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When is it OK to defend your life and property?

Mac Slavo
September 8th, 2010
SHTFplan.com
Comments (48) Read by 469 people

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George Grier of Long Island has been arrested and charged for reckless endangerment for firing four warning shots into the ground when up to as many as twenty individuals stormed his property.

According to Grier, he was entering his home when five men approached and invaded his property. He ran into the home, directed his wife to call police, and returned to his front lawn with an AK-47 at which point even more individuals rounded the corner and began threatening him. Grier says the men threatened to kill him and his family.

To deter the potential assailants, he then fired his AK-47 into the ground.

Grier was subsequently arrested and charged. No others have been charged.

We are of the opinion that Mr. Grier’s actions are expressly protected by the United States Constitution, regardless of the intricacies of New York State law. Grier has been charged with reckless endangerment – creating a risk to human life, a risk that someone’s going to die. Mr. Grier was responding to a risk that someone was going to die, he did not create that risk.

The use of force in response to what law enforcement perceives to be a lack of  force on the part of the trespassers in this case is a gross misinterpretation of the events.

A criminal does not have to have a weapon to forcefully enter a home and assault its residents, especially if the criminals number twenty individuals suspected of being part of a violent gang who are instigating the threats on private property.

In our view, the fact that these individuals were on Mr. Grier’s property, making physical threats against him, his wife and his children is reason enough for Mr. Grier to not only fire warning shots, but to take all available means to eliminate the threat.

This is exactly the reason why high powered, semi-automatic weapons should be a part of every home defense plan.

For those who believe Mr. Grier overstepped his bounds, consider what you would do if twenty suspected gang members were on your lawn threatening to kill your entire family.

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Author: Mac Slavo
Views: Read by 469 people
Date: September 8th, 2010
Website: www.SHTFplan.com

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48 Comments...

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  1. Sketch says:

    “When is it OK to defend your life and property?”

    Never. Didn’t you get the memo? you do not own any property. It can be taken by the state at any time for any/no reason. You do not own your life. you can be conscripted for any reason at any time. You are only borrowing these things for a short while, citizen.

  2. sanityjones says:

    In many states a shotgun in not considered a deadly weapon from a legal perspective………….Step out the door with Mr. Mossberg and a six-pack of tall boys (3″ mags loaded up with buckshot) instead. Where I live all that need be determined is did I feel that my life was threatened in the event leading up to a show of force or lethal force. If so, then any action I may necessarily take in order to preserve my life is appropriate and lawful.

  3. Hillary says:

    This makes me so furious it’s ridiculous.  They did not use force against him?  I believe that if those twenty gang members decided to physically beat up this man and his family, the man could have done nothing to stop them, because twenty men are clearly stronger than one- thus the need for him to involve a firearm to protect himself.  These men were on his property, threatening him and his family, and yet this man had the will power to not react by shooting them all, but instead by firing a warning shot to get help from the police.  It breaks my heart that we live in a world where criminals have more right than law abiding citizens, a world where it is wrong to protect your wife and children from someone threatening to harm them.

  4. TnAndy says:

    “In many states a shotgun in not considered a deadly weapon from a legal perspective…”

    Really ?   You got a State law that says that ?  Care to cite it ?

    You gotta love internet lawyers…….

  5. Mr. Mossberg was not the answer for this situation. Neither was high POWERED. This situation (20 bad guys coming at you) requires high CAPACITY. I’m re-evaluating both my home defense and carry arrangements because of this event. One or two dead gangbangers might have dispersed the bunch or it might have just riled them all up. I may have to switch from carrying my 1911 and start using my XD.

    How can we show this guy some support?

  6. ANON says:

    so……………what happened to the mara13 guys?

    ain’t law enforcement  <VOMIT>…<VOMIT>……and the judiciary  <VOMIT>…….. just wonderful.

  7. Sketch says:

    @TnAndy

    aside from the ‘deadly weapon’ aspect, I think (in)sanityjones is referring to the ‘line in the sand’ or ‘no duty to retreat’ clauses found in some form in all ‘castle doctrines’ held by some states.

