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    Are Guns and Ammo the New Gold and Silver?

    Mac Slavo
    December 21st, 2011
    SHTFplan.com
    Comments (236)
    Read by 4,430 people

    As the economic crisis has worsened over the last several years we have made it a point to inform our readers about the possibility of a system collapse so severe that the regular flow of commerce comes to a screeching halt. Planning for such a far-from-equilibrium scenario, which may very well involve the collapse of a nation’s currency, requires that we consider alternative monetary vehicles to help us get through tough times. In What is Money When The System Collapses? we outlined several supplies that would become essential in a post-collapse world. Thing like food, water, gas, and clothing would become necessities not just for your personal use, but as barterable assets.

    We’ve always advocated investment into precious metals like gold, and especially silver in “junk” form, as these will likely be some of the few recognizable emerging currencies if the worst were to happen. Another asset class that will likely experience a boom in a post-collapse world is guns and ammunition.

    If there’s one thing you may have noticed about guns and ammunition over the last ten years, and especially since the economic and financial collapse of 2008, it’s that prices for these assets have steadily risen. Some may suggest this is a side effect of inflation, and while we won’t disagree that inflation has played a part, it is only a symptom of a deeper, more fundamental issue that is driving the value of these assets to historical highs.

    The people have lost confidence in the government’s ability to mitigate this crisis and they have no trust that government officials have their best interests at heart. Recent developments on financial, economic, and political fronts have left aware and responsibility-minded Americans with no choice but to take their financial and physical security into their own hands. As a result we’ve seen sustained multi-year growth growth in the value of traditional wealth preservation assets of last resort like gold and silver. Moreover, and quite telling of the lack of trust the American people have in their government, there has been an unprecedented growth in the number of Americans investing in non-traditional stores of wealth that include assets like guns and ammunition.

    For many, guns and ammo are the new gold and silver. Historically these assets have retained or increased their value, while also serving a practical purpose for post-collapse emergency preparedness planning.

    Via Ammo.net:

    Some of the fear-based psychological reasons for gold’s popularity in times of economic crisis appear to be similar to the reasons cited for purchasing guns and ammunition.  Michael Thompson, a small business owner from Virginia, had this to say about why he recently purchased 2,000 rounds of 223 ammunition to go with his growing collection of AR-15 assault rifles: “Since ARs are so well-known & widespread, quality ones don’t really go down in value.  I don’t trust what’s going on in Washington and a reliable firearm that’ll hold it’s value plus ammo that I can always re-sell later if I don’t use it up seems like as safe a place as any to put my money in these uncertain times.”

    Dustin Ramsey, a 28 year old self-proclaimed “realist” from Tennessee who says hunting and fishing are two of his favorite outdoor activities, counts the 5,000 rounds of 9mm ammunition he keeps on-hand as one of his investments along with gold coins: “I’m a hunter so I know I can use my guns & ammo to feed my family if something happens to our usual food supply and there’s a run at our grocery store. Plus, it seems like somebody on Wall Street is always getting bailed out nowadays and my faith in the stock market has been gone for a long time. Look, I’ve seen what happens when times get tough and I figure I can always barter a popular caliber like 9mm for other supplies like I would with gold if push comes to shove. And if a crisis never materializes where I need my stash of ammo, I still love to shoot so those bullets won’t go to waste. Given the uncertainty in our world, ammunition seems more practical to me than gold, whether there’s an economic crisis or not.”

    The following fact sheet (via Ammo.net) offers some compelling statistics for the viability of guns and ammunition as investment and/or wealth protections vehicles:

    Firearms and ammunition may not be a typical investment asset for most, but considering the growth we have seen in the last decade, many more Americans are turning to them in times of uncertainty, crisis and distrust. We have yet to see our government make any significant changes to our economic policies, regulators continue to ignore the fraudulent activities and outright scams in financial circles, our currency is under threat of losing its world reserve status, more Americans than ever require government assistance just to put food on the table, and our liberties are being progressively restricted on an almost daily basis.

    Given the reaction to these circumstances thus far, it should be apparent that for those looking to protect their wealth, as well as their lives as crime and violence rise, guns and ammunition may be an excellent egg to add to the diversification basket.

    Hattip Gunsmith, Red Leader

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    Author: Mac Slavo
    Views: Read by 4,430 people
    Date: December 21st, 2011
    Website: www.SHTFplan.com

    Copyright Information: Copyright SHTFplan and Mac Slavo. This content may be freely reproduced in full or in part in digital form with full attribution to the author and a link to www.shtfplan.com. Please contact us for permission to reproduce this content in other media formats.

     

    236 Comments...

    Vote: Click here to vote for SHTF Plan as a Top Prepper Web Site
    1. Looks like I’m a wealthy man then.

      People like this comment. Do You? Thumb up 31 Thumb down 2

      • blackriflewarrior says:

        I was thinking the same thing.

        Rate This Comment: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

      • digger says:

        Never barter guns or ammo!!

        People like this comment. Do You? Thumb up 19 Thumb down 1

        • McLovin says:

          2 kinds of people…

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a97cOa2Sy9A

          Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        • Old Southern Man says:

          You got that right. It could be used against you by the same person or somebody else. It would suck to killed or fatally wounded by one of your own bullets or guns.

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        • God's Cremation says:

          Amen to that!

          Rate This Comment: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

        • Sorry I have to disagree. There is a circumstance where such a barter makes sense. In the case of family of close enough friends to which you have trust, and to which you are getting a service in return for the firearm \ ammunition even if that service is your own group defense.

          I maintain enough small arms to outfit a decent group of people including a number of 22LR’s just to training purposes. There are people I know who I intend to call on that may own a 30:06 scoped deer rifle, but I have no clue if they have an AR-15 M4 configuration or not. They have services I know would be useful, and I can hand them an AR-15/M4, magazines and ammo in return for them joining with me for a common defense and betterment in services. I’m not about to worry “IF” they have the right weapons – I’ll have them and last time I looked I can only pull one trigger at a time – well maybe 2.

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          • God's Cremation says:

            Jim,

            I would think that is common sense. Perhaps we should be more accurate in our statements. No barter with people you do not know.

            If you ever need help, I would be of service. My friends Mr. Lewis and Mr. Noveske would also be of great assistance. I also know a Mr. Smith who might help out as well and his friend Mr. Benelli is also quite uesful.

            It’s always nice to have friends.

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      • Hammerun says:

        An old adage;
        Rich men buy Gold
        Poor men buy Silver
        Wise men buy Lead

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    2. soylentgreen57 says:

      I hope a lot more folks wake up… BUY BUY BUY

      People like this comment. Do You? Thumb up 20 Thumb down 2

    3. VRF says:

      Gotta have it to protect your investments, either they be property, food, or family. I dont leave home with out it.
      The ability to make my own reloads is also a priceless skill.
      I look for the cost of guns and ammo to go out of sight in the near future, they have aalready been on a steady incline for quite a while, and when more people wake up to the necessary fact of needing them, its called supply and demand, seems we are demanding more supply.

      When your own government declares war on its citizens wheat did they expect?

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      • VRF says:

        (**typo)…*What* did they expect?

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 6 Thumb down 4

      • Beefcake says:

        Ya, but do you really want to sell guns and ammo to the unprepared sheeple at the last minute? They will just turn around and use them on you to get to your larder.

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        • VRF says:

          Oh no , I never ment by that. I wouldnt sell anything of mine that has sentimental feelings anyways.
          I guess i should have said its “self” value..and in some cases with known people that i already am very familiar with , I might sell if they are in despreate need and I know i can help

          Rate This Comment: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

          • VRF says:

            And usually the “value” of these precious items such as Metals Rocks and Guns is not known until after such events.
            Thats when most learn that what gave them security and reliability in the hard times , will be there for them when the going gets rough again.

            Rate This Comment: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

    4. NPZ says:

      3 months ago, I had never even shot a gun. We now have 5! If that does not tell you something, i don’t know what will.

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    5. Sam not sam says:

      Really cool chart Mac.. thanks for posting this.

      I personally like the good old .22 LR . Excellent for hunting small game, relatively quiet and very cheap.

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      • Odd Questioner says:

        There is one thing ab’t the chart that I find odd, though. The price of gasoline has actually stayed lower than inflation up until 2002 or so, and petroleum prices have had a lot of external influences.

