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Torture Produces Lies for More War: Bush Admin Aimed to “Elicit FALSE Confessions for Propaganda Purposes”

Washington's Blog
December 13th, 2014
Washington's Blog
Comments (228) Read by 4,834 people

uncle-sam-waterboarding-labuff2
Illustration by Carlos Latuff, Wikimedia Commons. “It’s not torture when U.S. forces are doing it…”

This article was originally published by Washington’s Blog.

Editor’s Note: As this article makes quite clear, while the debate over the use of torture by the CIA and other entities against enemies and terrorists is important, the framing of the report sidesteps the pertinent question of why torture was being used during the Bush Administration’s prosecution of the War on Terror.

And the answer was pointed out by the 2009 Armed Service Committee report – that torture has been used historically to produce false confession. FALSE confessions. Why? To produce bogus and sensational stories to support pro-war, pro-torture, pro-clandestine propaganda.

Cheney, Rumsfeld and others in the Bush Administration were trying to justify and goad on the war in Iraq by linking Saddam Hussein to Osama bin Laden and 9/11. The rhetoric is in countless media clips from the time, but the factual case was not there. Torture victims were pressed to provide the links the administration needed to open the door to endless war, and to stir fear in the minds of the American population.

Isn’t this relevant to the renewed debate over the merits of waterboarding and other forms of enhanced interrogation? Not only are the ethics already compromised, but they were ultimately carried out to support a larger lie for war. These people should not have longer leashes; rather the People should be told the truth about why we went to war and what has been driving the last few decades of history.

The Media Is Focusing On the WRONG Senate Torture Report

The Big Story Torture Everyone Is Missing

While the torture report released by the Senate Intelligence Committee is very important, it doesn’t address the big scoop regarding torture.

Instead, it is the Senate Armed Services Committee’s report that dropped the big bombshell regarding the U.S.  torture program.

Senator Levin, commenting on a Armed Services Committee’s report on torture in 2009, explained:

The techniques are based on tactics used by Chinese Communists against American soldiers during the Korean War for the purpose of eliciting FALSE confessions for propaganda purposes. Techniques used in SERE training include stripping trainees of their clothing, placing them in stress positions, putting hoods over their heads, subjecting them to face and body slaps, depriving them of sleep, throwing them up against a wall, confining them in a small box, treating them like animals, subjecting them to loud music and flashing lights, and exposing them to extreme temperatures [and] waterboarding.

McClatchy filled in important details:

Former senior U.S. intelligence official familiar with the interrogation issue said that Cheney and former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld demanded that the interrogators find evidence of al Qaida-Iraq collaboration

For most of 2002 and into 2003, Cheney and Rumsfeld, especially, were also demanding proof of the links between al Qaida and Iraq that (former Iraqi exile leader Ahmed) Chalabi and others had told them were there.”

It was during this period that CIA interrogators waterboarded two alleged top al Qaida detainees repeatedly — Abu Zubaydah at least 83 times in August 2002 and Khalid Sheik Muhammed 183 times in March 2003 — according to a newly released Justice Department document…

When people kept coming up empty, they were told by Cheney’s and Rumsfeld’s people to push harder,” he continued.”  Cheney’s and Rumsfeld’s people were told repeatedly, by CIA . . . and by others, that there wasn’t any reliable intelligence that pointed to operational ties between bin Laden and Saddam . . .

A former U.S. Army psychiatrist, Maj. Charles Burney, told Army investigators in 2006 that interrogators at the Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, detention facility were under “pressure” to produce evidence of ties between al Qaida and Iraq.

“While we were there a large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between al Qaida and Iraq and we were not successful in establishing a link between al Qaida and Iraq,” Burney told staff of the Army Inspector General. “The more frustrated people got in not being able to establish that link . . . there was more and more pressure to resort to measures that might produce more immediate results.”

“I think it’s obvious that the administration was scrambling then to try to find a connection, a link (between al Qaida and Iraq),” [Senator] Levin said in a conference call with reporters. “They made out links where they didn’t exist.”

Levin recalled Cheney’s assertions that a senior Iraqi intelligence officer had met Mohammad Atta, the leader of the 9/11 hijackers, in the Czech Republic capital of Prague just months before the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

The FBI and CIA found that no such meeting occurred.

The Washington Post reported the same year:

Despite what you’ve seen on TV, torture is really only good at one thing: eliciting false confessions. Indeed, Bush-era torture techniques, we now know, were cold-bloodedly modeled after methods used by Chinese Communists to extract confessions from captured U.S. servicemen that they could then use for propaganda during the Korean War.

So as shocking as the latest revelation in a new Senate Armed Services Committee report may be, it actually makes sense — in a nauseating way. The White House started pushing the use of torture not when faced with a “ticking time bomb” scenario from terrorists, but when officials in 2002 were desperately casting about for ways to tie Iraq to the 9/11 attacks — in order to strengthen their public case for invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 at all.

***

Gordon Trowbridge writes for the Detroit News: “Senior Bush administration officials pushed for the use of abusive interrogations of terrorism detainees in part to seek evidence to justify the invasion of Iraq, according to newly declassified information discovered in a congressional probe.

Colin Powell’s former chief of staff (Colonel Larry Wilkerson) wrote in 2009 that the Bush administration’s “principal priority for intelligence was not aimed at pre-empting another terrorist attack on the U.S. but discovering a smoking gun linking Iraq and al-Qaeda.”

Indeed, one of the two senior instructors from the Air Force team which taught U.S. servicemen how to resist torture by foreign governments when used to extract false confessions has blown the whistle on the true purpose behind the U.S. torture program.

As Truthout reported:

[Torture architect] Jessen’s notes were provided to Truthout by retired Air Force Capt. Michael Kearns, a “master” SERE instructor and decorated veteran who has previously held high-ranking positions within the Air Force Headquarters Staff and Department of Defense (DoD).

***

The Jessen notes clearly state the totality of what was being reverse-engineered – not just ‘enhanced interrogation techniques,’ but an entire program of exploitation of prisoners using torture as a central pillar,” he said. “What I think is important to note, as an ex-SERE Resistance to Interrogation instructor, is the focus of Jessen’s instruction. It is EXPLOITATION, not specifically interrogation. And this is not a picayune issue, because if one were to ‘reverse-engineer’ a course on resistance to exploitation then what one would get is a plan to exploit prisoners, not interrogate them. The CIA/DoD torture program appears to have the same goals as the terrorist organizations or enemy governments for which SV-91 and other SERE courses were created to defend against: the full exploitation of the prisoner in his intelligence, propaganda, or other needs held by the detaining power, such as the recruitment of informers and double agents. Those aspects of the US detainee program have not generally been discussed as part of the torture story in the American press.”

In a subsequent report, Truthout notes:

Air Force Col. Steven Kleinman, a career military intelligence officer recognized as one of the DOD’s most effective interrogators as well a former SERE instructor and director of intelligence for JPRA’s teaching academy, said ….  “This is the guidebook to getting false confessions, a system drawn specifically from the communist interrogation model that was used to generate propaganda rather than intelligence”  …. “If your goal is to obtain useful and reliable information this is not the source book you should be using.”

Interrogators also forced detainees to take drugs … which further impaired their ability to tell the truth.

And one of the two main architects of the torture program admitted this week on camera:

You can get people to say anything to stop harsh interrogations if you apply them in a way that does that.

And false confessions were, in fact, extracted.

For example:

And the 9/11 Commission Report was largely based on a third-hand account of what tortured detainees said, with two of the three parties in the communication being government employees. And the government went to great lengths to obstruct justice and hide unflattering facts from the Commission.

According to NBC News:

  • Much of the 9/11 Commission Report was based upon the testimony of people who were tortured
  • At least four of the people whose interrogation figured in the 9/11 Commission Report have claimed that they told interrogators information as a way to stop being “tortured.”
  • The 9/11 Commission itself doubted the accuracy of the torture confessions, and yet kept their doubts to themselves

Details here.

Today, Raymond McGovern – a 27-year CIA veteran, who chaired National Intelligence Estimates and personally delivered intelligence briefings to Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush, their Vice Presidents, Secretaries of State, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and many other senior government officials – provides details about one torture victim (Al-Libi) at former Newsweek and AP reporter Robert Parry’s website:

But if it’s bad intelligence you’re after, torture works like a charm. If, for example, you wish to “prove,” post 9/11, that “evil dictator” Saddam Hussein was in league with al-Qaeda and might arm the terrorists with WMD, bring on the torturers.

It is a highly cynical and extremely sad story, but many Bush administration policymakers wanted to invade Iraq before 9/11 and thus were determined to connect Saddam Hussein to those attacks. The PR push began in September 2002 – or as Bush’s chief of staff Andrew Card put it, “From a marketing point of view, you don’t introduce new products in August.”

By March 2003 – after months of relentless “marketing” – almost 70 percent of Americans had been persuaded that Saddam Hussein was involved in some way with the attacks of 9/11.

The case of Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi, a low-level al-Qaeda operative, is illustrative of how this process worked. Born in Libya in 1963, al-Libi ran an al-Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan from 1995 to 2000. He was detained in Pakistan on Nov. 11, 2001, and then sent to a U.S. detention facility in Kandahar, Afghanistan. He was deemed a prize catch, since it was thought he would know of any Iraqi training of al-Qaeda.

The CIA successfully fought off the FBI for first rights to interrogate al-Libi. FBI’s Dan Coleman, who “lost” al-Libi to the CIA (at whose orders, I wonder?), said, “Administration officials were always pushing us to come up with links” between Iraq and al-Qaeda.

CIA interrogators elicited some “cooperation” from al-Libi through a combination of rough treatment and threats that he would be turned over to Egyptian intelligence with even greater experience in the torture business.

By June 2002, al-Libi had told the CIA that Iraq had “provided” unspecified chemical and biological weapons training for two al-Qaeda operatives, an allegation that soon found its way into other U.S. intelligence reports. Al-Libi’s treatment improved as he expanded on his tales about collaboration between al-Qaeda and Iraq, adding that three al-Qaeda operatives had gone to Iraq “to learn about nuclear weapons.”

Al-Libi’s claim was well received at the White House even though the Defense Intelligence Agency was suspicious.

“He lacks specific details” about the supposed training, the DIA observed. “It is possible he does not know any further details; it is more likely this individual is intentionally misleading the debriefers. Ibn al-Shaykh has been undergoing debriefs for several weeks and may be describing scenarios to the debriefers that he knows will retain their interest.”

Meanwhile, at the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba, Maj. Paul Burney, a psychiatrist sent there in summer 2002, told the Senate, “A large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between al-Qaeda and Iraq and we were not successful. The more frustrated people got in not being able to establish that link … there was more and more pressure to resort to measures that might produce more immediate results.”

***

President Bush relied on al-Libi’s false Iraq allegation for a major speech in Cincinnati on Oct. 7, 2002, just a few days before Congress voted on the Iraq War resolution. Bush declared, “We’ve learned that Iraq has trained al-Qaeda members in bomb making and poisons and deadly gases.”

And Colin Powell relied on it for his famous speech to the United Nations on Feb. 5, 2003, declaring: “I can trace the story of a senior terrorist operative telling how Iraq provided training in these [chemical and biological] weapons to al-Qaeda. Fortunately, this operative is now detained, and he has told his story.”

Al-Libi’s “evidence” helped Powell as he sought support for what he ended up calling a “sinister nexus” between Iraq and al-Qaeda, in the general effort to justify invading Iraq.

For a while, al-Libi was practically the poster boy for the success of the Cheney/Bush torture regime; that is, until he publicly recanted and explained that he only told his interrogators what he thought would stop the torture.

You see, despite his cooperation, al-Libi was still shipped to Egypt where he underwent more abuse, according to a declassified CIA cable from early 2004 when al-Libi recanted his earlier statements. The cable reported that al-Libi said Egyptian interrogators wanted information about al-Qaeda’s connections with Iraq, a subject “about which [al-Libi] said he knew nothing and had difficulty even coming up with a story.”

