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    Prepping for the Financially Challenged: Basic Survival Strategies For Apartments and Confined Spaces

    Tom Chatham
    March 27th, 2012
    The American Dream Lost
    Comments (230)
    Read by 2,757 people

    The following article has been generously contributed by Tom Chatham, author of the newly released book The American Dream Lost – Economic Survival Strategy for a New Paradigm.

    Previously we talked about basic critical preps for apartments. Once these basic elements are secured, you will want to expand your supplies to increase your capabilities. Your expanded supplies will be dictated by three things. They will be based on your individual situation, your personal preferences and your financial capability. The potential list of supplies based on these things is infinite so we won’t try to list all of the conventional items but instead let’s look at some unconventional things.

    In the area of sanitation and hygiene it will be important to keep clean. Your cleanliness will be a contributing factor to your overall health. Women have their own special needs so they should plan for this accordingly. Overall you should have a way to shower at least once a week and clean yourself a few times in between. This can be as simple as having a supply of baby wipes and a solar shower to use. With the solar shower just keep in mind that you will need a way to hang it up high that can support 50 or so pounds. One solution to this might be to use a step ladder that supports your shower when you need it and the rest of the time its’ steps can be used to hold small planters such as for sprouts.

    As for sanitation you will need to have a good supply of toilet paper but even so you need to plan on the day when you will run out, then what do you do? The yellow pages may help for a while but even that is a limited resource. You may need to have some type of cloth that you can reuse and a way to clean it so you need to figure that out now. One solution may be to keep a small supply of cloth baby diapers which are made for this similar purpose. If you have the resources to maintain cloth diapers then you should be covered.

    I have just one final note on sanitation. Your water supply may be limited so you want to make the most from what you have. After you shower you might want to save this grey water for watering your plants. Cut the top off of a milk jug or large plastic bottle, fill it two thirds with sand and punch a few small holes in the bottom, wrap a tightly woven piece of cloth around the bottom and pour your grey water through it catching this filtered water in a container. This should remove most of the soap scum. It would also help if you were to use organic or bio compatible soap with chemicals that your plants can use.

    On the subject of water, you will be dependent on whatever local sources you have over the long term. This may be a puddle, pond or river. There are two main problems I see with foraging for water in an emergency situation. Most people will not have the filtering and storage capability that you do and going out in public will advertise this fact. The other thing is, the first problem may lead to you becoming a target of those unprepared and wishing to upgrade their position. Moving around too much in public could be very dangerous.

    Because of these dangers it would be much safer long term to have a rain catchment system. For an apartment this is a tricky problem. If you have a balcony you can set up a tarp and channel the rainwater into containers. If you have access to the roof you can set up the same system. A more advanced system might involve having a rain barrel on the roof with a threaded pvc connector that a garden hose can attach to. This hose can be hung over the side of the building and down to your window. The hose can be run through your window and have a shut off valve on it to aid in filling containers. A nylon collapsible type of hose would be easier to store and handle and most of these components could be secured in your apartment until needed. If your apartment is more than about 200 feet from the roof this system may not work because of the weight of the water in the hose. It could actually drag your barrel off of the roof unless it is well secured. This should give you some ideas to ponder as you plan the system that will work best for you.

    The conventional approach to food is to store canned and dehydrated goods but this could run out at some point. One way to insure sustained access to food is to grow some of your own. This is difficult in the confined space of an apartment but is possible. If you have a balcony you will have room for more planters but almost all apartments have at least one large window that you can use. You need to grow the most food in the least amount of space so certain plants with a high yield will become obvious. Things such as tomatoes, cucumbers, squash and peppers that can be grown vertically work well and have a small footprint. Other plants such as carrots, beets, turnips, radishes and lettuce are compact and can be grown in small containers and provide a good yield.

    Here is something that most people don’t consider. With a potato tower you can produce up to 100 lbs of potatoes in a container with a footprint of 4 square feet. The plans for this can be found on the net so I won’t go into a lot of details on it. Most people plant a summer garden but don’t think about a winter garden. You may grow some plants in your apartment during the winter but will they live if you have no heat? Things like cabbage, turnips, brussel sprouts, spinach and collards can survive a lot of cold weather and even if you have no heat these things will live and provide you with fresh produce throughout the winter. Two potato towers and a few planters can provide you with a great deal of life sustaining food. In the winter your potato towers can be laid on their side and used as planters for large things like cabbage and collards providing you a good dual use for them.

    Here is another plan for providing food throughout the year. If you are allowed to keep pets such as birds then why not keep chickens. You can keep four Rhode Island Red pullets in a cage and be provided with about 2 dozen eggs every week. They will need at least 4 square feet per bird or more if possible. A multilevel cage would work well. For 4 birds you would need 4 bags of lay ration and 1 bag of cracked corn. This 250 lbs of feed would keep your birds fed for about a year. For about $65 worth of feed you would get about 100 dozen eggs, not a bad deal. The egg shells can be fed back to the chickens for extra calcium and any trimmings from your garden would make them very happy birds. The only other thing you would need to stock is a bag of granite grit to feed them to help with digestion. Another good thing to keep in mind is that chicken manure is some of the best fertilizer you can get. Chickens are also very cold hardy as long as you keep them out of the wind so a cold apartment would not bother them.

    You could almost survive with nothing more than two potato towers and four chickens. This would provide you with three eggs and over half a pound of potatoes a day. While not ideal it would go a long way towards prevention of starvation and desperation. One last word on apartments, other than security issues regarding two legged critters, the main threats you face are destruction of the building and fire, which may be one and the same. If an earthquake or similar destructive force takes down the building there is not much you can do except make your peace with God and try to get out. With a fire you may have enough time to gather your critical supplies and evacuate. You need to plan on a hasty evacuation and have a list of must take supplies. These will allow you to set up another home and continue caring for yourself. In this instance one special item you might need is a respirator or protective mask to filter out the smoke so that you can make it to the lower levels and escape. This is a very real threat in the city during a grid down situation because water and firefighters may not be available to assist you.

    Planning for long term self sufficiency in an area that is not designed for it can be daunting but it can be done if you take the time to think everything through carefully while you have the time. The greatest asset you have is your mind so fill it with all that you can to make the best use of available resources. In the next article we’ll look at single family homes and some things that are unique to that situation.

    Tom Chatham is the author of the newly released book The American Dream Lost – Economic Survival Strategy for a New Paradigm.

    Also by Tom Chatham:
    Prepping for the Financially Challenged: A One Month Survival Plan For Under $300

    Please Spread The Word And Share This Post
        name:     email:        details

    Author: Tom Chatham
    Views: Read by 2,757 people
    Date: March 27th, 2012
    Website: https://www.createspace.com/3782697

    Copyright Information: This content has been contributed to SHTFplan by a third-party or has been republished with permission from the author. Please contact the author directly for republishing information.

     

    230 Comments...

    Vote: Click here to vote for SHTF Plan as a Top Prepper Web Site
    1. ginger says:

      Is showering in a swimming pool ok? Mine isn’t heated so it would only work in the summer time.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3

      • durango kidd says:

        Ginger: That would be a waste of water in a crisis. Use the water in your pool for a sponge bath.

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      • DaveyBoy says:

        You brought up a good point about bathing in the swimming pool water, and that is, hygiene.

        This author is absolutely wrong about one thing: “One last word on apartments, other than security issues regarding two legged critters, the main threats you face are destruction of the building and fire, which may be one and the same.”

        NOT! The number one thing that is going to kill people is a lack of hygiene, especially if you live in an apartment (expect this huge dieoff 4-12 weeks after whatever starts, people WILL find ways to get water, but they WON’T just up and be hygenic). The average person has no idea how to keep clean, even if they had a wash basin to use. People are so used to having everything sterilized for them, they will die quickly. Country folk will probably be fine, but how long before all of the trash from your few hundred neighbors piles up so high and is so infested with insects, rodents (and the diseases they bring), that it becomes a biohazard. I daresay less than a month, and that’s probably a generous timeline.

        What will they do with their excrement once the toilets stop flushing? If you dig an outhouse, be aware, that it may have to service several hundred people (at first), and be used non stop. What of the menstrual cycles, and blood contaminants? Sure, you could (and probably SHOULD) burn most things, but will your neighbors do that, or just chuck their refuse out of the window. When they do decide to burn, will they burn down your apartment, on accident?

        Also, I have a small flock (a lot more than 4) of Rhode Island reds. Feed depends on bird size, and weather, and egg production. I can absolutely, 100% guarantee that 250 lbs of feed to four adult, laying birds in a cage will NOT give you egg production anywhere near what this man is talking about. Nor will you get 100 dozen eggs from them without artificial lighting (they lay infrequently with less than 14 hours of daylight). A 50lb bag of feed will last for about 6 weeks (for 4 chickens) if the weather is warm, and cozy, and the birds are small (probably not laying yet). If it’s cold, the 50 lbs. tend to only last 3-4 weeks (for 4 birds). If they are outside, they can forage, and require less feed. But don’t be fooled by this make believe nonsense about keeping them in a cage in your house. Not only is that too, a biohazard (birds and reptiles naturally carry salmonella, and I assure you chickens have no problem flapping, and spreading their feces EVERYWHERE), but the smell would likely drive you from your own home.

        I hate to be critical, but people need to be realistic. I am all for having animals, gardening, etc. but you need to plan in a realistic way. I began prepping, years ago, in an apartment. You’re not going to be able to garden indoors (in winter, there’s neither enough light, warmth, nor UV radiation) from the sun to have fruiting crops (unless you live in the far south). Nor are you going to keep chickens in that apartment. Save yourself the headache (and likely death), and go buy a can of dehydrated eggs. They’re not very expensive. I just went and looked at a #10 can. It cost about $12 (on sale, maybe $15-$20), and makes the equivalent to 56 eggs. That’s nearly 5 dozen eggs, and it does cost about $0.20 per egg. I can tell you, that it’s probably a better deal than raising your own. Again, pasturing chickens is a lot cheaper in feed than one in a cage. But your birds will go months without laying any (at first), then lay for a period (other than molting times, etc.) and decrease in winter. They’ll probably get sick in your apartment, and die, but assuming they don’t, you’re probably still going to be ahead by buying the eggs now. You also won’t have to spend several hours a day cleaning and watering them (and have to pay for the birds and equipment to initially get them), nor will you worry about 4 more mouths to feed. All I’m saying is to take off the rose colored glasses, and be realistic. If you’re in an apartment, GET OUT OF IT. If you can’t, use prepping to keep you fed and reasonably comfortable for a time period that it takes to GET OUT OF THE APARTMENT. Please don’t waste your resources trying to turn an apartment into a homestead. Land only has so much carrying capacity, and it’s no where near what’s necessary to maintain families on an apartment parcel. Take care, and God Bless.

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        • Ohcumgache says:

          DaveBoy,

          Your post is informative and realistic, I hope people take seriously, your wise advice.

          Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future. – Lumbee

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        • Arkaden says:

          Best. Comment. Ever.

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        • Joe says:

          Daveyboy
          Good post.
          But I dont have any trouble growing Potatoes,Tomatoes,Beets, Lettuce, onions, garic Tarwi and other vegtables inside during the winter. I also grow citrus and grapes inside. Not a problem. All you need is a sunny window. The place is heated anyways because you live in your house. And I live in Wyoming where it is frozen half the year.

          Rate This Comment: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

        • DomesticTerrorist says:

          Davey, EXCELLENT post.

          I agree on the dieoff. Much of it may be killoff. People are going to go NUTZ. Their world will have ended and they’ll just go right off their rockers, the vast majority of them. People will keep shitting in their non-operational toilets, even when there’s a pile of shit half-covering the toilet they’ll literally take a chair or ladder and put it on top and keep shitting there because that’s all they know. This is a known behavior. People will act similarly in other areas.

          Obviously the sensible thing is to GTFO but the whole population of the cites can’t move out to the country. First, we can’t support them all, secondly, we’ll pick ‘em off like prairie dogs.

          There’s no real answer to this problem.

          Rate This Comment: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

        • Mama Bear says:

          Okay…chickens aside (great post, Davey) someone feel free to explain to me how a 2 x 2 foot potato tower can produce 100 lbs of potatoes. In an apartment. In a SHTF situation, where presumably the lights, heat, and water will be out.

          Even under ideal conditions, 2×2 will only accomodate, say, 6 seed potatoes…let’s call it half a pound. So, isn’t 100 lbs a 200:1 yield? Even the potato freaks at seedsavers, growing on fertile loam that has been lovingly built up over decades, consider 10:1 to be an outstanding yield.

          Plus, this alleged apartment dweller is supposed to store all the bags of dirt, fertilizer, compost, etc. exactly where? Even if he uses assorted cutlery instead of gardening implements.

          I call BS. It’s unpossible. Anyone who tries this is going to have to wait months and they will get 10 lbs, if they get anything.

          Any apartment dwellers who have pulled this off, please share more of your technique.