        This started because Saudi Arabia and Kuwait paid off their part of the Desert Storm debts by flooding the market with cheap oil. Then the market freaked out over Iraq, which drove the price up. Then China’s rise as an economic power began driving up the price, followed by an oil speculation bubble in 2007-2008 that blasted the price into the stratosphere for awhile. In the meanwhile, there were occasional plunges caused by politicians releasing oceans of petroleum into the market (Clinton, Obama) in order to artificially depress oil prices.

        Long story short, there’s more to the price of petroleum than an international market skittish about the possibility of collapse.

        In other news, I suspect the price of ammunition may come down pretty quickly as well, since the whole Iraq thing is supposed to be winding down. OTOH, no guarantees on this one.

        Rate This Comment: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

        • clem says:

          LC 5.56 M855 is available from Federal for a good price. Sold in cans of 420 rnds. Shoots good out to 600M. Stock up!

          Military will be buying M855A1.

          Cheers

          Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    6. Paul says:

      My Beretta 92FS………the new Platinum.

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      • Love it. That’s my handgun of choice right there. A platinum plated model would be a nice edition to the Slavo Armory.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 4

      • GSM1(SW) says:

        I never have liked the 9mm very much, I’ve owned a couple of them (Colt and Ruger)and other caliber auto’s. I now put my faith in the old school wheel gun chambered in .357 magnum. Fires a round every time, no stove pipes, no feed jams, and it hits like a fast train!

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        • 41MagMan says:

          I have a S&W Mdl 19 6″ in .357 mag. Heh, it’s my little wheel gun. When I want something to STAY shot, I depend on my Ruger .41 mag. It’s a beast but still controllable, shoots flat, and hits hard… VERY hard. :-)

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          • .41 Mag is nice.I use the 10mm rnd.The real 10mm not the watered down .40 cal spec stuff.The 10 is making a come back with alot to do with Glock making a pistol that was BUILT around the cartridge of the mighty 10mm.The Glock 20 has a 15 rd mag plus two additional.Thats 46 rnds one in pipe of Thor.All in a auto loader and reliable as with the Glock.I’s not a .41 but comes close with actual load specs of a true 10mm.Also good for hunting.And it shots flat the the .41.FYI.Those intrested in real 10mm rnds that are in line with orig specs from back in the day which are called “Norma Specs” ammo maker from Sweden go to “UnderWood Ammo” and they have em all at reasonable prices.A Zombie Gun.

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        • Granite Prepper says:

          I’m equal opportunity…..I have ‘em in 357, 9mm, 38 45acp and 22lr….and that’s just pistol as I like to spread the love!!

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      • DPS says:

        Paul,
        92fs is my all time fav. you just can’t go wrong with it. Buy lots of mags for it as well.

        DPS

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      • Odd Questioner says:

        Not a bad critter (and easy to shoot), but I’m still partial to my good old IPSC-rigged .45 ACP Springfield (M1911 frame) semi-auto. Everything on it works just the way I want it to, and it feels as familiar in my hand as a pencil or a cigarette would in anyone else’s. The 10-round extended magazines make it a perfectly-balanced weapon IMHO, and add a few extra rounds just in case. It is very simply built and easy to strip (or assemble), which makes it come apart (and back together) in no time.

        As a benefit, I won’t need as many rounds to get the same job done as I would with a 9mm. :)

        OTOH, not everyone is going to be as comfortable with a narrow elongated grip (especially if you have small hands), and it can get hellishly noisy. The ammunition weighs a lot more when you start piling up rounds. The all steel frame and slide is a bit unforgiving in the cold.

        But, to each his own. :)

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        • DPS says:

          Yep odd questioner the 45 acp is a fine gun, loads of fun to shoot and the knock down factor is WOW. My buddy carries the new colt 45 acp not sure of the model but it is a smaller version. I won’t wanna be the person that tries robbing his liq store.

          DPS

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    7. This kind of thought process is especially unique to our citizens all across America. Because we, Americans, have the right to bear arms to sustain and defend ourselves. This fact, alone, is the elephant in the room when it comes to government control.

      We can see and take advantage of future circumstances in our own country and around the world.

      When I say take advantage of circumstances, I am not saying for profits alone. Our survival in this economic collapse that will affect the world economy, depends on our ability to deversify and work in conjunction with those around us.

      Maintaining ones livable conditions during and after this coming collapse will determine how seccessfull many households will become.

      Those who have not put thought or practice into planning and carrying out any kind of preperation for what is coming, are the ones who will not be able to participate in this new bartering economy. They, instead, will be at the mercy of Government assistance, or the cherity of family, friends and churches.

      I have planned for sustainability as well as providing for friends and family members when the need arises. Beans, bullets and bandaids are a few of the items that will be utilized in our future economy.

      If you have not prepared for this life changing event, it is still not to late to get started. Talk with the people you know who have been prepping. Ask them for guidance and assistance before you and yours come just another government statistique.

      God bless and keep on prepping.

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      • DRD5508 says:

        Mona, it reminds me of the Iraq and Iran war. As the war between them was winding down, the Iraqis were shooting at hundreds of thousands of unarmed combatants thrown at them by the Iranian gov’t (Ayatolla). The Iranians were out of ammo and weaponry. Our gov’t may do the same to the sheeple, promising them assistance when they attack the preppers and defiant Americans.

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    8. Barn Cat says:

      A .22 is a pretty weak gun for self defense purposes. We became gun owners for the first time this year. We have a couple of Mossberg Bantam 500 shotguns. They fire slugs as well as bird shot. I don’t like handguns for home self-defense because the bigger the kick the harder it is to accurately put multiple rounds into an intruder. The Bantam is a pump-action gun and holds 5 shots. I can easily fire one round every second and do it accurately.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 12

      • machinist73 says:

        “A 22 is a prety weak gun for self defense”, have you ever seen anyone shot in the face with a 22 ?

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        • Transmutant says:

          Yep, at probably 75 yards; instantly efficient, ugly terminal damage.

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        • Mike Yes that Mike says:

          Yes at 75 yards pop it out like a pimple. Still have the scar.

          Rate This Comment: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 4

        • Barn Cat says:

          You made my point: in order for a 22 to be deadly you have to shoot someone in the face. A face shot is more difficult. All I have to do with my shotgun is hit someone in the body.

          A 22 is deadly if you’re shooting at squirrels or other small game.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 1 Thumb down 7

        • Richard in Denver says:

          There was a shoot-out at a 7-11 in Houston (I know because I worked there). The lady-manager kept a 22 revolver under the counter. One day a man walked in with a 38 revolver. She grabbed her 22 and shot him in the forehead and he shot her in the chest. She died, he lived and is spending his life behind bars but he is alive and she is dead.

          Like I said earlier, I have defensive weapons and will only use my 22 as a last resort. I don’t want to offend anyone on this website, but I feel that anyone who plans to place their life and the lives of their loved ones on a 22 as the “first-line-of-defense” is foolish.

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      • Beefcake says:

        More people are killed with the .22lr caliber in the US than any other caliber. Although it is tiny, it ricochets around in the body causing massive damage, especially when it strikes a bone or other hard object in the body cavity.

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        • Richard in Denver says:

          More people are killed by a 22s because there are more 22s in circulation than any other caliber. It’s simple math.

          I know this sounds crazy; but, if I had to choose being shot by either a 308 or a 22, I would pick the 22. Assuming the same shot placement, I realize the 22 CAN KILL ME, but the odds are much greater that the 308 WILL KILL ME.

          Fact is, 22 bullets are DIRT cheap and if they really were considered defensive ammo, then law enforcement would be using them rather than much larger calibers weapons.

          Regarding the use of a 22 for personal defense, consider this. Why do you think the FBI changed from a 9mm to a 10mm? Read the facts on their site.

          As for me, I have a 22 for very small game and a 30-30 for larger game. For defense, I have a 12 ga, a 45 acp, and a 357 mag. I would use my 22 only as a last resort (after all my defensive weapons and my 30-30 was out of ammo).

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          • machinist73 says:

            I would have no problem using my Mark II for self defense,but my Super Redhawk is a lot more fun to shoot, and the sight of it alone makes some people shit down both legs

            Rate This Comment: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

          • Granite Prepper says:

            I agree on the 22lr being “last ditch” when it comes to home defense. If…..and that is a big if it gets to a point I’m down to 22lr for self/home defense……I’ve done something seriously wrong or my opponent has done something seriously right!!