    See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine

    re: ‘deadly weapon’ question (quick google) see also: http://www.pennydean.org/content/shotgun-deadly-weapon

  8. lostinmissouri says:

    Missouri, just last year passed the “Castle Law” which is very similar to Texas’ law.
    Our castle law made it legal to shoot those bastards for threatening you and family on your own property.   They don’t have to break in your home, here ,  for you to have the right to defend self and property.
    Many have forgotten the old saying  “an armed society is a polite society”
    Missouri’s law includes your car in a shopping mall parking lot….Missouri considers your car as part of your “castle”,  which means Missourians can legally protect themselves from attack , even in a parking lot.
    MIZ-ZOU!  YEAH!  (ps: don’t move here–you won’t like it.)

  9. Scar says:

    This man acted properly and sanely in defending his family. He had a legally purchased firearm and was on his own property at the time. Firing into the ground shows to me that he didn’t want to escalate the danger to him and his family, he wanted to end it without bloodshed.

    If he is an innocent family man being threatened by a gang of thugs, he acted courageously. I don’t know all the facts in this case and I don’t understand why MS-13 was targeting him unless they were doing the same thing they do in LA which is “ethnic cleansing” of all Blacks out of Hispanic neighborhoods and their surrounding environs.

  10. Dave says:

    I’m all for citizens having guns and I don’t care if they try to ban guns, I will still have them,but I don’t believe that the men “continued to threaten him” when he appeared with an AK,I believe that he just ran out of the house and impulsively started firing his rifle.

  11. Patriot One says:

    I don’t know what NY law says, but in most states you have the right to defend yourself from serious injury. I think his mistake was the warning shots. When you have to defend yourself or another person from serious injury you never draw your weapon unless you intend to kill something or someone.

    Down here in Florida if they were on my lawn and making threats, Bang your dead. If you threaten me or my family with serious injury I will send you for an eternal dirt nap, no warning shot. I’m aiming for the fatal T.

  12. sanityjones says:

    @ sketch,
    Thanks for the links, it is a vague matter (is a shotgun a deadly weapon) and really depends on the case and just how far the (individual) state is willing to go to convict. What happens in NYC is not going to be treated  the same as what happens in podunk Wyoming. I have had personal experience in this matter in the State of Idaho………..at the time a shotgun was not lawfully considered a “deadly weapon”. Obviously that is not the case, however according to the law at that time there was no lawful avenue of conviction. Personally I could care less as I will defend myself and loved ones anytime, anyplace, anywhere I happen to be regardless of what the “Law” says. Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness…………don’t tread on me.

  13. TnAndy says:

    Sketch…..I’m aware of, and in complete agreement with Castle doctrine laws, which many States do have……to keep local prosecutors in check.

    But to say “In many states a shotgun in not considered a deadly weapon from a legal perspective…”  I suspect is bullshit, and I tend to call bullshit when I see it.  I rather doubt there is any State with a law on the books that actually says that, but I’m open to correction.

    Your pennydean.org reference would seem to be some technical, appellate point in which the original trial judge didn’t ask the jury to consider whether a guy firing a shotgun at his wife in public mall was use of a deadly weapon…..which to anyone of common sense would sort of seem obvious.  Shotguns were banned for  general military use under the Geneva Convention as being TO deadly after WWI….not sporting I guess, compared to water cooled Vickers machine gun…….or an electric powered Gatlin “mini” gun….ahahahaaaaa.

