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Top Post-Collapse Barter Items And Trade Skills
The concept of private barter and alternative economies has been so far removed from our daily existence here in America that the very idea of participating in commerce without the use of dollars or without the inclusion of corporate chains seems almost outlandish to many people.However, the fact remains that up until very recently (perhaps the last three to four decades) barter and independent trade was commonplace in this country. Without it, many families could not have survived. Whether we like it or not, such economic methods will be making a return very soon, especially in the face of a plunging dollar, inflating wholesale prices, erratic investment markets, and unsustainable national debts. It is inevitable; financial collapse of the mainstream system ALWAYS leads to secondary markets and individual barter. We can wait until we are already in the midst of collapse and weighted with desperation before we take action to better our circumstances, or, we can prepare now for what we already know is coming. In today’s “modern” globalist economy, we have relied upon centralized and highly manipulated trade, forced interdependency, senseless and undisciplined consumption, endless debt creation, welfare addiction, and the erosion of quality, as a means to sustain a system that ultimately is DESIGNED to erode our freedoms not to mention our ability to effectively take care of ourselves. We have been infantized by our financial environment. In the near future, those who wish to live beyond a meager staple of government handouts (if any are even given) will be required to make a 180 degree reversal from their current lifestyle of dependency and immediate gratification towards one of self sufficiency, personal entrepreneurship, quality trade, and a mindset of necessity, rather than unfounded excess. This means that each and every one of us will not only be driven to form barter networks outside the designated confines of the mainstream, we will have to become active producers within those networks. Each and every one of us will need to discover practical goods and skills that will be in high demand regardless of economic conditions. Being that our society has all but forgotten how this kind of trade works, let’s examine a short list of items as well as proficiencies that are sure to be highly sought after as the collapse progresses…
Top Priority Goods To be sure, this list is a summary of items that will have high value during and after a breakdown scenario. I welcome readers to post their own ideas for trade goods below this article. The following is merely a framework which you can use to get started, and was compiled using actual accounts of post collapse trade from the Great Depression, to Bosnia, to Argentina, to Greece, etc. These are items and skills that people were literally begging for after financial catastrophe occurred in numerous separate events. Water Filtration: Stock up on water filters. Learn how water filtration works. Even make your own water filters using cloth, activated charcoal, and colloidal silver. Everyone will want to trade with you if you have extra filtration on hand. During economic breakdowns, especially in countries like Argentina, and Bosnia, which had more modern, city based populations, the first thing to disappear was clean water. Always. In some cases, the tap water still runs, but is filled with impurities, and needs to be boiled. Boiling does not remove bad tastes or smells, however, and clean filtered water will be in demand. Seeds: Non-GMO seeds are a currency unto themselves. They can last for years if stored properly, and everyone will want them, even if they don’t have land to plant them. Get enough for yourself, and then purchase twice as much for trade. Fresh Produce: Ever heard of scurvy? Probably. Ever had scurvy? Probably not. Believe me, you don’t want to have it. Your body essentially begins to fall apart slowly, and the result is an ugly boil and sore filled complexion, the loss of teeth and hair, and the eventual failure of internal organs. Don’t think you can live on beef jerky and canned beans for months on end. You need fresh vegetables and fruits, and the vitamins they supply. Anyone with a well managed garden and a few fruit trees is going to do very well in barter. Vitamin supplements would also be a practical investment. Long Shelf Life Foods: This one should be obvious, but you may be surprised how many preppers, even though aware of the danger in the economy, do not have ample stored foods.The rationalizations abound, but usually, you are dealing with a person who has a heavy hunting background, and believes he will be able to procure whatever food he wants whenever he wants with his trusty bolt action rifle and a few hours in the woods. Don’t fall into this foolish trap. Thousands if not millions of other hungry, destitute people will likely have the same idea, combing the forest for deer, only running into (and perhaps shooting at) each other. In every single account of modern economic collapse I have read, the people involved kick themselves brutally for not stocking more food that didn’t require refrigeration. Even those that were moderately prepared stated that they wished they had stored twice as much as they did. Sealed food kits would be highly valued trade items, as long as they contained necessities like grains (wheat or rice store well), salt (the human body will not function without salt), honey or maple syrup (the body needs sugars), and powdered milk, peanut butter, or any other foods with fat content (the body needs fats). Prepackaged freeze-dried foods are more expensive to stock, but they are, of course, easy to trade. Food Producing Animals: Chickens are great for eating, but they also produce eggs. Cows and Goats can be slaughtered, but they also produce milk. Sheep can be easily herded towards your dinner plate, but they also produce wool. Rabbits make a good stew, but they also produce lots of other rabbits. In terms of barter, these animals will be life savers, as well as a solid source of trade income. Dual purpose livestock are really where it’s at for those who have even an acre of land, and many of them (except cattle) tend to feed themselves easily if left to wander your property. You can trade eggs, milk, wool, etc, that they produce. Not to mention, fetch serious value for trading the animal itself. Solar Power: Solar power is so overlooked by most barter organizations and survivalists in general that it’s astonishing. If every home in America had at least two large solar panels on the roof, I would not be half as worried about collapse as I am today. My suspicion is that many preppers believe that after a breakdown, we will all return to some kind of Agrarian pre-electric age where everything is lit with oil lamps. This is silly. If I have my LED lamp with rechargeable batteries, I’m certainly not going to rely on less effective burning lamps that depend on a finite fuel supply. And, I’m certainly not going to give up the advantages of nightvision, radio communications, or refrigeration if I can help it. The key is to ensure that you have a continuous means of diverting electricity to these goods. This already exists in the form of solar power. Depending on your budget, you can purchase solar panels that can be folded and carried with you for charging batteries, or, you can purchase entire arrays and battery banks that run your whole house. Those without electricity WILL want electricity, and solar is an excellent barter item. Wind generators, as well as water driven generators (as used often in Bosnia) are also a consideration. People that have the knowledge to set up these systems for others will not have trouble finding trading partners. Firewood: Even with solar power, home heating will become a major concern for every household during and after a breakdown. If you can avoid running your battery bank out on inefficient space heaters, you will. The best way to do this is with a wood stove, or a fireplace.Those without any electricity will scour their immediate areas for loose wood, then move on to chopping down random trees for fuel. This is one of the few instances, ironically, that those in urban environments would have an advantage, being that dry wood for burning is literally everywhere in the city. During the Great Depression, families would often sneak into abandoned homes and apartment buildings to dismantle sticks of furniture, or even the walls, to use as firewood. A small, well insulated home can be heated with as little as two cords of wood every winter.Larger drafty homes require as much as twenty cords per winter. A “cord’ of wood is a stack of split timber around four feet wide, four feet high, and eight feet long. This wood is “aged”, or dried for at least a year after being cut, so that it burns cleaner, and creates much more heat than freshly felled timber. When the general public begins to rediscover the need for aged cord wood, those with timberland will have a prized commodity on their hands for barter. A disciplined cutting routine would be essential. Only cutting enough timber (of the right maturity) to create a decent supply while not erasing the whole forest for a single year of profit.Those traders with the correct knowledge will do very well in a barter economy. Gasoline And Oil: This is a tough one, because its hard to predict how much petroleum the U.S. will be able to import or produce on its own during a collapse, and its very difficult to store for long periods of time. If you hear news that the wars in the Middle East have expanded even further, or that OPEC is decoupling from the dollar, you might want to run to the nearest station and fill as many storage cans as possible, along with a little bit of added ‘gas saver’ which helps keep it stable longer. Initially, people will be dueling to the death for gas and oil. I have little doubt. After the price hits $15, $30, $60 a gallon due to hyperinflation, and a little time passes, I think people will begin finding ways to live without it, or they will reduce its use to emergency tasks. Desire for gas will always be there, especially in agricultural areas where one tractor could help sow the seeds that feed an entire town. But beyond storage, I would suggest learning ways to distill your own corn ethanol and alcohol based fuels. This is where the real barter potential is. Silver And Gold: I placed precious metals in the middle of this list for a reason. Concerns in a collapse situation will be varied, and the manner in which a derailment progresses will also determine the order of needs in a barter community. In a Mad Max scenario where there is little to no community, or the construction of any semblance of economy is impossible; sure, gold and silver will not be very high on most people’s lists. Has this ever happened in recorded history? No. Gold and silver have remained common currencies for thousands of years despite any catastrophe. This is why I have to laugh at those people who undercut precious metals or claim that because you “can’t eat them” they will not be important. In Argentina, in the midst of complete meltdown and monetary chaos, when people were shooting each other in the streets for food on a daily basis, gold and silver became king, and still are. Barter networks that have formed in Argentina love to trade for anything made out of gold or silver, because precious metals are the only tangible form of currency in existence there. Being able to trade goods is fantastic, but sometimes, you may not have what another person wants.Do you go out to find someone who does, trade with them, then, try to find the guy who turned you down? No. If you have any meaningful localized commerce in place, then you should also have a common medium of exchange, and precious metals are the only thing that safely fits the mold, because they cannot be artificially reproduced or fabricated. Their rarity and their longevity make them the perfect method of common trade. Even if the worst of the worst occurs, rebuilding will result in the immediate resurgence of trade, and the immediate need of a new currency. Gold and silver will come back, as it always has, and always will. Every potential barter network should be including gold, silver, and maybe copper, on its list of accepted alternative currencies, and the values of said metals should be weighed by the inherent supply and demand of the community. The “official” market value ( which is very manipulated) should only be used as a loose guide. Firearms And Ammo: Another obvious one. The problem is, the selection of calibers is so varied within the U.S. that stocking anything that will be needed by everyone is very difficult. The only recourse is to stick with common military calibers, such as 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, .223, 7.62 by 39, 7.62 by 51 (.308), 12 gauge, .410, and 20 gauge shotgun shells, and the ever pervasive .22. Stocking these calibers will result in a much greater chance of trade. I can think of no instance of societal disintegration that did not lead to horrible violence. In places where firearms are outlawed, the carnage is always much worse. Criminals easily get their hands on weapons, while law abiding citizens are left defenseless. Governments take liberties with the people, while the populace cowers. Accounts of torture, rape, murder, and genocide, are abundant in the face of hard economic times. EVERYONE should be armed, and as reality sets in, even those who clamored to outlaw guns will be clamoring to get one. Of course, laws today very strictly regulate our ability to barter firearms, but post collapse, no one will care much. Ammo reloading will be a useful skill in light of the fact that homemade manufacture of ammo is very difficult. The nationwide ammo supply will dwindle very quickly, except for those pockets of people who smartly stockpile for trade. Body Armor: That’s right. Any kind of body armor is as good as gold in a collapse environment.People in countries across the world wish they had it, and would trade almost anything for it.When you live in a place where a random gun shot (a minute by minute occurrence in many countries), from a criminal’s weapon, or more likely a police or military weapon, could bounce off the curb or through your car windshield, and into your chest, you begin to respect the necessity of Kevlar. The fact that body armor is relatively cheap and is easily obtained in the U.S. should be taken advantage of by barter networks. This advantage may not exist in a couple of years. Tazers And Pepper Spray: Easy to purchase and stockpile here in America. Better than nothing when facing armed attackers. Disables without death (in most cases), and easier on the conscience. Trades well. Various Tools: A garden hoe may be a novelty item to most suburbanites and city dwellers now, but soon, it will be a mainstay tool. If you have extra, they will come to you for barter. I’m not going to list every tool in existence here, but I suggest using common sense. What tools do you see being required for daily use? What would YOU need post collapse? Pesticides: I’m big on organic food and healthy eating, but if my life is on the line, I’m spraying my crops down with whatever poison I can find. Unless you have years of experience with natural pest deterrence methods, then I suggest you do the same, especially in that first year of calamity. A hoard of locusts could annihilate your crop within a day given the chance, and should be dealt with using the most powerful means available. Cockroach and rat poisons will also be huge sellers, guaranteed. Vermin thrive in unkempt human environments, whether in the country or the city, and with them comes disease.Diseases you thought had disappeared off the face of the Earth, like bubonic plague or small pox, will make a comeback in cities, where streets of death and sewage act like enormous Petri dishes (remember New Orleans after Katrina? Imagine if that had never been cleaned up). Stock pesticides, even if they offend your environmental sensibilities. You’ll use them, trust me.And, people will trade whatever they can for them. Warm Clothing: The world is awash in textiles and clothing. Using clothes as your primary means of trade is not necessarily the best plan. However, most of the clothes made around the world are very poor quality, and are not designed for harsh environments. Clothes made specifically for harsh cold or rough wear are harder to some by, and are often very expensive.This is where you would want to focus your investments. Gortex, for instance, could give you incredible bartering potential. Wool socks are a rarity (how many people do you know with more than two pairs of wool socks?). Water resistant and water proof jackets and overcoats, boots, well made hiking shoes, and waterproofing chemicals and sprays will be needed within trade networks. The ability to make these items, or repair them, will also be valued. Medicines: This is another difficult item to procure, mainly because doing so often gets you flagged as a possible drug dealer. Certain items aren’t too hard to come by and store, though, and could be life saving barter material in the future. Antibiotics are handed out like candy by doctors today, so storing any extra you have away for trade may be a good strategy. Painkillers are another medical miracle that doctors seem to sprinkle out of helicopters without a second thought. With the risk of injury increasing one hundred fold after a financial tsunami, I suspect even mere aspirin would put a smile on the face of any barter networker. Eventually, natural medicines and herbs are going to have to move to the forefront, as industry medicines begin to disappear, or become so expensive they are unobtainable. Stocking such herbs and vitamins would be smart, for protecting oneself, not to mention, its savvy business sense. Toiletries: Yes, yes, we all hear about how great toilet paper will be as a barter item, and how preppers plan to demand cows, trucks, and beach-front property, in return for packages of the silken quilty-soft huggable rolls of goodness. I don’t disagree that it will be highly desired at first. People don’t change their habits that quickly. But let’s face it; toilet paper is a luxury item in a post collapse environment, not a necessity. People are going to eventually go back to older methods of hygiene, like using strips of washable cloth. It might sound gross to us now, but hey, did you think we were going to start using poison ivy and pinecones? Stock toilet paper, but don’t treat it as a priority. Focus more on cleaning items like soap, toothpaste, and bleach, as well as chemicals that cause human waste to quickly biodegrade.Staying clean is VERY important, because the alternative is catching a nasty bacterial infection that may kill you, when in more peaceful and comfortable times, it may have just given you slightly irritating intestinal distress. The rest of the country will come around to this way of thinking in short order, and many people will come to you for the cleaning goods you stockpiled. Specialty Items: There are many circumstances that are hard to predict, circumstances that could severely affect barter markets and what items come into demand. For example; a nuclear event, as is in progress in Japan, could just as easily strike the U.S. There are 104 nuclear power plants in the U.S., not to mention the threat of a small nuclear attack (or false flag). The market for goods such as potassium iodide pills and Geiger counters would explode (potassium iodide suppliers were inundated with orders from around the world after Fukushima). How many people do you know with a Geiger counter? I’m one of the few I know with one, and I know preppers across the country! In the wake of a fallout situation, knowing what is contaminated with radiation and what isn’t, knowing if it’s even safe to go outside, is imperative. Having an extra Geiger counter could help you barter your way into any number of goods. A biological event might bring medical grade particulate masks to the top of people’s lists, as well as disinfectants and even hazmat suits. It’s an ugly thing to imagine, but for those who plan to engage in independent trade, it’s a likelihood that must be considered.
