lot more than #4 birdshot – no doubt. However, there is also a “decent” chance of it passing through an interior wall or two(depending on what your walls are made of).

              That said, if you hit the bad guy in the chest with #4 birdshot and he keeps coming at you…you are in big, big trouble…because he’s probably not human.

            • Birdshot is fine for BIRDS, not hard core criminals. As somebody else said a thick coat can stop or slow birdshot. It is a fight for life, not a slap in the face. Know where everybody is in the house, and use buck shot. Of coarse a load of birdshot in the face would cause a perp problems, but if he has a gun in his hand, he might flinch and touch off a round or 2.

              IMO, better yet a 5.56 round, or several. Some sp rounds penetrate less than a 9mm.

              Multiple hits are what causes a target to stop. The 5.56 has low recoil so the wife can use it easily, ect.

              A pump shotty is easy to short stroke during high stress, causing a jam. Nobody would want a pump AR so why a pump shotty?

            • Birdshot will not penetrate a wall……. pretty good choice! I like Tactical Grenade rounds from Crossfire Ammunition. They are made from Frangible HP’s by SinterFire. They will not penetrate a wall, AND they blow a great big hole! The 45 blows a 6 inch hole. The 40 blows a 5 inch hole. The 9mm blows a 4 inch hole. Even the 380 blows a 3 3/4 inch hole! By now you get my drift….. Crossfire manufactures and sells these rounds by the thousands at gun shows, gun shops, and on line. They are the most popular defense round we have ever seen. Shoot a pineapple with any one – …. When you shoot a pineapple it explodes. Other HP’s will not do that! Amazing stopping power. See for yourself!

          • I can say from first hand trials that trap and game shot (specificity Centurion 2 3/4″ 12G #8 hard shot @ 1400fps) at 7-10 yards will not penetrate the 2mm laminate on laminated plywood. It probably will not stop a human, but it also won’t exit most homes unless shot through a window.

            This article overall is not very good. I would love to know where the writer got her ballistic data for pistol calibers. As Massad Ayoob points out in “Gunfight Survival” the 9mm Cor-Bon is “Probably the single most likely round to stop a fight with one shot solid center hit.”

            If you wanna go deep into firearms theory I would highly recomend everyone check out Gunfight Sutvival: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18rqeJ2ClyU

            • Them zio rabbi’s Kosher taxes we ALL pay on 99% of All we use or consume is most likely how their pension funds got too big to fail. Minus of course the hundreds of billions of$$$$ they skim off to use for nation wrecker swindles, and revolutionairy wars all over the planet they swindle and cause to occure.

              Self defence Hint! Youse who use Raid bug spray instead of pepper sprays Aim for their Long Beards! But Light bug spray on Fire prior to use on beards!

              Then toss em into the Lake of Fire!..(after the Lord passes sentence on em of course).

              Of Over 300 orgs. Just in america alone! By Far, B’nai B’rith is the most worst of All. Pure Evil!

          • Actually, you can cut any shotgun shell and make it a slug, also you can wax bird shot too. Back in the old days Americans became very ingenious when it came to filling their plate.

          • The birdshot you have has much more stopping power than the buckshot you wanted to buy.

          • #4 bird shot will penetrate up to 6″ if I remember correctly which will stop 99% of most home intruders.

            • I will always keep my pump shotgun by the door with the first round to be chambered, # 7 bird shot. I want this for varmits, rabid animals, stray dogs, etc. In a “total collapse” situation, the first trespassers will most likely be the traveling gypsy types, just looking for a nice place to intrude upon or holdout for a little while. There will most likely be children with them. I’m not into killing people in front of children, so they will get an official notice of warning to leave immediately. If they persist, my shotgun w/ # 7 will then do the talking. The next round will be more serious and the third will be 000 Buckshot. Then the magnum heavy stuff will come out. I won’t come out my door with guns a blazing at every trespasser; but I won’t be perceived as weak so that they may leave and then think it is OK to come back later.

        • As we get ready to seize back our lives, remember this—NOBODY has a right to deny you the necessities of life. When it comes time to rebuild after SHTF, remember the corollaries—NEVER allow government to tax the necessities of life (food, water, land, fuel, home, health). NEVER allow government to have a monopoly on the tools of coercion. Because government is most prone to abuse force, government must be denied weapons that are denied to the people. NEVER allow government secrecy. NEVER allow usury. NEVER allow private groups to control money.


          • You are quite correct JQP. Who has proven time and again that they will use violence to get their way? Government. Who kills former allies? Government. Who murders innocents via remote control (and even pats itself on the back about it)? Government. Who routinely kills citizens due to mistaken identity, poor judegment, Excessive force? Government. Who thinks that you (with no supporting evidence, just opinion) are too irresponsible to be armed? Government. This same government is guilty of what they accuse us of. It has ceased to be legitimate. It doesn’t enforce it’s rules on itself, only the citizens. If we did what govt did, we’d be executed. When govt does it, they are “protecting” us. There are 2 classes, political class and the rest of us. One lives as a parasite on the ass of the other. Lets starve the parasite before it kills the host. Don’t vote. If no one showed up to vote, the system would fall flat. Your civic duty is not to support these self serving criminals. Disengage from the farce. Voting just supports the status quo. Romney won’t change anything. Obama won’t change anything. They are mere figureheads.

          • JQP: And Force All of them Duel Citizens to Choose ONE nation they will be 100% Loyal to! If they desire to remain loyal to their shithole crimial enterprize in mid east(isreal) BOOT THEM OUT!

            And make new nationwide laws that 100% BAN ALL Forms of Kommies Period. Kommies=Evil..No bs=no debates-No Dice!

            All Kommies get the fuck OUT! and take at least one or more “parrasitic Tribe” fellow travlers with them on exit!

            All them kommie libs has plenty other nations who are kommie based to exit to.No excuses-No deals! GET OUT! and Stay Out!…..Or face our fireing squads!

        • Any gun will work for the standard intruder. Nothing will stop the corp military and police when it comes calling. A small group of looters will run away when the first shot is fired.

          The most important prep, as far as firearms go, is preparing yourself to shoot first and ask questions later. If your decision is not made long before they show up, it will be too late.

          When soldiers and police are confiscating guns and invading homes to do so, there is no more law. When you see them at your neighbors house, make amends with the Lord and be prepared to start shooting as soon as you can get a good shot off at them.

          Maybe you can take one or two out before they get you. It may save someone else down the road, or make them think twice about what they are doing to their country and the world.

          • One thing they better remember..if they come in..they might not leave

            I’ll welcome them in..maybe even have soup and crackers for them, and a warm cup of tea

            but they wont leave, and not because they they will be enjoying themselfs.

            • VRF, I know you have more sense than that.

              NEVER EVER NEVER let an agent of the corp into your home, for any reason, at any time. Not today, and certainly not when the goons go into attack mode.

              If they have a “warrant”, which would be nonjudicial on it’s face, make them kick the door down. If they say they have a warrant and they don’t kick the door down within one minute of the first knock, they are lying.

              The front door of your home is the last line they will not cross. Never answer the door. Never speak to them from inside. They will leave.

            • you are right GC..my reply was kinda toungue in cheak..but if they do decide to bust down my door illegally..it will be a mistake they should be made to regret

            • VRF, I agree with GC, never let them in. As far as running as plan A; eventually you’ll have to make a stand. Make it where you know the area better than the opposition. Basically, make them run for cover and put them on the run. The corp/gov’t personnel are not taught retreat and defensive tactics. And if you make a stand, you have the opportunity to inspire others. Don’t fear death as much as fear living in bondage.
              Remember, shoot low (you’ll wound more than you’ll kill with their chest and head protection).

          • I will never engage a squad with 7.62 or 556 long rifles

            never mind an mraptor with a 50 cal turret

            all bets are off..period

            unless you wanna die a quick death..

            and leave your loved ones to suffer the same result

            best bet

            run like a mf and don’t engage..


            • This is also a great tactic believe it or not..GTFO run like the wind..swing around thier flank and bust their ass from behind..
              or at least take note of what you are dealing with, and maybe after they think everythings ok..light em up when they come back out

            • Posse ~ Run like a mofo is my personal Plan A – my goal is to have me and my kid gone before “they” ever arrive.

              I’m not saying that I won’t do everything I can to defend us but that is if I have no option for retreat. I don’t care if I sound like a chicken – the survival of my child is my #1 priority.

            • Daisy there is nothing wrong with that plan. That is one in itself. One should not engage in a losing battle for no reason. There out there but just to fight to fight is not one of them

            • @ possee: To me running only prolongs the inevitable. Where you going to run to, you going to come back home, if not then you are a refugee, no longer FREE, and at the mercy of others. For me and mind we make the stand right there, take some with us and WE WILL BE STANDING TALL AND FREE IF WE GO DROWN!

            • He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day!

          • God’s Creation: Maybe you need to get yourself a calculator friend. There are a minimum of 80,000,000, (yes 80 million), gun owners in this country. There are currently less than 3,000,000 (3 Million) military personnel; that’s all active duty and reserve, and a large percentage are overseas. Add to than a little less than 1,000,000 (1 Million) LEOs at all levels; federal, state, and local. Let’s see that adds up to just under 4,000,000 (4 million) folks whom you believe will come and take away all of our guns, is that right? That’s a ratio of 4:80, or as any good math teacher would tell you, reduced to 1:20. Now for arguements sake lets say that 80% of current gun owners get scared and just turn in their weapons. That still leaves 16,000,000 hard core gun owners vs 4,000,000 cops and soldiers, many of whom are specialists, not in combat arms. That’s still 1:4 odds and now these folks are going to go door-to-door in the 5th largest country in the world? Since there is no way to know who has guns, TPTB would have to go and kick in around 120,000,000 doors, just to be sure. That would literally take years and years, and the attrition rate would be horrendous. TPTB would run out of cops and soldiers long before the search for guns was over. This fear of yours is mathematically unsound my friend. Besides, TPTB are just about out of money to pay these folks in the next couple of years. Your problem, my problem, will be roving gangs that have had military, or military style training, like the drug cartels. Caching some preps off-site is a way of surviving in the event you need to evacuate because of superior numbers. Many of us may end up being resistance fighters, and those are the hardest folks to defeat.

            • They are going to gas us. That is what I would do with a sleeping or nerve agent.

            • G8,

              You forgot to add in a million or so heavily armed foreign troops that will shoot us just for the thrill and a bonus check.

              There is also this thing called gun registration, and many people are registered so it will be easy to find them and their guns. They may go door to door with such a list, although I am not on it.

              But here is where your argument falls woefully short

              “””Besides, TPTB are just about out of money to pay these folks in the next couple of years”””

              These are the guys who print the money. TPTB will not run out of money because they have it all, and a license to print more if that is not enough. How else do you think they have purchased every government on earth, and many of the citizens of every country? They will not run out of money, they will make you run out of what you think is money.

              I would like to think they will never go nuts and try to disarm the People going door to door, and I would like to think the People would not comply and instead use the guns for their intended purpose.

              But everything indicates that the PTB are doing whatever they can start a war against American Citizens. How many gun owners are prepared to kill and die in that war against the corp?

              Most probably are not capable, and especially if they don’t start thinking about it until the war is at their door.

              That was the point of my advice to prepare yourself to shoot first now, long before the decision is forced upon you. Whether or not they ever try to confiscate guns door to door is not really important. It is whether you are prepared for the possibility that will make the difference.

            • good post!

            • God’s Creation: Your argument fails on many points. Point One: Just printing more money won’t make folks wealthy, it makes them poorer by diluting it’s buying power. It’s called hyperinflation and more than 50 nations since WWI have gone through what we are just now beginning to. Everyone goes broke with baskets and wheelbarrels fulls of worthless currency. Farms, stores, and other enterprises go out of business, very few people produce goods and services under these circumstances. The economy always collapses and all services stop and there is always large scale desertions from the military. Our government doesn’t have anything else beside its “Full Faith and Credit” bullshit backing the FRNs. Barter would quickly replace the wothless notes as currency and then what would the government use? You’ll probably say food, power and water. Well it take most of the troops from the entire planet to guard all of the major power and water plants, large scale farms, food distribution centers, not to mention the highways, railways, and airports for transporting food and other goods. Since that would take tens of millions of troops to do so, who’s going to have time to go door-to-door looking for guns and sending people to FEMA camps? The numbers don’t add up. Point Two: it’s obvious you never served in the military, I did. In all the training bases I’ve been to there were always foreign troops there. I have been in the same barracks with troops from asia, europe, and the middle east. Do you know why that was and why it continues to this day? Because some are our allies and we all need to be on the same training page and some are here because their countires have bought one or more types of our very expensive weapons systems and they send thier troops to train along side ours on how to repair them. And we are also in their countries doing exercises with them and having our trained technicians working along side theirs. It works both ways my friend. Other Points: As to how many Americans would have the courage to fire on someone invading their homes is yet to be seen. Perhaps only a few at first but then the anger would grow and so would the resistance. JWR’s book “Patriots” isn’t too far off the mark, it would take years even if foreign troops worked along side ours in some evil plot to enslave America. Guerrilla fighters always have an advantage over convention troops in choosing the time and place for battle. Many of us have served in the military and are still willing to defend our country. I’ve also been and LEO. No, I’ve never shot anyone but I’ve had to pull my sidearm and I was fully prepared to use it and I still am. Would I be scared, of course, but I won’t be a slave or prisoner in my own country. And we’d have lots of help because most of our unconventional warefare types (Rangers, SF, SEALS, and RECON) would join in defending America agaisnt any tyranny, even from our own government; they all hate bullies. The whole idea is just rediculous, but it makes for good books and movies. Hat tip to “Patriots” and the original “Red Dawn”.

            • Does anyone really know what is in all those National Guard “armories” spread across the USA?

            • G8,

              “””Everyone goes broke with baskets and wheelbarrels fulls of worthless currency””

              Everyone except those who issue the currency. They have already traded it to us suckers for all the gold they could ever need, and they are the ones who will issue the new currency that you will be forced to use, or should I say allowed to use under the conditions they set forth. Hyperinflation wipes you out, not the owners of the printing press. If it wiped them out, it would never happen.