    Personally, I love my Mossberg 500, and it’s what I reach for when things “go bump in the night”.  The ability to send 9-12 .30cal  pellets out the barrel in a single pull trumps most handguns, and just the sound of a slide racking a round into the chamber is enough to restore sanity to many situations.  IF it weren’t a ‘deadly weapon’, I would be looking for something that was……

  14. VRF says:

    if this man gets convicted of anything..than We the People have failed him, and ourselfs..all of us..

    because..this is coming to a front door dear to you someday..

    this needs to be trown out of court, the man given back his firearm so he has the ability to protect his self and family..
    cops are glorified janitors, they just show up afterward to clean up, take notes and stick numbers by the shell casings.
    The have “No duty to protect” look it up.
    maybe he should have leveled the playing field so to speak..I bet all of these thugs were in possesion of something illegal…if not sucks to be them, you dont go in mass threatining a person and their family with 20+ people and not expect retaliation or self defense..
    stupid ..cops..and to think maybe next week 20 Mofo’s will come down on one cop..whats that story going to look like? you think for one minuet the cop will be viewed as the bad guy for firing a warning shot?
    think people..we the people need to wake our sleeping court judges up..do you think for one second if this was one of the “chosen” types , that this would have been played out like this?

  15. VRF says:

    I have had my family threatened with death., wife, daughter, myself..verbally and documented, and submitted.
    We know who the threat is..S&W we dont leave home without it.
    and with us already being put on the mark, I wouldnt have fired any warning shots.

    gang bangers and punks be aware..there are those of us who wont wait to find out why you want to kill us..there are those of us who will take action, and rightfully, and lawfully so.

    My idea of gun control is hitting your target, with each and every round as you empty the mag.

    Im not trained as an officer of the law..so excessive force, when put in a life or death situation.. is all I know

  16. Donny Booch says:

    I don’t care what the gov says. If I have a crowd of armed men on my property making threats, damned right they had better leave immediately or I’m gonna lets the courts and my lawyer take care of it later. I might be a lefty, but I am a highly trained lefty.

  17. Bill says:

    I’m in total agreement with all of you.  He had every right to shoot.  Here in Michigan the Castle law rules.  My family first.   Piss on the laws when it’s all going down regardless of the lawyers.    Question – How close does a crowd have to be before you shoot?   On parts of my property I’d have to get my scope.  If they were still on my property, am I right?  Where’s the intent?  You gotta draw a line somewhere but at the same time…………..?     I wouldn’t want to be put in the situation.  This is the gray area, maybe?
    A good website to check for Castle law is     http://tekel.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/the-castle-doctrine-a-state-by-state-summary/

  18. oneshotkill says:

    All of you that have posted comments so far and this Mr. Grier’s need to take an NRA home defense course. Then when your done with that get very educated on all firearm laws in the state and town you live in. The community in the video will be much safer without Mr. Grier’s RECKLESS ENDANGERMENT.

  19. Bill says:

    oneshotkill  -  I hear ya on this but I don’t think this is the question.  Maybe I’m wrong.  I wouldn’t give a rip about any law or any damn lawyer if my family was seriously in danger.  This was his call and he made it.  I guess if the legal aspects of it were in question he should have waited till the “police” were there.   There are always two sides of the story, we pretty much only get one side. 

  20. greaseman says:

    Comments…..  this case sounds like a good place for a lawsuit against the cops for wrongfull arrest. I’m sure the NRA would probably kick in a couple bucks for the lawsuit.  Heck, I’d probably donate a fiver for this guy.  something’s gotta give.

  21. McDeux says:

    I’d rather be judged by 12 than carried by six, anyone comes after me and mine will find that life on this planet will short for them and theirs…

    No eloquent words, no pissing around, MS13 and the rest of their ilk have no place in this world or the next

  22. Durango Kidd says:

    What is most alarming to me is the trend that this example and others show how police are responding and reacting to “shots fired”. Even in Arizona discharging a weapon within the city limits, for any reason, falls under the random shot law created to limit celebrating New Years Eve by using your firearm.

    Even pointing a weapon at some one is classified as endangerment. So, while we have a right to keep and bear arms, big brother is trying to stifle how we use them.

    The message for all of us here is: Don’t point and shoot until you see the whites of their eyes, then blow their freaking head off! At least then we will likely be within our rights; unless an intruder is already inside the house.

  23. Durango Kidd says:

    With the change in power that is coming, it will be time to strengthen our gun rights and make it more difficult for cops to arrest the good guys.