Top Priority Skills Provided below is a brief list of skills which have served people well in various economic downturns, and will do the same for you in this country. Keep in mind that almost any skill that other people cannot do well has potential for trade, but some skills are more sought after than others. In my research, it is those people who are able to produce their own goods as well as effectively repair existing goods that have the greatest potential for survival in a barter market.Next, are those people who have specific abilities that are difficult to learn and who have the knack for teaching those abilities to others. If you do not have any of these skills, or perhaps only one, then it would be wise to begin learning at least one more now. Keep in mind that competition will very much exist in a barter economy, so knowing as many skills as possible increases your chances of success. Mechanic, Engine Repair Welding Blacksmithing Firearms Repair, Ammo Reloading Construction Architect, Home Reinforcement Agriculture, Farming Expertise, Seed Saving, Animal Care Bee Keeping Doctor, Medical Assistant Veterinarian Well Construction, Water Table Expertise Engineer, Community Planning, Manufacturing, Electrical Firearms Proficiency, Security, Self Defense Planning Martial Arts Training Wild Foods Expert Hunting Chemist Sewing, Textiles Soap Making, Candle Making, Hygiene Products Small Appliance Repair Electronics Repair HAM Radio Expert Homeschooling, Tutoring Again, there are definitely many more trades of value that could be learned. This list is only to help you on your way to self sufficiency and entrepreneurship in an Alternative Market.Unfortunately, too many Americans have absolutely no skills worth bartering in a post collapse world. Bringing Back The American Tradesman Barter networking is a powerful tool for countering the affects of depression, hyperinflation, stagflation, globalization, and beyond. But, networks require that participants actually have necessary goods and services to trade. In only half a century or less, American culture has been sterilized of nearly all its private trade skills. We have lost our desire to produce, and have been relegated to the dregs of a retail nightmare society dependent entirely on consumption and debt. This is going to change, one way, or another. We can change on our own, or we can wait until fear and desperation force us to make hard choices. I would rather forgo the desperation and the painful fall into the gutter. It makes little sense. The bottom line is, if you wish to survive after the destruction of the mainstream system that has babied us for so long, you must be able to either make a necessary product, repair a necessary product, or teach a necessary skill. A limited few have the capital required to stockpile enough barter goods or gold and silver to live indefinitely. The American Tradesman must return in full force, not only for the sake of self preservation, but also for the sake of our heritage at large.Without strong, independent, and self sufficient people, this country will cease to be. This article has been generously contributed for your reading pleasure by Brandon Smith of Alt-Market.com. You can contact Brandon Smith at: brandon@alt-market.com Join Alt-Market today, find a barter network in your area, or start your own. Insulate yourself and your family from economic collapse before it is too late. Author:
Brandon Smith Copyright Information: This content has been contributed to SHTFplan by a third-party or has been republished with permission from the author. Please contact the author directly for republishing information. 302 Comments... |
One bit…
“Ammo reloading will be a useful skill in light of the fact that homemade manufacture of ammo is very difficult. The nationwide ammo supply will dwindle very quickly, except for those pockets of people who smartly stockpile for trade.”
Having a proficiency in reloading (it was a cheap way to keep me in bullets back when I shot in IPSC events), I find this bit to be, well, highly incomplete.
I say this because you’re going to need to stockpile like hell on at least two different gunpowders (fast-burning for pistols, long-burning for rifles), primers for each caliber and cartridge type you intend to reload, and spare presses, spare dies (for each caliber and type), measurement tools, extractors, micrometers, and etc. Oh, and you’d better have at least two very good reference manuals, as well as lots of pencils and notebooks.
Did I mention that this stuff (both consumables and tools) is hella expensive?
…and .22 LR rimfire, the most common cartridge out there? Forget it. You’re not going to be able to safely concoct your own primer paste, let alone recycle the brass and take that little dent off the back. No sane human being reloads those things now.
Overall, you’re going to have a very tough time adequately prepping for a life of cartridge reloading.
Long-term TEOTWAWKI? Not really all that viable. Unsealed gunpowders will soak up moisture like crazy, and normally use a nitrocellulose-based formula, instead of the ancient sulfur-charcoal-saltpeter recipe that muzzleloaders, or “black powder” guns use. Brass wears out – no sane person would re-use a brass cartridge more than three time (maybe four for certain calibers), so you’re going to need clean brass. Steel cartridges (think: common AK-47 stuff) are completely unusable after you use it once – you might be able to reload one in desperation, but you’re going to waste a lot of primers and even points in the process, with maybe a 25% success rate. Dangerous as Hell, though.
That said, with enough goodies stockpiled you could, for awhile, make quite a tidy living in that gap between when the factory-made stuff runs out and when you yourself finally run out of (and can no longer find) either consumables (powder, primers, points, occasionally brass) or working tools. Call it about a year in quiet areas, less than three months in violent ones.
Personally though, you’d have a more profitable time long-term by becoming a fletcher and a bow-maker.
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Blow guns are cheap; less than $50 each, or you can make your own out of pvc pipe.
Anyone have the receipe for the right neuro-toxin? OC?
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LOL! I know it’s not meant to be funny, and actually it sounds pretty creative.
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OQ: I found a PVC “blow gun” at a weekend fair for arts & crafts, today. Only 5 American dollars! It shoots “marshmellows”!
I’ll see if I can adapt it to darts. I still need that neuro-toxin …… anyone with neuro-toxcin on hand?
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Botox!
Sounds like a good candidate. Aim for the neck…
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The negrito people of the Philippines taught me how to make a good blow gun and a very effective neuro-toxin. tHEY TRAINED Air Force pilots in jungle survival.
You can buy the blow guns through a novelty dealer in the Philippines.
The poison dart frog is the best source. Found in Haiti and PR.
A common Cotton Mouth snake has the venom that is the fastest acting and most deadly. Can be found in most southern states. Add tanin (boiled bark from poison ivy and pee to the venom and it will stop most humans within an hour. Make a paste from rat poison for bobby traps, etc.
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See, This is where I completely disagree in your concepts.
Now .22LR is not reloadable, thats fine, neither is .17Mach2, or .22WMR AND .17WMR.
So I took the Node of stocking up on 50,000 rounds of wax covered .22LR, thanks to CCI and their stocking methods, and Not using Shit black-powder-spliced rounds, Like REMINGTON and FEDERAL (Dont believe me? Take it apart and look at it yourself, This also goes for 90% of their centerfire ammunition).
You see, two years ago it snowed a fuckload, and I accidently dropped a box of CCI, and some random Federal and Remington .22 into the field where I go.. I finally found them this year.
I wanted to experiment, so I stuck it in my pipe rifle and attempted to discharge them, even though they looked horridly unsafe. The only ones that properly discharged were the wax-covered CCI .22LR rounds. The remington and Federal ones didnt even crackle.
Now as for shotgun shells, I make it a weekly practice to reload all my high brass shells, and even my tin-cased shells (Federal, and Winchester Red Box) with low power priming methods (IMR 700X and any 209 Primer, and you can load it to 8/10′s of the brim, works without a flaw every time with decent power).
The plus is that I can Improvise on shot if I need to, such as slingshot balls, ball bearings, lead ball bearings, Pellet gun ammunition, BB gun (.177 is a decent 3.5 to size 4 on the scale for shot, and much much cheaper, better ballistics), And even Wax and Plastic which is disturbingly lethal.
I have heard people say that .22′s and Birdshot wont do anything to an Animal, or a person.. Thats horse shit. When I am punching through a Steel 1970′s Volkswagon Hippivan at 120ft when using standard CCI Blazer .22LR, I am absolutely and most definately sure it will go into an Individual’s or animals skull at that range.
Keep in mind your ‘Magical’ .223 (5.56x45mm) is roughly the same caliber as the .22LR (5.5mm), just with 1/6 less of the weight and 1/3rd the power/Range.
As for the bird shot, you can easily incapacitate/mortally wounding someone at the 30ft mark with no doubt. at 30ft, the cup casing doesnt spread more than 10 inches through an Non-Choked Mossberg 500 Slug Barrel.
Now onto your theory about steel cases not being reusable.
I am not an individual of sane mind, so I get to educate you on how I complete these tasks without failure of supplies.
On an M43 (7.62x39mm) casing of good quality, you have to inspect it for fracture or split lines, obviously.
You take a 3/16 drill bit after punching the primer out (If you can), and drill the hole out so it is no longer Berden Primed. Now you have to take a 5/16 drill bit to reem out a bit of the Primer slot. Will it compromise the casing? No.
In this method, you just converted a Berden Primed casing into a Boxer Primed Casing.
Now for the Primers, Which you can just use a standard Winchester/Federal small rifle primer and IMR 4094 (Intermediate Powder) with the correct reloading data for a 120-125gr .311 Lead/copper round. Fuck paper patching the powder if you do not need to.. My rule for reloads is a 2 year shelf life. And remember to go 1-2 gr. Less of powder than the Sierra reloading manual says, or else it might be dangerous to operate in a bolt action, or even semi automatic.
Now for making your own powders for the smokeless stuff, I created a mix instead of using Nitro glycerin, you can use Magnesium Sulfate.
So 1 Part Magnesium Sulfate, 1 Part pure sulfer, and 2 parts charcoal works completely fine as a decent replacement home made powder in my 12ga shells when using a regular 209/209A primer
I would never ever try it in a rifle. Shotgun is the safest for this concept.
Now you say to me ‘What happens when I run out of bullets, and reloading supplies?’.
Well that would be hard since I have over 200,000 rounds stocked up for the last 5 years. Cost me a pretty penny, but is completely worth it. And after those are gone, I did invest in a pair of Bows with two dozen arrows, and a Crossbow with a dozen arrows.
