Beyond Collapse: Surviving and Rebuilding Civilization From Scratch (Free Download)

by | Nov 24, 2012 | Emergency Preparedness | 356 comments

Do you LOVE America?


    The following excerpt from Beyond Collapse: Surviving and Rebuilding Civilization From Scratch has been graciously provided by author TJ Miller. You may know TJ by his online persona, Odd Questioner. He has been a long-time friend and contributor to this web site, as well as many other preparedness communities. As his handle suggests, TJ takes a different approach to the ‘problem’ of surviving when the system as we know it falls apart.

    Sure, you can stock up food, and guns and thousands of dollars worth of other supplies – but if that’s your entire plan, then you’re going to be in serious trouble, especially if we’re talking about a paradigm shift spanning years or decades.

    Supplies eventually run out and Murphy’s law often turns the best laid plans into catastrophe. If you haven’t taken the time to explore all of the possibilities and how you may deal with them as they happen, then in all likelihood you will be, as TJ notes in his book, “as good as dead and/or exploited.”

    Beyond Collapse is an extensive guide, covering everything from why we should prepare, how a collapse may happen, what civilization may look like in its aftermath, and what steps you can take to not only prepare ahead of time, but how you’ll survive and thrive during the reconstruction and rebuilding that follow.

    Excerpted from Beyond Collapse: Surviving and Rebuilding Civilization From Scratch:

    The idea of this book is simple: Get you up to speed on some basic bits to stay alive and rebuild a working society. We want to get you started in gathering needed provisions (and references) to survive a collapse and its immediate aftermath, but then give you a series of resources that you can refer to, in order to help you along after the dust settles. After all, you probably won’t need or be able to use it all immediately. Things in here may be a bit intellectual or crazy at times, and I apologize in advance if it sounds that way. On the other hand, I want to drive the point home, and I want to be as precise and as factual as I can. Most of all, I want this book to do more than just help the individual survive. It takes a community to rebuild civilization, and that community is going to need help and at least some practical guidance.

    Unlike most survival/preparation resources, we’re going to assume that civilization will break down completely, and will likely take at least a century or more to return to the level it is now. In such a situation, that electrical generator which too many experts recommend will end up being a glorified lawn ornament (unless of course you feel like making/storing an ocean of fuel and storing a mountain of spare parts…) The idea of having a small backyard garden is a good start, but it’s not going to feed you and your family all by itself. Expensive water filters are a good convenience while things are all chaotic, but eventually the filter elements are going to wear out, and you’re stuck with having to make your own clean water from then on. Solar panels can work for up to and beyond three decades, but the inverter, batteries, and electronics you plug into it probably won’t. Anything that relies on batteries (even rechargeable ones) are guaranteed to be worthless once the battery chemicals wear out, and there are no more to be had. Guns? A good idea for the more chaotic times, but eventually the bullets will run out, leaving you (and everyone else) with, at best, a bunch of clumsy clubs made from steel and wood. Any advice that relies on buying and storing something should only be counted as either temporary, or the (sometimes literal) seeds of renewable items, be it tools, weapons, or wheat. Some items will be vital in spite of their being temporary, but some will help you make a permanent means of living long-term after it all settles down.

    We’re going to break it down into some sections, (loosely) based on…

    • Why you should be reading this book (and more importantly, doing something about it)
    • things to do beforehand
    • things to do and expect when the balloon goes up
    • things to do and expect immediately afterward (for up to six months after civilization crashes)
    • things to do short-term (for the first two years)
    • things to do long-term (everything beyond that second year)
    • the distant future (where we get all misty-eyed – or, well, how to really build a new civilization)
    • Recipes for critical items (for all the vital bits that you will want to use)
    • Appendices (Resources: shopping lists, post-collapse scrounging lists, websites to visit and print off, etc)

    The good news is, you don’t have to read the whole book right now (and given its size, who would really want to?) You can safely read and absorb the first three or four ‘Books’, and save the rest for later, when you really need it. Definitely read and put into practice the first one, Things To Do Beforehand. The second two, While The Balloon Goes Up and Immediately Afterward, you will want to be familiar enough with so that when things do go ‘splat’ on a global scale, you’ll at least have some idea of what to do. Also make up the scrounging lists. The others are a bit of far-in-advance ideas and suggestions, which are perfectly suitable for reading by the fireplace, and hammering out with the leadership of whatever new community you build afterwards.

    We’re not going to go into ridiculous detail on everything, but I do want to give you at least enough information to have a reasonable chance of survival, and even doing that will be quite a bit in and of itself. I want to give you things to think about, and things to consider, so that you can prepare in advance, and have what you need. More importantly, you won’t have to become an expert in all of these fields, but will be started in the right direction, and when needed will be pointed to resources which will help you stock up your library. The library is going to be rather important because later, when the turmoil has somewhat subsided, you can focus on learning in-depth those things you need to know by then.

    A note from author TJ Miller:

    The reason I’m giving the book away is two-fold.

    First, I want as many people to be aware of what’s coming, and to prepare for it. I don’t need to become a wealthy man in order for that to happen, so I gave it away in addition to having it printed. The second reason has to do with the fact that I really cannot tolerate having vital information being locked behind “digital rights management” and other crap. If it gets passed around, it gets passed around.

    The free version can be had here:

    If you like it, please visit the Amazon link (below) and drop off a word or two about it as a review. Even if you do not buy it, please let me know what you think (either below, or give me a shout in the forums).

    I also give you perfect permission to print as many physical copies as you can. After all, electricity and computers rely on civilization to remain functional… but when civilization goes, so will the electricity and computers (well, eventually). So yes, printing this out is a very good idea. However, printing out a 450-some-odd-page book will consume a lot of paper and printer ink, employers will frown on you pushing it through their equipment, and trying to print it off at the local Office store will be pricey.

    So, to save you a bit of money and time, I had it published.

    You can purchase a cheaper and more useful copy of it that way – I have it up at Amazon:

    or if you don’t like to use Amazon for some reason, CreateSpace (my publisher) also sells it:

    So… why this book and not someone else’s? I actually recommend James Rawles’ How To Survive the End Of The World As We Know It, among other books (listed in the back of my own). It is always good to get multiple opinions and analysis on such a subject, because no one person has all the answers. All of us look at this thing from different angles, and bring different benefits to the table.

    As for me? Many of you know me on this site by now, but maybe I should add a few words…

    I’m very allergic to conspiracies, and they really don’t help you survive what’s coming. There’s going to be plenty enough to do when it all comes down, and I wanted to write something that ordinary folks could put to good use. I prefer to keep a quiet eye on the news, and contrary to what National Geographic may portray, I don’t dance around the woods wearing camouflage or tote an AR-15 in my spare time. I disguise my drills as fun activities that normal folks do, and I keep my prepping to myself. Even close friends and neighbors who do prep do not know the full extent of what I’ve been up to, but as I help them along (and to be honest, as they help me along), we all learn more, do more, and we have a good time doing it.

    I do know that prepping is gaining widespread adoption in our society.

    62,000+ unique downloads (not counting other sites folks may have hosted it on) tell me there are a lot of people who want to know more, and want to do more. I want to help that happen.

    The more of us overall who prepare, the less we will have to worry about on an individual basis once it does go ‘splat. There are going to be enough folks out there who will end up without, and we’re going to need all the help we can get.

    Get it in PDF Format (FREE) (442 Pages; 7.25 Megabytes)

    Put it in your home library:

    Buy Beyond Collapse at ($18.99) (456 pages)

    Buy Beyond Collapse at Createspace ($18.99) (456 pages)


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      1. Thank you for not charging people for information on how to survive, I look forward to reading this , your hard work and dedication is appreciated!

        • Eventually supplies will run out, that is a fact.

          I have been out of touch for the past few days thinking about how Thankful I am and giving thanks to my provider.   

          We are all here on borrowed time. We do the best that we can with what we have to work with. Thanks for all the tips on how to better ourselves.

          • Supplies are only a buffer to allow yourself time to adapt to the new world.

            Sitting in your bunker, waiting for the S to stop hitting the fan so you can go back outside and get your old office job back is not an option.

            When the means to re-engage with society presents itself you’d best hit the ground running because otherwise, after your supplies finally run out, you’ll find yourself months or years behind the folks who took the first opportunity to start fresh. Pick a useful trade and learn it now if you can. The first blacksmith in town will be a very welcome man, but the second will not be so popular…

          • Ill read this and add it to my library.

            But a book that every serious preper should have is “Wagners Chemical Technology 1872” It contains none technology methodes of manufacturing almost anything you would find a need to have with 1872 era technology.

          • Only 100 years and you are out of supplies? Tsk tsk,  Had I been with Custer I’d still be shooting.  The “Twinkee ” shortage is a bother I’ll admit/

        • Made it all the way to the part where the cheaper and more useful book was for sale and stopped there. Do I really think this person has my best interest in mind????????????????? 

          • OQ offered the free download. My take is that if you want a paper copy for your “hands on” library it would be cheaper to buy the book instead of the added expense of copy paper and printer ink.

          • @DPS:

            The man gave you a FREE, downloadable copy right on this page.

            Doesn’t get much cheaper than that.

            Should he PAY you to download it, and help yourself, or should he send you a copy, postage paid, to your house?

            THANK YOU, Mr. Miller, and THANK YOU, SHTFPLAN.


          • We can always count on one of the resident looters to complain about the someone else might reap the fruits of their labor.  Never mind that the author posted an entirely free version of it available for download.  No……he’s some kind of evil capitalist because he has a “paid for” version.

            What a hypocrite.  Tell me DPS…….do you work for free?  Or perhaps you don’t work at all….just sit on your ass all day and wait for the government check to which you are entitled.

            What a troll you are.

          • DPS:

            You are more than welcome to print out the downloaded copy, and even print copies of it for your friends. I have no problems with you doing that… and to be honest, I encourage you to pass around as many electronic copies as you can, and if you feel like working your printer out? So long as you don’t sell copies of it, feel free to give away as many copies as you can print.

            Hope that helps clarify things.

            • One more thing I really need to add…

              Guys, I’m really humbled by the response everyone poured out today. It is astounding that so many people are prepping out there. 

              All day today the download site has been maxed out at 50 simultaneous users. I added an alternate site (there’s a click on the “Regular Download” button and a captcha, but it’s free), which I hope helps relieve pressure a bit for anyone not able to get in.

              In all seriousness, if anyone needs to be thanked, it’s you. You, the reader. You, Mac, the gent who kindly posted word. You, the fellow grunts on this site who keep me on my toes, keep me honest, and most of all, teach me far more than I can ever teach anyone.

              Whenever I mosey over here, there are a lot of you I wish to hell would live in Oregon, somewhere close by… it would make life much easier when it all goes down. As it is, I just have to do what I must, with whomever is around me… and so far it bears good fruit.

              • I’m an exAmerican in Canada and I am so prepped for this, it will hit everywhere and come with lightning speed, people have no idea how severe and horrific things will be. This has been forecast for years, and we now know some of the more detailed aspects of what to look for. Thank you so much for this download, I shall be reading it soon. God help us.

        • thanks for sharing! just started reading and already am absorbed. had to stop to thank tj for having the commitment to write this book… maybe if finances allow we can buy this book for ourselves as an xmas gift. when technology fails was the last “survial” book i was compelled to spend money on, but   a hard copy  of this seems so far well worth it! worth more than gold, is useful applicable info!

        • Not a single one of us knows when, nor how long, a collapse of any nature will last….

          given that the federal reserve and other central banks have more schemes up their sleeves than we know of…but the financial underpinnings are surely fraudulent to the core and their repackaging of toxic debt knows no bounds nor is it constrained by anyone,govt or regulators, worldwide.

          Sooner or later the house of cards will fall..but surely if we are discussing it, then they are as well and have plan B  in place..never underestimate the banksters..ever!



          • Possee, et al:   I read the online book.  Me and other retirees are hoping we  are dead of old age before all this happens.  The younger people will blame and possibly hate their elders for  allowing  collapse, and not being aware/not caring  to stop it  and will prove most all patriot groups are failures and only interested in their egos and  whatever money leaders can make running  these groups. Few org. are sincere.   Many groups for over fifty years one eighty yr old man told me and what have they really done??  The Elite clique has ruined the country…Be aware of the small arms treaty, the last nail in the coffin.

        • MAC i just got back from Tampa Fla. ans was going thru the subjects saw your picture of the t.s.a. agent,,that cannot be one,,,arm is in wrong end,,,,

          btw thanks bud


        • Although I was very interested in your article and good, valid points…

          Something is fishy about this “Free” download… I just wasted 30 minutes trying to download the actual PDF file. It has you go to sites, sign up for various “free” software downloads… then once you do the file is not there or downloadable.

          I found the actual doc on Google docs to be locked, so you can’t download it directly.

          I just uninstalled all the apps that were required for this “FREE” download.

          What a joke.

          If you want to make it free, then supply a link to the actual PDF file and stop wasting people’s time. Thank you.



          • bob, the links should be pointing directly to a google docs PDF download, so no software will be installed upon downloading.. since it is a pdf then adobe acrobat reader (free) is required to view it, so if that wasnt on your computer already your browser might prompt you for that.

            nothing fishy here, OQ has offered this 100% free.



            • Thanks Mac for all you do. I have learned so much from your site and all the contributors here and have used this info recently to help get my nieces and brother going on prepping at least starting. And making them aware of what really is going on around them. I tried thirty + years ago to warn people about where we were headed, didn’t want to listen then, now a small per cent are listening, doing….is something else.

              Thank you and everyone else for all the invaluable info


              • Thanks for your kind words Hawk. I’m glad we all have a place to go where we can share ideas and strategies and general banter!

                Take Care,


          • Hi Bob,

            I just downloaded it from the link in the article without anything else needing to be installed. The PDF file works fine.

            @OQ/TJ: Thanx so very much for all that you have given to me and everyone else on this site. 



          • If you click on file at the top you will open it up and at the bottom of the list you open it says download, Click on it and it will download. I did not have any problems or have to download anything else to get my free copy.

      2. Thanks TJ and Mac.  I found this and started reading it lastweek.  There is a lot of thought provoking information in here.  

      3. @ All,

             A note to all attempting to download this file from the first listed link above; unlike most pdf files which allow for the downloading of the complete file from the ‘save as’ component of the browser window this file must – apparently – be downloaded from the menuing system within the immbed. Go to the first menu then scroll down to the listed ‘download’ label the entire file will thereafter be transferred to you computer. This may – ort may not – be an artifact of the some ‘new’ adobe update, I’ve never seen this format before. That said, excellent work OC by the look of it! 

            I am also of the opinion that any ‘Fall’ at this point is going to be fundamentlly catastrophic … our culture has not only become completely dependant on all that is ‘electrical’ but has effectively forgotten those skill’s neccessary to constitute a viable ‘fall-back’- position. It’s not simply enough for a few people to have/possess these basic knowledge’s inasmuch as physically, these people can’t be ‘everywhere’ at once. Said skill’s, aggregated in a few, will serve the greater whole poorly to say the least. I fear that the results of any lapse in ‘what is’ will most likely be multigenerational… a sad and horrifying thought indeed.

            Many thanks TJ!!!!!

        • already is multigenerational.  How many folks in any office could build a fire or dress out fresh game. If it is not wrapped in plastic most folks don’t have a clue.

          • @ large,

               Too true my friend, exactly.

          • Depends on the office. I’d say nearly everyone of the 25 people I work with. Some better then others, but all would manage.

            Surond yourself with like minded people, and increase your odds.

            The book looks awsome, I’ll probably add it to the library.

            • Ha!, consider yourself amongst the ‘blessed’ then. I’m not sure if -by your post – you work in an ‘office’ or not, but I know of few in an office environment who can do thusly as a group. Lucky indeed are you!

        • Thank you, J1G – for the how-to!!!!  I was not having good luck before I read your comment!

          ~ D

          • HI DAISY!,


                Stroka-luck actually, tried to download it -as I usually would – from the browser ‘save as..’ just downloaded one page of the whole…went lookin’ after that.

               How was your ‘Turkey Day’? Good, I hope. 🙂 As I have already admitted here (elsewhere on the board) my resolution to NOT eat to EXCESS this year failed miserably….20 some-odd ‘Tums’ and 15 hours later I began to feel like a ‘Homo Sapiens’ again! How’s your weather ‘up there’…ours has turned a bit colder here, though not as yet full-bore winter.

               Anywho, am trying to compose the ‘Evening Solar Report’ gotta go for now. 🙂

            • Turkey Day was lovely, thank you for asking.  My kitchen looked as though a chocolate factory blew up so it was a definite success.   🙂  

              It was very very cold and windy here today and I located the source of several drafts and got them blocked.  Brrrr….my tootsies may never thaw out again!

              Keep warm!

              ~ D

              • “looked like a chocolate factory blew up….” Wow, that’s quite an image I see in my mind! I DO know of your affinity for chocolate though! 🙂  Goof luck with the ‘tootsies’…my Mom always used to call them ‘piglets’……

              • @ Daisy:

                cold and windy but clear here in Maine yesterday after the morning rain passed through…  i got our 2 kerosene heaters out and fired them up to make sure we’d have heat jic…  can’t be too cautious…

                • Another Mainer on the site, looks like there are a few of us now!!!

              • haha, it wasnt “very very cold” diasy. it will be very very cold in a month or two though!

                • Eeder – it was 18 degrees Fahrenheit  –  once it gets to that temp and lower, it is very very cold to me!  You can’t see me, but I’m sticking my tongue out at you right now!!!!  😀 

        • JOG, thanks for the heads up on the download link. I updated the post above to point directly to the PDF itself as opposed to the ‘intro’ page with the ‘download’ link. 

      4. I have Berkey filters good for 6000 gallons, and extras.

        Do the math @ 2 gallons a day…I’ll have filtered water for a looooog time.

        Purified, clean, chlorinated water.  And don’t forget the 4 bags of calcium hypochlorite @ 20,000 gallons per bag. 


        • I agree that filters can be useful, and even vital for awhile.

          On the other hand, you would be amazed at how quickly a family of three will burn through 6,000 gallons of water for drinking and cooking. 😉

          The point wasn’t that you should ignore stocking up… the more the merrier. Thing is, eventually it all wears out, and you will have to make for yourself, no? I have backpacking filters in my bug-out bags that are allegedly good (and even guaranteed) for up to a literal one million gallons of water, but I know full well that daily use would wear out the parts in fairly short order. Don’t get me wrong – Berkey is an excellent brand, but no one can credibly say that they will still be using one 10 years post-collapse…

      5. mmmmmmmmmmmmmm…………………………… think,think, think!!

      6. Ditto what Diesel Dan says. I too am allergic to conspiracy theories. All I know is that the way things are going, something is going to break and  there is also the possibility of some sort of catastrophic event either man made or from nature.

        Either way the more info you have the better. Also a good note, I read  a lot of posts about stocking supplies. But what I don’t think a lot of people, including some on this site do is practice using what you got.

        There are a couple of big ticket items I have on my list. One is a generator converted to propane, and the other is reloading equipment. Right now the reloading equipment is the priority. I can do without electric, but I think being able to resupply the ammo will be the bigger commodity.

        With that, I also want to learn to make my own bullets out of lead and make gunpowder. Those are two things that I believe will be invaluable among other things.

        As for the future post SHTF I think the first six to twelve months will be the cleansing period. Anyone around after that will hopefully be intelligent enough to work with the remaining others. I think a century is too long of time to rebuild, but it will depend on the amount of knowledge that is still around and the availability and /or production of the resources necessary.

        Which is way I am grateful for the download and ability to print to hard copy. I think that is what will making the rebuilding even harder is that to much of the much needed information is digital. When the SHTF, there won’t be a lot information available and/or the people with the necessary education to use it.

        • Propane great for short term. Instead go long term add a small still make ethanol

          • GO STEAM POWER –

            * coal wood cow dung chips powered boiler type – steam power engines would be best , very adaptable to modern day vehicles boats generators propulsion systems and uses all natural mixed fuels .

            ~N.O. ;0P

            • STEAM !  now  thats a fine example of a great tecnology. That no one now days understands how to use.

              Okay my bad, no one outside of this community

              • @fbp-L Fool … “Small Minds … Build Small Cages !”

                I’m actually trained as a small engine / car repair mechanic , tig welder and I use to help a friend build his hobby steam engines for shows and woodstove boiler systems for home heating / hot water use .

                I sure even though it’s been 20 years … I could figure it out .  Even build myself a steam powered drivable work cart .

                So ummmmmmmm … go Puck Yourself @fbp-L … ya’ small minded Dimtard !

                ~N.O. ;0P  

                • I’m wiser.  I surround myself with people that are experts in all fields. Just like they look for people like me with engineering, Medical, and leadership skills. 

                  Plus I can always find a lawn mover fixer that graduated from a online teck school,

                  Try again you seem to not be getting any new supporters. Only the old guard comes to your rescue. People are waking up. Your post are failing and shortly will be gone. The losing side usually does desperate things.

                  Survive its death.

                  • wrong again , you silly silly little man. i have this picture of what you look and sound like. its really funny.

                    • 115 pounds soaking wet, 5’3  Coke bottle glasses and always with an inhaler in my hand. Very hard to miss me. Plus you can tell my Ma Ma dressed me.

                  • tell us, who is included in the “new guard”? how will you get rid of the old guard? hows the weather in boca raton today? have you considered going back to the homeland soon, so you can be part of the fun? why do you hide in the boc? go to lucifer facebook. run to the light it is in , you know! Jerusalem! or just stay in telaviv. either way you will experience a sure fireworks show.much better than fourth of july!

                    • You are just pissing in the wind. Your time line suck. Let see we said childhood.

                      Now I am only in Minnesota, Washington and Arizona, if you are not following the story let someone else come to the fight. You should prep if you wish to debate me.

                    • eeder,

                      Having grown up in South Florida myself, (Coral Springs) I can tell you that it’s a melting pot like everywhere else. Face Books comes from Ft. Lauderdale not Boca. In fact there are a great many of your fellow countrymen from Canada that live in Boca.  I married a girl who is 100% Italian from Ft. Lauderdale.  I’m Cuban American, so what?

                      I guess you are trying to paint him as jewish?  Big deal if he is/isn’t.

                      The rest is all nonsense, old guard/new guard/left guard..blah blah blah.


                    • America is a melting pot. The scum floats to the top.

                  • @fbp-L Fool your a puckin idiot is what you are … the only thing your surrounded by is empty prozac bottles … what amazes me is mac salvo allows you to even post here … you are destroying this website … its obvious thats your goal … as you bring not one creditable helpful prepper bit of info to this website but your bullsheeit and lies .

