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    Freeze Dried Food Update: Shortages Will Continue In 2011, Largest Manufacturer Suspends Distribution To Smaller Dealers

    Mac Slavo
    February 18th, 2011
    SHTFplan.com
    Comments (100)
    Read by 3,000 people

    In December of 2010 Oregon Freeze Dry, the manufacture of the popular Mountain House brand of freeze dried food products, advised that confirmed that an explosion in demand had led to supply shortages at their production facilities. Mountain House retail sales manager Melanie Cornutt advised SHTF Plan that larger distributors and dealers were receiving limited stocks of inventory, and that Mountain House was unable to provide freeze dried foods in #10 cans to smaller distributors due to significant global demand. “We anticipate this to continue through February/March of 2011. This timing may change, but as of today, this is the best estimate we have,” said Cormutt in a December 10th, 2010 correspondence.

    A February 9, 2011 faxed letter from Mountain House to customers, and made available online by Steve Quayle, indicates that the supply issues have not abated, and Mountain House continues to experience high demand for their freeze dried food products, specifically the #10 cans, which are larger quantity containers that can hold up to 13 cups, or roughly six pounds, of food.

    Oregon Freeze Dry Letter to Customers [pdf] via Steve Quayle:

    This is an update on Oregon Freeze Dry’s #10 can situation. Because the demand for our #10 cans remains very high, we continue to be unable to meet all #10 can needs. OFD is allocating as much of our Production Capacity as possible to this market segment, while still allowing us to meet requirements in other markets.

    Unfortunately, we cannot open sales to all previous dealers. We continue to sell allocated quantities to our long-time, largest customers/distributors.

    We expect this situation to remain until at least this summer. At this point, we are not able to predict an actual date as to when we can open sales to all current dealers.

    I wanted to share with you a recent company announcement to show that we are working on making improvements to be able to address these sudden increases in food storage demand. Our President, Jim Merryman, has signed off a multi-million dollar capital project to make some plant modifications that will increase our capacity. These modifications will start in May 2011 and we estimate the project to be complete by September 2011.

    I know how difficult this situation is for each of you and your business. I truly feel your frustration and OFD is working incredibly hard to turn this situation around as quickly as possible.

    Sincerely,

    Oregon Freeze Dry, Inc.
    Melanie Cornutt
    Sales Manager, Retail

    This supply crunch with the largest freeze dried manufacturer in the world should provide insight into the general sentiment of Americans with regards to the perception that hard times are coming, or are already here, and that many believe things can get much worse.

    As we pointed out in our December 2010 report, both Mountain House and several of their largest distributors, advised us that the primary reasons cited for growing demand were fears of a collapsing US dollar due to monetary expansion, loss of confidence in in our government to control the economic crisis, and rising food costs worldwide.

    It’s obvious based on the difficulty Mountain House is having in keeping up with demand that end consumer purchasing is not a result of more Americans requiring freeze dried food for camping trips.

    People are stocking up – just in case.

    While freeze dried food may not be readily available, we recommend to those of our readers concerned with rising food prices and the possibility of disruptions to US food supply inventories resulting from a collapsing currency or other disasters, that they focus instead on reserve and long-term storage utilizing non-freeze dried food products.

    • Dehydrated food, which are simply processed via a dehydrator by removing the majority of its liquid. They will store for extended periods of time, especially if packaged properly utilizing  vacuum sealing techniques and/or oxygen absorbers. Dehydrated carrots, apples and milk, for example, have a shell life of over 15 years if dehydrated and sealed properly.
    • Dry Goods such as wheat, rice, beans, pastas and instant oats if stored properly utilizing #10 canning, large buckets with mylar bags and oxygen absorber packets, or vacuum sealed bags and oxygen absorber packets, can store upwards of 20 years. For the time being, these goods are readily available at grocery stores, though some large bulk suppliers have advised supply problems have been developing for several months as crops around the world have been damaged due to drought and freezing weather.
    • Meals Ready to Eat. MRE’s are an excellent substitute for freeze dried food and can be used as a simple 30 – 60 day reserve food supply. Depending on the temperatures in the environment in which they are stored, MRE’s can last from 5 – 7 years, and anecdotal evidence suggests it is even longer than that. MRE’s are still available from preparedness product distributors for the time being.

    In general, freeze dried food is only part of a complete food preparedness plan which should include a variety of foods, as well as sugar, salt, dry soups, jams, dried fruit drinks and cooking essentials like oil, baking soda and yeast.

    The freeze dried food supply crunch is a significant indicator of a developing trend. Higher food prices and less supply is going mainstream already. Buyers of freeze dried food, often people who are “in the know” in terms of non-mainstream news, are the first adopters. The rest of the populace will eventually catch on, at which point we may very well see Oregon Freeze Dry’s problems hit larger, traditional distributors, especially if we happen across a currency crisis that forces people to exchange their dollars for hard goods or face a complete loss of purchasing power.

    We maintain, as we wrote in Wealth Preservation, Investing, and Prepping For Hard Times, that purchasing commodities (food) now, can only benefit you and your family in the long run:

    “If you are a prepper, for example, who is already stocking essentials foods and goods, you’re way ahead of the game. As commodity prices continue to rise for a variety of reasons, your “investment” is paying off in real terms. Buy 10 pounds of rice today for $10, and when that same bag of rice goes to $20 a year or two from now, you can say you earned a 100% return on your investment! And the great thing about your investment, is you don’t have any counter party risk, for the most part, meaning that you own the physical good and it is in your possession — you take delivery at any time!”

    Those who took our advice a year ago have have made double digit percentage gains on their “hard asset” investments to date, but more importantly, have peace of mind knowing that if the worst were to occur they won’t go hungry.

    Please Spread The Word And Share This Post
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    Author: Mac Slavo
    Views: Read by 3,000 people
    Date: February 18th, 2011
    Website: www.SHTFplan.com

    Copyright Information: Copyright SHTFplan and Mac Slavo. This content may be freely reproduced in full or in part in digital form with full attribution to the author and a link to www.shtfplan.com. Please contact us for permission to reproduce this content in other media formats.

     

    100 Comments...

    Vote: Click here to vote for SHTF Plan as a Top Prepper Web Site
    1. yourdaddy says:

      The window to make your final preparations is quickly coming to a close….We are on a VERY short clock now.  Do NOT put off for another day whatever it is you have left to do.  Make this a priority TODAY. 

      The problem with trying to get to the exits now, is so is everyone else. 

      The thing about chain reactions is that they are exponential in nature.  The “prepper” movement starts out as 1 telling 2, 2 telling 4, 4 telling 8 etc…That kind of a reaction takes a very long time to get rolling, but once it does, it becomes a runaway freight train.

      What’s that I hear in the distance…?  choo-choo.
      -Dad

      Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    2. Gods Creation says:

      I’ll just a get a couple of more Twin Packs of Jiff peanut butter and some Smuckers grape jelly.  That is one thing I can always eat, and it stores for a long time too.

      Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    3. I think many people assume that collapse will be this like overnight gaboom! We wake up and everything has fallen down, absolute anarchy, chaos, entropy. Personally, I don’t think that’s their plan. This “collapse” is going to get stretched out for at least 10 years while they milk the masses for every drop of life force that can be squeezed out of an unfrozen, freeze dried turnip.

      Regarding Freeze dried foods, even the non-gmo, organic, wholesome, “fabulously scrumptious” brands are “acid” to the system,  and dehydrate the body over time. Fine for camping or to supplement a fresh meal, but over the long haul, as the primary fuel, can do more damage the good. Got to drink gallons of water to stay hydrated eating that lifeless food. Don’t get me wrong, in a pinch I’d inhale it, but your better off grazing on wheatgrass. Grow your own, to be sure, year round (how ever you can manage or where ever that takes you).

      Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

    4. J.Napolitano says:

      No need to worry your FEMA camp is fully stocked with food and remember if you see something say something!

      Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    5. yourdaddy says:

      Euro-Americano-

      You are correct on the sodium content of FD foods.  Very high.  Has to be to store well for up to 30 years.  Nothing a Big Berkey can’t help offset.  And yes, ideally, if you have a small plot of land that is ariable and you can control it & the elements, best to eat organic…But the old maxim of “Beggars & choosers” resounds.

      Also, with all due respect, 10 years?  Seriously?  I had a back and forth with a few on this board (I think Durango and one other) who arbitrarily suggested 2-3 more years.  They didn’t offer any evidence in support of that belief (nor do they have to) it was mostly just a hunch…They may be right, who knows?

      But 10 years.  That would be a fascinating trick.  While the majority are still “sheeple” when it comes to being enlightened about the true agendas, there is a rapidly growing swell of distrust & malcontent with our leadership.  They will soon find it “tough sledding” as they attempt to implement QE3-5 or cancel union agreements, or continue to print currency, or endure the market’s upcoming failure to deliver epidemic in PM’s, or continue to try and increase the Federal debt ceiling…etc..etc..

      And doing this in an environment that already has
      44Million on Food stamps
      22% unemployment
      World Riots currently underway…and growing

      No need to debate this topic, as neither of us can truly support timeframes.  I’m just surprised that anyone could think this delapitated jalopy could limp along for another 10 years.  If anyone out there agrees with EA’s assesment, feel free to disregard the urgency I shared in the original post.
      Peace
      -Dad
         

      Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    6. Anonymous says:

      The boat is sinking.  MH food rules…

      Mike

      Rate This Comment: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

    7. MadMarkie says:

      Yo Dad ~

      I see a much shorter project time-line for the ‘let’s-crash- the-United-States-Economy’ project than even the 2 thru 3 year window.

      Most of the states are broke and won’t be receiving any more ‘stimulation’ from the Fed. Govt. New Jersey, Wisconsin and New York City are just the first ones out of the gate.

      And if the nitwits in DC actually shut the government down on March 4th???? Things could get very interesting very quickly.

      God Bless & good luck to all.

      Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    8. michelle says:

      stock rice, beans, salt, corn, wheat, cooking oil, and grow a garden to give you something fresh and full of living enzymes to eat the staples with.

      Get some chicks for your kids this Easter and then keep them…eggs and meat – make sure you have a rooster if you want to keep it going…

      Berkey or Katadyn water filter…

      Rain barrels

      Guns

      Ammo

      Steel doors & window bars

      Antibiotics, colloidal silver, painkillers, and stock up on your prescriptions (or better yet wean yourself off them)..

      shampoo, soap, toilet paper, paper plates, etc

      Composting toilet!!

      Candles, sun oven, propane & way to cook, heat with it…solar panels…

      Set to go?

      Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    9. Wanda Perry says:

      Its starting to roll down hill fast–Walmart just raised butter 60 cents a pound in one week.  Don’t forget matches, extra socks, jeans, anything you wear made out of cotton. Buy all you can–you are saving a ton of money if you move fast.!! Best of luck to you all.

      Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    10. GA Girl says:

      @MadMarkie
      What is that about the government shut down March 4?

      Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    11. shoemaker says:

      Honeyville is a better value than Mt. House, IMO. 

      yourdaddy & EA-  I think your both right….It will take years before a new system can be completely rolled out.  However, I certainly don’t want to rely on having 10 years to finish prepping–maybe that’s not what you meant.  With the rate things are moving, we could very well wake up tomorrow to find an EMP blast, or significant financial catastrophe has occurred.  Nothing surprises me anymore. 

      Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    12. @ yourdaddy.

      I wouldn’t call it a dilapidated jalopy quite yet. From my vantage point, if TV’s, radios, newspapers  and the internet weren’t filling the airwaves between our ears with their various mind altering substances, it might be difficult to tell that we are about to come apart at the seams, at least in my region, tomorrow.  Yeah, real estate prices are very cold, but agents aren’t committing suicide in droves. Food prices may skyrocket but that won’t be the end of life as we know it. Our “transition period” is definitely gaining momentum and building up steam, but the “crash” keeps getting delayed. At least in America.

      Since 1981 I’ve been “preparing” for “collapse”, or, maybe better said, some kind of disturbance on a massive scale. Not bunker mentality but collecting tangible, sustainable assets while improving my skill level with the basics, i.e. gaining as much advantage on the different levels of living to navigate through whatever reared its ugly heard.

      However, once those highly sophisticated arabs were allowed to miraculously perform their incredibly picture perfect kamikaze crashes in the various “unprepared and unsuspecting” buildings, the ante went up and so did my attention. I was absolutely convinced that we would see the total meltdown in 08, but it didn’t happen. I believe it should have. All the indicators pointed in that direction. And every day since I expected something to happen. Not that events aren’t taking place on a daily basis, but commerce moves on and I sincerely believe that Forces on a Cosmic level are interceding so as to delay and dilute the harshness of those inevitable lessons we have yet to learn.

      Humans continue to thrive in various regions around the globe. The turmoil in North Africa along with the Middle East would seem to be the fuse to ignite the melt down. Maybe so, but what is melt down? Rioting on every street in every town and village in America? We’ll probably see pockets here and there where the “dilapidated jalopy’s” finally break down, but not everywhere . Global wars, here and there. But not a complete standstill of anything and everything.

      Personally, I would embrace a total melt down. Why? Because most people are living in denial in their picture postcard world of make believe and they need a swift kick in the cranium to rattle the marbles around so as to “feel” life as it really is. I WANT the old system to collapse. It’s failed miserably and needs a complete, total overhaul from bottom up. Humans have become overshadowed by the binding influence of this phenomenal world, to the exclusion of the absolute phase of reality. When the shake down occurs, for those who plan to make it to the other side, it won’t be how many gold doubloons one has, how much freeze dried grits, how many rounds of .50 for their counter-counter sniper rifle or how many friends in high places. It’s going to be how in tune one is with the Elements. How grounded, centered and stable one has become while the wildfires burn in all directions. Some people might live in a world where they see very little upheaval and suffering even though the town next door gets leveled. It really boils down to Karma, or Fate, (what kind of life one has lived up to this point) and, where one puts ones attention, for now and into the future. I have guns, and I know how to use them, but I don’t flaunt them or worship them like many seem to do. In fact, I dread the day when I might have to use them on another human being. It won’t be a pretty picture. Even in the defense of those who are good people. It’s a day I’m hoping to be ushered past without falling prey to repercussions. So the guns stay out of view, out of mind, but they are there for security.

      Lot’s of humans are going to not make it. But hasn’t that always been the case. We’re all going someday, anyway, so best stay Present and focus on what uplifts the Spirit.

      Rate This Comment: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

    13. RebelYell says:

      Comments…..

      Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    14. RebelYell says:

      Well, it is time to evaluate your family’s supply of food vs. Your skepticism over Beck/Mac type concerns of chaos and coming shortages.  Are you brave enough to do nothing?

      But first please pray for the Freedom Fighters being slaughtered without a gun in their hands in the middle east.  Forget religion, these are humans raising their voices about freedoms and being shot by tyranny. The NWO is trying to convince us it’s us vs. them.  No. We are all human and most love God…  It’s too late.  It’s the NWO plan in action.  You hate them and  we don’t even know them. I’m watching the videos and seeing fathers, sons, brothers, and patriots fall without a weapon in their hand.  Insane. I wish I could take 15 of my redneck friends to Bahrain to show them why American Freedom Fighters kick f’ng ass and ask NOTHING in return but FREEDOM for all.  They are just like us. They love their families, too.  Pray for them.

      Obama’s problem is that we are armed, stocked and willing.  Pass it on.  Prepare.  I will never hurt an American who protects our Freedoms. Damn those that think our Freedoms are for the taking.  Damn them to hell.

      Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    15. sausagefingers says:

      This could be on the news tonight.
      ( if the teleprompter breaks down)
      A Message from the President of the United States.

      You folks have nothing to worry about. I would never let anything happen to my people. All 58 states worth. I promise food shortages will not apply to anyone making less than 250,000 per year. I promise to cap the price of food so everyone can afford it. I promise the food we are ordering for the FEMA camps will be enough to feed everyone that shows up. I Promise that you will get the best medical care possible for free and a Flu shot to boot.  S*it I’ll even throw in a brand new GM car for the first 10,000 people to show up to their friendly, family holding facility. I’ll be sending buses around, no need to drive in. So don’t worry no matter what happens me and Michelle will be OK.

      Anyone reading this site is more in the know than the average TV watching sheeple. The worst usually happens when you least expect it.
      Wait no longer finish those preps. The spike in food prices IS coming. De-hydrate http://dehydrate2store.com/, vacuum seal, learn to can. Good luck. 

      Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    16. EA: Regarding your ten year projection, it all depends on your definition.  In my way of thinking, the S has officially HTF when most grocery stores have large numbers of empty shelves most of the time.  That’s the official green light for looting, hijacked trucks, stores giving up and staying abandoned, farms being ransacked for food, and general chaos. It seems more like weeks or months away, rather than years. It doesn’t matter if we disagree on the timing, duration, or severity of problems. The important thing is preparing for whatever comes our way.  Anyone who doesn’t take preparations seriously is placing far too much faith in a terribly flawed system that can get real nasty in the blink of an eye.

      Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    17. Dboy says:

      Guess you can take the “when” off your “when it hits the fan”…it’s happening now.

      Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    18. Dboy says:

      “Obama’s problem is that we are armed, stocked and willing.”

      Will be getting more .45 tomorrow. There had been a .45 shortage here for quite awhile but I hear the inventory is back (temporarily).

      Rate This Comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    19. manos says:

      Michelle,

      Strong advices and thank you. Let me tell you about the chickens in Greece.
      do you remember some years ago the whole panic about the bird flu? The Greek government decided then to prohibit the existence of chickens, ducks, and gooses especially in cities.
      Until then, most households with a small back yard, had their chickens and of course fresh eggs for their kids. Nobody was bothered and neighbors had no problem.
      After this stupid law all kinds of snitches started to call the police in the sight of a single bird.
      It makes you wonder. They first create a problem. They let the problem develop. Finally they provide the government accepted solution.
      The worst thing is that there was no problem in the first place.
      Now we hear that the codex alimentarius is about to be implemented this April. Probably private gardens and rain water collection will be penalized.

      What a shity times we have entered…

      Manos

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    20. just me says:

      same old story,times are tough so MH tells the little guy that they can’t sell to them, so when and if times ever get better in our time, MH should be boycotted by the little guy,

      Rate This Comment: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

    21. Cindyy says:

      Comments…..I just wish I had extra money to buy food, clothes, water, etc. for my family to store for a crisis.  All my money goes for survival for today!  My last $20 for the month just went in the gas tank and hope it’s enough to take me to work and take/pick up kids from day care next week until I get paid on March 1.  I am so worried about everything that it keeps me up at night.  I’m also extremely worried about my family’s safety in the apartment we live in.  All I can do is pray.

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    22. 11 Bravo says:

      As far as anything lasting 10 years, I think the Japanese downturn has been going on for 15 years or more now ?
      I don’t know if we’ll crash overnight, several weeks, many months, or do a slow burn for years. I wish I  knew…..

      As for prices, my Levi’s are now sale priced at $32.99 compared to $22.99 two years ago, and the regular price is $40.99 instead of $31.99.
      I bought 3 more 50lb bags of Blue Diamond rice at Costco last week. It is now $17.80 for 50 lbs compared to $14.50 just 90 days ago….

      I am wondering what to store in 5 gallon buckets next ?  I have rice and pasta so far, salt and sugar is next…..

      Any advice on the following Michelle ? ( I also pressure can)
      —-Flour ?   I don’t know how to use it, I guess I’d better learn. Bleached or un-bleached?
      —-Wheat ?   Same problems as flour.
      —-Beans ?  What kind ?

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    23. The hungry among us in the human community must, absolutely must be fed now here because we can do so and we are bound to care for them. But how do we begin to move toward the achievement of this goal? If we hold steadfastly to the necessity of assuring a sustainable population in a sustainable world for the children, how do we feed those who are hungry and starving, and simultaneously not keep ‘feeding the problem’ posed to the family of humanity by the human overpopulation of Earth?
       
      If the outrageous per-capita overconsumption and individual hoarding, the reckless large-scale corporate overproduction of unnecessary stuff and resulting pollution, and the unbridled overpopulation of Earth are occurring synergistically, then the human community is soon to be confronted with formidable global ecological threats. Somehow the human-induced global predicament, however colossal, that all are observing and some are discussing has got to acknowledged as well as addressed and overcome as a whole. Think of the global predicament as a rope made from three colossal strands. Because overpopulation, overproduction and overconsumption activities by the human species are occurring synergistically and on such a gigantic and soon to become patently unsustainable scale, taking hold of one of the strands will not change the course of events. All three strands will have to be simultaneously grasped carefully, skillfully and humanely somehow. What appears before us is a super ordinate challenge, unlike anything seen in the course of human history, I suppose.
       
      Perhaps what we need, even if it is not all we need, is an adequately functioning democracy, but first ordinary people will have to liberate ourselves from the pernicious, widely shared and consensually validated thinking of a tiny minority in the human community who extol the virtue of greed mongering as good, as an activity to be valued most highly.

      Even an enlightened dictator is not a person in whom I could place much faith. We need for duly elected, common people who are chosen by a society to accept the responsibilities and fulfill the duties of leadership by meaningfully embracing democratic principles and eschewing greed, by not “selling out” to greed mongers.