According to the CIA cable, al-Libi said his interrogators did not like his responses and “placed him in a small box” for about 17 hours. After he was let out of the box, al-Libi was given a last chance to “tell the truth.” When his answers still did not satisfy, al-Libi says he “was knocked over with an arm thrust across his chest and fell on his back” and then was “punched for 15 minutes.”

After Al-Libi recanted, the CIA recalled all intelligence reports based on his statements, a fact recorded in a footnote to the report issued by the 9/11 Commission. By then, however, the Bush administration had gotten its way regarding the invasion of Iraq and the disastrous U.S. occupation was well underway.

***

Intensive investigations into these allegations – after the U.S. military had conquered Iraq – failed to turn up any credible evidence to corroborate these allegations. What we do know is that Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden were bitter enemies, with al-Qaeda considering the secular Hussein an apostate to Islam.

Al-Libi, who ended up in prison in Libya, reportedly committed suicide shortly after he was discovered there by a human rights organization. Thus, the world never got to hear his own account of the torture that he experienced and the story that he presented and then recanted.

Hafed al-Ghwell, a Libyan-American and a prominent critic of Muammar Gaddafi’s regime at the time of al-Libi’s death, explained to Newsweek, “This idea of committing suicide in your prison cell is an old story in Libya.”

Paul Krugman eloquently summarized the truth about the torture used:

Let’s say this slowly: the Bush administration wanted to use 9/11 as a pretext to invade Iraq, even though Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. So it tortured people to make them confess to the nonexistent link.

There’s a word for this: it’s evil.

Torture Program Was Part of a Con Job

As discussed above, in order to “justify” the Iraq war, top Bush administration officials pushed and insisted that interrogators use special torture methods aimed at extracting false confessions to attempt to create a false linkage between between Al Qaida and Iraq. And see this and this.

But this effort started earlier …

5 hours after the 9/11 attacks, Donald Rumsfeld said “my interest is to hit Saddam”.

He also said “Go massive . . . Sweep it all up. Things related and not.”

And at 2:40 p.m. on September 11th, in a memorandum of discussions between top administration officials, several lines below the statement “judge whether good enough [to] hit S.H. [that is, Saddam Hussein] at same time”, is the statement “Hard to get a good case.” In other words, top officials knew that there wasn’t a good case that Hussein was behind 9/11, but they wanted to use the 9/11 attacks as an excuse to justify war with Iraq anyway.

Moreover, “Ten days after the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, President Bush was told in a highly classified briefing that the U.S. intelligence community had no evidence linking the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein to the [9/11] attacks and that there was scant credible evidence that Iraq had any significant collaborative ties with Al Qaeda”.

And a Defense Intelligence Terrorism Summary issued in February 2002 by the United States Defense Intelligence Agency cast significant doubt on the possibility of a Saddam Hussein-al-Qaeda conspiracy.

And yet Bush, Cheney and other top administration officials claimed repeatedly for years that Saddam was behind 9/11. See this analysis. Indeed, Bush administration officials apparently swore in a lawsuit that Saddam was behind 9/11.

Moreover, President Bush’s March 18, 2003 letter to Congress authorizing the use of force against Iraq, includes the following paragraph:

(2) acting pursuant to the Constitution and Public Law 107-243 is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.

Therefore, the Bush administration expressly justified the Iraq war to Congress by representing that Iraq planned, authorized, committed, or aided the 9/11 attacks.

Indeed, Pulitzer prize-winning journalist Ron Suskind reports that the White House ordered the CIA to forge and backdate a document falsely linking Iraq with Muslim terrorists and 9/11 … and that the CIA complied with those instructions and in fact created the forgery, which was then used to justify war against Iraq. And see this.

Suskind also revealed that “Bush administration had information from a top Iraqi intelligence official ‘that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq – intelligence they received in plenty of time to stop an invasion.’ ”

Cheney made the false linkage between Iraq and 9/11 on many occasions.

For example, according to Raw Story, Cheney was still alleging a connection between Iraq and the alleged lead 9/11 hijacker in September 2003 – a year after it had been widely debunked. When NBC’s Tim Russert asked him about a poll showing that 69% of Americans believed Saddam Hussein had been involved in 9/11, Cheney replied:

It’s not surprising that people make that connection.

And even after the 9/11 Commission debunked any connection, Cheney said that the evidence is “overwhelming” that al Qaeda had a relationship with Saddam Hussein’s regime , that Cheney “probably” had information unavailable to the Commission, and that the media was not ‘doing their homework’ in reporting such ties.

Again, the Bush administration expressly justified the Iraq war by representing that Iraq planned, authorized, committed, or aided the 9/11 attacks. See this, this, this.

Even then-CIA director George Tenet said that the White House wanted to invade Iraq long before 9/11, and inserted “crap” in its justifications for invading Iraq.

Former Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill – who sat on the National Security Council – also says that Bush planned the Iraq war before 9/11.

Top British officials say that the U.S. discussed Iraq regime change even before Bush took office.

And in 2000, Cheney said a Bush administration might “have to take military action to forcibly remove Saddam from power.” And see this.

The administration’s false claims about Saddam and 9/11 helped convince a large portion of the American public to support the invasion of Iraq. While the focus now may be on false WMD claims, it is important to remember that, at the time, the alleged link between Iraq and 9/11 was at least as important in many people’s mind as a reason to invade Iraq.

So the torture program was really all about “justifying” the ultimate war crime:  launching an unnecessary war of aggression based upon false pretenses.

Postscript:   It is beyond any real dispute that torture does not work to produce any useful, truthful intelligence.  Today, the following question made it to the front page of Reddit:

Why would the CIA torture if torture “doesn’t work”? Wouldn’t they want the most effective tool to gather intelligence?

The Senate Armed Services Committee report gave the answer.

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Author: Washington's Blog
Views: Read by 4,834 people
Date: December 13th, 2014
Website: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/12/doesnt-mainstream-media-discuss-torture-issue.html

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228 Comments...

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  1. Good article. And we wonder why we are hated by so many abroad. And some wonder why some here at home hate our govt and dod..

    Murdering, thieving satanists.

    • David says:

      @BJ:

      You obviously are a left-wing liberal Democrat who has been schooled (if you went to college) in an arena that teaches WHAT to think, not HOW to think.

      Therefore, your SLANTED view is ALWAYS to be anti-America. I suppose you are not living in China, Russia, North Korea, or some other grandiose place where freedom reigns supreme, no your here in the US where you can spew your inflammatory bullshit because you can.

      Is sum, don’t be an asshole, do some fact checking, and unlike the Dingy Harry, and Nancy Pelosi world, read the fucking data, analyaze it, and FACT CHECK IT.

      Wise up!

      • So I take it you didn’t like or agree with the article? Or does this type of thing give you a woody?

        I love the constitution, and believe the founders had it right, period.

          • OutWest says:

            The bullshit goes on forever.

            • Scout says:

              Good morning!

              What a beautiful day.

              I like you folks on this blog, but it tends to get into sniping.

              Check out this blog and see the comments and also especially, “What did you prep this week?” Mac, you should borrow this idea, they wont mind. http://www.thesurvivalistblog.net/

              Regarding torture, it happens here to Americans and has for long before 9/11. Believe me, I KNOW.

              Scout out.

              • What a load of crap…….
                1. I’d love to see the superbowl cancelled
                2. It won’t ever happen
                3. What a bunch of hogwash….terrorism insurance……follow the money. It’s all about money and control

                ht tp://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-12-09/the-terrorism-risk-insurance-act-is-vital-to-the-super-bowl

        • the renegade braveheart says:

          Good evening, BJ. Once again I’ll shock you with my beliefs. I clearly remember the day of the attacks on WTC and the Pentagon. I smelled false-flag almost from the very moment the attacks took place. That day my suspicions about GWB were confirmed. Not one damn thing he ever did, whether domestic or foreign, had any legitimate basis to it whatsoever. Torture being used by evil regimes is nothing new; goes all the way back to the Roman Empire. It has always been our own government that gets us in trouble with the nations of the world and far too many of our people have accepted federal indoctrination about everything as gospel without questioning any of it. People like you and me are the ones who get demonized and marginalized because we have what is known as “critical thinking skills”. We know how to think for ourselves. we know better than to accept anything anyone says about any particular subject as gospel. I personally research various subjects and issues going to as many different sources as possible to find the best information I can. There are times when I DO question authority despite what some other people here think. I NEVER accept anyone’s propaganda about any particular subject. just like you, I have always caught flak for not falling into ‘group think’ aka being brainwashed like the sheeple. NOBODY tells me what to think or what to say about anyone or anything. I’ve always been independent-minded and will never apologize to anyone for that. I can tell you are also and for that I compliment you. I hope I find more things where we have some common ground. Take care.

          • I was working in California during the american hit on america…..9/11. I and my crew were doing a retro fit on the housewares departments in the Mervyn’s stores all up and down the left coast. It was a night job while the store was closed. We were staying in a hotel in Moreno Valley and since I was the Superintendant running the job, I had a room to myself and had a kitchenette. I invited the guys to my room to cook them breakfast after work that morning. We had on Faux news (jillian Barberie the weather chick was smokin hot 🙂 )

            I knew right away it wasn’t an accident, but unfortunately at the time, I was still asleep and a sheeple, I was a so called conservative republican….LoL

            I called the office in Dallas and let them know about it and inquired if any of our guys were on one of those planes. And inquired about the girls that worked in our office in the empire state building.

            And then I called home to West Palm Beach, once I heard that Atta was staying down in Delray or Boynton (can’t remember?) and had my daughter pulled from school.

            Yeah I remember that day well, just wished I would of been awake at the time…..I didn’t fully become aware and awake until 2010/2011 time frame.

            I remember pissing the office in Dallas off when I refused to fly home to Florida…..I turned in the mini van and rented a ford ranger and drove all the way home. I quit that job 6 months later due to the bullshit security measures to “fight terror” and have never once walked into a airport or flown since.

          • Sgt. Dale says:

            RBH
            Be very careful with BJ. He will befriend you and then stab you in the back. From what I have seen from him, and it is a shame because he is very smart person is HATE. Just look at his remarks in ID3289889 below. There were several very good folks here and now they are gone. Because of all the B.S. that several people have spewed and thank God that most of them are gone. Remember we have had a lot of them and we are still here.
            Sgt.

            • I didn’t befriend you….I spoke with you on the phone one time after another poster here telling me in private that they thought it wouldn’t hurt to talk to you and maybe meet with you. But I got that bad feeling in my gutt and that little voice spoke to me. That voice I have learned to listen to over the years from hindsight always being 20/20.

              So save your fraudulent sanctimonious act…..you are a fraud.

              “It is undisputed that the boys were forced to: (1) remove their shirts, so Officer Long could shake their shirts and look into the boys’ armpits; and (2) drop their pants, so Officer Long could perform a visual inspection of their underwear,” Conlon wrote in her ruling. “Additionally, plaintiffs offer evidence to show Officer Long ran his fingers around the waistband of some of the boys.”

              So lie some more about how you only had them loosen their belts.

              Yeah everything in court was a big ole lie and your just a poor victim. The judge is lying with everything she said too huh?

            • Anonymous says:

              dale, you just don’t know when to shut up,do you? All of your allegations about the judge, the parents, the kids, the entire story you’re painting is in direct opposition to what the judge stated. So now everybody involved is a liar BUT you? You’ve gone on a real tear destroying your credibility,but expect intelligent people to actually believe you? You are NEVER going to shake this monkey off your back anymore, it’s out for all to see now. You are just as guilty of spewing B.S. as anybody you’ve accused of doing the same. The only difference being they didn’t cry about it and claim they were only poor victims of circumstance,your ability to continue to proclaim you’re just a good guy caught up in an evil world with evil people is truly staggering to the minds of any honest person.

