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    Want to know what police and fire might do in SHTF?

    Mac Slavo
    June 4th, 2011
    SHTFplan.com
    Comments (287)
    Read by 441 people

    We’ve regularly discussed emergency response when the SHTF and have generally come to the conclusion that when the time comes that you need help, it won’t be available.

    This latest story from California highlights how austerity measures are already having an impact on Americans’ lives, and it’s only going to get worse.

    Residents of Alameda, Calif., an island city just east of San Francisco, are demanding answers after a man drowned at a city beach in full view of police and fire personnel.

    Witnesses say an apparently distraught Raymond Zack, 53, paced back and forth along the beach just before noon on Memorial Day. He then waded into the frigid San Francisco Bay.

    Zack stood about 50 yards offshore in neck-deep water for about an hour before his head disappeared below the water. Police and firefighters who had responded to a 911 call about the suicide attempt stood onshore watching and making no attempt to rescue or even contact Zack.

    Interim Alameda Fire Chief Mike D’Orazi said a 2009 policy forbids firefighters from trying to rescue people in the water.

    “Previously we had a very highly trained water-rescue program that we could use for both shore-based and boat-and-surf water rescue,” he said. “But unfortunately, over the course of several years based on what I gather on budget issues, they pretty much decertified the program.”

    Reader Jim, who submitted this story to us, had this to say:

    It could very well depend on what policies and training they have had, or want to certify.  In this very case a 93 man City Fire Department had its personnel in place for some 40 minutes, and did nothing to save a man killing himself a slow death.  There were apparently police officers present who did nothing as well.  In fact the NPR report cited says they never even tried to reach the man or communicate with him.  A volunteer waded into the 54 degree water alone to recover the man’s body once in floated to the top.  A fire department could not even do that.

    This should give pause for those of you planning to “bug in” when SHTF.  Just how much protection can you count on from your local police and fire?  In this case a fire department spokesman said they didn’t have the equipment or training.  Do you think they have what it takes to handle a mob?  Or how about a gang setting a block of houses on fire.  My guess is the police might bug out before you do if SHTF.

    If you do decide to bug in, or even bug out, when it hits the fan, you must be fully prepared to manage emergencies on your own or within your local neighborhood and community. This includes food supplies, clean water, medical care and personal defense.

    FEMA, on their preparedness web site, recommends that every family have at least two weeks worth of food and water. They fail to mention medical supplies (including antibiotics) because they may be under the impression that a localized disaster response can be organized within fourteen days.

    Our view: Expect the unexpected. Region-wide or nationwide disaster planning is in order here. Rather than two weeks, plan on months without any outside assistance. Emergency personnel, as Jim mentioned, will probably be the first to bug out – they have families too and will see the writing on the wall before most other people do. Those emergency responders who do stick around will likely be deployed in support of military actions like riot response.

    Please Spread The Word And Share This Post
        name:     email:        details

    Author: Mac Slavo
    Views: Read by 441 people
    Date: June 4th, 2011
    Website: www.SHTFplan.com

    Copyright Information: Copyright SHTFplan and Mac Slavo. This content may be freely reproduced in full or in part in digital form with full attribution to the author and a link to www.shtfplan.com. Please contact us for permission to reproduce this content in other media formats.

     

    287 Comments...

    Vote: Click here to vote for SHTF Plan as a Top Prepper Web Site
    1. Gods Creation says:

      These are supposed to be the best Men available, the heros. Yet not one of them would lift a finger to help this guy because the corporation did not authorize it or train them for it?

      Each and every one of the corp officers on the scene should be ashamed of themselves. They blame it on the corp because they themselves are no longer Men.

      The sad thing is that is the best the corp has to offer. I can only imagine that the worst would have gotten in a boat and held the guys head underwater for him.

      Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • T.W. says:

        AMEN!

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      • Well said, GC, Well said.

        It seems that one of them would have stripped off the snakelike skin of the corporation to become a man or woman again long enough to attempt a rescue.

        Had I been there, NOBODY would have stopped me. Nobody. I would have said, “SCREW YOU! I’m going in!” and faced whatever consequences later. No human just stands there and doesn’t try SOMETHING. What would I have to say at the judgment seat for that inaction? How embarrassed they must be. …or cowardly.

        And, you’re right, GC, the worst they have to offer holds The People’s heads underwater. These people will have to report their deeds. Ulitimately, everyone will. Try to have no regrets.

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        • Gunner64 says:

          I am an emergency responder (police) and doubt I or anyone I work with could have just stood there and watched. On the other hand, we all know what happens when a rescue swimmer tries to grab hold of a drowning person. That person will try to climb over you to get to air, which is why single person rescuers run the serious risk of being drowned themselves. Are you willing to die for a person who is intentionally trying to kill themselves?

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      • seventh day soldier says:

        This is an absolute shame. I work in law enforcement and sometimes I wish I didn’t, but there are some of us that really do try and serve the public without oppressing anyone. I would have thrown my job away to try and save this man and I know a lot of other officers that would have too. Unfortunately, the BS that comes from California seems to spread to the rest of the states; hopefully there are still some people in law enforcement that care about the citizenry that they are sworn to protect.

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        • Jim says:

          Great for you and the others. I’d go to bat for an officer or firemen that tried.

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        • Odd Questioner says:

          Ditto what Jim said. If a policeman or fireman clearly tried to do the right thing in my sight, and his department tried to bork him over for it? I’d go out of my way to testify on his behalf, and even chip in for a lawyer.

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      • PO'dpatriot says:

        What’s in it for me? Cut me a check! (sarcasm)

        Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • Sheldon Plankton says:

        And don’t forget who eventually swam out and recovered the body: a 20-year-old civilian girl!!! She had more balls and skill than the entire Alameda Fire Dept., who should be terminated and deported to Shitsville.

        Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        • REB says:

          And this is why when TSHTF the so called civilians will hand them their sorry backsides…even our girls have more cahoonas than these tax-extortion supported losers!

          Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        • JOJODANCER says:

          I doubt the civilian female had more “balls” than the entire AFD. If the order given by the engine company officer was not to enter the water, those members of the company had to obey. We dont know the facts or what dispatch advised to the responding units.Standing orders and dept policy,sometimes a reflection of a past response to a similar call, are to be followed. We dont know the facts.

          It does look bad, and I would bet thers more to the issue than we are let on to believe. If your not on the job or have worked in emergeny response, its hard to get accross or explain to a lay person how sometimes operational porcedures are the way they are for a reason.

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      • sean says:

        and what happens if the cop or firefighter dies or gets hurt trying to save the guy,thats right the politicians will say we aint paying his family because you didnt follow our procedure.can you blame them, its sad but thats what will happen!

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        • JANE says:

          That’s very true SEAN.

          Damed if you do and damed if you don’t.
          _______________

          The system is designed by Lawyers.
          The system is writen by Lawyers.
          The system is run by Lawyers.

          When I say lawyers, I mean Dream-Team Lawyers.

          .

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        • Anonymous says:

          Didn’t he already make up his mind that death is sweeter than life?Why stop him at all? We will all die eventually. Must be the fear that causes everyone to rush to stop a person wanting to checkout.

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      • Moco says:

        It is like these moron mountain climbers. Why should I pay taxes for rescues of dipshits that do risky stuff.
        If they do not have the training for water rescue and guy is wanting to off himself, why bother risking your ass to save him.
        THese drama seekers want one last attention grab in front of a audience. And where was water patrol?

        Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • doctorcop says:

        As a police officer in a crappy area of Sacramento, I am appalled at what occurred, but also understand the police and fire response. In california, I am liable both criminally and civilly for ANY deviation from Department guidelines. If my department is stupid/ignorant/uncaring/etc. I am certainly not going to sacrifice my family’s welfare by breaking the rules. I already have to risk my life while understaffed and under- equipped, and i feel no need to risk more. For those that say “you chose that profession” I agree, but i didn’t chose to be in at least one fight a WEEK where somebody is grabbing at my gun because there are too many criminals released early from prison and constant officer positions being dropped due to state financial mismanagement. If the general public knew how few officers were patrolling their region, there would be riots against the government.

        Before criticizing the safety workers, just remember there is always somebody in power waiting to find a “worker bee” to use as an example. I can only hope the other states are not as bad as california.

        Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • John says:

        hey GC, one question, when was the last time you risked your life and the lively hood of your family to save the life of a man that doesn’t want to live? Very easy to throw stones…
        Here’s an easy one for all the “keyboard patriots”, when was the last time you gave money or food to a homeless guy? That’s giving away a lot less than your life and lively hood…but I guess that only a person in uniform has that responsibility…
        public safety personnel are sued, injured or die everyday, how many of you have donated to their legal fund or to their families? Easy to type how you would support them, try following through. HOW MANY KEYBOARD PATRIOTS HAVE DONATED MONEY TO THE FAMILIES OF THE TWO FIRE FIGHTERS THAT DIED IN CALIFORNIA???

        Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    2. Dr. Prepper says:

      If it would cost me my union job, cushy benefits, retirement pension and affordable medical premiums; plus the status of being a career fireman or a police officer in one of the most politically-charged, affirmative-action-driven occupational environments on the planet(the BAY AREA)I wouldn’t have helped the guy either.

      They should all get medals for overcoming their intrinsic human instinct to sacrifice onself to save others in favor of preserving their own jobs.

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    3. Gods Creation says:

      One more thing I forgot to mention are the witnesses who ALSO let it happen. That only goes to prove that they are also well trained corp members incapable of acting on their own to protect their fellow Man.

      If someone could wade out into the water to retrieve the body, someone could have gone out while he was still alive.

      It shows that every one of the witnesses relies totally on the corp when help is needed. The good news is they will converge on city hall and the police stations when things get bad. The corp will not be able to hunt down anyone and abuse them because they will be dealing with all the sheep they created who can’t act on their own and herd up around them.

      And I think to myself, what a wonderful world.

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      • Odd Questioner says:

        “One more thing I forgot to mention are the witnesses who ALSO let it happen.”

        Indeed… or they could have been ordered to stay out of it by the fire department.

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        • Anonymous says:

          Or they have families and responsibilities and knew that if they got in trouble trying to save this guy (who wanted to die and probably would fight you to stay out there!) there would be no one to save them. Self preservation is not always a bad thing and does not always make you a sheep or a bad person. This site is dedicated to those self preservers. Are you packing enough food and gear for every person that is in your neighborhood and everyone who floods out is the city you’re near in order to ‘save’ them all. No?
          P.S. Not trying to attack you just trying to add perspective.

          Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

          • “Are you packing enough food and gear for every person that is in your neighborhood and everyone who floods out is the city you’re near in order to ‘save’ them all.”

            Thats a bit different. If someone asks, I will not turn them away. They need a bed? They need a place to stay? They need some food? They need protection? If I got it, I’ll give it even if I have to cut my own in half.

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          • Odd Questioner says:

            Understood, but the two don’t connect. It isn’t hard to calculate the odds and taking the chance based on them.

            Let’s look at the situation. You have:

            - EMTs with training and at least equipment to treat hypothermia.

            - Firemen with ropes.

            The rest indicates that you could demand a long enough rope, explain your plan quickly, and at least try to get a friend to go out with you.

            It’s a whole different story, since it’s largely tactical, while prepping for SHTF is largely strategic.

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          • Sheldon Plankton says:

            There’s a massive difference between prepping for everyone in your neighborhood and getting a little wet to save a drowning human being. You seem to be justifying cowardice — you’d make a great Alameda Fireman.

            Rate This Comment: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

          • MailOrderZombie says:

            Why SHOULD anyone save him? I’m sure we don’t have all the facts here. Was this story verified? Maybe we should look it up and see just what DID occur. That’s really the only problem I have with this site- it’s awfully quick to put law enforcement personnel in a bad light. Alot of the people who comment here think they are Billy Badass and don’t need cops, and all cops do is shoot/ beat people and abuse their power. Then why are you all suddenly outraged that they all ‘stood by’ (supposedly) while this wingnut off’d himself? I swear, for people who claim to hate the nanny state mentality- you sure are offended all of the sudden. I say let the guy die! He’s whacked in the head, he wants to kill himself, LET HIM!! One less loose cannon nutjob in the world.

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    4. Jim says:

      Ok, think this way…there is an idiot who wants to die and he is in deep water, you do not have any life-saving equipment at hand, only the option to swim out and try to drag him in.

      He will drag you down with him, guaranteed! all he has to do is wrap around you and then you are useless.

      There is no way in Hell I would have even thought about going out there to get this guy.

      Just because you are trained to do something does not mean the training will work in every situation.

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      • 11 Bravo says:

        Correct. The guy would have moved further out or taken somebody down with him… This was a suicide, not a child needing help, or a swimmer with cramps….
        I wouldnt have gone after him either….

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      • Tony says:

        This is BS – Once a person is in the late stages of Hypothermia they poise little risk of fighting off anyone. They lose control of all muscle function very quickly. This guy should not have died out there… it is as simple as that.

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        • PO'dpatriot says:

          Granted Tony, but the rescuer would only have approx ten minutes in that water before he would labor from hypothermia. Also how far from shore was he? Even if the guy couldn’t fight, you still have to drag him back to shore. BTW, Im not giving the fire department a free pass.

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          • Sheldon Plankton says:

            Do yourself a favor and Google “Lenny Skutnik,” so you know what a real man does when confronted by a drowning human and a little cold water.

            Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        • MailOrderZombie says:

          I guess he wouldn’t have if YOU had been a bystander.

          Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • Spirit of '76 says:

        Hey you know, they have these things now… they are called …

        BOATS.

        Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • Sheldon Plankton says:

        Chickenshit.

        Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • Jim says:

        You could at least swim out to within 10 ft and try to talk him in. No attempt = manslaughter in some states. Fire the police officers and fire men. They are worth less.

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    5. emptyhandkiller says:

      Another great, and true, article Mac. The harsh truth is that I don’t blame the police and firefighters at the scene. Would any of you want to wade out there, only to have the nutcase wrestle and try to drown you? I believe that we are far too easy on mentally deranged and violent people as it is. Now, with all the countless people on every anti-depressant and drug, I sure wouldn’t want to be in either profession. Their dangerous job is only going to get worse.

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      • Odd Questioner says:

        Give me a second guy and a long rope, and it could be done. The guy can’t wrestle two rescuers under, and fight off hypothermia to do it all at the same time. He would’ve been too weak to resist by the time I got all that together and got out there anyway.

        Yup – the water is only 50 degrees, but if there’s 100 firefighters out there, odds were almost perfect that there were EMTs trained to deal with hypothermia in the crowd.

        Not trying to play the tough guy at all, but this isn’t rocket science.

        To be honest, it’s the attitude you (and others) have expressed that is a big reason why civilization is going down the crapper in the first place. Everyone is all too eager to not give a crap about his fellow human being.

        Yes, you should take care of yourself, but that’s not where one’s moral duty ends.

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        • I agree full heartedly….just think what these type of preppers will be like in a SHTF scenario. Gopd’s judgement on mankind is soooooo deserved. These people will probably be like the ones in “The Road” that were keeping people in their basement for lunch

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        • Anonymous says:

          i’m an ocean lifeguard and a reserve firefighter in orange county, this is a tough one for me because on the water rescue side of things, 50 degree water is cold, but totally manageable and we train in it all the time (throw on a wetsuit if need be). Also people do wrestle you down, but its not that hard to fight off as a trained waterman and i now that there were boats close enough. but on the other hand, working for a fire department i know that the policies and procedures are strict and with consequence if not followed and i understand that it is against policy to enter the water. Rock and a hard spot for sure, but knowing that i’m, fully capable and knowhing this person will die if action isnt taken, I’m leaning toward swimming out and at least talking to him and then gettin him as soon as he goes under. Piece of cake.

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    6. Charlie says:

      They didn’t even make an attempt to throw a rope or form a human chain? They didn’t even attempt to talk to him? I guess it’s only a matter of time before they turn suicides into a reality show so people can watch it from home and call in to vote. Seems like society itself is committing suicide.

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      • Steve says:

        When I heard about this I talked to alot of people that I have as customers and was amazed at their callous non-feeling for this man. It wasn’t until I asked them “what if that was your husband,brother or father” did they get it. A moment of depression takes away all future? These FIRST RESPONDERS should be fired!!! They are basically saying WE NEED MORE MONEY. They are making decisions of death if you don’t pay them more money. This type of humanity is sick, very sick. This is the attitude of police and fire and all public servants. We owe them! HA!

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    7. P.O.'d in A.O. says:

      At the risk of sounding totally compassionless, the man obviously wanted to die. It’ called “Social Darwinism”. I certainly wouldn’t risk my life to save someone who is determined to end theirs.

      Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    8. Lan says:

      Police protect their corporate masters and the machine, what part of that don’t you people understand?

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      • MailOrderZombie says:

        I don’t understand ANYTHING about your rediculous comment. Please explain it to me. WHO is my corporate master? And what the HELL is the machine? I’d like to know who I’m serving!
        I think it’s thrown off people like you, making wacked out comments like that one, that cause the rest of society not to take these sites and the people who hang out here seriously.