      It appears that the most arrogant, foolhardy and avaricious, self-proclaimed masters of the universe among us rule the world in our time, and rule it absolutely. This situation is bold evidence of a corruption of democracy, not an example of the reasonable exercise of democratic principles and practices. These circumstances are not only a colossal insult to humanity, but also are a clear and present danger to global biodiversity, Earth’s frangible environs, its limited resources and to a good enough future for the children.
       
      Democracy requires representatives who reject the entreaties and bribes of greedmongers. They also need to embrace principles and practices that promote long-term well being of the great majority of people and not only the short-term desires and fantasies of masters of the universe. 
       
      By the way, where did the ‘Homo hubris hubris’ idea for the name “Homo sapiens sapiens” originate? 

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    24. SmokinOkie says:

      Title for todays tip- “Stock Up and Shut Up”….I’ve only recently begun posting here but I’ve been reading shtfplan daily for a year and a half. Some of my comments may seem silly (hey, it’s just my feeble attempt at comic relief) but I really am serious about staying informed and doing the best I can to get prepared. Following a brief stint as a public school teacher I started driving an 18 wheeler.(and, no that wasn’t me that cut you off in traffic yesterday- and next time don’t flip the bird at me) I can tell you that most of the people in this country are NOT prepared for any long term hardships. The JIT
      (just in time) delivery system is nearly universal. It’s just the way most businesses operate today. They have little or no warehouse storage in back of the store. So, any delay for the trucks means the stores simply run out of product. Usually this is resolved in a day or two when the trucks start delivering on schedule again. But sometimes it takes a lot longer for the kinks to get worked out of the supply chain. When the disruption is not the trucks but something farther back down the supply line- like growing the grain or milling it into flour, then producing the finished product- then the shortages at your local store last much longer. You already knew all this but the point I’m trying to make is that Americans are NOT READY for hard times. They spend more money on batteries for the tv remote than they do on food storage. To them “food storage” is discovering that month-old half package of baloney in the back of the fridge. Yes, some folks are waking up. The story about Mtn House shows that. It was “explosion in demand” that created the shortages. That’s a good thing if it means more people are aware. But let’s never forget that when the schtuff really hits the fan,  when the masses realize there IS NO resupply of twinkies in the pipeline then things are gonna get real dicey. That’s when the test is for your secutiry measures and how well you’ve kept your mouth shut and your preps hidden before the chaos. As a Christian I will do all I can to help -even those idiots that are doing nothing today to prepare. What I won’t do is give information about what I have, how much, or where it is to anyone that I wouldn’t trust with my life. Maybe I’m too cynical but I believe humans are capable of unthinkable cruelty to one another when they are desperate. As we get closer to whatever is coming, remember now is not the time to let your operational security slip. Ultimately it is God who will sort it all out.  If you don’t yet know Him, now would be a great time to get acquainted. (but don’t let me start preaching or we’ll be here all day!)  Note to YourDaddy: just wanted you to know that in spite of my sometimes silly ramblings, Jesus is my Lord and Savior. Your reply to my comment on the Wisconsin teacher protest thread yesterday was welcomed and appreciated. Thanks brother.

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    25. manos says:

      SmokinOkie,

      Very good comments regarding the jit, and the connection to society’s pace.
      You’re right and it’s not only an American “privilege” to live this kind of life. Many of my fellow Greeks (most of them actually) live a day full of next top model, xfactor, fast food, expensive clothes and cars, and last but not least: the restaurant. We spend thousands of euros to have dinner in some tavern or restaurant.
      But, there is a but here. Have you read Cindy’s comment above?
      There are also a big number of people who cannot organize a plan because simply their money are only enough for day-to-day survival.
      We see it here also, and we are talking about survival only. Cheaper food options, cheaper clothes, restricted car rides only for kids classes, absolut control to electricity, heat, telephone, water, laundry. For some Greek families nowadays, kids classes are a luxury from science fiction.
      With the new laws being implemented all over the globe, higher education will be very costly.
      And there comes a time when you don’t have any other expenses to cut. You just buy the essentials to feed yourself.
      As this artificial crisis establishes and austerity measures are being implemented, more and more families will not be able to make some preparation.
      So i’m not sure if it’s about idiots or about victims of the system.

      Respectfully

      Manos

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    26. overtheedge says:

      God’s Creation. Good choice on PB&J. Might I suggest topping it off with shortening/oil and Krusteaz instant pancake mix (pancakes as bread). Cheap and nutritious, just add a multi-vitamin and some greens.
      European American. Since ’74 or so, Arab oil embargo. I made a few wrong calls on when myself. Never underestimate the will of government to attempt a rescue. The problem is always the same, the rescue ship has been taking on ice from the storm and despite the efforts of the crew to keep the ice knocked off, the ship will go turtle. When? I ain’t no weatherman, but I know the winds change, weather happens and water freezes. A bit more and “when hell freezes over” happens.

      I shall mourn. Not for what was, but rather for what should have been. What future have we left our children and grandchildren? We all participated in the economy and in doing so we became part of the problem. Yes, a few lived within their means. But even they became dependant upon the economic system for their needed/wanted goods and services.

      Until we accept this, we will never grasp economics and commerce. It is commerce that helps prevent armed conflict. Commerce demands communications. Communications fosters trust. It ain’t rocket science.

      There are lots of dried and canned foods out there. I like good champagne, but I’ll settle for home-brew. Or if I can’t have the best, should I just do without? Each must make that decision for themselves. Winds change. And with change comes opportunities we can little imagine. Rickshaw kits.

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    27. Comments…..Wanda Perry
      February 18th, 2011 at 9:00 pm
      Its starting to roll down hill fast–Walmart just raised butter 60 cents a pound in one week.  Don’t forget matches, extra socks, jeans, anything you wear made out of cotton. Buy all you can–you are saving a ton of money if you move fast.!! Best of luck to you all.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Incandescent bulbs, brooms.

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    28. SmokinOkie says:

      Steven Earl Salmony-Well now, I just can’t let this go without a comment. First of all, I’m not trying to be unkind or pick a fight with you. Honestly. But there’s a lot of sand mixed with several grains of truth in what you said. Let me see if I can sift through them for us. Admittedly I’ll probably fail since, hey, I’m just an ignorant-ass Okie. But a high probability of failure never stopped me before, so here goes:
      1- the hungry among us must be fed. No argument there. We all have a responsibility to do ALL we can for those in need. 2-assuring a sustainable population in a sustainable world. Who gets to define what “sustainable” is? My definition of sustainable population may be a few tens of billions more or less than yours. How do we know what that number really is? And a “sustainable world?” Do you honestly think that humans are capable of destroying this planet? I know we’ve been trying to for a long time and we haven’t done it yet. 3- the human overpopulation of earth? see the first part of 2 above. 4- outrageous per-capita overconsumption. Well, you’re partly right on that one. We Americans certainly do eat too much food (most of us-my apologies to the few skinny people out there) And we suck up lots of electricity playing video games. And we throw way too many plastic pop bottles out the windows of our SUVs. But if you are talking about global per-capita consumption then you have two problems: determining the amount of per-capita consumption, in which case we run right back into the problem of 2 above,and redistribution which means lots of people or lots of resources have to be moved from where they are now. 5-your comments about corporations missed the mark. The problem isn’t “overproduction” and “unnecessary” stuff. Again, that goes back to #2.
      Who gets to define the terms? The problems with corporations is the greed of the people running them. Which leads them to manipulate, lie and abuse on a grand scale. 6-as far as the 3 strands you mentioned, I think all of the above comments covers them pretty well. 7-As for the need for people of integrity in government and the need for self-government by a thinking, responsible electorate- you’re absolutely right. And ridding ourselves of the greed-induced tyranny of those would-be masters of the universe- absolutely right again. In conclusion: Individually and collectively we do have an obligation to do all we can to alleviate suffering, but we’ll never eradicate if from the earth. That would require a major change in human nature itself and it’ll never happen. So, yes, we keep addressing the problems as best we can, but we recognize that we won’t ever “solve” it ultimately. As for the earth and the pollution/population questions; I’d say we really don’t even have a clue as to what the planets limits are in those areas.  Probably we haven’t even hit the 5% capacity mark on either of those. I know that sounds ridiculous but if we’ll look beyond the credintials of the so-called experts making claims today I think we’d see that their estimates are no more accurate than the wild guesses of some old Okie truck driver! Feel free to respond and if I’m wrong about everything, well, it won’t be the first time. As a Christian I also have to say that these are not human-solvable problems. But there is One who can and will someday solve them.

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    29. Comments…..

      This is how out of touch the public is..I called chinamart to check canning jar prices…she said she’d match the big lots price..saved me a drive and gas..

      She said, I don’t know why we still have jars from last year…I let her in on the fact that, 1) folks don’t have jobs, and 2) the produce was beyond our reach …it was cheaper last year to buy most veggies in the can on the shelf.
      Farmers are hurting too.  It’ll get worse.

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    30. Comments…..

      There are also a big number of people who cannot organize a plan because simply their money are only enough for day-to-day survival.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Manos, yes, you make a point…but, hold on there…sadly, how many of those families smoke, have the latest games for their kids, spent ridicuolus money for Christmas, drink, or have cable…we don’t. 
      How many have plastic over their windows, have unused rooms closed off, have sheets covering openings with no doors to save money on heat??
      I do!!
      Every church member I tell what is coming and store food, water, gas, lalughs at me!!

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    31. Comments…..
      SmokinOdie—have you heard??  They stopped making land.
      God gives us free will; common sense is questionable.
      For EVERY child born, an acre of arable (crop production) land is spent and for ‘space’ whether road, buildings, etc..it doesn’t matter.
      We must stop producing children; we can’t grow the world’s supply of food in greenhouses…only land will do it…but as population expands, so do cities, and there goes an acre for each new human.
      God gives us a brain, let’s start using it.

      And whether I’ll share my stored supplies and food I’ve sacrificed for two years to acquire??? That’s still a problem I’ve not answered for myself yet.  Am I to selectively share?? Give it all away?? Choose just those with children??

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    32. Dear SmokinOkie and JJ,

      Now if we just get the self-proclaimed masters of the universe among us, who will do anything (even patently unsustainable things) to provide themselves with outrageous bonuses and their “too big too fail” corporations with a trillion dollars in bailout funds, to focus attention on ‘bailing out’ a good enough future for the children before the planet all of us are blessed to inhabit is rendered unfit for human habitation and life as we know it.

      Sincerely,

      Steve

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    33. manos says:

      JJ,

      I get your points; you’re right. Many families in Greece survive under the pauverty limit, but still they can afford to pay for cable tv, or even buy expensive cell phones to their kids. These people are categorized in the idiot area.
      My dad used to work for the BMW Crete branch. The last 3 years, while the artificial crisis was developing, many high schooll graduates went with their dads to buy one BMW (usually the 116 model). After 3 or 4 months they stoped paying the monthly lease, and of course the company took the cars back.
      What the hell these fathers were thinking? How stupid can someone be, to go and buy a BMW for his precious boy.
      Just beat the hell out of his stupid existence, and send him to some military school. Or find some contractor and let your precious to work in the construction business.
      But there are always the expeptions.