Then when all fails, I have my knives and my Warhammer. If I use my Warhammer, It will be something personal.
Would I ever try to reload .22LR or any rimfire cartridge? No, I dont think its worth the time, hence why I stocked up on it prematurely to this coming event so I dont have to worry about it. And to have a safe amount of caches and backups, I do not have to worry about it since I am incredibly conservative with my ammunition. This goes for the large majority of centerfire munitions I have in stock as well.
Sure words are words here, I could be lying to all of you, But really I am not, I dont see a point in lying.
I stock up for a reason, a really really good reason, and its worked quite well for me.
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Odd Questioner,
Sorry to call you out on some things in your otherwise well written information about ammo reloading.
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“Unsealed gunpowders will soak up moisture like crazy…”
Did you mean “unsealed” as in opened and used once? If that is what you meant, then I protest. That would be complete fallacy with no basis in fact.
Nitrocellulose based powders DO NOT soak up moisture *AT* *ALL*. …unless you leave them out in the rain in an open container. Or maybe in an open container (like your powder measure) for 10 years in a damp basement. What does happen is the chemicals in them will, for lack of a better term, evaporate. BUT ONLY IN THE OPEN AIR!!! N based powders are nearly timeless. I have recently been using 30 year old Bullseye (a faster burning pistol powder), 40 year old Unique (a slower burning pistol powder / faster burning rifle powder), a 70 year old IMR4831 equivalent and 70 year old primers. I’ve use them all within the last couple months. Reloading consumables are nearly timeless as long as they are kept at reasonably stable temperatures and in their original containers with the supplied lids closed tightly.
Old style black powder is the same way. I have some that is approximately 60 years old.
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“Brass wears out – no sane person would re-use a brass cartridge more than three time (maybe four for certain calibers), so you’re going to need clean brass.”
This one got a guffaw from me. I have 223 brass that I have reloaded in excess of 20 times. I have 44 mag brass I’ve reloaded in excess of 5 times. You make it sound like its going to blow up if you keep reloading it. But, you have to know how to take care of your brass so that it won’t wear out. With proper care, trimming (it grows when resized) and annealing (it workhardens and you have to soften it back up) brass could last almost indefinately.
Now, if you’re just a shell stuffer and not a technical reloader such as myself and you cram everything back down to factory specs instead of sizing it to fit your gun, yeah, 3 or 4 times and you’re probably done. But, not only does your brass suffer, so does accuracy.
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You meantion about reloading steel. You’re mostly right, however, I do have some Sellier & Bellot from the Chek Republic that is copper plated steel. I’ve successfully reloaded it multiple times (9mm stuff). If its boxer primed there is no reason you can’t reload it. Two things must be considered: crimped in primers and how much you want to wear out your sizing dies. Also, steel casings have much more “spring” to them. You have to resize them much smaller or you’ll find them sticking in the gun when you shoot them. I’ve personally had trouble with this. Don’t use a tight chambered gun with steel casing reloads. Its nothing but trouble.
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This is not the first time I’ve found people spreading myths about the longevity of shooting supplies. I have 40 years of personal experience that shows the complete opposite. I don’t know how you got your information, but, I really hate to see people start out with wrong information.
Also, while you’re correct in saying that supplies are expensive:
Powder: $30 lb (load 1000rnds of 9mm or 250rnds of 44mag or 140rnds of 30-06) …approximately depending on powder and load.
Primers: 4c each
Bullets: Wide variance. I can make them for less than 1c each but you can pay 50c to $2 a each for them.
Loading equipment, though, can easily be had for WAY less money than you can imagine. A full setup with a single stage press could be less than $100, or, you could buy it all new and not be extravagant and spend $400. You should see what I find at yard sales!!!
One thing people don’t realize is that when you’re shooting to actually do something you don’t use much ammo. In other words I don’t suppose I’ve use more than 2000 rounds in my entire life to kill all the deer, quail, squirrels and groundhogs that I have killed. But, my son and I can easily use up 200 rnds in the front yard practicing with 22lr, 9mm or 223
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Much thanks for the additions. The only bits I’m wondering about are these…
I can easily give you the powder one. I was guessing moisture, but volatility of the chemicals themselves is a far better explanation.
As for the brass, understood that careful care will allow a brass rifle round (of certain calibers/shapes) to last well beyond 3-4 times. Question is, how many people are going to have the time, skills, patience, or even tools to make that happen 20x over?
My own (and admittedly amateur) personal best is 7x for a .45 ACP round, which should ostensibly be easier than most to keep well-maintained (after all, no neck to worry about). Anything after that? It might shoot, but you stand a better chance of jamming the weapon before it even gets into the chamber (in spite of being scrupulous about length). The rims eventually get chewed up by the extractor, the brass thins (allowing for greater expansion, making extraction harder), and overall, it becomes harder – especially if you’re putting it in a semi-automatic weapon. Even bolt-action rifles will suffer from some of this over time.
…and we haven’t even touched on what happens when folks start monkeying with how much powder goes into a given round (too much? blows the barrel, or if you’re lucky, wears out both gun and brass prematurely. Too little? You get a bullet stuck in the barrel… even worse).
All said though, you’re right in that real combat (or especially hunting) usually means less rounds fired. OTOH, that usually only holds true for folks who are actually used to shooting under the given condition. Given that most folks aren’t (esp. for combat), I can fairly easily see a whole lot of (wasted) lead flying… any footage of a (real, not Hollywood) shootout between criminal and/or defender is ample evidence of that (even the cops tend to get crazy with the stuff on occasion…)
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You bring up some excellent points.
Lets just put it this way: its probably going to be a much better situation for everyone if only experienced people do the reloading. For someone to buy a press, dies, a couple powders, some primers, a powder measure, and a scales, have someone show them how to use them and then throw them in a box and wait for TEOTWAWKI to come and expect it to be used effectively is probably pretty much a recipe for disaster.
While possibly overstated, your too much powder, gun blows up, too little and bullet sticks in the barrel statement is true. The two less extremes end up with either damaging the gun or damaging the accuracy of the round.
I think we have come to consensus: reloading can be dangerous and may not be for everyone. For those less experienced it also will not be sustainable for very long. Imagine getting into a combat situation with my experimental steel reloads? It certainly wouldn’t instill confidence in anyone were those steel rounds to hit anything buy my blowback operated hi-points. One shot and you’ve got a FTE. You’re toast. But, they were “experimental”. I have a couple boxes to a friend with a Taurus PT111 and he had a devil of a time getting them to eject. Stupid me didn’t think about the “other guns” scenario. Were it a different situation when one sticks in the barrel, one could have a real blowup. …which I’ve seen happen with factory ammo more than reloads. SCARY SITUATIONS! Guns are not toys and they are not for people who “just want to shoot”.
I’ll have to admit, I never considered your amateur combat scenario. I agree with your analysis, however, the situations will hopefully be rare but a high volume of rounds could be expended per incident. Myself, I tend to think of those situations avoided by either longer range precision shooting or simply using my marksman skills to head off the situation as it gets closer in. Simply said, experience saves ammo.
Technically, though, considering brass recycling, you can use it almost indefinitely if you anneal it (heat it up to cherry red then let it cool normally) and trim it as it grows. Using standard handling techniques your 3x or 4x times is about correct. If you resize it down to factory specs and run full pressure loads, etc, 4x is a reasonable expectation. Size it to fit your gun, run 10% down loads and you can easily double that.
My 30-30 squirrel gun load, however, with 2 grains of Bullseye and a .30 cal round ball can probably use the same 20 brass casings forever until the extractor wears the rim off the shell or the primer pockets become too loose to hold the primers. I don’t even have to neck size them. Just decap, reprime, charge and manually push a ball into the neck. Very accurate, very quiet, no resizing. But, those are the kinds of advantages you get when you reload: custom ammo for special purposes.
When I was explaining before about the use of ammo, at the present time a lot of ammo us used just for plinking for muzzle flash. In other words, kind of wasted. Many things in our day to day modern world with our high standard of living is that way. We waste a lot of stuff. Food, gas, ammo, money… just to name a few. However, in a YOYO or TEOTWAWKI world, we’ll use a lot less. I would estimate that “less” would be “90% less”. You won’t go out and bump fire a 20 rnd mag full just to hear it. Those rounds will be precious and you’ll conserve them.
Most people do not understand the practical use of firearms. Too many movies and dimestore novels, I suppose. In a practical world, you don’t use much ammo unless, as you said, you get into a combat situation.
The adaptive ability and increased accuracy brought about by reloading will be a useful skill. In our present day environment, there is not a lot of use for firearms. They are relegated to the “nuts” like us that are willing to use them. But, after TEOTWAWKI, we could see a huge increase in demand for our expertise.
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“I think we have come to consensus: reloading can be dangerous and may not be for everyone”
Agreed, perfectly. I can attest to this on the amateur side of things. It may not even blow up on you, but simply wear out your gun in a hurry. Case in point…
I used to have fun with taking .357 rounds and loading them a bit hot for hunting/protection rounds, back when I lived in Utah (e.g. to dispatch a downed elk, just in case I stumbled across a mountain lion, etc).
Problem is? Those loads, while certified as safe by the manual (forgot which)? It quickly wore out the cylinder pin/axle, causing the revolver to jam. Probably took less than 100 rounds total before the symptoms showed up. Granted it was an inexpensive Dan Wesson Model 10 (changeable barrels, but I used the 6″ one w/ the hot loads for back-country use). OTOH, it proved that 1) I was an idiot, and 2) deviating from factory recommendations can make a gun useless in pretty short order.
Now on the .45 ACP side? I was ultra-careful, and almost religious about loads, cases, etc. Also, those rounds were all for IPSC, so they all used round un-jacketed points (it was all about speed and short range. Your targets were either cardboard, hinged steel plinkers, or occasional plastic.) I only shot factory loads to remain proficient with them, and kept those in my home/personal defense magazines.*
*sort of brings up another point – in Utah at least, an interesting point came up in my CCP class a long time ago: If you use anything other than factory loads in defending one’s person or home, apparently the dead/injured criminal’s attorney could sue on ‘vigilante’ grounds – that you somehow made ‘special’ bullets to inflict extra pain or suffering. Using factory loads pretty much obviated that argument. Now personally, I think that most states don’t allow a criminal to sue for injuries sustained while committing a felony (e.g. B&E, home invasion, etc). OTOH, one can’t be too careful, no?
Overall though, yeah… reloading is something that requires skill, time, patience, and a lot of effort to do it right. I also suspect that post-TEOTWAWKI situations, I know that unless I know and trust the guy’s work personally, I’d only barter for reloads if I had no other choice. Most other folks may not be as picky about it.
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I think reloading is a tad too much. You get yourself progressively 4,000 9mm bullets a good handgun and a good carbine in 9mm for longer range and you’re all set and about $ 4,000 poorer if you want good quality (without investment in training). You keep 2000 to trade and you can still kill 2000 bad guys which should carry you back to civilization and organized SWAT teams to protect you. Good quality ammunition, properly stored will last forever and is easy to store. 9 mm may not be sexy but it’s the cheapest cost/efficiency ratio. $ matter if you want to follow the survival plan exposed in this article; antibiotics, filters, tools, food all this cost a lot of money for a family of 4.
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NetRanger – thanks for your input. Can you contact me. I have some,questions. Call me at 9188599293. Thanks
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Hey all,
First of all, I’m happier than hell to read something related to prepping for a change as opposed to the political cat fight I have been reading for the last couple of months; I recieve great entertainment from the comments I read here! On the reloading note, the theme was trade items. Does one expect to trade away ammo. and recieve back the brass? I think that valid points have been made for and against reloading. My opinion (for what it’s worth) is AGAINST ammo. manufacture in post-shtf. I am a retired Soldier (combat vet) who has been shooting for decades. I DO stockpile expendable goods for personal/family use AND trade. In the last two years my family has moved into a lifestyle leaning towards self- sufficiency, and I’ve got to tell you, there is not enough hours in the day to accomplish all that NEEDS to be done vs. what I would like to do (reloading would give me great personal satisfaction). But ammo. while you can, in grat quantities, store it properly, and you will have one of the top three most important resorces at hand post-collapse.
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Weiner for president!
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excellent advice… personally I choose a crossbow and bear compound bow for long term silent hunting and protection and carry my .45-70 as back up. All sturdy and long lasting repairable and the rifle cartridge is easily reloaded. and my policy in a shtf scenario personally is avoid all conflicts until night time and darkness – evens the odds some and makes for shorter engagements. During daytime I would be holed up safe from sun and poachers in a over watch dugout lp/op on a hilltop near a fresh water source! about 10 miles from the nearest road into the national forest near my place. It’s simply not gonna be safe near the towns in a SHTF scenario period!