            • dave in Idaho says:

              @ Dale.. Maybe they are gone in part because they got sick of you defending murderous cop’s actions. You are not to be trusted. If its someone’s word against one of your fellow cops, you would side with the cops.

              • DMONIC says:

                Damn, WTF did I miss? Granted, I don’t read ALL posts, and hardly ever post, but if someone “left” and chose NOT to read the posts of an ignorant person, then they have no class. I don’t know what this case is about that hes apparently defending the cop in, but who cares? Everyone has an opinion. I have a problem with people that lie about facts, not that someone may have a diff opinion than mine. So what did I miss?

            • the renegade braveheart says:

              Howdy, Sarge. I will follow your advice. IF he tries to stab me in the back, he will pay a price for it. BTW, I went to the gun show today. NOBODY had a 91/30 or M44 for sale. However, I did pick up a few extra 30-round mags for my M1 Carbine, 2 extra mags for a Ruger SR22 I just bought, 1 full-size brick of Remington .22LR hollowpoints for $49.95, and a few extra gun cleaning supplies. All the ammo vendors told me that .22 hollowpoints are now harder to get than the target ammo. All in all, I still had a good time there. I always enjoy gun shows. I also find it sad that we lost some good people from this site and hope they come back one day. It will take something extreme to drive me away.

              • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

                RG – I love Gun Shows. That’s the Smell of REAL Freedom. The smell of gun solvent in the morning, like a fresh cup of gourmet coffee and griddle bacon. Biggie Size that Gun Porn for me, will ya!! Last show found some Belt Pistol Magazine Pouches. Nothing like having an extra 40 rounds convenient while carrying. That is going to be the key coming up. You may get pounced on by a groups of thugs. You may need to fire 30+ rounds to get out of the chaos. Or 30+ rounds to get you to your Battle rifle. I pitty the fool who tries to car jack me. KetTec PLR16 5.56 Pistol with 60 Round Surefire Magazine filled with Greentips.

            • Mountain Trekker says:

              Just do a search on SurvialTop50 there are a lot of good sites out there, actually around 150. Yes its hard to wean yourself away from this site, but sorry to say Mac, but I believe your better days are behind you. “Beware Who You Share Your Email Address With” Trekker Out.

            • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

              Another reason Sgt why you don’t give out your personal info out on the Internet for all the world to see. It will come back to bite you by back stabbers. OPSEC #1 Rule in Prepping. right eppe snail?

          • WWTI says:

            Everytime I see GWB I just want to slap that POS SILLY. Smirky AHole sent so many people to their graves needlessly. Lying Coward.

        • the renegade braveheart says:

          BJ, David has obviously had way too much of the federal koolaid and trapped in the left-right paradigm. That article was spot on. David is the one who is full of shit.

        • Big muff says:

          Everything in DC is fake just like the Clinton’s marriage.

      • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

        Chief Weapons Inspector said Saddam Did NOT have any WMD’s. Then Bushy pulled him out of Iraq and Choose to Invade Iraq on a false WMD’s premise anyway. That is Fraud any way you look at it.

        • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

          I agree with BJ on this one.
          Hey todays date:
          12-13-14. Any hidden meaning behind that one?

          • We are actually in the year 2018 or 2019……I am leaning that it was a five year screw up by the monk dionysius, putting us in december 2019….here comes 2020 in just a few weeks.

            • WWTI says:

              Even if you read the bible the Birth of Jesus is off by several years. Its all fraud and full of babble. That really throws off this phony calendar year BC or AD schedule dating. So what ever, I am 39 again, born again and a virgin. And I admit I really did inhale. Weeeeeeee…..

              • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

                Has anybody ever Questioned if our current Calendar is tied to the Birth of Christ Circa BC/AD, then why are we not celebrating News Years Day on Dec 25th, rather than January 1st.

                You all have been Duped again, and another false tradition that is built on a Hoax. I think everybody needs to reflect and start asking lots of questions of WHY?? Instead of going along to get along. Most American Holidays are based on Fraud and Genocide. Christopher Columbus is still chuckling. Stoopid Sheep!!

            • Nobama says:

              The calendar year is meaningless – 2,014-ish years since some drifter named Jesus was born, who cares.

              What would be more meaningful is the current Star Trek Stardate = -308047.27

              Beam me up Scotty.

              • passinwiththewind says:

                You boys, and i do mean boys will whimper like whipped puppies when you see the prophecies start coming to life soon.

                You have mocked and accused the Holiest man ever, and it will come back to haunt you boys “if”, you don’t repent and accept the truth.

                God will not be mocked and let it go by the way side.

                You think it is cute, funny and gives you boys credibility as someone above religion; however it just shows where your loyality is, and it ain’t Jesus.

                I would say i feel sorry for your sorry asses, but everyone gets what they have coming to them.

                • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

                  First PissinIntheWind says God speaks for him, and now PissingIntheWind speaks for God. Too Funny

                  PITW- God will not be mocked and let it go by the way side.

                  So what are you going to do about it PITW? Go Pound Sand?

                  Jeebus or no Prophets are coming back to save you. Its been over 2000 years since that claim, you waiting for your date to show up. Get the feeling you been stood up? bwhahahahaaaa People been praying for 2000 years for their “Jebus Back-Up” to help them. Sarge, How long would you wait in an active shooter situation waiting for back up to show up. Then realize know nobody is coming? 10-Mins, 20-Min? 2000 years? lol PITW=Oh he’s coming you just wait…. tic-toc tick-toc…. bwhaaaaaaaaaaaa

                • Mark says:

                  Amen Brother, Amen!!

              • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

                @Nobama. I think we should start signing our bank checks to pay our bills in Star Date time. We (Earth) is like what 13 Billion Yrs old now. The customary BC/AD dating process is somewhat like the earth is still flat mentalty. Now you know why the Christians Destroyed the Mayan Calendar Dating Tablets and culture. They were Jealous.

                Just out, a month ago – There has been some newly discovered Mayan scrolls or tablets that have been found in excavation down in Gautemala, and are being analyzed. Link: I hope they can bring back to light the more accurate dating and calendar process. Its all about the evolution of information. Those who can’t adapt to any New info and stuck and trapped in BC time warp with old traditions will be screwed. The world changes every day, you either make the moving train or get run over by it.

                Calendar

                21 Nov 2012
                0 Comments
                in Lake Atitlan Travel Guide Blog
                by handson+
                Mayan calendars promoting continuity and stability
                A new staircase of Maya hieroglyphic text containing the longest so far has been found in Guatemala. It is one of the most significant Mayan epigraphy discovered in recent decades.
                The discovery was made by archaeologists from the universities Del Valle de Guatemala, Tulane University and the University of Texas (USA). It is the result of ongoing and planned research which involved more than 20 college students.
                Guatemala, June 28, 2012. A team of archaeologists working at the site Crown , announced the discovery of a new reference to b’aktun 13 in a text of 1300 years old. This, which is one of the most significant findings of epigraphic decades, was released by archaeologists from the universities Del Valle de Guatemala, and Tulane and Texas (USA).

                The inscription on a stone block is part of an outdoor staircase in the Maya city of La Corona , located in the Biological Corridor of the Maya Biosphere Reserve (City of San Andrés, Petén Department), and again highlight that “in times of crisis, the Mayas used their calendars to promote positive messages, and not to predict apocalypse,” said Marcello Canuto, Director of Middle American Research Institute at Tulane University and co-director of The Corona Regional Archaeological Project .

                This is the second known reference end of b’aktun 13, a date calendar Maya Long Count will happen this December 21, which has been wrongly associated with the end of the world. This discovery “is the result of a planned and ongoing research in which more than 20 college students,” said Tomas Barrientos, director of the Center for Archaeological and Anthropological Valley University and co-director of the project.

                Archaeologists working on the new discovery of b’aktun 13

                “This text speaks of political history of the Crown and not prophecies “Canuto said. The date appears in relation to the visit of the most powerful Mayan ruler at the time, Yuknoom Yich’aak K’ahk ‘ of Calakmul, in the year 696 AD after being considered that would have died in battle. “This was a period of political chaos in the Maya region, where the king would have felt the need to refer to the great cycle of time ending in 2012,” said David Stuart of the University of Texas, who has spent 15 years studying the Crown . Therefore, instead of prophecies reference to 2012 serves to place this rule within a cosmological greater.

                Maya (or Mayan) Long Count calendar identifies a day by counting the number of days passed since a mythical creation date that corresponds to August 11, 3114 BCE in the Gregorian calendar.

                Link:http://www.lakeatitlantravelguide.com/lake-atitlan-guatemala-new-discovery-about-mayan-calendar/

                • Mark says:

                  You Idiot! You discard the Son of Gods word and embrace a bunch of primitive Indians? What an ignorant fool you are!

                • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

                  Yo9u embrace an imaginary Guy up in the sky, and I look at hard facts written in stone, Literately. Whos the Fool? Fool!! Your Hoax still can’t be proven, and seeing is believing. Show Proof Mark or STFU.

                • Nobama says:

                  Mark, the ignorant fool is the one that drank the church koolaid and fell for their scam, believing the bible (fictional fairy-tale written by men inspired to control and scam gullible sheeple like you) and the Geezuss hoax.

        • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

          Chief Weapons Inspector Scott Ritter Said Saddam posed no threat. Then the Bush Admin planted kiddy porn on his computer to discredit him. Valarie Plum US Spy said Saddam was NOT seeking unanium yellow cake from Liberia. She too was outed by Scooter Libby. BUSH’S 16 EVIL FRAUDULENT WORDS in his State of The Union speech in 2003. The March to war was not going to be stopped. The psychopaths were hell bent to profit heavy off of the Fraud of war like Haliburtons No Bid Contracts. Fleecing taxpayers. Many people should be sitting in prison right now.

          • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

            The True Job of the US President is to Keep America out of War, not in it. Bill Clinton was fairly successful with this and created the greatest economic expansion growth since the 60’s. Then Dickhead Bush destroyed everything in just a few short years. NEVER VOTE FOR ANY NEOCONS EVER AGAIN. THEY ARE NOTHING BUT GREEDY WAR PROFITEERS THAT LAY WASTE TO THE WORLD SPREADING HATE AND GENOCIDE.

        • durango kidd says:

          Al Queda should consider themselves lucky that I wasn’t in charge of their interrogation. Can you say “Van Geogh”? I would have made them eunuchs.

          Piss on these jihadist Rag heads who slaughtered innocent people on 911 !!! 🙂

          • Stolz Vorfahren says:

            DK…reading your comment really convince me that there is no hope for America. Don’t be a useful idiot. Read and try to understand who truly was behind 9/11. Hint: the same dark force who created ISIS and is destroying America and Americans gradually each and every day financially and soon by bullets.

            • durango kidd says:

              I know who was behind 911. It was the CIA and Mossad under direction of elements of a Rogue administration. IE Dick Cheney and the NWO Globalists.

              I am all for indicting Cheney too and shipping him to Iraq for “questioning”.

              GWB was out of the loop and knew nothing about it. Anyone can see that by the look on his face in the video of him receiving the news while he was reading a book to school children. He was composed but dumbfounded and didn’t know what to do, so he went back to reading to the kids.

              Those jihadists were also shadowed by the Mossad, and it was the Mossad who completed the job at the WTC that the Saudi’s botched, by detonating preset pre-wired explosives in Building 7; as ADMITTED in Court by Larry Silverstein who purchase the WTC a couple of months before 911 for $3 Billion with $100 Million down, and an insurance policy that would pay $4 Billion if the WTC were destroyed, under special terms and conditions, EXACTLY as it happened.