                    * one of these days your going to look behind yourself …

                    ~N.O.  ;0P

                    • I truly believe if you came up behind you. I would laugh in your face. And as you did you would most likely crying at my 115 pds of might. Or is that one of my dogs weight. I keep getting them mixed up.

                      Boy you don’t want a piece of this and the internet keep it all in fum. Because when I in MN. I hate even getting close to that bullshit school of yours.

                    • Dude your spinning out

                      “you came up behind you” WTF is that?

                      the second sentance is fucked up too…hey stop drunk posting

                    • I saw that to. I figured I would go unnoticed due to my normal lack of skill with words.   Hell I do better when I am “Drunk Posting”

                    • I believe it may have been Hemingway that said, “Write drunk, edit sober.”

                  • FBP ~

                    You simply are not in touch with reality. Your posts get more thumbs down than anyone else’s.  Even DK’s comments are more popular than yours.  (DK: you know I love ya, but facts are facts!)

                    NinaO is well-liked by many people here, and not just the “old guard” as you call it.  

                    I really think you might have some interesting things to offer this site – it’s a shame that through your jealously of NinaO you have focused on harassing him instead of sharing your knowledge.  

                    Please consider trying this for a week:  (just a week – not forever!)  Try following the adage “If I can’t say something nice, I’m not going to say anything at all.”  That doesn’t mean you have to agree with everyone, but you don’t have to make snarky mean comments.  Agree respectfully. Ditch the stalking and the personal attacks. I think that you will find you receive a lot fewer thumbs down.  

                    Trust me. This will work far better than creating another persona.  (I’m an editor – I recognized your unique syntax and specific types of errors as soon as you made up the new identity.)

                    ~ D

                    • Daisy what new identity. I use only one.  FBP.    Is there someone who is as poorly skilled as I am at Grammar and spelling.

                      And I am not jealous of Nina. It just the crap.   People hating stuff. The waste of time with the jiggly girls. And who is the first to go to the name calling. Not me. I have found you challenge someone and they resort to the words nina uses. They are either reading from a script or are so poorly prepared for a debate they have no knowledge of the subject.

                      I would suggest how Nina just be a semi normal poster.   If you notice when he does. Everyone does read it and quite offen are given some new information.    Or do you truly support his attitude toward women and people.

                      I truly would love to know who sounds like me.    When I start my new handle I will announce it so I can join the party that I am sure will happen.


                    • FBP ~  

                      I’m not getting sucked into a conversation about the pros and cons of NinaO . I will say that he has been a gentleman when addressing me on this site and he has never made me feel uncomfortable, even when we have differences of opinion.

                      The constant infighting and harassment are tearing us down as a group. If I was a new reader and saw some of the comments going back and forth, I’d leave and never look back.

                      If you don’t like what NO has to say, then skip over it.  You are compelled to respond to EVERYTHING HE POSTS and it’s ridiculous.  You had begun doing it to me, and you may have noticed that I refused to answer any of your questions because I don’t cooperate with coercion and harassment.  I noticed today that you have backed off, which I appreciate.

                      Just please, try to be nice or just say nothing – try to offer something instead of constantly taking away.  When someone has a gun question you are always one of the first to offer advice.  I don’t know enough about the kind of guns you guys discuss to know whether or not it’s good advice but the positive intent is there.

                      Just be nice and leave NO alone.  Let the thumbs sort it out. 

                      ~ D

                    • Old French adage,

                          “To speak kindly does not hurt the tongue…”

                    • Always tell the truth even if it hurts.

              • Nuclear Machinist Mate 2nd class…. steam technology is part of the classes. Than and my wife’s grandfather was a steam boiler mechanic for Pioneer Village here in Nebraska. I helped him rebuild and construct everything from steam threshers to power shovels. They ain’t pretty (unless you love old technology like me) but can rebuild everything. Learn everything you can because you neverknow when it will come in useful.

                • Pioneer village, great place to visit!

                  I actually envy you being able to work on that great old equipment.

            • Off Grid Heating: Rocket Mass Heaters

               ”Rocket mass heaters” in a nutshell:

              • heat your home with 80% to 90% less wood
              • exhaust is nearly pure steam and CO2 (a little smoke at the beginning)
              • the heat from one fire can last for days
              • you can build one in a day and half
              • folks have built them spending less than $20





              • I’m very interested in the rocket mass heater!


          • Still trying to find a good set of still instructions or a place to buy a quality still.

        • I think better to forget the generator, may be helpful short term, even the reloading stuff, im just as guilty,  have all that stuff too, but am seeing the benefit of thinking more like early 1800s survival, am thinking good knives, spear points, the water purifyer and tons of extra filters are indespensible though, there are lots of old school items, long bow, or a recurve, maybe a few of them or more, with lots of parts or extras, learn traditional techniques for making all that stuff, maybe stockpile bow string in rolls and bundled arrow stock broadheads and fletching etc, a bullet is 1 use, a bow with good arrows, way longer useable life,   hand tools for wood working, planes, chisels, scrapers,  good cross cut and ripping saws, files, axes, stones,  blacksmith tools, even if you cant get coal for firing, you can heat with wood,  if you need medicines your most likely just screwed eventually unless natural stuff can suffice, being able to grow food will be essential, and knowing how to smoke meat or dry it good too but salt may be hard to come by, thats why veggies  were so important in the old days,  grains, potatoes, squashes, onions,  greens and stuff depends on your climate, fruits ets,, i live on Maui so season means nothing, can grow year round, biggest problem is water, climate is all messed up and its real dry,  so for many relocation is going to be a necessary action, cant grow anything without water and if it isnt falling from the sky there may be none, anyway, just rambling, sorry

          • Kulafarmer ~

            I’m a big fan of the recurve bow.  Claymation, who also posts on here, sent me a link to a really great how-to site for making your own bows.  You might get some useful information here.  I like the site because it doesn’t rely on power tools – although there are a few things that aren’t in the average toolbox that might be good to acquire now while you can.


            I’m pretty jealous of your beautiful climate today – snowing, windy and cold here!

            ~ D

            • Thanks for posting up the link for the bow build. I’m a bow hunter and use both a compound and a recurve. I don’t know if I’ll build a bow anytime soon but who knows.

          • Right here along with what kula was talking abotu great site flip thru read and print 🙂


            Books liek Primitive technology 1 and 2 great books to have also 🙂

        • I agree. A century is probably too long. Our species, and in particular Americans and some others (excuse my arrogance) seem to be truly driven when the need exists.


          One upside to such an occurrence is the elimination of many government entity’s. Building dept, water dept, etc. (List to long) This will likely make some individuals more responsible and resilient.

          Perhaps in such a collapse, we will all be reminded to do unto others as we  wo…………………..well, you know.



          • Just to add another comment on rebuilding. If you have a chance to visit Greenfield Village in Dearborn, MI. They have the Wright bros. original bicycle shop, complete with all the tools they used to make the parts for their airplane. Very interesting.

            And yes I thought about steam engines. They have a big steam engine show every summer near my old home. I’m an engineer and very resourceful, once it settles down, I’ll be doing all I can to pass on the knowledge and assist in every way I can.

            • In Buckley? 

              • That is where I was thinking. Go northern Mi

                • Are you close?

          • I would like to add my observation to the discussion.

            As for creds;  Owned and operated auto repair shop 15+ years, worked as industrial electrician,boiler installer, plumber, mason,carpenter, welder and fabricator, hvac troubleshooter, generator technician. ( can’t make up my mind, bored easily!) . And don’t have space for the rest.

            Here goes; Products now are “magic boxes” designed and manufactered by relativiley small goups of specialists, very few who understand the device in it’s entirety. Autos, for example, after 100+ years to refine the internal combustion engine are almost foolproof. So much so, the engines are now covered with shells to make them look pretty. Tune-ups are a thing of the past, and have been for some time. Consequently, the “modern man” ( term not used in a sexist conotation) doesn’t understand what is going on under the hood. Most of the current generation couldn’t describe the basics of the engines function. In days past, youngsters tinkered by desire or curiosty. Now, just gas up and go. When it breaks, throw it away and get a new one. No fixing. No understanding of what makes it tick. Oh, and sometimes a light comes on, and you put in some oil, or air up the tire. Or most likely, have and old guy like me do it for you, because they can’t even find the dipstick.

            One of the biggest challenges when I operated the auto repair, was finding qualified techs. For brevity, the folks with the required skillset(s) did not want to work in a “garage”.

            I’m 50. And I’m out there every day. I see it. Very few “rennisiance men” remain. Electricity comes from the thingy in the wall. Water comes from the faucet, and always does.  Cars don’t even require a key; walk up, it unlocks, get in, push a button and go. With no idea what is going on under the hood. The “average person” is lost in the technology of this world, and will really suffer when their smart phone stops working.

            Very interesting times, these are. What I see is technology outpacing human ability to adapt, and find your place in the world. It takes so few, to produce so much. The supply/demand equation has been disrupted. And with tech moving so fast, we can’t get our bearings, and settle into a system that works. A system where people can go into the world, do a usefull task, get compensated , and be a self-suffient cog in the big machine. I think that’s why so many are out of work, and the government is trying to pick up the slack. I don’t like this road. And for once, I don’t even have a thought on how to proceed. Not even a thought.

            • @ Rick:),

                ” Products now are “magic boxes” designed and manufactered by relativiley small goups of specialists…”

                  Oh God….isn’t it the truth. Herein lies my terror in the event of a SHTF….nothing can be repaired, nothing is designed to be repaired! It is literally, the case that, all the marvelous technological advances which have come to pass over the last 75 years will be effectively ‘nullified’ when the awesome support/manufacturing base from which they spring ceases to exists.

                   I don’t have actual ‘nightmares’ per se, but if I did this would be the one I would have every night…upon night…after night…..

            • I feel it Rick…The farthest I got into computer control vehicle systems was taking the codes off my OBD1 pickup with a jumper wire. In my younger days I could port the heads on my 400ci Pontiac, rebuild the Quadrajet and rebuild a small block Chevy on the shed workbench. I have gotten old and fallen behind the times. If you can’t fix it with a little help from a Chilton manual I’m pretty much  lost. As for the tech outpacing us, that is only because the unproductive paper pushers at the top don’t use it to better the common man….instead they use it to build vast killing networks and financial sucking machines. Imagine if all these bright young engineers would put their knowledge into useful pusuits instead of  hiring out to the money masters to program complex algorithms for their computers that skim the wealth from the country.

            • Hello

              I agree that there are very few who are able to adapt in the event of total social meltdown… us old folks will be of value to teach what we know to the young ones.  This was extremely important many years ago, but the tendency to teach the young the basics has long gone by the wayside……even the simplest of skills will be vastly valued … herbalism, spinning, candle making, animal husbandry, gardening, basic carpentry skills, etc…..once the initial shock has worn off people will be looking for nearby leaders to advise them and help them to learn how to continue…..I am a lover of books and for some time have been collecting all types just so people will have some enjoyment and education.  My hope is that most people will be able to survive the shock of the “change” and be able to pick themselves up so that our Nation can begin anew…..with the help of our “upstairs” Patron……

            • Thanks, Rick – for so eloquently stating and summarizing what I have tried to explain to a few of my extremely hard-headed, gadget and gizmo obsessed White male friends for the last 20 or so years.

              These guys, and most in their general age group, seem as if they have some kind of demonic, compulsive-obsessive disorder that is inside them that drives them to constantly want to latch onto and become dependent upon EVERY new piece of technology that hits the consumer market.  If it ain’t High Tech and the Latest, then, By Golly, it just ain’t worth having…..seems to be their motto.

              In my case, my basic personality is one that drives me to resist becoming anymore dependent upon gadgets and gizmos and high tech electronic toys than is absolutely necessary.    Lo-Tech is what I prefer about 75-80 percent of the time, and I truly do pity these nitwits who have become slaves to their gadgets.

              Having said that, I would most certainly miss the Internet, should it disappear.     But, then I remember that I once got along just fine before it was invented – so, I know I could make the adjustment and go back to living without it.




        • A century is too long? When the Roman empire collapsed they lost so much knowledge during and after their collapse, it was 1500 years before concrete was “re-invented” Mankind literally forgot the basics, like bathing daily. It was only the last few decades that mankind has started bathing on a regular basis again. All knowledge could be lost in less than a couple of generations. 

          • True, but how much of that knowledge back then was written down? How many people even knew how to read? Like I said earlier it will depend on how much of that knowledge and the resources will  still be available.

          • @ CoB,

                DING, DING, DING….Folks, we have a winner…and it’s Cede or Bleed!

                Absolutely, most haven’t acquainted themselves with history enough to realize that the ‘Dark Ages’ were just a footnote to everything that happened after the “Pax Romana” failed….Oh God, here we GO AGAIN!!

      7. OQ, thank you for those links and I’ve already bookmarked the pdf version; I’ll look forward to reading it. One thing I’ve learned in all my time of being a prepper is that you can never have too much information on the subjects related to survival and preparedness. I’m still prepping and expect to be aal the way to the moment of REAL SHTF. braveheart

        • Yep, prepping, an on-going thing.

          I received my solar oven (put it off as long as I could), steel coffee perculator (for a fire), and super siphons..:-)–well, ya never know!!!

          And still waiting for the industrial work pants!!

          • Please explain a “super siphon” jayjay.

      8. it seems a little like making lite of basic preps (guns, batteries, generators)

        it’s these things that will get you to that second wave of survival (2 years down range)

        As you get further into the apocalypse, your backyard garden overtakes your neighbors yard. Mostly because they didn’t prepare and he isn’t there.

        Use what you can as long as you can, then adjust.

      9. A great service and a great marketing idea!  I can’t wait to start reading–and I suspect I’ll be back to buy the hard copy soon.  Thanks! 

      10. Thank you OQ for the free information. I haven’t looked at it yet but am grateful that there are people still out there that are willing to help their fellow man/woman for the simple sake of wanting to help them without wanting anything in return. I hope your printed version makes you a couple of bucks as well. Nothing wrong with making money, as long as that is not a sole driving force. I don’t comment much on this website and frankly think that some commentors are arrogant idiots. But all in all, they have a right to their voice. Nevertheless this site offers great insight and advice in its articles. Thanks again OQ for your generous contribution.

      11. I expect a collapse, 90% of Americans to die, and the government to regain control within one year. I can’t see it taking 100 years.

        • Same here BC. Let us hope that whatever government that regains control, is NOT that which is in, although incompetent, control now. That statesmen/women of Constitutional education make up the new federal power. Otherwise, the pending civil warfare will develop into a protracted Revolutionary War II to re-establish the founders Constitutional Republic.

          A huge number of the population will die within weeks. The collapse of simple civil hygiene due to general stupidity & ignorance will wipe out more than riots. The “dumbass” factor is epidemic in our society.

          Survive and thrive. Weapons and food stores are a basis. But avoiding the general population will be essential as well. 


        • Question to all..

          How many would eat an unprepped  zombie if you and yours were on the edge of death.

          Yes = Thumbs up

          No = Thunbs down.

          Let see….

          I’ll give a thumbs up…That’s one.


          • How many would eat a “Troll” hors d’oeuvres?

            • Do not eat trolls.  They are the toxic waste of the Internet.

              • once more wrong type of troll.  It is fishing troll not  fictional creature troll.

                • Yes, but it is much easier to bash an ugly creature living under a bridge that a lure being pulled behind a canoe….

        • I read this book a week or two ago.  Places like Somalia and Afghanistan where s already htf give me cause to think the 100 year climb back to civilisation might not be such a bad guess. 

          Just as power always corrupts, it also abhors a vaccuum.  Swap the term gang leader or mafia boss (or politician) for warlord and the you’ll see the pattern for the insane petty power struggles for territory & resources that will ensue once our current system breaks down. Human nature & history show us that a Somalia like period will face Westerners for a while imho.  Technological & agricultural progress is almost impossible under those daily living conditions.

            The last remnants of our current leadership will have supporters stuck in normalcy bias and will be prepped & in possession of decent weaponry to join the fray too.  It is foolish to assume the Bush’s and Obama’s of this world don’t have their well fortified bug out spots already prepped.  There will be a slug it out period for power between the old regime and the new emerging one that will continue for at least a couple of generations in some form or another.

          My Somali neighbour is always telling me I should never underestimate the utter savagery and brutality that lies just beneath the surface of even the most seemingly gentle and sophisticated human being.  I listen to her as most “war stories” are told by men,or societies upper echelons –   not ordinary widows left caring for the kids left behind.  Most of us don’t have the stomach for this type of brutality.

           Dr Robert Hare describes very well how the yes men and pyschopaths have prospered at the expense of those sections of society whose creativity of thought will be so desperately needed as we enter the next major phase in our history.  The yes men or sheople will lose the next round – big time.

          Sadly I see a return to some sort of feudalism, of some sort or another – with ordinary folk tied to the land of their warlord in order to obtain the security needed to raise their kids for a few generations.   

          • lonelonmum, couldn’t agree with your Somali neighbor more. Everytime I hear the words, “We are a civilized nation” I chuckle. Really? What does “civilized” mean? I think it has many levels. From the break point of uncivilized and up? One only has to look at what takes place in this nation everyday. “Black Friday” is one small example for you to realize that the mask of “civilized” can come off very easily.

        • BC,

          Could not agree with you more. TPTB have too much to lose to allow it to slip thru their fingers. What many don’t understand is that money is not power. Paper, gold, silver does not equal power.

          As Mao said, “Power comes from the barrel of a gun” and as long as DC (District of Crimes)  has all of the big guns, they have the BIG  power.

          Unless/Until  some States step up and oppose the man who calls himself  Barack Obama’s radical agenda, the Union will stay intact, life will get worse and less free.

          If a country like Argentina can keep it together after an economic collaspe, the U.S. Government sure as heck can.

          God Bless you B.C.

      12. I skipped ahead and read the part about post-collapse pregnancy and childbirth, and I have to say that I disagree with a lot of it. While in the pre-industrial world, many women died of hemorrhage, the #1 killer was infection.  To say that a C-section is safe “as long as the instruments are clean” is stupid and dangerous. There is a lot more to a C-section than slicing a girl open. The recovery time for a C-section is on average four times longer than the recovery after a vaginal birth. It’s a ton more dangerous in the best of times, and in a post-collapse world it would be absolutely foolish.  And I notice the author did not include any sources to back up his assertions. If you plan on having kids in a post-apocalyptic world, I would suggest to educate yourself on childbirth and midwifery, rather than bring out the ‘ol scalpel in a pinch. 


        • Hi Beth,

             My father was an avid ‘Wild West/Civil War’ era fan,,,in our household one knew about shiloh, Gettysburg and “The Battle of the Clouds” (Chattanooga) before we were 10 years old…in detail!

              To put it simply, once my father handed me an old, old bible that he has procured elsewhere duting his travels; you know, the kind that list the birth’s and death’s for a family over multiple generations? When he handed me that he had alrady opened it to the geaneology listed and in handing it to me her asked, “What do see here that is not ‘right’?” After a minute or two of scanning I picked out what he meant me to find.

              For every Patriarch (male) listed there were MULTIPLE wives – successively, not simultaneously. “Why did they have so many wives back then Dad?” I asked, already half-guessing the answer (Siad ‘wives’ were young and seemed to live VERY short lives. Also, thier ‘dates od demise’ seemed always to coincide with the ‘births’ listed or nearly so.)

             He gave the answer I was half-expecting, “They didn’t live long back then son…the wives that is.” Rest assured ‘childbearing’ pre-modern medicine was an ansolute crap-shoot folks. 🙁

          • I don’t completely agree that pre-modern obstetrics was wholly a “crap-shoot.” True, our forebears did not have as good of outcomes as we do, but that doesn’t make it completely worthless. Trained, experienced midwives in the 1600s successfully delivered breech babies and saved the life of the mother in the event of placenta previa. In fact, the maternal mortality rate in Europe SKYROCKETED in the late 1800s with the advent of modern medicine because instead of midwives, most babies were delivered by med students with cadaver gunk under their fingernails. 

            Today, the US is ranked quite poorly in terms of maternal health care. In 2008, we had 24 deaths per 1000 women according to the World Health Organization. This is UP from 1990, when we only had 12 deaths per 1000 women. This is a direct result of Modern Medicine’s overuse of the C-section (30% of babies are delivered via C-section in the US).  In Northern Europe, 90% of births are attended by trained midwives, and 1/3 of those take place in people’s homes. Denmark had 8 maternal deaths per 1000 women in 2008.

            The numbers indicate that despite our gleaming hospitals, we are actually moving backward in terms of maternal health care in the United States. Don’t dismiss midwifery as outmoded or primitive. 

            • All true Beth,

                  I beleive it’s the absence of modern antibiotics though that is  the effective ‘tipping point’ in this particular equation. To be sure, the advent of a trained, competent midwive’s ‘guild’ made a large difference…but with the onset of infection – pre-antibiotic – the outcome was usually ‘grim’ to say the least.

            • Many of those C-sections are due to choice by the new parents. umurkins can’t even be bothered to take time away from football for the birth of their child.

          • I saw exactly the same thing when doing a survey of graves in an Adirondack community in the 1970s.   Man who died at sixty year of age often had three or four wives, and more than a few children that died before they were two.   Hard times.  

          • I gave birth by c-section to a large baby who was breach and turning was out of the question due to her size and mine.  The OB came in to see me later and said “Good thing it wasn’t 100 years ago”.  I knew he meant I would not be here if it weren’t for safe c-sections.  Recovery from that c-section was way more difficult than recovery from my son’s natural birth.  Many of my female relatives in the local cemetery who died in the 1800’s died within days or weeks of their child’s birth.  Other nursing mothers would have to take the baby and nurse it to try to keep it alive.

        • @Beth:

          This is why, throughout the whole book, I go out of my way to say that infection is a huge killer, that one should always seek medical help, and it even includes exhorting you to get a pile of medical texts, as well as one specifically geared towards midwifery.

          Finally, no one said it would be “safe”, and I resent the misrepresentation.

          • MAny Thanks OC!,

                A MOST excellent read…thanks again!

          • OOPS,

                I’ll be damned if I haven’t done that twice today! Sorry OQ…I appear to have ‘OC’ of the brain today. 🙁

            • No worries… as long as whatever you call me doesn’t include the phrase “some of a bitch”, I’ll do just fine 🙂

              • HAHAHahaaaaa….Yup, ROTFLMAO………

          • These days, we exprct a perfect outcome every time or we head for an ambulance chaser. USA has higher infoan mortality rates than many other countries, but I have heard that in some places, if a child doesn’t live  through the first month or two, it doesn’t even count.