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          • Beefcake says:

            Richard, the FBI TRIED to switch to 10mm but found their agents couldn’t handle the recoil so they eventually went with the 40 smith and wesson. You are correct however regarding the amount of 22 in circulation and most people are killed by them from thugs and gang bangers because most concealable “saturday night specials” were chambered in small calibers such as the 22. It’s the crap of society that I believe contributed to the 22 kill ratio statistics.

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      • Jim (another Jim) says:

        No offense Barn Cat, but if I take my ruger 10/22 and three 25 round bannana clips, that is a lot of power. I dont disagree with you on a 12 guage shotgun for close in fighting, but the 22 can reach out and touch someone. I guarantee you if you get shot two or three times with a .22, you are not gonna want to continue the fight unless you are jacked up on drugs. It may not kill you, but it will take you out of the fight.

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        • blackriflewarrior says:

          You would be suprised at what a .22 will kill…shot placement is everything.

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          • Old Southern Man says:

            He’s right. It’s all about shot placement. One shot will do ya. any expert will tell you that.

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          • 41MagMan says:

            Yes, it is. But in a combat situation a person is all jacked up on adrenalin and heavy physical exertion. VERY few people can place their shots all that well under those conditions. It is the mis-placed shots that still hit the enemy that most often kill. Before you get too in love with your shot placement, trying running at full speed for 500 yards and THEN shoot at even a still target. If you can hit a man silhouette target anywhere at 100 yards, you are doing pretty well.

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          • Old Southern Man says:

            That’s why I practice so much. Hopefully under duress I will place my shot where I want it to go.

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          • Richard in Denver says:

            Shot placement is extremely difficult when shooting at a human being while under duress, stress, anger, concern, fear, an adrenalin rush, shaking hands, and tunnel vision. Just saying.

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        • DPS says:

          Plus with the 22cal you take a person’s knees out at 100 to 200 yrs. Good luck geting to me with no knees

          DPS
          PS and for those more intense moments well, I think I’ll leave that alone since I lost all my guns in a bass fishing accident..

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          • Barn Cat says:

            It’s unlikely you’ll have the advantage of needing to kill someone from a great distance and have that guy give you a nice clean shot. If someone kicks in your door and you have to grab your gun, you’d be lucky to get a shot anywhere in the body.

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      • Well, hoop deee dooo!!!
        What are you firing in that Mossberg that has less kick than a pistol??
        Be well

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      • Odd Questioner says:

        Dunno about shotguns vs. pistols.

        I do agree that a .22 makes for a pretty weak pistol (and is about as accurate as a water balloon, unless you’re having that gunfight in a crowded elevator).

        OTOH, I don’t quite get the argument that a shotgun has a lighter kick(!?) than a pistol. I mean, seriously… You’d have to be swinging around a .50 Desert Eagle or a .454 Casull before the kick matches that of a 12-ga, especially one loaded with anything that could be considered lethal.

        OTOH, there is one good point about a shotgun – the pellets won’t go through as many walls as my .45 ACP would. You also get the benefit of not having to be as specific with aiming the thing.

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    9. in looking at that chart, the one thing that stands out to me the most and pisses me off the most……..is the gas price from 2003 to 2008/current.
      The whole thievery with the oil/gas BS is just a huge pet peeve of mine

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3

    10. Hammerun says:

      Welcome back Mac, it’s been a couple of days. Had us wondering…???
      I have been around guns all of my life. Owning guns is like owning underwear. However though in the last couple of years I have made a change in my buying habits. All in our group have. A couple of years ago we found out about the MosinNagant 91/30s. Keep in mind I already have an assortment of chosen weapons already. These 91/30s are ridiculous. I cannot figure out why everybody that wants a rifle doesn’t have 2 or 3 of these things around. You can buy them for $80 to a $100 bucks and the rounds run like $90 bucks for 440 rounds. Hello; that 20cents a round, that’s cheap shooting in anybody’s book. I have bought 6 of them and restocked and installed nice glass and bipods on 2 of them. Crazy accurate!! (for a 70 year old weapon). You can get these things anywhere, for dirt!! As good as Gold and Silver? Most likely, in some cases!!

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      • It pained me not to post yesterday, but it’s been a wild week of just making sure I do my part for the economy. Trying to keep up with the Joneses and all that :)

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      • McLovin says:

        Damn right Hammerun, I picked up one for $79 a few weeks ago.

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      • Hammerun says:

        heres a funny link.
        Humorous Comparison of an AK47, an AR15 and a Mosin Nagant

        http://www.mouseguns.com/compare.htm

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      • crash and burn says:

        Amen to the good ole Mosin Nagnt! the only downside is racing home to clean it after firing it because the surplus ammo is corrosive to the barrel.

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        • Hammerun says:

          Crash and Burn;
          before you and others say it, I know it’s wrong but when I clean these guns I first use Windex to dissolve the salts, brush them a little and use a bore snake and blow them out with a blow gun and then give them a good coat of WD40 and then wipe off. Then stuff them back in the vault. Hey; what ever works.

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          • crash and burn says:

            Thanks for the tip…..will do it next time….ive been using ole hoppes #9.

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          • DPS says:

            Hammerun,

            The main problem with wd40 is that its a penatrating fish oil, it makes a gun look really good however it can and will cause ammo to misfire. Its extreming bad for the 22lr ammo since the ammo does not have a good tight seal. try this sometime, take a few 22lr clean them off with a rag sprayed with wd40 , wait a day or 2 and go fire then, I found that it will cause 30% to 60% to misfire. its even worse with a shot gun round.

            DPS

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          • Eagle 71 says:

            Hi Hammerun,
            Your earlier post and link were awesome. The link was oh-so-true!

            I have two Mosins. Took one and replaced the wood with a monte carlo stock, added an inexpensive scope, and viola – a “poor man’s hunting rifle”. Never took anything down with it yet though…last time I went hunting hogs with it in Texas, they all skedadalled when they saw what they were up against.

            The other is in my safe…cleaned it (pretty close to your method), and there it rests.

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        • Kevin2 says:

          I’m told all com-block ammo is corrosive primed regardless what the sales outlet may say. It’s supposedly more reliable in ultra cold weather.

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      • AZ Ready says:

        Picked up a Mosin Nagant and 880 rounds this week to add to my collection. For the money, what the hell it can’t be beat. One long ass barrel though!

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      • Mike C says:

        Hammerun, you are absolutely right about the Mosin Nagant 91/30 rifles. I have 2 of them, and they kick ass at the range. I refinished them and added nice recoil pads and LER scopes. These rifles also have a historical record of being the sniper rifle with the most kills ever. Best bang for the buck for sure. Like the SKS though, the prices will go up. Get em while there still cheap.

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      • DRD5508 says:

        Hammerun, I’ve had one for over two years. Others ahd told me not to get it, got it for $89.00 and you’re right about the ammo; cheap. I’ve let 3 of the skeptics fire it, now 2 have one and the other is still thinking about it. By the way, it is pretty darn accurate and I like the fact that it is very well balanced, easy to clean and nice and loud.

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    11. DRD5508 says:

      Enjoyed the chart Mac. The chart itself begs the question to be asked: Any questions? Now each of you know your assignment.
      Among a few of my partners and I, over 50,000 .22LRs have been purchased over the past 6 months. I know of people with between 20-60,000 rounds of various cal.
      Thanks again Mac.

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    12. Beefcake says:

      Reloading your own ammo. Priceless.

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    13. Nacinator says:

      Meet the new Bill Gates!!!!!!!!

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    14. Y'all Beware! says:

      Saw a video on ammo storage located at http://prepper.tv/ they suggested that if you are going to store ammo for a long period of time and you are in an area of the country with large swings in temperatures, you can store your ammo in a large cooler. This adds insulation to stabilize temperatures and make your ammo last longer. Good idea to put ammo cans and packages in these coolers. I’ve got some stored in foam coolers too.

      Don’t forget about Air Rifles as some of those Gamo units shoot their PBA pellets at 1200 fps. The best part is that the propellant is free!

      Y’all Beware!

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      • Kevin2 says:

        I don’t know how Uncle Sam or whoever the owner was stored ammo but I shot US Military 30.06 dated 1944 post 2000 without one problem. It was accurate too. I was always amazed at how much ammo they made during WWII. I seen it at bargain cost four decades after WWII ended. Since then it started to dry up; about time.

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    15. Guns and ammo are not the new silver and gold because they are not commodities. Not only can I not sell my ammo back to Walmart at current prices, .223 for example has little or no value to those who do not have a rifle which uses that caliber. Unlike a commodity, a Ruger 10/22 has no established market price. The price is settled upon is based upon individual negotiations. I recently bought a gun collection well below value from a friend being charged with a felony well below market price because they were harder to liquidate than silver and gold.