              As for the rest, the atmosphere in this country is different now. The corp is openly planning for mass civil unrest, and doing whatever it can do to make it happen. They no longer bother to hide their crimes. There is no more law. The foreign troops that are here now, as well as the US military at their sides, is training to put us down under the UN flag. The military admits to the existence of “reeducation camps” for people like us.

              Once the civil unrest has gone on for a while, maybe two years or more, and most gun owners would have shot all the bullets they had with no money to replenish the stock, and no bullets to buy if you have the money. It would be quite easy for the corp to seize all the empty guns. Only then will you see the new currency, when there are no more bullets to buy with it.

              While there are at least 80 million gun owners, there may only be about 5 million that are prepared to survive what is coming and 75 million that have no idea it is coming. Those 75 million have very few bullets for their guns, and even less desire to use them.

              I agree that guerrilla fighting is the only chance the people have. The militia groups will be the first ones attacked and extinguished. But the resistance fighters will be far out manned and outgunned. They will be attacked from afar by drones and snipers. If you put down a couple before they get you, there are many more waiting to take their place.

              The PTB have a much longer time scale to execute their plans than the average man can think about. They plan in 50 and 100 year spans. They will not come out tomorrow and say they are confiscating guns.

              Instead, they will use the next 20 years to create economic havoc and further propagandize the masses of ignorant sheep that guns are bad through the control of the corporate media. They will destroy the currency and the economies and watch the mass of sheep kill each other from a distance, disarming themselves by running out of bullets in effort to protect their property.

              Only after we have destroyed ourselves will they come in and clean up the mess and take the empty guns, posing as the saviors of the world. All you have to do to benefit is take the chip.

              In some areas, they WILL try to take the guns, but I doubt it will be a country wide affair. If you have a gun in or near a major city, they will probably lock the cities down, wait a few weeks or months, and then go get the guns when they are likely to be empty and owned by desperate and hungry people.

              The PTB will never go broke, and they will most likely achieve their goals of disarming all but their own enforcers.

              Our best hope is for a massive EMP strike that shuts down ALL electronics in existence, worldwide. Like on the Star Trek movie when Kirk took the ship into the nebula when fighting Khan, even though his sensors would no longer work. Checkov? questioned the move and Spock said, “Sauce for the goose Mr. Checkov. Alas, the odds would be even”.

              The people are so far gone intellectually and spiritually, and the corp maintains the power of communication needed to keep it that way, that I can not really see success coming any other way.

              We may resist, but we are so technologically challenged and out gunned, that we need a big equalizing event to shut down the machine before we can dismantle it.

              Unless that happens, don’t waste your bullets until a UN uniform is in sight. Then prepare to make the ultimate sacrifice for freedom. We may not win, but we should at least go down fighting.

            • At one time we could fight a fare fight but I am concerned they will hit us with drones from high in the sky when the shit hits the fan. Each of us who are prepared to stand our ground need to understand that this is a very real possibility. When it starts I’ll just say a quick prayer and then get the party started!

          • Question…Why wait for them to come to you??? Sun-Tzu was correct that it is better to fight them on your terms. Don’t wait until they have overwhelming force. GO To THEM. Scary, I know, but true…

            • That is what the people must do. You will know it is time when the UN flags are visible on the streets of the Republic.

            • Amen,
              The battle always won, is the battle not fought…

              1. Pick your battles.
              2. Offense and surprise is the only way to defeat LEO.
              LEO wants you on defense, its the only real battle they know how to fight.

              Army or FED? Withdraw, hide, flank, return to 1.
              As far as zombies, you cannot beat the stopping power of the old reliable; 1911 .45 ACP

              Defense in depth, learn the art of Punji, tanglefoot, boobs and trips. Hell, a yard full of junk will work to slow them down.

            • “Gods Creation says:
              That is what the people must do. You will know it is time when the UN flags are visible on the streets of the Republic.”

              The real signal for me, the one that really truly spooks me, will be when I get on line and the alternative sites that I visit have been shut down and I hear, through the grapevine, that the owners of these sites are either missing, have been placed in a detention center or deceased. When our ability to freely communicate via the internet has been terminated, any form of denial will no longer be an excuse; game on, THIS IS NO DRILL !

            • but what if my terms are on my turf, where i know more about it than they do and have more knowledge of my set ups?

            • L7: Like I have said before in an ambush you charge it throw them off balance, I’m with you we need to take to them NOW, don’t wait on them. Force them to shoot first on our terms not theirs. Then the games begin, and we are justified in fighting them.

            • Legion7: Exactly right, we take the fight to them, in a time and place of our choosing, not theirs. It seems that I’ve failed to get through to CG but you and a few others have grasped that concept. One of my military speicalties was an Interrogator for POWs. Once you capture or kill the enemy, you take his weapons, ammo, uniforms and all his papers. There is a wealth of info carried by just about any squad as to who they are, what their larger unit is, where they’re from, where they’re going, what their mission is for today and next week, communications codes and call signs, just a shit load of good stuff that can be used against them. Their weapons, ammo,uniforms, meds, and radios can be used by our forces as a never ending supply chain for any resistance army. And GB is operating under some false belief that all of our soldiers are mindless robots but nothing could be further from the truth. Many Officers and NCOs will desert with their troops to fight on the side of freedom, make no mistake about that.

          • Gods Creation. you speak the Truth, much wisdom in your Words..I am not afraid of the Looter or Gang Banger as Much as The Thugs in uniform!They operate under the color of Law, but when they come to disarm us, all bets are off and it going to be A Free Fire

            Semper Fi

        • I have seen the effects on human beings with rifle, pistol and shotgun. The myth of the shotgun as the best home defense continues with gun shop commandos. They are big weapons, difficult to handle indoors, low ammo capacity, brutal recoil and difficult to reload. They do have decent stopping power. As far as the shotgun having “spread” so you don’t have to be as accurate, this another gun shop commando myth. At indoor distances, the shotgun is in “Zone 1” where the shotload acts as a single prefragmented projectile. Shoot your shotgun with buckshot at 5 yards which is across a room and see what it does. It is esentially a big rifle.

          As far as over penetration, more myths expounded here. See for yourself. Shoot a 1 gallon jug of water with layers of drywall behind it. Shoot it with your shotgun using buckshot, 9mm/.40 S&W/.45 ACP hollowpoint ammo. Lastly shoot with a .223 hollowpoint. Our testing showed that the .223 hollowpoint was the safest indoors.

          If there is any doubt in your mind that a .223 hollowpoint is a manstopper, Email Mac and maybe he will send you the pictures that I sent him.

          Regardless of which weapon platform you chose it should have a dedicated, mounted light such as a Surefire, Streamlight, etc. Target identification under low light conditions is crucial so you don’t shoot your wife, kid, neighbor or dog. It will also blind the bad guy so he can’t see you.

          My go to gun is my M4orgery with 30 round mag, 55 grain hollowpoint ammo, with Surefire and Aimpoint. It is good for inside and outside the ranch house.

          • Red Leader:

            Now that’s a post. Well done. You’ve given me something to chew on.

            An M4 has a 14.5″ barrel, which would make it illegal in some communist states, right? I don’t have that problem, but it might not be an option for everyone here.

            Anyway, thanks again for the post.


            • Mal, it has the 16.25″ barrel, flat top, collapsable stock. That is why I call it an M4orgerey.

              Ask Mac for the pictures if you do not have a weak stomach.



            • A true M4 is a 3 Position SBR. Must be papered everywhere and all auto components must of been made before 1984 for any civilian to have.

              With paper you can make one. Completely legal.

              But in most case with under-trained. Full Auto is a waste and in many chase more danger for the shooter then the target. I Have had many argument with ???? about how they will change their weapons. Why you are just starting over. True if it is Mad max. I will find a Suppressed 10 inch P90 not a PS90. And a MA2 for my truck. Its not going to get there. (IHOPE) Control fire is best. SHot placement better. But controlled fire must be first.

          • RL, I know what you’re saying. I’m not going to worry about shooting through walls/sheetrock. My round of choice for my M-6 is a 62 gr, green-tip which is a light AP round/barrier blind. Those that enter my house univited will be armoured up with Sapi plates included. If I knew that their best personal protection would be a level three vest then maybe a 55 gr, lead soft point would do just as well. I’m sure that their mags will have the SOST round and collateral damage for them will be a non-issue. BTW, I’m a big fan of aimpoint T-1.

            • PO”P: I like the 62gr also, I change rounds for the seasons. 62gr’s Oct-Mar, 55’s the rest, mainly for the clothes being worn by thugs. But I like my M1A 7.62 the best, it’s good from 0-500yds. As for body armor, a hit with 150gr FMJ at 200yds or less with take their breath away in short order. In a life or death battle EVERYTHING IS LEGAL no matter what. After the SHTF I feel to many on here are to worried about taxes, money, house payments, whats legal to have, etc. For me that is the least of my worries, because alot of that sort of thing will be gone. FOR ME MY MAIN WORRY IS STAYING ALIVE AND FREE AS LONG AS I CAN! Thats just an old country hicks way of think’n

            • Good that copperhead. I like the 168 and 175 smks. I got a few different platforms for them. One is a good thousand yarder while the rest are just good battle rifles. I want my country back and I do “whatever it takes to get the fox” to help ensure that that happens.

          • “Shoot your shotgun with buckshot at 5 yards which is across a room and see what it does. It is esentially a big rifle.”

            Buckshot? BUCKSHOT? Buckshot is for distance. Hello? It has the same disadvantages as using a rifle for defense: penetration and distance. Duh!

            The whole advantage of a shotgun is that at a distance of 20 or 30 feet the pattern is not dense enough to go through very many wall thinknesses. 55gr hollow points will mushroom and keep on going unless they hit a stud. (…which is a BIG disadvantage with bit, slow, 45acp ammo.

            You’ve obviously never experimented. First off, if you’re going to use a shotgun as castle defense, you need one with either an improved cylinder choke or just a cylinder bore to get maximum spread. Second, NEVER use buckshot or slugs. Like what was said above, it turns your shotgun into basically a big rifle. Rifles are for distance and penetration, things we’re trying to avoid.

            The advantage of a shotgun is lack of penetration beyond your target. Don’t undermine this by USING HIGHLY PENETRATING AND DISTANCE ENHANCING AMMO! DUH! Use #4. Turkey loads are good and give you some penetration but still not enough unless you’re really close to that wall.

            …and please understand that if you’re my neighbor and you shoot your damned 55gr hollow points and they go through a couple of your walls (and they will) and hit my toddler, I’m going to be pissed. I’m still going to be pissed if a couple pellets of #4s break my window but by the time they to to my place, they won’t kill my toddler under most circumstances. Your 55gr very well could.

            If you want to use a 223 for self defense inside of buildings, you need some special loads. Here is one:

            28gr of 3031 behind a 45gr hornet bullet. A 40gr pill might be better in most instances.

            It goes in. It doesn’t come out. People don’t get up after being shot with something like this. You hit center mass and it will make your aforementioned 1911 look like a slingshot. …and the recoil you guys think is so disadvantageous is almost nonexistent. A 55gr will exit and will continue under most circumstances. I know, I use them. Lighten the bullet and broaden the nose. You get bullet fragmentation upon impact. All energy gets instantly transferred to your target even in narrow areas.

            Here is one for a 9mm:

            6gr Bullseye behind an 88gr hollow point.

            Again: bullet goes in and it never leaves. I’ve run tests on this. If you put two one gallon jungs, one behind the other, and shoot into the first one, the second one will be unharmed, mostly. The first jug, well, you’ve not see hydraulic shock like this before.

            Here is one for a 30-06:

            45gr of 4831 behind a Hornady 90gr XTP

            Its like a flying stick of dynamite. What it does to a gallon jug of water is just obscene. Ever see a pop can filled with water turned into confetti? This one will do it. It will also decapitate a deer or a coyote. Everyone with you when you turn it loose will get grass stains on their chins, including you.

            If you use a single projectile weapon inside, load or use something approaching “frangibles”, otherwise you’re just using a hole punch with a certain amount of hydraulic shock.

            But, regardless of what you use, remember this: after the first shot, you or the target will not be able to hear anything. Even firing a 22 inside can be noisy. You fire something that’s burning 10-50 grs of powder (a 22 burns 2) and you’re talking DEAFNESS for a time.

            Which reminds me: a 10/22 with a 30rd mag might not be a bad choice for castle defense. Its light, easy to handle, almost no recoil, very accurate. Not a big penatrator. I wouldn’t want to face one down. …and then you could shoot game with it too.

            • Net Ranger you are clearly a gun shop commando. I have conducted several experiments with rifle, pistol and shotgun ammo. Try them all with 5/8″ drywall spaced an inch apart. .223 hollow point will fragment and or expand and not penetrate as far as pistol and 00 buck.

              Please name one firearm professional that uses a .22 LR for defense. If you have ever been near a gunfight you would know that it is not live watching TV. They do not stand still and let you shoot them with multiple rounds of .22LR.

              At close range with a shotgun birdshot is zone one. Much further and you get a massive surface wound that will not penetrate far enough to hit vital organs.

              Get out into the field and quit watching so much TV.

            • Gunshop commando? Does that term make you feel superior? I really don’t care. The term means nothing to me. After 40 years of technical reloading experience and many thousands of hours of ballistic research, discussing the subject with most people is like discussing orbital anomalies with preschool attendees. Someone that calls me a “Gunshop Commando” just shoved his intellect and credibility in the toilet and hit the handle. If you expect discourse on an intellegent level, you’re not going to get it using those terms, that is, with most people.

              If there is one thing I’ve learned in my 50 years on this planet its that when it devolves into name calling, the first name callers are usually the ones that have no experience and are looking for an ego boost without the experience to back it up. (Note: That was an intellectual way to say “Shut up. Sit down. Listen.”)

              30 plus years with the 223 alone gives me knowledge and confidence. Mall Ninjas and Gunshop Commandos are terms for the general population. You either know or you don’t. If you know, you try to help people understand. If you don’t, you call them names.