      Be safe JJ

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    34. SmokinOkie says:

      JJ-Thanks for your reply. In looking back at my comment to Salmony, perhaps I did appear to be haphazard, maybe even reckless, in my response to him. I certainly didn’t mean to look like I have a “let the good times roll, it’ll never end” mentality.  And just because I believe we don’t know the ultimate carrying capacity of our planet doesn’t mean I think we should push past that limit and then say “oops, we should have stopped just a bit sooner.” My whole point was to say that- yes as individuals we have responsibilities toward one another. I would add (and I should have put it in the first comment) that those responsibilities include: don’t procreate beyond your ability to provide for your offspring, don’t create more garbage than you can properly dispose of and don’t dump said garbage on your neighbors and expect them to clean it up. I really am in favor of being good stewards of all that God has given us. And just because we CAN tear up, use up, or pollute doesn’t mean that we should. It’s just that when we begin to try to solve these problems on a global scale we have stepped into an area that we as humans are totally incapable of handling. No man made system has ever fixed these things and I don’t think it ever will. Many of the current proposals to address these things would lead to tyranny on a global scale and they still wouldn’t work. In defense of Salmony I must add that he did NOT advocate any type of Global controls and I hope I didn’t appear to mischaracterize his words. And as far as sharing my resources with the unprepared after shtf- I’m wrestling with those same questions you are. I don’t know the answer to that one either. By the way, I’m not trying to make excuses for myself but…beginning just a few days ago- this is only the second blog I’ve posted on…ever. A year and a half ago when I got this laptop I hadn’t owned a computer for TEN yrs. Sorry, but you’re dealing with an okie with a gallon of attitude and a teaspoonful of technical skills. Also, my attitude component is like a 400hp Ferrari and my common sense…well let’s just say it’s more like a rusty briggs&stratton. Lord help us all!

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    35. Joerocker says:

      Lots of good info!
      I understand “The Freeze Dry Guy” has #10 cans of freeze dry food.
      also, I have started sprouting wheat etc…
      could be a good source of veggies and you can do it inside all year very easy. check out http://sproutpeople.org/

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    36. GoneWithTheWind says:

      11 Bravo:  Buy a breadmaker.  You don’t have to buy a new one, Goodwill has them cheap and a garage sale will usually have one for about $10.  Put in 2 tbs sugar, 1 tbs dry yeast (or one packet dry yeast) and 1 cup hot tap water (no hotter then 110).  Make sure the sugar and yeast are mixed well with the water.  Let it sit for 10-15 minutes it should foam up nicely.  Then add 3 cups flour, 1 tsp salt and 1/8 cup oil (or butter or Crisco) and start the machine.  A few hours later you will have decent bread.  

      I know!  One day we won’t have electricity to run the bread machine.  OK, after you have used a bread machine you will understand the bread must be mixed and kneaded for awhile then allowed to rise and then punched down and kneaded again.  After that you let it rise an hour or two and cook it.  Bread can be cooked over a campfire or in a dutch oven or fryed like pancakes.  You can cut it up into a couple dozen little balls of dough and cook them like bisquits.  Once you have made bread the knowledge is yours forever.

      As for the wheat you can grind it into flour.  You can even use the flat rock and grinding stone method that you sometimes see in the movies.  It will be a little coarser and a little less refined then you are used to but it still works.  
       

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    37. GoneWithTheWind says:

      OOPS!  That should be 1 teaspoon dry yeast.

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    38. 11 Bravo says:

      GWTW….Great idea…We have a new Goodwill store 15 mins away……
      Now I know some things I need to add to my 3 ring binder of “Sh*t I never had time to learn but I have it in writing”….and now that just reminded me that I have “Country Living” by Emery on the bookshelf…..the answers will be there

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    39. overtheedge says:

      I only presented the Krusteaz as a “just add water” bread in keeping with the dehydrated thingy.

      Bread is easy to make. For larger quantities, I have a hand-cranked dough hook bought from Cumberland General Store. I love to bake bread during cold rainy weather when the additional heat is welcome and the smell of fresh-baked bread turns a normally gloomy day into happy. The closer you get to scratch-made and buying in bulk, the cheaper the portion price.

      Cautionary note. Grinding grain with rocks introduces stone grit into the flour. This results in increased tooth wear. There are several ways to remove the grit. I leave you to research it yourselves or better still, buy a burr mill.
       
      As soon as I can afford it, I’ll be getting a Vittorio strainer for tomato sauce. Yep, I’ll dehydrate it too.
       
      Most vegetables can be easily dried. Green beans on a string, shelled peas, jullienned carrots, you name it. Meat dries well if you remove all the fat. Render the fat and can it. While it’s available, buy fiberglass window screen. Add a  couple of poles and you have a dehydrator. Use the sun or inside heat.

      Always remember that grain (bread) was called “the staff of life.”

      And coming full circle, most kids are happy with  PB&J.  If they rebel against greens, dry the greens, powder them and add to PB. Dried powdered greens can be added to almost anything.

      The greens? Spinach, mustards, turnips and beets are good choices. Head lettuce is low nutritionally.

      An easy way to grow, harvest and dry greens is by planting in a large block, say 20X20. Use hedge clippers to harvest, wash and spread on a large tarp. Turn drying greens several times a day and keep dry. When greens start to crumble in turning, powder it and its ready to store.  If you don’t cut the plants low, most will grow back for another harvest.

      Get you family started on stews. You can hide almost anything in stew except rutabagas. Pumpkin is just winter squash. So you can make pies from winter squash and if you use pumpkin pie spice, nobody will know you cheated.

      Nobody mentioned pemmican. I’ve had good and not-so-good. I still live. High value nutrition source in a small package aka nutritional density.
      —————————–
      I will counter an argument put forth here. I am not responsible for anything I lack complete control over. Therefore I am NOT responsible for anyone else’s damn fool decisions, children or their lack of planning and preparations. We all die. God is quite capable of sorting it out.  In many cultures, if you save a life, you are responsible for the rest of their life.
      ———————–
      SmokinOkie. Good point that needs daily reinforcement. Practice OpSec (operational security) always. No exceptions. What they learn about you and yours can get you killed.

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    40. Twindrives 42' says:

      Off subject but have you heard about the U.S. government murdering one it’s own CIA black ops. people?   Guess the citizens won’t fare any better when Obama declares all out war on the general population of the U.S.   See video series below.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_6dOsAZfZI

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    41. Serenity Now says:

      Great comments!

      11Bravo,
      Definitely stock up on beans.  Rice and beans make a complete protein and can be eaten so many different ways.  Cheap, too.  My Costco has 10-lb. bags of pinto beans for about $6.  I’m also storing (Mylar bags) red beans, black beans, lima beans, lentils, and black-eye peas.

      I also bought a lot of just-add-water pancake mix.  Who wants to eat rice and beans all day?  For flour, I’m storing bread flour.  I also have wheat to grind (+ a manual grinder).  I need to add cornmeal to my list to make cornbread.

      By the way everyone, Costco has some long-term storage foods in #10 cans online.

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    42. Jonny V says:

      Krusteaz is local where I live, and good stuff too!  Keeps well and on sale often, I like it a lot better than Bisquick or Jemima.  You can find a lot of good kitchen stuff at the Goodwill, Value Villiage, St Vincent dePaul, all those thrift stores.  Sometimes they have canning supplies for sale too, you just gotta watch.  Ross stores have dehydrated soups (nice looking ones) I saw today for 2.99 each (buck to buck fifty less than the grocery store).  You can also look into Cash and Carry (restaurant supply) grocery stores to find good deals on meat and dry goods, sometimes even less than Costco.

      Being prepped is easier when you really shop all the stores in your area and learn which ones have the best deals on given items.  The other really good thing about thrift stores is that they usually have lots of books and you can find field guides, cookbooks, and medical references for 1-2 bucks each.  You need a hard-copy library for SHTF.

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    43. frankie says:

      JJ     about  telling  your church members about prepping,   welcome to my world,   i litterally was  ushered out of my church,    scoffed at by   members,   and guess what,  perry stone of  manna fest, just came out of the closet and declared  he is preparing for a melt down and is growing a garden and canning,   my wife scoffed at me as i have been collecting 55 gal barrels and selling them for 20 bucks a pop,   i get them free.  i have 6 barrels filled with gas  in the country home.  i have   8 barrels full and vaccuum  packed with dry ice, and   guess what,  my wife saw perry stones  article and printed it and gave it to me, and i said,  honey  i have been prepping for  7 yrs,  and now u will believe  perry stone  after mocking  me as a gloom and doomer.   sup with that.   when i say seven yrs, i mean i started building the country home from dumpster scraps, and free  insulation and and  guns ammo,   and  stuff  besides food.

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    44. frankie says:

      ……also  everyone,  dont forget rocket mass cook stoves,    bio-sand water filter,  make ur own charcoal,  buy organic open pollinated corn,  for grits, corn meal,  and corn flower,  ie   get a grist mill.    if u need 55 gal barrels  go behind  food processing co.    and i get 5 gal  pickle buckets from panera bread as they throw them away.  they are food grade.  i have   9    free   275   gal   tanks elevated and connected to my gutters, ‘ paint them black’  for flushing toilets,  washing clothes,   look up make ur own soap on google,   the germans after ww2  put a 1/4  inch copper tube under the toilet seat and angled it up for  a  ” tush wash”  save on  toilet paper. ur water storage  for more pressure.  look into  square ft gardening, and i just found out how to  grow potatoes in a 33″x33″   2×6  square, and as the pland grows,  add  more wood, and didrt up the potatoe stem  and keep goin, u can grow 50 lbs vertically…buy heirloom seeds,  and 10-10-10  fertilizer,  if u can  compost leaves, cow poop or chicken poop, it is better.  soil here in tenn. is  rocky and clay. remember the scripture  “if u dont work, u dont eat”  so when people come for help, put them in your garden,  choppin wood,  gathering berries,  fishing,   scouting,  scavenging,  guarding,    many creative ways, just dont  shoot everyone,  except the fat  ones,  they eat tooo much.   :) lol

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    45. PortlandPrepper says:

      If you still need food storage get a discount account at http://www.ShelfRelianceSanAntonio.com. The food is great and arrives at your door in just a few days. I just got huge order myself.  Now I got to find a way to hide all this stuff!

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    46. midwestgal says:

      Great ideas with bread.
      I’ll add my 5cents 
      If you buy wheat  instead of flour and keep it in a airtight container with a bit of salt on the bottom-it will last forever and bugs won’t touch it. Then it can be grinded on a stone or in a grain mill (very unexpensive on ebay or any other used items sale, and it is manual) I make hot cereals with it, or grind it longer to make fine flour.