      That being said, guns and ammo will be valuable barter items in the future. Boxes of ammo are relatively small and easily divisible. Unlike food which people often promote for barter, it has no expiration date and can be used to obtain food.

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    16. Kevin2 says:

      Guns are a cool hobby. I been a Second Amendment advocate for over two decades. When ammo becomes currency I get nervous. Then again when debt gets to enormous levels, the US de-industrializes, inflation is officially tabulated omitting food and fuel, every politician save one thinks more debt is the answer and the 4th, and 6th Amendments are cast aside for supposed safety I get nervous too.

      Imagine going into a coma in 1975 and waking up now. I would have a difficult time believing this was all real.

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      • Old Southern Man says:

        AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!

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        • Old Southern Man says:

          Imagine going into a coma in 1975 and waking up now. I would have a difficult time believing this was all real. Most don’t think in those terms. The boiling frog scenario.

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          • Kevin2 says:

            Old Southern Man

            They used the “boiling a frog” strategy exclusively up until 911. They liked the stealth approach, it worked real well. They since changed their previously established game plan. That in and of itself is telling us something. They are in a hurry and I see the tempo accelerating; are events now driving actions as opposed to the old plan of actions driving events?. They also no longer care if the people see what they are doing. They tried to operate in the shadows before, no more.

            I ah scared to take a long nap now. Ya don’t know what your going to wake up to.

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          • Old Southern Man says:

            Every day I’m astonished at the audacity of our politicians and their bureaucrats. I must say if Ron Paul is not able to turn this country around we are doomed to a fate of Fascism, Communism, NWO… you pick one. Either way we loose our freedom and our liberty.

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    17. VRF says:

      one thing i have to say about my investment in arms, is.
      None of the ones I have owned have lost any value, and most if not all of them are worth more now than they were when i purchased them.

      plenty of them also carry very sentimental reasons for owning them, to me.

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    18. Finx says:

      Hidden due to low comment rating. Click to read it.

      Poorly-rated. What do You Think? Thumb up 3 Thumb down 150

      • …. I think you may have just opened up a can of whoop-ass on yourself Finx….

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      • Hammerun says:

        Can we say “cough cough” Obama!!!!

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      • Mcfrolie says:

        Uhhh Yea. Riiiiight.
        What do you call this world you live in?

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      • mike says:

        You need to look at your stats again. Less guns always means more centralized power. Violent crimes down? Every society has gone straight to hell when the gov’t banned ownership.
        Problem with gun laws is that they only apply to people that obey the law.

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        • Fed Up says:

          According to the stats I am aware of, the areas of America that have relaxed gun laws have the lowest rates of crime. Same goes for states with relaxed carry laws.

          mike you are correct, every dictator got their citizens disarmed before or shortly after taking complete control and things went to hell fast for the citizens.

          When guns are only in the hands of government, gangs, and hoodlums, the citizens who just want to live peacefully are screwed.

          In sum, Finx needs to re-evaluate (or maybe share whatever it is that has been consumed, LSD?).

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      • machinist73 says:

        Finx= Dumbass, I do use gun control, I hit what I am aiming at, so don’t get in the way Finx!!!!!

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      • Jim (another Jim) says:

        Wow Finx, you are on the wrong site.

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      • eshonmalik says:

        where do you live exactly??? If the shit storm starts I’ll send the hungry mob your way.

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      • RICH99 says:

        10 gauge 8 inch. The only problem is when you sell, that person tells ten other people. “Who you going to trust when they come for you”.

        Colt Python (ss 357, 2 1/2in!, 1911), Browning (Belgium, hump back only please) & H&K have really gone up in value. Who says diamonds are forever?

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      • tom says:

        suk on this finkster muscle!

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      • VRF says:

        Hahaahah, oh…he was serious?

        wow..

        oh yeah

        Bahawawawwawawwawawa

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      • Cntct 71M says:

        FINX: My Grandfather had a saying for people like you, ” Plumb eat up with a case of the DUMBASS”. You are riddled with a massive case !

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      • Lakeside says:

        Idiots have opinions too!

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      • hey, Finx..this little girl Tennessee born and raised says: Screw You!!!
        Carolie is about to jump your butt, too.

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      • Joshua10 says:

        Ten out of ten dictators and tyrants would agree with you!

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      • Hey Whoopass Finx

        This is America. That kind ‘a talk don’t go over well in these here parts. Better crawl back under that thar rock before you get spat on.

        On the other hand, if EVERYBODY had an opinion like yers, I believe it be called “consensus”, then I reckon there won’t be no reason to have guns.

        But unfortunately, that don’t be the case. Too many hoodlums and scoundrels with low self esteem, eyeballing me and my provisions to satisfy thar selfish wants.

        Sad truth be told. Until the day comes when guns be a thing of the past; anger, hatred, selfishness, greed and evil doin’s be what this here arsenal in my homestead be all about, I reckon.

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      • Old Southern Man says:

        “No Guns” Means total control with out recourse by a tyrannical Government, without any means of defending yourself from thieves,robbers and murdering trash.

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      • disector says:

        Hey Finx…go f yourself

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      • delr says:

        dumbass.number of violent crimes goes down as number of gun owners increases.PROVEN FACT.great britainis now a pest hole with all VIOLENT CRIMES ON THE INCREASE. DUMBASS!

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      • DPS says:

        Finx,
        You poor empty man I pray you don’t have a family to look after.If you do when and if you make it to TX just let them konw they have a place, However you will not.Sorry gang this one is kinda long.

        Your Disobedient brother,
        DPS

        Take the time to read this it does make a lot of sense also be sure to read the gun history at the end!!!!

        My old grandpa said to me ‘Son, there comes a time in every man’s life when he stops bustin’ knuckles and starts bustin’ caps and usually it’s when he becomes too old to
        take an ass whoopin.’

        I don’t carry a gun to kill people. I carry a gun to keep from being killed.

        I don’t carry a gun to scare people. I carry a gun because sometimes this world can be a scary place.

        I don’t carry a gun because I’m paranoid. I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world.

        I don’t carry a gun because I’m evil. I carry a gun because I have lived long enough to see the evil in the world.

        I don’t carry a gun because I hate the government. I carry a gun because I understand the limitations of government.

        I don’t carry a gun because I’m angry. I carry a gun so that I don’t have to spend the rest of my life hating myself for failing to be prepared.

        I don’t carry a gun because I want to shoot someone. I carry a gun because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed, and not on a sidewalk
        somewhere tomorrow afternoon.

        I don’t carry a gun because I’m a cowboy. I carry a gun because, when I die and go to heaven, I want to be a cowboy.

        I don’t carry a gun to make me feel like a man. I carry a gun because men know how to take care of themselves and the ones they love.

        I don’t carry a gun because I feel inadequate. I carry a gun because unarmed and facing three armed thugs, I am inadequate.

        I don’t carry a gun because I love it. I carry a gun because I love life and the people who make it meaningful to me.

        Police protection is an oxymoron. Free citizens must protect themselves. Police
        do not protect you from crime, they usually just investigate the crime after it happens and then call someone in to clean up the mess.

        Personally, I carry a gun because I’m too young to die and too old to take an ass whoopin’…..author unknown (but obviously brilliant)

        **********************************************
        A LITTLE GUN HISTORY

        In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929
        to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
        ——————————

        In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. ——————————

        Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
        ——————————

        China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
        ——————————

        Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable
        to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
        —- ————- ————-

        Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
        ——————————

        Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
        —————————–

        Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
        ——————————

        You won’t see this
        data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.

        Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.

        Take note my fellow Americans, before it’s too late!

        The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.

        With guns, we are ‘citizens’. Without them, we are ‘subjects’. During WW II the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!

        If you value your freedom, please spread this anti gun-control message to all of your friends.

        The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either. The final
        weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental.

        SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN!
        SWITZERLAND’S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE.SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!! IT’S A NO BRAINER! DON’T LET OUR GOVERNMENT WASTE MILLIONS OF OUR TAX DOLLARS IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE ALL LAW ABIDING CITIZENS AN EASY TARGET.

        I’m a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment! If you are too, please forward.

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        • Richard in Denver says:

          DPS – thanks for sharing this – all of this is true; unfortunately, only gun owners seem to understand this – the people who have never owned a gun seem to be unable to understand this.