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          • DaveyBoy says:

            I agree with everything you’ve said. I would add that you can’t live off a small garden without grains and starches of some kinds, anyway. Vegetables are great for you, but have very limited calories. Less than 50 calories per cup (that’s true of most vegetables, fruit, higher in sugar, IIRC is less than 100 Calories per cup, close to 70 calories per cup for most). Spinach is 7 calories per cup, Tomatoes about 40 calories per cup. Lets say you need 2300 calories. That’s approximately 46 cups of chopped vegetables. Not only would you be really, really *ahem* “regular,” but I challenge any gardener to passively garden 2.5-3 gallons worth of produce each day, everyday from their window. By the way, a large potato, at 12 oz (3/4 lb.), only has 278 calories. So you’d need about 9 potatoes a day, @ 3/4 lb potatoes (or about 7 lbs of potatoes) per person, per day. Potato flakes are much more nutrient dense, because they don’t have all the water content. (Dried starches, as I mentioned are about 1500 calories per lb, fresh produce is nothing close to that.)

            I’m not saying to apartment dwellers to “give up and die.” But let’s think about this another way. If you have $100 dollars to spend lets consider these options: Would you rather A) Buy/build potting containers, buy potting soil, get seed stock, and set up a system in your house that *MAY* produce in a season, enough food for you to live for 30 days (with 3 potato towers @ $33 dollars a piece, and yielding a bumper crop of nearly 100 lbs per tower) that will require lots of water, and attention to soil diseases, fertilizing, etc. etc. or B) Buy say 250 lbs. of Rice and beans or flour (Sam’s has 50lb bags of rice for $20, not sure of beans and flour), enough food for you for at least 6 months, and requires no building, no watering, and no maintenance, and would take up about the space of one potato tower? The choice really is up to you, but I just want you to be able to compare the two objectively. If you must shelter in, in an apartment, please at least consider storing food you know you can eat, and not creating a liability of a large investment to attempt to grow the impossible.

            Consider: The carrying capacity (which is the amount of life that a certain amount of land can produce) of human beings on one acre of farm land (with great crop management, irrigation, and good growth conditions, and most importantly, growing the most nutrient dense foods) is about one acre for 10-15 people per year. Now, an acre has 43560 square feet. Let’s divide that by the most people it COULD hold with the BEST conditions, (15 people). That means it takes 2904 square feet for a whole year of growing food, to support ONE person. IN THE BEST CONDITIONS! If you’re living in a 3000 square foot greenhouse, in a temperate climate, with a topsoil floor, I guess you’re set. But if not, please, buy a bag of rice, a bag of beans, and call up a friend who has some land, even if it’s half an acre.

            Here’s a link to Nutritiondata.com to see how many calories are in virtually any food, if anyone wants to see for themselves:
            http://nutritiondata.self.com/

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    2. Beholdenages says:

      Yea! I’m first! Just joking. Intersting article, even though I live in the country. Especially the idea of potato towers. Gotta check it out.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3

      • JRS says:

        You can also make a potato tower out of old tires. Start with yourseed potatoes in the first one. When the plants get about 6 inches tall, add another tire and fill with good soil mix.Keep going as high as you want.

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        • KY Mom says:

          JRS,

          I had never heard of ‘potato towers’ before. Do you have any more information on them?

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        • ferndale says:

          tires leach zinc, carcinogens, and other chemicals into the soil. i wouldn’t eat tires, therefore i don’t grow my food in them.

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        • jen10 says:

          A plastic black garbage can works well also. Just drill some drainage holes in the bottom and a few aound the bottom 3 inches. As the taterplant leaves emerge bury them in soil mix up to the top leaves same as the tower. Extra Bonus: Those dam chickens of mine
          don’t jump in the can and eat the leaves. ( thry do not like don’t garbage cans apparantly.)

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          • Able Sable says:

            Agree. Garbage cans are much better than tires. Point to note when you harvest your potatoes:
            Don’t clean the dirt off or wash them until you’re ready to eat them. Dirt covered potatoes are ‘preserving’ themselves. And keep them in a dark, cool cupboard. They’ll last longer.
            Just think, the lovely clean, washed potatoes you buy from a store don’t last very long before they start going moldy. That’s why stores sell you clean sparking potatoes ….. Because they know they won’t last long once you’ve got them home.

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          • Davey says:

            Your chickens probably don’t jump in to eat the potato leaves because they’re poisonous (alkanoids, to be exact). So are tomato plants, and belladonna (they’re all in the nightshade family). Don’t try eating tomato or potato leaves, unless you wanna get sick. Birds are capable of handling a few poisons (like certain berries), but otherwise are extremely susceptible to poison, including lilies. In general a chicken won’t eat things that aren’t good for it, so long as they have what is (good for it). Just a heads up.

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        • joe says:

          I made a solar powered butt wiper and it works great until you have a cloudy day and have to go around with a dirty ass in the rain….

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 14

        • sherry says:

          Wouldn’t the chemicals from the tires get into the potatoes and be horribly BAD for you? Maybe not, but I am curious about that …

          Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    3. eppe says:

      Good ideas….

      Rate This Comment: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

    4. East Coast says:

      This is good, since I’m in an apartment, I always felt limited when prepping because of space and mobility concerns.

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    5. salvadordaly says:

      Don’t store water, but get the ceramic water filters. Saves space and money.

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    6. Anonymous says:

      make sure to buy a GUN!

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      • 3 Guns, actually.

        Shotgun – Big bore for short range self defense. In an apartment building, be sure to used #4 shot or smaller. Birdshot is best. Put them down and won’t go through more than one wall. Castle protection.

        Big Bore Pistol – Recommend 9mm or 38 at least. Short range, concealable and portable self defense.

        Hi-Powered Rifle – Preferably 223 or 308 autoloaders. Use as you move around. Longer range, Higher accuracy.

        For an even further improvement, a 22 rifle, preferably a bolt gun. With CBs. Those pigeons and crows that roost across the street might be some added protein. With CBs, you’d be almost undetectable. Also, a 22 rifle with standard speed rounds is a decent stealth sniper rifle. If you learn how to use it, a mil-dot scope and an accurate gun and some practice can have you hitting tennis ball sized targets at 100 yards, easily.

        500 rounds for each gun except 2000 rounds for the 22. 500 CBs, 1000 standard, 500 stingers.

        Acquire now. Practice now. Pray you never need them.

        Certainly not low budget, which is the focus of this article but probably less than you’d expect.

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        • East Coast says:

          I agree with the gun selection, however, I’ve actually heard among preppers that 10,000 rounds per gun is the standard. Yes, it equates to quite a lot of cash, however, I do believe at least 2,000 per weapon is a good starting point. My reasoning for this is two fold: target practice (especially training an individual new to shooting…like a younger sibling) and for bartering. I would imagine that a magazine full of 5.56 rounds would be worth more than a ‘fist full of dollars’ so to speak.

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        • DomesticTerrorist says:

          Tennis ball hell, you should be able to hit Necco wafers at 100 yards. A .22 bolt gun with a decent scope and standard-speed ammo (often called “target”, “subsonic” etc) is very accurate and fun.

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          • Kevin2 says:

            You fire one shot in the city and the cops will confiscate your weapons. After some time of investigation you might get them back. If there are no cops and an absence of law one or two people holed up in an apartment is insufficient to hold off the horde.

            Get Out Of Dodge.

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    7. FROM the NORTH says:

      MAKE sure to buy a gun!

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    8. Sheepdog says:

      Don’t be in an apartment.

      Odd, if you step back from an apartment building, look at it, and pretend it has wheels… It looks much like a semi-truck poultry trailer.

      Don’t be fodder.

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      • DaveyBoy says:

        Exactly right. I mentioned just a few apartment concerns up thread. Get out of the apartment. It’s unsafe in every capacity. If you can’t, make friends with someone who has a home. Be really friendly with them. Then, make sure you have preps. Be willing to hand over knowledge and preps to them, in exchange for letting you stay with them. The further out of town, the better. Have something to offer. Living in an apartment while prepping when the SHTF is like being the least sick in the Tuberculosis Ward. You might make it out, alive, but only by getting out as fast as you can!

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        • Apartments arent necessaely bad. I have some friends who live in a 30 unit apartment building and they have a pretty good self defense and SHTF food plan in place already. They have been walling off the property for the past 2 years, cutting down trees that block sun light to places that they can grow food and preparing in many other ways. I have been giving them rabbits. Each tennant has one or 2 rabbits that they take care of themselves as pets. If SHTF they combine them and let them breed and eat the grass in the back yard. They have 30 rabbits now. 10 male and 20 female. The plan is the keep breeding them all summer and by the end of 4 months thay could have at least 500 rabbits to can and eat.

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          • DaveyBoy says:

            Rabbits are great, I have some myself. They produce the most meat, per pound of food consumed, of any farm animal. It takes about 3 lbs of dry food (hay, pellets, grass, etc.) per pound of rabbit meat harvested (in the meat varieties). Obviously they eat less as babies and more as adults, but the 3lbs is an average, and they take about 8-10 weeks from birth (or 4-6 weeks from weaning) to be fryers, and that’ll be about 2-3 lb. animals. (I’m just letting you know if anyone else is curious). Truly a magnificent breeding/crop animal. You can die from eating rabbit meat alone (it’s too lean by itself), so, be sure to have something fat. to eat with it and some grains and veggies to round it out.

            I’m amazed that your friends are able to pull together now. I hope they are able to do well for themselves, it sounds like they’re taking all the steps they can now to do what they can. Remember that it takes a minimum of 3000 sq feet per year (minimum) of the right growing conditions to feed an adult, so make sure to pass that on so that they expand as much as they can. 30 units is a lot of people. And I wish your friends all the best of luck.

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    9. Idahoen says:

      Look for anything thats hollow and fill it with rice or dried beans. Look at lamps, decorative boxes, under couches, over cabinets… Look for any void that could be filled. It all adds up.

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      • Highspeedloafer says:

        Empty 2 litre bottles are great for seed, rice, beans and pasta storage. You can go online and buy some oxygen absorbers pretty cheap and they will last for a long time.

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      • DaveyBoy says:

        That’s entirely true, but Not even necessary. Consider, that virtually all grains/carbohydrates (flour, potato flakes, oatmeal), are give or take, 1500 Calories/lb (check the label). That means it’ll take about 1.5 lbs of food to feed a person, depending upon activity level. Well, that’s about 500 lbs of food. 500 lbs. of grain is approximately (10)-6 lb. buckets. For a person, for an entire year! That will easily fit into a small (3X3) closet (I know this personally, I kept 18 in mine, in my old apartment). “I don’t have the space” is generally a whopper of a lie for people that simply don’t want to prepare. Lets say you do live in a tiny hovel. Ok. Stack 3 wide, by 3 high, by 1 deep, of the 6 gallon buckets, and you use about 3 square feet of floor space. Or put them in a corner, in an “L” shape, or make it into tiers. Cover it with a blanket, sheet, etc. and make it a display corner. If you made a large “L” and several tiers, you can put pictures or whatever, taking up only 6 square feet of floor space, in a corner, no less. Line them up behind a couch, etc. etc.

        I take it back, maybe it’s not “always” an excuse, maybe people just have no imagination. I blame the public school system…

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    10. Joe says:

      I grow potatoes all year round in either potato towers or old plastic trashcans. The tire method takes up a lot of space but dosent give much yield due to the small space between the tires. Not recommended unless you have plenty of space and nothing else to use.

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    11. Don’t limit yourself to just the pantry for food storage.

      Make the most of hidden storage space in your apartment. You can store a lot of food and water under a queen-sized bed, for example. You can make a coffee table from 2 or 4 equal sized large boxes containing food and a tablecloth. Don’t forget the space under raised pieces of furniture like dressers and nightstands. You can also make towers of canned goods at the back of your closets behind the hanging clothing.

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      • jen10 says:

        If you have the older type boxspring: Flip it, fill it and cover it with a sheet of plywood. Cover the plywood with a dustruffle. Buy risers for your bed ( plastic cones that raise the bed a good four inches for extra space.) You can buy them at Waaly world or B B and B.

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        • the survivor says:

          when people start storing all this food, they better know what beams are holding up their floor, rms with no carring beams will give out if they’re over loaded.

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      • Be informed says:

        @ Daisy. You are so correct about the areas of dead space that people can take advantage of to store supplies in an apartment or a house. One item that is often free are those fruit boxes at the supermarket and they are tough. I have personally packed canned goods into them and they can be stacked vertically and hold up can nicely under the weight for long periods of time. This is also, under certain conditions, safety first of course, a lot of cubic feet of storage in a room, stacking up, up and away in corners to better stablize the vertical piling up.

        You can also store much bottled water in those plastic wrapped cases. In the space that a normal size washing machine and dryer you can stack just 5 high about 200 gallons of drinking water. As long as weight is not an issue on the floor a person in an apartment or house, or even a garage that freezing temperatures are not an issue someone can store a lot of water that can be neatly stacked. People that drink bottled water can rotate this as needed. 70 cases of bottled water would be about 300 gallons. Empty water bottles can be used for all sorts of reasons after a disaster for collecting more water or other items.