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    9. The realist says:

      I’m searching for the tragedy here. Some guy who feels his life is so bad, he’s so down trodden depressed that there is no way out. Nothing he can do to change or alter his life. Oh woe is he!
      So he wades out into the ocean in front of 10′s 100′s of people all watching in amazement not a single one of them offering to help except to call that number which is supposed to bring help. Trained professionals who are there to help us. Well folks this is what we’ve become as a society. Doing our best not to get involved! Where does it say that the police and Fire/rescue professionals are required to help? NO WHERE! The fact is the police are there to enforce the laws. Which if in the process of doing so they protect you, thwart or stop nefarious people from doing you harm it’s an add on! The protect @ serve tag line is just that. Marketing! The fire deparent is a paid service provided to you by your city or county and no where does it say they have to do anything! Think of the law suits after a disaster when they can’t possibly respond to all emergencies! Reality is; you, me, WE are responsible for ourselves and those we love or triage into any particular moment! The depressed guy made his choice, no one else should ne injured or killed to save anyone who has no regard for their own life!
      It’s your choice, weigh the outcome of any thing you do!

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    10. You assholes are fricking pathetic pieces of shit! You selfish spinelss pussies! You don’t know his story and to sit in judgement of him and think that way is part of what’s wrong with America today./ Everybody inclluding me wants to piss and moan all the time on here about the govt and rightfully so, but most of us are part of the problem too and sort of responsible….so you bastards that think badly of this man who obviously had some problems, where maybe he felt as if he had already drowned in the sea of life, and he got what he deserved and wouldn’t of helped him either…you can justify it all you want with your “reasoning” of “he wanted to die”, “he wasn’t a child”, “he would of pulled my wimpy ass down with him” your pathetic and shouldn’t call yourself a man or even a human being for that matter. I hope you live to regret your words.

      Sorry for the rant and the language….POS like that need an old fashion ass kicking

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      • emptyhandkiller says:

        Hey, BJ… Too bad you weren’t there to wade out and hug him and lead him in prayer, and eventually bring him to safety! If he didn’t kill you first. Why not become a cop or firefighter… After a few years of having stones thrown at you, called ugly names while doing your job, then let’s see how much of a caring and superior being you would be. Cops and firefighters all over the country are sick and tired of the nutcases and scumbags they meet daily. Believe me, I know that situation intimately.

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        • Spirit of '76 says:

          Oh I don’t know.

          It wasn’t all that long ago I jumped into a flooded, swift-water river and swam to the other side to help pull a man out who was within minutes of death … a mere few minutes after dragging my own ass out after our boat was swamped and capsized.

          And I wouldn’t take a loser dot-gov job if you gave it to me. Hell around here, our firemen are VOLUNTEERS.

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          • DaveyBoy says:

            I’ve saved a drowning person (in a cold river) too, and I’ve also had to drag someone several hundred yards who got stuck on a sand bar in Lake Tahoe. Sure people can be dangerous, but not for long in cold water, as they seize up.

            There are excuses a plenty. Since being a police officer or fireman is neither dangerous, nor heroic (Carpenters, for one example, have a more dangerous job, and I appreciate having a house to live in and everything else carpenters do, far more than and “Officer” or Fireman), I think they just need to be fired. If civilians have to do the work themselves, there’s no reason to pay people to stand around on the beach and do nothing.

            What a bunch of freeloading leeches. No thanks!

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        • Gods Creation says:

          “Cops and firefighters all over the country are sick and tired of the nutcases and scumbags they meet daily”

          For the cops, I would think that the vast majority of those “scumbags” were minding their own business when they were confronted. Anyone who tries to protect their rights or themselves is a scumbag in the eyes of the corp and its goons.

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          • DaveyBoy says:

            Spot on GC. You are absolutely corect.

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          • REB says:

            …. youre right…. its wonder they didnt get a long range tazer and shoot him with it…how dare he kill himself…we will do it for free!
            If he’d done this on land or within easy reach they’d of tazed him,knocked him to the ground while beating him with clubs and doing half-nelsons on him after getting the cuffs on they would have accidently shot him in the back of the head after mistaking their sidearm for a bandage,in a way he got off easy.(dripping sarcasim) :(

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      • Ben Dover says:

        You also have to consider what becomes of YOUR family if you die.

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    11. Shreela says:

      I don’t remember the circumstances, or even the exact country, but about 1-2 years ago, some rescue type professional lost his job because he went beyond his approved training to save a life – I think it was something on a cliff, and I don’t think it was a suicide, but maybe a Darwin thing.

      The story generated numerous comments from quite a few countries about how low-down the man’s bosses were for firing a hero, but I believe a spokesperson for the man’s former job said something like they had lost lawsuits in the past from surviving family members after losing their family member, due to not having such and such training. So in order to not go broke being sued by family members of their rescue-employees, they had to strictly enforce the no-training/no-rescue policy.

      As strongly as I reacted upon first reading the Euro-rescue hero losing his job for saving a life, if what their spokesperson was saying about being sued by family members was true, then I can’t really blame them, for how can they continue to afford salaries and equipment if they’re constantly sued. Ideally every force would have at least 1-2 people trained in every situation, but how long has it been since the world’s been ideal and had enough money to train their people?

      And I agree with some of the other commenters, this guy was suicidal and there’s a good chance he might have taken one of the people down with him. Had it been an accidental drowning, I’m guessing the story might have been different, despite lack of training.

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      • Steve says:

        Maybe if the first responders were not paid $150,000-$225,000 a year…..maybe we could afford to train them to do a job they are paid to do already!!!! The saving your fellow man thing should be ingrained in all of us, but it has turned into something you must pay for. Sad.

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        • mikeawesome says:

          Where the hell do first responders make this much?? I work 80 hrs a week and can barely pay my bills soon the job and multiple part time ones…maybe its just the east coast

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          • Odd Questioner says:

            California tends to pay their first responders a *lot* better than most in places like San Francisco, LA, and such.

            It’s probably the only way they can entice folks to do the job there *and* live close enough to avoid an hour-long commute to work.

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      • Sheldon Plankton says:

        Yeah, if it’s going to cost you anything, it’s better to just let people die.

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    12. A Dodgy Bloke says:

      I’m with Doctor Prepper and Jim on this one. Suicide is a very selfish act not caring about the grief and devastation of those left behind. I have a family member who was planning on offing herself. Luckily she got help in time.
      On the Police and Fire not being there if the SHTF, or there is a gradual deterioration of services, and no National Guard or military to keep order. If that happens you have much bigger long-term problems than people burning your city down, and rape and mayhap in the streets. If you’re still there and not somewhere in the boonies you’re just hosed pure and simple.

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    13. The realist says:

      BJ, I make no judgement of this man. I firmly believe it’s his choice just like yours or mine to exit this life any time we decide to. Just do it quietly with dignity, and don’t hurt anyone else.
      How many times have you risked your life to save someone who is not grateful for you doing so or is willing to take you with them?

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      • Sheldon Plankton says:

        It’s called “depression.” It’s a major mental illness. It really fucks up your grip on reality, and makes everything seem horrible and bleak. The kicker is, it is usually very easily treated with meds nowadays. He didn’t make any rational decision to end his life; he was desperate and couldn’t take the pain anymore. Whether or not the depressed dude would have thanked you is irrelevent. His mother certainly would have thanked you for saving her son’s life. Have a friggin’ ounce of compassion, man.

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    14. jeejoe says:

      you know what, this article is absolutely right. If the SHTF, and you swim out into the ocean to drown yourself, the fire department and police will probably not do anything to try and save you.

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    15. Odd Questioner says:

      Wow… does nobody think for themselves anymore?

      * was there not a boat relatively nearby that someone could commandeer?

      * Certainly two guys and a very long rope (tied to shore) could have walked out there from one side. By the time they got to him, the victim would have been hypothermic and weak enough that he wouldn’t have been able to fight off rescue. Hypothermia also has a big symptom of tunnel vision, which means the victim wouldn’t even have seen someone coming in many cases. In 50-degree water, you only need wait for 3-5 minutes and it starts setting in.

      I mean, damn – it’s not the attitude so much, it’s the lack of intelligence in that particular FD that scares the crap out of me. I mean, seriously, they need *training* to use their heads?

      ~~~

      On the article. Yup – I figure the cops will have bugged out, or would be busy protecting their own families. See also Katrina.

      OTOH, I don’t see roving gangs setting fire to much of anything. Even the most rabid, drooling, and tattooed among them know some basic facts: without a fire department, that fire will spread and burn down their own digs if nearby, and that the fire will meanwhile burn down supplies/resources that they might want or need.

      Just opinion, but I suspect there’s a few things about gangs that most folks miss out on:

      * They actually need a working overall society to survive. Money and a steady supply of new junkies are pretty vital towards keeping a gang supplied. Without money, what do they have?

      * that SHTF situation which disrupts grocery shipments will also disrupt the flow of drugs from the south. Sure, short-term there will still be plenty of drugs to sell (again, see Katrina), but as SHTF grinds on, that flow will pretty much cease. A few drugs (meth, marijuana) can be home-cooked/grown, but only ‘weed’ is going to be viable in a long-term SHTF or in TEOTWAWKI. (before you say it, Meth requires pseudo ephedrine and a cocktail of chemicals – good luck finding any of that after about six months.)

      * The majority of gang members don’t own a gun, and most of those who do don’t know how to use one at any range beyond point-blank. The majority of those guns are either handguns or (in rare cases) small submachine guns. This may change post-SHTF, but not by much as ammunition starts running out.

      * gang bangers live and die by intimidation. If they don’t have that factor, they will go look for easier victims.

      Ah, but I’ve rambled on too long… :)

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      • that’s what I was thinking in response to wimps being skeerd to go alone……two guys could of went and got him….knock him out if you have to.

        In Katrina many were going door to door taking peoples guns, police and the Guard. So in a SHTF scenario, I am way more worried about people in uniform than I am civilians

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        • It is my right to decide my fate says:

          SIR!!
          WE ARE HERE TO SAVE YOU, sooo>>> BAM!!!!!!!
          YOU PUNCH HIM RIGHT IN THE FACE TO KNOCK HIM OUT,
          oh yeah, great idea.

          You people jobs thinking a person wanting to die is a sin are wrong. MAYBE!!! JUST FKN MAYBE!!! If the government would stay out of our lives, and allow products to be marketed where a person can quietly and painlessly move on, then this incident could have been avoided… but then what would all you “wanna be heros” talk about then.

          The government raided and shut down an old lady selling painless suidice helium kits last. Next week they have 2 people scheduled to be put to death using the death penalty, yeah that makes a lot of sense.

          Why is it tha tonly the governmant can put people to death, while outlawing people from deciding their own fate.

          btw-
          did everyone see the crazy cop story of the day?

          http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/06/02/v-fullstory/2248396/witnesses-said-they-were-forced.html

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          • Odd Questioner says:

            You know what’s funny? There are a large number of folks who had attempted suicide in the past, but managed to get help, and eventually found an unbreakable love for life. I happen to be related to one. Her past was totally different from what became and is yet to be her future.

            Suicide is most often decided by individuals whose capacity to reason is altered, and is almost always not made by a clear, *rational* mind.

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        • Just sayin says:

          “”knock him out if you have to””

          really? knock him, drug him, put him in jai, maybe give him the death penalty, kill that dumb, that’ll show him how wronmg it is to try to kill your self.

          This site makes me wonder more and more questions.

          for instance,

          1) If so many peole (posters here) are convinced society in US will collapse and they will then head for the hills and live an Amish life style, then why wait? why not go live that life now? what are you waitng for?

          2)And again I ask.
          WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE LIFE? What is the purpose?

          When it “feels” like this is wasting time, why not move on?, esp if a person is broke, has no family and is not interested in starting a new fkg crappy job just to survive. ESP if that person has NEVER mooched off the governemnt, not even unemployement benifits, even if they paid into it.

          How fkn old should people live to be? How long does a human have to live to be before it is perfectly accpetable to say, “enough is enough, time to move on”??

          ps
          only “funny thing” I read here is how some people quote the bible, and say it is a sin to “move on”, and then in their next post that same person has no qualms saying they would happily pump hot lead into another other person, killing them.

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          • Odd Questioner says:

            “…what are you waitng for?”

            Some of us are already taking steps to make that happen, though your statement is a rather bad premise.

            (the bad premise being that “so many people here” are praying for civilization to go down the crapper. Truth is, that number is rather few at best. Otherwise, how does one explain our collective presence on the Internet?)

            Personally, I hope to God that civilization doesn’t go under. The time it would take to recover would be horrendous, and likely last for millennia. Want an example? Look at the distance of time between the Vandal sack of Rome and the Renaissance. While you’re there, look at just how far down the septic tank an average person living in the Dark Ages sat. Now imagine how long it would take folks at our present stage of civilization, post-TEOTWAWKI, to get back to even a medieval state of technology. I figure it would take at least 500-1000 years, or twice as long as it took Western Europe, post Rome, to reach it.

            Sucks, really.

            “WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE LIFE?”

            As soon as you find out, let the rest of know, okay?

            “How fkn old should people live to be?”

            I sincerely hope that no one authoritatively arrives at an answer to that question.

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    16. VRF says:

      And if he was saved, and he was serious about taking his own life, then he would have suceeded sooner or later.
      people who want to end it, need to be left alone. its their choice who are we to tell them any different.

      On the note of being able to TCB for ones self, yep, better prep for it, have more medical supplies then your normal home first aid, and remember sometimes playing hero to a person who isnt wanting to stay alive can get you killed.

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    17. Rachel says:

      number one rule is your own safety. and if they were never trained to do the rescue it’s the fault of the department not the men standing there. if they were never trained to go into the water to save someone they will certainly not go into the water to get the body.

      most likely the department was calling out mutual aid looking for a department trained for water rescue.

      look for more cuts in more training too the point where we have no real department in the near future.

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      • Spirit of '76 says:

        You sound like a WWII-era Kraut, “Ja wohl, mein herr!”

        Nothing personal — just sayin.

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      • Plain Old American says:

        It is simply not possible to think out each and every scenario that a cop or fireman may find themselves in and to properly “train” them. How about we hire good, smart individuals and pay them to think and act as they deem necessary to protect human life?

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      • Sheldon Plankton says:

        With courageous citizens like you, who needs pieces of chickenshit? You better hope you never need help in the waters off Alameda. However, if you’re ever drowning in the Delaware River and I see you, I’ll dive in and save you or die trying. We can talk about your shitty attitude toward your fellow humans after we’ve made it safely to shore.

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    18. GoneWithTheWind says:

      I have mixed feelings about this. I am a decent swimmer but I’m 67. If this had been a child or women who was simply in over their head I might well go in and try to save them. But a man who was committing suicide!! No way. You would be at great risk to do so. Now, admittedly our public safety people have different responsibilities but if no one there had the right equipment or training to “rescue” a combative fully grown man from deep water then they should not attempt it. This should require a minimum of two men with cold water swimming gear and training. Even then if the man was committed to fight and die out there the end result would probably be the same.

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      • Sheldon Plankton says:

        How do you know he was committing suicide? Looks to me like standing in neck deep water for an hour is more like a cry for attention and help. He probably only became suicidal after he saw all those people standing on the beach enjoying the show.

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        • Ben Dover says:

          I have always heard that if someone really wants to commit suicide, by the time anyone knows of the attempt it is usually too late and a person threatening suicide is crying for help.

          The water temperature made the choice for him.

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    19. Gods Creation says:

      As I read the comments on this thread it is clear there are only two schools of thought.

      Either the guy asked for it and had it coming or the officers acted in the most terrible way imaginable by failing to do what they are well paid to do.

      It is understandable that the vast majority of the onlookers would not want to get involved. They had paid servants there to do it for them. The “rescue” officers did nothing, so that must have been the limit of actions for everybody else too.

      Here is the bigger problem. There was not one single soul there who acted as a Man is supposed to act towards their fellow men. Without fail, every single onlooker acted with a disregard for life.

      However despondent the guy was, and whatever his troubles, has no real bearing on the issue. It is a matter of many men refusing to help the one that needed it. If you walked into a room and found someone who OD’d themselves, would you not be obligated as a human being to try to save the life?

      There was not a single person there who would stand up and lead, as a Man and a human being, in the rescue of a fellow man. The fact that many of them were actually being paid to do it does not offset the reality that those who were not being paid still lacked the human instincts required in a civil society.

      It says a lot about where society is and where it is likely to go from here.

      The corporation wants you to prefer being a part of it to being a Man with moral responsibilities to his fellow inhabitants of Earth. It appears it has accomplished that goal.

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      • NOYB says:

        What is the other side of the coin for this guy? What if he HAD been rescued? You can bet that all those LEO’s would have rushed to “do their job” and arrested him for a dozen different violations. Then on top of his emotional strife, he and his family would be bankrupted with legal fees. Don’t forget the bill he would receive for the “cost” of all those responders standing around for an hour.