              I fell in love with the 223 and have had multiple guns chambered in that round since 1977. Previously I used a 222 (my first varmint rifle) and the 220 Swift (of which I have several rifles) and 225. Until 1995, I had shot less than 100 rounds of factory loaded ammo for the 223 but had shot several thousands of rounds testing and experimenting. Most of the ammo I bought and shot was to duplicate the load and test variations.

              A 55gr hollow point in a 223 is a fairly broad term. There are some that will fragment. The ones I used to make sure would. Yes, I made my own projectiles, using various materials. (I found thin brass to be a much more effective jacket material than copper…)

              Most .224 bullets in a 55gr hollow point configuration that I buy off the shelf or pre-loaded will not fragment. Depending on the brand used, Pre-loaded ammo with 55gr JHP will mushroom and penetrate multiple walls with enough force to kill you. Just be aware that the jacket material on bullets VARIES GREATLY. How many brands of preloaded ammo did you test? How many different brands of bullets did you test? The brand YOU USED fragmented and didn’t penetrate very far. Do you consistently use only that ammo for your self defense rifles? I sure hope so.

              Now, please tell them the brand of ammo you were using that was loaded with the 55gr hollow point bullets. This way, they can go out and buy the correct ammo. …and so I can check my records to see if I’ve tested them and see if you’re just BSing or actually have done a little testing.

              BTW, if you get to call me Gunshop Commando, can I call you Mall Ninja? In my circle of firearms technical friends, we call people Trigger Yankers because they’ve never actually learned how to shoot. In the IT world we call them lusers (pronounced the same as losers). But, we never call them that to their faces, because they stop listening and get ego-blocked.

              …and while the professionals don’t use 10/22s and 30 round mags, they also don’t have the broad experience and knowledge I have. They have formalised training and marketability. Neither of which helps much when you’re researching things (which they also have never done) and only help marginally during a fire fight. Besides, Ruger probable doesn’t offer cashed backed endorsements for using their 10/22s as self defense implements.

              I’ve moved beyond the “professional” label. I’ve found that “professionals” are “professionals” because they get paid for it. I, on the otherhand, am a scientist. Seeking knowledge the “professionals” would never pursue because it won’t make them extra cash. I’m not seeking cash. I’m seeking knowledge. As soon as some seeps out from under your “Gunshop Commando” derogation, I’ll start listening.

              You really don’t get it with the shotgun do you? You say that you have a massive surface wound. Really? At 5yds? REALLY?

              You do know you can get DIFFERENT shot (pellet) sizes, right? #2 is like BB sized. Personally, I like #4. Just right for enough penetration at 10-20 yards but still not enough to nail your neighbor’s toddler. At 20ft and down, there is little difference between birdshot (#2 to #12) and a slug. Its in such a tight formation. You said so yourself. …and I’ve tested it.

              Wow. I thought you knew but when you said that, I realized that you don’t. I can’t do it now but I’ll do a full spread (pun intended) on shotgun ammo. Maybe Mac will put it up here so you and others can learn how it all really works.

      2. The rule of thumb I use is: you have to fire 10,000 rounds before you are qualified to use a specific firearm.

        • 12ga Shotgun is point and shoot. 10,000 rounds not required.

          • Spoken like a man who never learned how easy it is to miss with a shotgun.

            • Well, I guess I’ve missed a few ducks… :o)

              But I’ve certainly never missed anything within 12 yards.

          • Not really point and shoot. That’s a myth that needs to be debunked. At close range (as in across your living room) yards) the shot load hasn’t spread very much, so you still have to aim it. At longer ranges (40 yards) the shot load will have spread out to maybe 36″ diameter, but by that time the remaining energy isn’t enough to do much damage to a large target, unless you’re shooting 00 or 000 buckshot. It IS true that an ounce of shot of any size at 1200 fps and 5 yards range will do an awful lot of damage in a S.D. situation. One ounce is a light load in a 12 gauge; it is about twice the weight of a .45 ACP bullet, at 200 fps or so higher velocity.

            • For good measure I’ve added a laser/light combo to my 870. It helps to identify targets in low light and no need to look down the sights.

            • The Old Coach

              I have pattered 12 gauge buckshot in couple of riot guns. They have a “sweet spot” starting at about 15 yards (2ft) out to 30 yards (4ft). That weapon “owns” that 15 yard area. As you get past 30 yards with a cylinder bore 20″ bbl that pattern gets real wide. At 40 yards you might catch someone with 2 OO buck out of 9 (God help those to their right and left). If they’re standing sideways and thin they might just fit through the pattern at 40 yards. With baby magnums of 12 pellets you might land 3.

              A riot gun is highly effective, possibly more effective then a sub machine gun in it’s zone. That zone is relatively small but probably in a likely threat range.

            • 12ga. cylinder bore has about a 20″ pattern at 10 meters, full choke about 9″. I cannot take a shot longer than this inside my home. Hollywood perpetuates the “point & shoot” myth about both shotguns and automatic rifles. Neither is a water hose.

            • OC, I’m here to verify all that you said. …and like you, I’ve tested it and found what you said to be right on target. (Pun intended…) Now, if we can just get the kids to actually shoot their shotguns. But, most anyone can level a shotgun and hit a man sized target at 15ft without sighting down the barrel. Just a few practice shots and you’re good to go, minimal aiming required. It is not, however, spreading out much before about 30ft.

              Melvin, above me here has some stats that you can believe. At 30 ft a pattern size of 20″ with a cylinder bore and 9″ with a full choke. Somewhere between that with ImpCyl or Mod chokes.

              Now think of an ounce and a quarter of #2s or #4s for a little enhanced distance. Typical distances inside might be 20ft. If you’re paranoid about wall penetration move up to #7 1/2 or #8 shot. Devastating inside. Ones that get out might break a window or make the dog yelp.

              Someone mentioned body armor. Slugs and buckshot is your only chance here, however, you better have a backup, because, the same reasons that a shotgun is safer in urban areas for lack of penetration using #2 and smaller shot pretty much makes it useless against body armor. It and strong language might be a deterrent. For that, flechettes are the deal in a shotgun, unless the “guest” has a plate carrier. A couple shots to the knees might be better yet. The thighs are pretty big muscles. A few dozen #2 size holes in the thigh means you bleed out pretty quick. Just because someone has body armor doesn’t mean their invincible.

              If its done in Hollywood, its pretty much a good bet that its not really that way. The things they show are just so incredibly stupid. My son and I are big fans of The Walking Dead and Falling Skies, two shows that are heavy on the survivalism but fall very short of really putting anything forth that could be construed as usable if you’re really caught in one of those situations.

              Remember, options are your friends. Keep them handy, be they shotguns, 10/22s, handguns or just a good sharp corn knife or a ball bat.

              Good luck and stay safe.

          • Another Joe, I haven’t shot even 500 rounds out of my 12 gauge or my SKS, but if you or anyone else breaks into my humble abode, you’d better be fucking bulletproof.

          • It does if you want to be a train tactical fighter. 10,000 rounds would be just the beginning of advanced training.

            But for the 99.9% that just buy a “Weapon” shoot it once and put it in the closet. You can not beat the 12 GA period.

            A 12GA and a Carry 38/357 should be in every house period.

          • Spoken like a man who has never done pattern analysis of a fighting shotgun.

            • …or read even the basics about wound ballistics and body armor.

            • Red Leader: In my house I won’t have to shoot more than 20 ft. and with 00 Buck to the the neck and head area, body armor will be irrelevant. In our body armor drill, yeah, I was an LEO for 21 years, it was always two shots to the chest, which will stagger anyone, bodyarmor or not, and a least one to the head. I can get off 3 rounds in under 2 seconds, so unless my uninvited guest has me already sighted in and has begun his trigger pull, It’s Game Over-I win!! The only real down side here is that all of his blood and brain parts could really damage my nice wood floors!

            • Two shots to the chest is very old school and a serious training scar. Shoot until there is no longer a threat.

        • 10,000 rounds is a bit excessive ….if you really think about how many rounds 10,000 is…..thats a bit overkill….no pun intended

          • Confucious say: “man who shoots 10,000 rounds, has no time, no money, and no stash left to protect”. If you’re rich enough to blow through 10K rounds, you probably can afford security.

            • 10000 rounds is not that much it is only 100 100 wally world packs. Yes you should train with the stuff you fight with but on a 12 8 and 6 shot does start the training process.

          • Red Leader: No shit Sherlock, the point is 2 shots to center mass as with any perp and if he doesn’t go down but staggers he’s got armor. The next, and instant, step is AT LEAST 1 to the head; that all takes place in 2 seconds with gun drawn, 3 seconds are allowed with the gun hoslterd. We shoot until the threat is neutralized/stops moving and is no longer a threat. Since we are shooting in a prescribed LEO course of fire I don’t get extra point for more head shots. Besides, I won’t be going for ‘points’ in my home or on the street, just survival. My shot gun has 8-2/34″ 00Buck rounds, 1 in the chamber, and a pistol grip for greater tactical ease. I’m 59 y/o 5’10” at 215 lbs. and I have no problem handling it. It has just a little more kick than my 3″ .357 magnum does shooting with one hand, which I also shoot well with. Smaller or weaker people should choose a lighter weapon they can handle, it all depends upon ones strength and ability/skill-level as to their weapon of choice. The point is there is no “One” perfect weapon. Choose one or two and work with them-often. I can still get 3 shots off with either weapon in under 2 seconds and hit my target at 20 ft.- no problem!

            • Red Leader = Troll with no gun experience

          • Shoot untill it is time to call 911.make certain when cops arrive to take notes/reports, You’re story is the ONLY version cops get!….In other words…Dead perps cant tell cops that You invited perp indiside to make emergncy call for tow tuck or etc!

            A Only wounded perp can cause You to spend rest of life in prison. Especially if You are white and nobody else is.

            Such a situation can also lead to lawsuits and tons of “perps relatives” comming in to join lawsuit from as far away as Zimbabwee!!

            Call 911 Only after perp=dead as door nail. Then:.. I was in Fear for my Life!…Thats your story and you are sticking to it. Cop dont believe it? Ok cop ask the perp what occured!

            PS: True story..I knew a guy in detroit who got B&E’d(home invaded) one nite. he woke to see a black guy in his living room heading towards kids bedroom area.

            My friend grabbed a 20 ga shotgun and soon as he had a clear shot he amed for perps kneecap…Well he did hit the badguys knee. And he was written up as 100% self defense/justified shooting.

            BUT..For years afterwards(5yrs or more when he told me of it) he was always paranoid/scared the permanantly wounded perp wopuld return seeking vengence!

            He later wished he just finished the perp off and could live stress free. You never know what will happen if you only wound a perp. Dead perps do not return for vengence.

            • Angelo M: Not to worry here in Florida where we have the “Stand Your Ground” law. And in my case who do think the cops are going to belive, me a retired LEO, or some shotup scum bag with a weapon and a rap sheet-case closed!

        • @Joe (another) Tell me you’re still not part of the gene pool…….

        • Thats a little excessive ( and expensive )dont ya think ? Crap, if your a good southern reb , you have been shooting from day one that you were big enough to hold one up . If you cant get the hang of it after 100 rounds ………your not going to . just sayin

          Stars and Bars .

        • Cool, Than I guess Ive passed many years ago

      3. Hello SHTFPLAN People;
        I’ve read this site everyday for a long time; and i have ( In My Mind ) a serious question to ask. I’ve never owned a gun in my life; and only shot once a long time ago. This might seem like an extremely stupid question to long time gun owners; but is there any way you can legally get your hands on a gun WITHOUT the gov. knowing about it? The way things are playing out; the Corp. might try and confisgate guns here in the U.S. BEFORE everything goes to crap when the collapse comes about. Any info would be really appreciated. Thanks. P.S. I plan on getting a gun for personal protection within the next few weeks.

        • Dave. Yes there are ways to get a gun without the gov knowing it. Buy from a private owner. No background check. People inherit guns that have been around for awhile and would likely sell you one. Best thing to do is ask around. The coolest gun I own came to me that way. There are grey areas in the gun laws. Don’t knowingly violate the law and buy one on the black market but ask around and you might be suprised.

        • If your not a prohibited person (felon, drug user, wife beater or the like) and your State / City does not prevent private purchases between individuals then your perfectly legal with buying a firearm from a neighbor or similar that is a also a resident of your home state. Federal law allows the sale of firearms (I think below 5 or so a year, maybe less) between individuals. You cannot buy a long arm firearm across state lines from an individual and cannot buy a handgun out of state regardless if it is from a FFL (Federal Firearms Licensed) dealer.

          Check your local laws.

          • There is no restriction anywhere on how many firearms you can buy and sell in the USA Period. Seller must only have a license if they are making a livable income.

            Some states have add on BS rules.

            But beware the ATF uses the paper and many non gun show ways to set you up. Gun shows with a private seller is the best/safest way. Unless you know the seller personally before hand.

            And the seller and buyer MUST be from the same state PERIOD in a private sale.

            • Facebook Page

              “There is no restriction anywhere on how many firearms you can buy and sell in the USA Period”.

              Not true. The BATF (before it became the BATFE) has charged and convicted people with dealing W/O a license specifically because of the volume of guns they sold.

            • It was not the number that got them convicted. It was profit they made. The amount of weapons just got there attention. In my area the atf agents preach one a month and they will leave you alone.
              Ex one man sold 500 guns a year easy. But never showed a profit. One other sold 500 over five years and went on an african safari and bought a harley. He is sitting in fed prison right no

              The law is clear liveable income. But the catch. They always find something else. Remember copone it was post offi e that got him not the murders and all.

        • Dave-

          take a basic pistol and rifle course, safety is your first concern!

        • Try armslist.com. This is an excellent website for private gun sales.

        • Go through the local ads in your area ……you can always find something . If they ask too many questions …..move on to the next guy . This is a good time to buy a gun from an individual , a lot are selling in order to upgrade to something else . Word of mouth is good for leads if your in a gun friendly community .