          I believe it was either Thomas Jefferson or Ben Franklin who once said: “a government that fears its armed citizens is a government that should be feared”.

          Jefferson also said, “No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.”

          And he said, “Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state.”

          And again, “The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed and that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of press.”

          And both, Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin often said, “Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”

          Everyone living in America and enjoying the freedoms and choices should read the famous quotes of our Founding Fathers – that is the only way we will continue to be truly free.

          Unfortunately, too many Americans only listen and believe what our elected officials, our courts, and the “main-stream” news media tell us as they lie and misdirect historical facts that made America great.

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          • DPS says:

            Richard,

            Here is a couple for you,

            “A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks.” Thomas Jefferson

            “…arms…discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. …Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived the use of them. ” – Thomas Paine 1775.

            “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference – they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good.” – George Washington

            And this is mine,
            “You can say ‘stop’ or ‘alto’ or use any other word you think will work but I’ve found that a large-bore muzzle pointed at someone’s head is pretty much the universal language”

            DPS

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          • DRD5508 says:

            How about this one: But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially those of his own household,he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever; I Tim.5:8. Security is something to provide for one’s family.

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      • John Q. Public says:

        Clearly a flamer’s joke.

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      • Mike C says:

        Finx, are you on the crack pipe ? You must be high!!!!!!!!!!
        People like you are the reason why the Hitler’s and Stalin’s of this world had little trouble achieving their evil agendas. Read your history !!!!!!!!

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      • Ben Dover says:

        Worked out well in D.C and Chicago.

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      • Ben Dover says:

        What color IS the sky on your planet?

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      • Granite Prepper says:

        broke away from the British in the 1700s and now you’re using them as a litmus test for our gun rights……

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      • Claymation says:

        “Less guns means less violence in all statistics.”

        Back it up or shut it up! You are nothing more then a distraction, move along now Finx, adults talking!

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      • Richard in Denver says:

        Finx,

        After GB took away all the weapons of the citizens, there was a high spike in violent crime which continues through today – gangs (they call then hooligans) run around with bats and such and beat the brains out of innocent people which robbing them – do some research before you open your mouth because you don’t know what you’re talking about.

        What is going on in GB doesn’t happen in Texas because most creeps know that a lot of Texans employ concealed gun carry.

        And, the country with the lowest murder rate in the world, yet has more weapons per citizen is Switzerland. Again, do your homework before yapping.

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      • RWS III says:

        Sarcasm I hope….otherwise you have no hope….

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      • Cave Man says:

        If you think criminals will give up guns, you’re dead wrong.

        If you think citizens of America are better off being unarmed while criminals are still armed, you’re phucking stupid.

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      • osu740 says:

        LOOK AT EUROP AND THEN TELL ME ABOUT GUN CONTROL. WE DO LEAVE PROTECTION TO THE POLICE AND LOOK AT WHAT SHAPE OUR CITYS AND SCHOOLS ARE IN! BUT THATS OK YOU JUST KEEP ON LIVING THAT LIBERAL CRAP! AND WHEN THE WOLF IS AT YOUR DOOR I WANT YOU TO FIRST CALL THE POLICE THEN TELL THE WOLF TO STOP THEYE ARE ON THERE WAY!!! PLEASE LET ME KNOW HOW THAT WORKS OUT FOR YOU

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    19. Mcfrolie says:

      Guns as an investment? Maybe. But with a Nics background check paper trail there is a chance of losing that investment with no return.
      Also, There is more to gun ownership just that having a gun. Taking the time and money to get real world training is mostly over looked by the new owner. Ownership does not make you a gunfighter and in many cases could be deadly.
      Buy a DVD, go to a class, hell watch You-tube and do drills in you basement. Learn how to use in defense of lady Liberty. You are going to need it.

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      • clem says:

        Mcfrolie….
        Right on! Training is very important. Being able to qualify with any given weapon is only a part of your responsibility.

        There are several occasions that I have not been armed and managed to work my way to safety. This is, in my opinion, one of the most useful tools available to me. The weapon is insurance and I see it as a last resort.

        Call me what you will but I do not wish to face a crooked judge or be forced to move due to an incident. This survival mentality should be included in a good training course and reviewed from time to time.

        I sure love to reload and shoot, don’t get me wrong. But just like the good ole cop on the beat said,”I never had to draw my pistol”. Very impressive!

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    20. mike says:

      Have 2 gun safes. One registered, one unregistered. Wife and I went to a gun show a couple weeks back. Wasn’t a gun show, was an AR15 show. I get worried about that, ownership doen’t equal profinency. Also be careful about buying bulk ammo, that will raise flags.

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      • Paddy O'furniture says:

        The last gun show I went to was about 75% AR15. Very little else. Nothing against the AR, but there were a whole lot of mall ninjas just buying crap to hang off their guns. Make sure you can shoot it well before you go hanging fuzzy dice and chrome visors and stuff on it.

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        • Richard in Denver says:

          Paddy O’furniture, good point as they are a bit more complicated than a revolver and will jam which can get you killed if you don’t know how to unjam fast like while being shoot at.

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    21. RICH99 says:

      10 gauge 8 inch. The only problem is when you sell, that person tells ten other people. “Who you going to trust when they come for you”.

      Colt Python (ss 357, 2 1/2in, ) & Browning (Belgium, hump back) have really gone up in value.

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    22. Kent says:

      In my view only a fool or idiot would be without protection. Darwin candidates one and all. I have no problem with that. I’ve seen too many friends victims of crime. Let them give theirs up, if they have one, and make sure they advertise it widely, guaranteeing they will be the ones visited first by the hordes. I’d appreciate the advance warning, truly I would.
      I love my Mosin 91/30, .308 power on the cheap, and one tough gun. But also the .45′s, good old .22 LR rifle,.44 mag, rifle and pistol for destructive firepower at closer ranges and the hi penetrating .357 mag. Now seeking to get an AR 10 7.62 by 54…….
      And life does go on…..

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    23. Kent says:

      I forgot to mention the two twelve gauge pump shotguns..must be gettin’ old.

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    24. Mike says:

      Peace through superior firepower, works every time. As for Finx, wake up, you won’t last very long. Sharing won’t be an option. The mobs will leave and yours rotting and take what they want, Period.

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    25. Finx says:

      I only buy guns and ammo locally. I purchased 3 guns through retailers that required 3 backround checks. That was enough for me. I buy all my ammo second hand from forums and thats how I buy my guns too. Its actually cheaper that way. Gotta look for the deals.

      Ammo prices have skyrocketed. I dont shoot as much as I used to but I keep buying the same amounts of ammo.

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      • Old Southern Man says:

        You need to put the bottle down!

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      • JustMe says:

        Turn in your guns, share your rations with us, and get on your knees. You have the potential to be an excellent slave….

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      • DPS says:

        Finx,

        In one post you state you are against guns!! The next post I read is about your wisdom about buying guns!!
        So which one is it? No may be a good time to look at your med dosage and consider a higher dosage!! Around here that dog wont hunt.

        DPS

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      • BWAHAHAHAHAHA! You kill me, Finx!

        YOu really stirred up the hornets with that other post.

        Either you’re schizophrenic or you were just messing with us. I’ll have to vote for the latter.

        In your buy local post, above, I agree for a couple reasons:

        1. It confounds the feds and the state tracking mechanisms and it virtually eliminates their ability for widespread confiscation. Can they get yous? Sure! They can come to your house and pick them up. But, they don’t know how many you have or if you have some hidden.

        2. You can get some GREAT deals! To many people, guns are things of beauty. I agree! However, when I’m purchasing “investment quality” guns, I buy guns that are in excellent mechanical shape but may not have been lovingly kept. A little surface rust, scratches in the stock, dents in stock, scrapes, etc mean NOTHING when you’re protecting your food stash or hunting for food. The people that buy guns for looks sell them CHEAP when they get a little rusty or dinged up.

        I have some FANTASTIC shooting guns that were practically given to me. One shining example is a Winchester Mod. 75. Bought for $50 with a busted stock. Some good furniture glue and WOW! Dime sized groups from a light sporter at 50yds with good 22lr ammo out of a $50 gun makes you smile with every shot.

        Other advantages are: no sales tax, no background checks (I’m squeaky clean but don’t like the paper trail), great prices.