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    47. Fed Up In Texas says:

      Cindyy – I will pray for you as well.

      Everyone – I am friends with a manager of a local grocery chain.  He has pointed out to me that milk has climbed significantly in the past weeks but all grocers are trying to hold down the price by trimming margins because milk is such a driver of grocery sales.  But that train is coming to an end.  They are  all now at a point they can’t any more.  He also said its not just milk that has to go up due to margins being as slim as possible.  His words to me were, “A lot of folks are in for a bg shock.”  Go figure.

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    48. VGT says:

      Great website Godsend. Homeland Security, the Southern Poverty Law Center and the FBI will be most interested in reading about your threats.

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    49. midwestgal says:

      Milk is up 50 cents within 2 days, it is true.

      Another great things to buy-flour tortilla mix-very unexpensive in WM and Aldi, has all ingridients, you only add water and takes about a minute per each to cook, great bread alternative.

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    50. Given the general mind-set, the one driven in our time by economic globalization and the global political economy, it is difficult to believe how change to whatsoever is sustainable could occur. The mantra of endless growth of unsustainable lifestyles and too-big-too-succeed/too-big-to succeed corporations appears pervasive and unassailable.
      Gigantic, multinational conglomerates are adamantly engaged in the production of goods (both needed and unnecessary), business and finance, the marvelous edifices housing the great religions, large-scale agriculture, the military complexes. These entities are the actual constructions that drive the process of economic globalization and give the global political economy its leviathan-like structure.
      What you are reporting appears correct. It seems to me that two things could happen. First, an internet-driven transformation of global human consciousness will somehow occur in order to bring about necessary changes in the self-serving, destructive behavior of the fossil fools among us. Second, something embodied in this shift in human consciousness will give rise to completely unexpected, somehow interlocking events like the one which occurred at the city of Jericho in ancient times when “the walls fell down”. Even the leviathans of human enterprise in our days could crumble.
      Recently we witnessed the near collapse of some of the giants of the automobile industry and the virtual implosion of investment houses and big banks on Wall Street. Are the titans of big business and finance not only “too-big-to-fail” but also “too-big-to-succeed” precisely because they are soon to become patently unsustainable on a planet with size, composition and ecology of Earth?
      We have also seen in the past several years the poisonous fruits to be derived from extolling as ‘virtues’ outrageous greed, obscene overconsumption and relentless hoarding of wealth by many too many leaders. Never in the course of human events have so few stolen so much from so many….with a sense of pride. That these people reward each other with medals and awards for their pernicious activities is shameful. I believe we can agree that the unbridled overgrowth activities of the masters of the universe now overspreading the surface of Earth can much longer stand neither the test of time nor the biophysical limitations of the planetary home we are to inhabit and not ruin, I suppose. Following self-proclaimed masters of the universe down a primrose path could be the wrong way to direct the children to go.
      The children deserve the chance of facing the prospect of a future that is good enough. I am no longer thinking of leaving the children a better world than the one that was given to their elders. That appears out of reach now. It remains my hope that the elder generation, with responsibilities to assume and duties to perform, will do better than we doing now by changing our ways for the sake of keeping Earth fit for habitation by children everywhere. As examples, we could pay our debts instead of mortgage the children’s future; we could clean up the ecological messes that have been made in the course of the past 65 years; we could eschew “bigger is better” and “the biggest is the best” in favor of “small is beautiful”, doing more with less, and embracing the spirit of living well by living more simply and sustainably.
      Perhaps changes toward sustainable lifestyles and right-sized enterprises are in the offing.
      And perhaps we have been travelling down a long road over hundreds upon hundreds of years, a road of growing production and distribution capabilities, of wanton overconsumption and reckless hoarding, and of unbridled overpopulation. These activities have been occurring for a long time on a small scale, but only recently exploded in seemingly uncontrollable ways, within the natural world we inhabit and without sufficient regard being given either to human limits or Earth’s limitations. An improbable combination of narcissism, arrogance, foolhardiness and greed blinded leadership to the practical requirements of living on Earth; to the “rules of the house” in our planetary home. Too many leaders decided to willfully behave like kids who were left alone and given the run of the house by their overseers. All the rules were ‘forgotten’ or simply ignored. Laissez faire, whatever will be will be, living without limits and all that ruled!
      The children tore everything up and made a big mess. When they realized what they were doing, they felt stuck as if between a rock and hard place. Do they stop their destructive activities or else choose to keep tearing up the house? This is a tough choice for kids at play. Who knows, perhaps they will not be caught red-handed at what they have been doing. And if they are caught, they could always blame the wreckage on other bad boys. How many times have we seen kids at play and men at work blaming their wrongdoing on others and not ever taking responsibility for their own dishonest, deceitful or destructive behavior?
      Either the choice to turn back and begin the clean-up or the choice to keep tearing things up is fraught with danger. From a kid’s (or fossil fool’s) perspective they could face more danger by trying to clean up the mess they made than they would be exposed to by continuing with their rampage. Either choice presents its own challenges and threats. After all, so much damage has already been done. There is no longer any easy way forward, that is for sure, even under the best circumstances.
      What to do here? Now what? These are the questions, I suppose.

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    51. overtheedge says:

      “What to do here? Now what? These are the questions, I suppose.”

      First of all, your eco-centric maunderings demonstrate that philosophy is your strong suit. Let’s see how well philosophy works as a survival skill.

      Homo Sapien is an animal. Driven by instinct honed through survival and passed to our off-spring. Occaisionally intelligent reasoning  shows up, but usually just more nonsense.

      You are using a computer. You are an active participant in exactly what you have openly despised. Clean your own house before you preach to me.

      Now to answer your questions?
      Get ready for what may become the “great culling.” You are responsible for your own survival. Don’t look to me. Unless you can demonstrate worthiness to my economic circumstances, you are a competitor for what will become scarce resources. In natural systems, you will be driven out or destroyed. Our system is manufactured. Everyone posting here has proven that they took advantage of this manufactured environment. Man can’t do a good job of planning and prepping for tomorrow. What would lead a reasoning human to think that man could make effective plans for 10, 20, 100 years out? Nature changes the environment daily. Adapt or die. In almost 60 years, I haven’t seen any manufactured item that hasn’t failed.

      Now what? Get ready. I’m reminded of something from the Baghavad Gita, “I am death, shatterer of worlds, annihilater of all things. With or without you, good men will die today.” Bet on it. Do you expect me to stay on a sinking boat and help bail?

      No! These are not the questions. You supposed wrong. Homo Sapien is an omnivorous opportunist, driven by instinct and animal in nature. Nature will always out itself. Example: Marry someone and within days or weeks, their mask falls away exposing their true nature. The true “Human” rather than homo sapien, well I’ll know it when I see it.

      Sir, your rambling diatribe has demonstrated to me that you are probably another hand-wringing philosopher filled with hope for a “can’t-we-all-just-get-along” socialist agenda. Animals compete, plain and simple. Animals accept what is. Animals adapt or die. “Humans” embrace their animal nature and temper it with reasoning aquired through the use of critical thinking skills.

      Homo sapien (man, wise) what a joke! Wisdom is best displayed by acceptance of reality and adaptation, not preached philosophy.

      Don’t fret though. All the data supports a high probability of a  system-wide  reboot with a return to the old operating system.

      BTW Do you know how to tell evidence from propoganda? Look for flowery speach using lots of adjectives and adverbs. Evidence stands by itself. Propoganda demands painting pictures to evoke an emotional response. Evidence demands direct connections. Propoganda uses correlation and inferrence. Evidence provides little room for differences in interpretation. Lastly, evidence doesn’t care if you believe. It stands by itself. It doesn’t need my help or yours to support it. It just is.

      Admittedly, having access to the evidence still doesn’t make predictability much easier. Too many variables. We can approach a possible event probability through statistical analysis, but we would need a larger sampled base.

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    52. overtheedge says:

      Forgot to add:
      Competition is reduced through commerce. Animals compete, humans trade. Animals live for today, humans live for today, tomorrow and years down the road. Animals resist change, humans accept change. Animals lack adaptability, humans see adaptation as profitable. Animals follow the herd, humans interact with the herd only when required. Animals follow the herd philosophy, humans debate it for entertainment after the day’s chores and tomorrow’s plans are finalized.

      But please, feel free to argue your point, or call it debate if you wish. Opinions are argued, evidence is debated. Remember, evidence stands on its own.     …    No batteries needed.

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    53. mushroom says:

      i always look for cause.  fix an effect and it returns  -  sometimes in spades.

      so what’s the cause for this “economic problem” that you all are yapppping about?

      some of you are the cause. you voted these politicians into office where they did what they were paid to do.

      so stop whining and take your medicine…..

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    54. “overtheedge”…at least you got that right.

      Competition is for the competent.

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    55. Jack C says:

      I am in the food business.  Food ingredients are going up, which means food is going up.  I had a buyer who said he gets one increase per day.  Nobody is talking about buying seeds on this site.  If you have  a back yard; buy some veggie seeds and plant them.  They are incredibly cheap and if you don’t buy hybrids you can use the seeds from the fruit to plant the next year.  I have bought a very small amount of tomato products over the last few years.  Last year I canned peppers, next year it will be peppers, beans and asparagus.  Buy flour and put in sealed packages. 

      We in fact are responsible for the upcoming disaster; nobody else.  We have been electing people based on ‘what they do for us’; not a good idea.  Very few politicians have no motive, even the do-gooders. Beans and rice are a better bet than the dehydrated foods.

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    56. Comments…..
      I went to get green peppers at chinamart to dice and freeze foruse..they were $1.44 and red/gold peppers were 2.68…I got seeds and as bad as my soil is in Ky, I will plant in containers and pray before I pay that price.

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    57. Comments…..

      Serenity Now
      February 19th, 2011 at 9:32 pm
      I’m with you on the pancake storing–in buckets…32 oz for $1 at savalot stores here..

      I make my own syrup with kayo corn syrup, water, sugar, and mapeline!!! and can it in pint jars.!!

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    58. frankieu says:

      steven earl salemony;   i  disagree  a little  in that  our kids,  ‘i have 8′  are spoiled, with   gadgets,   easy living,  wont work or lift a finger, unless ur are omish or  equivelent.  i am presb.   and we raised our kids to work,  chores,  and more.   it will be great for them to experience  the pressures  of  a great depression, best thing for them.  we put them in boy scouts, i have 2 eagles,   to give them  wilderness esperience.   i am just elated  the usa will go through a financial melt down,  economic collaps, and people will be forced to live  like the 20′s   I HOPE  !!!!    i want to see  the fat  assed    slobs bent over in the gardens pulling weeds,  and forced to walk.   our country desp. needs this depression,  we may learn to sit on the front porch  again like andy grifith.    u know help our neighbors.  i am 60  and have watched the deterioration  in usa,  for yrs.  people will pray again.