        • Check state laws on this site: http://www.handgunlaw.us/

          One of many. The NRA site also has good info on laws.

        • uh, well, you see, yeah!!

        • sure dave I will sell you one of mine! what do you want?

        • In 38 states there are no restrictions on private transfer of, say, a 9mm pistol. Privately they’re only slightly more controlled than a rake or a shovel.

          I buy and sell guns all the time and never even know the guys/gals names and its all nice and legal. We call them “paperless transfers”. This is also known as the “gun show loophole” however, its not a loophole at all, ITS THE LAW. (Well, at least its the color of law that the cops follow. Its statutes and codes.)

          Stop in at a local gunshop. Befriend some gun enthusiasts and get yourself something. I recommend starting with a good break action single barrel shotgun. Easy to operate. Cheap to own. Buy a few boxes of shells and go someplace and have some fun. When you get comfortable with that, trade it (or keep it) and get a pump. Put the single barrel away for later use (stash gun or backup?) Do the same with the pump. Mossberg 500s and Remington 870s are everywhere and reasonably priced. Do the same: practice.

          In most states, again, all this can be done “paperless” and legally if you’re not a felon, crazy or under 21.

          The FBI only gets notified of wether you’re buying a handgun or a rifle anyway. The documentation the dealer keeps is SUPPOSED TO BE SHREDDED in 7 years. But, is frankly useless because of the paperless transfers.

          In my state you can literally, legally, buy a gun, shoot it, decide you don’t like it, then sell it the same day. However, it is illegal to be a “straw buyer” as in buying one to immediately sell.

          • 100% Correct as long as you are both residents of that same state. please beware for the ATF sting. Shows are the best for the new to the Private sale world. Don’t just meet someone.

      4. If your the only person prepped in the neighborhood and TSHTF for real you have a problem regardless how many guns you have. The attitude of those with an empty stomach may very well be, “It I can’t have it than either can they”. The next thing you know your burned out of your domain. You better damn sure get some allies even if late in the game. A prepared neighborhood is not as good as a prepared Town and that is not as good as a prepared County or a prepared State.

        It’s a shame we don’t have a prepared Country.

        • I’m with you my brother, and it’s a damn shame it is not like this in a lot more places. If it is possible it is the best way to be prepared.

        • “””It’s a shame we don’t have a prepared Country.”””

          If we had a prepared country we would never need our own preps. Unfortunately, we don’t so better keep getting food built up and bullets to scare off the looters.

        • Bottom line help your neighbor. Things get tight give them some seed and show them how to garden.

          Everyone needs friends and if TSHTF you will need friends more than ever.

        • Exactly, when it comes to zombies, I’m more worried about molotov cocktails than guns. LEO’s/Military are a different story though….

      5. First you need to protect it

      6. That security guard is my hero. He showed the true meaning of gun control. Notice he wasn’t using the “ghetto grip”.

      7. Ms. Pennington, thank you for a top-notch article. The only part of your article i question is not breaking or circumventing any gun laws in an SHTF scenario. Assuming it’s going to be full-blown SHTF with economic collapse, EMP frying the grid, total chaos, no law enforcement available for any purpose, etc., all the rules we live by at this time will go straight out the window. Nobody will be around to enforce anything. Besides, following these gun laws whether everything is stable or in SHTF could cost some good people their lives. In post-SHTF, the only thing that’s going to be relevant is staying alive and if I have to violate anyone’s gun laws to do so, THEN SO BE IT! Everyone has the natural, God-given right to self-defense against ANYONE WHO HAS EVIL INTENTIONS TOWARD THEM! Self-defense is granted by God, not by any manmade government, so government has no legitimate basis to interfere with it. Anyone who forces their way into my home I will only offer them one chance to turn around and get out alive. If the thug makes one wrong move on me, he will be sent straight to hell. Ms. Pennington, I know you mean the best in the world with this article; all I’m saying is when you’re in a one-on-one situation with anyone who wants to harm you, you may not have any choice but to violate some law in order to get yourself and/or your loved ones out of that situation alive. After all, SURVIVAL IS THE NAME OF THE GAME. Take care and keep prepping.

        • All the terrible weapons of war will then be available to the American patriot. Weapons are for hunting tyrants and commies and bears, oh my.

          • Terrible: Shouldn’t that be “Liars, and Tyrants, and Bankers, Oh My” ?

      8. I prefer Bantam 500 20-gauge youth-sized shotguns. Buckshot in the face is the best way to stop an attacker. It’s also a lot more stopping power in the chest than a .22. A .22 is weak. It doesn’t do much. The intruder can still kill you.

        • Shotguns can miss too.

          Now repeat after me, “I will always shoot center mass. I will always shoot center mass.”


          • I feel sorrow for those who miss with shotguns. I’m testing my family now to determine if we have that gene. None detected so far. ;o)

            20ga is very nice. Nice tradeoff between weight and power. I like the .410 as well. I’ve killed many a 300lbs hog with a .410 slug, and assortment of other critters as well. Certainly my favorite gun for killing Cottonmouth water moccasins.

            I’m thinking I should buy a Taurus Judge .410/45. A face full of .410 buckshot will ruin your day right quick.

      9. Dave, welcome aboard and do you due diligence. On you question about buying a gun without govt. knowing about it, depending on the state you live in, you can currently do a private transaction with a gun owner who has a weapon for sale, but check your state’s laws first. Gun shows are a great place to get a gun in a private deal. There’s also a lot of newspapers that still allow guns to be advertised in their classified section. i would start out with a .22 pistol, THE WAY TO LEARN ABOUT FIREARMS! the recoil is little to none at all, the ammo was designed for accuracy and can be found anywhere cheap. You can practice with .22lr and stockpile it cheaper than anything else out there. Also it can be used as a defensive round if you have nothing else available. Good luck in your prepping and get some kind of gun ASAP; looks like time is running short.

      10. I choose gun. Gun beats no gun, most of the time at least. It sure as hell beats cowering in fear as your door is beaten down.

        • Fastest way I’ve ever found to stop beating at my front door is to rack my 12 gauge shotgun loading one into the chamber. It’s quite common for that beating to subside very suddenly. :o)

      11. Mac, thanks for publishing article. Congrats on the site by the way. I could not help but notice the “19” comments from 2009 through 2012 on the original post. This post will most likely have 200 comments by 9/22/12. Great job of “waking the people up”! I look forward to the endless opinions in the coming hours.

      12. here is my 2 cents….i think one of the ideal ways to store ammo is in large whey protein type containers with a screw on lid and then place dessicant bags inside in which i acquire for free at work and you can occassionally place the dessicant bags in the oven and dry them to be reused and to make certain they still have absorbent properties…..thats what i do !!

      13. Now we’re talking.
        Somewhere along the line I came across a video that had an test, showing the penetration of different calibers of bullets fired into homes. Boy, was that ever an eye opener. They done one round at a time and the fragmentation of different articles was beyond belief.
        Consider about 10 to 15 rounds coming through your wall all at once with rock frgments and that is scary. The test home was built of cinderblock, some wood frame and household furniture. They used handgun ammunition but as they moved to 7.62/rifle, the flying debris was amazing. Unless you use concrete or sand bags to fortify your home, you better have something more than the clothes you are wearing now. A steel pot M1 helmet, a good set of goggles and a vietnam era flak jacket is the min.

        • Yes they shot a 50 cal. round. All I can say you better run.

      14. The author does give some good examples of handguns to consider for home defense. The best gun for an individual is one they can handle comfortably, confidently, and accurately. I suggest if at all possible to handle/shoot a particular handgun that you might be interested in prior to purchase. Go with a friend or family member that owns a hand gun or several, and test fire some to see if you are comfortable. Above all….take a safety course prior to purchasing one and know your state laws regarding the use of one in self defense. Of course during a shtf scenario, all bets are off.

      15. Buy a few rolls of barbed wire. If tshtf it might come in handy

        • So true! Can’t you just picture some a$$ charging thru the bushes, only to have his baggy pants snag in the wire? Face, meet ground.


          • Sneakers meet simplex nails. Metal base type.

            • LOL like in deathwish 3

        • have you ever seen the nat geo shows where up in canada the pound long spike though boards and lay them on door steps to stop bears from getting in? maybe put some slightly buried in any weak perimeter areas?

          • Mark: Keep in mind most of not all states has severe laws/penaltys for any type “Booby Traps” you can think of, if it can cause serious injury or death.

            Main reason is, what if you aint home and house is on fire?…Somebody calls fire dept and first fireman into home is whacked by a 12 ga with a string tied to trigger type trap.

            Or when cops has a right to enter even without warrents if cop believes some person inside crib is in mortal danger etc.

            Such a scenario and You get charged with pre meditated Murder!…Not too swell eh. Any type bobby traps other than for grizleys in alaska are likely illeagle. I just wanted to alert you and others to this as a consideration is all.

            • AM: Use BT’s only after the SHTF, then everything is game for me.

            • Angelo, I know what you’re saying and I agree, however, we’re talking times when cops and firemen WILL NOT EVEN EXIST.

              But, regardless, there are numerous examples of the booby trapper becoming his own booby trappee along with unintended victims.

              Barbed wire fiddle string tight between trees in the woods about 12″ off the ground will slow them down. Anybody have any recommendations on this?

              Loosely stringing barbed wire in any kind of bushes so its concealed will really mess with people that try to cut through the bushes, especially at night. Nobody ever died from barbed wire but you sure do get chopped up! It really screws with vehicles too. Put loosely on paths and such, any rubber tired machine not designed for the rough gets into all kinds of trouble. Track machines and larger rubber tired machines don’t pay much attention to it but standard road vehicle get the crap torn from them, brake lines, wires, control cables, etc. Under the right condition it will even slice a tire.

      16. Over 1600 people reading this article and only 17 comments. One being a question. Now is the time. You might not get a second chance.

        Good article, Mac. Did not see the first one.

      17. I feel fortunate to live in an “out of the way” area. The few neighbors are all well known and friends.EVERYONE is well armed and knows how to use them (hunters mostly). I don’t look for many problems from outsiders except perhaps the Amish will have their cows poached.It’s good to be armed but you can’t eat lead. Well, I guess you can, but you don’t want to be on that side of my gun.

      18. Ma has her a AR-15,CZ-75 compact, and a 500. Pa has a M1A, Kimber CDP Pro, and a 500. Back up, the wife has a Taurus 22 Mag 2″, I have SP101 3″. Down deep 32 kel tec, and sig 238 380. For special occasion’s a nice M77 in 308 with a Sheperd 3×9, 2 M-1’s in 06-308 with AP’s,I like VZ-58 instead of the AK and thats just a few laying around. Ammo, Min 5,000 each, some more. We like the #4 buck in 12ga., has 27 22cal balls. Oh and we have alot of surprise’s for party crasher’s. Thats just us.

        • I’m a big fan of #4 buck for home defense as well.

      19. Any such article that ignores the REVOLVER as a handgun option isn’t worth reading. A good double-action .357 is more powerful than any of the auto cartridges, utterly jam-proof, and much, much easier for a novice to learn. Requires less maintenance, too. If you want to complain about having only six rounds, use a New York Reload, (another revolver). Besides, a pistol is only necessary until you can fight your way to a rifle. (Jeff Cooper?)

        • This is fact. I carry. LW357 for around the house and shop. Glock 10mm and a back up everywhere else. Om the road an ar is always close. and at home everything from a 22 to a 50 is closer. But I rely on my little magnum for everything. It is always there.

        • love me some “wheel guns”..my 44 wwill make my day, and my 357 is a great side kick

        • Definitely good advice…
          This is what I get novices, or women folk who are scared of it and don’t want to learn cleaning and dis-assembly. If you don’t want to learn to clean it, don’t buy it.

          • Or buy a glock.

        • Without extra loaded magazines, a semi auto is about as fast to reload as a cap and ball revolver.

      20. Also take some hollow points and mix up a blend of garlic, rincin, and other posions, put some inside hollow point, then seal with wax.

        • Good idea indeed, but I’ll go a step farther. Just dip those hollow-points in feces….makes for a nasty infection quickly.

          • The heat from the cartridge firing negates that. So all you have is a smelly gun where the round was in the magazine. Holster will stink too.

          • Naw man…that’s what you coat the tips of your punji sticks with…

        • wubba! sounds like any fucker trying to rain on your parade will be in for one hell of shock

      21. It’s funny I work for http://www.guardnow.com and I see the reason we need firearm protection on a daily basis. It’s really not the gun that is hurting people its the individuals.Guns help protect us from criminals.

        • Funny how gun makers market their product for self-defense. Self-defense from what? From people who have guns. It seems gun makers can have their cake and eat it too. They sell their product to “law abiding” citizens after preying on their fears, but they also profit from criminals who use thier product while the makers do nothing or very little to minimize their products being used illegally. What a racket. And you guys criticize the banksters! Gun and ammo makers are leading you around by the nose and you are enjoying every minute of it as they laugh all the way to the bank with your money.

          • Joenc: If you are ever lucky enough to meet a Detroit Biker buddy of mine, Big Mike aka the “DOOR”..He Loves to come face to face with your type in say a bar situation on a fri nite scenario when you begin to spout off and spew crap!

            If you get lucky and sit within ear shot hes the type guy who will smack the living crap out of you. And nobody else in the bar will care!…They likely will applaud Mikey!

            PS: hes called the “Door” because when he stands in the entranceway of Any size doorway, he takes up 99% of that area. Top to bottom & side to side. Bench presses 400+lbs, and really has a short fuse when deals with assholes such as you seem to be.

            You sound like them wives who desperatly need a good snout smack now and then…..If you ever do meet up with big mikey, I hope he phones me with details after the event!

      22. I’ve always enjoyed firearms, collecting, shooting, and to be hones for 45 years of my life I never imagined they’d ever be anything but – collected and shot for hunting or fun. Now I can see the necessity in the future; but I can still say emphatically its a last resort nothing else. Once you start shooting the chances of a positive outcome deminish greatly.

        That said my 338 Lupau is going to leave a mark.