          • @ Odd Questioner:

            But…you DO say it is “‘safe!” I am not misrepresenting you at all.

            On page 248, you write:

            “If it comes to a point where normal childbirth isn’t going to be safe or possible, know that cesarean births are actually quite doable and safe, even in post-collapse times. Just keep the area and the tools as sterile as possible and both mother and baby will most likely do okay.” [emphasis added]

            Which brings to mind another question: why do you insist that abortion would absolutely NOT be an option because of health risks, but a cesarean section, a MUCH more dangerous and invasive procedure, is? 


            • Fair enough – I thought I had cleaned that bit up (I still believe it is doable). Hard to stuff that much into such a small space, and I apologize for any confusion.

              As for the abortion angle? Quite simple, really – first, you focus too much on invasiveness, and not on complexity/simplicity, value, and availability of resources. 

              Unless the mother is obviously about to die from complications (e.g. an ectopic pregnancy), you’re simply not going to to see it happen, and the rarity of such conditions mean that for all practical purposes, it’s going to be a dead issue.

              In current times, only a very rare percentage of abortions happen out of actual medical necessity… indeed, the vast majority of them occur for reasons that boil down (one way or the other) to convenience. Post-collapse? Kids are going to carry too much value (both as future labor, future defenders, and as old-age insurance). Kids are going to face a mortality rate that their 19th-century forebears faced (if they’re lucky enough to have it that low) – so having 5-6 children means you’ll be lucky if you see two of them live long enough to reproduce, then eventually care for you in your old age. There will be too many would-be parents eager to adopt the kid if you really don’t want it (especially since fertility treatments will also be gone). Finally, nobody is going to waste the increasingly rare surgical supplies on an almost purely elective procedure such as abortion.

              Incidentally, a C-section is only going to happen if absolutely needed, is far simpler to do than a D&C or various other abortion procedures (and thus don’t require as much skill), and if done correctly and cleanly, doesn’t pose nearly the dangers to health and fertility long-term that an abortion would, especially post-collapse. 

              To top all of that off, and as explained in the same book, society is going to become closer-knit, and your business becomes everyone else’s pretty quickly, for some very real reasons.

              I’m sorry, but Planned Parenthood is probably going to end up a dead relic of this civilization once it collapses.

      13. Odd,

        Thank you.

        No one knows how bad the collapse will be or how long it will take to recover. We all do the best we can with what we have.  I am increasing my library as part of my preps and this will be a most welcome addition.

        Of all the things we collect to prepare ourselves knowledge is the most valuable.

        • @ Satori.  Nothing to worry about, quite common in this region of the Appalachian Mountains. Whereever there are mountains there are faultlines and sometimes they move a little.  Until Dec. 3 there is still 80%+ chance of a 6.5+ in the areas that I gave the other day.  It seems with that polar region that most earthquakes that are bigger wait awhile before hitting.  The others areas most happen between 0-7 days later, with this region they occur 8-15 days later.  I have seen a higher than pure chance that many earthquakes that occur in the polar region happen about 14 and 1/2 days to 15 days later.  I suspect this is because the moon is opposite to where it was when the polar region had their earthquake.  The moon has a lot of tidal influnce on the planet being so close as it is. 

          • Hi Bi,


                I’ve often wondered how much of the ‘low magnitude’ seismic recorded in the Appalachian’s is , or comes as a result of the multiple centuries we have been mining coal therefrom….especiallly those areas where uncontrolled “mine fires” have run amok resulting in large scale underground collapse….

            • @ JustOneGuy.  I think this is very possible about removing coal from the mountains and also the tunneling effect of the mines.  I have always wondered also about all the glacial waters from the underground water table from the past Ice Age being removed from the areas around the New Madrid fault if this is going to speed up the time when the next earthquake occurs on the fault.  There sure has been a lot of irrigation for farms for the past centrury along the New Madrid. 

      14. I have been collecting books for this purpose for over 40 years.  I have the room full of shelves with one window and an easy chair. 

        Project Gutenberg, Google Books, and other sources can provide thousands of texts.  Newsgroups, especially the one on technical ebooks, have tens of thousands of books, especially if you use a good provider with a long retention time.

        The longest lasting form of computer printing in hard times is with dot matrix printers.  You can find them for nothing.  You can buy extra ribbons, you can even make ribbons at some point, you can store up ink or make new ink.  Just make sure that all the computers that you store have DOS and old Windows so that you can print to dot matrix.  This will extend the time you will have to print out books.  Also, it would be a good idea to have an old manual typewriter and ribbons or materials to make ribbons.  Typing is a lot faster than handwriting to make copies of documents in the future.

        I had downloaded OQ’s book previously, and it is full of things to think about.  I think I have everything in it covered, but I go through it again to get more ideas.  Now if I can remember to print it out on archival paper.



        • @ Archivist,

              BRAVO Friend! the very definition of “Think, think, think…then act” I am heartened any time I see some such comment as yours….the road coming will be immeasurably rough. Your actions – and hopefully those of others also – will be the lynchpin from which a new start can be made.

              The notion of having to repeat hundreds, thousands of years in insight and exploration to obtain back to what once was is horrifying beyond words….keep up the good work Brother/Sister/Friend! 🙂

      15. I read once a wise comment about after the collapse of civilization, and the person commented that some 19th century individual would be overjoyed at all the modern devices still left to work with.  It is one thing to go to an area such as a remote desert island and literally have to made something out of a mass of twigs or make a knife out of obsidian, and actually have a lot of refined materials ready to use and improvise with.  Junk is only junk when someone cannot find some useful purpose with it. 

        Rebuilding civilization would be far more difficult if you were starting out from scratch, AND if the people surviving did not have any modern day skills.  Knowledge is one of the most imporant aspects in rebuilding, but your skills can only take you so far without the finished and done products to work with.  To build something your need the hammer, saw, measurering devices, screwdrivers, etc., then you needs the nails, screws, brackets, etc.  Having to make your own tools just would plain suck, you would have to melt down iron ore, shape the tools and so forth.  Make nails  and screws would even be worse without the molds to cast what you need.  Thankfully with doing some hunting around you should be able to find practically evewrything you need from abandoned places whereever there was people living there once. 

        A lot of people for example can reload their own ammo, and some can make the shells and projectiles from scrap pieces of metals.  However, how many people can go out and extract the raw materials to make gunpowder from the countryside from the encrusted rock for what you need?  Not too many, guaranteed. 

        This is why it is going to take truly inventive minds to be able to use the leftover material to make it work.  I have long suggested that people that are preppers/survivalist RIGHT NOW start practising repairing items for example without the modern day electrical devices.  See what you can do to fix something using only what is available in the garage, rather than going to the hardware store.  See what survival item you can personally make out of items that have no value to others.  I have seen individuals for example on the internet make a parbolic cooker using CD disks like from AOL.  It takes hundreds to do so, but these are extremely reflective like a mirror and AOL CD disks end up in the trash anyway. 

        Learn and work now how to make use of what society deems as unusable, because there will eventually come a time when everyone will have to. 

        • That’s why it’s hard for me to get rid of anything made of fabric. Old socks and Tshirts can become rags, and if you’re going to throw them away anyway, why not use them instead of paper towels, for some things at least. Many years ago, my old flannel nightgown became the fabric for our backpacking pillows. Even for non-survival, any nice skirt fabric that could go with your decor can make great decorative pillows. Another use for old clothes is pillow stuffing. Bottom line – one day we might wish we had some of that old fabric. It’s a fine line though, between keeping potentially useful items and letting the stuff take over your house.

          • Hi LT,


                I am NOT speaking as an ‘knowledgeable’ person here. As have many, I have seen the ‘diorama’s’ at various museum’s in which ‘spinning and ‘weaving’ is portrayed….it LOOKS very time- and labor-intensive. I wonder if perchance this was the genesis of the old-fashioned ‘patchwork’ quilts….an effort to efficiently recycle an otherwise valuable resource which we today take for granted? I wonder if anyone here actually knows?

            • Yes, that’s exactly how the patchwork quilts got started – people re-using clothes, flour sacks, etc. The so-called “crazy quilt” where there’s no design, just fabric pieced together however it will fit, was a more quick and easy quilt design.

              During the 1930s, people bought flour in huge sacks rather than a 5 pound bag, and they made them out of pretty floral fabric so people could use them for dressmaking. My grandmother used to wear flour sack dresses.

              • ‘Danke!”

            • Thank you for providing the book Mac, and for making it available, Odd Questioner. I can’t wait to read it; even the introduction is excellent!

              Before reading it, here are the thoughts I’ve been having for a long time on a collapse situation. I agree with what I’ve read so far about no one can be totally self-sufficient. Even if you know how to make things out of metal, do you know how to get the metal from the ground? If you know how to sew, can you also weave, do you know how to spin, and do you own a spinning wheel? Do you have a cotton field or a flock of sheep? Do you have the land to graze the sheep on, and do you know how to take care of them? A lot goes into each thing that we take for granted, and there’s no way we can learn everything we would need to know, buy everything we would need, or have time to produce everything from scratch, to be totally self-sufficient. That’s where civilization comes in, and division of labor. That’s why people apprenticed themselves for years, or did what their father did because that’s all you knew and you inherited the tools from him, so you could produce more than you need and trade the rest with people who had done the same. Life was short and brutal before division of labor came about.

              As for complete collapse, I’m not sure. It appears that we are far enough along on the prophetic timetable that there wouldn’t be time left for civilization to collapse completely and then rebuild to the same level – but we have been wrong before about living in the end times, and we could be again. I don’t believe there will be an EMP attack that will take out everything electronic because of a govt connection who hinted (he couldn’t say anything specific directly) that it won’t be an issue but that our health will be our best asset in the near future. A total economic collapse might be able to cause a reversion to the dark ages, but it’s unlikely that every country would collapse at the same time and to the same degree. I’m eager to read your thoughts on the matter!

              • Hi LT,

                   I agree with the bulk of your thoughts above. However, the section, ” A total economic collapse might be able to cause a reversion to the dark ages, but it’s unlikely that every country would collapse at the same time and to the same degree. I’m eager to read your thoughts on the matter!” you might want to reconsider.

                    Google ” Tradeoff.pdf” online. Same is authored by a ‘David Korowicz”. This gentleman is an economist with a background in complex “systems analysis” the paper listed above is an analysis of just how hideously frail the financial system has become…that, taken in tandem with the Marvelous just-in-time (JIT) logistics systems in use today are a truly frightening combination. Fair warning…the paper is long…and thick at 77 pages. It is also in my estimation the closest account of what the end will effectively look like

                   Please note the ‘currency’ of the examples he employs therein….this isn’t some outdated, irrelevant work. Happy Trails Friend!

        • BI…one of the modern day tools I would sorely miss is a welder. Anybody that farms knows that they are essential to everyday upkeep from repair to fabrication of broken parts. I have a nice “scrap” pile for repair from pipe to angle iron and allthread but without a welder it would be tough. Oh and don’t forget number 9 wire. It can “repair the world”. lol

          • The world wouldn’t be starting from scratch. It’s not as though we would forget that arc or TIG welding is possible, or that CNC machine tools can be built. These inventions may not be as common as thay are today, but we wouldn’t all forget that they had been invented. Even if a massive EMP event fried everything electrical, somebody would find some wire and something for a core and make a generator.

      16. thank you for the free copy. I have only skimmed through it so far but I can see a lot of effort and work had gone into it. I look forward to reading it. And thank you once more. This is terrific!

      17. Right now what you  need to worry about is the GMOs that are in almost all the prepared foods you eat including “organic”.  Inform yourself. Try” Seeds of Deception” from your local library to start. You can also get some very good GMO info online and youtube.

        These GMO foods are highly unstable and destroy your internal organs amoung other things.  That is not in the future- it is right now. It is an attack on all people who eat those foods. And Monsanto who makes this stuff does NOT serve it to their people in their cafeterias. TPTB have their own organic farms and do not eat prepared foods. Guess why?

        Store single items like wheat, rice, beans, dried fruit, home canned fruit etc.

        • C ~  

          Are you referring to the GMO cross-contamination that occurs with some organic food?

          Organic food is a far safer option than your regular grocery store fare.  If an item is “certified organic” it means that it is not GMO, at least not knowingly.

          If I can add to your comment, it’s really important to know the origin of your food – all organics are not created equally.

          ~ D

      18.  I am happy to be able to be in the backwoods and not have to deal with the masses.Have tried to talk to other family members but it falls on deaf ears.I get that deer in the head light look from them.I know realistically I will never be completely prepared or will any one else.BUT we will get by and be able to adapt or transition to the surroundings much easier than  the general masses. The more is harder than the less.Keep in mind any one in the cites with pop.of 50,000 or more will not last long no matter how much ammo and guns you have.The people of the united states are 100 times more savage than any country I have seen.WHY ARE WE THIS WAY.Because we are not used to not getting what we want and when it is taken away look how the savages react.      Thinking you can store some food and water and guns and some silver will get you through is not a very good plan.No matter what big towns are a no no.Strength in numbers ,the gangs ,police ,military all know this .Just my two cents.


      19. This really resonates with me.  I’ve been trying to begin thinking more along the lines of a personal SHTF scenario and I discover more and more how right you are, and how little this is covered: often “doomsteaders” are tied to things… battery tech, propane sources, name it.  I was coming to the conclusion that lower COST living might be possible, but totally DISCONNECTED living is not.

        Hopefully what you re-connect to is a rebuilding society, for now though best you can do is get the cost as low as possible and use as little recurring inputs as possible from the “General Store”.

        I’d started to research 18th and 19th century tech.  Better… better.  Assuming stuff doesn’t break.

        I will read this with great interest.

        And hope we shut down all our nuclear power plants in an orderly fashion when stuff falls off, because if not, this is going to rapidly become a rather moot point.

        • Agree with the moot point on the Nuclear Power  Poison Plants.

        • theguy this is why some of us on here keep saying prepping is good survivalist is better.  It has been asked here many  times now by more and more ppl by the week.

          What happens when your preps are gone?  Each week I see more and more waking to this question. Is good to see.  A complete disconnect is very possible.

          Try Native American Techs. Our kind lived without power and without in most cases any form of permament shelter.  It has been done, and it can be done again.  Even a Small village can live very easily disconnected. It all depends on who and the willingness of who you have with you. I always say  if you can not pull over to the side of the road right where you are  get out and walk into the wilderness and survive with nothing but your cloths and what you carry you are NOT prepared.

          Those here who do gardenning will have to do grand scale gardening. Those who fix will have to fix more and pass that along. Those who can scout, cook, hunt, defend, plumb, run wire, make lye soap, reload ammo, machine new weps, will have to pass it all on. We will need true leaders, honest leaders, understanding leaders adaptable leaders. We do not need more of the same greed. Hate the socialists? guess what? They are going to be around after too, get over it. It will be everyone working for the greater good of the group. If you can not get past the petty you will not make it in the shtf scenario.

                                 Our grp has blacks, whites, mexicans, native americans, even eurasians, muslims, catholics, and  christians. We have machinists,plumbers electricians, gardeners, thread and needle workers, militia and ex military. The idea is simple, togeather we will survive alone we will die. A job for everyone and everyone to thier job. Everyone works no one quits. No greed. No One is more Important then anyone else. To help expand and survive is the goal.

          • I am taking this in order of necessity.

            #1 = water.  Shelter… in a pinch a tent is useable.

            Water filters.  Waste of time.  Luxury item.  I intend to stockpile a boatload of them, don’t get me wrong.  However I do not feel real good about that being my purification means.  Same goes for bleach.  Imagine you’re on a boat in the middle of the ocean (which, if I have enough time to prep it up, is exactly where I’m going to be the first 2 years… thank you Los Angeles… no choice).

            Where am I gonna get bleach?

            Or filters…

            I am now building a solar still.  First attempt is going to be small, thrown together for minimal effort, and have an intended lifespan of 1 month.  Think total kludge job.  From this I can make a determination (hopefully) as to whether it will work for me.  Depends on solar immolation, materials used, volume versus surface area, lots of stuff.  But then, good enough is good enough, and “perfect” is the enemy of “get it done”.

            After maybe three kludged iterations, assuming it functions adequately, I will probably know enough to build one with an intended lifespan of… effectively infinite from my perspective.

            Next up: heat.  That one’s always been a problem.  I have no ideas at the moment.  You couldn’t begin to grow wood fast enough all by yourself.  Waste oil… again… run out of oil.  Problems.

      20. Thanks OQ and Mac.  I too agree with being prepared for a long term situation.


        I have taken the time and effort to learn bee keeping.  I presently have two hives going with the ability to expand out as far as needed.  You can with miminal effort collect honey and wax twice of year. One hive can and will produce 30 lbs of honey and several pounds of bees wax each time.  So right now I can collect 120 lbs of honey and about 12 lbs of wax. 


        Honey, among other things, is one of the oldest medicines used.  The roman legionaires carried a pouch with them at all times.  It is a natural antibiotic and when used in place of say a product like neosperm your cut will heal faster and leave a smaller scar.


        In addition honey never goes bad.  Tombs of the acient pharohs have/had clay pots of honey that is as eatable today as it was when it was put in the tomb.  If you have had a bottle or jar of honey and it looked crusty you need only stick it in the microwave for 20 seconds or so and it will be as good as new.


        For those of you who know anything about candles you will confirm that bee wax candles are the best candles of all.  They burn longer, brighter with less smell and smoke than any othe candle.  It is very easy to make candles out of bees wax.  12 pounds of bee wax candles per year will go a long way.


        You can raise bees anywhere.  I don’t care if you live in an apartment and have a small patio.  They are not aggresive as most people think unless you or some one mess’s with them they won’t bother you.  Remember that a bee will only sting you when he has not other option as he unlike a wasp kills itself as most of it’s enternal organs are ejected with the stinger.


        If a bee lands on your arm give it a flick with your finger.  Don’t smack it.  To remove a bee stinger use a credit card or knife blade to scrape it out.  Grabbing or using a pair of tweezers will squeeze the bee venom sac and make it 5 times worse.  There are many more advantages to bee keeping that time and space prohibits me from expounding on.  Just Google it and have fun.  It is a great hobby and can be a skill transferred into a money maker.  Great for bartering as well. 

        • Very excellent information, BigB.  My grandpa raised bees.  He didn’t have any fancy clothing – just a healthy respect for them and a smoker pot; taught all of us young-ones how to move around the hives.  It might be completely dumb,  but he believed it was all about the chemicals you put off in fear… so don’t fear.  He suffered from arthritis and many times watch him grab one intentionally to let it sting his finger joints.  Yep, the dull side of his knife if one of us was a target by random accident.

          Later I worked at a garden nursery one Spring and people would absolutely freaked out with gathering bees doing their job (gotta know the difference in your bugs).  They couldn’t believe I wasn’t terrified in this environment. 

          Rule #1, don’t wear loud smells.  #2 they only sting if you make them do so; a gentle shoo generally suffices.

          • Thanks Wee, something you said reminded me of that factoid about Arthritis. In Russia they use bee venom to treat it and I have not met a bee keeper with arthritis.

            • You know why you use a smoke pot?  The Queen thinks there is a fire and orders everyone to consume as much honey as they can in case they need to bug out.  When you harvest the majority of the bees are so stuffed that they cannot bend thier bodies enough to sting you. OK, I will stop, it is just my hobby. 🙂

              • @ BigB and WeeVoiceInTheWilderness.  I am sure you both know this, but honey works to neutralize the venom in bee stings, but also helps a lot with wasp and hornet stings.  I knew someone that got nailed multiple times on the arm and smoothered honey all over it and the swelling went down and so did the pain.

                Something I noticed this year is that normally I can let bees and yes even wasps crawl around on the backside of my hand and they don’t sting me.  Normally they just want to smell you, as scent is what drives these insects a lot.  This year however I noticed that they are a lot more aggressive, and the other insects are acting weird and erratic all summer and autumn long.  I wonder if this has something to do with the magnetic field of the planet changing.  Pigeons use the magnetic field more so than most birds and they too have not been behaving like they commonly do.  Have you or others seen this with insects and other animals around you lately? 

                • Nope, I did not know that about putting honey on stings.  Course when you are harvesting honey it is everywhere.  No I have not seen anything with my bees being more aggresive.  Maybe it is a N. Ca. thing that they are not.  Another curious factoid about bees are the way that one bee who has found a lot of nector will do a dance on the front stoop of the hive and point the way to the others who follow his scent back to the gathering site.  Bees use the sun as a point of direction.  They don’t use the magnetic field as far as I know.  Heard once that if people had watched bees more they would have realized the planets go around the sun and that the earth spun because it was round and not flat as they thought.

                • BI:  Not unless you count the frog that drove with us all the way to town sitting on the top of the hood in the well where the wipers are.   He stared at us the whole way…then when we got back home, he ran down (not hopped) the side of the car and disappeared.  That seemed mighty strange…LOL

              • @ BigB,

                    I absolutely did NOT know – or even – intuit that particular fact …amazing! 🙂

                • One last factoid on bees and I am going to bed.  The first distilled spirits were made from honey.  It was called Mead.  Because of the sugar content it will give you the worse hangover you have ever had. G’night.

                • lol…A mead hangover. No wonder those Vikings were so grumpy. I think honey would be an excellent substitute for sugar and readily available if you raise bees. Sugar will be hard to come by.I keep Karo for sweetening . Haven’t had much luck keeping extra sugar. Maybe I should try to vacuum pack it.

          • One warning about using bee stings for arthritis – I know a woman who got a local beekeeper to “sting” her multiple times with her bees. The first time around went okay, but the second time sent her into anaphylactic shock and almost killed her.

          • Correct me if I’m wrong, but if you are going to buy honey, make sure it’s raw honey, not the pasteurized crap they sell at the supermarket.

            • But never ever give children under the age of two years old unpasteurized honey. “Infant botulism can cause muscle weakness, with signs like poor sucking, a weak cry, constipation, and an overall decreased muscle tone.”

              Another factoid:  A teaspoon everday of local honey will in most cases stop allergies related to local air born polens.

              If you have had enough bee/honey factoids just thumb me down. 

              • @ BigB.  Years ago I was cleaning up some debris and I picked up a jumbo size black bubblebee by mistake and he let me have it right in the tip of my index finger below the fingernail.  It swelled up and burned a lot, but by soaking my finger in a small container of honey the swelling went down to nothing within a half a hour and the pain was 90% less.  Should have seen the hole left behind.  Honey works with insect stings well, especially the bee, wasp, and hornet families. 