              I would gladly execute the judgement of a Court of competent jurisdiction myself upon ALL parties to this TREASON. And I would happily start with these jihadists while the others watched. 🙂

              • possee says:

                dk

                the jihadists reside in the halls of justice,central planner board rooms, and the finance/banking industry..

                the spook agencies merely carry out their orders worldwide.

                they have always used “radicals” as their pawns to create atrocities upon the public..then voila..we have created a new enemy..perpetual war..

                hell even ancient Rome used this technique..

                same with the native indians who stood in the way of the railroad..

                nothing new under the sun..

                nothing is by accident

                everything is by design

                ultimately..

                follow the money

                proves true all the time..

                possee

              • yourmotherwaswrong says:

                the durango kidd says:

                “I would gladly execute the judgement of a Court of competent jurisdiction myself upon ALL parties to this TREASON. And I would happily start with these jihadists while the others watched.”

                And just who are the “others” DK??? Do you turn your fascist “competent jurisdiction”/wrath on American Libertarians and “others”???

                Oh… I know the answer to that!

                It’s in the archive!!!

                How did you put it DK…? “A bullet in the head.”

                The durango kidd is a fascist! He would take your life for the “crime” of disobedience to HIS “State” if he could. He is no different than the scumbags in Washington DC. That’s why he supports the FedGov, their Central Banking model, and Empire. He’s one of them! Don’t be fooled by this jamoke!!

                The durango kidd claims to believe in “liberty.” If he truly believed in liberty, he would not issue threats of violence against those who disagree with him; he would “live and let live.” But, being a true believer (fascist), he doesn’t believe in liberty. He only hides behind the word.

                BTW: You spelled “judgement” wrong. What’s the matter DK, spell check got ya by the tongue?

              • WWTI says:

                Really???….Bush reading a book, out of town the day of 9-11??? Bush never read a book a day in his life. Even the book My pet goat was upside down in the photos. Then he goes live on TV talking about seeing the 2nd plane hit the tower like 5 minutes before the 2nd plane even hit the 2nd tower. Ever read the full details and timeline of this false fag called 9-11? And the invasion into Afghanistan and Cheneys secret Oil Meeting with all the players before 9-11 everybody was all set and on board to make a killing… Then claims Executive Privledge as not to divulge who was in that meeting or the topics of discussion. These MFrs should all be sitting in prison still today.

          • the renegade braveheart says:

            DK, while there were Muslims involved in 9/11 they had to get help to carry out the plan from somebody and that was the bush regime on behalf of the NWO globalists.

        • the renegade braveheart says:

          WWTI, that is true, and from the time we invaded in 2003 until we pulled out at the end of 2011, not one WMD was ever found anywhere in Iraq. there is an odd twist to that story, however. In the first Gulf War in 1991, our troops did find a huge depot of WMDs in southern Iraq after pushing Saddam’s boys out of Kuwait and those weapons were supposedly destroyed. Less than a month before we invaded in 2003, there were supposedly convoys of WMDs being escorted by Russian special forces out of Iraq into Syria. It’s possible Syria today still has those leftover Iraqi WMDs in their stockpile. GWB’s REAL reason for toppling Saddam was OIL. Iraq had the 2nd largest known oil reserves in the world and whoever controls those reserves can call a lot of shots. Also, the Bush family is still in the oil business.

        • Woogie says:

          WMD’s were found, haven’t you read the news? Bushy-Butt kept it a secret.
          Google search “New York Times Reports WMD Found in Iraq”

          • Read the NYT article. It explicitly says these were not the WMDs we went to war over. These were pre 1991 vintage. We knew that he had these because we helped him make them so Saddam could kill Iranians. Google Rumsfeld-Saddam picture. Don himself was yukking it up with Saddam himself promising him help in making WMDs.

            You should read things for yourself instead of only listening to Mark Levin or Rush.

        • Big muff says:

          I heard they found WMD in Iraq.

      • Archivist says:

        I didn’t see anything anti-America in BJ’s post. All I saw was anti-federal government. We’re already inflamed by everything the federal government has done, is doing, and is going to do to us.

        I would assume from the language in your post that you are a paid-up subscriber to Rush 24 and watch him every day. I decided years ago that he was wasting 3 hours of my day that I use more profitably elsewhere.

        • possee says:

          archivist

          agreed wholeheartedly.

          We have way too many pro repubs/empire lovers on this site..

          And to hell with the democrats as well..equally.

          Good God when the hell will folks wake up to the fraud perpetrated upon us all?

          Probably never..

          fools..

          Go listen to npr limbaugh hannity oreilly cnn msnbc and drown yourselves in the liberal/conservative left/right republican/democrat cesspool of shit…

          Most of us here,not all, are done with it all..

          possee

          • dave in Idaho says:

            @ Possee.. you are correct.. and this last election proved just that. Boner, reid, bitch mcconnel, doesnt make one bit of differance. The lastest shit they passed in congress and other states passing shit…wall street/banker bailouts, retirements, felony video taping of cops in Illinois, lead ban on ammo,police state, bill of rights complete violations, bambicare, amnesty. Its all directed at the working middleclass.

          • Thanks fellas and gals. Isn’t it maddening? It’s like banging your head on a wall trying to convince people to see what’s clearly right in front of them. I don’t remember all the repubs on this site 4 years ago? I also don’t remember hearing all the information I see now on here in regards to the jews? While I find a lot of that information interesting and probably true….I can’t do anything about it…but continue to seek truth and fight what I can at my level. And I don’t remember all the title slinging like we see now with the terms thrown out at anyone we disagree with like “communist/ism, marxist/ism, fascist/ism”

            I don’t understand it all and I don’t have the answers….sure wish I did. Just thinking out loud……

        • the renegade braveheart says:

          Archivist, I also agree. BJ is more like me. He and I both love this country but we’re opposed to evil, corrupt, out-of-control government. There are definitely some neocons here posing as patriots.

        • sixpack says:

          I personally agree with everything in this article. I’m not “anti-American” for recognizing LIES when I see them…and pretty much everything about 9-11 and the ensuing WMD crap was just that—crap. It’s no longer a conspiracy theory, it’s a conspiracy fact.

          Lies are lies, even when an American tells them.

        • My waking up took a while before all the sleepiness was out of my eyes. I thought I was aware and awake watching Orielly and Beck…….I look back now and LMAO. Orielly is one of my most hated and I think hell has a special spot for that arrogant lying spinmiester. And the little cry baby weasel beck is a judas goat. When he started saying that “violence is NEVER the answer” after Gifford was shot in AZ. I saw him for what he really is.

      • Anonymous says:

        Its a really sad time. The gov is successfully creating division all across this country. We now even see it here in our comment section. It’d be nice if we could all recognize our true enemy is not each other. But while we all infight across the country, the true enemy awaits in the shadows, laughing at us all falling right into their trap.

        • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

          If everybody stuck to thetruth there would hardly be any arguments. Stick to the facts.

          • Outlaw says:

            I wrote the above, forgot to log-in. What you say is true WWTI, the problem is that the truth is interpreted differently through every person’s eyes. Just take religion for an example. The Christians view of truth is worlds apart from the muslims view of truth. Thats just one small example.

            • oicu812 says:

              Comparing Christians to mooselimbs, is kinda like comparing a couple succulent, vine ripened, peaches, to a pair of a buzzard nuts. There is no real comparison and that “is” the truth.

              You either believe the Holy Bible and that the only way to the Heavenly Father,hence Heaven, is thru Jesus Christ or you believe the lie, that it is possible without Him.

              • Outlaw says:

                Glad you replied!
                Lets compare Christians to Christians then… Do they all agree on the truth?

                Lets not forget all those out there that do not believe the Holy Bible to be the truth.

                Do you see now, how hard it is just just throw out a statement that if everybody stuck to the truth, there would hardly be any arguments?

                We would have to all agree on the truth first, therein lies the problem. 😉

                FYI, I am a follower of God, but it is very likely my version of truth is different then yours.

              • WWTI says:

                Oicu8 FYI. All religion is a hoax. You are all duped. Religion was man’s evil plan to control population. And its unfolding quite nicley today, as people will kill eachother over who’s hoax is more believable. I sit back and eat popcorn watching fools go to war. At least it weeds out the gullible dumb from our society. LoL.

                • Outlaw says:

                  Would this be your opinion? If not, could you present the facts. So that we could end the argument, ya know?

                • oicu812 says:

                  Naw. Not duped, cause I haven’t bought into the “religious”, denominational crap.

                  I follow the truth of the Holy inspired Word of my Creator, as best as I can. I don’t really hate those that don’t see eye to eye, or those that don’t feel a need to believe in God or His word.

                  I have some “aquaintenances” that are basically “nonbelievers”, and see life as just a chance to see how many toys and stuff they can accumulate. They are not my friends and I don’t hang out with them but, I don’t hate them, or preach to them, because they don’t believe life continues after death of the physical body.

                  I tried talking to them about what is coming upon America, from a worldly point of view and they didn’t believe nor want to hear it so I shut up. If a person isn’t open to discussions that may help them, then it is a waste of time anyhow.

                  I come here for like-minded people, and may not like or agree with those that don’t have a spiritual need, but I don’t see a need to bash them. I see many bad cops, but I don’t see a need to bash Sgt. Dale. He isn’t the whipping post for all the bad cops, and you guys aren’t one for all the atheists.

                  Now acid itch/eisen-turd, he may be a different story, but he is a pretty good sport for all the negativity he brings on himself. I don’t know him well enough to say I hate him. Because he is a homo, I just hate his homo ways because I believe it is bad for family and America. It sure was bad for Sodom and Gomorrah.

              • Nobama says:

                I have a “Holy Bible”. They are mostly .308 diameter holes, with a few .45 and 9mm. Not much for reading that fictional fairy tale, but it sure is “holy”.

                • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

                  What we should do is start a religious book burning club, collect every bible and koran and other cult books out there and burn them in a big pile in a true sacrifice for humanity. The sooner we can stop the Religious brainwashing hate cult thought process, the better off the world will be. We will get back to loving the earth, respecting fellow man and stop the hate and division in our countries. It may take a few generations to get through this process, as the poisoned hanger on’ers will still cling to their security blanket hoax.

                • Coming for my Bible would be as bad if not worse than coming for my gun…..what’s that tell ya

                • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

                  BJ. I would not take away your Boopy security blanket from you. If you like your Bible you can keep your Bible. lol This is a volunteer program to discard hoax material.

          • Outlaw says:

            Howdy sixpack. Me and my families shtf happened May 2013. Unfortunately due to circumstances I don’t have the time/capability to post here as much as I would like anymore, but I still try to read as often as I can. I just wanted to let you know that you are one of my favorite posters here, and I am glad you post, as your opinions/views frequently reflect my own. Thanks to Kulafarmer and dave in Idaho also, probably a few others I am forgetting. Keep speaking the Truth!

            • sixpack says:

              Thanks, and even when our views clash, that’s okay too, because it gives us something to talk about. Like debating with people who don’t need to call people names and make personal slurs to get their point across. I must confess, I’ve been tempted to respond in kind on mare than one occasion.

              Usually I resist that temptation.

              I can sling shit with the best of them, but that’s not my purpose for coming to this site. I come here to see how other people think, and to learn something.

              Everything else is irrelevant.

              Have a nice day outlaw, and everyone else too.

      • AmericantillIdie says:

        Maybe we need to get Bush and Chenny and have a waterboard party and find out the truth. But someone as asleep as yourself will never wake the f%$k up. So why dont you join our beloved armed services and go kill some terrorist [along with a dozen or so collateral damage you know children and their mothers and grandmothers].And I live in America and can think and see for myself. Would you like some oats with your blinder? Oh fact check 9/11 sandy hook boston bombing and when your done try looking up the USS Liberty for a real surprise……………..

        • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

          Spot on American. Nice to see you awake and alert on the facts. If everybody would look up the facts and do your research. You would know who the real enemy of America’ s is. They are ak read on our shores feeding on us like parasites and its host.