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    59. Anonymous says:

      11bravo.

      You should add beans for sure.  Pinto, Black or Northern beans – whatever you like the most.  Or buckets of all 3.

      I’d add some wheat.  If you add wheat though you must have a good hand crank grinder.  Ours can be hooked to our kitchenaid blender or hand cranked. 

      You can store flour, it only lasts a year or 2 though.  And put it in something to keep bugs & critters out of it.

      We also have dried corn in our buckets – for corn meal.  You need a good bit of sugar too.  You can store oats. 

      If you don’t know how to cook with these ingredients you need to get yourself a good cookbook and practice.  You need to do it when you can afford to make mistakes.  If the shtf you won’t want to be fumbling around trying to learn to cook – you’ll be more worried about work, gardening, hunting & defense.

      If you live in or near a decent sized city.  I recommend you visit a local LDS Cannery.  They have rice, beans, flour, dehydrated carrots, onions, apples, flake potatoes, cocoa mix, dried milk, etc.  You can really stock up very easily.  You can buy stuff already canned, you can can it youself at their facilities, or you can buy 25 pound bags. 

      Here’s a link to their order form.  http://www.providentliving.org/content/display/0,11666,8133-1-4352-1,00.html

      You do not have to be Mormon to go but they have told me that if they get too busy then they will be forced to limit it to Mormon Church members only. 

      Good Luck!

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    60. yourdaddy says:

      JJ- Regrettably, you’ve bought into the lie of “overpopulation” as being the cause of our current situation.  But even more regrettable is you have chosen to propagate this lie to others.  So as not to mis-quote you:

      “SmokinOdie-have you heard??  They stopped making land.  God gives us free will; common sense is questionable.  For EVERY child born, an acre of arable (Crop & Production) land is spent for ‘space’ whether road, buildings, etc…it doesn’t matter.  We must stop producing children; we can’t grow the world’s supply of food in greenhouses…only land will do it…but as population expands, so do cities, and there goes an acre for each new human.
      God gave us a brain, let’s start using it.”

      God also gave us this mandate: “Go fruitful and multiply.  FILL the Earth and subdue it” (Genesis 1:28)
      God then repeated this mandate to Noah’s family shortly after the Great Flood: “Be Fruitful and increase in number and FILL the Earth:”

      He didn’t attach a caveat to this command, “…but be prepared to stop multiplying the moment it appears you’re running out of room for each other…I mean, I am God, but how could I ever anticipate you rabbits pro-creating past the sustainability level I built into Earth.”

      I find it terribly ironic that you twice relied on God when attempting to develop your argument (“He gave us a brain.  He gave us free will”) but omitted his specific instructions to us regarding the population of the Earth…FILL IT!

      I always find it paradoxical how so many folks can be for agendas such as yours JJ… (i.e. Birth Control, Abortion, Euthanasia, “Stop the overpopulation” and other God-less nonsense) when if given the opportunity to defend and support this position to your parents a few decades ago, you would become deafly silent.

      The “overpopulation” crowd maintains their enthusiasm so long as that policy occurs “over-there somewhere.”  Thankfully, (for them) their parents didn’t live “over-there.”

      We live in a world that calls Truth a lie & spreads lies as the Truth.  God’s Word is unequivocal on this issue, and he is the Truth.  You can follow him….or you can follow guys like JJ.  It’s your choice…Heck, even JJ got that part right…God gave us Free will.

      In Truth.
      -Dad

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    61. Johnny says:

      My wife and I decided to take our entire tax return this year and spend it on food provisions. We will get a years supply of freeze dried food and hide it in our basement. Found a great deal at http://www.shelfreliancesanantonio.com . Usually we would spend the tax return on furniture or vacation… not this year.  Times have changed!

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    62. physicist jim mccanney is still offering mountain house and i checked with him to make sure his supplies are still intact.

      http://www.jmccanneyscience.com/SecWebOrderPg.htm

      also check his short wave broadcast and mp3 download for an independant physicist’s take on science and current events.
      db

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    63. Jonny V says:

      JJ, For what it’s worth, I’m with you on the overpopulation thing.  The Earth is clearly overpopulated and while many religious principles are fine to adhere to (I’m not religious in the least), mindless and endless breeding is not OK.  The only thing that will lead to is the depletion of all our resources and the wars which will accompany that depletion.

      Dad, sorry not to side with you on this, I usually agree with your posts and look forward to reading them.  I do respect you tremendously for helping that new guy out too.

      Thinking about Mountain House foods, the reality is that the stuff isn’t all that good for taste or nutrition.  The fact that they are running out simply means that there are a bunch of people who are too lazy to do their own canning, gardening, or even shopping.  There are plenty of freeze dried food options that are both better and cheaper than MH.  Being resourceful will go a long way towards making your preps much more robust and complete.

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    64. Comments…..
      your daddy—you are the one propagating the lie..God bless the children…for it is they who will suffer.

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    65. Comments…..
      mushroom
      February 20th, 2011 at 3:29 pm
      And Mushroom, most are getting tired of this rant topic…
      if we lend you our car, and, while irresponsibly speeding, you wreck our car killing your passenger, are we charged with murder??
      I think not.
      These politicians are driving our cars…..

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    66. Comments…..
       when if given the opportunity to defend and support this position to your parents a few decades ago, you would become deafly silent.

      !!!!!
      I do find insult when people try comparing apples and oranges!!

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    67. yourdaddy says:

      No apology required Jonny V.  And I appreciate your honesty & candor in your position(s).  And remember, you are not, “not siding with me,” as I’m simply the messenger in this case.  

      Not to split atoms here, but in the same sentence that you claim no religious principles you also state that “mindless & endless breeding is not OK.”  In other words, if sex should take place solely within the bounds of a sacramental marriage we’d be living in accordance with God’s will?  Sounds pretty “religious” to me.  ..Ok, I won’t push it.  Just having a little fun with you.  :)

      Regarding MH…I’m not a spokesman for their product. I did recently cracked open a can of their scrambled eggs with bacon bits to give it a test run.  Not too bad.  A little salty.  But in my current state (full frig, pretty full belly, A/C  running, drinks aplenty etc etc) if I had no problem finishing off the plate in these conditions, I figure I’ll have NO problem doing so when it might be all that’s in front of me.  Just saying…

      I guess the hard part with a forum like this is that there are so many people coming from so many backgrounds that it is truly impossible to provide a “one-size fits all” SHTFplan.  For urban folks, telling them about MH or anything freeze-dried borders on the sacreligious (woops, there’s that pesky religion rearing its ugly head again).  But for suburbanites (like me), I’ll gladly take a closet full of MH covering my family of 6 for at least a year and then start building/learning from there.  I’ve spent 100′s of hours on the web self-educating myself on how to be a farmer.  I’ve got some land to run to, but without knowledge of how to “partner” with it, it is nothing more then an open pasture.  

      Anyway, like I suggested to BJ & his wife Shellie (that new guy you referred to) food preps should be categorized into 3 slots.
      1) Immediate need
      2) Medium term
      3) Long-term

      MH falls into that 2nd category, but could also satisfy the 1st category if you have the ability to create fire,  boil water & the needed utensils (don’t laugh…there are probably some folks on here that haven’t thought it through that far yet).  

      Anyway, I’ve said if before and I will repeat again…I fully appreciate mature, respectful disent and conjecture.  If you don’t agree with me or something I post, feel free to do so.  And by doing so in the manner you did, everyone benefits from the exchange without the useless interjection of emotion.

      Your not religious…I am.  Here’s to hoping you eventually see it my way.  :)

      Peace my man.
      -Dad

        

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    68. Comments…..
      JJ is a woman..a christian woman.

      I’m not debating this issue…it’s my conviction; not asking or trying to influence any here.  The facts speak for themselves..as those African children starve TO DEATH, is that comforting to you?? 

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    69. Jonny V says:

      I agree that having some #10 cans around is a good idea.  I was looking into adding MH to my preps and started looking at all the different options being offered (years worth of the stuff for thousands of dollars) and decided that although having some was OK, I didn’t need hundreds of pounds of the stuff.

      There are many good (admittedly vegetarian) freeze dried soups right in your local grocery store.  I re-package these with their labels with a vacuum sealer and add to the stockpile.  Rice (several varieties, not the enriched crap), beans, sea salt, corn meal, flour, pasta, etc, etc, etc.  I’m rebuilding my basement (walkout) and using space in the most earth-sheltered part for a big storage pantry as the temp always stays the same down there (about 64-65°).  Rotating the food is key to #1 and #2 stages of food prep.  For #3, you have to learn gardening.

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    70. overtheedge says:

      ” Beans and rice are a better bet than the dehydrated foods.”

      I think the term you wanted to use is freeze-dried (FD). Beans and rice are dehydrated. FD foods are far more costly per serving and are quite sensitive to hydration time. Wait too long and they get mushy. I haven’t been bothered by the mushiness, but I’ve eaten some wierd stuff over the decades.
      ————————————–
      Those of you in the over-population camp are wrong. You claim the planet’s carrying capacity has been exceeded. Not true. Simple math proves that.

      Now if you had declared that certain regions had more people than the region’s carrying capacity could handle, you would be correct.
      If you had claimed that the food distribution network fails to insure adequate delivery to the hungry, you would be correct.
      If you had stated that the hungry lack the financial resources to purchase food supplies and pay for the delivery, you would be correct.

      The carrying capacity for humans on starship Earth has not been exceeded. With a bit more effort towards using arable land more wisely and conservative methods of irrigation, Earth could handle almost 10 billion. By reducing meat intakes to about 4 oz/day, we might be able to hit 11-12 billion. This is completely dependent on the food distribution system.

      Almost every major city has grossly exceeded the carrying capacity of the region. Except for a few, you can draw a 50 mile radius circle around the city and the production of food within that circle ain’t near enough. For far too many major cities, you could make the radiul 100 miles and it still won’t feed the people.

      These folks get fed because they have the financial resources to pay for the imports. But any glitch in the food distribution system and … think blizzard or hurricane.
      ————————————–
      Supply/Demand
      Supply means just that. What’cha got on hand for sale right now. Futures/options/etc are projected future demand. Many  goods can be bought, stored and later then sold at a profit.

      Demand is ready, willing and able customers. Demand is not and never was, want, need or desire. Never confuse individual with market-place. Supply and demand curve s are market terms. If the individual enters the market as a buyer, they then become part of the market. When they sit at home starving they are not part of the market. Enter NGO bearing food. NGO entered market, starving child being fed by NGO did not.