      23. “Standard NATO round 7.62×39” is inaccurate. SKS/AK rifles use that cartridge but it’s Russian/Soviet, not NATO. The 7.62 NATO round is 7.62×51

        • Nato rounds 5.56×45/.223 and 7.62×51 or 308, I believe.
          Soviet block was 7.62×39 SKS and AK and the 7.62×54 for the Dragonov sniper rifle. Commercial rounds of the 7.62×39 are sloppy in Ak’s but have better performance in the SKS. Four inches more of barrel length. If you ever get to find steel core 7.62×39 you will find it more accurate.
          And it not considered armor piercing because the core is of a lighter metal hardness to be armor piercing.

          • Wanted to add that some 9×19 nato rounds are 1200 feet per sec. instead of 1050 ft per sec. for sub machine gun use. Might damage a pistol not engineneered for the higher pressure.

        • This oversight has been corrected. thanks! Mac

          • Wasn’t trying to me “that guy” – just wanted to make sure the details were accurate for anyone not highly experienced with firearms. Thanks for an excellent article.

        • 7.62×39 in accurate ? i can group them in a 5 inch target at 100yds….this is spam can ammo…i do have a scope though not iron sights

      24. Anyone else getting tired of worrying about the end of world? I feel like King Solomon in Ecclesiastes sometimes.

        • Everybody needs a hobby, why don’t you go get one?
          TEOTWAWKI is only ONE scenario that is prepped for.
          TSHTF is another.

          But, we had this kinda stuff already in this county, during the 1999 flood… bad guys know, there is profit in chaos…

          Last year, we had a home invasion of some of my family.. the bad guys just came up to the house and asked to use the phone… beat the crap out of two old and unarmed folks. So the lesson here is simple, get a gun, make sure its loaded, have it close, don’t hesitate.

          • So the lesson here is simple, get a gun, make sure its loaded, have it close, don’t hesitate.

            And don’t let anyone in to use the phone!

        • Its just a hobby now. Keep it fun. Lots better than any tv show. And there is activities for the whole family.

        • Many are so caught up in prepping for some future end that might or might not happen, they fail to live now. Prudent prepping is fine. But the obsessiveness I see here is not prudent, it is pathological.

      25. It’ll leave a mark on your shoulder if you fire it enough!

      26. What a really cool article, I sure enjoy reading it. I have many different sizes buck shot, including size 4 as this is a good point about it missing the criminal and hitting someone else. The old slug though is something that I recommend for everyone as no one is getting up after getting hit with this. I personally like the Stinger .22 Long Rifle Ammo as they have a really nice pop to them, travel 400 feet per second faster than the regular .22 LR and are much more accurate and 50-100 yards. These are much more expensive as the bulk .22 is about 3 cents a shot and the Stingers are about 12 cents each, but there are far superior when I have used them.

        No one should be afraid to fire a gun, and much of this is the noise. There are these .22 shells called “quiet” and ONLY go at 700 per second and have the same noise level as a pellet air rifle. These are excellent starters for anyone getting use to a firearm. They are about $3 for a box of 50. These practice rounds would not frighten or startling anyone. Again, nice article to read.

        By the way Mac, “thank you” for storing up my proof on earthquakes. I tried to save it in another location on the computer other than that microsoft word, and it didn’t work, it remains frozen there. I can look at it, but I cannot cut it and post it anywhere else. It was very important that this information is saved for others to see when the earthquake cycle begins again. Whenever I say something of such as a theory, it is essential that I have something concrete to back it up with. This very long statisitical document does just that. I am glad it is saved for anyone doubting that earthquakes cannot be predicted. It would be awful to retype all that information, my eyes are still bugged out from doing this the last week.

        • Just out of curiosity, would 22LR hollow points be deadly at close range? Like say 9 or 10 feet?

          • Deadly but no knock down power. You could still have to deal with a crazed fool for a few minutes as they die. But if it is all you have it is the best weapon for the job.

            Knock down power doesn’t start until you get to Heavy 38 and above.

            • The 22 hit might daze. Go straighy at them and put one in their eye 2 or 3 times then reload

          • @ SonOfSam. Anything that can put a hole in a person can be deadly at any reasonable range, especially close up. I have heard of people being killed by nail gun accidents. They say that even those high powered air rifles can kill at close range. I have heard that the lead hollow point .22LR collapse better and make a bigger hole. Those with higher velocity madse of say tin have much kinetic energy behind them and will cause much damage also. I don’t think too many people are getting up after getting hit with a half dozen or more .22 LR at close. They list the stopping power of various calibers and even the little .22 has a decent ratio, sometimes with one shot 35% as I have read. The more someone can put into a criminal the higher the percentage. You really just want to stop the threat, and anything that is going above 1000 feet per second is likely going to help slow them down at very least.

          • You can kill anything on Earth with a .22. Shot placement is the key. Putting and X on your bullet with a knife makes it even more deadly. If I didn’t have more tacticool stuff, I would be confident with a .22 any day.

            • Hollowpoint .22lr, especially if a high velocity brand, can be quite nasty with good shot placement.

              Density of clothing can be a big factor though.

        • @BI, what’s going on in Greece of all places. I was watching a documentary on earthquakes and they said the #1 super volcano is under the Med…. That can’t be good. And a 5.6? Not too small of one either!

          • @ you don’t need to know. With volcanoes I would take what John Seach is saying on volcano live web site as pretty accurate. When this volcano is getting ready, this person will let everyone know, as he is a super expert and does tours of volcanoes. As with the plates, the Eurasian plate is influencing this area along witht eh African plate and the Arabian plate. Many think that part of Greece was flattened thousands of years ago along Crete by a similar type of eruption that they are predicting could happen. Manos would defintiely know much, much more about this over in Greece.

            To explain better what is happening is Greece is being sandwiched from the northwest and the south on top of a northeast movement of the Arabian plate. A decent description of this would be like a 45 degree trash compactor type of squeeze. Along MOST oceanic plate boundaries that are going through this type of compression there are many volcanoes. The heat and pressure has to go somewhere.

            To indicate pressure building up on Greece look at especially earthquakes from about the equator to 10 degrees north along the Mid Atlantic Ridge and earthquakes in the northern Red Sea region. The more activity here means that those plate points are directed towards Greece. The USGS site should always indicate quakes where they are, look for these two regions as pressure building in Greece.

            Also always look for any large earthquake within a 200 mile radius or so of any dangerous volcano, as earthquakes sometimes will open up a fissure enough to let the volcano go off. The National Geographic special on a scenario of Yellowstone blowing up was the reason in this movie it blew. In 1959 when there was that 7.0 in Montana there were amny fears that Yellowstone could blow because enough an opening had formed to let everything through. In 1980 they were also very concerned because the Mammouth area in california had 4 6.0-6.6 earthquakes that could open up the Long Valley Caldera which is capable of almost a super volcano status. This area would likely be a VEI 7, or like when Tambora blew in the early 19th century and caused the mini-ice age.

            Notice the lack of many earthquakes and the lack of much polar activity. When the polar activity and/or when from 55.00-56.99 south gets active, big earthquakes will come. There is always the possibility of a rouge earthquake before the polar area gets going, as the Autumn and Spring equinox brings each year more earthquake activity.

            As everything is approaching it is sure nice to read an article like this. I firmly believe that each person MUST have self defense when SHTF in grand fashion, whether it is natural or manmade disasters or a combination of both. Most people can pick up a .22 rifle for around $100-$125 that will work just fine. The ammunition for a .22 is real cheap. You always want to have stopping power of a larger caliber, but when you can hit any criminal scum with something in the head, it is going to slow them down enough to keep enough distance between you and that slime that would try to hurt you. As many say above that it is placement shot, but without anything the close distance that most other self defense weapons offers does not cut it. Self defense is something everyone should really consider.

          • @ you don’t need to know. You were mentioning Greece the other day and had about what to look for to Greece. In that area I mentioned there was a 4.8 earthquake at the equator. This means that Greece should have some more moderate shaking within about 4 days. Start to see the magnitude grow in this area and you will see stronger activity in Greece.

            Anyone wondering about the New Madrid Fault and how the Caribbean fault go hand in hand only have to look at the USGS under global earthquake search and key in Significant Worldwide Earthquake from 2150 BC to 1994 AD and then put in 8.5 or bigger and see that on March 26, 1812 there was what they estimate to be a 9.6 that occurred in what would become Caracas, Venezuela. This was after the earthquakes in early 1812 on the New Madrid Fault.

            I was really taken back when I saw a couple of other earthquakes like the one that occurred on August 13, 1868 down in Peru that was a “9.5”. This should concern VRF as he was asking about Peru, and this one happened towards the Lake Titicaca region. The other one was on November 16, 1827 and occurred just south of what is now Cali, Columbia and was a “9.7”. If these earthquake estimates are correct by NOAA, this shows that this region is capable of near a 10 pointer. I could not even imagine the tsunami from near a 10 pointer east of the Virgin Islands, that is very due for a very large earthquake. I saw this last night and I said to have a 9.7 is so severe, it is like the planet getting hit with a medium size asteroid. They could be wrong in their estimates, but anyone can go here and see all the monster earthquakes of the past.

      27. Truth for prepping- Minimize your calibers. I.E. .45, .223 & 12ga.. I know to many people that brag about having umpteen different cals. If they’re not flat out lying, they are idiots. How much ammo are you gonna hump? My reasons for this combo are simple: Cost (.223 & 12ga. some of the cheapest) Ease of use- .223 obvious, 12ga. use lite-loads.(Still as effective on flesh as 00) .45 might seem heavy over a 9mm but do the math… You have to fire/hit a minimum of 3 with a 9 to equal the energy of one .45. Attention double/triple tappers! Hit where you aim on the first shot. .45 wins.

        • 12 gauge #4
          12 gauge 00
          7.62 by 39

          I figure that’s simple enough

        • My 10 mm beat your 45. My 45 is for light days.

          • Facebook Page,as a 10mm advocate and carrier,a .45 has it’s place and a real 10mm has it’s place.The 10 is a pistol and a rifle.I have both.

        • I always disliked bastard and wildcat calibers. Those guns seemed to be harder to sell used.

          • The 10mm is selling well thanks to Glock building a gun around the cartridge.UnderWood Ammo is the go to for real 10mm.

            • The 10mm has been a big seller with anyone in northern bear also. Assortment of ammo coming out. And now SW Wheel guns. Nice To have in the extreme dirty and freezing areas of some work areas. And also now as a SBR there are coming out with Glock Rifle conversions.

      28. Over-penetration is the least of my worries when I might be outnumbered by armed intruders. All I care about is stopping the threat with anything including improvised sharpened sticks if need be, but preferably 12ga “00” Buckshot.

        • Has anyone thought of using Tac Vests?

          • I don’t know, but a good question. If I’m not mistaken they use either steel or ceramic inserts don’t they?

            • Some do have plates. What I was referring to is the ability to carry more magazines or ammo into the fight. Flashlight and first aid kit. There are many options.

            • Slingshot, you are 100% correct. It’s definitely a huge bonus to own a vest whether for self defense or competition. Last year I purchased a modular vest from Tactical Tailor. Great quality and customer service if anyone is interested.

            • they vary, some just have level 3a and level 3 some have level 4. some will have steel plates ar500 plates with a plate carrier and a level 3a underneath, you gotta shoot for the femar bone or headshot with buckshot. I have a benelli m2 with buckshot and next bullet is a segmented slug that cops use that break into 3-4 parts upon impat, then buckshot and slug and buckshot and slug, i jump them so will have 8 shots total. 4 buckshot and 4 slugs that break apart.

            • I keep a blackhawk ranger vest loaded with ar mags, 40 cal and a few essentials such as an extra flashlight(also have one attached to every gun I own. Couple of smoke grenades and a small trauma kit.

          • Tactical Tailor and some Maxpedition make great gear.
            SKD, Eagle Industies for pouches and shingles.

            • Forgot….Check out Blue Force Gear as well.

        • Te higher the protection the heavier they are. Every pound added slows you down and you lose mobility. On many occasion we misplaced our armor for fast moving “walk abouts” But in a stationary position bring the bricks.

        • If I’m certain of where my family is located during a firefight inside my home, I won’t think twice before punching holes through the sheetrock to kill the man on the other side. Especially with a .30 cal fmj round.

          • And I am sure the innocent neighbor you kill and his relatives will be quite understanding of your bravado.

            • I guess not being able to wear a hat is terrible for you………less you cover the little hole in the top of your head where the piss comes out.

      29. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. OPSEC means never having to say you’re sorry something you said or did made your family a target. Light and communications controls are just the start. Would your neighbors notice if you weren’t standing in the bread line? Do you have resupply caches in case you have to leave with just a go bag? Can you fill your retreat with chlorine gas from outside if you are overran?

        I spent five years living in a 30 year-old mobile home in a trailer park. I never locked the door once and was left alone despite nicer neighborhoods getting burglarized because I looked poor. They guy who looks armed to the hilt may get shot in the back on the way to the outhouse. The battle we are sure to win is the one we do not have to fight.

        • PP: You are right if you look poor you maybe passed by, BUT I think in this up coming struggle ALL place will be looked at and gone through no matter what. Thats just me

      30. Ever heard of Google Map?
        I use it to see what the neighbors have in thier yards. Choke points, retreat and advancement lanes, etc.
        Use that little yellow guy to run around and look for me. Has not complained once. ;0)

        • @Slingshot:

          This is something I have worried about a lot: that people will study our property to see how best to attack it. Also, I am keeping track of google street view (a fucking waste of time except for those doing home invasion), people would be able to see who is home, what one’s patterns are, who the vulnerable targets in the home and when they might be alone. Any strategy to keep these from being used on us?

          Course google doesn’t give a rat’s ass if this creates danger and vulnerability for those pictured, as long as it brings in $$, those ass clowns…..