                • You mentioned Bumble Bees.  Interesting enough they do not live in hives as a honey bee does.  They live in colonies underground. They also produce and store honey but only enough to feed themselves.  Unlike the honey bee who keeps a miminal staff on duty over the winter the Bumble Bee Queen hibernates underground by herself.


                  Honey Bee Factoid:  A productive hive during the peak of summer has about 35,000 bees in it.  During the winter that amount goes down to 2 or 3 hundred depending on the climate in which it lives.


                  During the winter depending on the coldness all of the bees in the hive form a ball around the Queen to keep her at about 97 degrees.


                  During the summer when it is hotter than abou 97 degreess the bees will form what is called a beard.  They attach themselves together hanging off the front stoop in a V formation.  They all then beat thier wings together to force a breeze thru the entrance of the hive to keep it cool for the Queen and eggs that are maturing.


                  A normal Bee only lives about 7 days during the summer.  They work constantly literaly working themselves to death. In the fall when it starts cooling off they live longer as they work less as  part of the group who attends to the queen over the winter.


                  The first thing a bee does when it emerges from it’s cell is to clean and make ready that cell for the next egg.


                  You can tell a honey bees age by how dark they are.  When they first come out they are light brown and get darker the older they get.


                  I got a lot more of this so stop me when you have had enough. 🙂

                • @ BigB.  No, I love new information, as we will someday all need it.  When people spend their time sharing what they know, especially when it comes to survival knowledge, we all win.  The more we know about nature the better our chances will be to survive when interacting with nature becomes a daily routine. 

                  I can still remember that sucker that stung me, big and black and fury and after he nailed me he was still flexing that spear of a stinger in and out.  I did not crush the bubblebee as I said to myself it was my fault for not paying attention to what I was doing, and I wanted as soon as possible to get honey on the wound before it really swelled up.

                  This is I say to everyone out there, including those that have not or seldom posted a comment, when you know something it helps us all to know that much more.  The people here truly appreciate knowing what they had not in the past.  If any of you had information that you can share that many of us don’t know that is related to the theme of the site, PLEASE share it.  People appreciate it and probably need it now or in the future.

                • Hi BI,


                     Here’s another ‘weird one’ to remember. When stung, if someone has any tobacco around use saliva – preferably thiers – to moisten it and apply as a poultice for several minutes. Said remedy works suprisingly fast. Why; tobacco contains niocotine…one of – if not the – most powerful vaso-constrictor known to man….prevents the spead of the poison/toxin from the point of inital injection to the surrounding tissue.! Used by myself many, many times on various nieces and nephews…works great.

                • @ JustOneGuy.  I saw someone back in college use a cigarette just for this purpose on a bee sting, but I didn’t connect at the time why.  Now I know.  This is very interesting and I shall pass it on and remember it.  I know that people also use meat tenderizer also for stings, as someone got nailed at the beach by a stingray and was putting meat tenderizer on it from one the beach houses someone got it from their kitchen.  It seemed to work.  I sure hope others chime in with their survival and first aid information, this is wonderful to know more each day. 

              • @ BigB,

                   BTW, luv the ‘nom de plume’ sooo fitting! One small fact I became aware of many years ago with respect to beeswax is this; in EVERY Cathedral of note it was mandated bythe church to use candles only made from the was of beehives…’ve undoubtedly already guessed the reason,

                     Virtually no smoke to darken the murals, paintings and such!


                   Keep it coming BigB, THIS is useful stuff!!!!!

                • Responding here BI…the ‘reply’ button under your post is ‘greyed-out’.

                      I didn’t know that the meat tenderizer was effective for anything in the ‘sting-ray’ class of evonomizations. I do KNOW that a primary use thereof is at EVERY emergency room in the country….as THE absolute first-aid for all types of spider bites. Check with any ET nurse you may know, that’s how we found out about it here in Missouri (RECLUSE…#$%@%)!!!

              • Here in the UK the honey advice is not under 12 months, or 5 if you have serious family history of allergies.

                I’ve been using a teaspoon of local honey on my son’s breakfast toast since he was a year old instead of manufactured antihistamines for hayfever.  I also use it myself. You have to use honey from a hive within 5 miles of your own home (city farm project for us) It definately works better than the crap the chemist sells for us.

                Manuka honey is the best strain for medicinal purposes but it is very expensive, so save it for emergencies only.

                Mead is really, really easy to brew but you have to leave it alone for a couple of years before drinking.  It’s slow to mature and cannot be rushed (probably why it’s fallen from commercial favour in recent years). We normally have a demijohn tucked away in the back of a cupboard somewhere.  I’ve never tried candlemaking from raw beeswax, so that’s on nexts years list of skills to aquire.

                A hive is in our plans when we relocate, my kid is keen to give it a go as one of his Dad’s old classmates farms bees on a commercial scale back home. 

                Please keep these factoids coming!


            • @ arco,

                  What is the effective difference? Do you know, I’m curious…I’ve never encountered the issue before?

        • Thanks for the post, my wife and I have been tossing around the idea of trying a bee hive. This year might be the year we start, after all it’s next on the list. 

          • On Bees – I am moderately allergic to their stings. Hands swell to elbow, foot stings swell to knee, I am a little concerned about getting stung on the neck.

            HOWEVER I eat Bee Pollen right after a sting these days and put a home made antidote to poison oil I make, on it ,and I am Fine!

            This is my third attempt to post today, if this doesn’t go through I guess I’ll go make jam instead…

            • @ HalfKin.  I knew someone that bit down on a honey bee that had somehow gotten into their sandwich.  One tough individual though as they rode it out, swelled up jaw, mouth, and everything., and was fine the next day.  I cringe even thinking back to this time. 

          • I sure am glad to see a bunch of people taking a look at bee keeping.  I have been doing it for almost 20 years.  It takes almost no time to do. Yesterday I went out to the hive to check on them and that was the first time I have looked in on them for a month.  Guess what?  They were still there and busy as little …..s. 🙂


            All you need is a quite place to put your hive with access to fresh clean water within a mile of the hive.  Bee’s will travel up to 5 miles one way to collect pollen.  You don’t have to go out and buy the super duper express model of hives.  Start out with a lower hive and an upper box.  In between them you place a screen that stops the queen from going upstairs.  She is too big to fit thru the screen.


            Order your bees online about the first part of May.  You will get a Queen and about 6 – 10 other bees that you put into the lower hive. Put the screen on and place the upper hive on, put the cap on top and you got yourself a bee hive.  Within a couple of weeks you will see hundreds of new bees going in and out. By mid-summer, thousands.


            I know this next part sounds like BS but I tell you I believe it is true.  Spend time with your bees, talk to them.  Don’t wear strong smelling deoderants or perfumes as it confuses them.  They communicate by using pheremones.  All bee communications is that way.  Also don’t wear bright colored clothes as they think you are a flower.


            If you do this I swear to you that they will get to know you by your smell and by your voice.  I can and do open the top of my hives during the height of summer and check to see how the production is going wearing nothing but shorts and a t shirt.  I have never been stung doing it nor have I ever seen them get upset by me doing it.


            You will know when they are upset.  Take a small stone and tap on the side of the hive just a couple of light taps and listen.  The buzz insaide will increase but not a lot.  Tap 3 to 5 times and you will hear the buzzing getting real loud and a few bees will start emerging and flying around you.


            Anything more, I don’t know, as I have never been that stupid.  Now come the time to harvest you do need to wear the proper clothing along with head gear.  Your first time doing it well lets just say things get real hectic. Actualy you get an adrenalin rush every time you suit up.  You are wearin a white jump suit, gloves that go up to your elbows, I wear two pairs of socks, leather shoes are best and your headgear in which you are looking through a mesh. 


            When you start to remove the combs from the hive that’s when you see bees get real angry.  They are everywhere.  All over you.  You can see on your meshed mask pissed off bee’s only an inch or two away from your face.  There is also a terrificly loud buzz.  If there is an open area on your body they will find it and sting you.  Every time I do it I get between 1 and 5 stings.  Your body is sweating and producing the smell of fear and as mentioned above and they know it.


            You just have to keep your cool and trust in your equipment.  Take your time and do it right.  Remove the combs of honey and replace with new already to go comb boards.  Use a brush to gently sweep the bees off the comb of honey back into the hive.    Put the combs into a large bucket or whatever and take them about 100 feet away.  The bees will follow the honey for a while.  So after you replace the old combs and put the top back on go back to where you left the honey.  Move the combs another 100 feet in any direction, let it sit for a while then most of the bees have left and you can begin the extraction process.  Then and only then do you remove your gear.  Actualy I take off the head gear after I move them the first time. The ones that were really mad have for the most part gone back to the hive.


            As for the extraction process that is a whole other story.

            • @ BigB,

                  Thank’s again BigB, I’ve just come lately into the fuller understanding of JUST how valuable bee’s are in the greater scheme of things…specifically, how VITAL they are inteven being able to produce certain crops, at all. I am, unfortunately, no farmer and am diligently trying to acquaint myself with all of the component neccessities which properly define this ‘art’. Please, post as much as you feel is acceptable on this subject, as much as the ‘traffic will bear’ as it were….this is VITALLY important information in my estimation. Many thanks for your efforts already, and any more to come!!! 🙂

            • I agree – keep the bee info coming!

      21. Thanks OQ…your generous contribution is graciously appreciated.  It’s gonna take a while to digest properly.

        Mac,  see what an outstanding, wonderful crew you’ve assembled.  I wander aimlessly around the http://www... and big as it is, with valuable information but it’s always here that I return for confirmation I’m not off my rocker and can’t get up.

        Yep, gentle kinsmen – we all feel it, it’s not just mass hysteria (gave a lot of thinkin’ on that) we see the signs, read between the lines and stand together with a big ‘YEP, it’s a-comin’ dear loved ones’. 

        What a crew we would be if only we assembled within a 100 mile radius. Anyway, I had a wake-up this week with one of my main go-to guys.  Very knowledgeable, steady 15 yr ex-Marine (my pick for master gunnery sgt. Ha! in my organization chart – that’s my talent)  He went very weird over using an expired can of condensed milk – 10/2012.  Granted not the pick if you have non-expired milk, but Really? Throw away the whole pan of sweet-potatoe casserole.  So, okay I’ll make sure he stays out of the mess hall prep area – if and when because everyone has their talents.  Mine is not poisoning peeps, but it might be wise to understand Best-By and don’t eat this stuff.  I’ll probly get trashed by the food police, but you might want to gather your facts first. 

        BTW, I took a large portion of said ‘poison’ and made a point to gently say ‘YUMMY sweet-tators, wish I’d taken a bigger to-go bag of it.’

        ~..~ Wee

      22. @Odd questioner…

        Thank you sir for the previous link to your excellent and comprehensive work. Have read through about half of it since yesterday…;)

        One thing you might look at, on my pdf reader, the page index on the left is about 20 pages off from the display page… dunno what that is, software glitch?

        Otherwise, very impressive work that I recommend to anyone who wants a “Everything you wanted to know about collapse, but were afraid to ask” book…






        • The book’s page numbering and Adobe’s page numbering are two different things.  Adobe numbers the pages starting at page 1 for the cover and continues from there.  The book itself has no number for the cover, then Roman numerals for the front matter, then starts with page 1 for the first page of the first chapter.  From the cover to the end of the front matter is 20 pages, so Page 1 of Chapter 1 is the 21st page of the PDF document.


          • Thanks Archivist, good to know…

            Hard to use as reference from the TOC…


      23. Greetings!

        First things first,

        A tip of the hat  again to Mac for providing both this site and the needed info to both prep and make survival a real possibility!

        Secondly, a hat tip to Odd Questioner for his book”(I’ll buy the hardcover ASAP!).Top Shelf prose,Dude!I’m in your camp on this one! If the rest of the book is as good,it’s as necessary as a handheld water purifier with several filter refills and a good shovel(with a BIG box of heirloom seeds). While I personally hope that God’s Kingdom will  arrive soon,it just may not get here on my timetable(the Bible is full of such “delayed actions” on God’s part,folks!)I still hope for it soon.Meanwhile, we deal with life as it is today.I have always felt since the ’70’s till today that Civilization on a world-wide basis is slagging down.Wall-Street is a suckers game setup to lull the “sheeple” to sleep.Given just the rate of world-wide pollution, We need “The CHANGE” real soon.What form that appears in we won’t be sure of till it arrives. I’ll give it about 2-5 years,no matter what TPTB do.Perhaps sooner.Odd Questioner,you and Mac(and a few others)are welcome at my campfire/Franklin stove after/during the SHTF time anytime.

        Best to All,

        Hope You and yours have enough to eat and a safe and warm place to sleep.



      24. Evening Solar Report;


           All things solar have resumed an almost completely torpid state. The extent of the fluctuations in the 0.5 4.0 angstrom band of the NOAA GOES-15 X-ray flux plots hasn’t even succeeded in reaching past the bottom of the A-class…nearly the very lowest listed short of the actual graph-bottom itself.

            Little, if anything is anticipated through the evening hours this evening. On another, seperate note – BI, take note here – we have had another GRB in the wee hours last night. This event was more of the order and magnitude of those seen in the last of October. It may be ‘eyes-open’ time again….time will tell.


             Wishing a GOOD evening to all here with the hope that your weekend is safe and untroubled…God Bless you all.


      25. How do you rebuild with all the radiation from abandoned nuclear power stations and abandoned nuclear warheads?

        • @va=eugenics rn … you live rebuild in the high mountain up wind areas away from the radiation sources , out on islands high points in the great oceans where salt water / rainfall naturally buffers filters the Radiation Fallout from the air – avoid low lying valleys ravines , open pools of stagnant water  , only drink from deep aquifers naturally protected by 1000 of feet of earth from direct contact with radiation fallout . You eat only Freshly grown foods sheltered from the radiation fallout watered by filtered non-radiated water . 

          And you dig a Dug Out Home at minimum 10 feet deep under the earths surface with solid mass between you and the outside Radiation . The more mass the better , have multiple solid exterior hatches doors to block direct exposure to radiation fallout and wet cloth filtration air filters on all In-coming fresh air ways to the outside to catch radiation and decontamination showers at all entrances .

          It’s all very workable … just inconvenient … most humans are all ready exposed to high level of radiation in their daily lives . The trick is to avoid the Hot Spots and try to minimize the radiation exposure or neutralize it with your diet . 

          ~N.O. ;0P

          • @ Coco,

                STERLING post Coco…Tank’s! 🙂

            • @JustOneGuy … “Sterling” ??? … you made me blush ;0) your very welcome Sir . I’m very pleased you read it .

                ;0)   Have a Great Week @jog !

              ~N.O. ;0p

              • Careful here Coco,

                     You DO have a reputation to maintain here….that sounded almost….’coquett-ish’….. 🙂

          • eugenics? I guess if I hit the lotto next week just about anything will be workable. Meanwhile I’ll prepare for something that doesn’t iclude letting the genie out of it’s bottle.

          • Your entrance tunnel into your dugout should also have some 90 degree changes in direction as this allows more mass between the entrance and living are thus tamping down the direct radiation.

            Nice information there Coco

            • @bkb …. Roger That ! Covered 90 degree L-Path Entrance with solid sealed multi-doors to Fall-Out Bunker entrance decontamination shower room is Best – Very Important point for all Prepper Peeples to remember ;0) Thanks for catching me on that ! Very Key Point .

              Kinda Awesome how so many folks here are now up to par on the info ! ;0)

              Keep on Rockin It – Preppers !

              ~N.O. ;0P

      26. I went right to the “Scavenging and Procurement” section, and found the usual drivel.  Sorry Odd Q., but not all preppers are poor and undersupplied, and not all business owners are “corporations” that have insurance against every SHTF scenario, assuming they live to make the claim after being robbed. 

        This section stinks of the “free shit ” mindset that we despise of the EBT/Welfare types now.  Worse, you’re attempting to make a distinction between a proactive, scavenging survivalist and a criminal where one doesn’t exist.  The owner of the property makes that call, not the perp.  You tell me, if the rightful owner of your procured/scavenged goods showed up would you hand everything stolen back over to them and make restitution on the goods you took?  Not payment later, but the return of ALL the owners goods, PLUS payment out of your own stored goods/gear to replace what you already damaged, used, traded, or gave away? As a small biz owner with more paid-for shit than I can properly guard, I’ll tell you straight up – I’ll go the scorched earth route with whoever is caught in my ‘abandoned buildings’ before I let them walk off with my property.  So by all means, go in in teams. Ask and I’d try to help – but try to steal from me and I don’t give a shit what happens to you/yours. PS: potassium perchlorate on sale for $6 a pound at this week with the coupon code “blackfriday”. Have a nice day, and I look forward to reading the rest.

        • It’s a touchy subject, but look at it this way:

          * I mention specifically that locally-owned “mom and pop” type shops are to be avoided. We’re going after abandoned and corporate goods, not something that someone else actively owns.

          * Look towards the end of the book where the Scrounging Lists live. One of the sections speaks to the whole looting vs. scavenging thing. 

          * The reason I mention restoration to an owner is because mistakes happen, and you need to fix that when it’s you that makes them.

          • “It’s a touchy subject, but look at it this way:”I did read Appendix B afterwards, but I doubt we’ll ever see eye-to-eye on this one O.Q.  Our SHTF strategies are not only very different in this regard, but would also put our groups in direct conflict.  Probably best for both if we never meet post-SHTF.  I honestly don’t see how your ‘scrounging’ parties are any different than the raiders and gangs you describe.  Your priorities, items, and distance plans in Appx. B are the same as the raider/gang logistics issues you discuss earlier, ie, when they’ll start looting, what they’ll hit first, hit/run and smash/grab, time on location, resistance, fuel/distance, risk and reward,etc.   The only difference seems to be your casting yourself as acting for the greater good, and ascribing some lesser motive to them.  You have any advice for business owners on how to tell your group and the raiders/looters apart?  Are you going to be wearing white hats, or are the owners under some obligation to make their presence known so your group won’t mistake the property as having been abandoned?   If I don’t hang a “U loot, we shoot” sign, does that mean I forfeit the right to shoot if your group breaks in? 

            I know, you also said no “mom/pop” shops would be looted, but it’s obvious you’re not a business owner either.  Go ask the employees at your local Ace Hardware, Piggly Wiggly, Subway, BP/Marathon/Exxon gas station, KFC, 7-Eleven, or Circle-K who owns the building,  bought the merchandise, and pays the employees – you might be surprised.

      27. I tend to lean in OQ direction of thinking…this thing wont likely be over in a short time…if in several lifetimes….sure it “could” last a few weeks or a few years and then the govt reasserts itself (hopefully not this govt as it now stands)and things are great again but I personally doubt that.Anyhow here who wants to bet on it being okay in a year or two?…do you really want to gamble your life and the lives of all those dear to you for some coming generations on it being okay after a short time? personally I dont think that way,if you do no problem…in some ways Id prefer you were correct and Im way off but Ive lived awhile and prudence dictates that at least in my own life I gotta be long term ready.Thats why I say quite often its not prepping I do its a lifestyle,been at it since the 70s back to the land movement and grew up that way,wouldnt know how to live any other way not sure Id want to,but thats just me,I see the fish going one way I figure to go the other way,contrary and ornery? you bet but Im content,thats gotta be worth somthin in anyones book…so anyhow Id suggest folks pay attention to what OQ is sayin here,cause learning skills and getting good tools now will be alot easier than when hell has come to stay as an unwelcome house guest(and Im not talking about inlaws 😉 …” Live free or die tryin”

        • Then another group of people will decide that they are “the chosen”.
        • Then people begin to cheat and lie to each other.
        • Then people begin to murder each other in the name of God.
        • Then people begin to create weapons of mass murder.
        • Then people unleash weapons of mass murder.
        • Then again people begin again from scratch?

        Maybe, it’s better if we just went the way of the dinosaur? Let the cockroach evolve, let it become self knowing and begin it’s own world without us. Maybe one day they will find human bones and put them in a museum and they will have their little cockroach children come in on a school field trip to see our bones on display. Maybe they will achieve greatness and will move on to other worlds, where we failed miserably at mostly everything.

        God help us!


      28. So now the site only post what it wants?????????? Sorry mac if I pissed on your sponsers,

        • You forget this is a for profit business. The bills must be paid.

          • facebook

            I’m really sick and tired of your pissin and moaning about anything you do seem to like .. All you do is start shit with everybody plus then I get to scroll through all your bullshit post about everything  you know nothing about…. So in the future just don’t post anything to me because I have not a f–king thing to say to you …

            • I thought you had nothing to say again. What is this below.  If this is enough to get your blood going. You need treatment more than me.

              This make you to want to meet up. Actually I do “Send” money to MAC.  I only purchase my online items (when possible) from click from only two sites.   Even the ones I do regular business. I come to this sight so they can receive the % he deserves.   Do you or are you a freeloader here just feeling that you are not listened to as before.

              Some must like my statements we are running 50 50 on most thumbs. I think it more that you have nothing more to say so you just want to come here and chat. No seem to challage my points. You just bitch about them. Proablly because you know I am right.    

              And how does telling me about your Harley tell me where you are. So now I know what you do on the weekend on a SUNNY day.

              So you should have a nice day “Fluffer”.

              • f.u.c.k 0ff fagbook. we all hate you.

                • No thats running about 50 50 also. 

                  And most of the hate that I am just pointing out how the world is not how YOU wish it was.

                  And look who went straight to the abusive personal attacks. Becareful you will hurt my little feelings.

              • FBP

                You are my South Fla. friend, but you seem to delight in getting on here and pushing people’s buttons….how is that therapy?

                Romans 12: 18

                If it is possiable, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.

                I know that you mean well, calm down and think back to your youth living off of Sunrise Blvd. and 95 on the river in Ft. Lauderdale.  Add to the topics, don’t just pick at people, O.K.?

                • Face old bud, I’ve seen the elephant too. Here is a tip, many on this site are either posting from a Islamic country and using American names, or they have delusions.  Either way, you are not going to change them. So why try?  Be at peace while we can, our next war will start soon enough.

              • haha, you do live in boca raton! and i dont even have technology to trace it! i cant see you facebook, but i can see right through you! its the magic eeder technology! youre a damned fool pal.seriously, get a life.what type of creton are you in reality ? youre a silly silly little man.


                • Since I have talk about my youth very much here with many different people. You should of know. Plus hind sight on your part is the only visions you have.

                  And when it comes to seeing.   Read into this.  The reason I was in Boca is that is where IBM put it main restricted research buildings in late 60s and early 70.  And my family never left IBM. This is also why I started my assoisation with the miltary at such a young age.