      Hard reality. Humans survived countless millennia by generating profits. Profits are surplus, plain and simple. These carried the group through leaner times. Commerce provided the mechanism for moving surplus commodities to regions experiencing shortages. 

      So get this through your head. Profits are good for survival. Profits are a natural and mandatory pursuit. You fail to generate profits and you recklessly expose yourself to shortages. Enough shortages in too short  of a period of time, you die.

      Now the ugly: Your current living conditions are the direct result of every decision you have made. That the scenario has changed is irrelevant. Failure to make a timely decision IS A DECISION. You refused to adapt to the changing environment.

      I don’t care about the stupid thought process used to get to this point beyond understanding that it was based upon  failure to pay attention to detail and make any needed corrections.
       
      Just how much profit did you generate for your family with your last six month’s purchases, labor expenditures or conservation efforts? Why so little? Is it possible that your priorities might need rearranging? The nature of nature is change. Either we accept nature or we are the interlopers. There is only one thing to do with interlopers.

      Please understand, I don’t care. I accept reality. I understand that a natural system works, might be ugly, but it works.

      There is nothing natural with our current system. Failing to voluntarily return to a natural system means we will be forced sooner or later. Careful reading of Article I section 8 US Constitution  and the “Commerce Clause” within it reveals that the intent was to maintain a domestic open-market place and defend property rights. Nowhere does it authorize or encourage the gov’t to enter the markets. It mandates that Congress establish the value of the currency.

      A natural system demands an open market (no, not free-market) which means NO GOV’T INTERVENTION. Let the chips fall where they may. WE can’t avoid natural systems too long or nature will catch us with our pants down. To bad it won’t be limitted to just a good spanking. You can’t legislate away nature.

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    71. yourdaddy says:

      Overtheedge:
      Nailed it in your above post!  (@1:32pm)  Well written IMO.

      JJ:
      Had no way to no you were a woman, my apologies for referring to you as male.  But more tragically, is I had no way of knowing you were a christian either…

      To suggest that overpopulation is the root cause of our problems will NEVER jive with Chrisitan principles.  Period.  Shame on you for suggesting they can co-exist.  

      As for the liberal (rhetorical question) as to whether or not I’m troubled by suffering children in Africa who are starving to death…No more and no less then ANY child who suffers on ANY continent.

      The real question that must be asked of you is, “If you’ve deemed over-population as the core problem we face, how do you suggest we apply the corrective action to such problem?”  
      Do we Euthanize?
      Do we follow China’s lead and limit the number of children allowed?
      Do we cut-off all those who are unable to financially provide?

      These above questions are not meant to be rhetorical in nature.  I am simply flummoxed that a “christian” woman would dig in on such a non-christian tenet, and then out of anger, lash back when called on it.  

      Your response to my accusation that you are “propagating a lie”  was analagous to the schoolyard retort, “I know you are but what am I?”  I offered you direct Scripture from Genesis quoting God the Father regarding his mandate to all of mankind to, “Go forth and multiply, and FILL the Earth.”  I’d be happy to learn where it is I’ve mis-stepped in my belief system, but please understand that will require a more mature response.

      My apololgies also for you “taking insult” regarding my analogy.  However, I’ve never met a staunch “over-populationist” that believes they themselves are part of the overpopulation problem.  I won’t use the H-word (hypocritical) because that is too strong, but it does seem convenient that EVERYONE clamoring that there are too many people in the world, do so as they point to Africa or some other location far, far away from their own backyard.  

      Peace,
      -Dad 

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    72. Jonny V says:

      OTE’s info regarding the carrying capacity of given areas of land is correct IMO.  Exacerbating the problem (causing the problem is more like it) is that food is produced for corporate profit, not for feeding people.  Therefore, food goes to those who can afford it.

      When a large enough group is kept without for long enough (as in Africa), you end up with widespread famine, starvation, disease and death.  If the “have nots” are allowed access to weapons of any sort, then armed uprisings may occur, or as in the case of Egypt, the uprising may topple the government without the use of arms.  Not that the Egyptians were starving, but they were forcibly kept from sharing in the profits for so long that they were going to topple that government no matter what.

      The same thing is happening in many other countries right now where masses have been kept poor while a few become super-wealthy.  We here in the USA are on this same road ourselves, just a little further back.

      As an aside about the over-population thing, I personally have one daughter, and that is my only child.  I will not contribute any further to what is clearly a totally unsustainable trend.  I think that we should strongly discourage large families, not as the Chinese have done with forced abortions and prison, but in a uniquely American way.  We need tax penalties for any family with more than one child.  After all, these big families are the ones using all the government services up, and taking up all the space in schools, and all those school lunches too.  They use more, so they should pay more.  Simple.

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    73. Anonymous says:

      Comments…..

      Dad, its gonna take some time to get your farm up and running.  Don’t expect you’re gonna go there and just throw some seeds in the ground and be off and running.  All due respect and just sayin’ :)

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    74. scott says:

      Bought lots of seeds but now have to wait until the weather modification planes take a break to plant them.

      http://www.heirloomacresseeds.com/default.asp
      http://www.anniesheirloomseeds.com/

      With the weather modification taking place our growing season has changed which means either we grow in doors or in a green house soon. On another note freeze dried food is over rated, buy dehydrated and add some salt and pepper when you cook which will improve the taste. Start canning stuff to like ground beef, pork, turkey etc. which is a hell of a lot cheaper and tastes better!

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    75. yourdaddy says:

      It is clear that once a human being’s worth is calculated against a subjective, economic scorecard of debits & credits, conclusions like JJ & Johnny V’s can quickly be ascertained. 

      The soul moves from, “Intrinsically valuable” and “Made in God’s image” to an “economic burden that should be tax penaltied into oblivion.”  Like a black hole, constantly sucking energy & resources from the universe, a newborn becomes.  However, if a newborn can adequately offset his/her economic drain on society by producing an economic output that arguably replaces their consumption, then the world is ok. 

      Once this leap in logic has been made across society, (and God help us all if it ever does), each soul will then have to defend its existence as we’re all headed to a point that will see our production/consumption ratios invert…or worse.  That’s the crack in the door for the Euthanasia movement. 

      Sticking to words of the Author & Creator of all life:

      Psalm 127:3-5  “Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord,
      the fruit of the womb a reward.  4 Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one’s youth.  5 Blessed is the man
      who fills his quiver with them!”
       

      Johnny V- if you and your wife elect to stop having children that is truly y’alls personal business.  However, don’t do it in the name “of the greater good.”  Another Johnny V jr. on the planet won’t exascerbate an unsustainable trend…It will just mean you now have 2 arrows in your quiver, and according to God, that’s a good thing.

      In Truth
      -Dad

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    76. REB says:

       yourdaddy….good points!…. JV…..Question,how can using the govt and its immoral “tax-code” to punish people and  effect a change in their behavior( that some see fit) be justified and reconciled with freedom and personal liberty?

      I dont want the govt(any govt) given the power to destroy people , a wise man once said that the power to tax is the power to destroy…another said that govt is at best a nessesary evil…put the two together and you have something akin to Death itself, NOT something that nurtures and defends life.
      How can anyone say they love freedom and then adavance the idea of govt  being the answer to anything,( what am I missing here)and how is taxing to punish “a uniquely American way” of doing anything?
       There arnt many nations who dont use taxation in a distructive manner(if any) and that suggestion would certainly qualify as distructive. We cant say govt is the primary reason for our mess and then advocate using its power to acheive a pet objective,thats not showing any  committment to the principle of liberty and self determination.
      Some of you might want to take a peek behind the curtain and see who is perpetrating and advocating some of these psydo-scientific theories like overpopulation or man-made global warming and ask what their agenda actually is….I seriously doubt it has anything to do with increasing the freedom and independence of mankind…..! Gods world and system of operation are not broken,man has just messed it up by not following the manual and trying to write his own,most of the time that is man in the form of govt trying to dictate the solutions it sees fit,sorry but liberty is too precious to let govt have a say in it!
      And before I end this I will say that Yes there are some real problems in our world,most are caused by govts or groups with agendas interfering with people and their freedom to do for themselves…fix that problem and you are well on your way to fixing the others.Thanks!

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    77. yourdaddy says:

      Anon-said:
      Dad, its gonna take some time to get your farm up and running.  Don’t expect you’re gonna go there and just throw some seeds in the ground and be off and running.  All due respect and just sayin’

      And you’re understating it at that!!  Been out there a few times, and it is overwhelming.  Property has 55 acres, and came with a JD750 tractor which allows me to purchase a 50″ reverse action tiller which will arrive this weekend.  Already have contracts to bale on the half with a local, but the knowledge & experience curve are virtually vertical….

      Intend to till a 1/2 acre garden and use it as my “lab.”  Trial & error has always been my method of choice when learning, so here’s to hoping for more trial and less error.  The good thing is that most everyone that lives in this small, rural community bend-over-backwards to help anyone that approaches them with their hat in their hand.  I’ve found that the small town attitudes are far superior then those in the city. 

      Anon- are you a farmer?  If so, are you willing to help with advice, or we’re you just schucking my corn?  (ok, that was bad.  Need to work on my farming humor as well.  Is there a book for that too?)
      -Dad
       

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    78. Jonny V says:

      Well, I’ve gotta admit, I came up with the tax-code idea just by letting my imagination run wild.  If you take any idea to the extreme, you’ll end up with a wacky answer.  Using our (admittedly) immoral tax code is just as extreme as being one of those reality TV families with 18 kids, or the Octo-mom.

      I think that the “be fruitful and multiply” passage in the Bible wasn’t meant to be taken to the extreme.  We can see the effects of taking it to the extreme when we look at situations like Africa, or Colorado City Utah.  If there is a God, I think he wants us to have reasonable size families, live within our means, and not forget what it is that makes everything possible (Earth’s natural resources).

      Just because we CAN consume everything in sight, doesn’t mean we SHOULD consume everything in sight.  I’m done trying to get Dad’s goat now!  (farm humor) hehehehe……

      Dad, I applaud your efforts.  There are lots of farms all around me, and the ones who use chemical fertilizers and insecticides seem to be the ones where the people are the most unhappy and the farm is doing bad.  Chemicals and Monsanto go hand in hand.  Learn all you can about composting and fertilizing with natural methods.  You’ll feel better, and the food will be better too.

      Book knowledge only goes so far, the rest you have to actually learn.