        • possee says:

          yes and add all the wall street bankers, all of congress,scotus,potus and all the rest..

          be they jews ,christians,muslims,etc etc..they are all betrayers of their faiths..

          damned luceferian pedophiles..or what ever demonic faith they subscribe to..

          possee

      • Stolz Vorfahren says:

        David, would you provide a summary of your FACT CHCKED DATA? BJ is 100% correct so don’t attack people without providing facts.

      • FreeSlave says:

        “This article was originally published by Washington’s Blog.”

        For another perspective, please thoughtfully consider the following by historian Victor Davis Hanson:

        March 26, 2013 4:00 AM

        Why Did We Invade Iraq?

        The subsequent acrimony derives from the general amnesia over why we invaded.

        Excerpts:

        On the tenth anniversary of the invasion of Iraq, the back-and-forth recriminations continue, but in all the “not me” defenses, we have forgotten, over the ensuing decade, the climate of 2003 and why we invaded in the first place. The war was predicated on six suppositions.

        1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6.

        Read all 6 suppositions over 3 pages at:

        ht tp://www.nationalreview.com/articles/343870/why-did-we-invade-iraq-victor-davis-hanson

        Conclusion of article:

        TEN YEARS LATER

        The invasion of Iraq was a perfect storm predicated on all these suppositions — the absence of any one of which might well have postponed or precluded the invasion.

        That we have forgotten or ignored most of these causes stems not just from the subsequent terrible cost of the war. Instead, our amnesia is self-induced, and derives from the fact that 70 percent of the American people and most of the liberal media commentators supported the invasion, came to reverse that support, and remain hurt or furious at someone other than themselves for their own change of heart — one predicated not on the original conditions of going to war, but on the later unexpected costs in blood and treasure that might have been avoided.

        Given that less than a third of the American people initially opposed the war, the subsequent acrimony centered on whether it was better for the nation to give up and depart after 2004, or to stay and stabilize the country. Ultimately the president decided that the only thing worse than fighting a bad war was losing one.

        • oicu812 says:

          The invasion of Iraq and ousting of Saddam was planned a very long time before the 9/11 event was put into place.

          The 9/11 event was a three fold event; to further the jooster/bankster $$ grab thru the military war complex, and the payback to Saddam for reneging on a deal he had made with TPTB/Bush/CIA faction. The third and most important for the American people was the furthering agenda for the NWO and taking away more of our rights and liberties as laid out via the US Constitution and Bill of Rights.

          Plain and simple.

        • Mcdave says:

          @ FreeSlave,
          Perhaps the only intelligent post in this thread.
          Thank you.
          @ Mac,
          Its getting weird in here, ya know?

      • Plan twice, prep once says:

        I keep hearing in the news that torture doesn’t work.

        Amazing that the home invaders recently arrested who hit dozens of homes across the US in multiple states, got 100% of the homeowners to give up their safe combinations or the secret hiding places for jewelry and cash, with just a little pistol whipping?

        Hmmm! Liberals say the darnedest things?

    • SterlingSilver says:

      Does any of this even surprise anyone anymore?

    • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

      As soon as Bush Invaded Iraq in 2003, I knew right then and there, this was one big lie phony fraud fleecing scam scandal and pillage and plunder for Oil and the millions of lives displace and dead for Haluburton and Wallstreet profits. And the weasel MSM played this out to feed the scam. Bush Cheney Rummy Rice and Powell all deserve prison. All War Criminals.

      • The Old Coach says:

        Sooo, if it was a war for oil, why did we not just take it, instead of rebuilding their oil fields and then buying it from them at full market prices? Hmmmmm?

        We must be even dumber than you think.

        • Gold Dinars for Euros

        • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

          Imagine how much oil we could have bought for the 7 Trillion wasted on 2 wars. Or better yet 7 Trillion would have put a few solar panels on every house in America we would not need their oil. Imagine just a few Trillion into R&D technology for wind and solar energy. That program would have fully employed our population and the world would new be knocking at our door to buy the technology. Naw that’s too smart.

          Its more fun going into bankruptcy and paying for thousands of maimed and cripple vets draining our Treasury. Of course the MICM Military Industrial Complex Mafia would complain with No wars and no profit. Just goes to show you the mass corruption in our entire government and the political whores bought and paid for by war profiteers. Its sickening. What happened and what could have been. Another lost opportunity.

    • I have read but never posted on this site this is my first time to do so!

      I came to this site about 3 years ago and it was full of great people giving you ideas on how to Prepare for the coming hell that is on its way.

      For the last several months I don’t see some of the great people on the site anymore, that gave out all the information you need to survive.

      Today all you read is how you hate the Government, the Fed, the Military, the Cops, the Bankers the Blacks, the Hispanics, the Jews, the Christians, the Muslims, and it goes on and on. It is too bad this was a good site. All I can say if this what the Prepper Community has become we are DOOMED! GOD help us.

      Mac:
      This is for you. I think you should start a new site or change the name of this one to HHTF Plan (Hate Hits The Flan) because it isn’t SHTF Plan any more. This is a SHAME because this was a great place to come for help. I do see people on this site still trying to help and give little tips to survive, but the haters have taken over and they have run all of them good people off the site.

      To all you haters out there my God give the strength to change that hate into love for your fellow man!

      • I understand what your saying and I am guilty as charged. But I hate EVIL and it is growing all around us. Sorry I focus too much on the negative. My wife tells me all the time that I let all this get to me too much and let it anger me too much AND that I read post too much on this site….LoL

        Wrong or not, I wouldn’t be near as angry if this place hadn’t been infiltrated with cops, govt employees and those still in the right/left paradigm matrix.

        So yeah, I am guilty of hate and anger…….and having too much of it. But I can’t help hating evil and tyranny. Obedience to it would be disobedient to God…..one more thing I would have to constantly ask for forgiveness for.

      • dave in Idaho and hammerhead can teach about building/construction and power.

        NetRanger can teach about guns and ammo and how to make your own loads in a very specific nature.

        John Q Public can teach the truth about jews in name only (khazars) and the evil they are responsible for.

        Gods Creation can teach about the corp and TRUE LAW…not the color of law liars like sgt dale enforce.

        .02 can teach about shooting 🙂

        Be Informed can teach about earth quakes

        d kiddie pretender can teach about economimcs…..if you want the matrix false version

        sgt dale can teach how to be a dishonest weasel

        night breaker can teach how to kill….its what govt’s do best

        JOG could teach all kinds of stuff

        old coach can teach how to read books the winners wrote in their favor

        Your Daddy (really miss him) could teach about the catholic church.

        And many others here have great knowledge and know some really cool stuff and have years of experience of trials and errors.

        A lot of great guys and gals are still here….but when these articles come out with red lights flashing and sirens blaring “the sky is falling” everyday…..people get fearful and angry and then come the 1,001 opinions. I have found that if you just be persistent and ask questions, people will respond and then those conversations get started. Just my .02

        • Acid Etch says:

          I taught you stupid old people everything in the beginning. You were clueless. I am still A number 1 prepper.

        • oicu812 says:

          OMG, good to see your comments.

          There is something very unusual happening to this site. I have been a regular reader here for over five years.

          I have posted some previously under different handles/monikers.

          Only recently have I fully retired and have more time to speak out. Some take my words as hate, but I don’t hate anyone, even my whore of an ex-wife.

          I hate peoples “ways”, and call them out on it, just as I see it. Some on the sidelines call it hate. There is a difference.

          The hate as one person sees it is just stating facts and opinions as others see it.

          I have always called people words like dumbass and idiot, when I felt that way….it doesn’t mean I hate them personally.

          The site does need some modifications and some people could lighten up a bit; myself included. but to declare no words of disparagement will be allowed, is like asking the sun not to shine.

          If you want all warm and fuzzy and touchy feely good stuff all the time, I suggest one needs to find a rare childrens site, that may not even exist.

          To preach bullets, beans, and bunkers, all the time would not make for a long lasting preppers site that would last but for a handful of folks, that only want to talk about those things, especially the guns.

          I have my ideas and recommendations, but for now I’ll keep them to myself.

        • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

          Pretty funny BJ. True. The only way you will truely survive SHTF is to get the truth hard cold facts in your face reality as they are. Good or Bad, No sugar coated BS here. You either adapt and get it or parish with the other gullible sheep. Be the strong Sheep Dog.

      • Sgt. Dale says:

        OMG
        Welcome:
        Very well put. Way too much hate on this site. It has been going down hill for about 6 months now.
        I agree with you if the Prepper community is coming to all this hate we are in a world of trouble!
        Like you said you have been reading the article on this site for a while now. You can see the haters. Its too bad because they are ruining the site. The only thing we can do is pray for them.
        Sgt.

      • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

        Hey OMG. We all got prepared a few years ago. Anybody with a pulse did so. The world is changing and YOU NEED TO ADAPT. If you are looking for Prepper food Recipies there are plenty of other sites for that. Everthing is fluidly changing in the world and if you don’t have the mentality to understand the Global Macro Problems, You sure are not going to adapt your Micro World accordingly. Maybe you can go find what you are missing someplace else. That’s called a free society. You also may wake up one day and find your country has also changed and the great people who founded this are all gone. If you are clueless to why is will be becase you did not know why or who destroyed it. We are here to wake up the stoopid sheep out here with the truth. If you want feel good info go flip on the Boob Tube MSM and join the 97%’ers. If you are looking for stoopid daily stoopid jokes that clown disappeared also after being called out. Wake up to reality and join the truth seekers.

      • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

        Btw/ OMG. Seems you live in a fantasy world where you think some mystery God is going to save you from evil. How’s that wotking for you? There is more hate and wars derived from religion than any other cult out there and you are probably donating your money to that hate group weekly I would bet. False hope is a cruel dirty joke played on the gullible. Wake up sheeple!! You’ve been fleeced. Thanks for playing.

    • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

      If Torture produces Lies then Congress must be getting waterboarded daily. Money and Bribes prodiuces lies. How about that Mr Fung!!

    • Man on the inside says:

      Hosteges being held in a Sydney coffee house in the city center. Breaking News!! Bet they wish they had not got ridd of there hand guns….

    • Knot Jammin, Jr says:

      Today was my first time on SHTFPLAN in a good while. This story remind me of why I left. Too bad this site got rid of their comment ratings. I would have down voted you in a heartbeat. This story like so many other on this site is garbage without an ounce of truth in it.

  2. Copperhead says:

    Survival mindset:

    Fear is our emotional response to dangerous circumstances that
    We believe have the potential to cause death, injury, or illness. This harm
    Is not just limited to physical damage; the threat to one’s emotional and
    Mental well-being can generate fear as well.

    For the person trying to survive, fear can have a positive function
    If it encourages him or she to be cautious in situations where recklessness
    Could result in death or injury.

    Unfortunately, fear can also immobilize a person. It can cause him
    Or her to become so frightened that they fail to preform activities
    Essential for survival.

    Most people have some degree of fear when placed in unfamiliar surroundings
    Under adverse conditions. There is no shame in this!

    We must all train ourselves to overcome our fears. Ideally, through
    Good training, we can acquire the knowledge and skills needed to increase
    Our confidence and thereby manage our fears.

    We all must seek out and find a higher power from which
    We may draw hope and comfort; I also believe that this is a very personal
    Thing and we must all be free to make our own choice in this matter.

    MTCFMF!!//RIP America.

    • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

      Response to Fear is Fight or Flight. You only need to believe in youself. There is no higher power to save you. Unless you are refering to Luck of timing. Right or wrong place at the wrong time. You can choose where to be. The thousands of decisions good or bad over your lifetime got you to where today. Ask those in prison about too many bad choices.

      • Copperhead says:

        WWT: Sounds like you are an avid runner. I assure you there is a HIGHER POWER. Yes he can save you if you want, but the choice is truly yours and yours alone.