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Exactly! A large stockpile is the way to go. If you practice, you use ammo on a routine basis. Ammo if properly stored lasts a very long time. Ammo cans are cheap and ammo is getting more expensive by the year. Even if the SHTF senerio would not happen, you are saving money (fait) buy purchasing large bulk ammo. Besides, I think it is great that they still take the paper (fiat) and give me ammo for it.
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your right Odd Questioner.
Get a Flintlock rifle and a Flintlock smooth bore.
For the short term reloading smokeless cartridges makes some sense but for the long term end of the world as we know it you will need black powder and flintlock firearm.
the chemistry of black powder is simple and can be made by done as a cottage industry. Flintlocks will last 50 to 100 years and can be replaced with minimal metalworking skills compared to what it takes to make a high power weapon that is safe to fire.
Pete
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Great list and I thought of one more thing. What is an alarm system that doesn’t run on electricity and also a very real weapon? A GOOD BIG GUARD DOG! Imho, I think that’s the REAL reason we are seeing bans on Pit bulls and Shepherds and other great intimidating family/guard dogs. Pits and Shep’s especially have been used for centuries and family pets/guard dogs and used by military and the wealthy for centuries, in fact, before this BS gang dog fighting propaganda the Pit Bull Terrier was one of the top family dogs in the US and in the UK the elite called them nanny dogs because nannies brought them with as package deal to protect the children!!! Don’t believe me? Research it for yourself.
So ya, get yourself a good dog. Be good to it and it will do good by you!
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Stockpile dog food? Let the big thing forage for itself? Comments on the logistics of caring for one?
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Give them the heads and guts of all the critters you hunt.
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A great home made dog food is 1/3 meat 1/3 barley or rice 1/3 veggies Green beans carrots peas good choices feed 4 cups a day for 60-75 lb dog.. Barley is easy to grow and keeps well once its dry. They need the carbs just like us and the vegs give the vit needed.
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I have plans for crossbows. These can be made and using replaceable arrows.
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>>>
“I can think of no instance of societal disintegration that did not lead to horrible violence. In places where firearms are outlawed, the carnage is always much worse. Criminals easily get their hands on weapons, while law abiding citizens are left defenseless.”
>>>
—
About four decades ago I was introduced and received training in a particular skill, among many others, that would be of immense value to those who find themselves without firearms for whatever reason. After 40 some years I still practice regularly.
Two additional notes… This skill can also be used for hunting as well as self defense, and can also be applied, believe it or not, using a sharpened folding military trench shovel
.
—
Throwing a Tomahawk/Bowie
A step by step tutorial teaching how to throw an axe in conjunction with a Bowie knife. Also teaches the bare basics of throwing a Bowie type knife.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1BLn735RQM
—
If there is one critical ability involved in becoming adept at this, I would say it is a precise judgement of distance.
—
And after you become proficient…
http://cutlerscove.com/bowies/gerber-utility3.htm
—
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Those Tomahawk missles are kinda hard to throw.
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Not really – you just need a sufficiently large bow.
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Good observations. I’m adding a muzzleloader to my arsenal this month and I hope to add a recurve bow very soon. It worth noting that the more ammo that you do stockpile the more cushion you’ll have to adapt and plan ahead later. Where I live, it’s as much for game as it is for protection. I would love to know a good ammo reloader though.
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Agreed on the cushioning, in a big way.
(Around a decade ago, reloading gear was dirt-cheap once you got a basic set of tools. Thanks to taxes and scarcity, that’s not so much the case anymore).
For long-term, you’re perfectly right. I’d look into getting a couple of good, solid crossbows, and a lot of bolts (and the means to make more), but bows and arrows will never go out of style.
Skills-wise, I actually do pretty good (though I could seriously use more tools). Would love to learn proper blacksmithing, though. That, I figure, will be a big way to become valuable in the long-term. Maybe go all steampunk and learn how to build a steam engine?
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Twenty bucks @ Wal-Mart will get you a 500 round brick of .22 LR’s. I splurge on one every first of the month.
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If you can find it. The WalMarts around here sell out of .22 bricks FAST. For a while they could not keep them in stock….
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every time the news ticks me off I buy another box of ammo. I’m working on my 20 gauge pile for now. hahaha
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I would think that consumable alcohol in any form would be a good bartering item. Also, 190 proof brands could be used to make herbal tinctures for possible trading.
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You can also use it to sterilize pretty much any small object that you’re able to submerge in it.
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alcohol brings up my point, what goes great with home made white lightening,….tobacco!
tobacco seeds are quite small and WTSHTF we will be allowed to smoke again
unlike now, we can buy them everywhere but can’t actually smoke them anywhere
I wonder if we’ll be allowed to smoke in the FEMA camps?
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I’m learning to build masonry heaters this summer. I predict big business for this specialty!
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Is this also called the Russian stove and many other names? The stove / heater that uses very little wood and creates a lot of heat, in which it loses very little heat or none through the chimney.
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Where can you get these Russian stoves? I read about them overseas- you can heat an entire house for a day with a small bundle of wood.
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I recomend a book by ken matesz called masonry heaters….lists mqnufactures in index. Google masonry heaters will bring up the mha . masonry heaters association.
The matesz book is the best ive ever read on the subject.
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I think you pretty much ahve to build them.
the idea is that you have a huge pile of masonry (rock will work too), with a zig-zag flue. You light (and keep) a hot fire going in it for about 8 hours. The heat gets absorbed by the masonry/rock, and radiates it out into the room for something like a day or three afterwards – longer if you keep a slow fire going in it after the initial hot one.
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Well OQ, yes and no. The fire burns hot and fast and is usually gone in 4 hours, and will heat radiantly for 12-24 hours…36 if you have a massive stove…
…on really cold days you may have to do two firings, or one every 12 hours.
You could build one, but naturally there are rules. Matesz book is very specific on the forumulae and standards you need, everything from the properties of different rock, to how to adjust for your altitude. It’s comprehensive.
That said, your best bet is to hire someone, buy a pre-formed, mass produced core and build around it, or even more expensive, buy a ready made heater such as a Tulikivi Soapstone. Their webpage is here:
http://www.tulikivi.fi/
You wont buy one like you are buying a loaf of bread, nor will you slap one together after seeing a photograph of one. Check out the Masonry Heater Association webpage. Great gallery of finished heaters.
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Thanks much for the info… I’m going on old memory here – came out of the ‘Back to Basics’ book from awhile ago.
I assume the hot fire is to keep creosote from building up?
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I am almost done with my rocket stove. When I am done I will take pics and make a video and shoiw you guys…I am liking it so far
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Lets not forget about PROPANE. In many areas this is avalible. I don’t know how long a canister lasts but with proper storage this could get you but fo awhile. Large RV containers are not that much. I have 2 generators but then you have gasoline starage not to mention the noise can be heard for a distance. My brother built a very quite muffler for his generator using a spare harley davidson muffer he had after his recent upgrade.
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check out the rocket stove… Youtube has lots of info. I use one for canning and only use sticks…
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The only power the bankers have is the delusion of the people that counterfeit money is worth something.
stop using the Federal Reserve Notes or Euros or Yen or any other money created from nothing and start bartering with real goods and services.
This is how to end the fed.
Pete
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Hmmmmmm I wonder if ball bouncing, ball kicking, ball hitting or what ever else can be done with balls will still be paying 10 mil a year, smirks
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Well, you could hire hockey and football players as security. :/
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I trust my kids more with a firearm than I would with some greedy football player.
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Probably the best they’ll be able to do is to =play= with their balls.
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Mac,
I say the DOW & Au are going to cross at 6K. That will wake them up.
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At the very least, $12,000!
—
Jim Sinclair – Gold to Exceed $12,500 to Balance US Debt
http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2011/6/7_Jim_Sinclair_-_Gold_to_Exceed_$12,500_to_Balance_US_Debt.html
—
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I’m saying where they are going to cross (meet).
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Max???? Not even mentioned??
Canning…
And for you preppers….Kmart has canning supplies 50% off…I don’t need any since I have acquired 18 dozen jars in the last 9 months, but a few lids to add to my 27 packages would be prudent.
You can never have enough lids.
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I’ll have to check and see if the Kmart here has the same 50% off deal and buy a few more cases if they do. Thanks!
Also I have been buying the hell out of light bulbs!!!
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Second the light bulbs….numerous rubbermaid containers full. No fluorescent bulbs in this house!!
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Yes…103 bulbs here and the CFL are out of my house in yard sale stuff—reports came out about CFL bulbs exploding and several fires due to these bulbs per fire investigator …after I removed them from 16 rooms.
People, you need to research these bulbs’ problems.
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Ive personally witnessed several of the higher watt one catch fire and burn..I only use low watt ones outside on the barnlight poles!
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hey guy you can just re-use the old light bulb no BS – all ya gotta do is replace the filliment.. you can easily make your own 12,000 nulbs from old light bulbs… buy a fish tank pump to suck out the air and your all set… you can run it off of battery solar power.
check out fueless power
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12,000 hr bulbs…
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Thanks for the heads up on the Kmart items. Just what I needed.
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He also forgot to mention salting/curing/drying/smoking meats. Meat won’t last a week unless you preserve it somehow.
Personally, unless you live in, oh, Salt Lake City? You may want to stock up like a madman on salt, or at least know of a good, solid, easily-extracted source of it in your neighborhood. You’ll go through a lot of it.
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Whats the name of that meat….it’s not jerky, I can’t remember, it is something new to me I have never heard of before here recently and it is supposed to last a long time and be really good for you. It is something you do with meat…….errrrr I can’t remember to think of it???
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Maybe your thinking of pemmican. It’s high energy, with some vitamins from fruit, and lasts.
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Aging/Dry-curing it?
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Pemican?
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biltong, fun to say, fun to eat!
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go to your local farm store and buy 100#s of plain salt for 16. store it in a mylar bag inside of a plastic pail, 200 pounds should last anyone a life time plus have a little for trading.
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Yes, that’s it….Pemmican. I don’t know how you make it, but I heard it is real good for you and last a long time
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Keep your metal lids for barter and buy the Tattler reusable lids. The rubber seal can be used up to 10 times it starts to stretch out. They have replacement rubber seals too. I use them and love them. Also if your remove the metal lids careful you can put a thin coat of silicone on it and reuse it. The silcone is a special kind not sure right now. Bing will know.
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Water filtration: A good idea, but why trade the means of production? Provide a service, or sell water.
Scurvy from a lack of fresh fruit and vegetables? OTE, how do the Inuit survive in your neck of the woods without FF&V?
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They eat the guts witch contain the vitamins the they need.
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Fresh game and eating all of the animal, that’s how they did it and how I would prefer not to do it. You can not avoid scurvey if you don’t have supplements or fresh foods. For the short term I stock supplements and itmes such as Tang which is very high in vitamin C.
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I have to clarify. “Fresh” doesn’t mean it can’t be dried. You can preserve foods and use them, this of course depends on what you grow or what is available. Rose hips I know have saved individuals from scurvey. In the winter they are often visible and retain some vitamin C. I know in a Post SHTF scenario I want to be at my best.
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We drink it when we can get it!
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Hi, country girl…also the Tang is advised to remove the bad taste from pool shock (or other)filtered water…any koolaid, crystal light, instant tea, etc.
I have lots in my storage.. Hope this helps…with Tang, you disguise the bad tasting water and get V-C!!
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Vitamin C pills are cheap as hell also, and each one usually contains something like 10x the necessary daily intake. You could easily buy a ton of the stuff, grind it all into powder, then eat like a 1/4tsp of it a day mixed with water.
~~
There are also certain varieties of lime trees that grow pretty well outside of tropical climates, even as far north as my neck of the woods here in Oregon: http://www.fourwindsgrowers.com/about-us/customer-testimonials.html#portland
A couple of dwarf lime trees would satisfy your Vitamin C needs for quite a long time if you take care of them. Just make sure you get a variety that tolerates your region and climate.
(Neat historical trivia: The reason that British folk, esp. sailors, were often referred to as “Limeys” by the early US Navy? It came from the Royal Navy’s habit of using limes to successfully fend off scurvy on long journeys).
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Why grind it, why not just take the pill??
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I was thinking storage volume. You can get more into a 5-gallon bucket when powdered than you could by dumping pills into one.
Also, the pills are (each) often more than you actually need each day, and busting up a pill each day to take just what you need (to let the supply stretch out) sounds like a bit much to bother with during SHTF.