          • facebook

            And for the second time, I have given you the location where you can find me there fluffy.. I am very easy to find I’m the small man riding the big Harley with the American flagover my heart that states ( Try and burn this one A-shole). And if you want to help this site move out of mom and dads house and send Mac some money…….. Other then that Your small pathetic opinion has been dually noted and Ignored.

        • ??????????? Um, what?

      29. Well, I watched some guy prepping for the earthquake of the New Madrid fault.

        At the end of the segment, the ‘experts’ said that there is a chance the New

        Madrid fault could have a bad earthquake in the next 50 years.   Ho-hum,

        I mean,  why bother prepping????   I will continue to do my prepping,

        I like it, and I like the security within my home, or bugging out in my vehicle.


        • That’s kind of like the weather people saying there’s a 50% chance of rain. Either it’s going to rain or it won’t. Either way they can say they were right.

      30. thank you for the collection of info and other helps…  every little bit helps add to the broad picture… so many are focused so narrowly on tshtf but fail to realize that if it’s on a large regional or national level, there will be no returning to “kansas with toto”…   it will effectively be gone and there will be a different world with which to deal…  the longer the scenario is allowed to play out, the more likely tptb will make every effort to capitalize on the misfortune of others and have the time and flexibility to do so…   this is the very reason why barry the food stamp king is creating laws at the rate of 68 per day as he intends to have the muscle in place to attempt to squash any resistance to socialism or outright communism(as opposed to the fascism of today) being the “new order” in America…  …  this means that those who stand for our Founders’ principles must be ready to take action within moments of the initial collapse… 

      31. Off topic,

        Watched the new RED DAWN yesterday. We enjoyed it, and thought that in many ways it was equal, or better than the original.  Have a blessed Lord’s Day.



      32. Thanks again Mac and OQ for the info. I will purchase the book to read and put along side with the rest of my info.

      33. If anyone reading this article is skeptical about the collapse of society just read this. It is THE official government sponsored report on the EMP threat:

        The EMP threat both from a high altitude nuclear detonation or from a massive earth directed solar flare is the single most important reason to prep. A successful EMP attack would take down the north American power grid for months resulting in the death of the majority of the population of the United States due to starvation and dehydration. This is not a mater of opinion. There has been plenty of testing of the effects of exo-atmospheric nuclear detonations since the early 60’s.

        Have you noticed how everyone has heard about the Mayan calendar (2012 non-event)? It is a joke and people are prepping for it. The EMP issue needs to eclipse the 2012 issue and fast. Every adult in this country needs to know about this threat to their survival and they need to know that this government sponsored report and others exist.

        Think for a moment and realize that the US military, CIA and federal government have been making enemies all over the world since the end of world war 2. And all our enemies know about the EMP effect. Last of all, realize that this involves 1950’s high technology. We are toast. It is just a matter of time. This isn’t zombie apocalypse or 2012 or planet X. It is the real deal and everyone needs to know.

        Can you imagine FEMA springing into action when the grid goes down. FEMA ran out of bottled water a couple of days after hurricane Sandy hit. They had to contact vendors to get bids to place an order. Kind of late for that. So the grid goes down and they need to place an order for diesel generators. Ooops can’t make a phone call. Can’t e-mail or text. Can’t send a fax. We are on our own. This is the reason to prep.



        • Tank’s Lux,


              Good Post….RING the bell, far and wide! 🙂

        • In a crisis, the effiency of  .gov will be breathtaking–when .gov is rescuing itself.

        • FWIW, due diligence on the site, the listed authors, their general internet presence (linkedin, college data, etc) makes it likely this is a real document for anyone who may be a natural skeptic such as a myself.   Or it’s one frack of a well done hoax.  🙂

        •  The possibility of an EMP coming over the North pole or a sub launch attack is real.  But within the hour a barrage of intercontinetal ICBMS  would be unleashed. Hell on earth. A strategic simultaneous ground attack on key power installations is a higher risk.  

          On another note.  Comparing the Prepper to the average person, I would think by now we have tuned ourselves/less dependent to be without electronics electronics or prepped for other forms of communcations. The need to cmmmuicate is very strong and to some would be like a junkie going Cold Turkey. Finding other forms of entertainment is amusing. When at camp, I sing, hum tunes and whistle and maybe dance around a bit. Helps doing the chores around camp. No radio except to catch the weather report and the cell phone to call the wife at home. Sounds a little odd but it works for me.

      34. One thing we can maybe count on is that the Chicoms may come to help us reorganize, in you know, their special way of keeping a society humming along.  Or, we might get some good old 12th century Caliphate that will show us that there is no need for anything other than a prayer rug and submission.  My point is, we may be a lot busier trying to hold onto what remains of our lost culture than any concern about rebuilding. 

      35. I just bought the book on Amazon. I also put up a review to counter the single ‘one star’ review that was there, which incorrectly disagreed with the statement that women are more pain tolerant and have more stamina than men. That is physiologically true, seprate from any superior strength that males may have.

        I agree with the premise of the book, that a collapse may go beyond the ‘preps’ that people have. I have made similar commnets about the long term need to be in a  sustainable community. I am also an author, of ‘Contact!” and ‘Rapid Fire!” which are more on the tactical side of post-collapse defense. Mac also published my article on this site about ‘long term defense of your retreat location’. I wanted to support OQ for his work, and have a bound copy, rather than printing a free download.

        I will be adding this book to my library, for those skills that my ‘tactical’ background does not cover. It’s one thing to survive on stored food and tactical acumen through the initial chaos, but another to produce food and survive long after the stored food is gone, probably forcing some sort of migration to a better sustainable situation, if you are not in one already. However, dont forget that once you are in that sustainable community, you still have to defend it against marauders! It was ever so, look at the histiry of Anglo-Saxon England for the requirement for  ‘burgh’ to have a wall and a man to defend it every so many meters along it.

        • Max V ~

          Your opinion carries a lot of weight in the prepper community. It was really nice of you to endorse OQ’s book.

          ~ D

        • Max,

          I thank you sir… 🙂

      36.  Heard plenty of talk about rebuilding. What are your ideas, or standards, of the, “New Society” envisioned after the “Die Off”?    How would you maintain a form of Law and Order if you became one of the New Judges?

        • Hi Slingshot,

              This touches directly on something that has been coming up in my mind over and over for quite some time. The notion underlying this might be best considered here in the context of the question;

                 “Who Are We?”

              Who we are will surely lie at the root of who we will become. Mayhaps in the time remaining before the “Great Flush” comes, before the pressures of simply ‘existing’ on a daily basis become so fierce that there is no time to contemplate such things each of us should set about dwelling on that question.

             Too, maybe here, someone might invest the effort to launch a specific forum – with Mac’s permission, of course  – which addresses that very thing collectively, openly. The past is gone….beyond remedy, what of it will we take into the future with us…and what form will it take there?

              A good ‘thought-experimen’t for those here…possibly?

        • Possibly we could start with the original Constitution and Bill of Rights sans all other amendments for now. It seems to be a good basis that lasted for at least until the Whiskey Rebellion….I guess that’s not too long. Human nature being what it is, we will eventually come back to the same point we are now anyway. The people become complacent and the sociopaths take over. Rinse and repeat.

          • @ Anonymous,

                I’ve often thought – as per a precious post – that Mr Jefferson’s finest prose, the Declaration of Independence and subsequently, the Constitution are as close as mankind has ever come to producing something ‘Holy’ without divine intervention. There is MUCH in these, and other such ducumentation, which I would not wish to see ‘Pass from the face of the Earth’.

                  The three questions, “Who Am I?”, Who Are You?” and finally, “Who are WE?” need for dome serious thought on the part of all those who entertain the notion that ‘what is now’ may come to no longer be. I agrree with your selection…wholeheartedly. I also submit to those here a point to consider;

                     At no time did the Founder’s consider – wholly – the effect of incalculable wealth on the mechanism’s they designed in thier day and time. I doubt few – if any here – would argue that such is NOT at the root of ALL things which  have went askance here in our own time….many questions to ponder, No? 😐

            • OOPS,

              Correction, should read as;

                   “- as per a previous post -“

        • slingshot,

          Good question, which is why I never really answer it. I only have enough to get folks started in that direction, and include the basics. After that, it’s up to the survivors to determine where they want to take it.

      37. Thanks Odd Questioner.   I really appreciate your efforts. 

        Thanks Mac.  With gentlemen like you we will make it.

      38. The time after the Collapse might not necessarily be as bad as depicted. After the Plague killed 1/3 of the European population, society was able to rebound with the Renaissance. Landowners (the wealthy) ended up suffering because they did not have as many people to work for them and those that were available could ask for much higher wages. The most resourceful of the common people were able to improve their lives. Survivors inherited property that also improved their lives. Craftsmen and people with skills were in high demand.

        I think much of the outcome will depend on how the collapse occurs. If something like a pandemic wipes people out, we will be left with a large amount of materials to rebuild. On the other hand, massive warfare and destruction would wipe out much needed resources and make survival difficult. Since I have no idea what will happen, it seems that the best bet is to prepare for as many possibilities as I can.

      39. Morning Solar Report,

             Activity remains very low and stable. At the time of this posting the current solar X-ray flux listed by the NOAA GOES-15 sensor’s is B-5.6 with very low activity in the ‘High band’  0.5-4.0 Angstrom ‘blue’ (chart-line) passband. Little of note – Solar – has transpired since the last report.

            On a seperate note, another GRB (Gamma Ray Burst) was recorded last night by the SWIFT orbiter. As yet the preliminary ‘lightcurve’ plot has not been posted. Same may possibly be available for the evening report.

        • @ JustOneGuy.  I think because of all of the disaster forecasting, especially 2012 Mayan issue, that such discussion about FALSE FEARING that is going on in the media is really quite relevant to the SHTFPLAN theme in an open forum for others to chime in and learn.  I have seen all this hype about this mega tsunami from La Palma island collapse and would like to further give physical examples of why this is absolutely preposterous.

          You brought up water displacement of a mass of 30 cubic miles of debris falling into the Atlantic Ocean.  i was talking about worst case scenario 120 cubic miles of mass and still called the idea of a mega tsunami on the East Coast from this news media gargle.  I will use the Great Alaskan earthquake of 1964 that was a 9.2.  Thousands of times more mass moved at a much higher rate of velocity, and moved water in many magnitudes higher than 120 cubic miles of debris falling into the ocean.  The kinetic energy was tens of thosands of times that of a La Palma total collapse.  The difference between physical mass moved and water between the Alaskan quake was like an ant hill and the mass of land at a typical landfill.  This TRUE ocean moving caused very high tsunamis around Alaska,  However in the open waters of the Pacific it DID NOT produce any mega tsunami.  Cresent City, california had a 12 foot tsunami for example.

          The 8.8 Chile earthquake a few years ago, again moved thousands of more volumes of water than the La Palma worst case scenario could ever produce.  Everyone in Hawaii was waiting for a 20-30 foot tsunami destroying the coastline.  6 feet in most places.  Even the Indonesian earthquake of 9.1 that was multiple times any Island collapse only produce a 11 foot tsunami on the African coastline. 

          In a confined area the collapse of an island can produce a mega tsunami, a REAL confined area.  In the open ocean it is dispersed extremely rapidly.  Like the notion of a 1 mega ton nuke being 50 times more powerful that the Hiroshima bomb meaning that it must cover 50 times the area.  Using the cube root blast law it would cover 3.68 times the area, not 50 times more land mass.  Energy and a wave has to have enormous amounts of power behind it to make a building high tsunami over the millions of square miles of open ocean over 3500 miles.

          One site had a 160 foot tall tsunami hitting the Atlantic seacoast from this island collapse.  This kind of mis-information damages good relaible article and comments by people trying to warn others about TRUE and REAL hazards to others.  It would take a small moon  to hit the Atlantic Ocean to create a 160 foot tall tsunami at 3500 miles away, 4 times the size of the dinosaur killer asteroid. 

          When I talk about the dangers of the Caribbean plate I use comparisons between other similar thrust faults and past tsunami records to get a ballpark figure.  I don’t use exaggerated figures to scare people, only use what I have observed before.  With Hurricane Sandy I did not say a 30 foot wall of water was going to hit New York, I said 14-16 feet based on the pressure of the hurricane and the 90 mph winds and the coastline, it was 13.88 feet.  Well within the margin of error. 

          This hype about a megi tsunami from a tiny island collapsing causes much crying wolf and chicken little feelings for other issues that are true dangers for people around the world.  The news media is often poison to what is really going to happen with a specific event.  Comparison is very valuable to show that something like a 160 foot tall tsunami from an island collapse is truly preposterous when one sees that it would take an impact from a small moon 25 miles in size, 15625 cubic miles of mass in comparison to 120 cubic miles of island, and the moon travelling at least 400 times faster. 

          One other thing, I am not putting you down in anyway at all, I am just after the garbage that is circulating over the internet about a wide variety of way over hyped scenarioes.  Just like flies swarming a pile of manure.  I so much respect Mac that he tries very hard to put on what he feels are credible articles on this site that have some substance behind them even if some of us might agree or disagree with the opinion of the author.  Just another two thumbs up for this shtfplan site that so many of us truly enjoy. 

          • Hi Bi,

                Friend, your efforts here are clearly of the most excellent sort, unquestionably so! I was fully expecting a reprise of our previous interchange…and I welcome it. I, like you, am someone who seeks after TRUTH. Not my truth, not your truth…just TRUTH…only. Whomsoever can proffer TRUTH is my friend. The obverse is aslo true, that if faced with what I otherwise dtrongly disagree with I will ‘post-out’ as it were.

                To be sure, using your previous reference, “…Boy that cried, WOLF!”, there is FAR too MUCH sansationaslism – EVERYWHERE – around us. In part that’s why I’m ‘out, in the open’ here now. Your effort at this in what you percive the ‘threat’/non-threat’ which is La Palma is laudable and wholly good. Please remember….I have ‘lurked’ here for a very, very long time! I have seen very much pass through here and KNOW you friend. 🙂

                Nonetheless, I ASSERT, you may wish to reconsider this one thing at hand. I offer you the following line, to allow you to explore the matter – at your leisure – away from this place, privately, before pronouncing upon same. Follow the thread – through Google, or Wiki – “Soliton”, Soliton waves”.  Before closing here this morining, I reiterate, there is STRONG geological evidence, that in the past…perhaps 25,000 years ago,here the timeframe is not clear, that the Hawaian Islands were the source of some truly startling events which previosuly affected the coastline of the Padific North-West. This circumstance would be similar to the situation at hand with respect to El Hierro/La Palma.

                BI, I do not ask you to disavow your stated position in this matter but only to consider the foregoing… and NOT HERE in open forumuntil such time as thee and me have communed ‘pon this/it directly.

                In open fourm, it is the case that that one’s ego becomes involved….something which for various reasons a kind and loving Father saw fit to ‘relieve’ me of predominantly, previously. “Tarry thou a bit Friend” and consider thusly….

            • @ JustOneGuy.  From that site I linked that showed asteroid impacts through entering the size and other parameters, I am sure that any evidence of previous mega tsunamis were the cause of an asteroid impact or a mega undersea earthquake fault going off.  For a long time they thought that strike slip faults were not capable of anything past a 8.3 or so.  then this last April there was either a 8.6 or 8.7 strike slip.  A ten pointer I think is not only possible but it has happened before.

              I appreciate your insight in much, but there is just no way in physical law that something the size of La Palma/ElHierro could cause a mega tsunami in open waters and especially over the course of 3500 miles.  The Alaskan landslide that caused a 1700 foot wave dispersed the second it hit the Gulf of Alaska and did nothing to anything to any island outside the confined space in which this mega wave occurred.  Just look at the miniscule size of this island in comparison to the Atlantic Ocean, it is like looking at the difference between the Earth and Sun.

              Big waves nearby to such a collapse, absolutely.  Big waves thousands of miles away without the kinetic energy behind it or the massive area of water moved in a hundreds of miles massive thrust fault suddenly being thrust upward, NO WAY. 

              I think what you are thinking in the lines of are masses of energy plasma moving in a channelled manner unobstructed by anything in space.  Water however not only has a “skin” to it, but it is mass itself.  As a column of water and energy is moving from a spot of energy being released it disperses and dissipates, just as the mass of oil from Deepwater Horizon they said was going to destroy European beaches NEVER happened.  Granted this didn’t have much force behind it, it still shows how wrong these so called experts are when they fail to take into account break up effect that water, and even air has on a mass moving in one direction. 

              I honestly thought about this in respect to you, was there anyway that an island collapse could cause a meg tsunami thousands of miles away, and I could ONLY see this happening if the island was the size of Madagascar.  Or if the island slammed into ocean at the speed of an asteroid.  Whenever something radiates out it looses its energy and, and any collapse into the ocean of any mass losses its size rapidly in open water, over thousands of miles, tremendously.

              To test a theory scientists and weapon experts scale down an event or explosives to determine how it works.   You can get an excellent idea how an explosion works with a certain element by detonating it small time to see how it will react as a large explosion.  Bomb experts in Israel can almost instantly determine the size of a suicide bomber’s explosive size using the basic knowledge of how much energy is released through varying degrees of size.  A 10 pound bomb will through deadly shrapnel I believe it was about 110 feet, therefore a 100 pound will throw it 2.15 times as far as the cube root of 10 is 2.15, or about 237 feet. 

              This same princple is used in energy released, and yes water displacement, in something that hits the ocean.  When I used 100 mph this is considered fairly quick, anything else slower would further reduce the size of any wave from an island collapse.  This evidence that is sited of island collapses causing mega tsunamis is actually another event that caused it.  I suspect mass plate collisons in the past that created for example the Philippine, Caribbean, Carolina, Arabian, Cocos plates and other smaller ones.   Even asteroid and comet impacts that are more frequent that people realize. 

              Please don’t think that I am directing this at you, or in anyway putting you down, no way would I do that.  You handle should actually be Just One Nice Guy as you are polite to everyone.  I am just trying to destroy these FALSE reports of disasters that just cannot happen in this universe under present day physical laws.  By discussing this other people can see a totally rational level headed approach to a problem or a question about an event.

              For example when I saw that Hezbollah has over 300,000 missiles, this I am not sure of, I have not been over there to do an inventory of their arsenal.  I have however talked to Israeli soldiers that have told me that 300,000 is actually an underestimation to what they have.  I also know that they kicked Israel’s butt 6 years ago and knocked out 100 of their best tanks, almost sank their flagship missile cruiser and battled the country to a stalemate, as all previous wars Israel won.  Iran has had 6 years to put as much firepower to retailate for when comes the time Israel attacks Iran, in the hands of Hezbollah.  Do I know that Hezbollah has hundreds of thousands of missiles, no not pure proof positive, but I am fairly sure of it.

              However science is pretty exact, when the numbers don’t even begin to add up to a mega tsunami on the east Coast from La Palma, El Hierro going off into the ocean, in fact even a tsunami a couple of feet tall, I look for that truth in math and science that does not fail as long as the numbers were correctly inputed.  Math is cold and too exact, but something you can usually always depend on.  Please do read the link I gave to disprove this La Palma myth, as they said at the end of the article, this mega tsunami hype was really done in extremely bad taste, that has frightened many people unjusticely. 

              • Hi BI,

                    I am flattered with the sheer volume of the response…Thank you friend! Lest we ‘enrage’ a percentage of the members of the site here with our ongoing antics I repsectfully suggest we suspend this until the thrice Blessed MAC has succeeded in installing the PM….with one small, final thought for the interim;

                   I’m sure that at some point you’ve seen pictures/movies (historical) of the launches of various naval vessels, Yes? Occaisionally these are launched – for whatever reason – laterally, not stern-first. On more than one occasion it occured during these types of launches (before such time as a body of experiance had been developed therein) that wholly unexpected damage was done upon those on the shore on the far side of the launch site….frequently miles away. Yes, this does relate to what I mentioned previously…solitons. But the bare essence of the energy/momentum issue is that energy is a derivative of momentum…specifically measured and calculated as the rate of change of the momentum involved. Energy is not the primary consideration involved…it is derivative of the momentum….even at the level of quantum mechanics  this is the fundamental fact    Thus said, for the sake of the ‘innocent bystanders’ hereabout I withdraw from further pursuit of the matter until PM is up and running…Oh, and thank you for the complement! Good Night Friend. 🙂

                  PS;  Evening Solar is about due…the GRB last night was of the middling sort, a scoshe shy of those seen in latter October and lesser than the event immediately prior… 🙂

                • @ JustOneGuy.  I did some real reading on solitons and by my understanding this is far more of an issue with electronics and the biological body.  I can understand what you thinking about a wave riding on the surface of the ocean until it hits its target.  A rouge wave type, or what they call a tidal bore with the tides for example.  I use the analogy of a rip current at the beach. 

                  The big problem with this is that the hype given about the entire eastern seaboard taken out is total nonsense.  Energy plays a huge role in the size and the wave lengths and a wave is not going to spread out over the entire ocean riding on the surface of the ocean until it impacts land.  If this was the case, it would happen with volcanic eruptions in the ocean all the time.  An isolated freak wave might ride a narrow band to somewhere hundreds of miles away, but thousands, no.

                  The ocean again is not a flat surface for one thing, and the experiments done does NOT take into account the curve of the planet and the fact that the ocean itself is not a controlled environment.  There are very strong currents below the surface and at the surface that interact with any type of something “riding” on the liquid.  These experiments are done without taking into account these varibles that will not allow a wave to take a cruise unabated.  On a surface that was as slick as ice, I could see something taking a ride for a moderate distance. 

                  People see solitons as motion in the vacumn of space being unstopped.  You get to a certain speed and cruise along without wasting fuel until a gravitional body slows you down.  The ocean however is not this way, it circulates and has slowing down effects as shown in massive earthquakes.  Especially over a large distance such as thousands of miles. 

                  In the hundred years of earthquake monitoring and even before this in some areas, not one time has an undersea volcano, or above sea volcano, or underses earthquake produced the pure and utter daffy ideas that these news sites talk about a mega buildings high tsunami over very long distances, not one.  This is because solitons are disrupted by the fact that the ocean is circulating and in more motion that anyone imagines.  The same as land drag, the ocean that circulates and is part of the rotation of the planet and the moon also, any type of tsunami causing disruption is interacted with.  The ocean has ocean drag that slows down momentum.  The Japanes earthquake was a golden example of this, nothing rode to anywhere thousands of miles away as a mega wave. 

                  I have read about rouge waves and they are more of a phenomenon on a short distance scale, not thousands of miles.  Again, like the article said, the past collapses of mass into the ocean produced mega high waves close by, but upon entering the open ocean, they disappered. 