  24. oneshotkill says:

    @ Bill

    Mr. Grier went in his house and told his wife to call the police. The gang of scum were outside in the front yard possibly only on the side walk and a little in his grass. It did not seem they were forcing their way into his house. He went out the front to them with his gun. Did he not want gang thugs in front of his house? I think not who does but that’s is the world we live in.  I don’t care what state you are in he did not need to go back outside with his gun and fire shots in the ground that could have ricocheted off a rock or something and killed the kid in the house across the road. He was reckless and irresponsible. As for you needing your scope for some parts of your yard, trespassing is not grounds to murder but if you feel alright with that best of luck to you.

  25. Tom says:

    Time to buy No Trespassing signs.  Save the hp’s for another day also.  The DA love them.

  26. Bill says:

    @ oneshotkill -  I was trying to make a point.  Maybe read what I said again…… 

  27. oneshotkill says:

    @ Bill

    I wasn’t meaning anything bad, I’m  just a firm supporter of the 2nd amendment right and do not like when people give the anti gunners more ammo against us. All gun owners need to be responsible with firearms, while trying to make differences to the laws by voting and join the NRA. If more people make bad decisions like this guy the anti gun groups will have more to attack gun rights with. Michigan is going to have  better educated young people when the NRA Eddie Eagle program gets to the schools. More adults could use NRA instructions also. I’m on the same side just trying to take care of my family and prep for what may come. I do wish you well and must say Michigan is a nice state for sportsman and I think this time of year is comfortable as far as weather goes. Best of luck to you and yours if and when the SHTF.

  28. sanityjones says:

    Another point to ponder here is the fact that the shit DID hit the fan for this person and he took what he considered to be lawful and expedient measures to protect himself and his family. There is no guarantee that SHTF will happen corporately…………..you too may be on your own, alone, making snap decisions on the world stage so that armchair quarterbacks can pick your actions apart for weeks on end from the comfort and security of their kitchen tables. Whether the proper decisions were made on his part or not is irrelevant when the bigger reality sets in, which is this. Large groups of people may assemble at will on your personal property, or just shy of, and intimidate you, threaten you, and terrorize you with impunity until the cops show up, if they do……..and it’s not too late……….and you are still unraped, unbeaten, conscious, and alive………………………..Don’t get your minds too made up on what/when/where/how/why SHTF happens to you or someone you love…………these are strange times.

  29. Anonymous says:

    Comments…..KEEP YOUR GUNS HANDY NEVER NEVER LET THEM GO CRAP LIKE THIS SHOULD SWEPT UNDER THE RUG HE IS IN HIS RIGHTS TO PROTECT HIS PROPERTY/PROPERTIES NOT MATTER WHAT  DON’T WAIT UNTIL YOUR THROAT IS CUT TO SHOOT.

  30. Unfortunately NY State is one of the strictest in the country for gun laws.  Basically, if they leave your property alive, you are going to jail for a while until it can be sorted out.  Period.  Sad but true.  NJ where I live is almost the same.  The real question, was he justified?  Well, when you have the professionals on TV saying, They were MS 13 and most likely carrying their won weapons, it’s a grey area because ironically, they did not brandish the weapons they were most likely carrying which would have justified Grier discharging his weapon (loosely translated NY state law).

    Now, tell me I am not defending my family, and I may file a nice lawsuit against the State of NY if that were me.

    Oh, and what do you think might have happened if Grier did not have or discharge a weapon.  I can tell you from experience living down in the NYC area, there would have been a tiny blurb on the channel 7 news tonight, and nothing else, because it would have just been dismissed as another guy being beaten to almost death’s door laying in a hospital by a gang.

    Personally, he defended himself and his family beyond a shadow of a doubt.  Firing into the ground was a conscious decision to protect others around him while making a point he was serious.  Professional witnesses will be called in to testify to the gang activity and the eminent threat, I am sure.

  31. noodle says:

    Comments…..I will not past judgement on a person who felt threatened by intruders,it’s apparent there seemed to be no talking to this group and coming to a peaceful solution. If  danger is imminent and life threatening, Mr.Grier made the (equalized)favorable outcome.