        Rescued or not, it was already a no-win for the guy. Perhaps as it turned out, his family could grieve and move on rather than having to fight a system designed to ruin you whenever possible.

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        • Odd Questioner says:

          Point of order: Usually, folks who try to commit suicide are not sent to jail or fined, but are ordered by the court to seek psychiatric help – especially if he caused no damage to others or to property.

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      • Plain Old American says:

        Very well stated.

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      • Ben Dover says:

        It is possible that bystanders were stopped from attempting rescue by the “professionals”.

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        • Sheldon Plankton says:

          It is. They should have ignored such “orders” and done the right thing.

          I wonder how long one might sit in jail after saving a drowning man when no cop or fireman would. Prolly about 5 minutes before the uproar overwhelmed them, then out you go!

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    20. I used to think that I’d like to meet many of the people on this site…..now I don’t think so…maybe just a few. Most of you make me sick and are the kind of men my father taught me to not respect. Hell I’d rather resort back to my old ways and just…..ahhh never mind, some of you ain’t worth the effort to walk across the street and spit on

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      • 11 Bravo says:

        I think we’re probably pretty decent, concerned folks here BJ……
        I think you are thinking of this case as a ‘rescue’, it is nothing of the kind. This is a tragedy for the dead guy and the family of the folks that try to go get him, cause he’ll drown them too.
        He took the decision to do this….thought about it on the drive over, while he paced the beach, then acted. He got the audience he wanted and did the deed….. I think he’s a p.o.s. …..

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        • Sheldon Plankton says:

          It’s great that you can diagnose a mentally ill person from such a distance, and determine that they “deserve” to die. You must be a psychiatrist!

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      • BJ – I totally agree with you on this one. As it says in the Bible, the very least you do unto them, you do unto me (I don’t have the exact quote) but you get the gist.

        This man is a human being. Whether or not he was trying to committ suicide is irrelevant. He’s still a human being. He’s someone’s dad, brother, son, etc.

        My daddy died when I was 11 and my brother was 6. I always missed having a dad around.

        No judgement on the other posters here but I feel those government workers lost their humanity for a brief period.

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      • emptyhandkiller says:

        BJ… “Resort to your old ways”? Wow, I bet you used to be a great big tough hombre, huh? What do you know about respect? All you do is name call and badmouth anyone who has disagreed with you. You don’t want to meet some of us in here? The feeling is more than mutual, pal. Big talker, I guarantee that if you were there, you would have quietly melted into the crowd until the guy drowned or you had to run home for supper.

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    21. Tomcat says:

      What a lot of you don’t seem to realize is this guy didn’t continue walking until he drowned, he stopped where he could still breathe.Subconsciously he most likely didn’t want to die and probably would not have resisted being saved, but what the hell, better him than you right.

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    22. MadMarkie says:

      As the economy gets worse, as conditions continue to deteriorate here in the US; you are going to see more and more people committing suicide.

      As far as I’m concerned; everyone in this society has to make their own informed decisions and ‘row-their-own-boat’. If an individual has made the decision to end their own life, you won’t catch me putting my own life at risk in an attempt to save them from themselves.

      I find myself interacting with police, FD and Sheriff’s Offficers on an almost daily basis, so I have a fair idea of how they think. You can’t pay someone enough money to deal with the complete assholes that they have to deal with each and every day. Yet they go out there and do it every time they put their uniform on.

      But when it comes down to a choice of wheather or not to stay home and protect their own family or go out there and try to protect a mostly ungrateful public ….. just who the hell to you think is going to win out on that argument?

      You need to be able to protect yourself and your family, ie. ‘row-your-own-boat’. If you can’t protect yourself ….. then don’t look for anyone else to do it for you.

      The more people that I meet ……. the better that I like my dog. Just my perception of the world that we live in.

      BOHICA boys & girls ……. real soon now! God Bless and good luck to all.

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    23. youcancallmeray says:

      no one dies before their time.

      everyone dies at their appointed time.

      jump off a bridge or vapor lock. that is your time.

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    24. PhoenixRising says:

      As someone who lives in Alameda, where this happened, I must say that most of the citizens are outraged at this tragedy. You want to know the best part? WE ARE AN ISLAND IN THE BAY SURROUNDED BY WATER! AND OUR FIRST RESPONDERS ARE NO LONGER TRAINED IN LAND/WATER RESCUES. We have a Coast Guard base just a few miles away. Said the water was too shallow for a boat and they couldn’t get a helicopter to fly over here which would have taken minutes. After two hours of the first responders and 75 citizens watching, it was a young WOMAN who finally dove into the water to drag the man’s body back to the beach.

      My guess is they’ll use this as an excuse to say they need more of our tax dollars to fund this needed training. I can’t wait until our public servants who aren’t serving the public’s best interest get a big wake up call when our tax dollars can no longer fund excessive salaries, their pensions, retirement benefits for themselves and their families. Some of their jobs are already on the chopping block. Maybe they’ll start doing a better job, be grateful they have one and stop being so self-righteous.

      As soon as I sell my mom’s house, I’m getting the heck out of this town and California, maybe even the country.

      My first post, but have been lurking for a year now. Thanks to all of you who care about our freedoms, prepping and sharing your experiences so that I may continue to educate myself.

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      • Spirit of '76 says:

        This almost makes me want to cry. And I’ve seen and been through a heluva lot in my life.

        You can imagine this man, “Good bye, cold cruel world… Does no one even care this much about me? Not even enough to yell, ‘Please don’t do this!’.”

        No wonder he went through with it. He truly was alone in this world.

        May the LORD God Almighty have mercy on those that stood and did nothing.

        Mene, mene, tekel parsin.

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      • PO'dpatriot says:

        Finally someone who weighed in with better information on the tragedy.

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      • Ben Dover says:

        I am guessing that all who had already been trained are not gone from the dept. Did the training evaporate?

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    25. Jackie says:

      First I was not there, so I am relying on what I have read in regards to this article.

      I believe someone, just one person could have gone out in the water and talked with the man AS he was walking out in the water saying he was going to kill himself or even when he was up to his neck in water (for 50+ minutes!), standing at arms length so he could not grab you. I believe he was crying for help doing what he did in front of so many people. I have learned when a person really wants to commit suicide, they do it with no one around so they can suceed … doesn’t everyone know that? Especially the police and fire dept., to say they lack the training is BS, to mean this is common sense. Those so called “responders” need to be fired and put real people who would be thankful to have a job and actual do the job. But I wonder about the other 75+/- people that were there, not one person moved to attempt to save this man, not one. What a sad, depressing representative of Alameda people, SF people, California people, humanity … hurts my heart. I kind of hope that those folks who made the decision not to attempt to help Zack constantly relive that moment in their dreams or just throughout their day/night. I hope that if they are ever in that situation again or somthing similar where they are tested again to see if they have compassion for their fellow man, they will act and help that person. Hopefully, Zack’s death will not be in vain, that those 75+/- people have learned something along with the rest of us.

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    26. Jeff says:

      Decide if you want to rescue a man that wants to kill himself only to sue you for stepping on his “civil rights”, then the police will arrest you for interfering with their “rescue” and placing yourself at risk.
      The FEMA standard used to be 72 hours and it has gone to 2 weeks. It won’t last that long when some local, state or federal appointed badged order-taker confiscates it for their use, arrests you as a hoardder and leaves your family totally open to the next gang to visit your home- while you aren’t there anymore to protect your family.
      Stay as far under the radar as possible- get some spray paint and use the same markers on the front of your home that the so called rescuers use when they have searched a home and found no one inside. Check the Katrina vids if you need to see the format of the markers.

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    27. The realist says:

      This topic has certainly brought out many thoughts and opinions. I see all of your points and agree with many of them. Reality is. Neither the Fire Department nor Police department are Required to do anything if it puts them in harms way. It is merely a byproduct of the job. The gentleman who has chosen to end his life in such a austentacious way wants the publicity & his brief moment of recognition. Why does he need to be rescued if this is what he wants to do?
      And 1 man can take down 2-3 people with him. You can’t save those who truly don’t want to be saved but you can easily become part of his exit strategy!

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    28. Jaz says:

      Glad i wont have u fuckers to help me out should i ever reach that point of desperation….what the hell is wrong with you people????? This isnt america anymore…its all about people sitting in front of their tv watching it happen live on the news. Get off your asses and wake up!!! Engage in real life.

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    29. SwampRat says:

      As a Firefighter, I can tell you that Liability and lawyers played a BIG PART in this. IF a Firefighter had gone out and made an attempt and drown himself, the city would NOT payout to his widow because he was “acting beyond his level of training”.
      People in the community drive by Fire Stations everyday and see us out polishing the trucks (maintaining your tax-funded investment) or playing basketball(required PT to keep us fit so we don’t have heart attacks on the job) and they bitch when we NEED to train or we NEED new or improved equipment. When budget time rolls around, we are the first to get our budget cut. I had to fight like hell just to get a new truck for my Department (mandated by the Feds and NEEDED! We were jump-starting the old one for calls!) They complained about costs (most of which was safety related things mandated by the Feds!) and really dragged me though the mud….only to get a truck that is not certified because of their unwillingness to give in.

      To make my point, I can see how and why this happened. I understand it. Please don’t think any less of the Firefighters. If given the chance, they would have gone out there. I have a feeling a few were wanting to do just that…….

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      • Sheldon Plankton says:

        “If given the chance”??? WTF??? Were they handcuffed to the pier? What more chance could they POSSIBLY have had? You need to get into a different line of work, coward.

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    30. Stealth says:

      Sorry kids but I’m with Mad Markie on this one. Being a Fire/Paramedic/National guard/combat vet I will tell you how a 20 year veteran of the fire service feels.
      For the most part 2/3rds of my calls are absolute crybaby bullshit.
      Keep in mind 9-11 was created for LIFE-LIMB-EYESIGHT-UNCONTROLLED BLEEDING.
      9-11 calls..
      Here’s a few for the record:
      a 12 YO male hurt ankle while skimboarding—-
      Many calls for jelly fish stings—-
      Anyone who faints—
      Too fat to get your ass off the toilet or bed—
      Electrical current “crackling” thought the high power lines—
      Taxi ride to the ER—and a thousand more. Real emergency calls get the demanded respect they deserve but do we know all the details yet or are we jumping to conclusions again?
      I have risked my life hundreds of times for complete strangers and been cursed and spit on for saving a couple of them and here you wanna sit behind your computer in your dry, safe little world and call those men out?
      You want action? get your asses out there and join up I hear your local FD and Army recruiter still needs “a few good men.”

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      • Stealth says:

        Oh yea if you think I’m gonna be answering your bullshit calls once the poo hits the whirl-i-gig you are sadly mistaken.

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      • Plain Old American says:

        Get a different job

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        • Sheldon Plankton says:

          Sure, I bet most first responders who save a person’s life are shit on by everyone, especially the person they saved. That’s what I’ve done every time I received help from them. I mean, those dirty bastards, how dare they help me, save my life, or that of my children.

          If the few bad apples ruin it for you, go pick fruit. First Responders are supposed to be made of tougher stuff.

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      • Odd Questioner says:

        Like Plain Old American said… dude, get another job.

        Couple o’ bits:

        1) You’re not being paid to sit on your ass and wait around for a real emergency call to come in. Your job as dispatcher is to sort out the real from the BS, so that rescue/police crews don’t go out on BS calls. It’s part of the frickin’ *job description* (and if it isn’t, it damned well should be).

        2) in a SHTF situation, odds are almost perfect that the majority of calls (if not all of them) will be for real.

        3) You hang up on the BS calls, or have the local PD speak to/fine/arrest the more egregious ones. In most places, it is way against the law to use 911 for non-emergency calls.

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      • Ben Dover says:

        I have heard that the BS call percentage is much higher. Lucky you!

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    31. Markie Mark says:

      Frankly, this guy wanted to die, there was nothing anyone could have done about it really, one way or another he was going to do himself in. I think perhaps if one recognizes that fact it can be understood that there should be no need to waste resources to save a person from themselves. Better that he took his own life this way, rather than cause harm to others, or worse suicide by Cop. The agencies who stood by, perhaps at some level recognized this, at any time the drowning victim could have returned to shore voluntarily but he opted to drown. Case closed, there are no bad guys here in this story just a moral question as it may relate to self euthanasia, who cares, move on.

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    32. Sketch says:

      Some of you have no F8cking clue what you are talking about. Pull your bibles out of your butts. i’ve been in EMS for 16 years.the SECOND someone goes (as some of you would say) “Above and Beyond” the call of duty, you not only get your license pulled, but then you very well will get sued, even if you save a life. it doesn’t matter. Why should I save a life that doesn’t WANT to be saved only to lose my license – and ability to get it in ANY state, be sued for it AND have my family’s livelihood destroyed because of it?? a lot of you people haven’t thought any of this through as you act on emotion and not logic.

      oh – and those 16 years in EMS – ALL VOLUNTEER. so STFU about pay. you people act as if fire/ems is a RIGHT. it isn’t so get over it and get over yourselves. all that dead man did way tie up 40 people who were then unable to do anything for anyone else who WANTED help. take your “righteous indignation” and blow it out your a$$.

      btw – volunteers get the training for free (i’m in an ITLS class this weekend). so unless you’re willing to get off your lazy self-important ass and do it yourself, don’t complain when the SHTF and you or someone you love needs medical help

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      • Gods Creation says:

        Sketch, your only question should be why are you protecting a system that issues licenses under the requirement that you can not act as a human being and help anyone who needs it regardless of the circumstances under threat of losing such license?

        A license is nothing but government permission to do something that is otherwise unlawful, or in the case of the gov corp against public policy. Helping a Man is against public policy I suppose, but certainly not against the Law.

        You are the problem, or a BIG part of it. Any EMS worker who is more concerned with keeping a license than helping a Man that needs it, when he needs it, should just stay at home.

        Issuing a license to people like you is a waste of resources for the People, and a method to control the weak by the corporation. Perhaps your license should be blown out the old a hole. Maybe the crap left behind can find a little humanity that doesn’t require corporate permission to exercise.

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        • AMEN!

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        • jeejoe says:

          You clearly have never been in an emergency situation, or if you have, the solution was so black and white that anyone could have made the right decision.

          EMS is a messy job. You have a limited number of resources. Are you a rescue swimmer? have you ever tried to drag a 150lb dummy from the ocean, or a bottom of a pool? let alone one who is resistant? You try to help someone who doesn’t want to be helped, is combatant, psychologically disturbed, and you are putting yourself at risk. When you put yourself at risk, you put your crew at risk, because now there are two victims, not just one.

          How is Sketch protecting that system? It seems to me like in your world, you would rather NO one work for EMS. Then who is going to pull you out of a burning house? Respond when a loved one has a heart attack? There will be no one. And perhaps you have taken it upon yourself to get the training to do so, and if you have then that is awesome. I congratulate you. I wish more people would. But I bet at least 75 percent of people would have no idea what to do.

          Issuing a license to practice EMS has absolutely nothing to do with corporate America, or bureaucracy. It is about quality control. It is about setting a standard of care that can be followed across the country. It’s about being able to protect YOU in a more efficient manner. I want a person who paid attention in their EMT course resuscitating my loved ones, not some idiot who was more interested in thumping a bible than chest compressions.

          OH, and NREMT (National Registry of EMTS) is the system you’re referring to. They’re non-profit.

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          • Odd Questioner says:

            “Are you a rescue swimmer? have you ever tried to drag a 150lb dummy from the ocean, or a bottom of a pool? let alone one who is resistant?”

            So two people couldn’t do it? Three? …with a rope? After all, they had *dozens* of people on hand.

            It’s easy to hide behind the pseudo-tough-guy talk (I especially loved the “pull you out of a burning house” bit), but your assertion still falls apart in the face of basic logic.

            This has nothing to do with thumping bibles – this is basic human kindness we’re talking about. Even the most militant atheists claim to live by some sort of moral code, so hiding behind that won’t get you anything either.

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          • jeejoe says:

            “So two people couldn’t do it? Three? …with a rope? After all, they had *dozens* of people on hand.”

            Technical rescues are not that simple. It isn’t a matter of manpower. It’s a matter of technique and equipment. You want to know the real reason that there are all of these licenses and special equipment required? It’s because assholes who are rescued (sometimes improperly) feel like suing the heroes who put their OWN lives on the line for those ungrateful assholes. If that man is injured in any way during the rescue (tie a rope to him and drag him out? we’re talking abdominal contusions, it could DROWN him, hell he could claim a neck injury – that’s difficult enough to prove and easy to fake) and then what will happen to the department? It will get sued into the ground. I’ve seen it happen before. Would it be better if he was dead? I don’t think so. But is one death preferable to crippling a fire department financially, thereby leading to more deaths because they don’t have the money? I’d say so. How’s that for logic? Save as many as you can with the resources you have available.