                  Channelling effects of water such as rip currents are the result of the undersea topography than anything, and of course the currents as a result of storms.  Carrier waves are much more for fiber optics than they are for an ocean mega tsunami.  Too much in the open ocean to stop anything from this happening, or it would have happened at least once with all the tsunami induced earthquakes that had far more energy behind them.

                  Just wanted you to know that I really looked into this and it was like what I thought, the ocean is not a controlled enviroment to allow something like some rouge super wave to impact anything thousands of miles away.  Thank you though for informing me and others about a science that few know or talk about. 

                • OOPS,

                     almost gorgot to mention that the entire ‘soliton’ thing is general, arising out of mathematical theory. As such – and has been recorded at various and sundry times – solitons encompass everything from suatomic class phenomena all the way up to strict ‘matter waves’. I would have to dig to get the reference that follows here…let me see, was it a physicisr or a mathematician at large in this story…., well the story goes that during the early part of the 19th century some ‘worthy’ was by chance sitting alonside a canal in merry old England when of a sudden a passing barfe was hauled to an abrupt stop. It goes on to tell that the ‘bow-wave’ continued apace anf the witness followed it along at a brisk walk for a span of some few miles until it disappeared into the winding confluence of divergent channels upstream of the origin.

                     The ‘worthy’ involved – who as I’ve said was a person of some note, one whose name would be instantly recognized by any educated person (again CRS syndrome here) remarked that the wave ”     retained it’s full height throughout – some multiple feet – and it’s wave-shape until I lost sight of it….”. Truly, BI…I do not make things up friend…I could find this story nearly as you see it above if I but had the tine and inclination to do so. It is not as important to be ‘right’ as it is to come to the truth…whatsoever that might be. Do I know the ‘TRUTH’? Just in a couple places, maybe, maybe not!

                     In any event, said phenomena began what became a mathematical study of such that ended up becoming a part of modern mathematics….topology. And as such I realize that the ‘worthy’ alluded to above would neccessaril;y have been a mathematician….name still not recalled!!!

                      Anywho, tis late friend, “Guten Abend und Guten Nacht!” 🙂

                • @ JustOneGuy.  Without further boring people with the science behind this, I actually thought about this last night before going to sleep.  The first thing that came to mind was the word friction that the ocean is as it is in constant motion.  Rouge waves are rare and I truly believe they ride underwater currents.  The scenario of an island collapse and that wave riding the surface of the ocean thousands of miles is beyond farfetched because the ocean is in such motion and causes friction that reduces tsunamis tremendously.  Again, case in point the countless earthquake induced tsunamis that die off in comparison to their original size.

                  Next when I said about kinetic energy having a relationship to momentum it does, because you have to have significant enough push to set something off into the perpetual motion that this really is.  The second that the energy from an island collapse begins radiating out it loses the original force.  Next is the force of gravity on all objects that will reduce the wave over the course easily over thousands of miles.

                  Next the studies done on this were done on small scale models that did NOT take into account the variables of distance, true distance, and the very shape of the planet and the circulation of the ocean itself.  It is one thing to witness a wave in a canal, that is channelled like a funnel, and an open water situation that spreads out in all directions for tens of millions of square miles.  Unless the parameters of a huge scale event are taken into account on a small scale experiment, the test becomes flawed and skewed. 

                  The technical professors at the University of Delft in the Netherlands are total experts on every factor of solitons, quantum physics, and every form of mathematics that there is.  There is a reason that their credibility is so high in forecasting tsunamis and the potential for tsunamis.  These people are educated to the highest standards available.  Europe was the model that projected Hurricame Sandy within 15 miles of landfall.  If these individuals say no chance of a mega tsunami from this island collapse, then I actually trust them and my own logic and analyzing of the situation. 

                  I want to thank you again for bringing this up and after throughly reading about waves, I am now even more convinced that El Herrio/ La Palma island collapse will do nothing to the Atlantic Seaboard.   I sure enjoy having conversations with the intelligent people on this site. 

      40. Help, I have tried every way to download this and it won’t work. What am I doing wrong? It’s telling me it can’t be displayed in this frame. Thanks much.

        • Lady L – up at the top of the comments, Just One Guy posted instructions for downloading it – others were having difficulty as well.  🙂

          ~ D

      41. WASHINGTON, GEORGE, in Maxims of George Washington by A. A. Appleton & Co.

        “They (the Jews) work more effectively against us, than the enemy’s armies. They are a hundred times more dangerous to our liberties and the great cause we are engaged in… It is much to be lamented that each state, long ago, has not hunted them down as pest to society and the greatest enemies we have to the happiness of America.”

        Go read the Protocol of the Elders of Zion.

        Complete collapse is their goal.

        No hate here…just looking at the root cause of the fall of the United States.   All the factories are not in China and our own people live on credit cards….slavery via usury.

        So…   Get our of debt and teach your children.  Boycott China goods.   Build up your own ventures and keep them private…  once IPO…they will take over what you worked hard at.  

        • why can’t i paste … ???

          why are my posts being blocked ???

          someone is screening my posts !!!


          • THen don’t paste. Its that simple.   

          • Server is slow. Takes about 5 minutes to get  to the board.

          • nina, its because facebookpage is doing special tricks. mac, can we plese consider ridding ourselves of this blight. he is out of control.

            • @eeder — just who is out of control, exactly?

      42. @JustOneGuy     Who are we?   We are the people who have put forth an effort to stem the tide of socialism. That abide by the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. We understand fair play but abhor the use of legislative manuvering to acquire/ruleing at any means even if it’s wrong. It will be my first priority to remove the power from the lawyers and place it back into the hands of the people. I would stop the flow of frivolous lawsiuts which clog our legal system. I would make going to prison a living hell and not a country club for the enhancement of crime. I would make people respondsible for their actions. Instill a strong sense of what is right and what is wrong. Hanarabi code comes to mind here. Enforce the death penalty and to bare false witness in a trail would result in the witness recieveing the same penalty as the accused. I would be partial to Frontier Justice in the beginning as there are many who feel they can do as they please. Many would say I am barbaric, but so help me God, if I have anything to do with it, it is to right this ship called the UNITED STATES of AMERICA.

        • Hi slingshot,

             Indeed, that’s the spirit, “Confucius say….Journey of 1000 mles begin with single step…” 🙂 Excellent!

        • Good Evening Slingshot,

              A most excellent start I believe…exactly the direction we must needs go, I think.  Though it is likely that any firm answer to the question “Who Are We” in totality, now is likely beyond our grasp it is JUST this type of thinking which will neccessarily lead to that final answer when the moment comes when we MUST arrive at it. I’m sure that I’m not telling you something that you don’t already know, but Mac is preparing to install a PM system here – in addition to other improvements, possibly targetetd forums (Don’t quote me here!) – as such I’ll look forward to dialoguing with you later. Have a good one tonight!

              PS; I believe that we may find THIS is a CENTRAL point of importance in time to come….

          • @ JustOneGuy

             I am trying to push the envelope to explore that although we all should be prepping, you must know the, How, When,Where,Who, Why side of the equation. A chance to unite us all. But I am not holding my breath.


            • Me neither….I’m pretty sure that fatal ‘hypoxia’ would be the current result…still, as per the previous ‘Confucian wisdom’ remark earlier, “Journey of 1000 miles begins with single step…”.

                  Sleep well this eve, Friend.

            • @ slingshot,

                 A thought here – and this is as good a place to start this ongoing conversation as any, so – I’ve considered the issue that the body of Law here in this country is suited for only – You guessed it! – Lawyers. Does this strike anyone other than me as patently absurd? Think about it; the ass-wipes ( I seldom resort to the vernacular, but for THESES it’s warranted) who practice Law in this country in effect practice an ‘arcane’ art which they are continuously at great pains to make sure becomes more and more remote from the common with each passing minute (seemingly). THEY thrive on the very complexity which serves to have CRIPPLED the greatest country that has ever appeared on the surface of the Earth!!!! WTF?!?!?

                  If you’ve followed over any of my previous post here you’ll immediately understand what a monumental departure the phrasing of the foregoing is for me at large…can’t be helped, I fear, these VERMIN have wrecked us all but completely…there is NOW no guarantee that s blood-less exit exist from this insanity. DAMN THEM ALL!

                  To this end I would propose the following as being a central feature of any possible replacement for what has come to be: IF a law is laid out that Law must be inspected by an ‘August’, respected body of the Judiciary to first ensure that it does not create logical inconsistencies, that it ‘fit’s’ in with any such already existent  AND that ALL LAW be Written SUCH that when 10 citizen’s collectively cannot agree on the clear meaning of the LAW then it is effectively null and VOID…That’d put a STOP to this SHIT…wouldn’t it. Think on this if you will and let me know what you think Brother. Somebody, somehwere has GOT to start thinking about this stuff if we’re EVER gonna see a better day! Eh? 🙂

              • Does not take me a long time to mull that over with over 40 years of contempt for those bastards.

                         I will note there are some good Lawyers. The problem is there are many more who do whatever for the money and not for justice. To elect an August Respected body, we must be sure they follow the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to the letter. Small deviations is where we find the inconsistancies. To create a grey area is to usurp the law. This is where a jury sometimes finds it impossible to come to a  correct verdict. Judges being lawyers, are suseptable to the same practice. If we are to cleanse our nation of these jackals we must elect those who will oversee said changes, to come from the same frame of thought. Sounds somewhat dictorial but are they not doing the same to us right now? Freedom of speech is just about dead. No man is above the law and must be judge by his peers. How many of us have said at one time or another that the said offender should have his ass beat?   That’s the Ticket. I am for the offender to be beaten  by the family, for the loss of a loved one, every thirty days, till the family has extracted their pound of flesh. It is important to make the law clear and its penalty for breaking the law. My penalties would be harsh.

                 To be clear!   I am the Monster they place is a glass box with the words,    “Do not break unless you really want change”.

                The acts of child or spousal abuse would stop.

                The acts of senior abuse would stop.

                The stealing of our retirements would stop.

                The needless deaths by guns would stop.

                Cruel and unusal punishment limits are set aside for who do hideous acts against those who are unable to defend themselves.

                So we have election of new officials. The clear meaning of the law and  some of my outspoken penalities for breaking the law. Now you may say that I contradict myself as per the Constitution, but we are fighting for its survival. Drastic times call for drastic measures.

                Just don’t break the glass.

                • Mornin’ Slingshot!,

                      Just stopped for a moment here before heading out the door, as per the VAST bulk of the preceding – nicely done, Friend – I find myself ever so diligently inclined to the precepts you have enumerated. A little later, after I’ve returned I WOLD like to clariofy – with you – “the needless deaths by gun…” component.

                     Gotta go for now, Brother! Adios Muchachos’

                • Draco… er… slingshot…

                  The term Draconian mean anything to ya? Uh, yes, you are the monster we do not let out of the cage, because monsters don’t know when to stop once they get a taste for blood…

                  Now, I get it… lawyers are part of the problem… but, who do lawyers work for? Money.

                  I will put it to you like a lawyer friend put it to me… there FIRST RESPONSIBILITY is not to their CLIENT… it is to DEFEND THE SYSTEM. Thus they are all called; Officers of the Court. And most of them should be used for toilet paper, agreed. But, if I need one, I want the nastiest, dirtiest, smartest, ugliest and meanest one I can afford. I wonder how they get that way?

                  Now, combine that with what a banker buddy said once, when I asked him why they couldn’t make this shit easier to understand(talking about contracts.)

                  “There is profit in complexity my friend.”

                  Now, where does The Problem emanate from…

                  Trick question, they BOTH support the System. Mutually supportive…now add in preachers telling people to “submit to Godly ‘authority’ “… “pay your taxes”… etc etc.

                  These two holes in the Constitution, can not be remedied. You cannot have a system so complicated and centralized that you must have ‘representatives’ for everything. You cannot have equality as long as money is not a ‘right’.


              • Thus Shakespeare was right…

                “But first, you must kill all the lawyers…”


            • And what Vision will you use to Unite the Good? We have tried, in various forms…

              They are of the iron and clay, divided by ideology, trust in the system, and trust in God. It requires a New Revelation to break the barrier of trust.

              There is a reason why we called the Constitution the LAST Great Experiment in men governing man.

              Until you break through the last barrier, the LOVE of money that is the ROOT of all evil, you have lost.

              It is the thing that is loved above God and Constitution, it is the thing that divides, it is the thing that builds and tears down, the greed and the envy. The lack of trust, and the divisions enforced by the men behind the curtain, the useful idiots and their backers. The head of gold on the two legs of ideology, the banker families and the wannabes.

              The want us mostly all dead. You can believe, or not, but I know this for certain. Because it is the only way, going forward, for them to maintain their lifestyles in the zero sum game of Earth, is for you all that are left, to live like serfs.

              Awaken to the truth of the Haves vs the Havenots, stand for God and you unify through the common enemy.

              The Haves wrote the Constitution, the Havenots didn’t trust them, so the Bill of Rights was added. But it didn’t go far enough because the Phoenix rose from the ashes of the Revolution and the Rule of Gold still stood, codified in the Dream, without the Backing of Monetary and tax rights. Even the tax rights codified, were abused from day one. The Whiskey Rebellion and Civil war, ending in the Fed, is your proof.

              This is the essence of the Root of Evil. Once understood, a new path forward can be achieved on the backs of the evil ones who have oppressed us since the beginning of recorded history.


        • no slingshot who we are are the ppl who watched as it happened let it happen and did nothing about it but type our displesure twards it. All we do is blame everyoen else for the shit  that is going on.  Right side blames the left, the left blames the right, cons blaming libs, libs blaming cons. Rather entertaining that it is the right and left that put us here.  

          •  We are the people who were betrayed by both parties. I vote like hell and say my opinion and we all stayed within the confines of the law. It is now that being lawful people, realise our mistake and have forgot the means to revolt, our Founding Fathers have given us. A simple explanation is the dumbing down of our educational system. Rest assured there are plenty of us old fuckers that remember our nations history. We are just getting our act together.

            • With you there slingshot.

              Political correctness is the tool of the oppressor that seeks to limit the method of opposition.

              If you were to begin, say, sending rounds down range, at the bodies of progressive leaders, would you be labeled as a;

              1. Common Criminal or psychopath

              2. Terrorist

              3. Patriot

              The Media is the tool of oppression that limits the methods of resistance of the oppressed..


      43. England is suffering from tremendous flooding.

        Anyone hear of this?

        • yes em. i did.

        • @Emily….yes, I saw the landslides in South part of England(think it said towards Wales)…..It looked just awful…….I automatically think of Burt the Brit……this must be just too depressing for her and everyone else, as she said they have been having rain for months now!!!   But for the Grace of God go I……take care, CC.

          • @CC, et al,

                  CC, Burt chimed in on a post in the last forum…her tone wasn’t what I’d call good…kepp an ‘eye’ out for her here, I asked -based on that post – if in fact she was all-right….haven’t heard back from her YET.

          • South West England and Wales.  However it’s mostly in the parts of the country where people do have a pantry & pull together & help each other out, so the situation is not as bad as it would be if the exact same thing happened elsewhere  iykwim.  

            My sister is ever so pleased the house she just bought is on top of a hill right now lol! (She’s due to give birth in less than a fortnight so a secure home means a lot to her right now). My  2 year old niece was fed up when I spoke to her on the phone yesterday as she’s not been able to go out and play for four days due to heavy rain & can’t get to nursery. She’s in Wales, and a few schools have had to close.

            The bit that cracks me up is that 2012 started with lots of warnings about droughts. It rained for most of the first part of the year where I am, and the year looks to end the same way. I’m not impressed with the water companies, in many places localised flooding has been caused/made worse by inadequate infrastructure maintenance.    

      44. I really would like to be able to download the article but no one responded to my earlier post for help. I’ve clicked on all the links and they don’t work. I also did a search for the article and they all led me back here. Would appreciate any suggestions as to what I can try. Thanks.

        • Once you reach the page, simply click “File” (upper left-hand corner), then “Download”.

          I’ve set up an alternate means of download just in case. Click this link, click the “regular download” button, then 60 seconds later, they have a silly captcha thingy then hit enter. (My apologies for the hoops, but free file-sharing sites are weird like that).


        • Ladyliberty,

          Did you get it yet?

          (Probably that google sign in crap?)

          If not, I can post it elsewhere for you to download…

          IF OQ agrees…

          • 1) post it elsewhere, please. 🙂

            2) instructions and an alternate download link are awaiting moderation. 

          • Ok, ladyliberty, et al.

            anybody who can’t get the google version, email me and I’ll send you a link to a truly open download.

            bagpiper at babylonwilderness dot com

            use standard formatting of address.


        • Long story short, my nephew, whom I call; ‘Thief’, told me about ‘something happening’ two months before the Occupy thing started. He was dead on, kinda because he was part of it… well, they are not dead contrary to popular opinion… just regrouping, planning and organizing the ‘destruction of the financial system’…Oh, did I mention he was also an Obamabot?

          The Obots around here went under deep cover months before the election, removing signs and bumper stickers etc. I had thought it was because they were ashamed and abandoning their messiah… nope… they’re having ‘meetings’… evidently (2nd hand), they ‘know’ something is going to happen… don’t ask me how, I don’t know. But the upshot is, they are planning their own version of a collapse scenario… and it is typical lefty think.

          Are they prepping and storing food, ammo, etc… uh… no. They are planning on ‘taking charge’… by going to the townhalls and establishing their… uh… what? Domain?  Anyway, regardless, they aren’t all idiots, they have some true Marxist type leaders, so evidently the Obot army has been busy… and I doubt if this is a ‘spontaneous’ community organizing… if you get my drift.

          In these townhalls, what do they want to do is establish their authority to take YOUR STUFF, for the ‘common good’ ya know… that’s how they think. The other thing that has me thinking… well, they’ll have access to all the gun permits, CCP license data, etc.  SO They’ll KNOW WHO is their enemy…

          So.. Part of OQ’s book is about governance. If I were you, if we have a dollar collapse, the first place I would head, if I were in a town, is to make sure the Obots don’t take the town halls and put your existing Councils, Mayors and Sheriffs into a leftist permanent retirement. As in beef up the deputy staff.

          As for my thieving nephew, it will make me feel bad for a long time, this I already know, but, if he shows his face around here again, “He who hesitates is dead”. Because, I already know his collapse plan, and it involves an AKM I taught him how to zero and shoot… he snookered me real good, and once is all he gets.

          Just an FYI.

          (And to all you Obots on board, you’re welcome… 😉


          • Hi Piper,

                In the long history of the world we have seen a lot of goofy behaviours out of various groups to be sure. Sometimes I’ve wondered if there isn’t some ‘organic’ basis for this. I’m more than half-serious in this assertion. What I know of neural dysfunction – in those whose right/left henisphere’s do not communicate correctly, or at all (usually surgically, in the latter case) – is a patent inability to cognitively ‘plan’ into the future…along, of course, with other oddities.

                 I’m quite SURE that someone here at the board has a background in neurology, it would be interesting to hear they’re conjectures, if they were so inclined. Mayhaps this is a remnant of the Neandertal/Cro-Magnon thing that never quite resolved itself through the gene pool…some unwant legacy remaining. Alot of the characteristics evinced by these give the appearance of those of ‘diminished capacity’…who knows?

            • The Gnosis delivers three kinds of human’s;

              The Righteous, The Mixed, The Dark ‘Sons of Cain’.

              Those who listen to the spirit, those who can hear but don’t always listen, and those who cannot hear. The Mixed represent the greatest majority.

              The human soul is of three parts… Body, Animal, Spirit.

              Those who don’t believe, google; Duncan McDougal, who in 1901, proved the soul, but not conclusively enough to satisfy a mankind that loves its mysteries. This is known as the ’21 gram theory’… which is half way to our theory, and my hypothesis, and the reason why this experiment should be run on modern equipment. But, political correctness and the fear of men in love with their mystery, will not allow it. In essence, this follows Einstein’s e=mc2, or, all mass=energy, and energy is the base foundation of everything.

              My theoretical construction says that this measurement should follow a predictable curve of ‘good vs evil’ deeds and the level of guilt that weighs them down.

              Here is a link;

              The 21 gram theory.

              Those who don’t believe in the Spirit, well, there is something called the Global Consciousness project, that might set your mind in another direction than what the religionists or the scientists preach. I have a link to it at my site…

              Piper Michael



          • @ PM

                      Had a conversation with a State Trooper, a few days ago and he stated there are two kinds of LEO’s. Oath Keepers and them.  They also out number the Oath Keepers. Armed Obamabots?  What next?

            • Oh Crud, that’s a DISTURBING thought,. Tank’s for the 411 Slingshot.

            • They are the Animal, they only listen to their feelings, they have no minds. At least, not like those who were raised and taught the value of the constitutional principles of God given rights… and my thesis is, the Animal has been winning for a generation, since we kicked God out of the schools and gave our children over to the beast(little b.)

              When the animal congregates, and takes over, it becomes what?

              The Beast system. (Capital B)

              Now you see why my primary concern of collapse based planning is for the good guys to network and form their own underground economy… that will also form the basis of an army of Go(o)d.

              You cannot beat a tidal wave with a popgun, yet we are held in apathy and complacency for two reasons. Trust in the System, and Trust in God. Both will fail us, because that is what we deserve, the consequences of rebellion and failing God. This is the highest message of Nebuchadnezzar’s statue of the head of Gold standing on the two legs of ideology. This, in essence is what Ron Paul confirmed in his farewell speech, in more secular terms. But he tied religion in to our problems… and therein lies the truth of the matter.

              We are held by thousand year old MYSTERIES and superstitions, constructed by priests and preachers who had/have a vested interest in collecting their 30 pieces of silver, by riding The Beast. They cannot speak of these things, it is not their ‘theology’, because they were taught, the same way the Pharisees were taught, to hold fast to the MYSTERY…

              The Revelation, is the message of condemnation to the MYSTERY and the Mother of Harlots, but, nobody ever asks; Who are her children? If the Mother Church is the Harlot, then the children are the protestant, the ‘protesting’ Catholics. (Some of them argue that they have nothing to do with Rome, because they don’t even know what protestant means. Then I ask them; Who’s Bible are you reading?)

              Ron Paul was right, and there is no way to unify the good guys divided on the two legs of ideology and the iron and clay of sticky emotions of mystery, without a New Revelation, a New Vision. But they are wrapped up in the idea that Jesus will swarm down with an army of angels and rescue them from this beast just in the nick of time, even if they don’t deserve it. They are going to be very disappointed unto the point of losing faith, that is the saddest part of the MYSTERY Religion of Rome. But, they sure love to argue about it, and use a lot of fancy religious sounding words, that don’t mean squat to a logical mind, so I ask; Does God author confusion? Does God author multiple contradictory messages? Does God ask men to kill other men in the name of God?