        The wierd thing is that even if you ask the average person that owns a gun or two (and may even be an avid shooter but not an avid buyer/seller/collector) they’ll claim that you have to have SSNs, names, addresses, gun permits, receipts, DLNs, etc, etc. All incorrect.

        In my state private sellers only have to worry about three things:

        1. Is the individual you’re selling to a felon.
        2. Is the individual you’re selling to out of state.
        3. Is the individual you’re selling to under aged. (long guns = 18, handguns = 21)

        If any of the above 3 things are suspected you are not permitted to sell.

        If you’re a buyer, you have to worry about:

        1. Is the gun stolen?
        2. Is the seller out of state?

        Buy ‘em up! Keep them secure.

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        • DPS says:

          NetRanger,
          I don’t think Finx owns a gun one, I think he just came here to stir up some sh-t and that he did. He did not know that in a strange way we at the SHTFplan site are all family. And on a differant note as I prepared to go shopping today I was getting a little bummed out. 5yrs ago I would have never been checking my GBH bag to make sure I had enough ammo, 5 yrs ago I wouldn’t feel the need to carry 2 handguns just to go shopping. Its really sad that it all comes down to this. And the really sad part is what are my odds of finding a gift in this small town not made in China? Well I guess if I was rich I could get everybody a new shinny American made gun. LOL
          I hope you and your family have a meery Christmas NetRanger.

          DPS

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    26. Brent says:

      Unfortunately, due to the National Firearms Act, most people can only spend one round of ammo at a time in commerce.

      However, there are some videos at this web site that show how you can spend multiple rounds very quickly http://poormansmachinegun.com/

      Some monetary theorists believe that there are two major components to inflation in commerce: 1) The amount of money created by the banking cartel; 2) the velocity at which money changes hands. The web site mentioned, above shows how to increase the velocity at which money is spent through the use of carefully placed rubber bands on AR style carbines.

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    27. freeport56 says:

      Precious metals; Brass, Copper, and Lead!

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    28. Satori says:

      I love my Ruger 10/22
      but my weapon of choice for home defense is my shotgun
      I’ve gotten pretty good at rapid firing
      and the mag contains a nice mix of 00 buckshot and slugs

      and don’t nobody be hatin’ on Obama
      his election was the best thing for gun and ammo sales
      in a long time !!!
      long live the 2nd Amendment !

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    29. Highspeedloafer says:

      Wow!!! That was a fantastic article. I am sharing it with all my friends.

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    30. MM2nuke says:

      Don’t forget primers, wads, gas checks, bullet molds, lead ingots, dies, chemistry skills, shot molds, etc.
      May not have any PM but with the above and good skills you can get by better than most. Without ammunition and a way to make it, a gun is an expensive stick.
      Been reloading since I was 7, started with shotgun ammunition and a lee load all, still have it after 10000 plus rounds and it still does the job.
      Lee… the poor prepper best friend.

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    31. Scotch Egg says:

      .22

      a versatile round for hunting, think small game. Barter, think the most popular round in America. Plus you can buy BOATLOADS for a reasonable price. Good Luck all.

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    32. efruge508 says:

      I know this is off topic but does anyone know what happened to Alt-market.com?

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    33. BadAmerican says:

      Finx..life is not lollipops and unicorns.

      Agree that the world is a dangerous place.

      Agree that only you are responsible for your own safety.

      Agree that it is better to be judged by 12 than be carried by 6.

      Agree that if you have to submit to those that can force their will on you, then you are a slave.

      Agree that more options always lead to better choices.

      Agree that you are the weapon, and a gun is just a tool….like you

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      • Fed Up says:

        “Agree that you are the weapon, and a gun is just a tool….like you” HAR HAR HAR HAR!!!!! I just laughed coffee out of my nose!

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    34. mike says:

      Here is where my problem is. I have enough, but love them and always shopping for them. I need to put myself in check and focus on other things.
      Something I am concerned about is the gov’t is starting to pay some attention to websites for people to buy and sell firearms without paperwork. Daily Crux just ran a story about that.

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    35. Fred Phudpucker says:

      Even though ammunition is not a commodity, the price of ammunition depends on what the general price of commodities are doing. In a typical round of ammo you can find brass, copper, lead, moly and a host of other elements which were mined out of the earth and were sold to ammunition manufacturers at prices that were based on the cost of extracting these commodities out of the ground. So it stands to reason that if commodities are indeed priced higher today than at times in the past, the same thing can be said for the rising prices everyone pays for ammunition.
      I just sold 3 pistols – a newer Ruger 5 shot handgun, an old Smith & Wesson revolver and a mid 1970′s Colt Python with the 6 inch barrel. I got $1600 for this group of weapons at the local Cabelas and then turned around and bought a new S&W S&P 15 (assault rifle) that happened to be on sale for less than $700; plus 1000 rounds of 5.56 ammo and some other accessories for the gun. The Python fetched more than I originally paid for it and I was pleasantly surprised at what they finally gave me for it. Santa even managed to give the Mrs the last $250 left on that gift card from this transaction as well. So in this house at least, acquisition of guns, gold & groceries like all of our other prepper duties is a completely normal activity these days. That all here happen to be on the same page about all of this is truly a blessing too….

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    36. Mad_Max says:

      Funny chit on guns.

      http://dontevenreply.com/view.php?post=84

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    37. Patriot One says:

      Wow if my FMJ is currency, I think I’m starting to feel like a millionaire again. Collapse, Cleansing, Currency, it might not be all bad.

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    38. Redbirds1100 says:

      Even though ammo could potentially be useful to barter but I would be careful about bartering ammo I would not want to trade ammo then that same person could use that ammo to load their firearm and then try to steal from me. I would hate to think of a scenario like that but look what is happening in Greece and Rome it is a dog eat dog world their. Their is plenty of looting and civil unrest and that could happen here.

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    39. USMC4dogs says:

      Finx …
      I wonder how high the crime rate was during those wonderful London roits. I guess you can consider the dead and wounded to be from natural causes. Its only natural for unarmed sheeple get robbed or killed during a riot or any other WROL situation.

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    40. SWIFT says:

      I have other guns, but for car and home defense, I’m looking at a Stoeger coach gun in 12 gauge. Very maneuverable, well made and a killer delivery with 3″ mag 00 buck. The price $350, I don’t have to pinch pennies for. A Christmas present to myself.

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    41. coldinwisconsin says:

      Mosin Nagant 91/30…a fencepost with a barrel…
      “Safety? We don’t need no steenking safety!”
      MN’s are a gateway drug, to Finn Rifles!!!!! They took mosins, tuned them ,accurized them, put on LONGER barrels. Finn M91. Snow camo and good to go.
      Great rifle just to whistle somethin out there, and convince them to just go away….Finn M91. Buddy sez “You paid $200 for a Mosin?” Then he looked it over, shot it, and wanted to buy it. Na uh. Mine

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    42. durango kidd says:

      90 million gun owners hold the fate of America in their hands. Pass it on.

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    43. You know there is still a lot of mis-information about firearms and self defense. For instance the .22LR does not “bounce around” in the body. The tumbling effect attributed to the 22 caliber bullet is from the Vietnam era M16 rifles which fired a .223 bullet of 55 grains from a barrell with a slow twist rate. This caused the bullet to fly off axis, inducing a slight wobble which caused the bullet to hit and tumble. This was a design feature to compensate for the lack of expanding bullets used in compliance with the Geneva Convention pact concerning the types of ammo used.

      Study well, pick the weapon you are comfortable with, and practice like your life depended on it. ANY weapon is much better than no weapon at all. Don’t get caught up in gun debates so much that you forget to prepare.

      Peace
      FightNGear

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    44. Henry says:

      Huh?

      “Official US unemployment has risen from 8.6% in the fourth quarter of 1999 (a 30-year low) to 4.1%”?????

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    45. Frank says:

      Here is an idea that I would like your thoughts on. The Dutch just came up with a deadly flu strain that has no known cure at this time. Obama wants an internet kill switch. Police can turn off the cell phone towers to only accept emergency phones during an emergency. We would be afraid to congregate with each other with a pandemic flu going around and it would not matter how many guns or how much ammo you had if we could not help each other in a crises. They could pick us off one by one. Possibility or not?

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      • AZ Ready says:

        Frank, I believe a lot depends on where you live. The cities will be a problem whether it is a pandemic or economic disaster. Dead bodies everywhere, be it flu, starvation or gunshot wounds. Those in the rural areas will be less susceptible to a pandemic for lack of interaction with people. I also believe those of us on sites such as this are aware of the potential problems that are coming our way and we prepare as best we can to survive the many different threats we may face.