        MTCFMF!!//RIP America.

      • Sgt. Dale says:

        WWTI
        You have the wright to believe as you do. As for me I’m going to lean on the High Power like Copperhead. I’ve seen it at work.
        I know several people that believe like you do and they are very good folks. Like I believe you are.
        If I’m wrong I’m not out of anything If I’m right I’m in for a great after life.
        Sgt.

        • The Old Coach says:

          I got that one Sgt. I wonder if WWTI ever will…….

        • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

          Only weak people believe in a higher power because they are too damn lazy to make the changes themselves. Nobody needs a higher power or lucky rabbits foot. After you do the hard work yourself you gain confidence in your self to then take on more difficult tasks. Waiting for fate to see what happens to you is dumb an poor planning. If people would put the Babble doen and use that time to go learn a new worty skill they would not have to waste time praying tgat some magical creature will come and save them. You know Sgt Dale being on the front line seeing death daily that regigion never saved anybody. It was more stoopid decisions by people with no skills that got them killed. I saved many lives being a paramedic. Not once did a prayrr ever save anybody. It was the skills, drugs and IV’ s that saved them. Imaging us in an ambulance showing up to a heart attack victim and handing him a bible and saying how about we say a prayer and hope some higher power saves you. Bwhahahaha

    • the renegade braveheart says:

      Copperhead, AMEN to your comments. nothing I can dispute.

  3. dazed and confused says:

    Let’s see, the dems embraced this repot and the rethugs rejected it. Most if not all you morons constantly lambast the dems and praise the rethugs. Now in all probablity the rethugs will be in total control in 2016. That is really a comforting thought, torture backers in total control.

    • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

      I’m glad Mary Landrau of LA got kicked to the curb in her run off election race. We need to get rid of Feinstein, Polosi and Hillary…… The next Devil on Deck that will rip this Country apart in every direction. Her life Goal is to be Queen of the UN New World Order. She really sucks up to the ZOGs.

    • the renegade braveheart says:

      Dazed and confused, none of us here wanted what’s happening to this nation right now. Your moniker is perfect; fits YOU to a T.

      • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

        And to add to OMG comment above. Yes I would rather be discusding fishing techniques or hunting or food preps. But the biggest Threat we have out there right now in our face is a very evil corrupt government run by lying psychopaths fleecing our good people on the ground. A MILITARY controlled by the ZOG foreign policy and banks about to default due to their gambling and going to make us cover their gambling losses.

    • The Old Coach says:

      I have to admire the honor and restraint of the CIA folks. If it were me, there’d have been a rash of “suicides” and “accidents” among highly placed politicians by now.

  4. hammerhead says:

    I sure as hell didnt invite these assholes to fly planes into buildings in NY .
    F##K EM , they declared war, beat em to death for all i care. Hang em high!

    My biggest bitch is that an actual war was never declared by the Bush regime , we just went in with no plan and then stood around waiting to lose with soldiers held back by stupid rules of engagement .

    With all the wars since ww2 , why has war never been declared ?

    • Kulafarmer says:

      Why are there rules of engagement?
      I thought alls fair in love and war!

    • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

      The US should have Attacked Saudi Arabia since that is who funded 9-11 and those who flew the planes into t ghost e Twin Towers. Bush attacked the wrong country. Iraq never attacked America. Syria never attacked America, Afghanistan never attacked America, however Israel attacked America USS Liberty. Look it up….

      • Stolz Vorfahren says:

        WWT… very accurate comment.

      • Kulafarmer says:

        Dont forget that BinLadens family is well connected and can be tied to the Bush family and their dealings. The whole thing stinks of corruption to me.

      • dave in Idaho says:

        USS LIBERTY….GEE… I wonder who was president then??? could it be the same one who had Kennedy snuffed because he was going to pull out of Nam??? wouldnt want to turn down the war machine especially when you have a whole lot of $$$invested in planes and bombs. There is a book soon to be released about Jack Ruby being hired as congressional staff in 1947 by Nixon as a favor for Johnson.

        • dave in Idaho says:

          How did this comment get 30-40 spaces down here? this was in response to Americantilldie…I think… its been so long ago that I posted it.

        • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

          Did you know Jack Rubys real name was Jack Rubinstein?? No kidding. He changed his name to hide his Jewish ancestry. Yes and also look up JFK Executive Order EO-11110 June 4th 1963, that would have ended the Federal Reserves ZOG Loan Shark banking for the US. Kennedy wanted the US dollar backed by silver and not thin air. So guess who had the most to gain by killing JFK? Thus why the pre 1964 silver coins and silver certificate dollars. And all you get today is a dollar that is worth .05 cents and backed by “In God We Trust”. How’s that higher power and faith working for you stoopid sheeple? Bwhahahaha.

    • The Old Coach says:

      It occurs to me that our policy of unconditional surrender in WW2 raised public expectations for the outcome of “war”.

      Now, when there is need to just beat back an aggressor, without actually obliterating him, we don’t dare call it “war” anymore. How could you have obliterated Communism without occupying the Soviet Union and China, a logistically impossible task. So Korea and Vietnam were “police actions”, where the ROI wouldn’t even allow bombing the enemy’s supply lines.

      Same with the even older enemy of Christian decency, Islam. We beat Saddam with one hand, but did not blow up the Iranians for supplying IEDs to the “insurgents”. Ditto Afghanistan. Threw the Taliban out, but never cleaned out the rats nest in Pakistan. Islam festers in Somalia, Libya, Egypt, Sudan…..logistically impossible to occupy all that.

      Declaring war is an act between civilized nations. With the resurgence of Islam, we are re-entering the world of the Dark Ages and Medieval Europe, where Islam was so pervasive in the Middle East and Africa that Europeans had to expect to fight for their lives, often on their own soil, every waking hour for over a thousand years. Islam is a universal, all-pervasive threat to survival, like winter. Do you declare war on winter?

      • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

        Old Coach. Pretty arrogant don’t you think? Want to end terrorism? Stop invading other peoples countries and stealing their resources and installing puppet dictators who go along with the theft and create oppression on their populace. I guess if some other country wanted to come in as nd clean up your ratd next you too would resist ax nd be called a terrorist. People are smarter today and dont buy that crap you project anymore. Do the research. Our country has been under the policy of Perpetual Unconconditional War. What ever feels good for US Corporations.

      • hammerhead says:

        COACH gets it ,
        “Declaring war is an act between civilized nations. With the resurgence of Islam, we are re-entering the world of the Dark Ages ”

        Hence , torture is all these animals will understand.

        • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

          Let me get this strait. We torture those who are defending their homeland from us the foreign invaders. That would be like saying a house burgler breaks in to your house holds you hostage and gets to torture you and call you an animal and a terrorist all the while your home is being looted. BRILLIANT!! Lets go with that story line and hand our little flags so the sheep can wave them as we parade the burglers holding their guns marching down the road on veterans day and call the burglars heros. Brilliant!!!! Stoopid Sheep!!

  5. Woogie says:

    The recent report was made by liberal demon-crats, a bias, one liberal view, misleading report like Obamacare was by them.

    My nephew was water-boarded, given sleep deprivation, and was put out in the woods for days without food, no tools to survive, without water and shelter. He is a Navy pilot and this is his training.

    What we do to our own should be good enough for terrorists.

    This was Finestein showing if we hold hands with terrorists and sing koom-ba-ya, then terrorist attacks will no longer occur.

  6. Satori says:

    Torture Is “Not Who We Are.” Which “We” is This Guy Talking About?

    http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/12/torture-guy-talking.html

    umm’
    maybe it is who “we” are ???

  7. “Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds are added to those of subduing the force of the people. The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes and the opportunities of fraud growing out of a state of war, and in the degeneracy of manners and of morals engendered by both. No nation could reserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.”

    James Madison
    Political Observations
    April 20, 1795

  8. “Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct; and can it be, that good policy does not equally enjoin it – It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period, a great nation, to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that, in the course of time and things, the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it ? …

    In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. …

    So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. …

    As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils. Such an attachment of a small or weak towards a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter.”

    George Washington
    Washington’s Farewell Address
    1796

    • The Old Coach says:

      Washington was thinking and speaking within the European ecumene, where men were mostly rational, entirely Christian, nations were well organized, and such warss there were were conducted according to rules of honor. And Islam had been beaten back to be more of an annoyance, like lice, than a major threat to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

      Islam laughs at an address like that, noble as it may be to us.

      Seriously BJ, I think that, if you actually found a unicorn, you would immediately expect to make a fortune selling Skittles.

      • Islam is most certainly NOT a major threat to you, I or anyone elses life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness here.

        The only threat to my/our life, liberty and pursuit of happiness is the elite bankers Jefferson and Jackson warned us about. the politicians who work for them and the leo’s and military who do their bidding.

        No wonder you believe all the shit those books programmed in your head……unicorns? Really?

      • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

        Read the articles in the Treaty of Tripoly. The US was not founded on Christinanity nor do we declare war on any Muslim nations. This was ratified 100% by congress and signed by the President. Again a US violation of another treathy by our governing psychopaths.

    • the renegade braveheart says:

      BJ, AMEN to those 2 posts with the quotes from Madison and Washington. Have you ever read “The Federalist Papers”? Now, THAT is some powerful reading!

  9. Just sayin' says:

    ” The first casualty of war is the Truth”

    • Anonymous says:

      Just sayin, add to that the Constitution is the first thing to be discarded. It’s sadly nothing new either, Lincoln did it by arresting members of congress and having them held in jail when he found out they were going to vote against him. He also forcibly seized and shut down several newspaper publishers in the north who disagreed with his views. Franklin Roosevelt had 100,000 American citizens from California held in prison camps because of their Japanese ancestry, claiming it need to be done on the grounds of National defense. I wonder than why they didn’t lock up the 150,000 Japanese in Hawaii but left them all alone?

      These are just a few of the instances I’m aware of, I’m sure there are numerous other violations of the Constitution made by other presidents also. This is always done with the government claiming ” The Constitution is a luxury we can’t afford during a time of war.” I’ve always thought that if this document is what we have based our entire foundation of our country and our beliefs on, than war time is EXACTLY when the Constitution should be front and center, leading the way instead of being thrown away. If we don’t have the fortitude to believe this, than our faith in the Constitution is moot and pointless, we show to all the world that we have NO faith in our most precious principle of Government by ” We The People.”

      • oicu812 says:

        Thank you for pointing out truths about two of the most loved past presidents. They behaved like facists. We have had that same ideology in the White House ever since Teddy Roosevelt.

        Even the beloved Ronnie Reagan sold us out to the jooster/banksters. Our best bet would have been John F Kennedy Jr, and they killed him, shot him down.

        • dave in Idaho says:

          Ronald Reagan quote. The government isnt the solution… The government is the problem. He hated big government. Did you know Jack Ruby’s real last name was Rubenstien.. or something like that… no kidding.

          • oicu812 says:

            yea, i believe it.

            • oicu812 says:

              But, just like Odrama, he talked a good talk to sheeple.

              It’s their/presidenta, actions and signed documents that tells the truth. Reagan’s actions of deregulating banks led to the crisis coming to it’s head in 2008 and hence getting big bailouts….to big to fail!

              When a private company such as the Federal Reserve has no oversight, the people get screwed over.

              • Anonymous says:

                There are so many twists and turns in the JFK assassination that we’ll probably never know all the players involved or the facts of who did what. The man definitely had his enemies, the CIA, the Cubans, both the nationals and the communists, the mafia, large corporations who stood to profit handsomely if the Vietnam war could include a large, sustained US presence, and who knows how many more. The only reason the story wasn’t buried forever was the Zapruder tapes that caught the shooting in full for the world to see.

  10. SomeDude says:

    9/11 was a false flag. WTC 7 didn’t magically collapse. The MSM didn’t accidentally gloss over it.