              The Lord Himself asked that the Cup be passed, it wasn’t.The Apostles ‘knew’ God would deliver them from torture unto death, He didn’t.The Jews, in Nazi Germany, ‘knew’ that God was going to send the Messiah and rescue them from the Nazi’s. Didn’t happen. (Did you know that?)Now, the American beer drinking cursing aborting sinning hypocritical and lukewarm ‘Christian’, thinks, that Jesus will come and fix everything… I’ll take bets on that.

              It is only when you delve into the ancient documents that precede the Canon, do you see the truth. We have reality, and it is what we asked for, we rebelled continuously. He will intervene when it is to His Purpose. Otherwise, we are His Hands of Justice on Earth through the Holy Spirit that guides us. It is not that Jesus will not return, it is the mechanism and timing that is the question. It is only in the prophesies of Enoch that we see the energy nature of the ‘2nd coming’, or, the 4th Advent of the Christ Spirit, the Light of the World, who’s Light will shine forth from the heavens and merge with the pentecostal light of men,  after the 7 seals between the heavens are broken by the Dark day of the Lord and the filled cups of Karma are poured out. The Time that precedes it, will be the darkness that destroys the evil ones, and, the lukewarm. Only by grabbing on to your soul, and the light of love, trimming your wick and filling your lamp, will you be able to hide in a back room from the Animals when the Green horse rides.

              For no matter what happens on Earth, God always, always, preserves a Remnant.

              Be the Remnant, for it is too late to stem the tide of The Beast that comes after the Babylon system on the two legs, the black horse, the scales of power and justice, burns and delivers money famine.

              Learn the lesson of the Cheek and the Sword, of a true warrior of God, to become men again, and cease being sheep. Sheep bow to AntiGod, men stand. A warrior turns the cheek to demonstrate his superior strength of character, and knows the difference between a petty insult and an assault, to protect the weak by being meek. A warrior knows the cost of comfort, and sells his coat, to buy a sword of truth.

              What comes? Let him who has eyes to see and ears that hear, listen to the spirit that condemns the churches. There are few, very few, who awaken to the truth of the mystery.




              • Err, one bit:

                 But they are wrapped up in the idea that Jesus will swarm down with an army of angels and rescue them from this beast just in the nick of time, even if they don’t deserve it.They are going to be very disappointed unto the point of losing faith, that is the saddest part of the MYSTERY Religion of Rome.

                As a Catholic who is well-versed in Catechism and Canon Law, I can tell you with complete certainty that no one in The Vatican/Holy See believes in any such thing as a “Rapture”, nor does the laity.

                Sorry – we just don’t subscribe to it. I even go out of my way to debunk it with regards to prepping in the book itself. No offense to those who believe in it and all, but seriously… IMHO it’s not going to happen, and you shouldn’t count on it happening.

                • sorry OQ.

                  Nothing against Catholics… almost became one myself.

                  No, I was referring to the Protestants who basically took the book of Rome and have reinterpreted it 1000 ways from Sunday, this is the Mystery that Rome sewed, and all love. But being mystery, it is not provable, except by faith, hence the divisions and arguments. Many of them don’t even know that protestant means ‘protesting catholics’, hence the above reference. They are all from the mother of harlots, so, that makes them ‘harlots’ by definition.

                  Hold my feet to the fire, please. I need grounding, as all of us do, and you’re right, the Catholic church has much right with it, including right thinking of the rapture nonsense. But there is right thinking in some other faiths, there being, no need for a priesthood to stand between us and God…

                  I consider all faiths equal in one thing, MYSTERY.

                  The thing God and the Book of Revelations condemns, and no preacher or priest can admit.


                • Ah… I understand now! Thank you for the clarification!

      45. @Canada Canuk ~~ Thank you for your response.    I forgot about Burt the Brit.

        I always thought Burt was a male.   No matter.    What is happening in England

        is not good,   800+ are being impacted by the flooding.    I wonder if this is

        unusal weather for them.    90 mph winds along the coast.

        • Emily and CC ~  

          I’m actually really worried about Burt – I haven’t heard from her in over 24 hours, which is very unusual.  From everything I can find online, things are pretty sketchy in her area right now.

          I hope she’s keeping dry and safe!

          ~ D




          • @Daisy……wondering if Burt lost power, she couldn’t access her computer?   not sure with the more up to date phones/ipads, etc.etc. if they need power to operate…..think they do need to  be charged though…..

            I know you will let us know as soon as you find something out about her and her family and their safety….thanx in advance, and take care……CC.

            • CC ~ 

              A power outage is what I’m hoping for, although she still has an Iphone and will usually respond on that.  

              It looks really terrible over there in some places and I read a post from her in the wee hours this morning that didn’t sound too good – I think it was on the last article.

              Definitely keep Burt in your thoughts, folks! 

              ~ D



              • CC and Emily ~

                This is a repost from Burt at about 3 am our time:

                Burt the Brit says:Comment ID: 883381November 25, 2012 at 3:03 am

                Just One Guy

                At this precise moment I am looking out of the kitchen window. It’s the first time in 72 hours it has not been raining but more is expected.

                Area east of here have had it very bad, and we are downhill of them so the flood warnings continue. The is a good bit of space between me and the bottom of those hills so I am hoping all will be well here, there is no major river close by.

                our usual dog walks are washed out or too deep in mud to contemplate But we are lucky, some have sewers overflowing and homes devastated once again by river water and flash flooding.

                take care

              •  My sister’s waters have broken this afternoon, and her house is on top of a hill in Wales. She’s alone in the house with just my 22 month old niece for company.  Although she’s on top of a flood the water company turned off her taps this morning.  (Thank god she has fresh watered stored!).

                You’ve guessed it – the bottom of the hill is flooded, and her hubby, midwife & the in-laws are going to have to leave their cars  to get to her.

                Nothing like a real “situation” to test your preps. Wish her luck please as I’m concerned for her right now.

                • Lone ~Good luck to your sister – please keep us posted!

                  ~ D 

      46. @Canada Canuk ~~  This is post attempt # 2 for you. 

        Thank you for responding to my post.  The flooding in England is pretty awful right now.  800+ homes are impacted by the flooding.  There are winds gusting to 90 mph along the coast.   I wonder if this weather is unusal for the country?

        This is post number 2 – this site is acting wonky again, and it is running SLOW.


      47. Putting aside all the sterotypying. Just who do you think is respondsible for the downfall of the USA?

        Blacks.  Hanging on to their slavery haunts?

        Whites. For their suppresion of others with the Good Ole Boy, policies and politics?

        Jews.     Control of the money and ability to influence politics? Old world bankers

        Islam     Hell bent on a  world dominance? Islamic law.

        All of the above.

        • My answer is, all of them and more. We are a fracture nation because we now speak two langages. An influx of Hatian, Russian, Asian and a myriad of others clinging on and instead of asimulation, they force their foreign cultures on others, using existing laws. This multiculture and political correctness has destroyed the very foundation on which this country was built. In short, we have lost our roots. 

          • I am beginning to feel what the American Indian must have felt when the first white man grace his shores.

            There goes the neighborhood. ;0)

          • watch out slingshot angelo will say your breeding white guilt with the  how your feeling how the native americans felt. Just remember that when the first whites showed up here the natives welcomed them and helped them only to be enslaved and murdered by them. And the whites who came here  did not even use the laws that the natives had they made up their own laws to use against the natives.

            • @ AnonLegion

                   Probably not the best analogy to use. And Angelo can fire away.  But for sure there is plenty of blame to go round.

          • ‘AoTA’ indeed….

      48. @ eeder —

        Facebook Page is the late and unlamented “Cognitive Dissonance” Zionist (Israeli?) shill and troll formerly known on these boards as “Southern Boy” — who used to post the same exact kind of GARBAGE here until he was outed in May of 2012.

        Below are two threads from months ago with typical posts from the so-called “Southern Boy” that EXACTLY parallel and mirror most if not all of FBP’s poorly executed trolling techniques and themes (as well as his psychological pathologies):

        1) FBP’s fixations on Nina-O and Daisy:

        2) FBP’s pompous and arrogant claims to DEFINE the limits of acceptable speech, stifle “unacceptable” speech and then elect himself as the “spokesman” of the so-called “majority” here — this is in the purest ADL style.

        3) FBP’s score-keeping of thumbs-up/thumbs down ratings to buttress his arguments, as if that were in itself an indicator of the truth or falsity of an opinion, which probably indicates that the comment rating system has been undergoing some form of MANIPULATION.

        4) FBP’s ceaseless apologia for Israel’s war crimes and his attacks on anyone who questions the US’s subjugation against its own basic interests to Israel. With his fake personae, his task is to create the false impression that “real” patriotic Amerikans support Israel unconditionally, while concealing from the uninitiated his own very probable Jewish/Israeli identity as well as the destructive (to the US) effects of our relationship with his REAL country.

        5) The writing styles are basically the same, as is the underlying “personality” — a trite and flagrantly bogus good ol’ boy persona (one apparently a veteran) is projected, as is an entitled and self-righteous tone of “victimhood” when he is opposed and identified. Also notable are his inappropriate over-familiarity and lame attempts at “humor,” both intended to ingratiate himself and disarm opponents in advance.

        Basically, he is TRANSPARENT and not very good at what he does, despite his probable private presumptions of “chosenness” and sense doing “G-d’s” (i.e., his people’s) business.

        Here are those SHTFplan threads — anyone who wants to can read and compare “Southern Boy’s” prior postings to FBP’s known output:

        This website and all of its posters are thus the subjects of an actual OPERATION by “interested parties” who DON’T have this country’s best interests in mind. There may be others here, and certainly THIS one will be back here in some other form eventually. He’s got a couple of other PROBABLE identities on SHTFplan concurrent to his FBP mask.

        We should be flattered, if it weren’t so ridiculous.

        • Get a grip, dork. FBP does a fine job pushing your buttons.

        • @Ahab … Awesome Analysis – RESPECT !

          ~N.O. ;0p

        • Ahab, thank you for doing the work and posting the “textual analysis” on FBP/Southern Boy. You nailed the literary forensics. (Should I expect that of someone with an avatar of “Ahab”?) I accused him of being SB when he first took off as FBP, and he was shocked, SHOCKED! at the accusation.  FBP also repeatedly makes a really big deal of his bad spelling/grammar, but even his alleged spelling/grammar problems seem faked. I’ve been on the receiving end of enough really bad student papers to know when someone has a legit problem.

          Keep an eye on the poster named “Large Target” as well–I hadn’t really noticed him around before, and all of a sudden he is posting numerous responses to Daisy, in defense of FBP. Again, he has the writing techinique that I somewhat uncharitably think of as the “verbal runs” in the classic FBP/SB manner. I think I noticed him on the thread or two previous to this article. Obviously, I could be wrong, but it sent up a flag.

          As for his personal status….Not to stereotype, but I just don’t think the intelligence, humor, and debate skills are there. I”m not saying he’s dumb, I’m just saying that if he is, he is probably a great disappointment to his parents.

          • Mama Bear ~

            I have to laugh because I spotted “Large Target” right away too.  It must be a lit major thing, because it was so obvious to me.  I tried to subtly point out to him that I knew he’d created a new identity without actually calling him out on it, but since you’ve “outed” him, I will jump in and agree with you wholeheartedly.

            Ahab, you’re right (like you normally are) – we should be flattered that our opinions seem important enough that trolls are resurfacing constantly.  Doesn’t this just reaffirm your commitment to sharing the truth?  It certainly does for me.

            As well, I hope that other readers will note that anyone targeted by these trolls is likely someone to whom we should pay very careful attention.

            ~ D


      49. @Daisy ~~ Hi Daisy. Please keep us updated on Burt the Brit.  That entire country cannot handle that amount of non-stop rain. I don’t care if England is noted to be wet and rainy all the time.  This is not good.  Of course, the mainstream media is keeping the public dumbed down regarding this.  




        • Hi, Emily –

          I sure will – I’ll let everyone know as soon as I hear from her.  It’s interesting to note that this past summer set records for rainfall too –  the country has just been inundated with water.

          ~ D

          • Hi Daisy,


               Hon, I posted in about the last message I got from Burt  (yesterday) relative to this…it doesn’t SEEM to have gotten posted. Last Forum, towards the bottom, you can read it yourself. I didn’t like the ‘tone’ she was using through it…it didn’y sound good. Specifically, she used the word ‘devastation’ relative to a locale at some proximity to her.

                I am a LITTLE bit bervous for BtB as a result of that…and not having heard from her today…..

            • Same, J1G  ~  Plus I had sent her an email that had a few questions   that she would not have hesitated to answer – we talk frequently outside of here.  That definitely has me concerned.  

              Hopefully she and the family decided to go have a little vacation someplace a bit dry-er.

              ~ D

              • Tank’s Daisy,

                    I am heartened to know that someone here has a more ‘direct’ com with Burt…even if we don’t know anything as yet. Dat’s one big puddle ‘between us’ over in the eastern parts. I know you’ll ‘Head’s-up’ us if you hear anything…send her our best regards if you do.

                   I sent a missive back at Burt yesterday in response to her latest post to me in which I indicated that ‘moving water’ was NOT to be trifled with…bourne out of our own plethtora of recent minor disaster’s the last couple of years. Mayhaps, IF everone’s observations as to how bad it is there are correct, then she might have ‘evacuated’….let’s hope so!

      50. I think this deserves to be posted.  There has been 4 earthquakes; a 4.7 in Rondonia, Brazil, a 4.9 in Aisen, Chile, a 4.9 in the South Sandwich Isalnds, and a 5.1 on the Central  East Pacific Rise.  They all point to the Caribbean Plate.  The one in Brazil, a rare one is on the same longitude line as the eastern portion of the CP. The one on the East Pacific Rise is on the Nazca Plate’s western spreading zone that indicates the plate is on the move in collison like so many other times with the Cocos plate and South American plates that squeeze the CP.  The one in Chile in on the southern most portion of the Nazca Plate and the South Sandwich Islands region alomst 80% of the time indicate a much bigger earthquake coming, even though it was not quite a 5.0.  The one in Brazil was near the Amazon and quite rare. 

        If the quakes were just on the other 3 areas, other than Brazil, I would say look out Peru.  The Brazil earthquake was exactly at where the eastern part of the CP runs at 63 degrees west.  Anyone that is in fear of the area of the Canary Islands collapsing and causing a tsunami, MIGHT just get to see what a true undersea mega thrust fault can do in the Atlantic basin, as it has many times before.  I truly feel that those that think La Palma was responsible for ancient tsunamis should look more closely at a fault, the Caribbean, that really closely resembles the fault that broke in Japan last year with a 9.0 and the Cascadia fault.  I am watching this now, as it is still within the window 80%+ chance of a 6.5+ by Dec.3 from the other polar earthquakes. 

        • Hi BI,

               “Anyone that is in fear of the area of the Canary Islands collapsing and causing a tsunami, MIGHT just get to see what a true undersea mega thrust fault can do in the Atlantic basin, as it has many times before…”

             Oh God, I hope NOT….

          • VERY occaisionally, I can ‘do’ both sides of an argument…

                As support of the titanic forces incolved along the western coast of South America google ‘Toanuanacu’ or somesuch. It’s the location of ancient, astonsihing ruins that rival, or exceed Karnak in terms of the sheer size of the masonry involved.

                Discovered quite some time after the era of the Conquistadores, it was discovered in an absolute shambles….multi-hundred TON blocks of stone tossed about as if by an errant child….the cause of this REMAINS a complete mystery to us today.

            As an aside, this is also the same site which has been covered – somewhat extensively – by a variety of ‘Ancient Astronaut’ theorists relative to the inexplicable, extraordinary stone-work done there….which in the judgement of some several independant modern fabricators of modern stone simply cannot now be reduplicated with out ‘modern’ technological prowess.

          • Just one guy

            I did answer honest…seems I am lost in cyber space lol.

            regarding the Canary Islands. I assume you are referring to the work of Simon Day who predicted a mega tsunami should a chunk of Las Palmas drop into the ocean. Whilst the word discredited would be too strong updated predictions state that this would not be the case, I will try and find the link though I read the paper quite a while ago. I hope he is wrong, or that the people living in the bottom third of the UK have scuba gear…it wouldn’t be pretty down there and not really much time to get out of the way.

            take care

            • BURT!!!, HI!!!,

                  Not to be too dramatic (as per the greeting above 🙂 ) but good to hear from you! Per our last dialogue, in which you expessed using the word ‘devastation’ some few here – myself included – were directly concerned for your welfare…in the absence of any further postings….the best ‘news’ I will have today, I think. 🙂

                  You state, ‘…regarding the canary islands.” above, I presume you have peeked in on BI and I over the last little bit, yes? Actually, the consideration – in my case – arises froim an entirely different source. Specifically, direct physics. I am a physicist by training and a mathematician by choice (and also by training, BA’s in both) and as much as I like BI (whichis to say very, very much) I am reluctant to ‘pass’ on the asserrtions made therefrom. I assure you it is not the FBP/NinaO thing…the opposite in fact, I offer the folowing here to all who would consider it;

                  Suppose, (this IS a ‘gedanken’, a thought-experiment per Mr. A Einstein’s popularization of the German word…) Envisage a cube of water, freestanding, 1 mile by 1 mile by 1 mile…a cubic mile of water as it were. Ask yourself the following question: HOW far would I have to stand away from somesuch in order – at the level of the base –  that me and my two CHILDREN would be safe if the imaginary force holding said cude suddenly ‘vanished’ allowing the cube to free-fall into a body of water over which it was suspended?

                  Now – as stated – this is a ‘gedanken’…I in fact have no children, but I’m sure many here do. My choice of the circumstance above is deliberate, wholly intentional. It has been the case in the past that I have – by His grace – been ‘treated’ to travel the long path to the awesome vastness which is the American Alaska. Along the way I have been priviledged – as have so many others – to witness the spectacle of ‘calving glaciers’. At each incident I witnessed, a striking wave was generated, one which spread out (miles) before having little or no effect on the various cradt from which I have witnessed  such. These viewings were primarily in the Glacier Bay Narional Park which in the vicinity thereof (the glacial bowl) is a broad, wide open space some few miles across…a bay as it were.

                  Suffice it to say that what I have seen – with my own eyes – is sufficient given my understanding of the greater world via physical law, to convince me to engae BI on this subject directly. I DO NOT wish that I – or anyone else – should ever ‘flippantly’ give advice, in a matter of potential life or death that is even remotely biased to the latter….no matter how well intertioned that advice may be. Perchance look over the previous dialogue BI and I have engaged in thus far before this to see the evidence of my motivation in this. I have courteously and graciously asked BI to refrain from pronouncing on this thing unless same has incontrovertible proof to the contrary, proof contradicting the analysis at large and several in number; BI has chosen to pursue the matter openly, here. Enough said, enough of this for the meanwhile!

                 I am very glad, VERY releived that you are safe and hale. Given the circumstances about you (around you now) I suspect you may be ‘a tad’ busy for the next few days. Be that as it may, return as quickly as you can so as to share your ‘tale’ with us of the “Great UK  Blow” we’d all like to hear it! 🙂

                G’Day Mate!! 🙂

              • Dang it, J1G – I hit the red thumb instead of the green one!  SORRY!!!!

                • S’Ok Daisy…I don’t come here for the thumbs…I COME here for the PEOPLE.! 🙂 Nonetheless, the intent is NOTED! 🙂

        • Just a thank you BI.

          Since nobody seemed to… can’t have you thinking we don’t care…


      51. I have been trying to post this for a while. This is a list of things that will come in handy if we are trying to rebuild from the ground up. I hope it post this time.

        BIBLE (or Whatever sustains you morally and spiritually)

        Claw Hammer

        Tack Hammer

        Hack saw with extra blades

        Roofers Spade

        Drywall Hatchet

        Roofers Hatchet

        Hemming Tools

        Left Tin Snips

        Right Tin Snips

        Straight Tin Snips

        Dry wall Saw

        Socket Sets (SAE & Metric)

        Screwdriver Set

        Combination Wrench Set (SAE & Metric)

        Allen Wrench Set

        Torx Wrench Set

        Star Wrench set

        Wood Planer

        Brace Drill and Bit Set

        Draw Knives

        Single Side Axe

        Double Side Axe

        Pick Axe


        Ball Pin Hammer

        Bow Saw


        Post Hole Digger

        Metal File Set

        Wood File Set

        Utility Knife with Blades

        Wood Chisel Set

        Cross Cut Saw

        Tape Measure (SAE & Metric)

        Roofing Square

        Framing Square

        Combination Square

        Torpedo Level

        Four or Six Foot Level

        Metric and SAE Tap and Die Set

        Plumb Bob

        PVC/Pipe Cutter with spare wheel blades

        Log Saw (One Man and Two Man)

        Crow Bar

        Pry Bar

        Pliers Set


        Cement Float Tool

        Inside Corner Trowel

        Outside Corner Trowel

        Cement Trowel with wood handle

        Square Cement Trowel

        Other Cement and Concrete Tools, etc…

        Rubber Boots


        Work Gloves

        Back Support Lifting Belt

        Safety/Reflective Vest

        Hard Hat

        Knee Pads

        Elbow Pads

        Wire Brushes

        Metric and SAE Nut driver Set

        Vise Grip Pliers

        Paint Brushes

        Paint Rollers

        Paint Roller Trays

        Paint Scrapers

        Putty Knives


        Swiss Army Knives

        Folding Knife

        Fixed Blade Knife

        Gut Hook Knife

        Bone Saw

        Skinning Knife

        Filet Knife

        Precision Screwdrivers

        Lock Pick Set

        Chalk Line/Chalk Line Set

        Lineman’s Pliers


        Wire Stripper Crimpers

        Ground Lug Crimper(s)

        Adjustable Wrenches

        Pipe Wrenches

        Strap Wrenches

        Metric and SAE Nut Driver BIT SET(s)

        Wood Glue Clamp Sets

        Wood Punch Set

        Metal Punch Set

        Long Handle Sledge Hammer

        5lb Short Handle Sledge Hammer

        Cold Chisel

        Caulk Gun

        Steel Wool

        Sand Paper

        Fence Pliers

        Conduit Reamer





        Push Reel Lawn Mower

        Rechargeable Batteries

        Solar Battery Recharger


        Hole Saw Kit

        Counter Sink Punch Set

        Manual Hand Pump for Well


        Slugbuster Knockout Set (Up to 4”)(Round and Square)(Manual and Hydraulic)

        Manual Conduit Benders (1/2”, ¾”, 1”, Offset)



        Melting Pot

        Nails, Toggle Bolts, Machine Screws, Fender Washers, Wing Nuts, Dry Wall Screws, Roofing Nails, Deck

        Screws,, Nuts, assorted hardware, Door Locks, Door Latches, window Locks, Storm Shutters,

        Hinges, Night Latches, Tacks, Staplers, Stapler, Door Stops, etc…

        Duct Tape

        Gorilla Tape

        Pruning Snips

        Hedge Trimmers

        Yard Rake

        Garden Rake


        Pitch Fork

        Garden Spades

        US Military Pot Belly Stoves

        US Military Yukon Stoves

        Wood Stoves

        Cast Iron Cookware

        Dutch Oven Cookware


        Camp Cooking Tripod

        Clothes Pins

        Animal Traps


        Clothes Hangers

        Various Brooms



        Rat Traps

        Hearing Protection

        Painters Mask(s)

        Rain Suit

        “POSTED” Signs

        “NO TRESSPASSING” Signs

        Sturdy Work Boots

        Spare Laces

        Sand Bags

        Copper Sheeting

        Lead Roof Sheeting

        Fishing Tackle and Gear

        Cast nets

        Gill Nets

        Knife Sharpener


        Sewing Accessories and Kit

        Manual Batter Mixer

        GOLD Coins

        SILVER Coins

        All types of Books and Educational Materials

        Nails, Nuts, Bolts, Washers, Screws, Tacks, etc…

        Take care all and keep on preppin!