            The fact that you look at my questioning of a person’s experience as mere tough guy talk is concerning. HAVE you ever tried it? That questions is PURE logic! You might understand how difficult it is if you gave it a shot.

            You’re right, it has little to do with bible thumpers – and everything to do with those who have little to no professional rescue experience questioning those of us who live and breathe this sort of stuff. If you look at the responses by firefighters/EMT’s like myself, they all say the same thing. How about you stop telling us how to do our job?

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          • Odd Questioner says:

            “Technical rescues are not that simple. It isn’t a matter of manpower. It’s a matter of technique and equipment.”

            So what’s so complex about two people, tethered with a rope from shore, literally walking up and grabbing someone who is (by then) probably extremely weak from hypothermia? FFS, even an old Boy Scout Field Manual has similar techniques!

            BTW – the rope is for the rescuers, in case they get too cold. The rescuers are there to grab the guy being rescued.

            I’m not claiming that it’s always that easy, but I am saying that this isn’t exactly the equivalent to building a fusion reactor or a working orbital platform.

            OTOH, this situation is like claiming that replacing a busted video card on a home computer is impossible by anyone but highly-trained PC technicians, because they have (sing it with me now…) “training”.

            ” It’s because assholes who are rescued (sometimes improperly) feel like suing the heroes who put their OWN lives on the line for those ungrateful assholes.”

            Examples, please. “Good Samaritan” laws cover ordinary people who try to rescue someone, even if they blatantly screw up. While I’m not 100% certain that similar rules apply to pros, I do know that professionals in other government agencies (e.g. Child Protective Services) have shield laws that prevent them from being sued. Therefore, I want examples of pros getting successfully sued. A credible URL or two will suffice.

            By the way… are we operating on the assumption that everyone rescued sues, or some, or what?

            “But is one death preferable to crippling a fire department financially…”

            So what does a human life cost then, exactly? What objective criteria are you proposing to establish that determines who gets rescued and who gets left to die? Does the guy have to seem like a litigation-happy a-hole, or will the FD have to quickly run a background check on the drowning victim to make the determination? Or is it just based on a gut feeling of whoever is in charge?

            Seriously… in your estimation, who gets to live and who dies in your FD’s coverage area?

            As for daring to question someone? You may want to look at my ‘nym a bit closer. I do this a lot – it forces people to think, and with a little luck, we both learn something from the process. ;)

            BTW, I hope you don’t take it too personal – I do this to everyone, regardless of status.

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          • jeejoe says:

            http://mydigimag.rrd.com/publication/?i=41373&p=47

            This report gives a good account of EMT’s losing their license/getting suspended. violation 157.36 is one where the EMT operated outside of their scope of practice.

            ‘What objective criteria are you proposing to establish that determines who gets rescued and who gets left to die? Does the guy have to seem like a litigation-happy a-hole, or will the FD have to quickly run a background check on the drowning victim to make the determination? Or is it just based on a gut feeling of whoever is in charge?”

            We never take into account their personality. Every life is worth saving; but it’s a cold hard fact that people die and sometimes there is just nothing you can do. We never withhold care from someone who requests it. Sometimes people sign a refusal of care form – after we explain to them their condition (if I think they are having a heart attack, I outline what could potentially happen if they don’t take a ride with me in the meat wagon). Also; triage. Sometimes in a Mass Casualty Incident, people who we *might* be able to save WILL die (for example – no heartbeat and not breathing doesn’t mean permanently dead, but in triage you black tag them) and move on to someone who you know you *can* save but will die without immediate help.

            Also, Good Samaritan laws do NOT protect EMT’s or professional rescuers, nor should they. There are all kinds of things EMT’s can be sued/lose their license over that a good samaritan doesn’t have to worry about. We have the training, therefore we should know better.

            I don’t take it personal. A lot of people misunderstand what our job is and what it takes, and I’m happy to clarify. It just… gets old when you have to do it all the time.

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          • Odd Questioner says:

            “http://mydigimag.rrd.com/publication/?i=41373&p=47

            This report gives a good account of EMT’s losing their license/getting suspended. violation 157.36 is one where the EMT operated outside of their scope of practice.”

            I’d argue that it’s not a case of litigation, but I’ll let that be.:)

            I do understand why he may have lost his license, though. I’m assuming “invasive” in the description means the EMT stuck something (intubation, scalpel, etc) into the victim’s body, correct?

            “…but it’s a cold hard fact that people die and sometimes there is just nothing you can do.”

            I agree. In true SHTF situations, that happens in spades. Same with triage… you do what you have to in order to save who you can. Not arguing that at all. My big beef is with the incident at hand.

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        • JANE says:

          When someone starts attacking Christians,

          Sketch said: “Some of you have no F8cking clue what you are talking about. Pull your bibles out of your butts. i’ve been in EMS for 16 years.”
          ________________

          It sounds more like he has PMS, not EMS; poor confusing creature. I can’t believe some loons are trying to turn this website into a shouting match or into a dating service.

          The kind of system you talk about is the kind which “ONLY ADDS DISASTER WHILE TRYING TO SOLVE A SIMPLE PROBLEM.”

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      • Steve says:

        Boy Sketcher……YOU are a public servant with that kind of hatred toward the general public? That’s a little scary, your “WANTED help”, instead of “NEEDED” your help. So you think caring about other people is bible thumping? Interesting.

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      • Ben Dover says:

        As I said, what becomes of your family if you are killed? Should I volunteer to impoverish my own family to “save” him? It is not just the cop’s/fireman’s butt on the line.

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    33. Charlie says:

      That the issue of whether to make an attempt to save someone’s life could be so controversial, this is the biggest warning sign of all of this.

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    34. texas_son says:

      I don’t remember, when I was a child ever hearing about something like this? I like to read the prepping sites and rarely ever get drawn out into the fray.
      I pray TSHTF never does happen. But if you are paying attention to the cards we’re being dealt it’s not hard to see the train is on the track. People will take care of their own first. We’ve seen it played out in Katrina and in other disasters. The other day I turned 56 years old and had a double hernia operation as a result of my power lifting days. I would still tie myself on a rope to go out for you. My body, worst case could be pulled in to bury but I doubt that given hypothermia he would have suffered I would have died.
      What you have to remember is it’s not the moment when an emergency is thrust upon you that you make up your mind. It’s hid away in all the moments in between that make up your life. The adherence to “I am my brother’s keeper” in all the little, insignificant things you do every day. To lose my life saving another is part and parcel of being a Christian. It’s not death I fear, but a life played out without service to my God.
      WTSHTF I will care for those under my roof. There will be wolves that will run the flock and feed off of them. Being a Christian as some suppose, does not require I meekly submit and I will have the means to defend my family and neighbor if need be. If we can’t even make an effort to save a fellow human being now- how awful will it be when if all hits the fan?

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      • Sheldon Plankton says:

        So many Christians blow hot air, then act like Romans. Even for this atheist, it’s impressive when one actually embraces and expresses the true spirit of Jesus. Good show!

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    35. Jim says:

      If they won’t even try when times are normal, the you know what to expect when times are rough……sorry. You are on your own because clearly they won’t have a SHTF policy for which they are trained for and have the equipment needed.

      I’m glad I don’t pay their wages…..I’d be embarrassed to pay for police and fire fighters that can’t even try.

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    36. Kevin says:

      I only seen two glaring examples of “The Protectors” in action.

      One the LA Riots after the Rodney King verdict. The authorities “bugged out” leaving everyone to fend for yourself. As much as they cry about guns in criminal hands they left the firearm stores unguarded. I wonder how much education it took to make that decision; my bet a Masters Degree in public policy.

      The second was the aftermath of Katrina. The heavy handed police disarmed the law abiding going as far as wrestling an old woman to the ground (on video, imagine what was not on video) and then proceeded to move on once again leaving this time unarmed defenseless citizens on their own. Resupply took about as long as getting supplies to the 101st Airborne in the Battle of the Bulge.

      For the most part the police will protect the police and their political bosses if the
      S..REALLY..HTF.

      Small town America might be different. I know good cops and I know city cops. I just don’t happen to know good city cops. I’m sure they are there but I bet by and large they do not reach positions of authority.

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    37. Steve says:

      “Want to know what police and fire might do [for you] in SHTF?”

      NOTHING.

      You need to plan to be totally self-sufficient. The government isn’t going to be there for you. Period. Don’t waste one second believing otherwise.

      No police protection. Concerned about bad guys? Practice at the gun range and have enough ammo. No fire protection. Concerned about fires? Have a fire extinguisher or two or three… Medical care? Food? Clean water? Etc. Etc.? You get the picture.

      The only person that’s going to help you is YOU. Plan for that and you’ll be OK.

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    38. rich says:

      the shit has not and will not hit the fan !!! why do you people CONSTANTLY post crap about the shit hitting the fan ??? IT NEVER DOES……get a grip !!

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    39. harry says:

      This should serve as a warning, DO NOT TRUST ANYONE IN A UNIFORM OR IN AUTHORITY POSITIONS, PERIOD!!!

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    40. Sketch says:

      @God’s Creation, and BJ – did you REALLY just say that? wow. your ignorance is astonishing. please tell me what an escharotomy is – without googling. tell us how to treat an injury to the pericardial sac. please explain to us the physics of energy transference of a car hitting a jersey wall at 35mph at a 45 degree angle? do you know how to calculate yield stress on a 3/4″ I-beam? or the dynamic load placed on a 40 story building in a 50mph gust of wind?

      You are SURROUNDED by things that REQUIRE a LICENSE to do or build. Its almost like they have to know and be trained in something called “standards”… strange, i know… but not in your world i guess. In YOUR world, ANYONE can build a bridge out of clay bricks and doctors still spread butter on burned skin, while nurses pray.

      @Steve – If you’re threatening to kill yourself, tell us why should I risk my life, and the well-being of my family if you don’t want me to try and help? when did you surrender your liberty to make that choice? why should I FORCE my “HELP” on you?

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      • Odd Questioner says:

        So you need a license to have a couple guys and a rope talk to and perhaps pull a hypothermic guy out of neck-deep water?

        Seriously?

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      • Gods Creation says:

        Ignorance?

        “You are SURROUNDED by things that REQUIRE a LICENSE to do or build. Its almost like they have to know and be trained in something called “standards”… strange, i know… but not in your world i guess. In YOUR world, ANYONE can build a bridge out of clay bricks and doctors still spread butter on burned skin, while nurses pray.”

        NOTHING REQUIRES A LICENSE. Things were built and done long before licenses were “required” to do it.

        If your beloved govcorp wanted to help, it could simply issue a certificate of proficiency and let the free market take care of the rest.

        You might get one bridge built out of clay, but no one would hire that guy again, let alone pay him. Someone else would come along and do the job properly and his business will grow because of the quality of the product.

        Licenses are required only to bring the businesses into the jurisdiction of the corporation because it has no jurisdiction in law.

        Your license does two things. Makes you and your work the property of the corp, and gains corporate protection in the case of failure so you are no longer liable for your own actions.

        By getting a LICENSE, you have proven nothing but your loyalty to the corp. One thing is for certain, that loyalty will not be returned.

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    41. Sketch says:

      @Steve – who are you to say when someone “NEEDS” help? that why in EMS you have the RIGHT to refuse treatment. if you don’t WANT our help, sign the dotted line, and call us if YOU decide you NEED our help… its something called LIBERTY (or self-ownership, if you will).

      if someone is “not in their ‘right’ mind” (defined by EMS as not being able to tell us the day, name, president, etc…) then we “assume” that they would want help if they WERE in their “right” mind – otherwise, if they can answer the basic questions we ask, they are free to refuse…

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      • Steve says:

        Hey Sketch,
        So do you think someone that is about to commit suicide is in their right mind?

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        • Sketch says:

          absolutely. I see people doing it every day at mcDonalds.

          Is that not what you meant?? yes. sane people kill themselves everyday. Oregonians allow doctor assisted suicide, some countries in Europe. you people act as if suicide is bad for EVERY instance. you assume that people MUST be “CRAZY” if they do it. why? because offends your (most often religious) “morals”? regardless if your intentions are religious or not – your morals are not THEIR morals and should not be imposed on them.

          the state does the same thing and you people FREAK OUT – but its okay when YOU do it… the act is the same, only the motivation/intent is different. and y’all know what they say about “good intentions”.

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          • Odd Questioner says:

            Yep – Oregon has physician-assisted suicide (I live here).

            Want some details? I’ll bring a few along:

            * most folks here who off themselves here underwent no psychiatric evaluation before offing themselves.

            * most of them did not have a terminal illness.

            In Europe, where (in places) it is legal, the determination can be made without patient information or consent – it could be made by family or by the doctor. Would you like to have that determination made by either?

            Just because it is legal? That doesn’t make it right, any more than DEA or BATF seizure laws (or 1950′s era segregation laws) are right just because they are law.

            You are correct in that my moral structure is not their moral structure. That said, the pro-suicide laws so far have begun to move on a slippery slope… how long before someone else decides whether you live or die, even if you’re not even sick?

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    42. Paul Revere says:

      Get used to it people. When this U.S. of MOFO crashes you are going to see a lot of suicides and murders. Learn how to use a shovel to bury the dead or how to organize a pyre to burn the bodies.

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    43. Bill says:

      Never send to ask for whom the bell tolls – it tolls for thee!

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    44. Steve says:

      Sketch
      On one of your last comments to me you somehow assumed I wanted to commit suicide,”Steve-If you’re threatening to kill yourself, tell us why should I risk my life….blah…blah….blah. Hey Mr.Self proclaimed genius, when you say us…..who the f.u.c.k. are you talk’n bout? You sir are a moron. By the way there are more than one Steve posting here

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      • Sketch says:

        WOW – impressive. I know I’M scared. Do you kiss your mamma with that mouth? here’s some homework for you – look up the word “rhetorical”.

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    45. greaseman says:

      some people look on the situation as “why didn’t the fire dept try to save the man”? Some people look on the situation as saving the taxpayers mucho money trying to put another nut job through mental health counseling. I guess it just depends on you’re point of view. I have a feeling as things get worse and worse in many municipalities, we’ll begin to see a lot of strange things we haven’t seen before.

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    46. Look, people, you don’t look at the situation. You don’t think about the risks other than “can I make it”? If you know its impossible. I’ll step in front of a freight train to save someone if I think there is ANY chance of saving him/her. I believe people that do that get a multitude of sins covered for their actions if not a full pardon. It sounds to me like it would have been a walk in the park to save this guy.

      I don’t care if he wanted to die. To say that he wasn’t worth saving because it was his choice is just stupid. People that do things like that have emotional/mental/spiritual problems that can be fixed. Just the fact that someone thought enough of him to risk getting into the cold water could have meant more to him than the actual save.

      There were many ways to handle this, but, the corporation has limited the first responders’ ability to act like the compassionate men and women they should be. Licenses do that. They regulate behavior. …and the sheople watching the whole thing, well, thats bad too.

      The fact is, FedCorp and all the StateCorps have brainwashed people into believing that you have to have “training” for everything. Its rampant in my field (IT). Everyone thinks they have to be trained. I do all kinds of training on things I’ve NEVER been trained on. But, my hands are calloused from yanking on them oars. I row my own boat and all that most of the FedCorp and StateCorp employees do is get in my way.

      WTSHTF It will be nice to see people forced to take the oars in hand and see the *Corp enforcers denied the ability and the incentives to harass The People.

      While I see many bad things about SHTF scenarios, there will be bright spots.

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      • Sketch says:

        a strange reply coming from you – who always seems to espouse the need for “personal liberty” and so on and so forth…

        YOU don’t CARE if he wanted to die….. well why is that okay for YOU to have an opinion, but not someone else? YOU trying to FORCE YOUR morals on someone else is no better than the state doing the same. Like abortion, you’re taking the choice AND any (possible) consequences away from someone ELSE based on YOUR opinion… but its the STATE thats evil, huh? funny how that works…

        i guess as long as YOU want the person to be helped… Hey, lets expand that to a country – we need to “help” Iraq, whether they want it or not. lets “help” Lybia, and whoever else WE think NEEDS our help…. so much for your “liberty” arguments.

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        • Sketch,

          You have a very strange way of connecting helping mentally ill people with the immoral violation of sovereign borders. Now “invading” has become “helping”?

          The problem is that when the state forces its “morals” on people its done in a “one size fits all” fashion, normally, to buy votes or for the purposes of furthering hidden agendas. (*VERY* much like the “helping” of Iraq and Libya, BTW.) Oh, it starts out innocent and pure enough but in the end it becomes corrupt and self serving.

          When I “force my morals” on someone its on a case by case basis. If this had been a child that “wanted” to play in front of a freight train, would I have been “forcing my morals” onto that child by saving h(er)(im)? Of course not! The child didn’t know the cost of playing in front of the freight train! Just like this guy didn’t know the full cost of what he was doing because of his compromised mental/spiritual/emotional condition. Or, in fact he did and this was a cry for help.