        Another idea for water for the home owner or someone that lives in an apartment with a garage is to store some of those large plastic drums and when times look like they are going to fall down rapidly, they could go out and fill these drums with water from a garden hose. As long as someone rotated the water every 6 months or so they could of course leave them full of water. Empty water containers are just easier to handle when times are not falling apart is why I suggested leaving them empty.

        There are many items that can be filled with water during an emergency and everyone would be wise to look around their homes before anything happens to see what they could fill up with water at a moments notice. Someone could for example have those Rubbermaid or other durable trash cans stacked inside of each and then fill them up with water when needed. I saw about 10 of these 25 gallon trash cans stacked inside of each other taking up little space with the lids next to them at a hardware store. Someone could line those up, fill them up with water and have 250 gallons of water with lids to protect them in less than a hour if things look bad. Dump out the water if nothing happens.

        I like the ideas above about catching rainwater. There is one gallon of water for ONLY 231 cubic inches of water. This means that if you put out a plastic tarp on the ground of say 15 by 20 feet, or 180 inches by 240 inches you have 43200 square inches of water space to catch water. As long as the sides are protected from runoff and the water stays on the tarp, with one inch of rainfall you could catch 187 gallons of water. Even a quater inch of rain would yield a little under 47 gallons of fresh water to use. This on just one $5 or $6 plastic tarp and a little bit of grading off so the water flows away from the sides. Much water can be collected using simple materials.

        I also highly recommend people become really good at plant identification in their area. There are much wild food that is quite edible and some of it doesn’t taste too bad either. Many plants to offer healing properties as antibiotics and other remedies from the store will be in extremely short supplies.

        Again Daisy, nice ideas on storage.

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      • kevin says:

        http://www.bedgunsafe.com/ A gun safe that is a bed, pretty neat.

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    12. watchermax says:

      Not to be a downer on the apartment prepper, but if the situation has deteriorated to the point where water is scarce. you are f–ked. staying in city with potentially hundreds of thousands of insane starving people is not a viable option. Top priority; keep situational awareness. when things start to fall, get out of dodge. you have no idea of the depths of ugliness the average human is capable of.

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      • Nehweh Gahnin says:

        And another thing: In 1910, 1,000 babies were dying each week in New York City, where raw sewage ran through the streets and gutters and into water supplies. Although modern filtration can take most of that stuff out, it doesn’t keep your neighbors from getting cholera, typhoid, etc. Heavily urbanized centers will be a death trap.

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        • don't-tread says:

          I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; The only 99.9% pure clean water, has to come from a water distiller. Who can’t come up with $170.00 for a quality counter-top distiller delivered to your door. I’ve heard the rain water discussion before and it doesn’t “hold water”. Yea, it’s better than drinking directly from a river; but, rain water has high levels of nitrogen( especially during a lightning storm and catches other contaminates out of the atmosphere. Why take a chance with the most important thing your body needs? Also, on growing potatoes, try using bushel baskets or crates. (not treated wood)

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        • DomesticTerrorist says:

          Nehwah – The only reason modern cities aren’t death traps now is, heavily processed and monitored water supplies, customs like daily showering, hand sanitizer, dish soap, immunizations (I must have had the MMR shot several times now, had to keep getting it to enroll in college classes) modern laundry facilities, just a huge industry devoted to keeping people and their dishes, clothes, floors, etc clean. Rat poison. Bug spray. Plus, really good medical care, Yes, even if you’re poor you can hit up the ER. A vast industry devoted to enabling people to live as densely as on the Starship Enterprise.

          Now, how do you keep sanitary if you no longer have dish soap? HMMM? How to keep rats under control w/o poison? People are going to have no idea.

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    13. peter parker says:

      http://ferfal.blogspot.com/
      ALCON: Check out Surviving Argentina with ferFAL. In his book he talks about being in his apartment in the city during the economic collapse. A difficult environment at best. Staying invisible is the best strategy for as long as possible. I would prefer to have bugout plans in place. Perhaps even buging out from work.

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    14. Be informed says:

      Ideas like this can help certain people to survive. When individuals like this come up with new perceptives it helps many. It is articles like this in which other preppers are trying to help fellow preppers to survive that I have written the following:

      Helping your fellow prepper-survivalist, why it is so important.

      Each of us that chooses to prepare and make themselves better ready for emergencies that will eventually hit, are still unfortunately a minority. Unlike a generation or two ago, the mass pouplation just does not take be prepared at all seriously. By wise choice your fellow person that prepares and sacrifices much to be ready has a commonality to you. Much like birds of a feather flocking together, preppers and survivalists have the similar belief that they need to prepare for a reason. People that think and feel alike usually have a type of bond, as should be the case with individuals that prep. In a way your fellow prepper-survivalist are your brothers and sisters in a joint cause, to see tomorrow and possibly rebuild like a Phoenix a world that is likely to be in intensely awful shape after a real SHTF episode(s).

      Financial support and sharing of which you have is most of the time reserved only for those that are close and special to you. People, including preppers and survivalists, often forget just how much good they can do with just the knowledge they personally have. Preparation for a TRUE SHTF event is something that few people on this world have actually experienced on the wide scale that it will hit. Most of us need to try to glean ideas from others to help in trying to be as ready as we can. In all likelihood each one of us that preps has an unique notion or approach to survival that can make it easier for all of us and in some cases literally save us.

      Too many people feel that they will be ridiculed and highly criticized for something that many could say to themselves, “now why didn’t I think of that?”. Hidden could remain something revolutionary about survival that would benefit countless people when they use it. Lots of people also see much of what others don’t, and can warn us all of impending doom. Most people do not know for example that it is highly likely that Israel will wait until the skies are the darkest to launch air strikes on Iran. The darkest times are between about 5 days before and 5 days after a new moon. This tiny tidbit of information can help others gets a little more prepared before and during this period of time. Lots of other people have “other” signs to look for a wide variety of disasters that most of us have never thought of, but would like to know to try to get a jump on a possible situation that could develop.

      Someone can explain a thought and or something that works for them in regards to helping others to better plan. An new insight to somewhere preppers could go either to bug out or move to. Maybe some different perspective to stockpiling. How to save money when purchasing supplies and food. How to be more self sufficient for the day when everyone will be forced to. There is so much tremendous amount of information that we ALL need, the more minds working on this and the larger the community think tank is, the better for all of us to learn and then continue learning even more.

      Even those people that have made a life time project of being ready need more information because the old adage of “no man is an island” applies to almost all of us. Very few people can truly call themselves totally void of modern technology and the need for manufactured goods and other infrastructure driven needs. To those that can, they are the truly lucky because they will notice little to nothing new when modern everything is taken away from all of us. Everytime someone learns something new that can be applied to a survival situation they have improved their odds of survival. On the internet there are blogs and discussion groups in which people can offer information to help others, for that we are all lucky. This however could end with all sorts of circumstances, some scenarioes such as martial law that would abruptly end this for most of all of us. Time is always now for new ideas. No one should ever feel that what works for them cannot work for someone else. Taking a little time sharing this info means helping your felllow prepper or survivalist to learn something they might not have known.

      When someone themselves has a survival idea, they should remember how grateful they were to learn something new and share what they know. People that are into prepping and survival truly enjoy to hearing what others have thought up, they have the same interests as you have. Almost all of us are new to understanding true nightmare SHTF survival. So much of what we depend on has been provided for us through the modern world. The proverbial safety net is there for too many. Even for those that do prep, many still only prepare for an interruption in services that are assumed will be restored within a specific time period, IT MAY NEVER BE! The more ideas we all can gather to help us better survive when “crap not only hits the fan, but clogs it up and suffocates it”, the better we are all off. Simply put, your valuable insight and ideas on true emergency survival and preparedness matter a lot, almost every prepper oriented person enjoys hearing them, as it helps us all to more successfully prepare.

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      • Burt the Brit says:

        Several hundred thumbs up…I am much newer to this than most of you and for quite months read but never commentated, always thinking nobody would be interested in a maybe solution from a British woman ….how wrong, people here have pointed out my mistakes, told me I am full of crap….and said you know, that’s a good idea. I hope other newbies read your comment and feel more able to post their views and ideas without waiting as long as I did.

        Take care

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        • manos says:

          Burt,

          Nothing of what you said was crap.

          And in any case, this area here is set in such a way to promote discussion, liberty of ideas and suggestions, and tollerance.

          We are here to help each other, and complete on another.

          God Bless you, and keep you safe.
          For me, you guys are in the front line. you are going to face the beast first, and i salute your strength and courage.

          Manos

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          • Anonymous says:

            Thank you

            How are you and yours Manos? Well I hope. I have to agree, the people on here are better than a home reference library…I have learned so much.

            Love to you and your family

            Take care

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          • manos says:

            Anonumous,

            We’re fine. We try to live in a day-to-day manner, and try to be healthy.
            We know that the boom is coming, and prepare for it.
            I feel sorry for the Greeks who will be caught with their pants down, in a doggy position.
            But hope dies last, as we say here. That’s why it’s not good when your mother-in-law is named Hope :-)

            Be safe

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          • Burt the Brit says:

            Manos, the thank you was me lol…for some reason my name got deleted, oh well the good wishes stayed so all is okay.

            Take care

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          • Justincase says:

            Hello Manos. Keepin ya in my prayers. Hope all is well (well as can be) how are things over there? Not much coverage or news about Greece in Mainstreet media anymore. Odd it is but they are focused on other nonsense. Glas to hear from you as usual, take care and God Bless.

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        • JayJay says:

          Burt–I have never read anything from you that seemed crap to me–I enjoy your perspective abroad and learn from all here; hoping that idea I am intrigued with now will let my brain/memory kick in when needed.(insert smiley face here)
          Thanks for your and many others’ input.
          JayJay..peace.

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        • FDR says:

          One can learn from even bad ideas. I try to avoid the common mistake of thinking “bad ideas come from other people”. I’m sure right now you are picturing somebody you know who has that mentality. I never learned anything by talking.

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          • lonelonmum says:

            I’ve got so much from those “I tried this and here’s where I think I’ve gone wrong” discussions as 9 times out of 10 someone has a way of making it work. Noone is an “expert” at every skill we may need.

            Once shtf hits a siimple mistake may kill, so while we are still free to experiment with different techniques for all aspects of prepping lets make those errors and share them. The knowledge gained may save our lives sometime.

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      • 1984MSGT says:

        Be Informed – I like this post. Experience teaches others, suggestions are always welcomed by those of less experience. Trust and access to information go hand in hand.

        Many will try to remain in place, however, that will only cause you to become a target amongst many targets in one building – therefore making it easier for those who want to rob you. Get out of those buildings A.S.A.P. they are traps.

        Firearms: I just bought a Bersa .380, 15 round magazine for $348.00, ordered two more clips and a holster. Good for a close personal defense weapon – especially when you have 15 rounds in one clip. However, I still prefer my .357 Mag S&W 626-5 and the Springfield 1911 .45cal. Not to mention 12 ga. 18 1/2 7 shot. So prepare not only with food but be prepared to safely keep you family safe as well.

        Read: Exodus 22:2

        “If a thief is caught in the act of breaking into a house and is killed, the one who killed him is not guilty.
        BUT, if it happens in the daylight, it must be presumed to be murder and the man who kills him in guilty.”

        Interesting – considering the night and daytime differences.

        I suppose in the daytime one must attempt to scare them off first.

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        • JRS says:

          wow…things certainly change in translation…I hadn’t heard of this so I got out the King James Bible.Exodus 22:2 is basically the same as your first sentence. However in Exodus 22:3 it goes on to say “If the sun be risen upon him there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.

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    15. SilverFox says:

      If I may add a point to the discussion that is seldom spoken about. Especially for the apartment dweller that may run out of food before someone with land to create more renewable food sources. You can survive a long time without food. It’s not pleasant but you will get use to it. When the SHTF people will go hysterical because they think they are going to starve to death right away. Not true. You will however feel sick from lack of food as your body begins to detoxify itself. If you have never done a cleansing fast you would not know this but actually it is a very good and healthy thing. Clean water is however paramount. This is a must to keep hydrated and flushed. When the SHTF and your food consumption slows or stops you will feel nausea, tired, and cold. You will get headaches have diarrhea and possible vomiting. THIS IS ALL NORMAL. It will last 2 to 3 weeks. Don’t freak out. It’s all part of the cleansing process. You’re not going to die. But do watch out for the ones that suddenly don’t have there cigarettes, alcohol and MEDS. Prepare all you can. We should all have our water filters now, as much food as possible and if you do plan to grow food you should have your open pollinated (non hybrid) seeds now. Keep them in the fridge. Good luck to all.

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    16. VRF says:

      Mark Steyn: Gradual insolvency about to speed up

      Including the unfunded liabilities of Social Security and Medicare, the United States owes 911 percent of gross domestic product, more than even Greece.

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    17. One consideration about having chickens in an apartment will be the necessity to keep them absolutely quiet else someone will come to get them WTSHTF.

      Space being a premium in an apartment, I have to question whether one can keep for chickens plus water and food for a year in less space than 100 dozen powdered eggs.

      He touched on the eventuality of bugging out. If that happens sooner or later I personally would rather take the powered eggs than four chickens and coups and the remaining feed and water.