        **Admin Edited: Modified for two column display **


             I don’t think I could have put it ALL down in one swath as good as that! 🙂

          • @ Drifter,

               I’ve started a new ‘rolling’ document on my ‘pute SHTFPlanQuotes with this list as the start! REALLY GOOD LIST!!!!!!

        • @ Drifter.  You know what I just did?  I made a copy on the printer of your most excellent list and I am going to take this to the next garages sales I go to.  Thank you for spending the time to get all of us this list. 

        • That’s just enough stuff to keep a rural home functional.  We’re going to need a lot more than that, including things like wood- or coal-fired steam engines, belt-driven machine tools, draft horses, plow horses, farriers, smiths, farmers to feed the farm laborers, iron and steel, moldmakers, all manner of skills. 

        • Thank you so much for this list! As a dyslexic I’m crap at producing organisational stuff like this for myself so having a tick list like this is just SO useful when browsing boots fairs and thrift markets. 



      52. Co co & fbp  –  Sooner or later after all the back and forth it always comes down to “mines bigger than yours “

        When all else fails It’s school yard rules.

        Even in the apocalypse. lol

      53. BI,  thank you for the tip about using honey for a bee sting.  You’re absolutely right about this forum being for like-minded people learn and share information from each other’s experiences.  The more we can learn from each other and apply that knowledge to our own personal lives, the better chances we all have of surviving in the post-SHTF world which i fear is much closer than any of us suspect.  I love coming to this site every day and reading all of the useful information that people contribute here.  Plus i contribute information myself on occasion; no problem there.  I’m perfectly happy to give survival tips that i have for other people who come on here for the first time and want to learn about survival in all kinds of adverse situations.  I hope as many good people as possible make it all the way through the post-SHTF world regardless of how long it lasts.   I just scroll through all the posts with people fighting each other;  it’s so ridiculous and childish.  I especially enjoy all of your posts, BI; you’re definitely one of the sharpest blades in this house.  best wishes to all and keep prepping.   Braveheart

        • @ braveheart.  I truly believe that there is a treasure trove out there of fantastic ideas from people that have yet to join into the conversation.  Just look at that awesome list that Drifter sent in.  I made a copy of this and it is going to made it a lot easier at garage sales to know what to look for as sometimes it just doesn’t register that 25 or 50 cent item serves a purpose.  Someone once asked about what to look for at garage sales, well Drifter sure posted a list that covers most.

          I think that one reason why some people don’t post is because they are afraid of ridicule by the ugly words spewed out by the common trolls that sometimes visit like the local cockroach.  I think also it is because they don’t feel that their idea or notion is not good enough for others to consider, which of course is hardly the case.  I sure hope others that don’t comment will start to share their ideas also, it sure adds to the site. 

      54. @Daisy – If mac ever gets the pm going on this site,I would like to pm you.  I like your posts and your thoughts, and would like to share my own thoughts and concerns with you soon, if that is o.k.  I would give out my email address, but this site is too public for me.

        • Emily – I’d love that!  

          If you want to reach me before that my email address is daisyluther at ymail dot com

          ~ D

      55. SBG, I lived in Coral Gables from 1975 to 1982 and my wife was from Madruga in Matanzas Province.  She was from a large family but lost half of them to Castro’s thugs.   braveheart

      56. @Daisy – Just sent you an email. Emily.

        • got it and responded 🙂

      57. Evening Solar Report,

            Solar X-Flux levels remain low but began rising slowly from 20:00 UTC until a short while ago. This uptrend was lead by the 1.0-8.0 angstrom low band trace, later followed by a two-decade increase in the 0.5-4.0 angstrom high band’s activity (from bottom of graph baseline…almost below measureable, apriori) . The activity is just now beginning to subside marginally…a trend is not yet indicated. At last inspection the flux was posting at C-1.1.

             Over the last half-hour the traces of all the magnetometers I have seen show a distinct deviation from true and also the GOES-13/15 Electron Flux appears to be abruptly decreasing. Futher flare activity may follow based on these observations. Additionally, the Denver magnetometer shows a distinct, though as yet not significant deflection corresponding to the preceding observations.

            The SWIFT light-curve repository now has the plot of the latest GRB catalogued last night, same is of the ‘middling’ intersity sort.

        • Addenda,

               As of a few minutes ago a small but statistically distinct surge in the proton flux sensor readings from the GOES-13 platform became evident in the plots. This may serve to explain the general deflections from normal we are seeing in the other sensor suites ove the last few hours.

          • Addebda 2,

                From the NOAA SWPC Warning Center:

               Space Weather Message Code: SUMSUDSerial Number: 165Issue Time: 2012 Nov 26 0530 UTCSUMMARY: Geomagnetic Sudden ImpulseObserved: 2012 Nov 26 0514 UTCDeviation: 8 nTStation: Boulder

                Ah, knew something was up earlier, still don’t know what this preasges though. In summa, this IS a small ‘Sudden Impulse’ not indicative of any major event about to transpire. ‘Bookeeping’ relative to the previous post as it were….

      58. @Canada Canuk ~~But for the Grace of God Go I,   I say that all the time, it is refreshing to hear another like minded person say this.  Thank you.

        • @Emily…….You are most welcome……sometimes it is the only thing that “sustains” me, (as there are so many terrible “things” going on all around us!!  take care, CC

      59. Since so many were interested in bees, this his a great movie/documentary

        GMO, single crops, imported bees, all affecting them.  I actually had to chase a bunch out of my house the other day, and it had been quite cold.  Speaking of retail honey crap, did you know WM has been importing from China, and yes they add junk to it.  

        Oh, and my great grandma used spider webs for bandages!  Mom told me yesterday not to knock her webs down she’s saving them for SHTF, LOL!


      60. Thanks for posting this – free is my favorite price!

        One note – the list of medical related books appears to be missing [p415-146? area] from the download- I am guessing this from the * indicating that an actual Doctor is better than trying to go by the book [Merck Manual?]

        • Thank you for bringing that up, and my apologies for not catching it on the e-copy. I’ll try to get a fix up tomorrow morning at the earliest (as soon as I find out why the PDF blew up… I have the one formatted for the printers which has everything correct, so I’ll stitch that in tonight and send it up on the share site.)

          • Found it… Google Drive had borked it. I re-synced it, and it should appear well now.

      61. Mac:

        Perhaps we need the “flame wars section” sooner than expected…

        YOU get to be the one with the wisdom to choose which ones get the  “fickle of fate”(I just learned where that came from,of all places,T&C magazine!).That way some folks learn to be more polite or at least more creative.

        Just a minor thought,



      62. For all of you who were worried about Burt the Brit:

        I heard from her this morning (well, her version of morning, middle of the night on this side of the ocean!)  She and her family are well, and although the situation nearby sounds pretty dire, where she lives is okay for now.

        Update complete. 🙂

        ~ D

        • @ Daisy,

             Thanks Daisy…much relieved to hear the Burt is OK. We’ll look forward to hearing her tale at such time as she can be here again! Presumably they are experiancing local grid problems/internet outages…logically, Yes?

      63. Thanks TJ for the article and “free download”.  I’m sure some people will benefit greatly.

         I don’t mean to be disrespectful but I do want to point out that everyone should keep their priorities straight when reading and following anyone’s advice, other than the Creator’s book/letter.

         The comment about; ” …likely take a century or more to get back to where we are now…”, is not a good outlook for the future.  I for one, do “not” want to ever get back to where we are now.  Of course,  if the Lord tarries for some unforseen reason, and people/grandchildren/great-grandchildren are allowed a period to rebuld before Christ returns, then I would hope they learned from history not to take the path as we have in the past century that led to this mess.

         I don’t think man, by himself can ever right the wrongs of the past 4000 years.  It will be achieved when, and only when Christ returns to power as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.  Keeping this in mind, I believe there will not be an Apocalypse

      64. … sorry, wasn’t finished and hit submit by mistake.

        continue……… of epic proportions before Christ returns.   I do, however; believe we will see in the next decade, a third World War that has a death toll of one third of the world’s population as it is foretold.   There will more than likely be American lives involved, but it will mainly be contained to the Middle East.

          An event such as this will have an impact and everyone should be planning and prepping accordingly.  I don’t think we will have to re-emerge from the dust and ashes with only a few metal implements and have to rebuild from scratch. 

        • No worries… disagreement is a good thing, IMHO. 


          I staked it out to 100+ years because of two things:

          1) History. Nearly ever great empire that fell hard left a great big hole that every little warlord with a gun and a gang wanted to fill. I see no difference now.

          2) Knowledge. Yep, we have a lot of books, but how many people actually have a working library of paper books? Most of our knowledge nowadays goes into a computer. There’s also the problem of replicating the more complex parts of manufacturing… for instance, how exactly does one make a transistor from scratch, let alone an integrated circuit, and forgetting all about a working CPU? How exactly does one repair a car that has no known spare parts, and is loaded with on-board computers that are required just to keep the engine running? Given that even farm equipment is similarly built nowadays (and has been for some time), this is a pretty big problem to solve. So what happens when the still-working bits of civilization break down with no means to replace them? Transformers the size of buses, large-scale turbines, tires (rubber and petroleum are both largely harvested from halfway across the planet, after all).

          It’s not that people will suddenly get stupid, but that a lot of the bits needed to make it all go are specialized, rare and more often than not sited far away from where you are, and worse, from other bits that a given item may depend on.

          The Roman Empire is an excellent example here. They had books (well, scrolls and clay tablets), writing, and a sizeable percentage of the population who were literate. In spite of that, the aqueducts broke down because the few engineers around who still knew how to fix them didn’t have the concrete they needed to keep it water-tight, or a means of getting enough fresh cut stone. In either case they often couldn’t get to the crumbling section of aqueduct because travel was too dangerous to even attempt. Meanwhile, everyone was busy trying to fend off raiding barbarians, or at least trying to minimize the damage they did. 

          Let me put it this way: When Alaric the First marched into Rome in 410AD to sack it, he already found the aqueducts and sewers broken and/or silted-up, and most of the residents living in squalor:

          But some say that Rome was not captured in this way by Alaric, but that Proba, a woman of very unusual eminence in wealth and in fame among the Roman senatorial class, felt pity for the Romans who were being destroyed by hunger and the other suffering they endured; for they were already even tasting each other’s flesh; and seeing that every good hope had left them, since both the river and the harbor were held by the enemy, she commanded her domestics, they say, to open the gates by night.”



      65. I just glanced over the book, overall much good stuff.  Some things I disagree with, but not much.

        however, this one is clearly a mistake:

        If you’re looking at pre-1962 quarters and dimes, you have 97% silver.

        correct me if I’m wrong but:

        first, it’s pre 64

        second it’s not 97%, it’s 90% since purity of those coins are listed in all of the catalogues as .900


        • Glad to hear from you, Giurza–we know from Daisy that you are okay, although the European situation is increasingly difficult,  but it is nice to see you here. I miss your thoughtful posts & perspective.

          • Hi Mama Bear,

            I really miss you and others (most) here. I’ve decided to take a break from commenting, because of … plethora of reasons…

            yeah, situation in Lit was bad enough before, and now to add the topping on the pile, we got ourselves a new gooberment… right from the first day they announced new wonderful laws to be introduced

            A few pearls of theirs:

            if you want to sell your house, you’ll need to obtain a paper (buy more like it) showing the thermal resistance your house has

            ban of all cash transactions above 5000 ltu (thats ca 1852$)


            anyway, that’s the new stuff, otherwise it’s old same, old same.

      66. I just glanced over the book, overall much good stuff.  Some things I disagree with, but not much.

        however, this one is clearly a mistake:

        If you’re looking at pre-1962 quarters and dimes, you have 97% silver.

        correct me if I’m wrong but:

        first, it’s pre 64

        second it’s not 97%, it’s 90% since purity of those coins are listed in all of the catalogues as .900


        EDIT: trying to repost it, since the comment doesn’t show up (either as “under moderation” or otherwise) and the system says that I’m trying to double post…


        • No worries – I’ll make the requisite corrections, and thank you for mentioning it. I’d meant to correct it a long time back but had forgotten to.

      67. I can only think of one word…disgusting.

        Oscar-winning actor Jamie Foxx recently called Barack Obama “our lord and savior.”Link on Drudge Report

      68. Morning Solar Report,

             Solar activity rose marginally through the night and has during the last several hours been ‘hovering’ around the C-1.0 level. The character of the activity is somewhat chaotic, in other words, ‘spiky’…this is evident in both the high and low bands of GOES-15’s X-ray sensor data.

            Planetary magnetometers are returning to normal traces and the measured GOES Electron Flux levels are climbing higher returning to normal values also. Last evening’s small ‘Sudden Impulse’ – which has proven to be of no consequence – remains a ‘small’ mystery…no such event was anticipated in that time-frame.

            Over the last two days two additianl spot groups have been enumerated by NOAA, numbered as 11620 and 11621. The former emerged from the Solar surface  and has since developed rather rapidly. Optically small, the magnetic signature of same is robust and significant intermixing – at, or above the levels seen is 11618 previously – are evident at this time. This group – if further development occurs – could be the spot group to watch over the next few days. 11621 is a small bi-polar, compact spot group which rotated into view along the eartern limb more than 24 hours ago and which at this time does not appear to pose any signifcant risk of energetic activity.

             11618 has decayed significantly and no longer appears threatening. Samer continues along it’s arc of travel and will in the next 48 hours be at or nearing the western solar limb.

      69. @ All,


            On a completely seperate note; the markets have opened today and are getting somewhat smacked…Dow down ~ 75 points, NASDAQ and S&P also down though less so.

            I have a challenge to those here at the site who are wholly versed in the ‘art of the financial’…if you, in fact, are wholly competent in the matters associated with the financial sphere, consider posting here such that another ‘barometer’ would be available to those (here) by which to gauge the ‘progress’ of what is occuring around us all. Some few here – per specific disciplines – already do so (with some regularity). Perhaps, you might graciously deign to ‘enter’ into things here more fully. Rest assured, your efforts here would be appreciated…I beleive that THIS is the likliest point of failure in the world as we know it today. Consider this if you will…many Thank’s in advance. 🙂

      70. Pretty sad when a Russian newspaper has figured it out, but so many here in the US haven’t.

        “Recently, Obama has been re-elected for a 2nd term by an illiterate society and he is ready to continue his lies of less taxes while he raises them. He gives speeches of peace and love in the world while he promotes wars as he did in Egypt, Libya and Syria.”

        “He is a Communist without question promoting the Communist Manifesto without calling it so. How shrewd he is in America. His cult of personality mesmerizes those who cannot go beyond their ignorance. They will continue to follow him like those fools who still praise Lenin and Stalin in Russia. Obama’s fools and Stalin’s fools share the same drink of illusion.”

        Title: Russian Newspaper: Obama Was Re-Elected by “Illiterate Society”

        posted at Town Hall

      71. @BI Thank you so much for your response and the relevant information that you have given in relation to the CP (Caribbean Plate). The latest earthquakes in the region were:

        17 hrs ago a 4.4 mag. in Columbia 158 km in depth

        10 hrs ago a 3.6 mag. in Puerto Rico 97 km in depth

        3 hrs ago a 4.5 mag near the coast of Nicaragua 28 km in depth

        Trying to wake up people to this information because we are a small island (238 Sq miles) but everyone seems to think that the government will inform the public (which includes my husband).  I am depending on your interpretation to know exactly what action to take.  In the meantime, I am looking to make alternative arrangements to be out of harms way for this big one.  Thank you and everyone else who make such important contributions on this site.  May the Almighty Creator who helps those who help themselves  protect us all.


        My Best wishes to you again ‘Be Informed.’

        • @ Truebrew.  238 sq.miles is not that small, it is larger than the Virgin Islands.  If you look at the USGS map you will see the eastern portion of the Caribbean Plate, it is a line that is about 200 miles to the east of where you are, which I assume is either St. Lucia, Martinique, or maybe St. Vincent.  This plate boundary is a subduction zone.  The likely event is that the northern portion of the South American Plate will force the Caribbean Plate upwards or it may buckle under it.  The upward thrust of either plate will cause a tsunami exactly like what it did in Japan.

          This plate boundary is not as large as The Japanese trench region but can generate a similar size earthquake depending on how much oceanic crust is moved both vertically and horizontally.  Also how violently this sudden movement is.  The Caribbean has been hit with tsunamis before, especially in the 1700’s, a date escapes me at this time, I think it was in the 1760’s or 1770’s.  The further you are away from the plate boundaries the better.  200 miles is not very far, but certainly better than a few miles from it.  Case in point the Indonesia mega quake in which nearby villages to the point of break will completely annihilated by the tsunami and the total death count is mere an estimation of how many lived in these villages before it happened. 

          I am hardly an expert on tsunamis and really only guess at the size.  I would say a 8.5-9.0 would likely generate a tsunami of 15-20 meters or about 50-65 feet near to the point of the boundary.  200 miles away I would believe that it would probably be about 10-15 meters or 30-50 feet.  A thousand miles away it would likely be about 5-10 meters of about 15-30 feet tall maximum. 

          This world continues to surprise me, but I would expect it to top 9.0.  IF it did, then you are talking about something that would rival Indonesia of Alaska in 1964.  I really don’t understand why any island nation would not have some sort of early warning storm system that could be tied into a tsunami warning.  I am not familar with New Zealand for example, but they very much in danger of very large tsunamis. 

          I have been on the La Palma kick because many people have been warned about this volcanic region collapsing and it causing a mega tsunami that would totally inudate most islands in the Caribbean.  This is hyperbole and pure garbage.  I strive to warn people of true hazards, especially going by the past events to help prove them to be true or false.  The Caribbean is in no danger from the Canary Islands.  This region is in danger from the Caribbean Plate though and has been for millions of years.  The plate has had those large earthquakes on the western flank and just weeks apart.  On top of the Haiti earthquake that was a horizontal fault like the San Andreas, all indications point to the lastest stages of the plate getting ready for some true movement, on the east. 

          Knowing tsunami signs are essential to survival and action, quickly to get to higher ground.  You will have at best 30 minutes to move, more likely 20 minutes before the water rushes in.  Anything over a minute of shaking and I would get inland and high up as possible.  Anything over 3 minutes of shaking and I would run in an orderly manner to safety.  I would defintely not be telling you this to unnecessarily frighten you.  I just know what subduction zones are capable of all over the world, and it has happened before to your area. 

          Watch for earthquakes that indicate stress building towards the plate.  The real earthquake that I would be most concerned over was that rare one in Brazil that was 4.7 that was on the same longitude line, 63 degrees west, as the eastern portion of the Caribbean Plate.  This one was somewhere not accustomed to quakes, in the flat Amazon jungle.  It directly linked to the plate and shows tension being directed away from the totally locked section of the plate.  Distant foreshocks I call them.  It would be wonderful of after this happens you and others can comment back that you rode it out safely.  God speed to all that live close to this zone WHEN it happens. 

          • @BI, thank you so much for the information, I am monitoring the quakes in this region so that at least I will have some time to get my family to safety. Even before I found this site I had three dreams of tsunamis hitting the island.  You’re dead on right, I live in St. Lucia confirmation that you have a pretty good idea of what you’re talking about.  I pray that when it hits, I make it out safely.

      72. There will be no civilization around to rebuild, only tribes. The way you people are bitching at one another is petty and shows that there’s no hope of a brighter future.

        This is a make believe scenario, take it for what it is and have fun with it.  Don’t make me send you to your room without your supper.

      73. A lot of stuff here. I don’t see a total breakdown that will send us back to the 1800’s. You may want to check out the Bible book of Revelations to have an idea of what is coming.  The coming battle is as much spiritual as physical. We are in the conditioning phase, the main event will soon come. Prepare patriots both physically and spiritually.

      74. THE LORD says america has gone to far,caused the death of to many children ,poisoned to many lands and its over for america,HE says america will NEVER be allowed to rise again,it will be small villages and thats it,the 1820’s here we come………if your prepping,think about what you just heard,I have recieved a guided tour, americas really a mess when the dust settles,all the towns and cities are gone……and everything is covered with mud,really deep mud to……………….

      75. Yayyyy!!! New Forum Is UP, looks like a good one…see ya all there!……

      76.  @Piper Michael

         Yes. Yes. Yes.  The truth comes out. I agree with your points. A two headed snake that we are stuck with. For the time being of course. I’m just the one that gets stepped on all the time and I have no say in most decisions.

        Lots of monsters have been called on to do other peoples dirty work cause they can not do it themselves. And many will be called on.

      77. Come  on patriots. Let us look at solving the problems we are all going to face and stop cutting each other up. Our future depends on it.

      78. Great gratitude for the offering, TJ Miller (Odd Questioner), and much thanks to Mac Slavo for the posting, which brought it to my attention.  I downloaded the e-version and ordered the hard-copy, shared its availability with familty and friends and (gasp!) professional colleagues, strongly recommending they do likewise.  As you give, you will receive.  Congrats for your karmic boost!

      79. Guess all of you were waiting for the end of the Mayan calendar… Dec 21, 2012.

        Well here we are Oct 2013 and …

        nothing yet…

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