OTOH, powdering may accelerate decay as well, so sealing it with an oxygen absorber or three would be a *very* good idea.
Dunno – it’s a very good question either way.
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Cabbage is also high in Vitamin C and if you make kraut you get probiotics which support the immune system as well.
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Vitamin C pills are easy to store, small, stable, and effective. Also canned pickles, pineapple, etc.
Regarding water, Forest Lumber Company in Sooke, BC makes a variety of cedar barrel cisterns for collecting rain water, spring water, etc. Combine that with hydro rams and gravity for pressure, and reverse osmosis for purification, and you’ve got mo bettah watah.
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re: scurvy make pine needle tea. That is what nativ americans drank it is rich in vitamin c
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Another fine write up by my good friend Brandon Smith.
You saw the URL: http://www.alt-market.com
Come on over and join the party.
For more information on reloading, ammo longevity and general firearms information, contact me personally at ntrngr (at) gmail.com
-NR
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I am there have been for months….but cant find any other Michiganders, so I don’t go there much
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Fellow Michigander here – living in southwest area. In my circles I’m also aware of few people networking on this rather vital concept.
Great article, and one that I plan to re-read from time to time as I ponder my own situation.
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Cool! Worth looking into.
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I second the vote on muzzule loaders and recurve bows, recurves have less mechanical parts and I foresee lasting longer then compounds or crossbows.
Also trapping as a food and fur barter, or making snares as a barter item.
Fishing gear, net making/mending, fly or lure making, etc.
I’ll also add a vote to distilling spirits or alcohol of any sort. It’s sort of a form to preserve food and will be in demand the second that basic needs are met.
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Countrygirl: I’ll bet you have a still hidden in the hollow, right now! How much for a pint of “White Lighting” ?
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She’s shining us on! A 110/12 volt egg incubator with a covey of quail/red rock chickens. Cast Iron grain grinder with “v” belt fly wheel and storage of wheat/yeast. Water filters, water filters and pressure cooker with condensation cooling Cu coils.
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I’m all for practical approaches. But we live in an advanced world and nation now. We don’t have to go backwards. We need a new vision for America. This isn’t the time to retreat
“WAKE UP PEOPLE!” – JOIN THE REVOLUTION
Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://www.revolution2.osixs.org )
We don’t have to live like this anymore. “Spread the News”
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If any of you care to read a book about the best of the best on being a survival bad ass. Then read (CASTNER’S CUTTHROATS) SAGA OF THE ALASKA SCOUTS by Jim Rearden.
http://www.amazon.com/Castners-Cutthroats-Saga-Alaska-Scouts/dp/093563293X
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PBS had a nice docu
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Sorry typing on a Nook and made a mistake. I wanted to say PBS had a nice documentary on this.
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Scott: read the book cause the PBS doc ain’t squat compared to the book! The Book is 10 fold better
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I remember a story about one of the early artic explorers who either fell ill from scurvy and was cared for by natives. When he ate the same thing the natives ate he got better. But as I remember that included the stomach contents of various game. But as he got better he was turned off by the native food (who wouldn’t be turned off by stomach contents) and got sick again. So the second time he recovered he continued to eat a native diet and avoided scurvy.
If you are lucky enough to live in a more temperate climate then the arctic there are a lot of things you can eat to prevent scurvy. Even pine needles will provide vitamin C. Most edible wild plants are not adequate to provide all the calories, fats and protein we need but they are good sources of many vitamins.
The delima a survivor has without farm raised or store bought food is getting all of their nutritional requirements. Being a hunter gatherer is hard work and requires knowledge and experience. It is a romantic notion to “live off the land” but for most people it will be the last thing they do on this earth.
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GWTW: That’s right! I remember an episode of survival with that British Ranger. He made tea from pine needles. Right now I am surrounded by pine trees.
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Of course, you can always just buy a good supply of multivitamins. They are, in reality, nothing more than food.
And don;t forget the Protein Powder either. It has a two year shelf life (at least), 26 grams of high quality protein per scoop, and is about 15 bucks for 2 lbs at Walcorp.
Those are two things you will not be able to have enough of in a hungry world.
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Agree about liquor–it lasts a really long time, can calm you and your family or be used for barter and medicinal purposes.
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How about ALL forms of camping supplies? Waterproof matches, flints, rope, tarps, hatchet…etc…try sportsmansguide.com Also, I just bought about 100 mini bottles of liquor…all brands and varieties. They still range in cost from about $1-$2 each…good barter and a good drunk time if you want
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Do you think people with raw gold (22 carat=92% pure) would be able to trade it for goods or do you think they would have to find an exchanger. I can buy it by the kilogram at a good discount.
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RGM: Dissolve the gold into mercury and run it through a retort. Gold comes out pure and is easier to measure against standard weights. The mercury is recaptured as the gas condenses.
I got mine.
And I will be providing that service!
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@ zelmer & Odd Questioner -
Check out:
http://www.moonshine-still.com
It has plans & directions to make two different world class moonshine (alcohol) stills. Both are based upon using either a 10 gallon stainless steel milk can or a 15 gallon stainless steel beer keg. I would go ahead and print hard copy and perhaps fabricate the actual still as a prep prior to needing it. If you don’t want to make the still right away; I would still secure the milk can/beer keg and the copper components and the led free solder prior to the SHTF.
The book, The Alaskan Bootleggers Bible by Leon W. Kania, Mountain Publications, 2,000 is available on Amazon. It’s also available as a free PDF file at:
www/ebook3000.com. It has all the other information that you will require to make high quality ‘shine’ that won’t kill you or your customers.
If you’re thinking of buying drinking alcohol to stock as a barter item, I would advise buying only the 750 ml ‘travelers’ from a local warehouse type liquor store. The bottles are made of a super heavy-duty plastic as opposed to glass; you would really have to work at it to break one of these ‘puppies’. You can usually get a ‘deal’ when buying three or more at a time; it doesn’t hurt to ask.
As you can probably tell, this is a subject that I’ve looked into quite extensively. If tobacco didn’t degrade so quickly; I would also be looking into storing it for barter also. You might want to look into storing tobacco seeds. My father-in-law used to grow and cure his own tobacco and roll his own home made cigars. He was so poor that he didn’t have money to buy ‘tailor-made’ cigarettes. not with 14 kids on the farm down there in Colombia.
And please folks; I really don’t need any moral criticism regarding stocking or making drinking alcohol for barter. The answer to this one is very simple. You don’t like it? Then please don’t patronize MadMarkie’s combination bar/grill, whorehouse & convenience store after TSHTF.
Zelmer & Odd Questioner, hope this info helps out.
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No problems “here” Eminem. I have to agree on the PV solar panels. Everybody should have at least a couple of “great panels”, buy American (Solar World). They are the best!
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re. SolarWorld: They make them in the US (their biggest plant is nearby, just outside of the PDX metro area), but their corporate HQ is in Germany: http://www.solarworld.de
That said, everything I’ve seen about them are pretty good: 25-year warranty, 255 Watts off a panel, and overall, pretty nice gear. It’ll cost you a pretty penny, but for a BOL, worth it.
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Hey Madmarkie could you post the link for the free ebook page for The Alaskan Bootleggers Bible I have been searching for it and can not locate it..
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Ah, moonshine. Gotta be damned careful with it though – it’s easy to screw up and make a batch that could harm someone if they drink it. My last actual attempt at it was courtesy of an old ARAMCO recipe we found while we were stationed in Saudi Arabia, during the first Gulf War. No copper or kettle, but clean hydraulic lines and a busted aircraft O2 tank does the job pretty well. You could strip paint with it if you wanted to, and it tasted like fresh lava, but it was safe and we mixed it with pretty much anything.
Tobacco actually grows pretty well here in Oregon (my father-in-law did it for awhile), and the curing process does last awhile, but you’re right – good luck keeping it after a year or so.
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I almost forgot; forget the damn ‘bick’ type lighters! Those things have a nasty tendency to leak out all the gas over a period of time.
You can get a brand new Zippo lighter and a belt holster for it for less than $25.00. Don’t forget the spare flints and wicks. They will light on most any flamable liquid; but be very cautious with anything other than lighter fluid. There are folks out there still using the same Zippo that they carried in Vietnam; 40+ years old and still working. If it doesen’t ….. send it back to the factory and they will fix or replace it for free no matter how old it is. That’s assuming that the factory is still operating after TSHTF.
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This has been going on for as long as I can remember. One of our friends has been storing food since the ’70s. One time his basement flooded, and you can guess what happened to his powdered milk. Have you ever smelled sour milk? I think I’ll wait a bit longer.
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Betty, it is always a good idea to be prepared. You should be able to stay holed up in your house for at least 30 days supply wise.
That’s all being prepped is. too many make more of it. You could use a lot of things, but if you don’t have food and water you need anything else.
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I shudder to think of all the golfclub-swinging preppie-raised chumps in my suburban Houston neighborhood who are going to come-to a day late when this “party” finally kicks-off.
My hunch is that immediately after TSHTF the white-bred, R.I.N.O. soccer-mom, protestant-types will form neighborhood “committees” for the sole purpose of taking supplies from their few-and-far between prepared neighbors like me.
I try to tell the neighbors that I do care about to stock up a little, to consider a less-than-optimal outcome for the economy, to think like another hurrcaine Ike will hit us etc. I forward posts and links, I invite them to Appleseed shoots and to the rifle range… Nobody has ever e-mailed or called me to discuss any of it.
When it all goes down, I’ll be driving these newly-impoverished beggars off my doorstep so my wife and kids can eat.
America has already drank the Kool-aid and now we’re on the second or third cup.
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I’ll have a sign prepared–
~~LAUGHING NOW?? DON’T EVEN BOTHER STOPPING AT THIS DOOR!!~~
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@JJ:
As gratifying as such a sign may be, it would also advertise 24/7 that you have things other people would really need.
Remember – OPSEC. You want to appear to be just as bad-off as your neighbors, so they don’t get any ideas about raiding your pantry, eh?
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THE SURVIVAL WATER BUCKET. A bucket for modern wells.
http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=7906.msg86481#msg86481
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Car and pickup spare parts.
Smugglers to get people safely out of the country.
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You write that gold and silver never lose their value. They do. William Davies, one time editor of Punch, was a German and lived through the collapse at the end of WWII. He has written that when the chips are really down, no one wants gold and silver, the currency becomes whisky and cigarettes.
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I would add hemp and cotton seeds, bleach and hydrogen peroxide as baterable goods. Twine, rope, good scissors, vinegars. Several sets of the “Back to Basics” books plus school books, the classics, all sorts of paperbacks. Weaving, plus looms and spinning wheels. Mud and clay (adobe) brick making, grass roof making. Giving hair cuts. Knife and scissor sharpening. Laundry services. Food preserving. (I heard if you put sliced foods on metal trays in an old car sitting in the sun on a hot day with the windows up, it will dry the foods as well as a dehydrator.)
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Other useful skills:
~ Midwifery
~ Herbalism and natural healing
~ Ability to make basics such as vinegar, soap and yeast
~ The ability to terminate pregnancies
~ The ability to make liquor, wine and mood altering drugs from aquirable ingredients
~ Prostitution
Some of these things are clearly uglier than others but all of them will be in demand. TEOTWAWKI doesn’t mean that everyone is going to be a God-fearing Christian without vices. Those who can accomodate the vices will land on their feet.
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Daisy-
Actually, I’m hoping that with the end of so-called “civil” society, we will see an end to the abortion industry.
If men of the caliber depicted in “Patriots” are those who will remake our country, hopefully they will make the procurement of abortion a capital offense.
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“”make the procurement of abortion a capital offense”"
WTF??
You anti-abortion nuts are crazy.
Cant you see that there are currently many many people who SHOULD have been aborted? I wouldnt mind some of them having an 80th trimester abortion. Part of sociy’s problems right now is the wrong people are having too many kids.
If a human does not want a child, why would you force them to have it. That is lunacy.
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Hypothetically, if a woman needed an abortion performed because the pregnancy was going to kill her, and her partner said something like “No, it’s in God’s hands”, He plain and simple does not love her.
First time I’ve put my foot down about something on this site.
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Here’s the problem with being pro-abortion (and I’ll remove the politics/ethics from it just to prove a point here):
* Facilities to safely do such a thing will be non-existent, so any abortion performed will present a higher risk to the mother than carrying to term would. What few medical supplies and expertise still exists will be concentrated on helping the wounded and the sick, not on elective procedures. In other words, you’re going to have a hard time finding a doctor willing to blow precious medical equipment and consumables on something that, in almost all cases, isn’t killing the patient.