          • There is nothing you can do about casing your property. Google Map is a prime example. I have some large dogs. Fenced yard with fence tangs up. Low shrubs. Motion sensors lights with buzz alarm.
            Here is a tip. Hope you have a solid steel front door. Then replace the screws that are on the door frame/Lock Plate with 3 inch wood screws. The screws they put in just go into the door frame and you need to extend them into wall frme. Gives you about 40% more strenght for a door kick in. Get it. Windows can be augmented by placing dowels on frames in order to keep from opening them. Take away thier advantages.

            • Also install a heavy duty steel screen security door that opens out with a deadbolt in addition to the door knob lock. Mount it in a steel frame and you can even leave your regular door open at night. If you have the time and money change out the existing door framing with something made of metal or some dense DF or other harder stronger wood. Too many houses have nothing but soft wood used in their construction which splinter easily.

            • @slingshot and John W:

              thanks for the tips. I am definitely going to have a hard time hardening my location.

            • I wanted to mention that over the years, many have done yard improvement/landscape projects. Materials like stone pavers, bricks and railroad ties sit in our yards as available added protection. Hiddened in plain site.
              Have you ever given thought about your car or truck?
              A good fuel storage that you would not want burned on the street in front of your home by renegades.
              A small wheelbarrel can sure tote a lot of stuff.
              Lots of things have dual purposes. You just have to recognise them.

      31. Zombies are the least of my concern, from my vantage point. Those “Who Serve and Protect” the Elite, now those will be the ones to avoid. Let the Zombies and the Militarized Polizei duke it out. Once the dust settles, then take out who’s ever standing. Better yet, lay low until the storm passes over. Why waste ammo?

        • EA ~ Long time, no see! Hope you’re well – you were missed!


          • I’ve been here off and on, reading the good info and comments, but laying low. TIme, for me, is getting so valuable. I have to confess, I get pulled into good sites like this and before you know it, an hour or two goes by. Do that everyday with a number of good sites, and the hours really add up. To be honest, I think I was once addicted to the internet but was in denial about it. Kind’a had to have it, everyday. Well, I still dabble, but I keep my distance now. Besides, EVERYTHING we all post now, once we log in, is recorded into “THE BIG DATA FILE IN THE SKY”. Not that I care, it’s too late for that, but I’d prefer that the less they know of me, the better. Screw ’em!

        • Exactly! Personally, I’m hoping to chill out and keep my mouth shut and my head down. Even the worst storm’s gotta blow over sooner or later

      32. i vote for the good old 12 gauge shotgun you just can’t go wrong with it…

      33. This article for me– a 5’1″, 120 lb., 62 year old senior– is way over the top.
        I’m just gonna have to go when God calls, be it earthquake or Smith & Wesson.

        • JayJay,
          We’re just gonna have to get you a Flame Thrower.

          Marshmellows anyone ;0)

          • OMG–bring it…I’m ready to learn.

        • jayjay,

          The good news is that with the amount of homes in this country, the odds that yours will be a target are actually pretty small. Think about it, are the supposed gangs going to hit every house in the country? If there are so many out there with guns then they will make short order of the thugs. Put it in God’s hands and just do the best you can to prepare in any way that you can. No one really knows what will happen or when or even if, so relax and take a deep breath. When God calls is right, my faith keeps me happy and in check when things get rough in my life, it is a good way to live with peace in your heart.

          • If every prepper takes out one “gangsta”, they’ll be DONE. And we will be on our way to cleansing America of the filth.

            Next stop, the REAL “axis of evil” — Wall Street, DC and Hollywood

            • So, you advocate going around and just killing anyone whom you consider a “gangsta”? Sounds real civilized to me, and I am sure those “gangstas” will in no way respond. But, how long will it be before you change and broaden your definition of gangsta? And with the psychopathic mind set you just demonstrated, you will.

          • I can only say with honesty, if you’re the first invader, and you’re alone, you might not be leaving, at least not standing.
            My huge worry is the neighbors; they are NOT prepping.
            If so, I would see them carrying in stuff–and no, they can’t pull into our spacious garages(like I do and have been for close to four years)–they are full of blings!!!
            God help me. Use my hands and guide my feet..help me to be more like your Son each day and forgive me when not. Amen.

        • Don’t give up so easily.

      34. Greetings Everyone!
        Just two questions.I thought I had read here that a 16 gauge shotgun was the “ideal” under the bed gun.Another question if I may,how hard is it to increase the size of ammo magazines?
        I’m guessing that not counting the LEO and co. that some of the zombies might know the average amount that a regular shotgun holds and be able to count….
        It might be a bad day when they come at you while re-loading…
        Best to All

        • GrayfoxGreen.

          If your shotgun is box magazine fed I do not know of anyone who makes aftermarket high capacity mags for shotguns. Let alone 16ga. Some 12 gage have tube extenders and now 12 gage drums are showing up on some models.

        • 16 gauge is a nice cartridge – it ain’t called “sweet sixteen” for nothin’. But it’s not easy to fond ammo. Been there, done that, took up reloading my own.

        • I love 16 ga shotgun for partridge hunting, the only problem is that the ammo isn’t as readily available as 12’s & 20’s.

      35. please stop refering to ar’s and ak’s as assault weapons.
        An assault weapon is FULL automatic. I believe that the ar’s and ak’s available to the general public are Semi auto rifles.

        • There is full auto assault. 3 and 4 positions. And semi auto assault rifles 2 Position. By military standards.

          They are all auto loader. Some just do it automatically.

        • Only ilk such as Chuck Schumer and Dianne Feinstein call semi-auto rifles “assault rifles”. Semi-auto AR, AK, FAL, etc. type rifles are battle rifles.

          If you have no felony record, live in a class III friendly county, can get the correct signatures on the ATF form, pay the $200 “tax stamp”, pay $9,000 and higher for a pre-1986 (machine gun, select fire receiver, or auto sear), and wait about 6-9 months for the paper work to go through the system, you can own a machine gun.

          Otherwise, just be a Mexican drug dealer and let Eric Holder hook you up with some guns from Fast and Furious for next to nothing.

        • An assault rifle is a term used by commies describing any rifle owned by a Non-Commie. The commies keep trying to disarm all Non-Commies because commies are afraid of getting shot.

          • Commie? Where are you, stuck in the 50’s? No wonder I see so many stupid statements here.

            • And many of them do seem to come from you lately. Please educate your self with weapons and personal defence issues before making these judgements you have been making.

            • Joe’s right…they’ve rebranded themselves as Progressive Socialists. Try to keep up with these shifty fellows as they change their stripes again and again and again. I am scandalized that you have actually called a spade a spade rather than consulting your most recent edition of Newspeak, version 52.3.

        • Modern sporting rifles.

      36. Just read on Reuters.com:
        WASHINGTON | Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:19pm EDT

        WASHINGTON (Reuters) – Ann Romney’s airplane made an emergency landing in Colorado on Friday after its cabin filled with smoke, the campaign of her husband, Republican presidential challenger Mitt Romney, said.

        Everyone on board the private plane was safe, a campaign spokesman said.

        Mrs. Romney and her husband spoke shortly after the landing, Rick Gurka, a Romney campaign press aide, told reporters traveling with the candidate in Las Vegas.

        The cause was believed to be an electrical fire, Romney campaign press secretary Andrea Saul said in a tweet.

        ….So the question is, does Obama have a hit out on Romney and his wife to get the “competition” out of the way?
        …or does Romney have a hit out on his own wife in order to gain extra sympathy votes??

        • Oh please. Take your meds.

      37. Well-written article, helpful for someone getting started.

      38. Also keep in mind

        if they are suggesting you have body armor..the perp has already stole it off the last guy he either killed..or stole from someones house ’cause they(the home owner) werent wearing it., or he planned to do as much mayhem as possible and owns his own balistic vest or more.

        typical home invasion in todays times..maybe not an issue, but in an on going collapse..it sure as hell could be something you come up against.
        so adjust arms accordingly.

        also a neat trick i like to excercise is sliding out of my bedroom hall on my back on the floor and aiming up toward the front door..(i only poke out 1/4 of myself)
        most intruders are not looking down,
        I also have a high powered flash light and lazer combo on my home defense shotgun (870 defender)with a palm switch.
        it will blind the shit out of them, they cant hit, what they cant see
        i could slide out and pump 4 or 5 rounds at them and slide back in before they know what hit em, and most of what i hit will have an upward trijectory..

        • Oh i forgot to add, never fire just once..keep firing til the threat is down and not moving

          • Or to quote “the Jesus”–

            “I’m gonna stick that gun up your ass and pull the trigger until it goes ‘click’ ”

            NOBODY fucks with the Jesus

            • Hhahaha..

          • Een if the treat is down. Reload before making even a single step. You could be very wrong.

        • And GC’s favorite–marbles on the entrance way at the front door or back, considering which way they choose.’
          I like it.

        • I have the laser/flashlight combo on the picatinny rail on my 9mm Ruger P95 (nightstand gun), great addition!

      39. I disagree with some of the points on shotguns.

        There is a misconception that a shotgun is a “scatter gun” that will spread shot out in a wide pattern, making it nearly impossible for the person using it to miss his/her target.

        While that may be true at 30 or 40 yards, it is far from correct when it comes to ranges that would be encountered by someone defending their home….particularly inside the home. At close range, the pattern of a shotgun…even with an open or improved cylinder barrel will be measured in inches…not feet.

        So…it is VERY easy for a shooter…particularly a scared, inexperienced shooter…to miss their intended target completely.

        Second….bird shot is a bad idea. The reason….poor penetration.

        When trying to put an assailant down, unless sufficient damage is done to either the circulatory system or central nervous system, there is an excellent change that the assailant is NOT going to be incapacitated. That is bad news for you. Bird shot does not offer sufficient penetration to offer a guarantee of either. So what you will have is one, very pissed off assailant, who might just take your shotgun away from you and use it on you. The very energy that causes buckshot to penetrate wallboard, is the energy that is required to provide adequate penetration and a projectile large enough to do damage sufficient to stop an attacker.

        • You mention poor penetration, however there is still the impact to deal out a wallop. Even when a bean bag is fired from a 12 gauge.. it may be non lethal, but still knocks people on their ass, does it not? I once shot a coyote with a .410 with #8 bird shot (hey, it was what I had in hand) it dropped like a rock. Have not tried shooting anyone with a 12 gauge, but no matter what the shot size, I don’t really expect them to just continue strolling up to me (pissed off or not) and taking the gun from me.

          • @9mm….

            Again…your intent in a self-defense situation, is to put a stop to the attack. Simply knocking the assailant down, does not guarantee that he will break off the attack. He might just get back up, take your shotgun away from you, and use it on you.

            There are only two guaranteed ways to stop the attack…

            1. Create injury to the central nervous system that is sufficient to render the assailant incapable of further hostility. This is best accomplished by a shot in a triangular shaped area comprised of the mouth and both eyes.

            2. Cause sufficient damage to the circulatory system so that the assailant bleeds out. A well placed shot to the heart can do that, if the caliber of the weapon used is large enough and delivers enough force and destructive power. (Sorry…..bird shot is probably not going to do that unless you are at extremely close range.

            Another thing to consider is that if the assailant is wearing body armor, bird shot will definitely be ineffective. And ever very heavy clothing may be sufficient to stop bird shot.

        • you can fix this using a rifled barrel the pellets expand faster and cover twice aas much area as normal.

        • walt I know what your saying and agree most of what you said but birdshot to the face will blind them faster than obama taking off his pants

          • I just threw up in my mouth a little….

        • Who said only one shot.

        • cut the barrel back to 10″ long and see how that goess for ya..

          the pattern can be measured in feet..real nice hall way sweeper..but you better have a dam good hold of it

          • Do.t do this. It make it an aow and this is a felony everywhere. If you must have a short barrel shotgun. And they do have many uses. Do it legal. Thay will take everything if you dont have the paper on it

            • FP: After the SHTF dosen’t matter legal or not.

            • At that point I do not disagree. But do not do it until then.

      40. I’ll take a few thousand 8mm Mauser, about 5,000 .40 S&W, same with 7.62×25 tokarev, crap loads of .22lr and 500 or so 12GA…….But that is just a short list and a very conservative one at that. I would love a minimum of 10,000 rounds in each caliber but unless I discover by accident that I am a Jew or related to oil tycoons and the money/support starts flowing towards me, I’ll have to do the best I can. That’s a joke anyway, I am not related in any possible way to the “chosen people”.

      41. Prepers kid themselves if they think they are safe because they have a gun or ‘safe room’…lol. Do they really think that they can protect themselves by staying awake 24/7/365? By hiding in a “secret” (known by everyone involved in it’s construction) room while the rest of the house is emptied/ occupied and then, maybe set on fire for the fun of it when they leave?

        This looks more like an ad to sell this stuff to unthinking people with more money than brains. You will get protection from being a useful/contributing part of the surrounding community of people, but be prepared to die for that ‘safety’. There will be no one there to call for help. No one.

        • hey listen, this is a good general info for people. sure we know a hell of a lot more but for the average joe this is very informational article. come on man!

          • Dream on. If it gets so bad you need guns, it will already be too late. Think about that fact when you decide to shoot your neighbor or your brother.

      42. 7.62×39 is not a NATO round, mistakes such as this cast doubt on the entire article.

        • Tom, this has been corrected here and on the original article. Thanks! Mac

      43. @blackriflewarrior.

        Can I do it? YES.
        I am giving them every chance now to make it right. Once it starts,”It’s Show Time”. No remorse then. Just do what I have to do and as you say, may God have mercy on us.

      44. On the subject of 12ga, projectiles. Has anyone seen Flecettes? Nails with wings. They were at the gun shows and I remember seeing them on surplus sites.
        Are they still around?

        • Flecettes are fun but won’t penetrate soft armor very well. Best off with a 3/4″ choke and a 12g.

          BTW, the information about body armor is wrong. Type (level) 3 will not stop rifle rounds of any kind. Not even subsonic rifle cartridges. Expect some broken ribs if even hit by a .40 while wearing soft armor. Was just at a range and had extra soft armor in the garage.

          • At a gun show in Florida a week ago a merchant selling body armor said the type that stops rifle bullets will not be sold after October 1st 2012 by law. He claimed it was because of a UN treaty the US signed that takes effect that day.