      It makes me wonder if he is an armchair quarterback playing fantasy football or if he is actually raising chickens inside.

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      • SilverFox says:

        Prepared Pastor. Well said and great point. It would be a total impossibility to bug out with chickens in tow. Or to hide them from another starving human that will literally turn into a wild animal.

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        • Burt the Brit says:

          You cannot buy powdered egg in the Uk…mad isn’t it

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          • Paranoid says:

            You cannot buy powdered eggs in UK? Is there a reason for this? You people need a revolution. Keep the Queen, shoot the rest.

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          • lonelonmum says:

            http://www.myprotein.com/uk/products/whole_egg_powder

            link to uk supplier of powdered egg for you burt.

            Look in Aisian supermarkets for bicarb – chemists now ask for ID cos of the damn junkies here in the UK so for many uses washing soda is cheaper & easier to obtain. For us bicarb powder is a bit of a luxury yet my Gran used it daily here in the UK.

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          • Burr the Brit says:

            Hello Paranoid. You tell me, we can’t buy so many things over here…my first visit to the USA saw me taking pictures in supermarkets of decent sized carton of breakfast cereal that were, and are still the biggest I had ever seen. If I didn’t have the pictures nobody would have believed me lol.

            No decent sizes of anything and our small sizes are much more expensive than your large sizes. No powdered egg or cheese, no canned butted, no raw wheat or grains, no huge food grade buckets, no government advice to hold even three days food or water.

            Obviously many heads are buried in a good amount of sand. Makes me so angry. Costco is our best hope, but even that is so anglicised these things are not available, bulk buy yes, American items…no. They are also brand name only…Heinz, Campbell’s etc so not as cheap as supermarket own, nearly a hundred dollars a year just o get through the door makes it a very expensive option.

            Take care

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      • kimintn says:

        do not keep chickens in the apartment. there is a horrible fungus from chicken droppings that can kill you if you breathe it. they must be kept in a well ventilated area. there are nasty germs out there such as histoplasmosis and blastoplasmosis. if you’re just keeping them for eggs, the powered egg suggestion is wise. $65.00 buys a lot of powered eggs, and less storage space than all that feed. where are you going to put so much feed in a small apartment?

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        • GOP4EVER says:

          You are incorrect. Histoplasmosis is for the most part, asymptomatic. Most cases are identified on chest x-rays taken for other reasons. And, it’s “blastomycosis”, not “blastoplasmosis.” You would be very UNLIKELY to contract blastomycosis under ANY conditions. It is very rare to see someone with blastomycosis, and it lives in the soil and in wood, not preferentially in poultry. Now, if you have AIDS, cancel all the above.Best leaving medical stuff to the medical people, kimintn.

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      • Tom Chatham says:

        Good points pastor, I mentioned it as an option. I personally live in the country right now and keep my flock in the back yard. The advantage of live over powdered is that live can produce for a few years while powdered is a finite resource. After they finish laying they become chicken dinner. If you have to relocate they can also become dinner. As for keeping chickens inside I have a 3′x4′x4′ broiler battery in the garage that I built that can handle 30 chicks and up to 20 broilers at a time so keeping them inside is possible. It all depends on your situation. Personally, I would want to get out of the city the day before everything breaks loose but for those that can’t options are always good.

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        • kimintn says:

          are you living in the garage with your chickens 20 hours a day like an apartment dweller would in SHTF scenario? chickens can be kept inside, but your lungs will be poisoned from the droppings, and that will quickly become systemic. the point is to survive, not poison yourself trying.

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          • kimintn says:

            search “histoplasmosis”. fungus found in bird dropping,to include chicken litter. untreated has mortality rate of >90%. on a lighter note, don’t keep any bats in the house either; it’s also found in guano. Burt, now’s your chance…wanna back me up here?

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          • Burt the Brit says:

            These diseases are lethal…I do not keep chickens, not allowed and little space anyway so I am not aware of the problems they pose…now lung diseases I am aware of. Keeping any type of bird in the house…that’s bird that has been in contact with other birds, is very bad. Think H1N1′ think, psittacosis, and a whole host of other nasties, some mentioned here. In addition I would think, though I cannot be sure, that the feed would encourage rodents, Hantavirus virus and leptospirosis both come with rodents, as do a variety of other diseases that are due to rats and mice being incontinent and contaminating everything they come into contact with.

            Leptospirosis will be an increasing problem as more rodents come into close contact with people, and cats, dogs and other small animals that walk, eat, drink or play where rats and mice pee, can get in and pass it to humans. The urine is safe when dry. With hantavirus the droppings are dangerous when dry.

            Sorry, droning on again, anybody want to know more just say I
            ‘ll shut up now.

            Take care

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      • DaveyBoy says:

        Excellent point, and I wrote about it a few minutes before I got to your post. A #10 can of eggs will produce about 5 dozen eggs (when reconstituted). They cost about $15. So, you could have 100 dozen (dehydrated) eggs for about $300 dollars (you could probably buy in bulk for much cheaper). Chicken eat a lot of food. 1/4lb./day or more in cold weather… Kept in a cage and fed grain, they’ll probably get sick and die, which is why in factories, they must be pumped with antibiotics. I would tell someone to expect to feed 4 laying hens in a cage about $150+ dollars in feed per year (much more in a colder climate), AND don’t expect 100 dozen eggs. Low light=less eggs. Molting=less eggs. Stressed=less eggs. Sickly=less eggs. Cold weather=less eggs. Not in their prime (8-20 months old)=less eggs.

        I love fresh eggs. But I want to make something very clear. It’s virtually impossible to raise game for less than the optimized factories do. Better for you, absolutely. Fun, sure (not in the house). Cost effective (meaning you don’t LOSE a ton of money doing it), maybe. I remember once (years ago), asking an older lady to teach me to can food. She said “Why? It costs twice as much.” I still believe in producing my own food, for a variety of reasons, but the prepper is NOT well served in using a lot of money on just the initial stock, feed, and equipment, for an apartment scenario. (Homesteading is a whole other ballgame). It will not only probably be a waste (again, in the apartment scenario), but you’re unlikely to learn any real skills applicable to actual homesteading. And, where are these chickens going to live in the meantime, before the collapse?

        I believe we’re very soon going to normalize in food cost. I come from farming stock. Without cheap energy, and subsidies, the price of food WILL skyrocket, and it will be very effective to grow your own food (still, not in an apartment). But, I dare say, if you’re preparing for the “collapse of civilization”, you first move should probably be to GET OUT of “civilization”…Just my two cents.

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        • JRS says:

          I wholeheartedly agree on the cost of home growing and canning. 10 years ago it didn’t pay to can your own produce. It was cheaper to buy. Now it is, at least around here, cheaper to can than buy.I just started a flock of Rhode Island Reds. Don’t know if they will save much money,but they can free range. I guess I will find out. I want the experience anyway in case something happens. Great advice again,DaveyBoy.

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          • DaveyBoy says:

            Thanks for the kind words. I love our Reds. They just look and act like what I think a chicken should be, lol. And ours are prolific layers. Remember you can make omelets, quiche, and custards from the eggs if you ever have to use up a lot. Even if you don’t save a lot of money on eggs, they taste great, and you know what’s going into them. I’m looking into getting some Buffs (Orpingtons) this year, and our first ducks are almost ready to get out of their brooder. Reds are extremely cold hardy, and can live in a shelter without having a problem, at least in zone 4. When we first got ours, we were worried by all the advice we got saying how they needed this and that for winter, blah, blah, blah. They don’t need heat in their house (our were fine at -10 and -20, they just ruffled up and huddled), nor do they need a lot of special care. I’m amazed at the heartiness of a chicken! I have a friend who just has his in an unheated dog kennel/house outside, on a small maybe 100 sq ft plot of his backyard.

            Most of the world spends a lot more of their daily earnings on food. Ii I remember correctly (I’m open to a sourced figure if anyone has one) the average person in the world pays about 30% of their daily wages to pay for food. In the U.S. we pay about 5-10% (depending on your eating, area, and how much you make). I don’t want us all to live in third world hovels, but like I mentioned, without cheap energy and subsidies (and even cheap water, for that matter), we’re going to keep facing an increase in food cost as percentage of annual salary. The more that happens, the better it will be to grow (or produce) what you can.

            I encourage those that have extra to share with neighbors, friends, family, etc. It’ll not only build good ties, but we, as a society, must learn how to share. As it is, the government is trying to pillage us to the point of having nothing to share, so as to make us feel isolated, and to suck at the government teat. The less we do that, even at personal sacrifice, the more individual liberty we’ll have.

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        • don't-tread says:

          Raising chickens????? Definitely not for apartment dweller or small lot in neighborhood. We (me and the little hen of the household) have had many discussions; she wants, I want, she likes (loves) animals in general, I like low maintenance, she don’t have a clue how much maintenance for chickens in our neck of the woods, I grew up with grandparents that kept chickens as a mainstay, costs and investment versus output and satisfaction, and facing the bottom line. I love a western omelette,deviled eggs and egg salad. I can whip up an omelette to order that will melt in your mouth. Problem: Chickens need free range during the day and a good roosting house with high roosts and secure, very secure, bottom boards and fence. Dogs,foxes,weasels, and coyotes will tunnel in. Cats,coons, and snakes will climb in. I’ve witnessed chickens and eggs disappear almost overnight. Nothing more heartbreaking than to have your pet hens killed and meat destroyed, or a whole bunch of fresh biddys eaten by a snake or raccoon. Granny would put the old type glass/poreclain door knobs in the nesting boxes to keep young hens from laying eggs in the woods. We have found snakes that swallowed them thinking they were eggs. Dumbass serpents! Now, if you have plenty of fields/pasture/open woodlands, I read about one farmer that built 6′x10′ rolling wire cages that he moved around daily,probably several times during each day depending upon number of chickens per cage, and cut way down on his cost of feed; especially during the warm months. Free range is best but I think you will need to train chickens to come to roost in a secure building just before dark. I am worn out just talking about it. The little hen will have to do a lot of persuading this ole grey rooster before chicks come into my SHTF plan.

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    18. Paranoid says:

      Just a comment; I recently bought a #10 can of powdered eggs at a grocery store, freshness guaranteed for 10 years. Says contains equiv of 71 eggs. cost less and has twice as much weight and servings as the stuff at the Sportsman’s Warehouse. Pays to compare.

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      • Highspeedloafer says:

        Can you please tell us the name of the store?

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        • KY Mom says:

          I haven’t found any grocery stores locally that sell powdered eggs. I ordered some online from Sam’ Club, the brand name is Augason Farms.

          I have heard that out west You can purchase the Augason Farms dehydrated foods in Walmart stores.

          They also sell these products in a Walmart store in Albany, NY.

          Hope this helps.

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      • DaveyBoy says:

        Haha, my #10 cans say only 56 servings/eggs. I bought them a few years ago, though. So now, not only are companies shrinking packages, and raising prices, but they’re also decreasing the size of an egg. LOL, I guess they have been for years, but that’s demonstrably (over 20%) different!

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    19. Burt the Brit says:

      Evening folks

      On sanitation, there are tablets you can get that go into the bottom tank on chemical toilets that biodegrade and neutralise the waste meaning you can use it for flushing your chemical toilet again and again, I am looking for the link and will post it when I find it. For those without chemical toilets, just add the tablets to the waste bucket (with a little water added) and again you can use the water again and again for waste “digestion”. They are available at camping shops.

      I save all decent sized containers, milk, juice, fabric softener etc, add a few drops of bleach or anti bacterial disinfectant, and fill them with water as I empty them. These are ideal for washing down the yard after cleaning up after the pets and when shtf i already have them to hand, saving the water butts for human use (after filtering)I also keep a dozen behind the bath panel for flushing, wiping down the bathroom etc should the water go off.

      Finally, I have a section of pipe, screw end, that fits where the u-bend under the sink normally goes, this is filled with grit and charcoal and finally fine cloth. This screws into place and fits into the top of a water carrier under the sink, filtering water to be reused for watering plants or even removing heavy soiling from floors, clothing etc….far reducing the amount of clean water required for such chores. I know many people do not consider such things to be survival issues, and in the first instance I agree, but in an ongoing situation you either clean up or end up knee deep in muck which is good for neither body or soul.

      Those that know me will remember I have no chimney, no support mechanism and no where to bugout of the city, a few cans of bio-ethanol will provide some heat and the psychological boost of a warm meal or drink…without carbon monoxide issues.

      Finally remember a cheap pop up tent…people in a small space will increase the temperature in that space by a huge amount…a room within a room can be a lifesaver for those without heating the temperature being some 15-20 Celsius higher inside the tent than in the room outside of it. For even more heat throw a light quilt over the top of it…I have tried this, it makes changing clothes and settling kids far more pleasant, and children often feel safer in their “den”.

      Just my thoughts

      Take care

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      • JRS says:

        I think the setup for your sink trap is a great idea.If your city water goes down any water you can reuse will stretch the supply you have saved.

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      • lonelonmum says:

        Thanks for the sanitation info – very helpful!

        Camping and caravan suppliers have the chemi-toilet chemicals.