* In a world without 401ks, Social Security, Medicare, or any other form of “retirement” or old-age benefit, children are pretty much going to be your only means of care and feeding when you get too old to do it yourself.
* In reference to the second point, children are going to be pretty much the only additional farming labor that you can fully trust.
* In most TEOTWAWKI situations, I don’t think that population pressures are going to be much of a concern in the long-term, and most folks who think it is will likely be dead themselves.
* recreational sex with random strangers is going to be a whole lot less common in a SHTF condition, which in turn will lead to less ‘unwanted’ pregnancies. You’re going to be way the hell too busy just trying to stay alive, and protecting what you do have.
…long story short, abortion will most likely become a moot point by then, since you simply won’t have as many folks with the time and energy to spare opposing/advocating it. You also won’t have nearly as many instances where a woman would want one, or could even get one if she did.
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John Q: I agree with you in part, some times there is a fine line between morality and necessity. In a (SHIF)world necessity will bypass morality. One only needs to look at history…or any third world or any war-torn country.
“It’s easy to think about morality as long as your still eating three meals a day!”
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I support abortion too… for liberals.
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Wouldn’t that be a beautiful thing…amen!
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I think having access to someone with the ability to terminate pregnancies will keep a lot of women alive, who would not otherwise have been. In post SHTF we need as many women to survive childbirth as we can manage. I’m referring to termination of pregnancies where NOT doing so is going to kill her.
Dead foetuses do not always come out on their own. They need to be removed, and the skills for removing them and hence saving the womans life, are the very same procedures used in terminating pregnancies. Not all midwives know how to do this.
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I am of course referring to dead foetuses that died on their own. An all too common occurrence.
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SSPXER ~ I sincerely hope that you are wrong that the “men” rebuilding our society will decide to poke their noses into a person’s health care and personal decisions. Try being a single woman feed 5 kids without the ability to prevent pregnancies. Try being subject to rape from every other man passing by, thus bringing MORE mouths to feed into the world.
You and your “men of caliber” need to butt out. You talk about being into “less governemnt” but what you actually mean is “more government, as long as they agree with you.”
As respectfully as possible, until you have a uterus, you really have no say in the matter.
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@Daisy:
I think it’ll all be a moot point by then, and honestly?
I hate to say this, but if you’re a single woman post-SHTF or TEOTWAWKI, you’d better concentrate on either sharpening your firearms skills, or in finding a either man or a fellow group of women capable of helping to protect you.
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Hey, if you waqnt to lop off one of your arms, and both of your legs, I will supply you with the chainsaw.
But to pretend that the baby growing inside your womb is YOUR body, and therefore a simple matter of personal healthcare, is a bit difficult to defend.
Single mothers of 5 are unable to prevent pregnancy?? Maybe you really are that stupid, but most people learn by 11-12 yrs old where babies come from, and if you are spreading your legs for a good time whenever occassion permits, you are a victim of your own looseness. Don’t want babies? Don’t spread your legs!
And with regard to rape, perhaps you should kill yourself rather than the baby. After all, you have committed many sins in your life which make you deserving of punishment, whereas your baby is still innocent.
How does adding murder to rape wipe you clean of the dreadful experience? You just ruin yourself further. The ranks of the pro-life movement are filled with women who did what you are suggesting, and are haunted by the fact that they have become murderers; they thought they could wash the rape away, and ruined themselves.
Your opinions have been exploded by too many people to be taken seriously.
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@ John Q:
If you were in Nazi Germany you would be gassing Jews.
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@SSPXER – You sir are a retard. Plain and simple. How many foster kids do you currently have in your home? 200,000 a year leave the system with NO family and most are messed up because of it. Thank you for continuing to contribute to the problem but forcing YOUR world views upon others. At best the issue of abortion should be a state-by-state issue, not Federal.
You make an idiotic assumption that Daisy is “easy” or spreading her legs. It is her body, no matter how much your twisted book says otherwise. If males carried the fetus (an infection the body is constantly trying to kill, according to the entire medical profession btw) abortion would be completely legal. Of course you would argue otherwise but we’re sissies compared to women.
Until it can survive outside the uterus on its own, I say its not a human. Until then, it is the mothers body. Then again I say until you’ve adopted 2 kids from the system you cannot have a vote on the issue, period.
I personally would rather keep my wife and lose a baby who would likely die after birth (in tough times) so we can take a chance at another child. If things get bad I will need my wife to help raise the children and help grow food. I’m happy you’re willing to throw your wife away but not all of us are that heartless.
But you owe Daisy an apology for your complete and total rudeness towards her. Trying to spin it that she is a sinner, you know nothing about her and automatically judged her which is NOT your place, that is Gods and Gods alone. You committed a sin by judging her yourself (I sin all the time, I don’t care, but if you’re as religious as you seem you are just as bad).
I love how you even proved her point, and I quote: “…to pretend that the baby growing inside your womb is YOUR body, …” the first “your” gives her possession. And end of story thank you for helping out. The fetus inside HER womb is under her control and nourishment. She is stealing from her body to sustain it. If she is not consuming enough calories it dies. If she dies, it dies. It is completely and totally dependent upon her. Its like a parasite… Oh wait, it is by definition…
Joys of modern society
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SSPXER: Good to meet a fellow Catholic (and a conservative one at that
)
I’m assuming correctly that your ‘nym refers to St. Paul X?
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Folks,
I just do not understand the anti-aborion thing. Do you really believe (think) people are having sex to make babies, and then they change their minds later?
NO.
I can assure you that most people are having sex for enjoyment, NOT BABIES.
They are having sex becasue sex feels soooooo gooood. People are NOT procreating, they are simple enjoying the physical act, it has NOTHING to do with babies. Babies are a side effect of the fun.
I just dont understand you wanting (demanding) to tell people “NOPE NOPE NOPE, YOU HAD SEX, YOU GOT PREGGERS… NOW BY GOD YOU WILL HAVE THAT BABY, IT IS GODS WAY!!!…… that makes no sense….. they were only enjoying the joy of sex and orgasms.
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“I can assure you that most people are having sex for enjoyment, NOT BABIES.”
In our current state of civilization, sure. It’s easy to chase orgasms when you’re fed 3x a day, have a warm, dry place to sleep, and your basic needs are basically taken care of.
Now let’s look at a post-SHTF or TEOTWAWKI situation… where eating once a day is going to be an iffy proposition for most folks. Where satisfying your own basic needs (and defending the means to do it from others who want it worse than you do) will occupy most of your time.
I really don’t know how else to say it, but if things really do get that bad, any spare time you find yourself with will be busily spent catching up on sleep, or patrolling, or repairing something, or… Getting some nookie will be pretty low on the list of things to do at that point, yanno?
“…they were only enjoying the joy of sex and orgasms.”
Well, that’s nice and all, but I’m not going to completely take the bait. Suffice it to say that once your decisions start affecting (and killing) other human beings, it fails to be a morally supportable choice. The “It’s my body” argument stops cold when you realize that there is another body involved.
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Having sex was the first thing man did when he stepped on this planet and it will probably be the last thing he does on this planet. They dont call prostitution the worlds oldest profession for nothing…. I am betting having a matress back will be a very viable skill in postshtf, there will always be a demand, no matter how tired people are.
Having sex and wanting babies are two seperate things, but unfortunatley, for everyone, moron after idiot after retard are having too many children. Less kids would be better.
I doubt we will stop people from having sex, so what do you propose? Do you really want every moron capable of spreading her legs and/or idiot capable of doing the poking should have a kid? Come on man, that is part of the reason the world is so messed up.
It is wrong to tell people who were just screwing, for fun, to be told they MUST have a child, even if they dont want it. Whne the the wrong people are having kids, we should be delighted if they decide to abort one or 4 of them, or as I said to start with, having some 80 trimester abortions might be ok too.
I could easily post links to 20 examples of candiates for 80th trimnester abortions JUST in today news… but I am sure you can find them and more….
How about this one..
June 9, 2011 11:59 PM
Dozens Brawl Outside Downtown San Jose McDonald’s; 2 Stabbed
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2011/06/09/3-stabbed-in-downtown-san-jose/
or
JUNE 9, 2011, 5:50 P.M. ET.
Chicago Police Brace for ‘Flash Mob’ Attacks
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304778304576375661383528354.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read
or…. etc etc etc
Actually… do those stories point towrds SisHTF…. it is happening…
how about the story out of Kansas City?
Police employee clings to car’s hood as driver flees DUI checkpoint
http://www.kansascity.com/2011/06/11/2942535/police-employee-clinging-to-cars.html#ixzz1Ow7ClbhZ
MAYBE ALL OF THESE PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE BEEN (should be)ABORTED. I bet you support the death penalty, dont you? Why not nip it in the bud? esp if the parents dont wnat the kid, come on man.
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Society of St. Pius X, correct.
See sspx.org
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“”SSPXER says:
June 11, 2011 at 7:06 pm @ John Q:
If you were in Nazi Germany you would be gassing Jews.”"
LOL, no I wouldnt, I am Jewish myself, are you insane?
Nazis? Jews? Germany? wooooosh>>>that was quite a leap, wow.
You overtly ranting religious fanatics are always good for a few laughs. I was merely stating an opinion, but if you wanna get personal, we can do that too.
So funny how you use your catholic church as an excuse to try to dominate people, while ignoring the fact that it is fundamentally a pedophile protection racket, or have you just ignored the overwelming reports of child abuse and rape? Priest cant marry, that is nuts. How is that church still in busines?
State your opinion and dont get personal and things can stay cival.
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@SSPXER:
Gotta call Godwin on that one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
I understand the passion, but please temper it with compassion.
You are however correct on one point brought up earlier. Abortion does do damage to the mother, and little of that is physical. I’ve personally seen and spoken with many women whose lives went south in a hurry post-abortion. I know of very few counseling facilities that can handle such things, but a good one is Rachael’s Vineyard: http://www.rachelsvineyard.org/ They don’t just help Catholic folks out, but any woman who asks. It’s a series of intensive therapy sessions that focus on forgiveness (both by God and of one’s self), renewal of purpose, and healing.
Women who have abortions aren’t going to automatically and irrevocably burn in hell or any such. Give God a little more credit than that, eh?
==
“You overtly ranting religious fanatics are always good for a few laughs.”
…and here we have the other extreme. I especially got a chuckle out of something one shouldn’t: “pedophile protection racket”.
Did you know that the vast majority of child molestations occur at the hands of a parent or relative? You’d be amazed at the number of those which go unpunished. I refuse to excuse any of it, but honestly, the over-publicized clergy acts in question are being dealt with, and anyone who spouts about it is usually spouting in ignorance of fact.
” Priest cant marry, that is nuts. How is that church still in busines? ”
Nearly 2000 years of history shows that it not only does so, but does it well – 1.4 billion people tend to agree. Even if you’re not a member, consider this: It says something about a man who loves God and service of his fellow man enough, that he is willing to deny his own patrimony to do so. Have you yourself ever made a commitment that can equal that? I can tell you right now that I haven’t.
Overall though? An anti-abortion stance does not require baptism into any particular faith. Anyone who looks at the question through a moral compass can see that it is fundamentally wrong. There are instances where it can save long-term health and even the mother’s life, but they are so few? Call it a single drop of water in an ocean of those who justify mere selfish convenience.
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PS: in reference to:
“I bet you support the death penalty, dont you?”
Actually, no. I used to at one time, but then realized that, seriously, it has become more of a political tool than as a means of actual punishment.
It may also become a convenient excuse if/when the powers that be begin sliding further into totalitarianism.
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What a bunch of weirdos on this site. Doomsday ain’t gonna happen. our technology is for to advanced for that to happen.
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INCOMING!!!!!…ZOMBIE ALERT!!!!!!
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Hey, I like weird but not Ken.
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LOL.. then why are you reading things here ??
Thank you for sharing your acute observation.
we all may be a “little bit off” but hey, you will find we are all okay if you take a little time to get to know some people here
In my area of the back woods they call me UCC 1-207
it was a pleasure meeting you Ken or should I call you Troll
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I guess the folks in Japan with all their technology should have stopped the large wave that hit them.
WHEN THE shtf ALL TECH IS OUT THE DOOR.
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Ken: is it? I wouldn’t worry about a thing man. (SHIF)…that’s f%*ken nuts! No need for concern things couldn’t be better. You ever thought about getting into Real Estate? I hear its booming!
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Ah, yes… but you forget: Technology requires infrastructure, to wit:
* I doubt that you can fashion a CPU from twigs and moss (for awhile, I thought Intel was doing just that with their P4 “NetBurst” series chips, but that’s another story).