          But, I say, “Guilty as charged…” because I believe that life is precious and that anyone who wants to end it without a very long and thoughtful process is sick and in need of being thrown a lifeline. Indeed, there are cases where I would support the ending of a life were that life so completely wrecked by disease and misery. But, that requires thoughtful determination and I very much doubt there was much of that preceding this attempt.

          I find it almost laughable that you’re equating my desire to force my morals onto another individual to the tyranny of the state. It is beyond simplistic. My desire to save the man is pure. I get nothing in return other than the satisfaction of knowing that the children, parents and loved ones of this man get to share his precious life a little longer, as does he. When the state does it, well, they get the satisfaction to bleed him longer for more tax money and to make sure the generated debt against his birth certificate is secured a little longer.

          So, my final thought is that if you can think this way, many others can also, and thats a problem. Your lack of understanding of what suicide is somewhat shocks me. Suicide (attempts) are seen as a cry for help. “Do you care enough to save me?” “Will you sacrifice a little for me?” My answer: “Yes!” ..and my answer in the case of this one would have been, “Hey slackers, get out of my way!”

          I row my own boat (as someone above said). Stand back or you’re gonna get whacked with an oar! Of course, I would have been the perfect one to save this guy. My fat butt floats like a cork on saltwater. I’d have dove in and made it look easy. Another advantage of being 50lbs overweight is that blubber has much less thermal conductive so hypothermia would take much longer for me. From the description of this event I could have stripped to my skivies, dove in, pulled the guy to safety and barring the massive bullshit paperwork from the cops and the EMTs, I could have been back at work managing servers an hour later.

          All I ever ask is for people to do the right thing. Not saving this guy because of licensing is a heinous violation of every thing anyone has been taught. As GC said, it just proves how deep the brainwashing goes.

          Be men and women not “licensed professionals” because in the end it won’t matter how many licenses you have when you face that great, white throne. It will not matter at all. I can imagine a resounding laugh after you say, “I’m sorry but I wasn’t licensed to do the right thing…”

          …and the more I think about this, the more it pisses me off.

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          • Sheldon Plankton says:

            Very well put, you fat heroic bastard.

            You can fix my server or save my life any day! (Of course, I am happy to save yours as well, but it’s best I stay away from your digital devices.)

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          • Sketch says:

            i won’t disagree with most of your comments – however there really is no difference in the state or YOU not letting this man kill himself. You admit to forcing your own morals on someone – even if it is a case-by-case basis. why? what gives you the right to impose on the rights of others? who said the man was mentally ill? sane people kill themselves all the time. you’re never near it, so you don’t see it. but then you don’t care enough to as you’re not in EMS. you’re not even trying where you live – you’re just sitting back in your internet tough-guy room with cheetos and a diet coke harping on other people…

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    47. All you have to do is read many of the comments to this story here and you can clearly see why America is where she is today…how does it go “all this is necessary for evil to happen is for good men to do nothing”

      And evil is exactly what happened on that beach, whether directly or indirectly. That man’s soul is condemned to spend eternity in hell now for committing suicide, and many left behind are left with questions and grief beyond belief.

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      • Sketch says:

        oh where to start with this one… first, i guess you have to believe in hell. second, your jesus was jewish. jews don’t believe in hell. try looking up where the hellfire doctrine came from. third – if your god’s justice is “perfect” (eye for an eye and all that), tell me how is burning in torment and anguish for all of f*cking eternity perfect justice for 50-70 odd years of “sin”? an eye for an eye in deed. also, didn’t jesus say that the wage that sins pays is death (rom 6:23) NOT eternal torture… if thats how your god plays, i don’t want to worship him. but then again, you god even tortured his son for 3 days in hell… what a dick move.

        \don’t look now, your hypocrisy is showing.

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        • Odd Questioner says:

          Wow – where do *I* start?

          Okay… Jewish Hell: It’s called “Sheol”, and is described as a place of eternal/near-eternal unconsciousness. Only those whom God finds worthy are awakened from it post-mortem.

          Eternal punishment: It’s based on mindset, not actions. If your 50-70 years of “sin” includes a consistent and unrepentant rejection of God, then why should He bother with you after death? Incidentally, the ideal of Hell and what it is has been a debated subject for millennia now – the torment and anguish are not, but the specific source of said torment and anguish are.

          Romans 6:23 was written by St. Paul, and paraphrases Jesus at best. Only the Gospels contain direct quotes.

          The 3 days – lots of bits in here:

          * Jesus presented himself as the perfect sacrifice out of love, to absolve everyone else from sin. The only requirements are to ask, and to strive to follow His guidelines.

          * “perfect sacrifice”? Yep. Back then, Jews sacrificed animals, offering life in atonement for sins. The discussion as to why that happened is a lot deeper than Mac would tolerate here, so I urge you to study it independently, or find a good Rabbi to explain it.

          * During that 3-day period, Jesus freed those who had died before his time.

          * Jesus himself said that during those three days, he would tear down and rebuild the Jewish temple – meaning that He would entirely re-make the metaphysical aspects of our faith in God during that time.

          Long story short – if you’re going to rag on someone for their religion and claim to know it, well… it pays to do more than just a cursory skimming through the Bible.

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          • atheist says:

            Santa and his elf helpers live at the north pole.

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          • Sketch says:

            you didn’t refute any of my statement and then tell me i’m skimming the bible? straw. man.

            let me get this straight – you’re okay with a god TORTURING someone for all of eternity for a few years of sin, but you’re freaking out over people leaving the man alone for a few minutes? and then tell me MY priorities are out of line?

            You said it yourself – for 50-70 years of continuous, unrepentant sin, why would god have anything more to do with you? but according to the fundaMENTALists, god keeps you alive for the specific reason of torture. and everyone is OKAY with this? Bull. Shit.

            but then you have a problem with

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          • Odd Questioner says:

            “you didn’t refute any of my statement…”

            Ah, but I did on the incorrect points of it. Not my fault if you didn’t read it. ;)

            “you’re okay with a god TORTURING someone for all of eternity for a few years of sin…”

            Really? Define “torture”. I see you indeed didn’t read closely what I had written.

            I said “torment and anguish”, and chose those words for a reason – since everyone involved is quite dead (and lacking things like, oh, a pain-sensing nervous system), one is forced to assume that this is all mental. Personally, my working theory (based on scripture, mind) is that the torment and anguish is based on separation from God, and from being forced to fend for oneself among similarly selfish/hateful/etc individuals.

            Not as sexy as scorching coals and pitchforks by arrow-tailed guys with horns coming out their foreheads, but it is a far more real possibility, IMHO.

            So I ask again: If one spends his life repudiating God, then why should God do him any favors after he’s dead? Let him fend for himself throughout eternity.

            As for the diff between letting the condemned be cast off to Hell and saving a suicidal person’s life? Remember – Death is the progression point. As long as someone is alive (and not, you know, dead), there’s a chance for the guy to become a better person.

            There’s not only no dichotomy here, but it makes perfect sense. After all, giving someone the maximum chance at getting right with God is, to a Christian, a compassionate act.

            PS: Just to let you know, I’m not a fundamentalist, or even a Protestant.

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        • jeejoe says:

          That’s funny, because all I see when I read this article are two groups arguing: 1) who are professional rescuers/firefighters/emts, and do this sort of thing every day, 2) a group of people who do not, and therefore have not a single foot to stand on when it comes to “telling us how to do our job.”

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          • Odd Questioner says:

            …so it’s your job to say ‘fuggit’ and let the poor schmuck die?

            So where is this criteria that the “professionals” use to determine who lives and who dies?

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          • jeejoe says:

            Nope. That’s not our job. It’s to help who we can, when we can, with what we have available. The criteria that professionals use is called “scope of practice.” For example, an EMT knows how to intubate or start an IV? That’s awesome, but not in their scope of practice. They do it, (or more precisely- do it in front of the wrong person: Some paramedics I’ve worked with are more than happy to let me do it :))and BOOM their license is revoked, no longer an EMT. Probably never going to be one in any state ever again.

            In short yes, we do have to decide who lives and who dies, and it isn’t a decision that I take lightly. Each county has it’s own protocols that I guess could be considered the criteria that professionals use. Most of these protocols are similar. If you really are that interested in what the criteria is, most EMS agencies make those protocols available to the public. Or talk to your local fire dept – they usually have those books on file and are stoked to have a citizen who is interested take a look at them.

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          • Odd Questioner says:

            I’d actually like to check out the protocols in my locale (Tualatin Valley Fire and Rescue – good guys, IMHO).

            OTOH, you mentioned something yourself that validates something… that EMTs do perform things they are not trained for – I assume it happens when exigency demands it, yes? When a life is on the line and cannot wait, right?

            I was kind of hoping that someone in that crowd at Alameda would’ve done the same thing.

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          • jeejoe says:

            right. It isn’t uncommon for EMT’s to do procedures that are *minimally* outside their scope of practice. Basically the “rule” (I use quotation marks because there is no real rule, it’s more a uh… common practice) if someone is going to die, and you know how to do the procedure, and you don’t have time to transport the patient to a caregiver who has the proper cert, then do it.

            It is a very fine line though. You do it wrong and kill the patient, you could get in a lot of trouble. Honestly though if you’re going to be doing something like a cricothyrotomy, you WILL be in direct contact with your Medical Director, who will walk you through the process. At the end of the day, it’s often the medical director’s call on what really happens to the patient in those iffy scenarios. We do operate under their license (not our own – EMT’s are not permitted to practice medicine as a profession unless they are working under the medical license of a doctor or physician).

            Now in the case of the Alameda dept, vs EMT stuff: ours doesn’t threaten our own lives. Worst case scenario, patient dies, which likely would have happened anyways.

            That being said though, it isn’t uncommon for firefighters to put their lives on the line for things that bureaucratically wouldn’t be considered “their job.” If they do it right, they get a medal.

            “I was kind of hoping that someone in that crowd at Alameda would’ve done the same thing.”

            After following up on this article with a few more

            http://www.firehouse.com/news/top-headlines/mutual-aid-cos-say-alameda-never-asked-help

            and

            http://www.firehouse.com/news/top-headlines/experts-calif-firefighter-right-not-act-bay-death

            it looks like they 1) tried to get the Coast Guard to rescue the man, but were unable and 2) were woefully unprepared to deal with any sort of water rescue due to budget cuts. Although it is fishy (no pun intended) that they stated they requested aid from a number of other counties, but said counties could not verify that request.

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    48. I’m surprised the cops and Fire Dept. didn’t just stand on the shore and chant “Yes we can” while the poor guy drowned.

      Socialism disgusts me.

      I’ll believe in it when a single Hollywierd Learjet leftist opens up her home to just ONE indigent adult

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    49. Ben Dover says:

      In confined space training I was told that 60 of deaths in confined spaces are would-be rescuers. A similar statistic probably applies here. I have had a little lifeguard training (as a teen in the 70s) and was told to avoid going into the water to save someone drowning if if at all possible because they could easily pull you under.

      I think that in a SHTF situation that the best we could hope for would be for the gubment to leave us all alone and do nothing to us.

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    50. Ben Dover says:

      Sorry, that was supposed to be 60%.

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    51. Yup I believe in hell and scripture says even the demons (satan) believes in hell….and shutters!
      Jesus being Jewish has nothing to do with whether or not Jews believe in hell…your argument there goes no where.
      Eye for eye was old law, Jesus came and brought a few new things :-)
      And the wages of sin is death is true…there are two deaths, one is physical and one eternal.

      Where’s my hypocrisy showing?? The fact that I am not perfect and get mad? LoL Sorry to disappoint….I don’t have the amount of grace, wisdom and patience as say a Gods Creation or Yourdaddy And even old Johnny told some people off before they took his head off ;-)

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    52. grayfoxgreen says:

      Wow!!!
      The poor man finally achieved what normal people would recoil at doing…ending his own existence.Too bad there were no funds to have the trained personnel to deal with him.People who have gone off the edge are truly dangerous to those not equipped to handle their mental derangement.One reason we lack the funds so every community can have trained personnel is the sad fact that the USA has a import tax rate of 2% verses China at 22%,India at 40%(yes 40%),etc…Get the picture?When you run out of the income from lowering said taxes(and lower income taxes for the UBER Rich),bad thing will and are happening.
      Best to All
      GFG

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    53. Just me says:

      I don’t see why firemen are always lumped in with the police, many firemen are volunteers across America and do their job for free.
      When the word firemen is used, it should be said that they’re speaking about the paid union firemen who in no way should be lumped in with the thousands who volunteer.

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    54. Charlie says:

      Regarding all the christian stuff. I’m an atheist and I really don’t understand what’s so difficult about all of this. If someone is in a bad state you do what you can to try and help them. It’s not about being religous or any of that. If that’s the only reason you’re being good then you’re being good for the wrong reasons. It’s about being human. I think all these rationalizations for not helping are just that. Don’t be a pussy. This wasn’t an end of the world movie scenerio. Seriously, could you be any more melodramatic? Somebody was in need and everyone thought of all the reasons why they shouldn’t help instead of all the reasons that they should. What if it was your brother or some other family member instead of someone from across town? As if that should make any difference.

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      • Sketch says:

        tell me this Charlie – if you have a mortally mountain lion trapped in your house, how do you get it out? using your logic, you’re going rush in and grab it regardless of the consequences…

        i see a LOT of internet tough guys here saying that they would have done something… but no one did. not one bystander did. the truth is that no one knows what they would do until the time comes…

        so – how would get a wounded mountain lion out of your house? you’re not trained to work with wounded animals, but then, that shouldn’t matter, right? i mean it can only tear you to shreds before it dies…

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        • SmokinOkie says:

          Sketch-in this situation I’d calmly open my 3 ring binder on lions, go to the section on “mountain” lions, flip to the entries on “wounded” mountain lions and then scan down to the paragraph on “mortally” wounded mountain lions. Then I’d refer to my manual on firearms and select the proper caliber and configuration for dispatching said lion indoors. Then, remembering to adjust the sights for windage because the air conditioner is on, I’d calmly take aim, release the safety, breathe and squeeze the trigger- blowing a huge hole in my television. Probably at about the same time the lion would attack and I’d be scrambling on the floor with my binder looking for the subsection on “attacks of…” “lions…” “mountain…” “wounded…” “mortally…” all the while yelling ‘where the hell are my glasses?’

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        • Charlie says:

          I’d shoot him.

          Now back to the guy in the bay. I’d throw him a rope, try to talk him down, see if anyone had a boat, etc. It may not work. But I would try. Not difficult, just common sense attempts.

          “rushing in and grabbing a moutain lion”? Not so much.

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        • Sheldon Plankton says:

          The reason this story is SO shocking and disheartening is that no one on the scene (except for the girl who was too late) had the stones to meet the challenge. Mostly, these stories end with a pro or bystander getting the job done in fine fashion. This story is an aberration.

          Your contention that it took serious heroics to save a drowning man 50 yards offshore is BS. It took garden variety American balls, but no one except the chick who recovered the body seemed to be wearing theirs that day. You oughtta dig yours out of the attic and try ‘em on for size.

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        • A lone man STANDING in water (not in the process of drowning)is not the same as a mountain lion Sketch.

          No one is telling you or anyone how to do your job or say we could do it better…we’d just would have liked to have seen someone on the beach DO something…professionals or not.

          If nothing was going to be done…the professionals shouldn’t have stood there watching this mans agony while wasting tax dollars. The ‘regular’ people on the beach were probably waiting for the professionals to do something. Live and learn.

          You keep talking about internet tough men doing nothing…well you wouldn’t be here without them so get off of your high horse and quit putting your profession at the top of the pile.

          We all need each other in some way or another. The next poor a-hole – as you guys kindly put it- that you rescue…or the person sitting behind this computer must MIGHT be the brain surgeon who your family member needs…so have some respect.

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      • Charlie,

        You’re a mystery to me. Christian doctrine says that man is evil and that no good can come of anything unless it is of God. So, why is it that I’d pick you as a partner before at least 50% of my Christian brothers?

        Take it as a compliment or an insult but truth is truth. You’re a credit to the human race when you think like this.

        Thanks for giving me a little more hope.

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        • atheist says:

          I dont belive in magical giant fairy living in the sky.

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          • Do you believe in a creator? If you don’t believe in a “magical giant fairy living in the sky”, thats OK. But, do you acknowledge that science does not have all the answers? Are we spiritual beings?

            You can say you’re an atheist, however, nearly every atheist I’ve ever met were not atheists at all, they just hadn’t fallen for any particular religion’s propaganda yet.

            I know, sounds funny for someone who has fallen, I realize. But, I keep an open mind and realize that, while I believe every word in the Bible (Thats the real words, not the translated ones) I also comprehend that they could mean something other than they have been interpreted as meaning.

            I see how FedCorp and the StateCorps have twisted and perverted language into a tool to rape We The People. Anyone that thinks religious leaders OF ANY AGE would not do the same thing is a dreamer and a fool.