        Just my feelings…

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        • durango kidd says:

          I heard that Page Arizona will be a staging area for DHS to control all of the Four Corners area, protect THEIR water supply and suppress the Mormans in Colorado City.

          Just saying …. :-)

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    46. Y'all Beware! says:

      DPS, you really covered it well.

      Finx,

      With that outlook you can save some money and take toilet paper off your list, cause dead men can’t wipe their ass. Just a thought.

      What people are feeding you this BS about England and reduced crime? Don’t you do any research for yourself?
      Here is part of your education as people there don’t have firearms to protect themselves.

      Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade.
      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html

      Restricting firearms has helped make England more crime-ridden than the U.S.
      http://reason.com/archives/2002/11/01/gun-controls-twisted-outcome/singlepage

      NOW HERE IS REALITY AS YOU HAVE NO FIREARM. Two men bust into your house. One puts a pistol to your head and as you watch, the other rapes your wife! Then they beat you and your wife and rob you. This happens today and the SHTF has not even really started yet!

      Get yourself a gun son if you can. Become proficient in its use and protect the people you love.
      PS How old are you?

      Y’all Beware!

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      • Kevin2 says:

        Regarding the law abiding use of firearms here are some facts compiled by the State of Florida regarding carry permits that are indisputable.

        1. From 1987 until today over 2 million carry permits have been issued.

        2. In the 24 years from 1987 to date 168 licenses have been revoked for a crime in which a firearm was utilized.

        The above speaks for itself.

        The information can be found by surfing the Florida Division Of Licensing web site.

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    47. Y'all Beware! says:

      Finx,

      I did not see your other post and now I’m happy you can defend what’s yours.

      Y’all Beware!

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    48. SmokinOkie says:

      It was early in November ’12
      I remember well the day
      Screaming liberals filled the stands
      When the Bomster came to play

      He tipped his hat, picked up the bat
      And strode out to the plate
      The fans were chanting ‘Hope & Change’
      The Bomster thought (I’m great!)

      A overlooked conservative
      Was standing on the mound
      He froze the batter with a glare
      And spat upon the ground

      Bomster said “Just throw your best
      In this political/sports forum
      I’ll beat a Perry or a Newt
      A Bachman or Santorum”

      The umpire yelled “Now let’s play ball!”
      As Bomster took his stance
      ‘Four more years, four more years’
      Came the growing chants

      The pitcher made his wind-up
      And squinted in the sun
      The stretch, the throw, it whizzed right by
      The umpire yelled “Strike One!”

      The Bomster kept his cool facade
      But felt his neck hairs bristle
      The pitcher stretched again and launched
      A horizontal missle

      “Strike Two!” called the umpire
      The Bomster only grinned
      He’d take that pitcher out next time
      This game was soon to end

      His grip was iron on the bat
      Sweat trickled down his spine
      He smiled and nodded to the crowd
      They all thought ‘He’s just fine’

      Bomster glared out to the mound
      Who was that pitching gnome?
      Well, it didn’t matter anyway
      The next one he’d smash home

      Then came the lightning laser-flash
      It burned the catchers mitt
      Bomster swung and hit the air
      Said to himself (OH sh#@!)

      He stood there stunned to silence
      But the umpire had no doubt
      It echoed like a canyon
      “Stee-rike three! You’re out!”

      The fans were streaming out the gates
      Their hopes were changed to dust
      There is no joy in Liberal-land
      The Bomster was a bust!

      He thought again (Who was that guy?)
      That made the mighty fall
      The media ignores him
      His jersey just says ‘Paul’

      Michelle picked up the girls and flew
      To Maui in a huff
      Bomster stayed behind to pack
      His oval office stuff

      Outside the White House came the crowds
      United with this shout
      ‘There’s hope yet for America
      The Bomster’s been thrown out!’

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    49. Highspeedloafer says:

      Nice stuff there!

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    50. MM2nuke says:

      New twist on Casey at the bat. I just can’t go with Paul though. Isolationism is a losing game. Domestic issues I agree with but I’ve been to the gulf and they want us dead or converted.

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      • Kevin2 says:

        MM2nuke

        “Domestic issues I agree with but I’ve been to the gulf and they want us dead or converted.”

        Sending US troops there gives them the opportunity to kill some of us. Six years in Iraq was not fighting terrorism. Actually neither is Afghanistan.

        This is all about geo politics securing the oil resources by positioning US troops and installing governments that are under control and will continue to accept the declining in value US dollar for oil purchases.

        Globalism gave us a trillion or better in cost and 53,000 dead in Korea, 59,000 dead in Vietnam making the world safe for Wall Street so cheaper labor can be found.

        Defense? We have the ultimate defense…nukes. No one is invading. Stop terrorism? You don’t do it going from mud hut to mud hut in Afghanistan. We’re there to put up a skirmish line between oil fields and China and to get the Natural Gas and oil from the Stans to a warm water port. The USSR wanted that pipeline too.

        None of this is about terrorism.

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        • MM2nuke says:

          Kevin2,
          I’m not worried about terrorists. The stated goal of the islamofascists is global domination. They already control most of Africa, Europe, Asia, and they are destroying Christianity in every section of society. Left wing right wing no wing… They will keep going until the world is under Allah.
          The PTB seem to think they can control them to help their goals of world domination but religion trumps money every time.
          The only way to win is to pull their 6th century heads from their asses is by teaching them that equality and freedom for all is the truth not butchering their wives and daughters for honor(!?!)

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    51. Here is some real practical experience with the 22LR.

      I’ve killed two whitetails with one shot each, 22LR CCI stingers in a rifle I was very familiar with. I’ve been standing next to my grand father who slaughtered very large hogs with a 22, one shot to the brain pan, these were domestic and the shot was done with barrel pressed right to the hogs head. The two deer I killed with the 22 was at a time when I did not have affluence, I needed meat, so I went and did what I had to do, long time ago, I shot one through the spine at the base of the neck, the other in the heart, the heart shot deer ran 45 yards and piled up dead, the one shot in the neck went down immediately. I have also shot MULTIPLE deer with the .223 round again, spine shots, double lung, or heart shots.

      I look at hunting and shooting the same way I did when growing up, we needed the food, we didn’t have much money, ammo is expensive when you are poor, we made every shot count. I remember buying one box of .410 shotgun shells to last the season. When I went out hunting grouse, I took three shells, when I came back I had a grouse and two shells….etc. I practiced shooting 22LR constantly, there is NO SUBSTITUTE for practice and working with a 22 is great as you DO NOT develop bad habits from lack of teaching and the influence of recoil to beginners. Thankfully I could afford 22 shells, even in practice, I attempted to make every shot count.

      In summary of all the above comments and my own opinion, it does not matter what caliber you use, unless for specialty shooting, what matters is PLACEMENT. Especially at range. Shotguns are great for up close, doesn’t mean a pistol can’t be deadly as well. Practice practice, practice….get your sight picture down with every firearm you choose to use, know where it hits beyond a shadow of a doubt. And if in doubt and in fear for your life, keep pulling trigger until you exhaust your magazine, reload and repeat, there are applications for spraying lead.

      I view firearms as a TOOL, where I grew up, everyone had one or more and we used them when ever needed, for deer, for grouse, for wild ducks, geese, rabbits, squirrels, furbearers. During certain times of the year, we used them every day. Kind of like a toothbrush, everyone had one and used it everyday!

      So, whatever you have, practice, that is important. I agree with…You can never have enough Ammo, Firearms, Knives, Food, Proper Clothing, you get the drift…

      I also so reload/handload for rifle, pistol and shotgun.

      Also collect some references on gunsmithing and attempt to practice.

      Also, you can never have enough gun Cleaning Supplys! I have several boxes (wood crate and a smaller wood box) with all types of cleaning tools and supplys. Never throw away a toothbrush! Rags aplenty….LOL, never enough rags…

      Just my opinions and experience talkin,

      Merry CHRISTmas and Happy Holidays all, be safe,

      Terry

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      • Anonymous says:

        And I have seen two patients in the ER shot in the head by .22 rim fires—both awake, both angry. In neither case did the projectile penetrate the skull. I have seen similar cases with .25 ACP.

        Why handicap yourself in defending yourself, your wife, and your children?

        In my professional opinion, based on terminal ballistics against SOFT targets, .40 S&W, 10mm, and .45ACP are the choices for sidearms. Against SOFT targets, 9mm, .357 mag, .41 mag, .44 mag are over-penetrators.