        Have a tent and a pushbike if in an apartment. If you have to relocate these could save your life. Remember travelling by bike means you can go off road, between/through buildings and avoid main highways/roadblocks etc. Bike travel is also silent. Research your local area for escape routes NOW while there is still time. The fire risk means bugging out is a real possibility at some point. Work out multiple exits from the apartment in case of door to door thug searches etc. Being trapped by a group of gang bangers is NOT a good option.

        A sensible dog is a must for an apartment dweller both for security and for early warning of potential threats (too many mad people around in the form of neighbours). Choose a sensible sized breed such as an english bull terrier or a staff. An apartment is not the place for a cane corso or huge dog. Store sufficient food. Chappie is a good cheap brand recomended by vets for canine health.

        Store sprouting seeds for fresh food in an apartment. Dense nutrient content for very little space. Especially handy for fresh vitamins and minerals in winter. We have lots of seeds and legumes stored specifically for sprouting.

        If you have to have fresh meat – consider guinea pigs.

        Apartment dwellers need to be extra careful of neighbours – too many twitching curtains of individuals who will sell you out for the sake of a tin of beans for their kids, even if most of you are united and working together for security. It only takes one turncoat to destroy a whole group and the close proximity makes these people hard to avoid.

        Cooking smells carry a real risk.

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    20. manos says:

      Living in an apartment has its limitations regarding prepping.
      It’s small, not enough storing space, and with lots of neighboors.
      Many people can watch during your moving of groceries and other purchases.
      everything must be done carefully, and with schedule of your personal area, and the habits of the other residents.
      Try to do everything without raise questions or even concerns. Nowadays walls have ears, eyes, noses, and even butts.

      Take care guys.

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    21. Barn Cat says:

      A real shower isn’t an option for most people because water is limited. You can take a sponge bath and wash your hair with about a quart of water. I plan on having my wife cut my hair off after a collapse.

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    22. wally says:

      even though we know it is going to happen, let us pray that it doesn’t…

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      • eeder says:

        yes wally…thats the only thing we can do… when shtf happens it will be lethal for everybody… it isnt an option. sadly it is a probability though.

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    23. 1984MSGT says:

      When i was a child we had outhouses. One Halloween my older brothers took a men neighbors our house and moved it back behind the hold dug for the waste. It was many years later (more than ten) when our Dad found out. Needless to say he WAS NOT PLEASED. But Dad did say that old man needed someone to put him in his place. . . . I guess my brothers did just that.

      Word of warning if you use an out house always carry a lantern or flashlight on your trips at night.

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    24. preparedfish says:

      I am limited on storage space so I built a 2ft high box-frame for my king size bed. I threw my boxspring away and set my mattress directly on top of it. I built sliding doors that will slide all the way to the left or right. Sanded stained and varnished it, and it looks great.
      It will hold about 30 five gallon buckets or 42sq feet of storage. Its like a room in itself.

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    25. VRF says:

      powdered eggs?
      cool!
      how long can they be stored for?
      I gotta see if my local store has this, Im serious I never knew this existed

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      • Peewee's Mom says:

        @VRF

        My Kroger has the powdered eggs down the baking/flour isle, right next to the powdered milk and Pet milk :)

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      • 1happycountrymom says:

        You can get powdered eggs on Ebay………

        KEEP PREPPIN’

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        • don't-tread says:

          Don’t forget the canned butter. I bought a case a year ago after reading some comments about it staying good for at least five years, maybe longer. A little pricey since it came from New Zealand, but will be well worth it when we make the instant pancakes every other day and spread on the canned preserves from years of stocking up on apples, strawberries, peaches, cherries, and pears. Eatin’ good in the neighborhood.

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          • BlueH2O says:

            I actually have read that the canned butter and cheese and perhaps ghee are shelf stable for up to 25 years. It is just canned fat. There isn’t anything in there to spoil as long as it is unopened.

            These items are used mostly in very hot and humid areas (northern Australian Outback; Saudi), so there may not even be much worry about storage environment.

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          • DaveyBoy says:

            I suggest you buy one can of the stuff and try it. I have eaten the “Red Feather” (The only brand I know of” of “Butter” and “Cheese.” I wouldn’t call them either. The butter didn’t taste like butter, although I’m sure it technically was. Real butter has solids, water, etc. in it. It tastes really good. The ooze from that can tasted to me, like motor oil. The butter was edible, although I didn’t care for it. I could see myself eating it in a bad scenario, but not willingly. The “cheese,” however, was some aberrant abomination. It tasted NOTHING like cheese. It’s easy to make cheese out of powdered nonfat-milk and junket rennet (I have done this, the cheese is ok, but tastes slightly sweet. I like to add salt, and fry it).

            I just couldn’t pass that comment, and not give a fair warning. Try EVERYTHING you buy very much of, because a lot of food (especially “prepper” food) will not old taste bad, but may indeed be unpalatable to you.

            By the way, if anyone is interested, I do have a few suggestions for cheap alternatives to cheese and butter. Crisco sells a butter flavored shortening, in sticks and tubs. It’s not too expensive (maybe $5-6, much less than the canned “butter”), and you can rotate it by making cookies, etc. Also, if it’s the taste you want, you can buy butter flakes (or even powdered butter, but it’s not cheap). Some like oil and butter flakes, will give you an ok experience, from my experience.

            Also, for cheese, you can buy shelf stable nacho cheese (made from real cheddar, and water), in mild heat, or no heat (like cheese whiz, but not with all the stuff that’s in that), at Sam’s Club/Costco. I know at Sam’s a #10 can costs only about $6. Also, you can buy parmasean in a can (shelf stable), that lasts a while (parmasean has to be aged 9 months to even be parmasean!), and you can wax your cheese too. One other thing is that you can buy cans of powdered cheese (think like the packet in a mac and cheese box), for relatively cheap. I think my #10 cans were around $12-15. So between making your own cheese (with nonfat powdered milk), powdered cheese, nacho cheese, and waxing, you can have a pretty broad selection, without paying the HUGE about for a tiny 10 oz. can of that other stuff. And I assure you, it tastes much, much better.

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        • I’ve bought powdered eggs from Thrive (Shelf Reliance), an online store. We tested some on our last camping trip. My 3 men (hubby & 2 sons) agreed, they weren’t as good as fresh, but better than going without.

          My mom bought some from Honey Ville, and I’ve heard Emergency Essentials carries them too.

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          • Momof2greatkids says:

            Walmart also sells powdered eggs and cheese in addition to powdered milk and powdered chocolate milk mix, dehydrated onion and peppers and for those desserts a powdered whip cream. They also have dried strawberries and bananas, favorites of my kids :0) Hope this helps!!!!

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      • Paranoid says:

        As noted above prices vary widely, Rosauers(Spelling?) is a Food store chain in Mt and Id, and Wash. They have sales of large cans a couple of times per year and have a few all the time at good prices.

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    26. michael says:

      Anyone planning on isolating their selves in their home or apartment. Will not have long to live. A house is UN-defend able and an apartment has shared walls. Just because some one comes up with a “Plan” does not mean it is good or will work.

      Even if you have enough people to guard the windows in your house, there are numerous ways of making your house un-inhabitable. Smash the light meter, close off the furnace exhaust, turn off the water, light the house on fire, blow up the propane tank shoot the gas meter. Any of these can be done and you will never know it.

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    27. ScoutMotto says:

      I have a friend living in an apartment. He wants to get some freeze dried food and store it, but his apartment is not good for this. He asked if I can hold it for him in my bsaement, and this is not a problem. His only risk is if something happens to me he won’t be able to access it. My house is paid off so there is no risk of foreclosure over a note.

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      • Louie says:

        prep WITH your freind….. if shtf tell him to come on over!

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        • DaveyBoy says:

          Exactly. I highly suggest doing this. Remember that the Bible says, “Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?…And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”

          Even if not a religious person, there’s practical aspects. He’ll probably help with the food, and not ruffle feathers (he won’t want to be booted out), and there’s going to be a lot of work to be divided. My family is preparing to take people in. We don’t know who, or when, or for how long, but we’ve had a feeling to be ready just in case. I’d much rather bring someone into the proverbial fold, then to say “there’s no room for you in the inn.”

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        • ScoutMotto says:

          This is a good idea. However, I may have to choose between him and family when the shtf. So it sort of remains to be seen how this will play out. I could also be married by then.

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    28. preparedfish says:

      I am limited on storage space so I built a 2ft high box-frame for my king size bed. I threw my boxspring away and set my mattress directly on top of it. I built sliding doors that will slide all the way to the left or right. Sanded stained and varnished it, and it looks great.
      It will hold about 30 five gallon buckets or 42sq feet of storage. Its like a room in itself.

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    29. Southern Trumpet says:

      Apartment living can be good for conditioning one to thinking of new ways to place your stores. I managed to store 100 pounds of grain under a fold-out couch and have a hanging garden on my balconey. I never would have thought of those two ideas in the larger house I was in.

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    30. JustMe says:

      Living in an apt., I have recently been paying more attention to the other area residents.

      In all likelyhood, I will be lucky to get out of this area alive, if TSHTF…

      Not all apts. are good places for agrdens and chickens. Good ideas, though.

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    31. Satori says:

      good ol’ Roscoe Bartlett,Rep. from Maryland has been getting the
      message out for some time now

      “get out of the city”

      http://www.urbandanger.com/

      me and Roscoe’s politics don’t always jibe
      but I have always had a tremendous amount of respect for the guy
      he loves America and his message about peak oil and preparedness
      has ALWAYS been consistent

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    32. Chris says:

      He didn’t mention sprouts. I saw a neat sprouting kit that comes with a tray system and 50 pounds of seeds.
      Works in a small space and can satisfy that need for fresh vegetables.

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      • BlueH2O says:

        You need fresh, clean water to rinse the sprouts 2x/day. They mold easily and can also become a source of salmonella.

        Just be careful and sprout small amounts at a time, letting them only get an inch long, not worrying about greening them up and eating them immediately or within a day or two, if you have refrigeration.

        I have used citric acid in the rinse water and _still_ had mold form and that was even in the winter. It is a good idea to sterilize the sprout jar/tray between crops with boiling water and bleach, if possible.It is not as easy as it looks.

        Actually, that was a good reason for me to experiment with growing greens in pots in the window.

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        • lonelonmum says:

          Do you have milton sterilising tablets/fluid in the states?

          A couple of drops to wash your sprouting tray is all you need once a week. http://www.milton-tm.com/sterilising_fluid.html

          Once a month I fill a basin and sterilise the trays properly with milton. Only takes 15 mins.

          DS loves sprouted veggies in his packed lunch for school. (he’s currently experimenting with a wide range of seeds beyond the usual cheap died pulses so I know what to store long term). We’ve never had any issues with mold, and I’ve been using a coupla drops of milton to clean my wee sprouting trays for about 10 years.

          I got my trays as a gift about 10 years ago (prior to that just used jars). They look a little like this http://www.ecogreenstore.co.uk/being-fare-sprouters-p-578.html?gclid=CPuDs5qfia8CFVEjfAodzFk8_g

          You are far better buying 2 or 3 kits like the one above than buying a massive piece of equipment as small-scale is the true secret of successful sprouting. Small trays are eaiser to snaitise in emergency situations, and won’t tempt you to produce more than can be eaten at one time.

          Set a tray to sprout every other day rather than trying to produce big batches to ensure you are always eating fresh & to reduce the risk of e-coli etc.

          Only ever sprout to eat as soon as they are an inch long. Small quanities only – say enough for 2-3 meals at a time.

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        • Burt the Brit says:

          E coli can also get into sprouts and sprout seed from animal contamination. In the UK we are advised not to eat raw sprouts.

          I agree it is not as easy as it sounds, I have windowsill pots of lettuce, small herbs, chives etc that I just take what I want and let the rest continue to grow. Lettuce germinates best in cooler temperatures and does fine all year around on my north facing window sill. Not as nutritious as sprouts but greens is greens and it is better than nothing at all.

          Currently have small pots of carrots on sills in other rooms, the chartennay or golf varieties grow short and stubby instead of long and are better for pots.

          Take care

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          • Burt the Brit says:

            Ps

            Pine needles are loaded with vitamin c, chop, pour over boiling water leave to stand, sieve and drink. Not my favourite brew but vitamin c content is very high….scurvy prevention matters more than taste when regular fresh fruit is not available.

            Pps

            Try not to use Imodium (anti-diarrhoeal drug) unless you life or limbs depends on it…..it seals the bad bugs in, you can get extremely sick sealing them in, sickness and diarrhoea is your body’s way of getting the bad bugs out. Replace lost fluids with sugary drinks with a Pinch of salt added to keep you metabolites balanced.

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          • kevin says:

            Nice post burt about the bodies reaction and the function of the “squirts” so to speak. Pine tea isn’t my favorite either, but it does the job.

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    33. eeder says:

      ive said it before, and i will say it again. especially for my urban friends on here. if you dont live in a rural area, meaning in the country or in a town of no more than 500 or so people at the most you are really in a dangerous situation and i encourage you to make some kind of arrangements to get to a safer location. if you arent in a rural area.. it isnt looking good..at all.