* Most technology requires electricity nowadays. While doing so is fairly low-tech (or can be), providing consistent and clean voltage, current, and amperage is not.
* All technology requires teamwork nowadays. That computer you’re typing on was built by multiple companies, consisting of geographically widespread teams of individuals – each person incapable of building a whole computer on their own. Lose one part, and the rest won’t work so well, if at all.
Rome thought they were too advanced to fail, and to an extent they were indeed advanced: Concrete, surgical procedures, medicine, engineering, hygiene, and the like. It took over 1,000 years to rediscover concrete after Rome fell, and almost 1100 years to rediscover their recipe for hydraulic (underwater) concrete.
Thing is, it wouldn’t take too many failures to bring down the works. If that happens, the world will be too panicked and busy trying to stay alive to worry so much about technology.
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Midwives will DEFINATELY be in HUGE demand, since the era of the hospital birth will be at an end.
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The corp requires hospital births to keep up with the slaves and their offspring. The last thing it wants is a bunch of kids born free.
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Lots of great ideas and comments…
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Cigs and booze are a relativly easy thing to stockpile. people who have those addictions get frantic quick. I quit both many years ago but i keep a carton of smokes in the freezer Vaccum packed and have about 30 half pints of cheap vodka and wiskey. what i dont use for trade can be used in making herbal tinctures or as disinfectant if need be. they cost 2-3 bucks a bottle.
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One E.M.P. attack and your technology is fried…pun intended!!
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Dunno… I smoke (yeah, I know), but 3 days w/o them, and while the cravings are still around, they do subside to the point where it’s not that big of a deal, if at all.
A couple of months on, and the worst that happens is that you dream about them.
Booze? A smart idea is to start experimenting with making your own. It’s legal in small quantities (as long as you don’t sell any or make more than a couple gallons per year), and the experience will set you up with a skill that will come in *very* handy post-SHTF.
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I got a Sun Oven last month. It really works! All you need is sunshine and you’re good to go. It even works on cloudy days, just takes a bit longer. Hot enough to cook beef stew and biscuits! Got a great deal too at http://www.shelfreliancesanantonio.com/jmp/jmp_sunoven.php
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We here in the back try not to get too wrapped-up in what to do if the juice stops. Root cellar and canning for food preservation (working on a solar dehydrator now), food on the hoof for long term meat/milk production (nubian/boer hybrid goats and several varieties of chickens), woodstove for heat and cooking during cold months, outdoor wood fired oven for cooking (now!), and family and friends to keep the whole mess runnin’. We figured that now was the time to start practicing what we have all talked about for years. Barter is alive and well for our community; whether it be food, labor, skilled labor, loaning eachother tools and time, or just planning for the future. I can tell you all that it pays off to put your money where you mouth is and LEARN the right way to do things before it is necessary to merely “survive” on the stuff you have.
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Great article! Not just a few general sentiments, but a very well considered list that includes many items many people won’t think of. Thanks much to the author.
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my strategy is this; I`m buying mostly guns and ammo…lots of them…IF we get a “collapse” then I`ll be able to barter for other items with no problems. If we DONT get a collapse then my heirs will simply be able sell these items(which have unlimited shelf life)after my funeral! I like the idea of having something EVERYONE will want and that cant “go bad”.
I have a small stash of dehydrated food, a water filter, hand pump, etc, etc…but 80% of my “preps” are guns & ammo
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GREAT IDEAS, BUT U ALL SEEM TO MISS THE PROBLEM. ALIENS HAVE TAKEN OVER CERTAIN TECHNOLOGIES. MOST LIKELY U WILL BE SITTING IN SOME CAVE RIGHT BESIDE THEM UNLESS U FIGURE OUT A PLAN TO COUNTER THEIR TACTICS. U ALL SEEM COMPLETELY CLUELESS ABOUT THIS SERIOUS THREAT TO OUR U.S. CIVILIZATION AND TO THE WORLD AT LARGE.
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I suspect even aliens are vulnerable to .45ACP
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I have used considerable resources and have prepped extensively. My wife thinks I am crazy however I have a 90 acre farm with a cold water spring running all year, a trout stream, 60 acres of maples, oaks, hickory, walnut and poplar. One of the few remaining settlers cabin from the 1850′s, a newer house with wood burning stoves, 8000 watt solar array with large battery backup, Solar powered well that empties into an elevated cistern for water pressure. Hand pump water well next to the house as a backup, 5000 feet of fencing rolls, Barn and grainery and chicken coop, Hand tools, axes, sharpening stones, saws, planes, welder, 18 HP steam engine with watertube boiler with 10000 watt generator. (people that know this roll their eyes.), Wood fired water heater, Several tons of coal, a still, a sorghum crusher and syrup evaporator, 2 years of freeze dryed food for 4. Canning supplies and hundreds of jars with reuseable lids, Solar food dryer, a hand cranked butter churn, cream separator and pasteurizer for milk, open pollinated seeds stored in dry and cool area. Antibiotics, various medicines, multiple boxes of laundry detergent and lifetime supply of soap. Rifles – mostly .308 Shotguns and a few pistols, thousand of rounds of ammo. hand cranked grain mill and electric powered for animal feed grinding, corn sheller, kerosine lamps for backup, scythe and tredle powered thresher. And last but not least a bandsaw mill that I plan to alter to run on ethanol rather than gas.
I am well off and did not cause myself a hardship doing this, however everyone thinks I am crazy, except my elderly dad who lived during the great depression and says this will be much worse. I agree
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When the old timers tell you it will be worse, that’s when it pays to listen.
That sawmill, scythe, and thresher will be worth more than any bars of gold.
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Here’s a nice little 12/15KW 110/240 pto generator that hooks up to the 6.7 Ford super duty. Easy to install. Down load installation video for you DIY’s under products/12-15kw/applications/Click here for info/Ford. 1gal/hr, 1100 rpm, full load. Super Crew only if 4WD. Tucks up between frame on port side of live pto tranny. The 2011 diesel is VERY quiet.
http://realacpower.com/index.html
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Well done, Gasman – you are more than ready. Wish I had neighbors like you.
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Hi Gasman–No do not think you are crazy at all. We have around 50 acres and I am in the early stages of trying to get ready. I have been thinking we should drop a well and I was wondering if you could still get the hand pumps for the well like I remember as a child. Would appreciate learning where you found yours and also info on solar-powered well. Also interested where and how you got the wood-fired water heater. Have a back up solar generator but no panels on house. Have a wood stove insert with blower that came with house but you can’t cook on it. Sounds like you have done a GREAT job! Kudos to you!!
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I have a great idea for a T-shirt…..wonder if you could make much money with something like that?
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BJ: Not unless you can do it all yourself, at home. If a third party professional does it for you, like Cafe Press or Printfection, who do it for various Survival Sites, the real profit is absorbed by the vendor.
The sites don’t make any money but it helps to advertise their website.
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So basically there is no money to make off my T-shirt idea? Unless I can make the shirts and the decal or whatever you call it and then put it on the t-shirt…right?
That sucks….I know my t-shirt would sell big time. It be like in Forest Gump with ‘shit happens’
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BJ: If you have a vendor that can turn your idea into a decal cheaply and in bulk, buy the T shirts in bulk, and iron them on yourself, you maybe able to make a buck or two.
Still have to market them and you could do that on Google with a free blog. Good luck! And good night!
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Don’t you think that long before we’re reduced to living like serfs the military would be directing the bread lines? It seems unlikely there will be a complete breakdown into anarchy. Certainly there is no harm in storing some essentials but living on vegetable gardens and goats may be a dreamy alternative for most people.
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This is all very nice and I intend to be at least partialy prepared with water filters and food stuffs, but short of buying a small farm and preparing for the apocalyse, I think I would prefer to have my passport in order and a foreign bank account. In most of these past situations there was always a safe haven somewhere to escape to, and considering the cost of living here, to live fairly inexpensively, and quite healthy and enjoyably.
Coming from the east coast of the US, Boston area, my first choice would be the Caribean or West Indies, then further into South America, depending on the political climate and hospitality at the time. This sounds a lot more enjoyable than trying to fight it out up here, and I’m really only in this game for the fun. Besides farm land in certain parts of South America is very cheap.
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Ir seems that we have a few people with their head in the sand, poor guys they will come up for air when it’s to late.
Stock up items for barder
Coffee & tea
over the counter medications such as pepto, maylox, bandaids, vaseline, iodine, adhesive tape, eye wash
Birthing kit (first responders)babies have been born without a hospital for centuries but having at least the basics would be nice.
matches, dryer lint, pinecones
foil & plastic bags
just a few thoughts.
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For a small food plot, a Garden Weasel breaks up untilled ground with some muscle power. Easier and with better results than using a shovel, plus it’s compact. At least, it takes up less room than a rototiller. I’ve found them on CL or at garage sales for 5 FRN’s, just to have for barter.
The trick post-SHTF will be bartering safely. How many people try to screw thy neighbor now? Plenty. Yesterday I told a neighbor he had a flat tire. Not a thank-you or a nod. Just awkward silence. What goes through a person’s mind if they are not experiencing the impulse to say “Oh, hey, thanks!” Today I met a fellow who came to buy some goods. No introduction, no move to shake hands, the barest eye contact. I had to introduce myself to find out what he wanted. Scary stuff, and we ain’t to the really nasty part yet.
It will be tough waiting out the first stages of grief, while the unprepared and the clueless find their own Darwinian solution. Then, when some of the smoke clears, and you can size up who has their wits about them, maybe then you can consider trade.
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Something like 70 comments so far and just about all envision a Mad Max scenario
.
What if things just get worse slowly and the Feds become ever more intrusive, heavy handed & making the U.S. a complete 1984 style Police state? But no complete collapse/SHTF.
.
Gasoline rationed or $50 a gallon, but readily available to the Feds and the TSA goons. Drones regularly fly over head spying on you, IP video cameras on every corner, the Internet thoroughly censored and your every click recorded — all this being fed back to the $800 million NSA data center now being built back the back in Virginia/DC area.
.
You are serfs, cattle controlled by the the 1000-10,000 or so ultra wealthy families that control the largest corporations, the FED, The Federal gov.
.
Money becomes completely electronic and the Feds automatically deduct their cut from your paycheck and every purchase. You pay a ‘carbon/global warming’ tax every time you shower & go to the toilet.
That’s the likely future.
Go play your Rambo make believe … the Feds are way ahead of the masses and they’ll herd you like sheep.
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If that’s how it plays out, I wonder how many preppers will meet their end because a Nosy Neighbor turned them in for the reward of extra rations. It’s pretty hard to prep for THAT.
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Let the Father’s Resistance come to life and rise
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Interesting that you choose to tell us we are serf’s, what about yourself, what or who are you ?
quote “”You are serfs, cattle controlled by the the 1000-10,000″”
so where do you think they will Herd us to ??.. where ??
Are you meaning like herd us to exterminations camps ??,
if so, then that means they will herd you as well… Then after that they will herd the shepherds dogs that did the work for them… hmmm
okay, I see, lol.. then they will by like evil greedy TROLL’s griping at each other… arguing words of, that’s mine, no, no, no, that’s mine…. but NO that is mine, mine mine, no that is mine and then slowly kill each other… LOL
in my opinion, that is a fine ending to your entire story or possibility…
if that is how it should start to play out, Then I will say, Spartans, Prepare For GLORY !
UCC 1-207
Have a great evening all !
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Honestly, it doesn’t have to go all Thunderdome to get bad, as you’ve aptly pointed out.
PS: $800 million doesn’t buy much datacenter nowadays. Microsoft and Apple each spend more than that just keeping their own DC’s current and running.
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I think you all will like a couple things I have special knowledge about. Brandon makes a good point about solar power, and a few years ago I developed small scale emergency/backup systems for home/cabin etc. that could be put together for as little as $500 ($1000 works better) using off the shelf components. Check out my site at powerfromsun.com.
Also, I built a strawbale house in Baja, Mexico for under $25,000. You may question my choice of locale but this part of Mexico is drug cartel free and all the locals are dependent on gringo cash and not so inclined to rob them (plus, guns are banned, officially). No freezing problems here, and water is purified/bottled at local reverse osmosis plants and widely available. (Plenty of fresh fish, too!)
See my story at wwwretirement.com (no dot after www).
I also wrote a book on how to live without mortgages BEFORE the housing crash–naturally it was ignored. Some of the ideas are semi-nomadic, but this should appeal to those who are afraid of being sitting ducks. I had a solar-powered camper for many years, as an example. See http://www.amortgagealternative.com.