  32. KSB29 says:

    “but I don’t believe that the men “continued to threaten him” when he appeared with an AK”

    I believe it because I’ve seen it. I had a meth head scream about how he was going to “kick my ass” while he (unarmed) was looking down the barrel of my loaded pistol. And that was after a warning shot to break up a fight he started with some workers I was doing a house renovation with.

    (That is one instance where a warning shot worked very well. Everyone froze long enough for the two parties to seperate, giving me a nice clear target to the aggressor.)

    The only thing that kept him from getting shot were two slightly more sober friends of his that had taken a hold of each of his arms to keep him from charging me. They finally dragged him away despite his constant protests they he could win the fight.

    I never bothered with 911. After all, I was just following police orders. Earlier when I reported multiple threats on my life and breakins to my home, an officer told me in a very angry tone to “Quit wasting their time.”

    The guys I worked with thanked me. The police didn’t have to waste time protecting innocent lives. I didn’t have to fill out stacks of police reports. Everyone was happy.

  33. Bill says:

    @oneshotkill and all – This guy was put in a situation that obviously was very serious.  We all may act the same way if we were there but we just don’t know for sure.  I’m sure the blood was pumping and he was thinking fast on his feet.  Whether he did the right thing might not be our call since we weren’t there.  As noodle says above it’s hard for us to pass judgement on someone that was truly threatened.  Who know, maybe we all would have done the same.  It’s easy to sit here, drinking coffee in the warmth of my home and say for certain what I would do.  I think he was right in his choice,  given the information we have.   Your right oneshotkill, this does give the anti gunner fools more fuel.  I get pissed every time this happens.  They don’t pay any attention to the weapons that were used in true self defense, only the crap that feeds the fire of hate towards guns.   MSM doesn’t help matters with the crap that they push.  There’s a very liberal portion of people in our area that love obama and think if your not gay and you love guns your a redneck, right winged, racist fool.  If these idiots were given their way only the all protecting police would have guns.  If anything like this happened to them they would piss their pants and have a group hug while waiting for the cops to arrive.  These are going to be the first group around here to go down.  And I don’t mean on each other…………..

  34. oneshotkill says:

    I just figure this guy came home and they were in front of his house and he started a war on them. If they were threatening him before he came out with his gun he must have some sort of ties to gang activity, if not he must have been trying to be bad ass with his AK. Warning shots are never necessary if you have your gun in hand that alone should keep them in check. If not and they are drawing weapons approaching you with threatening behavior then you need to shoot them not the ground. I think when this man grabbed his gun and his wife called the police he should have sat tight in his house and if they came in showed them what the AK was made for.

  35. @oneshotkill – You can’t assume he was involved in gang activity where he lives.  If you are familiar with the area or the tri-state area of NY, NJ, CT, you will know that gangs are everywhere.  Descent neighborhoods that are in the suburbs of major cities are no longer as safe, as these gangs seek to create new territories.  They spread like a disease.  I live 7 miles from NYC outside the Lincoln Tunnel, and even my neighborhood over the past 18 months is beginning to become get suspect.  I may start looking for a new neighborhood shortly myself.

    MS-13 is also known to have no real structure to them with no clear leadership, except for a self proclaimed leader in the group with some charisma.  They are ruthless.  You will die.  If not now, when they want you to, if they have a grudge against you.  Period. They could give a $%!# who you are, and you can be a target for no good reason.

    In addition, the “shot’s fired system” in his town can alert police within 35 feet of the shots being fired seconds after the casings hit the ground.  I have to believe he considered that when firing into the ground.  I have to believe he knew of the “shots fired system” if he owned a legal AK-47.

    There were also two other shootings in the town next door to Grier’s that night…

    Ah the suburbs, the place to escape the city.  Not any more.