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      • possee says:

        eeder

        I’d have to agree on that one.

        The cities here in Mass. are already crime ridden and most are on govt assistance in one form or another..should the govt teet dry up for them..all hell will break loose.

        We have many shootings and stabbings here on old Cape cod..home invasions..bank robberies etc..and this is a vacation site and very remote in some spots..go figure.

        possee

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        • John W. says:

          I have spent a couple of weeks in Brewster. Too bad to hear that the dirt bags are now also at the Cape. Great place in the Summer. Brewster beach is awesome when the tide goes out.

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      • FDR says:

        if everybody “bugs out” to rural areas, they won’t be rural anymore.

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    34. Louie says:

      I live in an apt. in a large city. I also own a home in small town, so I do have a place to go to garden, raise chickens, etc. if necessary.

      I don’t agree that an apt. is an inherently dangerous place to live in a crisis. Residents in my complex were all supportive of each other in post-hurricane situations. Just because you don’t know the folks in apt. 345 doesn’t mean they will be out to kill you when the SHTF. More likely they will be there to help you.

      My advice to anyone is to be realistic about what lies ahead. You can prepare for an asteroid to hit earth, a massive tsunami to swallow NY City, or alien invaders to destroy every city south of Detroit, but that’s not what’s going to happen. What’s going to happen is already happening. Inflation, social disorder, crime, poverty….things you see happening today. It’s just going to get worse and worse over time. We are facing cancer not a heart attack.

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      • At some point, though, I think we will break over a threshold and the cancer will turn into a heart attack.

        We have a long way to go before that happens, but, this is the time to prepare.

        My view is that people will hang together until things get really, really bad and then they’ll turn on each other.

        In my opinion, an apartment building is a dangerous place to live *NOW*. The cities are death traps *NOW*. Getting worse? Yeah but I think its already bad.

        I’m just glad I’ve got my hidden 30 acres. …that will hopefully be pumping oil by the end of the year.

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        • DaveyBoy says:

          Agreed NetRanger. It’s one thing to help one another out while awaiting the FEMA debit cards, insurance payments, and relief supplies, while the rest of the country outside your little spot on earth goes on producing, working, etc. It’s quite the other situation for it to all come down at once. However, I agree that people (at first) will band together (and the good ones will for clans together, the bad ones will form gangs that dwindle in number but increase in size, more and more), but we have to remember (as mentioned in “One Second After”) that about 1/20, 5% of the population will go absolutely mental without their meds. We used to have sanitariums, asylums, and even the isolated cottage out back etc., but now we’re, as a people, medicated. Look around you at work, church, etc. and realize that 1/30 of those people will probably turn into a maniac without their meds if something happens. It’s disturbing to me!

          I say to be kind, polite and help one another. But never, ever, ever, get into a compromising situation. You don’t know who’s gonna snap without their meds!

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          • Louie says:

            You might be right, DaveyBoy, but to think that the 80% of the population that lives in cities will just kill each other off while the rural few will go on living in their pre-planned nirvanas is just as insane as those 5% that go “mental” without their meds.

            You might be safer now, for no other reason you have less contact with people than do city dwellers, but that will change when us apt. dwelling, non-medicated mentals decide to take your little corner of paradise. We are armed, too.

            I guess, the prepping us city defects should do is to make plans to kill you and the other chicken-raisers when the SHTF. I mean what’s the point of preparing to stay where we are when all we have to do is drive out to the country and whack a few hayseeds.

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    35. Tom Chatham says:

      While I totally agree that an apartment is the last place you might want to stay one thing everyone needs to keep in mind is that not every apartment complex is in a large city. There is one near my home several stories tall in a rural town of only a few thousand and located on a river. The people in this complex cannot move to the country because they are already there. In a situation like that to shelter in place is a viable option but not without supplies and a plan. Even a well built underground shelter may not offer you complete protection if someone like me shows up and decides they want in. You still need to breathe. No location is perfect. Just food for thought.

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    36. Justincase says:

      Female chickens are very quiet unless they have a rooster(insert other name for rooster here.)around all the time. then the female will start moaning and complaining.. I wanted to make a lil joke there but I refrained incase a younger viewer. So i cleaned up my writing….could not resist though…

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    37. Louie says:

      Good post Louie! I Couldn’t have said it better myself!!
      This one’s for YOU, Lou!


      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vae_AkLb4Q

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    38. possee says:

      The potato tower is thumbs up for me.

      possee

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    39. If it appears the collapse is a deep societal changing event. IF you have an attic above you. I’d make access to it through a closet. Better to do this now. And then you have an area to hide more stuff. Maybe yourself too.

      With a little effort, you can do a professional job with some trim, just in case management shows. Deny any knowledge of it. Was there when you started renting.

      Most places have some kind of shingles. You can make holes vertically so you can see towards the ground at an angle, and then pry it up some. Enough to see out but not at an angle that will let water in. Or be noticeable to raiders on the ground.

      Fire is always a risk. If you are 2-3 floors up. Have a rope to get down from your balcony.

      You will need to think outside the box in TEOTWAWKI. Your life is far more valuable than the repercussions of a do it yourself attic access.

      AND carefully assess if any neighbors have value or will be dead weight.

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    40. KY Mom says:

      Off topic…and unbelievable!

      “Insane Michigan government announces plan to destroy ranch livestock based on hair color and arrest hundreds of ranchers as felons”

      (www.naturalnews.com/035372_Michigan_pigs_farm_freedom.html)

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      • SmokinOkie says:

        Hey KY Mom! I checked that out. Pretty unbelievable. Looks to me like a case of government protecting the monopoly of big argi-corporations. Guess the boys in Lansing know who bought and paid for their souls.
        Speaking of michigan, did anybody hear about the case against the Huttaree militia? Looks like most of the ‘suspects’ are going free and nearly all the charges tossed out by the judge. Bout dang time. I’ve thought all along that this was a case manufactured by the FBI.
        Wonder if the mainstream media will carry the dismissals as front page news for several days, like they did the original charges?

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      • possee says:

        Ky Mom

        Modeled after the stasi eugenics program…much like most of our system is now.

        Let’s hope some militia type folks stand up to these thugs.

        1st it’s raw milk..

        Now it’s the wrong hair color of your livestock?

        wtf?

        possee

        The feds are ramping up everywhere they can

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    41. Rain23 says:

      If you’re in an apartment that is highly regulated it’s worth the time to think up some cammo for your plants. Our building only allows flowers and houseplants on the patio. So on my patio is a lovely silk plant in a decorative pot, surrounded by sprouting green onions. It’s little stuff, but just a few snips off it sure does perk up the rice and beans. They’re all city folks here, they don’t even ask why my pansies smell more like pizza.

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    42. Anonymous says:

      test test test i’m being blocked from posting by the feds.

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    43. asil says:

      Huh? Damn them Michigan
      rancher felons…Where can
      i get me one?

      KY Mom, iwasn’t bein sarrcastic(sp?)
      to your post- i have an Odd
      Sence O’humour…

      Take care, :)

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    44. SmokinOkie says:

      kimintn is right. Don’t attempt to raise chickens indoors. Within a few days the ammonia smell from the waste will be intolerable. Seriously, you won’t be able to breathe.
      And, worse yet, the dry feces puts out really nasty disease carrying dust. If you live in an apartment, the best way to raise chickens would be on the patio, or the roof. Of course then you have the real possibility of theft from those pesky chicken rustlers.

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    45. lonelonmum says:

      http://www.lakeland.co.uk/14210/My-Kitchen-Food-Dehydrator

      I picked up one of these food dehydrators at the flea market last weekend. Useful for helping to store excess produce and not too large for my space challenged kitchen.

      Dehydrated food takes up less space than canned for storage.We have as much canned food stored as we have space for so this will be used to prep mostly dried apple rings, banana chips and other kid friendly fruits for extra vitamins. I’m not aiming to prep too much food for storage that requires too much water to prepare for eating. This will help supplement our existing supplies. Dried onions and peppers & herbs can help add flavour to stews soups etc.

      (Herby flatbreads are yummy. Flatbreads that can be cooked on a stove top griddle maye a useful baking skill post shtf. Think of Indian chappati’s and naan style breads.)

      I may try making some beef jerky etc for snacking on too.

      I know the excalibur dehydrators are popular but they are large scale and very expensive. Thought it might be worth showing peeps that smaller “domestic scale” options are available at a reasonable cost.

      The UK climate is too damp for being able to rely on enough sun for making sun-dried tomatoes etc. This gives the smaller household an option for making some nice deli-style goods to add to their stores at a reasonable cost. Make a batch of dried tomatoes to store in oil when tomatoes are on sale or when your garden gives a little excess.

      Dried fruit is a great option for those of us with a sweet tooth or for the kids. My son loves a handful of dried fruit and nuts to snack on, so I’ll save money on groceries even if shtf doesn’t happen.

      Dried apricots are a really valuable source of iron for ladies/anyone prone to anemia.

      Just a cheap way of adding some dietry variety for those whose canned supplies are at full storage capacity.

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      • Lonelonmum ~

        My dehydrator is very similar to yours. I use it year-round and purchase the “last day of sale” items at the grocery store for dehydration. I have tons of dried veggies and they really add to the nutritional value when you throw a handful into your soup or spaghetti sauce.

        Dried greens like kale or spinach can be crumbled and stored in a very small amount of space. They add tons of vitamins and when crumbled, are hardly noticeable in your food. (I tell my kids that it’s parsley :) )

        My dehydrator was only $30 and it has been a great investment!

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        • lonelonmum says:

          Daisy – that’s really encouraging to hear – thank you!

          How do you store your dehydrated veg? Dried spinach would be good as my son is dairy free so needs the calcium.

          Food storage buckets/mylar/vaccuum equipment is really only available online here in the UK.

          My “prepping footprint trail” is beginning to be a real concern. Too much stuff delivered by the postman, paid for with a plastic card leaves a security risk trail a mile long. For this reason I try to buy only absolute necessities this way.

          Some of my neighbours are the type that regularly buy frozen microwave “toasted” cheese sandiches & not one of them has a simple plaster to hand for dealing with a kid’s scraped knee. OPSEC is a real issue for me. I tend to use ethnic supermarkets for bulk buys of rice, beans, spices etc as I don’t look out of place shipping for these items there iykim. I can also pay cash, leaving no trail for the authorities to follow. I don’t fancy my precious rice and beans being confiscated by some “community association”.

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          • Lonelonmum ~

            I store my dried veggies in glass mason jars. I’ve always got a jar of each ingredient on the go in the kitchen and because I’m constantly dehydrating, I rotate them in all the time. I’ve stored dried veggies for just over a year thus far and they still reconstitute quite nicely and taste fine.

            Getting the last day of sale goodies might be a good way to reduce the footprint – you are only bringing home groceries that way. I don’t buy much via mail order – most of my items are purchased locally when they go on sale and I’m able to take my groceries and purchases in through the back of the house for privacy. You’re right – OPSEC is always a concern!

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      • KY Mom says:

        Lonelonmum,

        I love my dehydrator too. I agree dehydrated foods take up much less space to store.

        I found this tip on another preparedness site about how to dehydrate or dry eggs yourself. (I have not tried this myself.)

        Dying Eggs
        First, a bit of prep work. Look around in your cabinets, and get sour cream containers, mayo lids. Cut down the containers to about 1/2″, shallow enough to fit in your dehydrator trays. Put your eggs into the blender, and whip until frothy to incorporate the fatty yolk into the white. Pour into the little cups, and dehydrate until they are dry and fall out of the cups. These need to be dry, and you will know after doing them a time or two. Run them through the food processor to powder them, and then put them in the freezer for 24 hours to pasteurize them. I follow this process by vac sealing them in jars with O2 absorbers. Add about 1 tbsp. egg to 2 tbsp. water to reconstitute.

        Here is another sweet tip. You can get a brake bleeder at AutoZone for $29.99. You can order mason jar adapters from foodsaver. Put the hose on the bleeder, and a cone shaped tip. Put the tip into the jar adapter, pump the vac up to 20 Hg, and pull the tip out. You will hear the jar seal, and you can control the vacuum. It also does not wear out your foodsaver!! This also will be priceless if we ever have to live without power…!

        Has anyone else dried eggs themselves? Suggestions?

        KY Mom

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        • Awesome tips, KY Mom – I’m going to try the eggs this week!

          One question – did you notice any breakdown of the plastic from the sour cream containers? I suspect the heat is low enough that it will be fine, but I’m curious!

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          • KY Mom says:

            Daisy,

            I have never tried this myself. I just read about it and thought it was a neat idea.

            What about using microwave muffin containers set in the dehydrator?

            KY Mom

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        • Burt the Brit says:

          Could you do this in an oven?

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          • Burt the Brit says:

            Not in plastic cups of course lol

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          • KY Mom says:

            Burt the Brit,

            I would think you could dry eggs in an oven. Use a low heat temp. and just keep checking the eggs every so often.

            You could put the egg mixture in muffin tins in the oven.

            Let me know what temp. you use and how it goes.