My main claim to fame was as the founder of the Greener Pastures Institute, and I wrote two books, Moving to Small Town America, and the Eden Seeker’s Guide, that are out of print but I’ll be bringing them back. See old site at mythbreakers.com/gpi.
I am in the process of consolidating these sites under one, thecoolestideas.com, and will have them and others within a month or so. In the meantime check them out individually. I hope to do a blog.
I hope society doesn’t implode but my recent efforts are being expanded presuming there will be a stock market crash, dollar devaluation, some anarchy in urban areas and continued high unemployment for the foreseeable future.
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I wonder how much longer we have before dirty little factions in our govt get the green light?
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the way that obama is using the power of exectuive order it wont be long before we are all hearded up like cattle. the ATF and TSA are already in place next is the state troopers. thats when the SHTF
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one would do well to have about a hundred pounds of salt to use as barter and to cure game that is killed
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Leviticus 26:8
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Gold I believe is seriously over rated. What are you going to trade an ounce for? It’d have to be something really significant and you should have it now. Guess if I lived in a Chicago hi rise gold would be good….use it for guns and ammo.
Solar on every house great idea!
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Jim, I don’t disagree that gold is down the list IF you don’t already have other survival preps, but some of us actually have saved our entire lives and have accumulated some wealth. I don’t think I need 6,000 guns and 197 years worth of food, so for those of us that have accumulated something, GOLD & Silver is the only place to be for “surplus” wealth.
Don’t intend to be offensive, just pointing out that some of us have too much to just invest in guns and ammo.
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For those of us still trapped in the suburb’s Gold and silver make a hell of alot more sense then adding more money into a 401k. Which eventually will be nationalized to back up the failing FRN. Its easily portable wealth maybe it won’t be that useful to buy dinner or a couple of hens. However if during the “emergency” you need to get through a check point to get to your retreat are you going to use 50 pds of wheat as a bribe.
Maybe someone like Gasman in the above comments might spare a place at the table or in his barn for a small family for 10 oz and a doing a share of the work. Lets say theres a slow collapse and the FRN does the weimer thing and the jackboots are going to seize your farm if their taxes aren’t paid and give your land to their cronies some gold to pay them off might save you from having to fight half your states troopers or be forced onto bread lines. Anyone ever fleeing a insane situation has never gone wrong by having a little gold. I’m not saying its the end all be all but its certainly a base I want to have covered.
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Silver if the G/S ratio is above 80 (again). Try buying a PV panel without silver.
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The law abiding citizens in Chicago wish they could own a gun with ammo. Great idea! No solar panel is safe in Chicago.
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So in order to accumulate even the most basic necessities it would take hundreds of dollars. Even though I work, there is simply no money left after paying the monthly bills. I see the writing on the wall of what is going on, but stuck in my apartment with no resources to get out. Guess me and my family are doomed.
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Hey, even an extra can of beans a week adds up eventually. Most people don’t have anything like the stockpiles often described here. Every day of food, box of matches or bottle of water you still have the day before payday, is your stockpile.
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CC buying a few extra canned whatever is how I started out a few years ago look into extreme couponing survivalblog has a few good articles on it. Those buy one get one sales on things like Stew and chili work great when your also picking up a 10 pd or 20 pd long grain rice to cut it with.
Look for partners I have a friend from Jr high who I prep with we buy the same item but if one breaks we can then still have one between us and some spare parts.
Build up your skills for free by watching youtube and reading free books from the library, if yours doesn’t have something see about inter library loans. See if your job has free or assistance on vocational school training, in Russia post collapse welders were kings as everyone needed wood burning stoves.
Money is nice ingenuity and creativity will take you just as far if not farther. Good luck!
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I know the feeling CC
DK: From what I can tell, a regular iron isn’t good to use with decals? Looks like, from what I am seeing, which hasn’t been much, is that you need one of them big fancy, and I am sure very expensive press machines. Googling decal vendors, hasn’t proven to be very fruitful
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BJ, Perhaps check into screen printing. I was a screen printer for quite a while. You can go on line and find good quality equipment very reasonably. Also, there are lots of places that have good instructional classes, some only one day long. With a minimal investment you could be off and running.
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We must have different ideas as to what is affordable or I am mis understanding something you guys are saying?? This equipment is expensive form the little bit of research I did on screen printing.
I did find a site called ink imprints where you design your own t shirts….but I had to go up to 100 t shirts before getting the price down to $12.40 each. One shirt alone was $27.00
The shirt I designed was pretty cool….I’ll give you ahint it has to do with sheep and zombies
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Find a small 2-bit screen printer, a sole proprietorship like my dad’s:
http://prestigeimpressions.biz/
If you’re talking 100 shirts, 12.40 is way too much
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@ BJ -
I don’t think that decals or iron on transfers are involved in most tshirt fabrication. It’s a process called screen process printing. Check out a book on the subject from your local library. You can easily make most of your own equipment right there at home at very little expense.
Good Luck with your new enterprise.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOtL0E52qkI
Not expensive huh?
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BJ: Maybe you could make some “cash” money there in Michigan collecting and cutting firewood this summer, instead.
Check with the Forest Service on cutting fallen trees.
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That’s a good idea and I love to split wood. But I have neither a dry or secure place to store it
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BJ: Do it on a “contract” basis. Find the people that want it and who will pay you to do it for them. They can worry about a secure place to store it (on their property) and a tarp to cover it before it rains.
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A very interesting article and discussion.
Here’s a question that has been on my mind. I noticed that the problem was alluded to in a couple of previous posts but never directly discussed.
Denial.
How many families, couples have been fighting or have even split up because one person sees the writing on the wall, shall we say, and the other says “we are in a recovery, I saw it on the news” ?
I mean I can walk into Bi Mart- see a guy with 20 boxes of ammo, a case of canned food and a couple of tarps in his cart and know he is aware. A quick eye contact and you do not need to speak. He knows. He knows you know. You know he knows and he knows that you know that he knows. Got it?
Anyway, he is probably estranged from his wife and the kids believe mom when she says “dad went batshit nuts because a black man got elected as POTUS.” You, like me, have probably screamed at the friggin idiot box whenever Bill O’Bufoon makes some inane comment that the masses grab onto like a life bouy giving them hope for the future.
So what do you do when TSHTF? Do you walk in with a gun and a hot meal to save them? Do you drive by and flip the old lady off as you throw a half eaten sandwich out the window knowing that it will be her only food for that day?
We know the country is divided. How about the families?
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I’m saved from the batshit crazy label by the fact that I don’t have the money to accumulate anything that would be obviously seen as such. As for family, I don’t say anything. I already know what they’d say when they stopped laughing or recommending their therapist: “Heck, well, I know where I’m going if anything ‘happens’.”
Yeah. My house.
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Suzy Q: The fact that your family knows any therapists was the first signal code. Throw three hail mary’s and call me on quest chat. Lock your door when your family leaves.
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Bumper sticker on a Viking’s car–”It Takes a Pillage”
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Hehe, most of them have never been here. They’re snobs, and have assumed that their crappy little shoebox apartment in the city must be better than anything I would have created in the suburbs (in another state). At least they can’t just pop by…
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Didn’t the Vikings land in Ireland and work their way across the Northern route?
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You’re right POA….I’ve been prepping for about 2 yrs now..came late to the “party” but I guess it’s better late than never, right? Anyway, my husband wasn’t into it at all…and it really caused some problems between us…I felt abandoned, trying to do this all on my own!! Thankfully, in January of this year, he FINALLY woke up! Since then it has been full steam ahead! He is even taking a BOB bag with him when he goes on trips away from home!! YEA!! He DOES get it!
We are a team now….working together to make sure our family will be OK once the SHTF and it has helped make our marriage even stronger…I really feel for those who are preparing and their spouses are not involved…I guess they can take comfort in the fact that one day they WILL get a great big THANK YOU from them…as they’re shoveling food into their mouths, lol!!!
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God I envy those of you who have spouse’s who “get it”. My wife indulges me to a point and thankfully we have the income that in small steps I have accomplished alot since the financial crisis started but its not the same.
Any of you ladies want to pay for all your preps start an intervention service to convince our wives. I’d pay big for that!
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Took me awhile to get the wife on board, but she’s in agreement now. I don’t expound on the what if’s anymore to her as it caused her to get upset. I still go out and buy small food items without her knowledge to add to the pantry. If she see’s them she might ask but usually it’s cool. I just don’t talk about it to her like I use to but continue to do what I think is necessary. She wanted ceiling fans in all the bedrooms, I took care of it. That gave me some leeway to put up the chicken coop that I wanted. I try to keep her happy around the house and that gives me the opportunity to continue prepping.
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My suggestion to your wife and kids is to explain to them that being prepared with food, guns, ammo, and essential supplies is exactly the same as buying insurance for your car or house. You don’t really expect to have a fire in your house, but every year you ante up tons of money to buy insurance. Year after year it’s a waste of money, UNTIL you need it.
You might also research the Bible about it because there’s places in the Bible that talk about storing provisions for a rainy day. If she’s a Christian maybe that would help alleviate her reluctance to support you.
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First off – Bi-Mart! (yeah, I go there too. Nope, that wasn’t me you saw with the tarps/ammo/etc…. I buy my stuff in smaller batches than that
).
My missus is not only okay with my plans and activities (to a point), but she’s already begun suggesting how many chickens she wants at the place, and etc.
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Daisy:
What a disgusting post. You’re advocating being an abortionist is a good survival skill. How horrible
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You’re right; It doesn’t sound like announcing one is an abortionist would lead to much ‘survival’ around someone like you.
However, anyone who cares about the women in their life would want there to be professionals available, in a post-SHTF world, adept at EVERY therapeutic gynaecological and obstetric procedure. The procedures involved in terminating a pregnancy are essential for the removal of stillborn foetuses as well. Do you agree that there should be professionals who are capable of doing that?
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Like I said earlier… unless the mother stands an obvious chance of dying, I doubt that any post-TEOTWAWKI doctor is going to waste resources or time on such a thing.
Also, any doctor with any surgical capacity can remove a stillborn in-utero child. The procedure would be no different than a cesarean section. *shrug*
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No, the procedure is nothing like a caesarean section and is exactly like a late term abortion. It is done with the same drugs used to induce labor, to begin with, but if they are not available (post-shtf) the whole thing is done mechanically, using exactly the same procedure as any other termination of pregnancy.
SOmeone said the ability to terminate pregnancies would be a valuable skill. The response was a resounding NO, there should not be a person with those skills, purely because they do not believe in abortion.
Miscarriage and stillbirth happen with monotonous regularity within any group of women. These skills will keep a good percentage of them alive. (The women, that is.)
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“No, the procedure is nothing like a caesarean section and is exactly like a late term abortion.”
So… why not? You open up the uterus with an incision, extract the dead baby, and done. Much simpler than what’s usually required, and has been rather successfully done for well over 100 years+ now.
Sure, techniques have changed, I can certainly grant that. OTOH, sometimes (and esp. post-SHTF) you just don’t have the fancy equipment to pull it off successfully.
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Read the post, Ken. The whole post. I said “Some of these skills are clearly uglier than others but all will be in demand.”
And most of your posts are rather disgusting as well – I personally find ignorance rather horrible.
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in regards to your “leave it in God’s hands” comment means the man doesn’t love her….WOW!!
My wife loves God more than me…which is the good and right thing and like wise I love God more than her.
She would want it left in God’s hands should she and I be placed in such a horrible spot.
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Sorry, I just went and checked and it seems Suzy made the comment and not you…appologies
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No offense taken, BJ.
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I’m sorry, but I don’t love anything more than I love my family.
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There are going to be a lot of horrible choices. Is it any less murderous to kill a man to take what he has in order to save yourself and your family if that situation develops?
(I realize you might be prepared but it is also possible that a very disciplined team could relieve you of all of your posessions.)
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Depends on a lot of factors.
Personally, I’d want to avoid any sort of fight unless it is to defend self, family, or property.
With the abundance of wild edibles and my own preps, I can think of few (if any) immediate situation that would require me to rob someone else, with no other option. Medicines, perhaps, but it would have to be life-or-death, immediate, and I doubt that I would know for certain that someone else in particular would have what I needed.
You are right in that ugly situations will likely (but not always) arise, and that one should be prepared for them. OTOH, I certainly don’t ever want to be like this guy: http://chadperson.com/recess/2010/03/tigerwalking.html
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I for one contemplate having to shoot in a situation like that but i also realize it might be a person taking my childrens food or even trying to hurt or even kidnap them so we will have to deal with