  36. Joseph says:

    It’s amazing how some people can find some justification to chose the rights of criminals over the right to defend one’s self, wife, & kids.
    MS13 is a gang of illegal aliens and their spawn. They are by definition criminals by association at the least!
    It shows how sick many Americans are and how sucessfully brainwashed they are. No wonder our country and our rights are going down the toilet. I guess when you have anillegal alien president anything goes…

  37. Anonymous says:

    Here in Colorado it’s the  ‘Make my Day” law.  Anyone caught INSIDE of your home is fair game.  So, unfortunately, you can’t pick them off on the way in.  MY Mossberg 500, however, was purchased for just this scenario.  With the drug dealers driving back behind my house 24/7,  I’m almost giddy with the idea of wasting one of the stupid SOB’s if they try a home invasion!

  38. Lance says:

    This guy was very lucky they did not get sporty with him and pull out a dozen guns.  Pop.. pop.. pop is not going to get their attention. With 20 felons at bay in a solo defense position you want full auto to suppress them.    Of course the common sheeple are not able to readily afford the high price of admission into the full auto club.   But events like this make one look at the cost and hassle and say hummmmm.

  39. Mardochee Augustin says:

    I live in Brooklyn,NY and I can say the gun laws are strict as hell. It pisses me off that these govt assholes make stupid laws that make no sense. Now imagine he did not own a firearm. His family would have been massacred and there would be “community outrage.” The police always come after the crime is committed,they are no help at all. When will the politicians wake up and knoiw that gangs do not walk into gun stores to buy guns!!! They buy them from weapons dealers. They court should drop the case and give his weapon back. When the shtf it will be people who are not armed that will suffer.

  40. Tom says:

    Oneshotkill:  You are a sensible gun owner.

  41. Bill says:

    @jack – I don’t feel oneshotkill is assuming the guy is a gang banger  but it would make since that he may have some association with them.  He must have done something to piss them off.  We’re all just guessing anyway.  The more comments I read the more I’m thinking he shouldn’t have fired warning shots.  Shoot to kill – no warnings!  The whole thing is a f*cking mess.  No matter what he did we would all be second guessing what went through his head.  Maybe he’s just a bonehead and doesn’t have a clue……..  How bout that?

  42. Boyd says:

    I don’t know NY’s gun laws, but shooting warning shots could be considered more than reckless endangerment, they could push it much farther and much more serious.  honestly he would have been better off .. (legally) to just kill them.

  43. MS-13 is not the same as a group of thugs.  They have a reputation of being deadly. So if that is who they were, then he did feel he and his family were in real danger.   Good luck to Mr Grier and his family.

  44. sanityjones says:

    Here’s a bit more info via the SurvivalBlog.com website.

    Here is a television news story,
    George Grier, is a church deacon

  45. Fed Up In TX says:

    I hope I never have to find out exactly how I would react.  However, I am pretty damn sure I would not let the thugs make it to the front door.  The further I can keep them from my family the better.  There is such a thing as being overrun.

    Also, I think it best that we remember that these kind of thugs think we are all soft and won’t pull the trigger.  They are also very used to someone flashing a gun and probably aren’t too intimidated by that.

    Finally, if he fired shots on HIS PROPERTY into land HE OWNS, why the hell is that any of the government’s business?  Because we have allowed them to pass laws that give us less and less rights to defend ourselves. 

    I too am a big supporter of the 2nd amendment and don’t want people doing dumb stuff to risk those rights.  That said, I certainly think we go too far to pacify the gun haters.   I for one will send Mr. Grier a donation for legal defense at an address found on Survival Blog.  Its time we make the thugs worry and not the other way around!

  46. sketch, completely true.

  47. Shooter says:

     i personally believe that Grier did right

  48. greaseman says:

    Comments….. In the end, his guilt or innocence will be determined by how much legal help he can afford.  if he has a court appointed attorney, he’s screwed.  if he can take the case all the way up the legal ladder, he will prevail.
        Unfortunately, with the present sentiment of  the people who are running our judicial systems, we should just let the criminal do whatever they want, and call the police.  Some states  do make it easier to defend yourself, but in any state in the union, it still depends on how much money you have.  In our legal system, right or wrong,  justice is purchased on a sliding scale–that’s just the way it is.    has anyone ever seen it any different?  let me know, cause I’ve never seen it any different anywhere.
          Money buys justice.