            Anyone know anything about this claim?

            • Just back from the gun show. Had a table selling body armor and the guy said it was Dec.1,2012 they can not sell that rifle plates.Then he got into serial numbered plates, proof of sale and it going to be illegal, Blah, Blah Blah.
              Aggressive salesman.

            • Slingshot

              So is it valid or not? I can’t find anything about it on the net which is casting doubt on their claims.

              Personally I think if you need that level of protection your probably not going to live too long afterword however does anyone know anything about this?

          • V: You are right about the Flecettes, I’ve found that most of them tumble right out of the barrel no penetration. Right again on level 3. Check out the penetration on body armor with 7.62×25 that round is all some.

        • they sure are, you have to look around but can get them, seen them in pa ace gun shot washington pa

        • Stick to No 4 TAC. The spike rounds are custom: rounds and rarly two are alike

          TAC4 and some slugs remsmber 00 in most cases is to hard to handle in a firefihjt
          Its one thing going though a door and unloading your tube. But a dragged out fight can tear you up quickly. Think it though brfore committing to 000 00

        • Flechettes are still around I bought mine from Cheaper than dirt. I take out the nine balls from my 12 gauge oo buck and fill the hole up with flechettes. They do a heck of a job on a hollow core door and also penatrate most balistic fabrics

          • Pretty Good Ed

            How do they pattern relative to buckshot or birdshot? How many of those nail things do you get into a 12 gauge shell?

            • K2: Stick with buck peroid.

            • That I will argue. I have seen the damage from both. 4 to 000 00. The Tac 4 are easier to control does the damage needed. And does not tear up the average shooter. If you need holes just go to a low recoil slug.

              I am talking defence. Now if hunting for food. Large game slug or 0Buck for sure. Longer barrel also.

      45. Do not forget the sig p200 line. You can get caliber x-change kits for them for .22cal. 9mm .40 cal. 357 sig and .45 cal. They are a great weapon and used by many police forces including air marshals, FBI and Navy Seals.

      46. Level IV plates designed for multiple hits are available from Galls (www.galls.com) for only ablut $200 each. That’s very inexpensive comparably.

      47. The world gets curiouser and curiouser every day. Who needs to worry about post-crash zombies in the neighborhood when we already have them running the government now? If I hear one more soundbite from the kenyan or the bankster, I’m gonna puke.
        Now…about this idea for home security: Nice article, Mac! And thanks to Tess for providing a good starting point in self defense. There are, however many other things in addition to firearms that should be considered in planning your home defense. Here at the okie compound, we’ve gained much knowledge of home protection through the trial and error method. Fortunately most of the errors never actually went to trial and we were able to settle out of court. The following is offered as a public service.

        Stuff To Put On The DON’T List For Home Security-

        1- DON’T rely on an overfed Rottweiler pup to scare away intruders. If your dog waddles into the yard on a sunny day, casts a shadow, and the shadow weighs more than 5 lbs, he is in no shape to help protect you. Best to just leave him sitting there in front of the tv watching scooby doo cartoons and handle the situation without him.

        2- DON’T neglect gun cleaning. Firearms should be cleaned after each use. If your newest gun cleaning kit was purchased during the Nixon administration and it still has a full bottle of cleaning fluid, you should probably take this responsibility more seriously.

        3- When practicing home safety drills, be sure that ALL female teenagers understand that texting the word ‘help’ to 911 is not a useful tactic. Girls should also be informed that pointing a blow dryer (no matter how high the wattage) into the face of an attacker is not going to disable him. At best, it will only make his hair look good for the mug shot.

        4- If your home contains one or more females between puberty and menopause, there are a certain few days of the month when no additional security steps need be taken. If six burly men break down your door, just send the wife to handle it. Provided it’s the right day on the calendar, she’ll whip their butts, throw their lifeless carcasses out in the yard and be back to bed in under 4 minutes. You can continue sleeping.

        5- DON’T leave open pitfalls uncovered until AFTER the crash. During the peaceful pre-crash days, the fedex guy will appreciate having them covered. Especially the ones with the razor wire or sharpened stakes in them.

        6- DON’T forget to check your social calendar before doing drills. It can be quite embarrassing to answer the door in your full-body chem suit and gas mask, then realize you’d invited the Reverend and his wife to dinner that night for your wife’s special liver and onions casserole.

        One last thing- DON’T let the worries of our collapsing society overwhelm you. If you watch ‘Drinking with Bob’ on youtube in order to relax, you may be a bit too stressed. Take a breather. Keep prepping, but don’t forget to enjoy what’s left of these good old days!

        cheers- okie

        • #3..if you inject hair spray into the back of it while its on full blast, that brings about a completely different tool
          that or a less volitile substance that will still blind the piss out of someone is flower , regular baking flower into the back of the hair dryer as its running into thier face

          hey many ways to use many types of regular home found items to have the ability to be turned into weapons

          I love drinking with Bob..he’s a fun drunk

          • Right you are, VRF! Creative home defense means using what you have.
            And Bob is one of my favorites. Wish I had half of his energy 🙂

          • Could people here add some of their favorite ideas for using common household items for weapons?

            Since I work in a medical office, there are tons of things in a medical clinic that would make good weapons. I remember an angry patient in the emergency room that managed to do a great deal of damage but fortunately only to furniture.

            Another question, an MRI is a huge magnet used similar to an xray machine. Anyone who has ever worked near one knows that small metal items can be pulled out of their hands by the machine. What effect would the machine have on various types if firearms? On bullets? Some of my friends were speculating on this but I’d love to hear some additional ideas.

            • Merree: One thing you use for personal protection is Raid etc. WASP SPRAY better than mace. Look for one that can spray 12+ ft.

            • @Merree-I do not see an MRI machine doing anything to a gun itself unless the person came in very close proximity of the machine while it is on. As far as having an affect on bullets, that would very greatly on the bullet as some would not be affected by magnetic pull nearly at all while others would be more affected. That said unless this room is gynormous the affect would be so minimal as to not affect flight, in my opinion.

              As far as weapons of opportunity you are in a great environment. Knives, scissors, scalpels, chairs or any blunt force objects.

            • Look up potato guns, simple to make with some PVC, a grill ignitor and some hair spray. Not lethal (9unless you stick a big nail in the potato), but it will definitely knock someone down and leave a hell of a welt!!!

        • Okie – #’s 3 & 4 are classic, when were you at my house????

      48. H’Ookayy…
        Let’s try this again… (3rd post)
        With respect to shotguns, the function of “spread” is critically dependeant on the ‘choke’ of the gun. A tight choke strongly limits the spread of shot downrange. I. E.
        ‘full’ choke on a 30″ barrel is suitable to reach out to a range of 80+ yards (think, “goose hunting”) whereas a full-open choke, AKA cylinder bore would spread an equal amount in about 20 yds approx. As to the shot size, take it from someone whose reloaded not thousands, but TENS of thousands of rounds over time…#4 shot is a wicked brew. Though it is classifyably “bird shot” the typical
        bird one would be shooting it at is pheasant, a bird so tough to knock down on the fly that it’s infuriating with anything smaller than #4. Same is also used up to 45-50 yards on squirrel, another suprisingly tough little critter. Within 20 yards AND especially in a confined space where one’s loved one’s are also present
        the WORST possible load against an intruder would be buckshot since it goes through wallboard (and lot’s of other sturdier thing) as if it were tissue paper. Inasmuch A ny time I’ve ever been pressed, in a bad way, it seems like Murphy’s law is consistently operational and so in the heat of the moment IF there were the slightest possibility that I wasn’t 100% sure were my family was in a dwelling I could not would not shoot with Buck…too absolutely dangerous. Not to mention what happens when the 00 gooes through 4 walls worth of wallboard and kills your neighbor…or his kid.

        • Thanks for mentioning killing your neighbor or his kid. Too many of my fellow gun owners give that no consideration. When I mention the folly of using an AR or AK for home defense in a subdivision because you could just as easily kill a family member or neighbor, they look at me like I have lost my mind. They seem to think the rounds will not go past the walls as if some force field exists. Of course, I am also finding many of my fellow gun owners live in a fantasy world which causes me to winder if gun ownership is a cause of or mental illness or if most gun owners are just plan ignorant. Yes, I own guns and have a stockplie of ammo and frequent the firing range, not because I fear the the government, but because of what I hear a lot of gun owners saying.

          • @ JoeinNC. People that own guns are not your enemy. If you go out and frequent that firing range then you see firsthand the responsibility of a gun owner. I myself hope to God I never have to kill or shoot anyone. However I won’t hesitate to defend myself or those around me from those that would attack and/or take what I have to survive.

            We live in an awful world in which there is legitimate fear of what could and what will happen. Too many times in the past, in too many countless countries, when people didn’t have a means of defending themselves they ended up prisoners of the state. Jewish people did not have a means of defending themselves and ended up gas and cooked in ovens. Dictators know that the first course of control is to take away a person’s ability to project an object at significant velocity. Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat and live through it once again.

            If you go out to the shooting range, then you surround yourself with those that you fear will go ballasitic. Why do you go out to the shooting range with gun owners that you don’t trust? Reason is because you actually do trust most gun owners. You just fear the rare individual that will go nuts with a firearms. There are plenty of other crazies that do nuts with other weapons also. It is really not fair to categorize gun owners as dangerous, almost all gun owners are extremely responsible people just like you met and talk to out at the shooting range.

          • @JoeinNC….

            You seem to be an Obama supporter. Why don’t you do the right thing NOW and go turn all of your guns into the police? Get rid of all of them.

            That is what Obama wants. You’d be putting your money where your mouth is, and supporting his agenda.

            C’mon….Man up. Do the right thing.

      49. “for a home defense shotgun, you can pick any gauge you want…as long as it is 12-gauge.”

        I love that quote!


        Interstate license ID cameras are now on I-80(they are installing them right now), in between Elko, and wells NV, have also seen them in Utah.

        Chime in people, Where have you seen them?

        They are on 30-40 ft poles. with cameras angled down.

        They are simular to the camera set up at weight stations, but these are going up miles and niles away from stations.

        Okie and the other truckers, you are our eyes and ears, whatcha seeing out there?

        • there is a cure for these cameras, people just have to stand up against them.

          if they are destroyed constantly they will run out of money to buy and put them back up..

          over in Austraila these cameras are burned with lit tires wrapped around the pole or mount
          they have done so many and everytime they are replaced, that they are no longer replacing them

          they will only be there if we allow it

        • All of Florida’s interstates, I-95, turnpike, ect, are 100% covered. Every mile on alternate sides. If you are on hwy, your being tracked. Then again, if your cell phone has an internal battery, even when turned off can still be tracked. The machine is fully operational. There will be no mass uprising. We were all just minding our own lives when something could have been done. Get right with God…

        • We went from ME to NC for vacation this spring, and both vehicles got hit in VA for speeding tickets from stand-alone radar/camera stations. One was a rental so the ticket to 2 months to get to us so the fine was doubled. Every day I feel more and more like going the way of Gods Creation Sovereign Man…..

        • I’ve seen them on I-40 in New Mexico (or maybe it was Arizona). I’m not sure. But I saw them this past May.

      50. Good article. I would like to add a bit to it. We all remember the former Winchester Black Talon ammo. It isn’t made anymore. It became politically correct by removing the black teflon coating and calling it Winchester Ranger +P+. A lot of semi autos can’t shoot it, but my Ruger SR 9 can. I have found it in gun shows around the area and have purchased it. I have been to the Winchester ammo site and it isn’t listed, but when I type in the product code I am able to find the ballistics information. Not sure if it’s still being manufactured or not.For a 4inch barrel it was 453 foot/lbs of energy for the 9mm, not too much lower than a 357. I would assume a 40 S&W and a 45 ACP would experience similar increases over a standard round.
        Winchester does make 9mm Nato rounds (and for 40 S&W and 45 ACP too) which is +P, and I just this week purchased some at Cabella’s, so I know it’s still made.

        My point is you can upgrade your fire power (particularly of the 9mm) without having to increase your caliber.

        IMPORTANT NOTE: read your owner’s manual (can be found online if you can’t find your copy) and make sure that your firearm can shoot +P or +P+ before buying any. You may surprise yourself and find out that your brand new handgun can only shoot standard ammo, in which case you might want to go to a higher caliber. Irregardless, use a firearm that works best for you and that you feel comfortable. Even a well placed 22LR hollow point round will do the job.

        • If your SR9 can shoot it, I assume my P95 can as well, your thoughts?

      51. The Next Panic

        Europe’s crisis will be followed by a more devastating one, likely beginning in Japan.

      52. “During my concealed weapons permit course…”

        Dear Sir…We established in the Constitution that “We The People” are a free people and have enumerated certain RIGHTS which are given to a free people by their Creator. I feel I must remind my fellow Americans, my fellow Patriots, that the RIGHTS given to them by God require no permits to be exercised.

        I do not need a permit to enjoy my RIGHT to KEEP and BEAR arms.

        Do you nead a permit to attend church and worship our Creator? Of course not!

        To keep and bear arms is a RIGHT, not a privilege.

        Do not be deceived by an evil and tyrannical government.

        • A judge asked a lady why she shot the rapist/burglar 6 times.
          She said, “because, when I pulled the trigger the 7th time, it just went, click!!”

        • I see nothing in the Bible about your alleged “God-given” rights. Where are you getting crap?

          • Maybe you just do not have eyes to see and ears to hear God’s Word.
            Maybe you are an atheist. Therefore, you do not have any rights in the United States because you do not believe in the founding principles of this country. Why are you still here?
            “Where am I getting crap?” The only place I am getting crap is from you.
            God Bless

        • I agree with you 100%, but cops and judges seem to think otherwise…

          • @MXLord327

            It’s good to hear that YOU know the truth. The question now is where do you draw your line in the sand? Two historical examples are;
            1)Lexington,MA 1775 – American patriots fire the “shot heard around the world” to defend their store of guns, gun powder, and ammunition because the tyrannical British monarchy sent their “cops and judges” to seize them. Thus, the start of the American Revolution.