            From what I’ve seen, most atheists are more into not believing in “religion” than not believing in “God”. …and for that, I give them the thumbs up. The structure of religion is man’s way of using God’s law. Sometimes its good. Sometimes its not. Often times its just a way to twist the law of God so it fits the profit motive. Certainly, thats how the *Corps use it while at the same time, denying it.

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        • Charlie says:

          Thanks NetRanger. You sound like someone I could trust my loved ones with.

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    55. Plain Old American says:

      The sad thing is that as a society we have been inculcated to refuse to do anything unless we are properly “trained.”

      Well the truth is that the S Will HTF and when it does you may find yourself in a situation where you are going to wire a gas generator into the service entrance wires for a building or maybe you have to set a broken bone or drive a Kenworth with a 13 speed roadranger tranny or provide counsel to a distraught stranger. We are all going to have to use our mental and physical abilities as best we can. I hope you have a love in your heart for your fellow man.

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      • …and so the rest of us with our long paragraphs can just cut them off.

        “I hope you have a love in your heart for your fellow man.”

        Thanks, Plain, for summarizing everything that I, GC and every well intentioned man or woman on here has said.

        Its really all about the love, isn’t it? …and people take care of what they love. Prestige. Careers. Comfort. …or a drowning man.

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        • This mornings message was about Nehemiah…..pastor said we are not a nation of tenacious go getters anymore, but more of a nation of cry baby wimps…..I smiled and thought of this thread.

          Also afterwards, I asked pastor “what are your opinions and thoughts on preparedness since it was mentioned this morning in your message”? He said one word “love”

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    56. an angry veteran says:

      if someone wants to die let em’… there should be death booths on every towns center square in america. your own government is intentionally poisoning your flu shots , poisoning your kids shots so the get autism, poisoningnyour foodsm waters etc etc so you all get cancer… catching on yet… right now they are feeding american active duty troops sea food from the gulf of mexico poisoned with corexit! how f’d up is that… kids are being bought and transported by the RAND Corp for child sex slave trade… and the VETERANS ADMINISTRATION is intentionally POISONING Veterans with Drugs Made in Israel! Bringing about slow kill death to Vets! WTF! And you all wanna whine cause some dude wants to die in the Bay! Leave him alone!

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      • So, Angry Vet, say this guy was a veteran, half crazed from the poison the veterans admin has been giving him. Someone cares enough to know this and says, “No! Don’t let him drown! His heads messed up from the crap they’ve been [feeding, injecting, prescribing] him!”

        Different situation? Not really. Society tends to pick on people and poison them in various ways, chemically or emotionally. He needed a saviour. No, not Jesus (he probably needed that too) but he needed someone to care. Someone to jump in. Someone to grab his collar and say, “I got you, man. I care.” Thats all. He wanted to die because his head was messed up.

        I’m not mocking you. I only take issue with you letting wanting to let this dude drown. What you need to understand is that the veterans administration doesn’t want to poison you. Thats not the goal. The goal is profit and control.

        Most of you just don’t understand the world we live in today.

        No man (unless he were insane) would poison another man’s kids. But, a corporation would if there was enough profit in it. Corporations are inhuman and have less compassion than anything on this planet. Even animals, the soulless creatures that populate the food chain below us, have compassion. Corporations HAVE NONE. They infiltrate, corrupt and control and profit. The corporation, as defined in Black’s Law Dictionary, is the most inhuman and evil thing on this planet.

        Our government is no longer a government. It is a corporation. That is so that it can inhumanely handle us. There is much more profit in that. To do that it must define us as soulless animals.

        They feed you poison and feel no pangs of guilt because a soulless creation of man has no compassion or conscience and they see you as the same. Hey! Whats a little poison between sub-corporations, right?

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        • an angry veteran says:

          I still stand by my first claim let em die if he wants to… I know from personal experience true physical pain from physical injury – death would have been a sweet end to my physical and mental psychosis from pain… I didn’t die though I suffered for about two years of constant physical pain and fought with the F-ing VA for basic Med Care and treatment. And survived… so I know what I’m talking about Dude! If someone wants to die let em!!! No Matter how F’ed up someone is the Fight or Flee psychological self preservation will over ride the drugs and other emotional psychosis bs going on!!! He wanted to die – leave him be!

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    57. an angry veteran says:

      I’d should think you would all be more concerned with the fact the COUNTRY of CHINA is buying 50 square miles of the state of IDAHO! Yes 50 MILES and being given thousands more of western USA by the US GOV in exchange for CHINA buying our debt!!! Hello China doesn’t have to invade america all they gotta do is BUY your ASS!!!

      Ya’ll better start learning Chinese, especially all you White Supremency Nazi Boys in Boise Idaho!!! Cause your boy Govna BUTCH just sold you out for 50 bucks to China!

      Ching Chine China Man sittin on a Horse in IDAHO! Just bought your Country Ass! ;0P wtf!

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      • Gods Creation says:

        The corp can give China corporate ownership of whatever it likes. When the corp dies, they will still have to fight a bunch of gun wielding rednecks who don’t speak Chinese and have no desire to learn. The govcorp does not own any land in the law, thus cannot really sell it to them.

        OTOH after reading this thread, I suspect that most will either die along with the corp or take up Chinese wondering why Man came fourth to help when they came to get them.

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        • an angry veteran says:

          ya’ll need to read up on Agenda 21 , aswell as keep up with what Obummmer has done lately the Illegal Alien Barry Soetoro/ CIA Puppet Prez Just stole 60,000 more acres from Montana and made it federal Preserve as well as another 400,000 acres from other western states to secure more money from China!!! Hello! China gets all the natural resources as collateral!!! For our Illegal Govs debt!

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    58. an angry veteran says:

      Same goes for MONTANA MAX BAUCUS scum bag is seliing out MONTANA to CHINA AND RUSSIA… and pocketing monies from every deal like it’s hot cakes!!! He’s selling ya out MONTANA!!! WAKE UP!!!

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    59. SmokinOkie says:

      Sketch-let’s make a deal: I’ll leave the escharotomy and pericardial sac injuries to you (and I’ll even throw in a subdural hematoma or two) and you leave the theology to the believers. In your comment where you decried the ‘ignorance’ of others, you left yourself a bit vulnerable to the same charge when you wandered into Christian doctrine. The topic of the article, and this site in general, are not focused primarily on religion so I won’t go into too much detail. I’ll just say that on your comments concerning Christianity you are batting .000 BJ answered most of them. I’ll just add that very few Christians believe Jesus spent 3 days in hell (He didn’t)
      Now, about the question of licensing or certifications: Go back to Gods Creation comment @ 3:29pm. He made the point of the corporate control, and more importantly, the corp indoctrination, that confuses and restricts many of us. Yeah, I’m as guilty of buying into that as anyone else. But GCs comment IS valid. Ask yourself this- why did I go into EMS work? If the answer is (mostly) to try and help people who are suffering then that is great. And I’ll bet that was your motivation in the beginning. But now look at where you are. The corp has suckered you into fearing them. They threaten to take away the paper permission slip they gave you, and thereby take away the job they pay you to do, or ‘allow’ you to do in the case of volunteers, and you cave to their demands. You agree that losing a license is more important than somebody losing their life. And the threat of lawsuits falls into the same category. Lawyers and lawsuits are afterall, just another part of the big scary corporation. Again. I’m as guilty as anyone of buying the corp crap and allowing them to intimidate me, but I’m beginning to learn and am trying to extricate myself as much as I can. You, me, and 300 mil americans DON’t HAVE TO LIVE THIS WAY!
      As for your comment that you can’t help someone that refuses help, you are right. And you covered the aspect of someone not in their right mind and got that exactly right also. And while I’m at it- let me say a genuine “thank you” for the years you have spent as a volunteer EMS.
      I suppose the main question I have is for all the people who stood by and watched the man drown. When they lay down at night and have a few minutes to think, will the civillians be content that they didn’t get involved and are therefore safe from lawsuits, and will the cops/firefighters be content that their jobs are secure within the corporation because they followed policy….or will any of them honestly be wondering if they did the right thing? Even Charlie the atheist got that one right!

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      • Sketch says:

        I’ve got to get to class – I’ll reply to this in full later – but for now, please tell me how religion and government are different?

        and btw, i spent 25+ years of my life going to church, leading study groups and ministry. please tell me YOUR definition of “theologist”.

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        • SmokinOkie says:

          I seem to have touched a nerve. Probably the sciatic, since I always was a pain in the ass! Sketch, my primary position on shtfplan is (self-appointed) assistant for plucky comic relief. Anonymous is the chief comic here but I try to add my pathetic utterances from time to time. So far Mac hasn’t banned me or mailed any anthrax to my house so I guess it’s ok with him. It’s an unpaid position- I too, am a volunteer!
          And I look forward to your forthcoming response, but be forewarned, I have a vocabulary of over 200 words. And I know what many of them mean! :)

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          • Sketch says:

            i can handle myself quite well in a theological discussion. the problem with those is that while I look to learn or to get a different perspective – while most (though not all) fundie whack jobs look to “win”. they place their religion over their faith. One simply needs to look at the book of job to realize that religion is a tool of control – NOT of god… and have you ever noticed how Paul was in direct contradiction to Jesus in a LOT of ways? (Mark 2:15-17 vs. 1 Corinthians 5:11)…

            so seeing as jews don’t believe in “hell” as “christians” preach it today, and jesus did not contradict jewish teaching on this (or really anything save for key items), it is “reasonable” to suspect that jesus did not either. Also, since the jews considered their “version” of “hell” to be sheol, hades or in more common words, the grave – and jesus was in fact put into a grave (Matthew 12:40) – unless you’re going to get wrapped around the axle that he was in a tomb and not in the actual ground… if that’s the case, this conversation will end (2 Timothy 2:14). The belief in a fiery hell of torment actually originated with the greeks and their mythology about 400BC, with THOSE origins dating back to the cult of Osiris (~1800-1700BC). But, like the christmas and easter lies, christians simply took it over as part of their way to get converts and then used it as a fear mechanism to get people to conform.

            i will agree with you on many things like the state and the corporatacracy are in bed together – the state is no different than religion on that topic. but then you say I’m fearing the state? i don’t see YOU driving on the left side of the road or doing 70mph through a school zone – they can’t be THAT “evil”, just as religion usually gives a solid base – before they get all controlling on what you can do or not. As either a volunteer or paid EMT – i can walk away at any point (except in the middle of treating a patient) with no consequences. I am covered by the dept’s insurance, and the county and state backs THEM. so, in order to maintain that “protection”, i have to maintain the training standards – that they usually also set up or approve…. it is not the state, that i “fear”, but more so those “christian” brothers of yours who look to sue people for anything and everything. w/o state sponsorship (certification/license), i can still TRY to help and am covered somewhat by “good Samaritan” laws… however i could also do more harm than good and i could STILL get sued. the law does not CARE about your INTENTIONS. neither do “victims”. Also, if someone does not WANT your help, you get nailed with battery charges and well – it goes down hill from there. that aside – anyone here is free to take a class and get certified in ANYTHING (fire fighting/ems/etc..) after passing the exams (or not, if they don’t care). no state permission needed. no state permission needed to buy equipment or help people either. you DO need state permission to get on a county or state owned ambulance or private company permission to get on a private ambulance.

            In THIS situation the fact that these people are home SAFE wondering anything is proof that they did the right thing. a person who really wants to kill themselves, WILL do it – no calls for help. they may even take you with them. and for the record, no, your life (as a stranger) is not worth me destroying mine over – this is why we wear gloves, eye protection and so forth (notice people don’t have a problem with that) – i have no vested interest other than I’d rather not see you die, but its your CHOICE (something religion takes away from you by using fear). this wasn’t the snap decision of jumping on a grenade. You and everyone here are basing your “expressed actions” only on what this article states. no one was there at the time. so its really a mute point.

            btw, i passed my ITLS exam with a 94% – missed one :(

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        • Odd Questioner says:

          “…please tell me how religion and government are different?”

          Up until 1783, they mostly weren’t. That excuse sort of died a couple hundred years ago, though. ;)

          If you don’t believe me, then explain why this guy hasn’t been arrested yet: http://richarddawkins.net/

          (…and no, I’m not advocating that he be arrested – just pointing out that, well, his bit of intellectual empire strongly suggests that government and actual religion can indeed be separate entities now).

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          • Sketch says:

            how is that an “excuse”? if you don’t do what the state says you HAVE to do (i.e. taxes, laws, etc…), they send in SWAT and intimidate you via physical violence or imprisonment. if you don’t do what the CHURCH tells you to do, they threaten you with tales of hell fire, shunning, social abandonment and separation from god – as if THEY are the only way to get to him.

            tell me again what religion Job was?

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          • Odd Questioner says:

            “if you don’t do what the state says you HAVE to do (i.e. taxes, laws, etc…), they send in SWAT and intimidate you via physical violence or imprisonment.”

            Yes, and…

            “if you don’t do what the CHURCH tells you to do, they threaten you with tales of hell fire, shunning, social abandonment and separation from god – as if THEY are the only way to get to him.”

            So, which church are we talking about?

            (…nice trap, but it needed more leaves over the pit. ;) )

            Also, how do you so easily conflate physical threats by men, with the word of God? A government of men can only bother you when you’re alive, after all – a temporary proposition at best, given the timeline of eternity…)

            “tell me again what religion Job was?”

            I have a related question – whose government did Job live under?

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        • Gods Creation says:

          please tell me how religion and government are different?

          In many ways, organized religion and government are exactly alike. Especially if a Church is sanctioned by the IRS. Trust me, Jesus would not go into any church that I know of.

          Religion, or spirituality is an individual thing. Churches and government are collectives with different purposes.

          The main difference is that in the government, the corp is god even though it is a mere fictional entity created by the evil side of Man. In the church, God is a single entity that created Man and is bigger than Man himself.

          I fully understand why 25 years of organized religion would destroy a young mans belief in forces greater than himself. The beliefs of the collective are the only ones accepted, same as with government.

          I believe there is both negative and positive energies in the universe. All of us are a part of one or the other, and they struggle within us for control. God, the Almighty Creator, represents the positive and constructive forces of nature and the universe that are responsible for us being here. I am a creation of that positive force in whatever form it may take.

          The Bible, as I see it, is a guide to happiness while we are here. The teachings of Jesus are merely the path to inner peace and happiness in an unhappy world. It is helpful to many to have a “person like” being act as God. They can relate to something like themselves rather than something that is completely unknown and likely beyond Mans comprehension.

          What is the difference between government and religion?

          YOU

          That is the only thing different, sketch.

          It does not matter if you don’t go to church. It does not matter if you get a license. What does matter is that if there is not enough positive energy in the world, it will be overtaken by the negative forces at work.

          The corp cultivates those negative energies, church cultivates positive energies within the corporate framework.

          The choice is simple. You can allow the corporation or the church to control your energy, or you can do it yourself.

          Just don;t fool yourself into thinking there is no greater power than the corporation.

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    60. heterosexual FLAMER says:

      So you’re a mourning after poster child for abortion Etch a sketch?

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    61. Sheldon Plankton says:

      Two words: Lenny Skutnik

      Every human being should know what he did.

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    62. Gene says:

      As a both a career and volunteer firefighter I feel the need to way in here amongst the courtside commando’s that have proceeded to give their own opin’s on what they would do. Yes, it is our job to protect both lives and property and I would do it in a heartbeat. I would like to know if ANY of you have ever fought or responded with someone that wanted to take their lives ? I have been in scrapes with 100 pd women that were suicidal and they fought like a scalded dog, let alone fighting a 300 lb. man that is in 5 feet of water with currents, waves, submerged items, ect…When a person is drowning or in the act of suicide, the bodies adrenaline surges bascially giving the person the strength of 10 men, now compound that with the above mentioned water problems and you should have a better picture of what responders could face. Specialized equipment ? Yes..In 50 degree water it is necessary for suits. Rope ? Again, you have to get close to put them on and if he wants to die..that isnt going to happen until its too late. Chicken shits ?…Please, its so easy to name call anonymously…please come and ride a 24 hour shift with me…and find out what devotion is, and its more then a paycheck and a pension to many of us…

      So again, its easier to talk a good game rather then do it. I am sure that many of you have volunteer fire and EMS services in your towns so please feel free to sign up and do your communtity some good…

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      • Charlie says:

        “I would like to know if ANY of you have ever fought or responded with someone that wanted to take their lives ? ”

        Yes. And it doesn’t change my answer.

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    63. Red Leader says:

      Sheldon is right about meds that are available for depression.

      The problem as I see it is that in SHTF, every wacko is off their meds! This includes potential ax murderes, baby rapers, etc. There are millions of them!

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    64. Reach, throw, row, go…

      Two good swimmers and a rope could have saved this person. That said, this is a very unfortunate situation for all involved. I think it shows the decay of California, into a socialist statist state. I hope my state would have done better. Around here the firemen and ambulance / rescue people are volunteer, and we thank them for their service. When one of them dies, the community does something for their family, not the government.