        If you are dealing with KEVLAR/HARDENED/ARMORED targets, use a real rifle—with AP if you have it.

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    52. This is in vinyl letters on my truck tailgate

      “The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government”

      Thomas Jefferson

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    53. Redneck2 says:

      Guns & ammo were soaring in price long before Obama ever ran for president. I remember (early 1970s) when Smith & Wesson’s mainline .38 Special police revolver had an MSRP of $84 and it sold used double that by the mid-1990s.
      Lead is the ultimate precious metal.

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    54. Frosty21 says:

      My question is about ammo care.What is the best way to store and care for ammo long term?

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    55. Richard in Denver says:

      I’m reading that some are willing to stake their life on a 22; as their primary defensive weapon. They stress “shot placement!” Relying on a 22 for “shot placement” for personal protection is pure bunk. Anyone believing that is delusional and has never used a 22 for personal defense.

      It’s easy to hide, waiting for a rabbit, and then shooting him with a 22. I’m sure the shooter is calm and collected; after all, how much harm can a rabbit do him? I mean, it’s not like he has sharp teeth and will attack at any moment nor is the rabbit going to return fire.

      Now, let’s change the above scenario into a life or death situation. The perp has a weapon and he intends to use it on you. You draw and fire. How good is your shot placement? I can tell you, based on factual documentation of self-defensive shootings, that shot placement is reduced by an estimated 60% compared to shooting stationary targets. Because of stress, anger, concern, fear, an adrenalin rush, shaking hands, and tunnel vision, shot placement is poor, at best.

      Has anyone seen the video on “Cops” where the perp and the cop draw on each other while standing apart a mere four feet? The cop shoots his Glock discharging 14 rounds and the perp, while running away fires back around 5 to 6 rounds. All shots MISS their intended target. Only the perp’s coat had a bullet hole in it. All that shooting (and by a trained police officer at that) and neither man was hit! And, this is only one example of thousands of examples of defensive shootings.

      For those of you who intend to use a 22 as your primary defensive weapon, you will not survive a major social meltdown. And, don’t get mad at me for saying that. You have the Internet, do your research.

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    56. Mr. G says:

      Well, its 9mm, 30-30, 7.62x54r, 7.62×51, 7.62×39 for my calibers, and all in HP, SP and steel-core AP variants.

      Never felt good about any .22 cal – seems too underpowered.

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    57. Been shot at twice.Never had the chance to even fire back.One was rifle from 3rd floor bedroom from a distance and 2nd was foot chase and perp had about 100 ft lead on myself and 2 partners.He stoped dead in his tracks turned around and sprayed.We dove for cover and he fled into bldg.Dog got him out.Every situation will be different.

      Be Safe

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    58. Anonymous says:

      I’ve got police friends that say they shoot a 22 pistol for staying in practice. I say shoot the the gun that you plan on defending your life, shoot the gun that you plan on putting meat on the table. Never heard of anyone carrying a concealed 22 to protect their life…

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    59. Echo KIA says:

      I know I might get flamed here, but lets face it. 99.99% of everyone on the board has not been in the actual circumstance of either being shot at or having to shoot back to save their life/or another life.

      I read alot of bravado, and most of it is bullshit. Most people here know how they would like to respond in life threatening scenarios, but no one hears actually knows how they WOULD actually respond.

      Sure training is better than being unprepared, but going to the local range a few Saturdays does not prepare you for shit. Anyone that says otherwise is either lying, or in serious denial.

      You do what you can, and thats it. It’s better to be armed, than unarmed. But all of this pontificating is pretty annoying from alot of armchair warriors.

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    60. Slappy says:

      I really love how these comment threads go into the weeds; started out as discussion about guns and ammo as commodities and then spins off into .22LR is good/not good for self defense.

      WRT the guns/ammo as assets discussion, I shake my head every time I see some idiot quoted by name in an article bragging about how many thousands of rounds they have stashed away. You might as well beg criminals to come over and rob your house!!!

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    61. Kenjmr says:

      Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns. Australia banned handguns and crime rose dramatically. Heard this recently, 70 percent of the handguns in the world are in the USA! Regarding Mona, I like your post’s thought process. I’ve long thought, that despite the low opinion most here have of the sheeple, the Holy Spirit will awaken and inspire the great masses of God fearing folk to action. If you find the religious reference offensive, I’ll rephrase. In a Jungian sense of man’s collective consciousness, a mass awakening will occur. In some ways, I think it has already started. At a recent lunch hour visit to the gun store, I noticed 4 females, different ages, purchase a 38 revolver and state their plans to take the concealed carry course. At wally world, wives with ammo lists. Gun and ammo sales thru the roof. The majority of Americans come from family that immigrated just a few hundred years ago. Those character traits have been inherited. I admit, most have become “soft”. I’ll take a hit on that as well, but I still believe the American spirit is alive and still beats within their breasts. Let us mentor and witness, despite the apparent disinterest. The spark you strike may become the fire that warms your heart.

      Oh, BTW, there is no greater deterrent than the sound of racking in a 12 gauge shell in the quiet of the night.

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    62. From a woman’s perspective, I think the 10/22 is a great SHTF gun. From the man-stopper point of view, it is weak, but it is a gun women can handle and could actively participate in a defensive situation. It’s not the BEST, but it is FAST, and it’s IN THE GAME. Ladies, check out today’s post on my blog http://www.salvationandsurvival.com.

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    63. Satori says:

      a Ruger 10/22 with a 25 round mag?

      I wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end

      you could turn someone into a colander real quick !

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    64. Vince W. says:

      I highly recommend everyone interested in ballistics and what caliber they should own read this study….It’s fascinating and enlightening:

      http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

      Merry Christmas!

      Vince

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    65. MM2nuke says:

      The gun you have is better than the one you wish you had.
      In a shtf crisis, the .22 will be a primary FOOD collecting tool, training tool and LAST for defense.
      Now a 22 is lethal but I prefer to put my target down not just wounded and pissed off. My kids train with a 22 and hunt small game for dinner but I have 9mm carbines for them if shtf. Using handloaded 147gr cast bullets they will do the job at 100 yards and farther with 115HP. Low recoil for them and with reloading they cost about as much as 22lr.
      They practice with them at grandpas prarie dog pasture and hit 8 of 10 shots.

      Having a gun and being comfortable with it is important, but having one just to have it make one more a liability than an asset. Just like the guy I witnessed a few days ago, 150 pounds with a 338 lapua sight it in at 50 yards on a rest, recoil sled, and shoulder harness. He fired 6 rounds, turned himself into a taco, complained about the recoil even using the sled, and all to carry this howitzer for whitetail deer.
      It was pretty, expensive, and others couldn’t afford it so Mr banker got it, I pray he learned from his experience, sells the gun and gets something affordable, uses common ammo, and has lighter recoil.
      If not I’m sure mr bad guy will allow him the half hour to set up his shooting bench so he can shoot. “stand still so I can hit you in the 3 degree arc my rest gives me so my rifle doesn’t break my shoulder”

      My advice, get things that are practical, use common ammo, has reasonable recoil, and are multiple purpose. 308, 223, 30-06, 9MM, 357, 38, 40 S&W, etc. 12 and 20Ga for shotguns

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    66. dlb says:

      I’m retired law enforcement.Seen all types of wounds. yes, a .22 does not always penetrate enough to kill or stop an aggressor, but I’ve seen the same with .357, .45,etc. Factors such as angle of penetration,thickness of clothing and condition of ammunition come into play.My advice, if all you have is a .22, practice and be very good with it. If you have a .45 and can’t hit with it, sell it, swallow your pride and find the weapon you can hit with and practice. A hit with a .22 short is more lethal than a six misses with .44 magnum.

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    67. dlb says:

      Other thoughts: no handgun is a better than a shotgun or rifle in a fight, but you have to fight with what you have with you. Gun fights like fist fights are not survived by size and strength, but by the attitude and fortitude of the combatants. Mental readiness is more important than choice of weapon.

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    68. big dee two twenty three says:

      you can kill the biggest bear with a 22 rifle if you can put the bullet where you want . and shot many a deer with a 22 rifle with one shot . navy seal team six lost a gadillion dollar helicopter to get a guy that was allready dead maybee if ron paul could get rid of the african we wont really need to figure any of this crap out . do not renig in 2012 and darn you if you dont vote for ron paul

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