            KY Mom

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          • The stuff that I’ve dehydrated in the oven, I’ve used a temp of about 175. The bad thing about using the oven instead of a dehydrator is that there isn’t a fan, so it takes longer and things don’t dry as evenly. And Burt, by the time you pay your electric bill for a couple of months of using the oven to dehydrate, you will have paid for an inexpensive dehydrator from Wal-Mart.

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      • Burt the Brit says:

        Thanks for the powdered egg link…I am onto it

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        • Burt the Brit says:

          Er, Daisy, this is the UK, no dehydrators here that I have found yet….of course if any of you guys know different lol

          My oven has a choice of 1 or 2 fans and I was thinking of trying it when I am cooking other stuff, that will be a higher temperature though. Oh what the hell, I am going to risk an egg and try it out, not much to lose, lots to gain.

          It’s bread and cookie cooking day tomorrow so I will let you know tomorrow evening what happened.

          Take care

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          • Burt ~ If you want to contact me via email (daisy luther at y mail dot com) I could look into the price of mailing one to you – they are $30 at Walmart here in Canada and the one I have is not exceptionally heavy. It might be worth mailing. Let me know if you are interested and we can work out the details. :)

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          • kevin says:

            @daisy- I hope you have a strong finger to hit that delete button in your mail box, I am sure your “uncle” from this comment group is e-mailing you as I type this.

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          • KY Mom says:

            Burt the Brit,

            I believe Lonelonmum is in the UK also. She found a dehydrator at a flea market. (See her post above.)

            Do you have any online “yard sales” in the UK? (Anything similar to ebay.) You would be surprised the stuff people will purchase and then decide they don’t want it anymore and decide to sell it. Keep looking. I hope you find one.

            Take care.
            KY Mom

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          • Hahahaha….yeah, Kev, I thought of that, but the addy is right there on my blog, so it isn’t as though it’s a secret. It can just go into my “stalker” file with all the rest of em! :lol:

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          • Anonymous says:

            Daisy, thanks for that…but I think lonely mom has sourced a uk one…less postage still, many thanks though.

            Take care

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          • lonelonmum says:

            Birt – my link above was to lakeland ltd – a UK company

            Another useful uk link http://www2.westfalia.net/search/index.php?suche=fact_finder&suchbegriff_fact_finder=dehydrator
            Cheapest UK dehydrator I’ve found (my flea market find was a pleasant suprise for me)

            Westfalia have allsorts of useful equipment that’s hard to a get ahold of in the UK & is one of my fave online stores for just that reason.

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          • You’re very welcome Burt (I’m figuring that’s you!) Keep it in mind if you ever need anything from my part of the orb. :)

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        • KY Mom says:

          Burt,

          Dehydrators are expensive. But, you can find them very reasonably priced at outlet stores, flea markets, Goodwill Stores, etc. I purchased a couple of them very reasonably at an outlet store – 2 for $40. They work great. :)

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          • KY Mom –

            I’m coveting one of those fancy Excalibur dehydrators but can’t bring myself to justify the high price tag!

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          • KY Mom says:

            Daisy,

            I know what you mean. I will just use what I have.

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          • lonelonmum says:

            Daisy

            I’ve been eyeing those fancy smancy excalibur models for a decade now, never been able to truly justify the cost.

            Bit worried some of the rural dwellers haven’t considered drawn out home invasions as I look at all the judgements on apartment dwellers. (In an isolated location your family could be tortured for days on end by a group of sickos. An urban city dweller will likelymeet a swifter and possibly more merciful end.) If you haven’t already please google Argentinian and Zimbawean rural home invasions and security. Isolation can in and of itself be a real security risk, in both Z & A rural folks moved to the cities for increased personal safety. Complacency wherever you are located can kill.

            The UK government has got itself into a right old pickle about a possible upcoming fuel strike and in some areas school closed today as staff went on strike.

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    46. Bug Doody says:

      I have posted this before but it bears repeating. In a true SHTF scenario if the power were out for more than a couple of weeks we would all be F’d, There are about 200? nuke plants in this country alone. They are only req’d to carry about 2 wks. of deisel fuel for their generator’s in the event of a power outage.In the event of an extended power outage we would have meltdowns world wide.Iodine doesn’t account for the truly nasty stuff. If you live in a locale/county with a nuke plant I would strongly encourage you to bring this up with your county reps. They live there too.I don’t know how much solar/wind power or other alt. energy source would be needed to keep things cool but they have to start thinking about it NOW. Food for thought. THE BUG DOODY

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      • BD,

        The nuke plants don’t have to be cooled if they withdraw the fuel rods. Its not a process they can’t control. They can shut it down so that it doesn’t need cooling anymore. The problem comes when they can’t get it shut down *AND* the cooling stops.

        BJ, don’t you know about things in this area? Am I correct?

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        • Arkaden says:

          You are correct. The 2 week requirement of diesel is to give operators the time (in the event of power loss) to withdraw the rods so that a meltdown doesn’t occur. In Japan’s case, the system was damaged and that’s more concerning should it happen close to you.

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          • kevin says:

            The nuclear reaction can be stopped in a few seconds BUT it takes ALOT more TIME to “withdraw” those rods, and for them to COOL then 2 weeks. A “meltdown” happens at around 2800 C. It is possible for some type of reactors to boil off the cooling mixture or the water in about a day, with that being said, IF we lose grid power the countdown starts at 15 to 16 days, then- byebye,byebye,byebye,byebye

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          • Kevin2 says:

            The Japanese had the diesels power backup generators that power coolant pumps powered by motors. This saved money by omitting dedicated pumps exclusive to an emergency if said pumps were connected mechanically to diesel engines. The weak chain in the link was the necessity of a generator to power motors that powered pumps. You can get a diesel running that was submerged in water real quick, they’re very forgiving.

            Given fresh diesel fuel the engine / pump combination could run for years.

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          • kevin says:

            You can write a book the size of the holy bible on coal fire power plants, with nuclear power plants the “book” is pretty small EXCEPT for the part of dealing with fuel/radiation. Look up “thorium powered” nuclear plants. QUESTION- why do we use and have spent ALL or most of our research money on the type of reactors we use?????ANSWER- NUCLEAR WEAPONS! Yeah, Iran is a “rouge” nation. Don’t kid yourselves people, the world thinks WE ARE!! Someone once posted here on shtfplan that the dollar is backed by nuclear weapons. Perhaps he is closer to the truth then all of us want to admit.

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          • kevin says:

            @kev-They DID have backup gens for the circulation pumps AND backup circulation pumps. IT IS required. Avoiding a meltdown is #1 priority. If you wread anything else about them NOT having ALL the safety protocals in place, call bull$hit on it. The main circulation pumps WERE tooken out by the tsunami BUT there were documented reports of control malfunctions(the october BEFORE the quake and tsunami). I believe AFTER the american/israeli governments gave iran stuxnet, they turned around and released it onto the world as payback(paybacks a bitch). “Conspiracy theory”??? Maybe, BUT- There seems to be ALOT more negative situations happening at nuclear power houses around the globe the last couple of years(from the reports that have “leaked out”(excuse the pun)) In my mind my “theory” is strong. The federal government DID NOT make that melt down in simi-valley public for about 50 YEARS AFTER that event(I think there was another event elsewhere, New Mexico perhaps)), so I don’t believe a word they tell me about the reactors in our country or ANY other. Hell, I don’t believe a word they say about ANYTHING anymore.

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      • kevin says:

        http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/USA_Nuclear_power_plants_map.gif

        Here is a map of nuclear reactors in the US. There should be 104 of them, if not some are “missing”.

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      • Kevin2 says:

        kevin

        They had dedicated back up pumps for coolant that were powered by motors that received it’s current from diesel powered back up generators. The weak link in the chain was the need for electricity regardless of it’s source. Water shorted out everything.

        What was needed is pumps directly coupled to diesel engines; one engine, one pump. I did almost 30 years in conventional power plants retiring as a shift supervisor with Gold Seal License. I seen plenty or close calls that made me believe God owned stock in the Refining Industry. Nothing is more comforting than a pump attached to a diesel. Our last ditch pump fed from the river and was a diesel coupled to a pump. No motor, no generator required. It’s KISS at it’s finest.

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        • kevin says:

          @kev2-I have been around the block myself. There is NO WAY they would just have ONE gen hooked up to ONE pump. NO WAY!! With something as critical as coolant circulation, in case of utility failure in EARTHQUAKE country, that would be INSANITY!!! MINIMUM they would have each pump hooked up to TWO backup gens with transferswitches in the middle to power either or, or both at the same time. Backup for back up. IF they DID just have one for one(wich I seriously doubt), at the least they would have the backup gen AND also have a transfer switch built in the line that could easily, and quickly be plugged into ANOTHER PORTABLE GENERATOR!!!! It IS SIMPLE!

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          • kevin says:

            What I meant was-At least they would have a transferswitch built in the line, that would ALLOW a potable gen to be hooked up quickly and easily. I didnt phrase the last part to good, but it IS simple.

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          • Kevin2 says:

            kevin

            You miss the point. Ten backup generators are useless under the conditions they experienced. I don’t care what kind of mix and match the weak link is the generator / motor combination. You must cut the motor / generator out of the system. It’s KISS at it’s finest.

            A diesel engine prime mover directly connected to the pump is THE most reliable and full proof system to supply water during the most adverse conditions. There is no need of battery power either because of stored compressed air turbine start is available. If the engine was submerged under water, drain the cylinders and press start.

            I have been told by National Board Inspectors that nukes have triple redundant water systems, steam turbine, motor from utility and motor from backup generator. Two of three rely on electricity which was compromised in Japan because of water.

            Direct coupled diesel to coolant pump W/O an intervening generator / motor is what was needed and what they did not have.

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        • kevin says:

          @kev-Interseting note- you know the ancient japanese people have warnings on stone tablets all over the island, WARNING people NOT TO build their homes below a certain elevation? Interesting don’t ya think!

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          • Kevin2 says:

            Their motors powering the pump were compromised regardless if a dry fresh generator was in place ready to go. It takes time to pull the rotors on the pump motors and get out the filth. Too much time.

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        • kevin says:

          @kev- oops, I think I miss wread your comment.I missed your point. I seem to run out of the barn, guns ablazing firng shots at people some times. Disreguard my rant.

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    47. VRF says:

      O/t
      The feds lose another set up of theirs..

      Acquitted Hutaree members look to future

      Acquitted Hutaree militia member Michael Meeks and his mother, Sylvia, celebrate Tuesday outside Detroit’s federal courthouse.

      Detroit— David Stone Jr. said he “couldn’t be happier” after he was acquitted Tuesday of domestic terrorism charges in the Hutaree militia case.

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    48. A lot of the comments here are very discouraging to those living in apartments. While it is far from ideal in a SHTF world, I’d hate for someone to read these comments and just completely give up on prepping.

      I believe that you have to make the best of the situation that you are in. Things in the world are too bad to wait to start prepping until the planets align, the wolf howls, and money to start your homestead falls from the sky.

      If you are in an apartment or a city, and you don’t have a way to make a change right now, don’t be discouraged. Be creative and do everything you can to make your apartment functional in a bad situation. Read the comments and look at them as warnings – use them to figure out ways to avoid the disasters and pitfalls that people foresee.

      But please don’t be discouraged – don’t give up. Your preps may give you the advantage you need to survive long enough to get out of the city after everyone else has scrapped it out on the street. Hang in there and do the best you can with what you have!

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      • Be informed says:

        @ Daisy. While it would be most prudent to try to find a rural location out of the way of masses of population competing for the tiny remaining resourses, a person cannot just give up because they are “stuck” in a location that they don’t have the financial resources or other reasons to do so. MOST EVERYONE READING THIS SITE is interested in trying to save themselves and in all likelihood attempting to figure out how to.

        We should encourage those stuck somewhere that is dangerous to try to leave as soon as possible, but not discourage them from trying to make a go of it when the calamities start to happen. As I would not find any large urban area a place to be after the world goes to hell, there will be some survivors and those will be the ones that have prepared, period.

        EVERYONE should prepare and have supplies put away, EVERYONE. To not prepare with a world ready to fall long and hard is either to live in a delusional state of mind where the Fairy Godmother is going to make everything peachy keen and fix the economy with a magic wand, or someone that has already given up without even trying. Let’s hope that no one on the is site ever gets into either one of these dangeorus states of mind.

        People can survive, IF they make the require effort to. Survival is also a choice that people make and hopefully even the apartment dweller like Daisy says have made that choice to even try.

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    49. John Hunt Morgan says:

      Basic Survival Strategies For Apartments and Confined Spaces can be summarized in two words: Get out!

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    50. michael says:

      Look at your water bill, most families use 2,000 gallons of water per month. That is including the automatic washer of course. How many gallons do you suppose
      you will use when the water is turned off? For good. Where are you going to get more water when you run out? How much food does it take to exist? How much can you store, how are you going to cook it? How are you going to refrigerate what needs to be. How are you going to heat where you live? You start talking about taking people in, when will you say we can’t take any more? Will the next be the violent ones or have you all ready taken them in? This is not a deal for a couple of weeks and things are rosey again. This deal will last for the rest of your life.Can you support or give to Joe-blow for the rest of your life, or will he help you starve to death quicker? You can not help every one, most are not worth helping. That is why they need help. I suggest each sit and think of the worst case for yourself, and think beyond that? How are you going to feed your self in a year, where are you going to get the water for a year, how are you going to heat where your at? You will find there is no way you can live in your apartment or house.