      When tshtf, don’t depend on the government for anything.

      I have fond memories of my senior lifesaving class test as a teenager. I had the task of rescuing a fighting flailing tall blonde Bridgette Neilsen type who outweighed me by 40 pounds. Had to drag her out of the pool and setup to perform mouth to mouth. Ahh, to be a kid again.

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    65. texas_son says:

      It sometimes surprises me the reaction you get if you say the word God? I started my life as agnostic as the best of you. I woke up in this life I neither created or asked for and acted like the pond scum the documentaries would have you believe we evolved from. I learned to carve my body using weights to get what I desired and enjoyed the years partying and the night life that went with it. The king of all vanities (or so it seems to me now) is to have a 29 inch six pack waist, 19 and half inch biceps, and lats that flare out like dragon wings when you spread your back. King vanity, because you carry your body with you everywhere you go and it’s the first thing seen when you, ”in a detached manner” saunter by on the beach.
      God speaks to all of his children; only most never hear the small voice. One day, if God does speak to your heart directly then the true battle is on. The battle of your lesser lower self against who God would have you be. No Christian is perfect and it’s only by dusting yourself off every time you fall down that you are brought closer to the experience. Humility has become a close personal friend and confidant in my life. When I look back I can see the path I have tread but it is new country beyond the coming hill. By the same token one man’s path may be different than his neighbor; I don’t know anyone’s relation to God other than my own. I still find myself often bending down to knock the dust off me in a myriad of progressively (mostly) smaller ways but I “have found the one thing “Billy Crystal was looking for in the movie, City Slickers. Curly would be proud of me.
      So hold to your belief there is no power in all the heavens greater than yourself, it makes no difference? Everything that is done under Heaven that is not of God: whatever the vanity or sin is of equal value. It separates you from his presence. God speaks to all of his children at once and when your day comes your personal world will be forever changed… and yes even now at 56 with a double hernia operation I would wade out for you…God bless.

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    66. Jackie says:

      Good to read some of the comments from 15+ fire dpt employees and volunteers. My “experience” with suicide does not equal years only a few folks who have tried to commit suicide, so maybe I really do not know much about this subject, just what I personally experienced. One succeed but it took a week, one did not succeed … the others I do not know. Talking to the person has a powerful impact with or without training, even if they do not live. I am still having a difficult time understanding why someone could not at least tried to talk to the man at arms length, so he could not pull that someone down with him. I get the ocean temp., currents, etc. and that he was there on his own free will, adrenaline high, but just an attempt, even while he was in shallow water. I read he was saying he was going to kill himself prior to going out as far as he did. Could anyone have talked to him then? At least tried. I think this event would not have been so bad if at least one person attempted to talk to him.

      Now knowing that our fire dpts are limited on what rescues they are able to do due to either lack of training or lack of equipment makes me think it is up to us, the citizens in each county/city/town to go to our local fire dpts and see how we can either raise the money or fight the laws/government to assist these folks to do their job. If you live by a body of water, those fire dpt employees/volunteers should have the equipment/training to save people or attempt to … even in a suicide case.

      Maybe I still have a “disney world” type of belief but I still have faith in people to stand together and make a difference. (yeah, a little corny.) I, myself will go to my local fire dpt and see if they have restrictions on them due to the lack of equipment or training. I do not live by a body of water, but if I did, knowing what I learned from all these comments, I would want to make sure the fire dpt had the right equipment to save my family, friends, neighbors, and/or myself.

      Hopefully other folks who have made comments on this issue (including fire dpt employees/volunteers) will do the same thing.

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    67. Gods Creation says:

      “I think this event would not have been so bad if at least one person attempted to talk to him.”

      That is what a human being would have done, but apparently there were none. The corporation, however, was well represented.

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    68. EAGLEDOVE says:

      Hey Mac / moderator , love your new style for the site, but it seems like the WAR has just begun. The SHTF for real here at SHTFPLAN.

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      • Odd Questioner says:

        Nah – just a little debate. The trick is to learn from it, no matter who is saying what, or how comfortable/uncomfortable the message may seem.

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    69. I like the new look too….all except the manner in which the “reply” takes place. Not sure, maybe I am the only one….but after about 100 replies, it is hard and very time consuming to try and find the new posts since last visit, after 150, way too time consuming.

      Mac is there a way they can be highlighted….or maybe a “quote” button could be implemented, so the replies show up at the bottom instead up with in the thread making them harder to separate and find from posts already looked at….does that make sense ??

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    70. 11 Bravo says:

      I haven’t seen the original article on this…Did anybody film it with there phone or camera ? I find it hard to believe that fire/ems/police did not say a word to the guy….

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      • Sketch says:

        just ask “God’s Creation”. apparently he was there (just going by his statements of fact). I mean, he KNOWS no one tried anything. I guess that would include him as well…

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    71. Bloodyfellow says:

      It’s called a boat and a net….or even a rope. The guy was probably upset cause he got his water turned off!

      Baywatch 2012 should be some interesting viewing! Pam swims out to deliver drowning victim the memo…

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    72. JANE says:

      I must disagree w/ NetRanger (June 5, 2011 @12:30pm) on another issue. He said, “From what I’ve seen, most atheists are more into not believing in “religion” than not believing in “God”. …and for that, I give them the thumbs up.”
      _______________

      You CAN NOT separate Religion and God. The definition of “religion” is belief in and reverence for a supreme supernatural being or beings, often express by worship.

      1. Some call Him “God”, and others call Him by many different names.

      2. Often Atheists and their leaders have clearly stated, “We don’t believe in God, period”.

      3. Churches encourage people to live a moral life, encourage having family, and to have strong values.
      _______________

      Often communist wants its citizens to devote their lives to the total government rather than their own family.

      Any good leader will have a strong religious background, and he needs to understand the total picture and all its implications.

      .

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      • Sketch says:

        Jane – please tell us what religion Job was. if you can’t separate “religion” and god, this should be easy for you. just make sure you do the research.

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    73. JANE says:

      I should say:

      Often communist wants its citizens to devote their lives to the total government rather than their own family or their religion.

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    74. Dave says:

      People are slowly realizing that most cops are not on “our side”, rather, they are on whatever side gives them their paychecks & pensions.
      Stop depending on bureaucrats for your safety, it will only lead to your enslavement.

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    75. REB says:

      Another thought…does anyone suppose the PTB would be “evil and manipulative” enough to publish this type of thing(maybe even cause/encourage it) so as to cause enough outrage from the sheep(we cant allow this type of outrage to happen)to cause the same sheep to call for a funding increase(tax increases-new taxes-fees ect) for more equiptment and training for police and fire depts?
      Just asking!

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    76. Kevin says:

      Here is an inverse perspective.

      The worse the economy gets the greater the dependence and loyalty the employees of government and benefactors of the state will have to the authorities. One is very hesitant to bite the hand that feeds them. If you assume that things will get worse then you must also assume that injustice under color of law will also increase.

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    77. harry says:

      Dear Troops:

      Yesterday — Memorial Day — some people asserted, once again, that you are “defending our freedoms” overseas.

      Nothing could be further from the truth. Those people are just repeating tired old mantras. The reality is that you are not defending our freedoms with your actions overseas. In fact, it is the exact opposite. Your actions overseas are placing our freedoms here at home in ever-greater jeopardy.

      Consider your occupation of Iraq, a country that, as you know, never attacked the United States, making it the defender in the war and the United States the aggressor. Think about that: Every single person that the troops have killed, maimed, or tortured in Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks.

      Yet, the countless victims of the U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq have friends and relatives, many of whom have become filled with anger and rage and who now would stop at nothing to retaliate with terrorist attacks against Americans.

      Pray tell: How does that constitute defending our freedoms?

      It was no different prior to 9/11. At the end of the Persian Gulf War, the troops intentionally destroyed Iraq’s water and sewage facilities after a Pentagon study showed that this would help spread infectious illnesses among the Iraqi people.

      It worked. For 11 years after that, the troops enforced the cruel and brutal sanctions on Iraq that killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children. (See “America’s Peacetime Crimes against Iraq” by Anthony Gregory.) You’ll recall U.S. Ambassador to the UN Madeleine Albright’s infamous statement that the deaths of half-a-million Iraqi children from the sanctions were “worth it.”

      By “it” she meant the attempted ouster of Saddam Hussein from power. You will recall that he was a dictator who was the U.S. government’s ally and partner during the 1980s, when the United States was furnishing him with those infamous WMDs that U.S. officials later used to excite the American people into supporting your invasion of Iraq.

      The truth is that 9/11 furnished U.S. officials with the excuse to do what their sanctions (and the deaths of all those Iraqi children) had failed to accomplish: ridding Iraq of Saddam Hussein and replacing him with a U.S-approved regime.

      That’s what your post-9/11 invasion of Iraq was all about — to achieve the regime change that the pre-9/11 deadly sanctions that killed all those children had failed to achieve.

      No, not mushroom clouds, not freedom, not democracy, and certainly not defending our freedoms here at home. Just plain old regime change.

      In the process, all that you — the troops — have done with your invasion and occupation of Iraq is produce even more enmity toward the United States by people in the Middle East, especially those Iraqis who have lost loved ones or friends in the process or simply watched their country be destroyed.

      In principle, it’s no different with Afghanistan. I’d estimate that 99 percent of the people the troops have killed, maimed, or tortured in that country had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11.

      Why did you invade Afghanistan or, more precisely, why did President Bush order you to do so?

      No, not because the Taliban participated in the 9/11 attacks and, no, not because the Taliban were even aware that the attacks were going to take place

      President Bush ordered the troops to invade Afghanistan — and, of course, kill Afghan citizens in the process — because the Afghan government – the Taliban — refused to comply with his unconditional extradition demand. You will recall that the Taliban offered to turn bin Laden over to an independent tribunal to stand trial upon the receipt of evidence from the United States indicating his complicity in the 9/11 attacks.

      Bush responded to the Taliban’s offer by issuing his order to the troops to invade Afghanistan, kill Afghans, and occupy the country. In the process, U.S. officials installed one of the most crooked, corrupt, and dictatorial rulers it could find to govern the country, one who is so incompetent he cannot even hide the manifest fraud by which he has supposedly been elected to office.

      In the process of installing and defending the Karzai regime, the troops have killed brides, grooms, children, fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, uncles, aunts, cousins, friends, and countrymen, most of whom never attacked the United States on 9/11 or at any other time. They simply became “collateral damage” or “bad guys” for having the audacity to oppose the invasion and occupation of their country by a foreign regime. (It should be noted for the record that U.S. officials considered these types of “bad guys,” as well as Osama bin Laden and other fundamentalist Muslims, to be “good guys” when they were trying to oust Soviet troops from Afghanistan.)

      Was there another way to bring bin Laden to justice? Yes, the criminal-justice route, which was the route used after the 1993 terrorist attack on the World Trade Center.

      That’s right. Same target, different date. In fact, the accused terrorists — Ramzi Yousef in 1993 and Osama bin Laden in 2001 — were ultimately located in the same country, Pakistan.

      In Yousef’s case, he was arrested some three years after the attack, brought back to the United States, prosecuted, and convicted in federal district court. He’s now serving a life sentence in a federal penitentiary.

      No invasions, no bombings, no occupations, no killing of countless innocent people, no torture, no war on terrorism, and no anger and rage that such actions inevitably would have produced among the victims, their families, and friends.

      In bin Laden’s case, we instead got a military invasion and occupation of Afghanistan, where the troops have killed, maimed, tortured, and hurt countless people who had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks.

      How in the world have your invasions and occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq defended our freedoms here at home? Indeed, how have the assassinations and bombings in Pakistan, Yemen, Libya, and who knows where else defended our freedoms?

      All these things have accomplished is keeping foreigners angry at us, thereby subjecting us to the constant and ever-growing threat of terrorist retaliation here at home. As I have pointed out before, the U.S. military — that is, you, the troops — have become the biggest terrorist-producing machine in history. Every time you kill some Iraqi or Afghan citizen, even when accidental, ten more offer to take his place out of anger and rage.

      That’s the same thing that was happening prior to 9/11. In fact, there were some, including those of us here at The Future of Freedom Foundation, who were warning prior to 9/11 that unless the U.S. Empire stopped what it was doing to people in the Middle East (including the deadly sanctions on Iraq, the support of Middle East dictators, the stationing of U.S. troops near Islamic holy lands, and the unconditional money and armaments to the Israeli regime), Americans would be increasingly subject to terrorist attacks. On 9/11, we were proven right, unfortunately. (See Blowback: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire by Chalmers Johnson.)

      How does the constant threat of terrorist retaliation arising from your actions in Iraq and Afghanistan make us freer here at home, especially when you — the troops — are responsible for engendering the anger and rage that culminates in such threats, owing to what you are doing to people over there?

      Consider also what the U.S. government does to our freedoms here at home as a direct consequence of the terrorist threat that you, the troops, are producing over there. It uses that threat of terrorism to infringe upon our freedoms here at home! You know what I mean — the fondling at the airports, the 10-year-old Patriot Act, the illegal spying on Americans, the indefinite detention, the torture, the kangaroo tribunals, Gitmo, and the entire war on terrorism — all necessary, they tell us, to keep us safe from the terrorists — that is, the people you all are producing with your actions over there.

      In other words, if you all weren’t producing an endless stream of terrorists with your invasions, occupations, torture, assassinations, bombings, and Gitmo, the U.S. government — the entity you are working for — would no longer have that excuse for taking away our freedoms.

      This past Sunday, the Washington Post carried an article about American wives who were recently greeting their husbands on their return from Afghanistan. Newlywed Anne Krolicki, 24, commented to her husband on the death of one of her friends’ husband: “It’s a pointless war,” she said.

      That lady has her head on straight. She’s has a grip on reality, doesn’t deal in tired old mantras, and speaks the truth. Every U.S. soldier who dies in Iraq and Afghanistan dies for nothing, which was the same thing that some 58,000 men of my generation died for in Vietnam.

      Please don’t write me to tell me that you all are good people or that you’re “patriots” for simply following whatever orders you are given. All that is irrelevant. What matters is what you are doing over there. And what you are doing is not defending our freedoms, you are jeopardizing them

      Sincerely,

      Jacob G. Hornberger
      President
      The Future of Freedom Foundation
      http://www.fff.org

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    78. Johntaraz says:

      This story is a metaphor for what is happening to our local community, our state, our country, our world.

      No one wants to step up.

      Everyone sees themselves as someone who would.

      But when the time comes they don’t, and they won’t.

      The fact is, this would not happen in a small town or community, especially rural.
      The big cities have lost their humanity. If you live there you know, if you visit you will see it.

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      • Odd Questioner says:

        This may have to do with the fact that in smaller towns, folks already know that they are their only source of immediate help.

        In larger towns (or perhaps rather, larger crowds), folks assume that someone else will take care of things.

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    79. VRF says:

      hey all the next step would have been the cops beat the shit out of him (oh yeah in order to subdue him not to hurt him) arrest him and put him in prison for polluting the water..all they need is the public to give them a reason to think for them, and they will.

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    80. Sketch says:

      Odd Questioner says:
      June 5, 2011 at 10:32 pm

      “would go to prison for killing a federally protected endangered species”

      Nope. You’re allowed to kill an endangered species to defend life (notice I didn’t say “property”, I said “life”. Cops do it as well: http://www.1011now.com/home/headlines/Police_Kill_Mountain_Lion_in_Kearney_Neighborhood_121541364.html )

      true – but if you’re outside while the cat is inside – you’re not defending anything, are you? you see how circumstances change? how they may or may not apply? yet in the case above, most of you people are basing your anger on a SINGLE article with a single viewpoint. I searched for secondary articles on this and almost ALL of them quite the very same thing. the truth is – if you’re not there, you’ve got no room to critique the situation in anything other than an armchair fashion.

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      • Odd Questioner says:

        “true – but if you’re outside while the cat is inside – you’re not defending anything, are you?”

        Then your hypothetical loses all of its immediacy, and therefore logic. If the cat’s inside, you have the means to place your family in the car and call the local animal control, or approximately half a zillion other options become suddenly available to you (including waiting for the critter to either leave or die – the latter coming from your description of it as “mortally wounded”).

        I agree with the fact that the article presents the facts from a single viewpoint. OTOH, they’re still facts, are they not? I have zero problems with someone presenting alternate viewpoints to the story, as long as the facts are correct and no one is making up anything.

        Incidentally, It’s not anger, it’s frustration. Frustration at something indicative of our civilization at large, where people slowly but surely cease to give a crap about anyone they didn’t give birth to, have (or want to have) sex with, or get a paycheck from.

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        • Sketch says:

          frustration is fine. its easy to understand and identify with. but most of the people here act as if the ffs/ems were literally standing around with they thumbs up their butts not worried about doing anything. people act as if THEY weren’t frustrated either. has anyone here thought about how THEY feel? of course not.