    This torture report is just another shell game. The Illuminati is just laughing at us. Cheney had the stand down so the missile could hit thee Pentagon.

    HE needs the torture so we can have TRUTH!

    Won’t happen. This country is going down.

    • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

      We need to throw the Jews into FEMA camps and take our country back. And put the Blacks in charge of the torture program. The Jews destroted the Black culture and created the NAACP to create hostilities between whites and blacks.

  11. america is a joke says:

    america is finished as a nation.

    there is no coming back from this.

  12. oUCH says:

    I ain’t worried or concerned about what a “former” President did or didn’t do as much as I am very worried and concerned with what the current president has done and what he has yet to do.

    • possee says:

      oUCH

      “What he has yet to do” is predetermined by his handlers…

      His most effective games are golf,lavish vacations,inserting himself in every racial situation, and droning wedding parties in Yemen..
      total body count now around 3500 give or take…

      funny how they get all riled up over a few isolated (specifically targeted) shootings of minorities..yet not an outcry of droning kills by the thousands..

      hell its all target practice on those brown peoples miles away.

      Once they have it down to perfection..

      Guess who’s next on the target list?

      possee

  13. WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

    You ain’t seen Nothing yet. You think Bush was Bad? Then came Obama. You think Obama is Bad? Wait to see what Hitlery has in store for us. She will sell out the US so she can be Queen of the UN NWO.

  14. Chuck Spears says:

    This guy calling himself George Washington posts lots of essays at zerohedge.
    After reading of lot his stuff, particularly what he used to say about the occupy movement, all I can say is this:
    BEWARE OF MARXISTS WHO PRETEND TO BE FOUNDING FATHERS

  15. Anonymous says:

    Ted Cruz’s true colors and true loyalties have been revealed.

    Thanks to Ted Cruz’s procedural delay in the Senate last night over the budget vote, every single one of Obama’s candidates for federal judge appointments, regulatory agency appointments, and who knows what other slithering Communist snakes, got approved — clear sailing all the way. Previously, the Republicans at least had been able to block all of those nominations.

    Read the Reuters headline article this morning.

    TAKE A HIKE, TED.

    • OMG….that post is definitely going to give the righties here a coronary….LMFAO

      Let the spinning begin.

    • Old guy says:

      so what? the guys the republicans would install are just as bad. If Obama gets everything he wants then his waterloo will be that much sooner. Give him enough rope & he will hang himself. Obama is not exempt from KARMA.

    • possee says:

      How’d the nomination of Roberts SCJ work out?

      Appears he drove the final nail in the coffin for all of us in his vote for ACA..

      Ted Cruz..hmmmm..trojan horse darling for the neo conservative gangs..

      and his wife..

      Heidi Cruz
      Managing Director at Goldman, Sachs & Co.
      Houston, Texas AreaFinancial Services
      Previous
      Goldman, Sachs & Co., The White House, National Security Council
      Education
      Harvard Business School

      Goldman Sachs..sacking the world one nation at a time..

      possee

  16. STRAIGHT SHOOTER says:

    If they want to get information from you they will.

    Ever heard of MK-ULTRA ?

    It was BANNED but you think we still use it ????????

    They might be using it on us right now and we do not even know it.

    Look how drugged up we are in this nation with prescription drugs?

    Life can be hell.

    War, and being captured can be the ultimate hell on this earth.

    just my opinion………..

    Oh by the way do not get arrested NOW

    Forget your MYRANDA RIGHTS.

    Remember they can hold you for as long as they want to.

    AM I RIGHT, OR AM I WRONG ??????????

    OPINIONS PLEASE ???????????????????????????

  17. Just sayin" says:

    I hope people will stop saying the Twin Towers collapsed, they didn’t collapse they were pulverized to dust.

    WTC 7 collapsed after implosion. Compare the two. Pulverized and collapsed.

  18. Old guy says:

    There are lots of liberal do gooder,s who think they must force democracy & Christianity on the rest of the world at any cost. Guess what? its not working!

  19. Sgt. Dale says:

    9/11 was done over OIL!
    Torcher is wrong, but drone strikes are Ok????
    Everything was sold out in 1913 with the fed.
    They have to have bad guys to keep it going. Like the Russian, Chinese, Arabs, The American patriot, the Tea party.
    Sgt.

    • The Old Coach says:

      That really you, Sgt.???

      ID Hijack on Comment ID: 3289959 !

      ID Hijack on Comment ID: 3289959 !

    • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

      Torcher? LoL. My cell ph misspells words and its hard to move the curser back to correct the word. We know what you meant Sgt Shultz. Coming up there will be a lot of Torcher, fire will be a great force multiplier and equalizer. Prep with various fire extinguishers. Acid made a great comment and put a fire extinguisher in your bedroom. Also make sure you chang the batteries in every smoke detector, one in each bedroom in the attic and a few in your basements. These are real life savers for just a few dollars. Must haves.

  20. Satori says:

    The Global Bankers’ Coup: Bail-In and the Shadowy Financial Stability Board

    http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/12/global-bankers-coup-bail-shadowy-financial-stability-board.html

    “On December 11, 2014, the US House passed a bill repealing the Dodd-Frank requirement that risky derivatives be pushed into big-bank subsidiaries, leaving our deposits and pensions exposed to massive derivatives losses. The bill was vigorously challenged by Senator Elizabeth Warren; but the tide turned when Jamie Dimon, CEO of JPMorganChase, stepped into the ring. Perhaps what prompted his intervention was the unanticipated $40 drop in the price of oil. As financial blogger Michael Snyder points out, that drop could trigger a derivatives payout that could bankrupt the biggest banks. And if the G20’s new “bail-in” rules are formalized, depositors and pensioners could be on the hook.”

    • WhoWuddaThunkIt says:

      I’d Vote for Elizabeth Warren for Pres. I am all for breaking up the Bankster Cartel Joo Mafia

      • Pissed Off Granny says:

        If your post is not sarcasm, WWTI, then you never cease to amaze me.

        Why don’t you bother to look up Warren’s record and where her donations come from.

        Most all from people and places you abhor, WWTI. You might as well say you support Hilary Clinton, as Warren leans even to the left of her and is in bed with the same vultures who support the OWO.

        With just a small effort you will find her connections to Wall Street. Her top donator was Emily’s List, an organization that supports pro-choice democratic candidates. A quick check of Wikipedia will show you the candidates Emily’s List supports…..you will find all the ones that most posters here know are traitors to our country.

        Move On Dot Org was her second largest supporter. You support that organization, WWTI?

        Your support of Elizabeth Warren is second only to your “babble blabble” as far as stupidity is concerned.

        Warren is in bed with all the bankers, but in order to keep her left wing supporters happy, thus her speech against the legislation (which I do not support either). She knew the senate DID NOT need her vote to pass the legislation; thus she could take a stand that made her left wing supporters very happy.

        Look up her record, WWTI. I would hope your support was sarcasm.

  21. mark2856 says:

    well the lies are just out in the open now. how long
    before they pull the trigger? if it went my way all the
    power people would die and the rest of us would just
    keep on working hard and living!!!!! not just surviving

  22. Copperhead says:

    How Many Acres?

    I once read that you need less
    than 600 square feet per person to survive. Personally, I want more than
    survival.

    What do you want?

    If you eat three eggs each for breakfast, and use some for other purposes,
    you will want a dozen or maybe more eggs per day. You need as many hens,
    along with a rooster. We (there are three in my house, but one doesn’t
    count) eat less than a dozen eggs per week, most weeks, so three hens are
    enough for us. Excess eggs can go into the incubator, and the chicks can be
    sold if they are not needed for meat. If you don’t want to use an incubator,
    boil the eggs, mash them, and feed them back to the chickens, or save them
    for the pig, dogs, and cats. To feed the chicks, plan on letting them run
    part of the day, if you can. Plant desirable food plants too, whether you
    plan to grow your own feed or not, the fresh food is good for them. I have
    read, though we never did it, that one large zucchini and 3 lbs. worms per
    day is all you need to feed a dozen chickens. Chicken feed and soil
    amendments from a minimum of space, effort, and expense. Or give them 4 oz.
    grain per bird daily.

    For milk, do think about getting goats rather than a cow. One milk goat will
    produce all the milk you can use while she is lactating. Two, bred to
    alternating schedules, should leave you with excess all year around. You
    will need less than 1/2 acre of decent pasture for them and the chickens
    together.

    If you want beef, you should need no more than one calf per year, and I
    would suggest that you find a dairy in the area, and buy from them one male
    calf each year. Have a goat coming fresh at the same time, and raise the
    calf on the goats milk. You will have some of the healthiest calves in the
    area. Plan on butchering them young, as they take a lot of space as they
    grow up. Castrate if you are letting the calves grow much over a year, or
    they will want to visit the neighbor’s cows. Raise them in a pen for three
    to six months, and feed them only milk for excellent milk veal, or let them
    eat grass and raise them up to a year for good, lean beef that is still
    technically veal. This should be plenty of beef for a year, and won’t take
    over 1/2 acre.

    If you really want cow milk, look into Dexter cattle. They are a small
    breed of multi-purpose cattle. Two cows can run on two acres of good grass,
    and give you all the milk and meat you need, with some left over. You will
    most likely need to feed them, though.

    Think carefully before getting a milk breed of cow. She will produce five or
    more gallons of milk per day for 305 days per year. Many cows can give over
    13 gallons per day. She will need lots of grain to do it, and you will need
    tome to milk her, twice every day. Even the Dexter will give a gallon per
    Day, which is a lot for three people. Don’t forget to make butter and cheese
    !

    Pork is good. You can often pick up a weaned piglet for under $20, sometimes
    under $5. Feed it those leftover kitchen scraps, milk, eggs, and let it
    clean up the garden every year. Butcher at less than 100 pounds, and get
    another for the next year. Or go to the pork auction and pick up an old boar
    for less than 5 cents per pound. Take him straight to the butcher though, as
    he is strong enough to tear up your barn, and will, just for fun. Don’t even
    think about breeding your own hog.

    One acre of orchard should do for you: 4 Cherries, 2 apples and 2 pears
    around 30 ft. apart, 2 Peaches at 20 ft., 2 plums at 15. I’d add 100
    strawberries, 6 blackberries, 6 raspberries, and 4 grapes to the mix, as
    they will bear sooner. A few nut trees would be good to add, if you can grow
    them where you are. Maybe 2 pecan (35 ft.), 4 hazel (15 ft.), and 2 chestnuts
    (30 ft.). Even if you put in a 50 ft. row of asparagus, 4 hardy kiwis on a
    trellis, and 12 rhubarb plants, this is less than an acre. Fewer trees if
    your neighbors have them close enough for pollination, and closer together
    if you get dwarfs.

    I don’t know what you are gardening now, but 1/2 acre is a lot of garden.
    330×66 ft., re-arraigned in whatever shape it comes in. I wish my
    spell-checker worked, that word looks wrong. Point is, that should be plenty
    of vegetable and herb garden.

    Add at least 1 acre if you need a wood lot, and 2 or 3 for growing your own
    grain, though I don’t recommend it. Add 2 beehives to the orchard, if you
    can, and spend all you can on GOOD fences.

    Five to ten acres should be enough for three people, if you get decent land,
    put up good fences to keep out the vermin (deer, coyotes, feral dogs…),
    and put in the work. More would be nice, though.

    Land-Rover
    Passing on from an E-Mail

    MTCFMF!!//RIP America.

  23. Copperhead says:

    Asparagus Each plant will yield half a dozen spears during harvest season.

    Beans, bush One 10-foot row yields 8 pounds; yellow varieties tend to yield
    less.

    Beans, broad One 10-foot row yields 10 pounds

    Beets One 10-foot row yields 10 pounds; if you prefer small beets, double seeds.