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    51. Zoltanne says:

      One of the biggest problems w/ apartment bug-in scenarios is the lack of available water needed for drinking, cleaning, and handling human waste.

      The reality of growing veggies in an apartment is not nearly as simple as the author seems to believe. First, depending upon the bug-in location, sunlight may or may not be available for the required length of time to grow and set/ripen fruit. Second, interior temps in an apartment may not be high enough for veggies to grow. At best, small leaf greens might be grown to an edible state and the best choices would be leafy greens or micro greens like mizuna, leaf lettuces, choi, and the greens from root crops like beets or turnips.

      The best choice for growing food in an apartment is to grow sprouts. Sprouts are exceptionally nutritious and take only a few days to turn a hard seed into an edible food that’s packed with vitamins. Store seeds that are organic (not chemically treated). Seeds are very small and even an apartment dweller can store a few buckets of seeds with a return that is many times bulkier than the seed itself. Wheat berries are not only used for breads but are one of the seed grains that offer great tasting sprouts that only take 24-48 hours to grow.

      IMO the best strategy for survival in an apartment (esp in urban settings) is to get out before the SHTF.

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    52. kevin says:

      http://shtfschool.com/ What is the fate of people we know who don’t see whats coming and can’t/won’t prepare? Human nature is the same the world over.

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    53. Louie II says:

      Zoltanne, I have a lake behind my apt. It’s never dry.

      The real detriment to growing veggies is the landlord. Until things get really bad, I don’t see many landlords telling the tenants to go ahead and rip up the lawn to plant summer squash. As for growing them indoors, I agree, that’s a stretch.

      My mother lived through the Great Depression as a child on a mid-west farm, and although poor, they never went hungry. Neither did most city folks. Thousands of dust bowl farmers did, and where did they go? To the cities.

      There is no magic formula for surviving tough times. Plan ahead, yes, but surviving is always a work in progress.

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      • Zoltanne says:

        Louie, A lake would make a good water source, esp if a person were prepped w/ the proper filtration and sterilization equipment/techniques. But any water source is prone to problems once hordes of people descend upon it.

        Not all apartments are in bad locations, some are in small towns or located on the outskirts and have the ability to use nearby property. If the S hits, there’s no doubt people will try to grow food where lawn once was. Hopefully a few shovels and hoes are being stored.

        I have to disagree with the dust bowl migration to the cities, though. The majority of people from the Plains migrated west, in general, into CA, OR, and WA where the richer farm land and climate was better. Many settled in and around the fertile valleys and farm land for jobs and for sustenance.

        You’re right about not having a magic formula for surviving. We can’t even forecast disasters, but one thing is crystal clear — we WILL face increasing economic problems and at a minimum, we should all prep for that scenario.

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    54. Kevin2 says:

      It appears to me that a city dweller would better spend their money on a small tent, portable water filtration device, some silver dollars, enough portable food and water for two weeks, medical supplies, a firearm and a plan to get out of where they are to someplace safer. I would consider going to a campground some distance away and vacationing there to get to know the owners and learn some skills outside of the asphalt jungle.

      There is no way you can survive in a large American city for long if the SHTF; it’s a fantasy. Cities in other countries that have farms around them are a different animal.

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      • kevin says:

        @kev-If you have not been over to shtfschool web site I highly recomend you do. He was in the $hit for about a year(not really long term) but his insights are interesting and thought provoking.

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    55. karen says:

      I am not trying to go against the person whom wrote the book, but I would not live in a city nor urban area, think of the hords of people who will bombarding your place, no matter how many weapons and ammo or how well you have boarded up your place people that are angry,crazy and starving can and will get in it’s just a matter of time. Move to the country if you have no money just walk away from your city place and what money you have rent whatever in the country a shack who cares it’s more safe than in the city with thousands of crazy people. Good article to read Henery Kissinger, If you can’t hear the war drums beat you must be deaf.

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    56. moman says:

      Get out of the apartment and get out of town. I agree with Davey.Zombies will go in mass from one aprtment to the other.Eventually fire will break out and the fire department ain’t coming.If you live in an apartment,put your preps and stores elsewhere and when the time comes make your way to them. This article is like insurance–it only gives you false peace of mind.

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    57. lonelonmum says:

      Off topic but one for US Mums to take note of.

      Terror drills – school kids relocated via bus. This article sends a chill down my spine for some reason and leaves a nasty taste of foreboding in my mouth

      http://www.infowars.com/kids-all-over-america-are-being-put-on-buses-and-sent-to-alternate-locations-during-school-terror-drills/

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    58. Pam says:

      Thank you so much for mentioning making peace with God. I think the most important kind of prepping is to prepare our hearts. Repentance from our sins is a process that we need to start now. It’s our sins that have gotten us into this mess. Though I can see that our society and the world are on the brink of collapse, I actually have peace because I know that God will not let bad things happen to me unless they were meant to be. He would no more allow us to suffer needlessly than any other good father would let his children suffer for no reason. Anyway, I am mostly a lurker, but thanks for at least acknowledging that prepping for the survival of our bodies is not all there is to do. :-)

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    59. kevin says:

      http://www.viciousbabushka.com/2009/04/pat-buchanan-insane-antisemite.html Man, NOW I see why pat buchanan was fired!! WOW!! He is an “insane” anti-semite. He is the only SANE person in this video!

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    60. kevin says:

      http://www.viciousbabushka.com/2012/02/index.html Oh my god, the 1% have it sooo bad. “people who don’t have money just don’t understand the stress”. Fido (which cost $17,000 a year to feed,walk, and groom) Is suffering. “I might have to pull my 3 kids out of private schools. They also try to through one of the schiffs under the bus(350,000 a year is not 1% money)

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      • Stoosh says:

        I believe that this Schiff is the son of Peter Schiff, the famous investor from Euro Pacific Capital. Sounds like he works with his Dad. I can’t fault him. I worked with my Dad before he sold his company and he was the best boss ever. I learned so much from him. I should have learned how to make more money so I could have bought Dad’s bidness. Oh, well. I’m unemployed and trying to reinvent myself.

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        • Stoosh says:

          Correction: I CAN fault Schiff the Younger for the whiny, self-entitled attitude displayed in the article. I cannot fault him for choosing to work with his Father.

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    61. kevin says:

      http://www.viciousbabushka.com/2012/02/epic-fail-cheap-vodka-returns-with-cheaper-stereotype.html A vodka company had a sign last year that said “christmas quality, hannuka pricing” They were called anti-semetic, so they changed it this year to……………… Must see. FUNNY!

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    62. preparedfish says:

      I was just thinking after reading.
      What about protein/vitamin drinks/shakes that come in powder form. Has anyone looked into this for prepping? It seems to me it would be a good item to substitute for a meal as some are loaded with vitamins and minerals.
      Any input would be appreciated. I am going to check it out… Shelf life would be another thing to consider..

      Prep a little every day..

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    63. Death N Taxes says:

      ha ha…my first impression of this article as titled: “Prepping for the finincilaay challenged” was for the non-financially challenged to defend themselves from the financially challenged WTSHTF….

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    64. Winston Smith says:

      The problem with apartment prepping is similar to suburban prepping: You can’t realistically stay there long term in a really bad situation. Therefore, I wouldn’t waste too much of your resources storing food. I would venture to guess that two months worth is about the most you would need because if it lasted much longer than that you’d be dead anyways. This is the problem I am confronted with in my own situation. Right now, I am mostly prepping for a stable decline where chaos does not reign supreme. As such, I am trying to farm a small suburban lot, collect rain water, store a few months of food, etc. However, I am also trying to work on a plan B.

      Keep in mind that I make 20-25k a year before taxes and you will see why I am considering the path I am looking at. I have found that there are people selling land for hunting in remote areas of my state for $3-5k per acre. So, my idea is to buy at least 2 acres of this land and either build a very primitive cabin or buy a small camper I could tow there in the event off an emergency. For water, I am trying to plan a rain water collection system. I have considered building a basic roof system that I could park the camper under and that would allow the collection of rain water as well as provide shade from direct sunlight to the camper. For food, these areas are over run with feral pigs and have a substantial deer population. However, I would also need vegetables so I would seed the land with food that could grow wild. This way, I would have easy forage that could conceivably be dug up and replanted close to the homestead if the need ever arose. Sanitation would be by outhouse (or a log over a hole). It’s primitive, but would be a good place to survive away from the chaos of the major population centers. Plus, the land is cheap enough that it would be relatively affordable to buy with some judicious austerity. I would try to buy it cash so as to not have a mortgage on the land in case of an economic collapse. It’s not a perfect solution but it would be preferable to trying to survive in an area filled with hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of starving people who posses no basic survival skills other than resorting to violence.

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      • DaveyBoy says:

        Winston, I assume you live in the U.S. (For some reason, “Winston” always makes me think of Brits, lol). There is something called a “USDA Rural Housing” loan. This is a loan that you can get through any lender, but is insured by the USDA. It ONLY applies to rural areas (no cities or suburbs, unless you live in a rural county). There is a maximum income amount (per family) and maximum purchase price (it’s high, but ballpark, I’d say 2-300K max home price) requirement that varies by area, but based on what you said, I’m pretty sure you’d qualify. This type of loan requires no money down, and covers traditional houses and land, but not a mobile/prefab trailer home. It doesn’t require the same types of hoops as an FHA or HUD home, either.

        I realize that people want as little government involvement in home ownership as possible, but they’re just the insurers, not the lenders. Government is already in everyone’s business, so it’s probably better to be out in the boonies, if you can. And besides, if push came to shove, it’s better to get out to your own place that you can do what you want with, in my opinion. Anyway, it’s just an option. It takes about a month to do. I have a friend who just got one. Makes 20K per year, got a house for 105k, no money down. Principle, Interest, Insurance, taxes, and everything are under 600/month. That bought a 1500 sq foot house on an acre with out buildings and fruit trees, etc. My friend wanted a house for a long time, but thought it was impossible to get. Turns out, it wasn’t. You could look at your area and get a realtor to answer some questions (your realtor is paid by the seller, and costs you nothing), it’s very easy to get one of these loans, but no pressure.And it takes about 30 days from the time you make an offer to the time you close. Interest rates are low now, but who knows for how much longer. Just an idea.

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    65. don't-tread says:

      I wonder how many of my prepping friends here actually live in a big city? L.A., N.Y.,Miami,Houston,Chicago? I name these because of bordering water on one side that would limit escape routes. In 2007, after already being a beginning prepper for a few years, I was trucking as a driver trainer from N Carolina to Los Angeles area every week. That’s about 5400 miles every week. One run was 5900 miles in five days. That is a lot of windshield time. I pondered about everything from a single cell amoeba to the return of Jesus Christ. While stuck in L.A. traffic,trying to get back east on I-10 one particular time,near south central, about four hours to go 70 miles and still four lanes bumper to bumper; I thought what if? What if I had been born into this area and an apartment close to the coast in central L.A. was home. In the worst case scenario, WTF would I do to survive? Since I had experienced aftershocks during a 3 day layover in 1994,a week after Northridge quakes; I had a quick flash of that event in my head as I was pondering about all this. Opps, just about cut off a CHIP on a scooter, he’s giving me the stinkeye and I’m waving sorry and smiling like a mule eatin’ saw briars. Whew! no ticket this time. Anyway, I made a mental escape plan for my make believe L.A. apartment living situation. Knowing it would be almost impossible to drive a vehicle out of the city, well maybe a moped or bicycle, I wondered which direction. I have driven into the 10 milliom plus population center of L.A. from every direction possible in a Big truck, so I knew where the best possibility of going to woodlands, with water, was gonna be. So I figured as my first step, I’d drive to the highest and most remote area, that I could feasibly walk to in about two days, and find a secure location to dig a hole and bury a stash of food and clean water and clothes and a gun with plenty of ammo in a big metal barrel with a sealing steel clamping lid. There would need to be a source of fresh water nearby, not rock throwing distance, but close enough to get to without being detected. With 10 million people, you know you aren’t the only person to have such a plan to get to a clean water source. Next step, would be to drive on further, about three or maybe four hiking days away and do the same thing on a larger scale to make a more permanent dwelling. Hoping to be secluded enough that I wouldn’t be easily spotted. This whole hypothetical scenario would be time consuming and rather costly to put in place. But for me, knowing what could happen, especially in a big city if the power grid goes down for months or years; you gotta get out to survive. With this plan, and living deep into any city, I could rest better knowing I had an escape plan in place. The initial hike to first stash would be the toughest because of dealing with others. Maybe you would find two or three to travel and possibly team up with for this first leg. You might have to give them the slip though and carry on the second day to get to your bivouac location. The “more may not be merrier” situation is always possible and with limited food available, you might end up without enough to get you through to make it to your next stash about and better, bigger, more permanent hide-away. Anyways, just wanted to put that out there for city dwellers to think about.

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