          I don’t know of a single EMS worker that can leave the job AT the firehouse. we DO think of the patients we take care of. we DO wonder what we could have done better. We DO wonder about their outcomes. but you people think that since we’re “part of the system” we’re all about collecting a paycheck and wasting money, when in fact you all really have NO clue what its really about. THAT’S what sickens me about all this. you people have NO IDEA what its like. a bunch of keyboard cowboys taking potshots at people who aren’t here to defend themselves. You’re right. Its DISGUSTING that people have come to DEMAND HEROIC things from ordinary people, and then BITCH AND MOAN when they don’t get it. YOU people have taken things for granted.

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          • Odd Questioner says:

            Err, who is this “you people” that you refer to? If you can point to any instance where I have stated that they’re only doing the job for a paycheck, I’d love to see it.

            Incidentally, if I actually demanded heroics from ordinary people in that role? I wouldn’t own a single firearm, smoke alarm, fire extinguisher, first aid kit, etc.

            OTOH, a guy in neck-deep water, surrounded at a distance by dozens of individuals who ostensibly base their careers on helping folks stay alive? And their excuse was that no one had specific training (for something that only really requires a cool head, a friend, and some rope)?

            I suppose that unless specifically trained to extract members of the species felis catus out of arboreal growth, rescuing grandma’s cat out of a tree is out of the question now?

            Here’s the trick – *most* FDs and EMT crews don’t behave this way.

            Proof? The typical evening news broadcast is full of examples proving this. So why did these guys fall down on the job again?

            I have personally seen EMTs, firemen, and a sheriff’s deputy come running into a wreck with leaking butane everywhere, while I was in what was left of a minivan talking to that driver, trying to help the poor bastard not move his neck (I also had to break the passenger-side window just to keep the fumes from getting too ugly). An archived URL for the incident in question if you’re curious is here: http://ctif-hazmat.gasilci.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=42

            Does that somehow make me a hero? Hell, no – it only proves that I’m crazy. The real heroes are the guys who came to that guy’s aid knowing full well that an explosion was imminent. Fortunately, we all managed to get back in plenty of time.

            This incident is part of why I can point the finger at the Alemeda folks, and ask “WTF?”

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        • Sketch says:

          Odd Questioner –

          have you ever held someones hand while they were dying, and promised them that you’d tell their family they loved them? have you ever had to tell a 4 year old why her daddy won’t wake up? have you ever had to go LOOKING for a baby that was at one time in a car seat? ever had to tell a mother that her only son was killed on the motorcycle SHE bought him? have you ever been shit on by an old person with MRSA? puked on by a heroin fiend? do know how it feels to actually GIVE CPR? how the ribs break on the compressions?

          that’s about a month in the field. if YOU don’t care enough to do it, then don’t question how much the people that do DO it care.

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          • Odd Questioner says:

            Appeals to emotion so soon?

            No matter, as I completely fail to see where I deride an EMT or any first responder for actually doing their job. Could you point it out for me, perhaps?

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          • Sketch says:

            OQ – YOU are the one who said we don’t care. not me. straw man reply, coward.

            bottom line: get on a rig or stfu.

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          • Odd Questioner says:

            “YOU are the one who said we don’t care”

            Prove it. That’s all you have to do.

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    81. emptyhandkiller says:

      I am getting tired of all you windbags, analyzing one microscopically small incident to death. One good rifleman could have ended the drama in the first minute. One shot, one exploded skull. Incident over. And, yes, if I was the nutcase in the water, causing a disturbance, and costing taxpayers for no good reason, I give a good rifleman permission to blow my head off.

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      • Sketch says:

        how about a bad rifleman that could ‘wing’ you?

        Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • Odd Questioner says:

        That’s nice to know, but, err, aren’t you yourself presuming here?

        Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        • I am seeing more and more preppers that aren’t going to be preppers in a SHTF scenario…..they are going to be zombies of thee worst kind!

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          • Odd Questioner says:

            No kidding… at least the garden-variety zombies are going to be at least somewhat open to reason, especially if they see food/shelter/water in their immediate future by behaving themselves.

            The folks who are praying for Armageddon to come early, and are drooling for the opportunity to go play “Mad Max”? Yeah – definitely the worst kind.

            I only hope that my guess as to their eventual fate (hunted down by a band or local community being harassed, or simply buried alive in their bunkers) comes true sooner rather than later.

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    82. Sketch says:

      Odd Questioner – you still have not answered my question – and i think it lies at the heart of this topic – what gives you the right to tell someone they can’t take their own life? what gives you the right to force your “help” on someone?

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      • Odd Questioner says:

        “what gives you the right to tell someone they can’t take their own life? ”

        It isn’t a question of “rights”, since the decision made is almost not made with a clear, rational mind. I’d love to see evidence otherwise if you have it.

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        • Sketch says:

          how do you know it WASN’T made with a clear and rational mind? You’re asking me to prove a negative which a bright guy like you should know is impossible.

          I’d like to see YOUR evidence that he wasn’t. Being from Oregon (if i read that right), you’re under the impression that EVERYONE who is going to commit suicide is mentally ill? so the bone cancer, MS, ALS or whatever disease they have, or what ever reason they have isn’t enough for you? but its enough for THEM to end THEIR suffering or solve whatever problem/question THEY have. stop making it about YOU.

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          • Odd Questioner says:

            “…how do you know it WASN’T made with a clear and rational mind?”

            Talk to folks who tried to commit suicide in the past – most (if not all) of them will tell you just that.

            “Being from Oregon (if i read that right), you’re under the impression that EVERYONE who is going to commit suicide is mentally ill?”

            Nope – you made that assumption of mental illness, not me. Temporary depression (finances, romances gone wrong, etc), influence of drugs and/or alcohol, brainwashing… there are multiple causes of suicidal thoughts that have nothing to do with having a clear and rational mind.

            Oregon law originally advised that all people who want to commit physician-assisted suicide undergo a psychiatric consult, to specifically weed out anyone who is not in his/her right mind. That advisement is mostly ignored.

            Also, why are you operating on the assumption that the one and only solution to suffering involves suicide?

            Has nothing to do with me, really, nor did I reference myself in any relevant discussion on the matter (so, err, no strawmen, please).

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    83. Sketch says:

      Odd Questioner

      you said “how long before someone else decides whether you live or die, even if you’re not even sick?”

      YOU already HAVE! you’re DEMANDING that EVERY person must LIVE based on YOUR morals. EVERY ONE of the complaints on here come down to THIS VERY PROBLEM. People have NO RIGHT to FORCE their morals on ANYONE ELSE. It takes away individual liberty AND “Free Will”.

      \this format would be MUCH better if it allowed more replies….

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      • Gods Creation says:

        Sketch says

        “People have NO RIGHT to FORCE their morals on ANYONE ELSE. It takes away individual liberty AND “Free Will”.

        You are absolutely right about that, but from the other side of your mouth you seem to grant that RIGHT to the government corp and expect everyone to apply your beliefs about the supremacy of the corp.

        You should understand the gov corp has NO RIGHTS AT ALL. It is not a creation of the People, nor is it funded by them with their money. Everything it does it does in the character of a private corporation by it’s use of privately issued debt currency.

        The Laws of the People and the laws of the corporation come from two different sources. The Peoples Law comes from God, is codified in the Constitutions, and applies to the government.

        The corp law comes from the corp in statutes and applies to the things it creates, not the People. It uses licenses and fraudulently established contracts it creates with the People, often by FORCE AND FRAUD, to convert them into subjects of the corp and it’s law.

        Do you obtain licenses on your own “Free Will” or because you fear what will happen if you don’t?

        You, as an officer of the corporation through licensing, have made your choice. By recognizing that a legal fiction has the RIGHT to require anything of you, you have effectively surrendered your own “Free Will” to it for protection and limited liability for your own actions.

        The thing you need to consider is whether or not you can force Public Policy on the People as though it were Law when those People DO NOT CONSENT.

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        • Sketch says:

          where did I grant the state ANYTHING? at best i stated that SOMEONE needs to maintain a set of standards for the safety of the general public (i.e. civil engineering requirements, etc…). seeing as how both private industry and the state have failed, there isn’t much alternative. I guess one way to solve the problem would be to disallow the state to do business at all and only issue requirements/standards, etc… I don’t know. I’m open to ideas.

          apparently you haven’t read much of my replies. You don’t NEED state license or certification to help people you DO need it to use state resources. I don’t have an extra $500k for an ambulance, so I’ll use the county and state vehicles.

          you’re a hypocrite as YOU and probably ALL of the other “the state is bad ALL the time” people here have a STATE ISSUED driver’s license and you pay taxes. most probably even have a passport. so fuck you.

          \also, my comment was directed specifically to “Odd Questioner”. Not you.

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          • Sketch says:

            er… that should read “my INITIAL comment”. the reply was definitely directed at you, GC.

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          • Gods Creation says:

            Sketch says

            potty mouth language I will not repeat

            There is no call for that kind of tone and profanity.

            Where did you grant the state anything? When you accept a license you become the representative of the gov corp just by having it. It (and its holder) is property of the corporation. You have given up any choice to allow others to make them for you.

            You can not serve two masters. You have chosen to be a part of the corporation and sacrificed your Free Will as a part of the bargain. You do what the State says or it will take away your license. What part of that do you not understand?

            As for being a hypocrite, I think not. I have not carried a drivers license in a LONG time. If I am ever asked for one by a corp officer, I will simply say through a small crack in the window of a locked door that I am not in possession of any government property at this time, am I free to go.

            Will I be arrested? They will need to break into my truck because I will not get out of it on COMMAND. That is private property and I am protected only so long as I stay inside of it.

            As for taxes, many here already know what I think about that. I do not work under a form W-4, or license, and do not use a SSN for any reason, thus I make no “wages” that can be taxed and no reports are made. Thus I have not filed a IRS tax return since the early 90′s because I have had no tax due, no refund to process, and no reports are made because I work in the FREE MARKET under my own authority granted by the Almighty God.

            Mind you, I am not a tax protestor but I have read the law and understand it for the fraud it is. Should I ever get a corporate job that requires a form W-4 and an SSN, that could create a potential liability. Won’t happen.

            The “state is bad ALL the time” people might be right if you consider the existence of the corporation is contrary to the law of the land. I guess for those like you if a robber gives you drink of water after putting the gun to your head, he is not all bad.

            The State now only protects it’s own interest (or that of the creditors of the United States) and not that of the People. It is solely because of the source of its funding.

            It is one thing to be a free Man, and another to be a slave that thinks he is free because his master tells him so.

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      • Odd Questioner says:

        This is easy:

        What if someone’s moral structure says that it’s okay to ‘marry’ and have sex with a child? See also Warren Jeffs and the FLDS compound in Colorado City, Utah. Their moral structure can be summed up as: ‘if it’s old enough to bleed, it’s old enough to breed’.

        Would calling for that practice to be stopped, be considered imposing my morals, do you figure?

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        • Sketch says:

          yes, but not because of morality. as it imposes on the rights of the child – who would not be old enough to understand the consequences. NOT for the reasons you believe it to be. then there are also the rights of the parent to think about… its not as black and white as you seem to think it is…

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          • Odd Questioner says:

            You almost slipped out of that one… :)

            However, there’s something missing: What rights? Whose rights? And why are you claiming rights and morality to be mutually exclusive (by completely denying the moral component of decrying child abuse)?

            Also, these “rights” you claim – what are they based on, anyway?

            I’ll give you a hint: it’s morality. Whose morals or what morals, well, that’s a whole other discussion. OTOH, it’s not hard to see the moral component and source of pretty much all common law (of anywhere you care to name, really).

            And yeah, there is no such thing as black and white. On the other hand, there are situations which should clear demarcations between right and wrong, no? I believe the original article was an example of this. You may not.

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    84. VRF says:

      look all around the world..Floods, Fires, extreme weather..no not just here folks, other countries too

      With floods and fires and huge natural events taking out huge amounts of farming land..and what does that bring?
      Famine

      are you getting ready people?

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    85. Gene says:

      How about the Coast Guard ? They have boats that go into shallow water and have training and specialized equipment for water rescue…

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    86. Freeport56 says:

      Arm yourselves, no one else will protect you. hell, they do not protect you now!

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    87. emptyhandkiller says:

      I wish every poster on here could fly out to the Montana wilderness and just go at it. I may not win, as there are hundreds of you, but I did learn to rip out throats from watching the movie “Road House” at least 50 times. I have that move down pat now. I think I would rip out BJ’s throat first. I would love to go down fighting, with at least a dozen throats at my feet. That sweet feeling of fighting for your own life! Afterward, if you succeed, there is no better feeling than to have lived in a fight to the death.

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      • Charlie says:

        You have to say a good one-liner before you make the kill. Like,…,okay, I got it. You reach in and grab my heart and then pull it out and show it to me and say…..”sorry Charlie.”

        eh?

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      • Don’t plan on going to Montana anytime soon, no money, but Lord knows I would love to see the area. However if you ever find yourself in West Michigan….look me up.

        Good luck & may the best man win ;-)

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      • Odd Questioner says:

        That’s easy:

        Just wait in town until you die of exposure, starvation, or old age.

        You do realize that true survival doesn’t require pretending you’re tough, right?

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    88. heterosexual FLAMER says:

      SWEET!

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    89. Lostwages says:

      I don’t know what to think, I worked firefighting for almost 18 years, some paid, some volunteer. I know I don’t like hearing of things like this. One departments problems reflect poorly on all of us. I know a lot of departments in California are facing very hard times right now due to slim budgets and heavy politics. Plus more and more departments are becoming unionized and this can also have a bearing on policies and procedures. All I can say is the firefighters I’ve known over the years were dedicated to saving life’s and serving the public. Some I’ve known give their lives trying to save others! They do not deserve the kind of a relationship this publicity brings them! My only other thought on this is that I’m glad I’m not having to be seen in the Alameda Fire Departments uniform, it can be hard to hold your head up after an event like this and takes a large toll on moral! I don’t know the facts behind this case, but in all fairness to these firefighters, I’ll bet most of them are no different then the ones I’ve had the honor to work with and I wish all of you the very best!

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      • Charlie says:

        Lostwages,

        I, for one, would never extrapolate any judgement based on this incidence to firefighters as a whole. 99.9% of you are A1 guys in my book.

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    90. Gman says:

      people: don’t monday quarter back. you were not there. on the outside its seems horrible (it may have been) only the guys that were there know for sure. i face similar circumstances where our dive team has been dismantled due to budget cuts. we are not supposed to go in the water any more because we dont train for it. water rescue is dangerous shit period. some of you said what if it were your family member committing suicide, conversely what if it were your family member that attempted a rescue and then drowned after ignoring policy. there is likely a lot more to this that none of us will ever know. don t be so fast to judge most sworn persons are good people that would do extra ordinary things to save lives. one last thing: to whoever said our firefighters are volunteers (as to say any one paid is selfish) see how many would still volunteer after doing 3000+ runs a year per apparatus.

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    91. emptyhandkiller says:

      Hey, Lostwages and GMan, you guys are far too nice to be posting here! If you two flew out to Montana, I don’t know if I would have the heart to rip your throats out! You are ruining the whole feeling that I had. Rats!

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    92. http://www.thetrumpet.com/?q=8338.7027.0.0

      Excellent article that is spot on about the obvious lack of natural affection in America in these end times. Uses the story here of the Alameda Ca man drowning while people stood and watched and compares it to an animal video of how water buffalo came to the rescue against 6 or so lions.

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    93. MSWorkerBee says:

      For those of you who keep saying, essentially, “He wanted to die, so let him,” you have no idea about depression — a very dangerous disease (chemical imbalances in the brain).

      It robs people of their reason, will, and perspective on all things.

      Given the length of time (40 minutes) anyone had to respond, SOMEONE could have saved this man.

      Especially if ropes and personnel were present at the scene (I don’t know this), then the behavior of ALL concerned (civilians and government workers alike) is reprehensible.

      I understand about preserving one’s job in these terrible times. At least the rescue workers could have provided civilians with equipment and some assistance.

      This sounds much more like a union policy — “Hey, it’s not my job.”

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    94. I wonder if some of these asses would let “policy” cost them their own life?

      And MSworker bee, your spot on about depression

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    95. true patriot for freedom says:

      And these jack***** are bankrupting cities all across America with their grotesquely burdensome pensions in which they get 90% salary for the rest of their lives–for doing–in this case–absolutely nothing. Despicable..

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    96. PatriotWarMonger says:

      This drowning may be a simple policy case. However, the LEOs that I know (and I know a few) have all told me that when SHTF, their #1 priority is protecting their OWN family, not me or mine. Can’t say I blame them. Of course, I don’t expect the police to protect me anyway – at any time – and neither should you. Take responsibility for your own welfare. You should ALREADY have in place the basic items and training you will need. Guns, ammo, food, water, basic sheltering, first aid and a some knowledge of how to use all of these is a good start. The police cannot protect you under the best of circumstances. Expecting them to protect you in the worst of circumstances is just plain stupid.

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