    Broccoli One to three pounds per plant

    Cabbage One to three pounds per plant

    Corn Approximately 30-36 ears per 10-foot row

    Cucumbers 10-15 cucumbers per plant

    Eggplant Four to five pounds per plant

    Onions One pound of sets produces 30-40 pounds of onions.

    Peas, shell One 10-foot row yields 10 pounds.

    Peppers Six to 22 bell peppers per plant

    Potatoes Five pounds of seed potatoes yield 125 pounds of potatoes.

    Summer squash & zucchini If kept picked, one plant will yield 5 pounds of
    squash.

    Tomatoes Yields vary tremendously, but on average, 6-8 pounds per plant

    MTCFMF!!//RIP America.

  24. Copperhead says:

    Renegade Brave Heart: Have you felt any little ground shakers in your AO lately? The reason I ask is a friend E-Mailed and said there has been several minor earthquakes in the New Madrid Area but the USGS has not been reporting them. Something just may be going on and the Gov. may be covering it up.
    Just giving you a heads-up, but it may be nothing. Stay safe my friend.

    MTCFMF!!//RIP America.

  25. Kevin says:

    The Bush Administration were filled with Bush friends and those that went along with their diabolical plans! Bush was just as illegitimate as Obamma’s Presidency and Obama just further advances their agenda. These Evil Satan- worshipping thugs have no souls!

  26. Travis says:

    Don’t believe a word of this crap.

  27. jpl_texas says:

    This is why people prep. Whitey can’t keep oppressing the brown man around the world. By the way, anybody got any real evidence in the death and burial of Osama?

  28. Eagle 1 says:

    More military movement. 6 Apache helicopters landed at my airport, with one support chinook trailing not far behind. That’s weird enough, but the really strange thing was that they were all FREAKIN ARMED with 8 hellfire missiles, hydra rockets, and the 20mm. Asked one of the pilots what was up and he told me they were just taking a joyride. I joyride armed too, but nothing like that. Something is WAY off. Just fyi.

  29. Cellar Spider says:

    To all you people who are offended by the CIA’s actions…..I say to you in full…..What a bunch of sanctimonious bastards.

    When the Shit Hits the Fan, you’re going to be faced with either killing someone or not. You should be so lucky as to have the option to give someone an enema (a.k.a anal re-hydration) or pour some water down someone’s throat.

    People were scared just after 9/11. I was at Giant’s stadium a couple weeks after it occurred and when a plane flew over the stadium…the whole stadium became quiet. You could see everyone looking up at the sky. People were scared.

    Stop being a bunch of candy-asses. You do what you gotta do to get through the day. Period.

    • Tucker says:

      Might I be so bold as to ask which brand of women’s panties Cellar Spider prefers to slide on, just before he sits down at his computer and decides to post comments which proudly proclaim what a pants-crapping pussy he is?

      I do realize, being a Southerner, that any football stadium located above the Mason-Dixon Line is most likely filled to capacity with blue-bellied, yellow spined, nauseating, pants pissing Yankee wimps – but, I must say that I am still amazed at your girlish admission of just how cowardly and what chickenshit crybabies Northerners are these days.

      No wonder the North had to import Prussians and Cossacks from Europe to help them fight the War Between the States – since they were pretty much getting their wimpy asses kicked by the Confederate Armies for the first 2 and half years of the war.

      Let me relate my own experience and reaction to the events of 9-11 to Mr. Panty Clad Cellar Spider.

      On September 10, 2001 – the following article was published in the Washington Times Newspaper:

      “U.S. troops would enforce peace under Army study
      by Rowan Scarborough – The Washington Times September 10, 2001
      (Article ID: U00682760115, available through http://www.washtimes.com/archives.htm, search key “MOSSAD SAMS”

      “The SAMS paper attempts to predict events in the first year of a peace-enforcement operation, and sees possible dangers for U.S. troops from both sides.
      It calls Israel’s armed forces a “500-pound gorilla in Israel. Well armed and trained. Operates in both Gaza and the West Bank. Known to disregard international law to accomplish mission. Very unlikely to fire on American forces. Fratricide a concern especially in air space management.”

      Of the MOSSAD, the Israeli intelligence service, the SAMS officers say: “Wildcard. Ruthless and cunning. Has capability to target U.S. forces and make it look like a Palestinian/Arab act.” ”

      Thus, on the VERY SAME DAY the 9-11 terrorist strikes were taking place – from the first second that I was made aware of this news event on the morning of September 11th, I immediately remembered the article by
      Rowan Scarborough from the day before, and thus was able to IMMEDIATELY understand that the criminal, backstabbing, USS Liberty attacking, US Sailor mass murdering treacherous state of Israel were the real perpetrators of the false flag attack on the USA on September 11, 2001.

      Furthermore, I also immediately understood that these treacherous, Satanically evil bastards could not have pulled this false flag attack off – without the support and approval of the collection of neo-con treasonous assholes who were in control of the White House.

      Thus, while Cellar Spider Girl and a stadium full of panty wearing spineless imbeciles were busy filling their panties with loads of fear induced excrement – I was already busy trying my level best to spread the truth to as many people as I knew about who the real perpetrators of 9-11 were.

      Let me repeat this point. On September 11th, 2001 – within one hour of the terrorist strikes on the WTC and Pentagon taking place – I had ALREADY solved the crime and knew precisely who did it. And, much to the chagrin of gutless, pants soiling Yankee wimps like Cellar Spider and his stadium full of panty wearing Yankee wimps – I arrived at this revelation without leaving so much as a single hash mark in my skivvies.

  30. Tucker says:

    Paul Craig Roberts was perhaps the first writer who hit the nail on the head and exposed the REAL motivations behind the Bush-Cheney-neocon War Criminal Administration’s decision to break the law and engage in sadistic torture of these hapless ‘detainees’, and it had everything to do with them needing to prop up the bald faced lies they had told to Americans and to the rest of the world about 9-11 and about their lust to launch their phony, illegal, and unnecessary ‘Global War on Terror’, also known as the global war on any nation that the false flag terrorism sponsoring state of Israel hated and wanted the US military to attack and destroy for them.

    Here’s how Roberts basically summarized this neo-con evil. In order to bamboozle the stupid American public and in order to help con the US Congress into voting for endless funding to fight their phony war on ‘terror’ for the next 100 years – they knew they would have to manufacture ‘evidence’ that they were making ‘progress’.

    So, after Bush and Cheney had illegally attacked Iraq and destroyed the infrastructure of that nation, millions of Iraqis were out of work and had little means to earn money to feed themselves and their families. So, the neo-cons started offering $25k bounties to anyone who would turn in someone who they would claim was a ‘terrorist’. The Iraqis started capturing and turning over anyone who they might have had a personal beef with or who they held a grudge against – in order to collect those bounties.

    The neo-cons then dragged these captives off to one of their torture dungeons and then started torturing them until they agreed to sign ‘confessions’ that the neo-cons had previously written for them and which they would then wave under the noses of the gullible US Congress and in the faces of the media as ‘evidence’ that they were making progress in their phony and manufactured war against any nation or group of individuals who Israel hated and wanted us to destroy for them.

    In essence, these hapless captives were nothing more than stage props for the lying, war mongering, war criminal neo-cons – and their purpose was to help the neo-cons keep the fires stoked and the taxpayer’s money flowing into the military industrial complex so they could (a) keep these illegal wars going all over the world, and (b) use these wars as an excuse to shred the US Constitution, set fire to the Bill of Rights and create a USSR-style Police State here in North America.

    By the way. One and only one nation benefits from maneuvering the USA into going to war against every nation that the state of Israel coincidentally hates and who Israel would like to see destroyed.

    Thus, when pondering the identity of the real perpetrators of 9-11 – that ‘who benefits question should help even the stupidest among us understand who really engineered the events of September 11, 2001 and why they did so.

  31. Copperhead says:

    December 24, 2014 the U.N. Small Arms Treaty goes into effect. If the U.S. signs and ratifies it I feel this might happen.
    1. All holders of FFL’s will have their license suspend and their firearms, ammunition and accessories seized. Along with all firearm record books and 4473 forms. At the same time all Federal, State, and local list of license, permits, or anything you were issued to buy, possess or carry any firearm and ammunition will go into the data base.

    2. Voluntary turn-in period will be given. Some people will fall for this, but you will be required to let a thorough search of your property must be granted. In that search if 5 cans of spam and a case of pork-n-beans are found you go on a list of prepares for later purposes.

    3. After the voluntary turn-in grace period and your name is still on the list you will have all your utilities shut off and your driver’s license suspended. After you comply with the turn-in and search they will be restored.

    4. If you have still not complied and after a given time of say one week you will be labeled a domestic terrorist and your property will be raided and seized for the safety of the people.

    5. Now back to the survival list here come the raids for your food hording.

    Yes I know I’ll just pack up and go to the woods, well you and 50+ million others. If you live in between the mountain ranges there are not enough isolated woodlands to support everyone that’s bugging out. The main resource that will be scarce CLEAN DRINKING WATER let alone wild life for food. So you see things are going to get very ugly soon. I for one see only one way to stop it and I think you do to. Time will tell how these things will unfold and work out.

    The SH~T is about to truly hit the FAN.

    MTCFMF!!//RIP America.

    • Kulafarmer says:

      Read Enemies Foreign and Domestic, that series will get you thinking,,,
      God forbid what you wrote ever happens but it is definitely a possibility.
      NEVER
      Thats my answer,
      I am not kidding, would rather be dead, basic right to self defense, i dont count rocks and sticks as self defense tools.

      • slingshot says:

        By this stage in the game you should have all your stuff together and a plan in place. Our positions on Torture and Politics will give way to only Survival and the thought processes will become unclouded. I grow tired of this game and the public’s apathy toward any warnings.

  32. Sgt. Dale says:

    C.S.
    The thing with the CIA action is only bad if they are using on the other guy.
    If someone had your Kid, Wife, Mom or Dad. In a vault and the air was running out you would do what ever it took to get the info on the combination to the vault before the air runs out.
    Was 9/11 by Bush/Cheney or the Muslims, or both together. we will never know.
    The one thing I find odd is the people that are against Water Boarding are for Drone strikes. It to me is like people that are for abortion are against Capital punishment for a person that has commit a rape and murder, or what ever type of crime that will get you the death sentence, and a baby has done nothing!
    What crazy time we live in!
    Sgt.

    • Cellar Spider says:

      @SgtDale,

      I couldn’t agree with you more on the analogy between the death penalty and capital punishment. To me, it doesn’t matter who did 9/11. The fact is that it was done, people were murdered, and the murderers had to be found.

      To me, the government, the TPTB, and it is unfortunate that I have to say this, the expanded/morphed roles of the police as exploitive rule enforcers are the real enemies here.

      There are a lot of “connected” people / prominent members of society calling for physical revolt these days. It seems the days of “rational discussion” are all but over. It’s not just us “loons” that are thinking this way.

      Each and every one of us are going to be faced with “less than polite” decisions in the future that pale in comparison to anything the CIA did to those that were captured.

  33. Nick says:

    I really like this website and agree with nearly everything that is written but this one is over the top.

    I have no qualms about what the CIA did in regards to “torture”. There is pure evil in this world and you do what you have to do in order to kill those freaking pieces of human garbage. I believe most American’s do not fully understand this enemy.

  34. GoneWithTheWind says:

    All questioning produces lies and produces truths. The value is that with information from many sources the lies fall out and the truths are what is left.

  35. slingshot says:

    Their Final Solution is to bring in the New World Order.

    The United States of America and the Constitution be Damned.

    The end justifies the means.

    Now with that said, there is political chaos, financial disorder with societal disenfranchised, a whole lot of military both abroad and stateside enhancement that still increases, you know they do not care one bit about you. Except for your vote. Hahahaha!

  36. slingshot says:

    Has any of the discussion and preparations had an effect on what is happening around us?

    Getting directly involved? Let’s not go there.