            2)Nazi Weapon’s Act 1938 – Tyrannical Nazi government passes act banning most guns. German citizens must get permission , as well as register approved guns with Nazi officials. Nazis make list of “undesirables” that can never own guns. German people surrender their freedom and “lick the Nazi government boots”. Once the Nazi government believes it has sufficient control over the citizens they require the German citizen to accept the Nazi beliefs. Thousands of Germans refuse Nazi party and thousands of Germans are murdered by “their” government. National Socialists go on to murder and cause the deaths of millions of people world wide.

            I will draw my line with the Constitution and the Second Amendment.

      53. 12g shotgun is the penultimate self defense weapon. No. 4 and 00 buckshot for the house. 00 and birdshot for food. You can’t miss at legal self defense ranges, and that is the key. Pistols take practice, and you are less likely to hit when you are startled awake by an intruder from a dead sleep and the adrenaline is pumping. You never see endless internet arguments about shotgun stopping power.

        For kicks find a old model 12 or 1897; you can hold the trigger down and just rack the slide to fire.

        Practical, Remington 870 walmart special with slug, 18″ and 30″ bird barrel.

        • @Oldboy…..

          Actually….you CAN miss with a shotgun at legal self defense ranges.

          In fact, at extremely close range, you have about as good a chance of missing with a shotgun as you do a pistol. And with a shotgun, unless it’s an autoloader, you are going to have to rack another round before you get off the next shot. With a pistol, you may have anywhere from 6-15 more rounds you can put into the assailant by just pulling the trigger.

          Don’t get me wrong. The shotgun is an excellent weapon in the hands of someone who has their wits about them and knows how to use it. But against multiple assailants, or in cramped quarters it has its disadvantages as well.

          In fact, if I were facing an attack by multiple assailants, the weapon I would want to have in my hands is a compact AR-15.

      54. Remember, if you choose to use deadly force that you are not shooting to kill, you are shooting to stop the threat. And, you continue shooting until that threat stops. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

        • A judge asked a lady why she shot the rapist/burglar 6 times.
          She said, “because, when I pulled the trigger the 7th time, it just went, click!!”

      55. Moral of the story: Don’t live in California.

      56. Good article, good responses. As a former Marine gun enthusiast I feel your most likely to do well in a stressful situation with the gun you are most comfortable and familiar. That will stop looters and protect the family from gangs. Doesn’t really matter what it is, so long as you know how to use it.

        As for fighting the military; he who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day. Never dig in and go toe to toe with the military. Any prolonged fight will have artillery or drone missiles or attack helo’s called in. You will lose that fight gauranteed. Shoot and move.

        10,000 rounds of ammo won’t help you if you are on foot. 200 rounds and some water and chow and dry socks is a much better plan.

        God bless

        • Chance: Thank you for your sevice. I have one thing to say about your comment on going toe to toe with the military, Please do not call them military, if they are fighting U.S. citizen’s then they have obeyed an unlawful order, that makes them paid mercenaries and they are fair game. True they may have the fire power, but THEY ARE NOT MILITARY.
          Co. C 75th Inf. 1st Air Cav. (LuRRP) 70-74

          • Copperhead-Thank you for your service. I am not sure what other term to call the military. If we want to think of the standing army as mercenaries that is splitting frog hairs to me. I imagine a scenario where the troops do not know what is going on other than what they have been briefed on. “Secure this area from civil unrest and militias by any means necessary…” In my mind they will be briefed that we are the domestic enemy they swore an oath to defend against. History will be written by the victor.

            • @Chance….

              I’m of the opinion that every person in the military should have a thorough familiarity with the history of Nazi Germany and the Holocaust.

              “I was just following orders” is not going to cut it.

        • Have the 10,000 rounds stashed in your AO.

      57. Oldboy

        Older Ithaca Model 37s and Winchester Model 12s have no disconnectors too. They can be fired by racking the slide and just keeping the trigger depressed.

        Personally I find them a bit dangerous for a novice.

      58. The Quote of the Decade:

        “The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the US Government cannot pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing
        financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. Increasing America ‘s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that, “the buck stops
        here.’ Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.”
        ~ Senator Barack H. Obama, March 2006

        Y’all Beware! How right your are!

      59. One day in the future, Barac Obama has a heart-attack and dies. He immediately goes to hell, where the devil is waiting for him.

        “I don’t know what to do here,” says the devil. “You are on my list, but I have no room for you. You definitely have to stay here, so I’ll tell you what I’m going to do. I’ve got a couple of folks here who weren’t quite as bad as you. I’ll let one of them go, but you have to take their place. I’ll even let YOU decide who leaves.”

        Barac thought that sounded pretty good, so the devil opened the door to the first room.

        In it was Ted Kennedy and a large pool of water. Ted kept
        diving in, and surfacing, empty handed. Over, and over, and over he dived in and surfaced with nothing. Such was his fate in hell.

        “No,” Barac said. “I don’t think so. I’m not a good swimmer, and I don’t think I could do that all day long.”

        The devil led him to the door of the next room.

        In it was Al Gore with a sledge-hammer and a room full of rocks. All he did was swing that hammer, time after time after time.

        “No, this is no good; I’ve got this problem with my shoulder. I would be in constant agony if all I could do was break rocks all day,” commented Barac.

        The devil opened a third door. Through it, Barac saw Bill
        Clinton, lying on the bed, his arms tied over his head, and his legs restrained in a spread-eagle pose. Bent over him was Monica Lewinsky, doing what she does best.

        Barac looked at this in shocked disbelief, and finally said, “Yeah man, I can handle this.”

        The devil smiled and said………..

        “OK, Monica, you’re free to go.”

        Y’all Beware!

        • Y’all

          You just made my day..



      60. My home defense friend is named “Black Jack”. He’s a Mossberg 590A1, one of the few true Mil Spec shotguns made and still serving with our troops.

        Old Jack has a ghost ring rear sight and a Meprolite(spelling?) front night sight. He was mag-na-ported to reduce recoil.

        What makes the 590A1 so special is unlike most other shotguns, both the barrel and magazine tubes are extra thick to resist dents, which is a big problem with combat pump shotguns. His magazine spring has been replaced with a extra power Wolff spring for reliable feeding.

        The action has been moly-coated and is as smooth as silk. The stock is a Speedfeed pistol grip rig with a 13 in. lop.

        It’s the most reliable gun I have ever owned (including my AK’s) and can take care of any trouble out to 125 yards with slugs. (Most combat takes place around 75 yards)

        If anyone wants Black Jack they’ll have to take it “From my cold dead hands!

        • Mossberg makes a fine meat and potatoes gun. They always go BANG when you pull the trigger. The Brownings are good for show; the Mossberg for work.

        • I have a Mossberg 835 for turkey & goose hunting, can’t beat those 3 1/2″ magnums when you need to reach out & touch some feathered critter. I also have a 500 Bantam 20 ga for the kids. My brother-in-law put over 20,000 through a walmart model 500 before it finally gave up the ghost. Mossberg makes a great product.

      61. I guess if they are leaading by example, we should be able to shoot them when they come up to our car to write us a ticket

        Houston officer kills double amputee in wheelchair

        all because..yeah you aint gonna believe this..he was waving a pen!

        the dude was in a wheel chair, a double amutee..with a pen

        oooooo.. thats scary

        Happened in Houston
        the officer was Matthew Jacob Marin, a five-year veteran of the department
        and is a pussy

        • When a police officer orders a person to back off, they should. When they don’t bad things happen. From what I read about this case, there was no argument that the criminal was told to back off, but kept advancing. Give the guy in the wheelchair a Darwin award, great to hear he is out of the gene pool.

          • @9mm…

            I’m of the opinion that if a cop can’t keep his distance from a double-amputee in a wheelchair, waving a pen…perhaps he should find another line of work more suited to his physical capabilities.

      62. Thanks everyone for some great comments! I own a couple (a few…well, some) noisemakers myself, but I’m no expert on them. Always look forward to Mac’s articles on firearms. It brings out the best comments. And a few arguments, but those are fun too!
        Now, back to the truly important things in life… Oklahoma 3 – K State 0, 1st qtr.
        And speaking of contests, and score updates and such, here’s a few more:

        Obama 47, Romney 46 1/2—4th qtr
        BigGovernment 77, Constitution 3—3rd qtr
        IRS 109, Working People 0—Halftime
        Socialism 28, Capitalism 27—4th qtr
        GovCorp Debt 16 Trillion, Our Chilren’s Future 0—Final
        MainStream Media 56, Truth 7—Final
        Tyranny 45, SecondAmendment .45—End Regulation (Going to Overtime)

        • Commies 95
          Non-Commies 5

        • Commies 95
          Non-Commies 5
          4th Quarter

      63. Not that its any surprise but the dog killer cop in michigan got off

        No charges against Mich. officer in dog shooting

        ST. LOUIS, Mich. –
        A mid-Michigan police officer will not be charged for fatally shooting a dog earlier this month.

        Gratiot County Prosecutor Keith Kushion said in a statement he didn’t “find any legal basis to charge” St. Louis police Officer Matt Vanhall “with a crime.”

        • Good lord, it was a DOG. You want someone to get jail time for shooting a dog?

          • 9mm: With the wheelchair and the dog along with 100’s of case’s, A LOT OF LE ARE GETTING VERY TRIGGER HAPPY. Thats just me.

      64. Finally, an article that is reasonable and intelligent, unlike the shrill, hyperbole, propaganda and downright lies that pervade this site which is mostly populated by a rag-tag bunch delusionsals in dire need of medication or removal from the gene pool.

        • @JoeinNC


      65. Home invasion is one one the most serious to consider. Whether to use buck,#4 or birdshot has been a controvercy for a long time. Consider a few more points.

        The type of dewelling you live in and where your loved ones sleep. Hallways with angles where two or more bedroons unite. Split level homes. Consider if your first shot does not kill the intruder and he manages to get behing a solid object like a fridge. Can you shoot through the wall to get him? Using shot can have the riccochet effect, bouncing off hard surfaces.
        Then there are those who own small pets. Ankle biters,yappers and cats mostly, Some have those nocturnal rodents that work the wheels. I include birds as they too can provide distractions at the most unopportuned time. They can provide cover for the intruders movement by covering his sounds.
        Something to think about when your half scared to death.
        The first rule is don’t let them get in.

      66. Gun Show. Gotta go.

      67. Wow! A lot of comments, and I’m coming into the discussion late, so maybe no one will see this, but I had to add my 2 cents.

        @ the author and the comments I reviewed, I saw no discussion regarding choke of the 12 ga. shotgun. If you are using slugs, this becomes important, as you do not want to run a rifled slug (or probably 00 buck) through a full choke. It will blow out your barrel. If you have an adjustable choke, great. Just remember to set it to improved cylinder or cylinder when employing slugs/00 buck.

        As for #4 birdhot, we do a lot of turkey shooting up here, and copper-plated 4 shot in 12 ga. has a tight enough pattern to put a lethal dose in a turkey’s head at 50-60 yards. At home-defense ranges (say 5-10 yards), it will leave a hole the size of a softball or small dinner plate in a solid core door.

        As for the venerable .22, I have given the same advice as the author. You can also buy a .22 caliber upper receiver for an AR platform for about $350, and at that price, you can get a full return on your investment by shooting 1,000 rds of .22 as opposed to 5.56/.223. It is great for training and practice.

        On pistols, my preference long ago turned to .45 over 9mm or .20. I don’t like the snappy recoil of the .40’s, and the 9mm is acceptable, but I prefer the heavier round.

        Best bet? Have ’em all! :0)

      68. Regarding security read the book Surviving in Argentina about the aftermath of their economic collapse. According to the author a handgun was the most useful defensive weapon.

        The book was eye opening.

      69. @Kevin2
        The info about a gun ban under a U.N. Treaty is in the archieves at Alex Jones Infowars. No mention about body armor restrictions. The news being what it is, they could have found it not news worthy. Hard to tell. I think it made it on Drudge too.
        Yeah, just want to make it hard to get me in the end.

      70. slingshot

        If an international treaty banned body armor that can stop a rifle bullet it would have made news.

        The reason behind such a restriction is obvious being that damn few criminals use a rifle and all all governments do.

        Alex Jones and others would have been all over this.

        I think it’s a sales tactic.

        I dislike dishonesty. Salesmen……..


      71. Good advice on protecting what you own. But let’s not forget that in the case of New Orleans it was your supposed “defenders” that actually confiscated weapons and shot people carrying them. As if we have the deceased here to speak on their behalf and so are forced to swallow the story fed to us.

      72. I belive in knock down cold stone dead intruders. Not scaring or injuring them so they will run away. I will drag there lifeless bodies out and put them at the far edge of the property to show others who might try to come my way what is waiting for them.

      73. Most people can’t afford body armor along with all the other items of gear/guns/ammo/food that preppers aquire.

        There is a marine making armor plates that are stand alone level 3 formed plates with coating to defend against spalling or splash.

        Targetman armor for $211 you get 4 plates formed & coated delivered to your door. I noticed that other plate makers just painted theirs so you had to buy soft kevlar or level 3A vest to protect against spall/splash.

        I bought a set for the whole family then my next challenge was a carrier but nobody makes them in woodland camo so I found Beez combat systems they custom make your carrier for no extra charge to accomodate any plates.

        I got 5 carriers for the 5 sets of hard armor that I bought for family & I paid $199 delivered for my carriers a piece so I armored up each family member for $400 level 3 with spalling protection which made armor affordable.

        I had a great connection for SDS warrior helmets brand new for $180 plus $9 delivery anywhere in the country but he ran out of them but a great price for sure I bought 5 of them so the whole family is armored up.

      74. Number 4 buck is a good compromise between birdshot and the larger buck luke 000, 00, 0, etc. It is comprised of a payload of shot about the size of a soft air pellet. 4 shot is half the size of a bb and 00 buck has about the same diameter of a shelled peanut.
        I use number 4 buck when coyote hunting. It would put a man down! It also may not overpenetrate walls, etc. although i have never tested it.

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