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    79. REB says:

      JV….fair enough,I was just having trouble reconciling the two ideas.
      A few related thoughts….
      I dont know much about Colorado City Utah,but using the continent of Africa as an example a fair argument could be made for what I stated earlier about govt and groups with agendas being responsible for much of the problem.
       Africa has abundant land and natural resources but they also have had the so called “Green Revolutions I&II”(read meddling outside interests proclaiming to help, who leave a bigger mess than they found) the first one did little to help them and the second ; now being foisted on them by Bill & Millenda Gates/Rockyfeller and others pushing chemical farming methods and GMO crops is killing them…what alot of people dont realize (or want to admit)is that these “Benevelant Benefactors” are pushing an agenda ….. that agenda is connected to NWO population controls using food as the main tool….the people are being pushed off the land they have farmed and lived on for generations by large multinational  companies who group all the smallholdings together into massive estates and then monocrop them to whatever commodity  that demands high returns such as soybeans ..or palm oil plantations.
      It seems that everything is now considered a commodity and is traded globally,this tends to drive scarcity(even if the item isnt scarce) and to inflate prices out of reach of many people.
      The people who lost their land/food then have to find employment on the estate itself or migrate to the city in search of scarce jobs to live on,they can no longer feed themselves and many do starve…..because the mega plantations sell the crops they raise into the international market …. little if any benefit accrues to the former smallholders, a few get rich at the expense of the poor in a most unfair manner.
      The world bank, the UN and mega corporations like monsanto… cargill… ADM and even some nations like china and saudi arabia(and others) are driving this trend either to secure food stuffs for their peoples or to control the production(methods,imputs) for their profits and their power.This is one of the reasons we see the plague of hunger,not because there is no food but because greed/power has taken over the food supply,these peasant farmers used to farm naturally and they fed themselves and their families and even perhaps had some to sell locally at market,now they find themselves landless and unable to feed themselves at all,they then show up amoungst the hungry masses,through no fault of their own.
      Then those powers that caused the problem point to overpopulation as the culprit and push their answer on us… all the while conveniently forgetting to mention they caused the problem…typical!
      Of course there are other factors involved in certain localities,such as war or drought which are largely out of most peoples control, but then again can be caused or made worse by those govts and groups with agendas,here in America look at the farms in California forced to shut down due to enviromentalists (groups with agendas)using a small fish as the”agenda” item to shut off the water taking untold amounts of food out of the equation,look at monsanto and the govt working hand in glove to force GMO crops onto farmers …using crosspollination and the patenting of Gods creation to sue farmers off the land,forcing the eventual extinction of thousands of non-GMO species and the farmers who raise them….pushing the application of pesticides and herbicides as well as chemical fertilizers at the expense of the old tried and true methods…these are just a few of what causes hunger and starvation that govts and groups with agendas cause on a daily basis, again…if we fix that problem we are well on our way to fixing the other….thanks! 

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    80. Tina says:

      Johnny V  Comments…..”I think that the “be fruitful and multiply” passage in the Bible wasn’t meant to be taken to the extreme.  We can see the effects of taking it to the extreme when we look at situations like Africa, or Colorado City Utah.  If there is a God, I think he wants us to have reasonable size families, live within our means, and not forget what it is that makes everything possible (Earth’s natural resources).

      What the Lord wants you to do is TRUST him for all your needs. Trust in the fact that no matter how many children he “gives” you (meaning they are a gift and should be treated as such) that he will provide for you and your family if you trust him.  

      GO BIG DADDY!!!!
      You are my new Hero

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    81. Anonymous says:

      Comments…..
      JAY
      Dad, I’m the person who posted “anon” above about farming.  We have been trying to grow stuff for about fourteen years here, it’s getting harder and harder with the climate change.  Spent years amending the soil (dumptrucks full of turkey litter and sawdust, all the leaves people put out on their curb, etc. but the last three years it has been so hot here in Central Texas the plants suffer badly….who knows what the future will bring….

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    82. Where are the voices with expertise on the topic of human population dynamics and human overpopulation?  Top rank experts with views of matters so vital to future human wellbeing and environmental health as human overpopulation of the Earth  are invited to speak out loudly and clearly.  A massive, culturally-driven (and -biased) supression of science appears to be occurring.  Such behavior could be a colossal error: an incredible failure of nerve resulting from a preposterous embrace of political convenience, economic expedience and greed mongering, an unconscionable loss of political will, and the absence of moral courage and intellectual honesty.
      Sincerely,
      Steve

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    83. Jonny V says:

      Tina, I get the trust concept, but I would have to say that there’s got to be a difference in getting God’s help when you’ve shown restraint yourself, versus trying to get God’s help when you’ve shown no restraint and spewed out 8 or 10 or 65 (if you’re from Colorado City) kids.

      Asking God’s help to clean up such a huge mess would probably come across as insulting.  People should make sure that they can take care of their kids before turning themselves into human zerox machines.  Blindly throwing up your hands (I’m not saying you’re doing this) and saying “Well, God has blessed us again!” is intellectually dishonest at best, and willfully ignorant at worst.  It’s the exact same thing the Octo-mom did.  A statement like that is not deserving of any pity, or help.  It might get you your own reality TV show however.

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    84. Tina says:

      I am not saying “trust in the Lord that may send Food Stamps your way to provide for all the children that you have  He provides help to those willing to help themselves.

      My husband and I raised 3 (gifts) totally on our own. Never a handout here. At this point they are all grown, out of college and productive members of our wonderful society. I’m not saying that everyone couldn’t use a little help every now and then but to raise your family on (the system) someone else’s dime is wrong in my mind as well.  

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    85. yourdaddy says:

      Johnny V-
      Over your last few posts, it appears you have a bit of an axe to grind against families with 8 or 10 kids.  Not sure where you live, or what TV shows you watch, but speaking for myself, I don’t personally know any family that has that many kids.  Sure, if you’re watching Jerry Springer or Maury you’ll probably find some crazy stuff, but c’mon…isn’t what you’ve presented as evidence to your argument, “intellectually dishonest?” 

      The average American family size (according to the 2000 Census:  http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFFacts) is 3.14…This INCLUDES the parents.  Thus, on average, the American home only has 1.14 kids running around in it.  That number has since decreased to 2.6 BTW…

      And if formal data is too dry to swallow, just take a straw poll, or look around your community.  I can’t tell you how many families have just a single child…and this in a well-to-do Houston community. 

      Personally speaking, my faith (Catholic Christian) doesn’t endorse birth control practices, yet after 13 years of marriage, I only have 4 children…(Ok, I’ve left the door wide-open for y’all to tell me that I need to work less, or turn the TV off more.  :) )  But in all seriousness, The Church promotes NFP: Natural Family Planning and approaches this topic under the premise that God is the creator of all life, and in a partnership with him, via a sacramental marriage covenent, you “plan” to build your family based on whatever physical, emotional, economic situation you are in.  The Church isn’t unreasonable here, and I believe if more couples (and especially women) practiced NFP, they would experience a much more fullfilling marriage.  My wife & I haven’t mutilated (i.e. “sterilized”) ourselves, she has never taken nor have I ever used contraception and in 156 months of marriage, NFP has gone EXACTLY as we “planned” 154 times…(And the 2 times it didn’t go as planned were 2 months we were TRYING to get pregnant). 

      The reason I share that with you is that Tina is exactly right.  He gave sex as a gift to all married couples, and if you prefer to engage in that activity every night of every month, there is a high probability you’ll be on Oprah…But if you are not ready for children, and are willing to sacrifice for a short time from it every month (During Phase 2), and replace that with activities more in line with “courting” you’ll, see your marriage grow deeper and more meaningful, while temporarily avoiding pregnancy without ever invading your bodies with medical instruments or presecription drugs. 

      THIS is the plan God put in place for sex, marriage & procreation.  Clearly, man (in all of our folly and pride) elected to toss this aside and corrupt a perfect thing.   Before you dig in and start developing your counter argument to my statement above, you’ll need to explain how Man’s plan is better then God’s plan…And just to give you something to chew on…Here’s the “fruit” of Man’s plan:

      1)  6th grade girls giving oral sex to boys on the bus to & from school,  as well as engaging in “Rainbow Parties”
      2)  Teen pregnancy rates not only off-the-charts, but now we have to define “Teen” to include kids younger then 14 years old.
      3)  The now trendy & chic, “Friends with Benefits” movement
      4)  Casual sex between non-married couples
      5)  Rampant STD’s
      6)  Objectification of women
      7)  Pornography industry (>$13 Billion/year)…This link will make you sick… http://www.freedomyou.com/addiction/Internet_Pornography.htm
      8)  Infidelity-divorce-infidelity-divorce cycle
      9)  53 Million Abortions in the USA alone since Roe v Wade
      http://www.nrlc.org/Factsheets/FS03_AbortionInTheUS.pdf
      10) 42 Million Abortions annual throughout the world
      http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

      So…With all of that said, we have Yourdaddy vs Johnny V/JJ on polar opposite sides of the debate regarding what is the root cause of our world’s plight.  On one side, JVJJ infers that our biggest problem is “Overpopulation” and that God is nothing more then an absentee landlord sitting idly by and sometimes being referenced as the scapegoat who “blesses us” with children.  And on the other side, you have me stating that God gave us all the perfect plan, and we have mucked it up.  Through satan’s web of lies, we’ve traded something beautiful for something that is dirty, tarnished and ruionous.

      Feel free to pick whichever side of this argument you choose.  But regardless of which side you choose, do you really believe that by reducing the population we will solve our core issue?  And make no mistake about it, the core issue is “moral bankruptcy.”  Unless & until we turn our focus back to God and his ways, we will simply have more of the same.  If JVJJ get their way, and could magically reduce the population by a few billion folks, we’d still have more of the same, just a few billion less people doing it.. (no pun intended of course).

      Problem with my solution, “Getting back to God” is you cannot regulate that.  It must come from a genuine desire of free will.  Since it appears we as a society are dead set against moving back towards him, he (through his infinite wisdom, mercy & justice) will “change our landscape forevermore” as an incentive to re-hone our focus.

      Thus, the pending SHTF that we’re all talking about isn’t necessarily a bad thing.  In fact, when the rug is pulled out from underneath us, and the false idols we’ve set up as guideposts come crashing down, we’ll have only one way to turn…BACK to HIM.  Of course, even then, you’ll still have the gift of free will, but there won’t be many attractive options left to tempt you away.  And that’s a good thing.

      Keeping it real.
      -Dad

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    86. Jonny V says:

      WOW DAD!,,, You were bringin the wood that time.  The only thing I might say is that America has never really been a “moral” nation.  We’ve created a false history for ourselves via the old-time westerns (good guy white hat, bad guy black hat), and the false morality of the first half of the 20th century.  I won’t bother working the slavery angle here, we all know about the 1600′s up until 1865…..  You could very well make the argument that the country should “turn to God”, but not so much “turn back to God”.

      The real “old west” involved alcoholism, crime, and murder on a scale that modern residents would find hard to believe.  Prostitution was legal everywhere, and young girls could be purchased and forced into prostitution (legally).  Hard-line racism and lynchings got their start and would continue until the 1960′s.  Shooting native American women and children (including infants) was a highly respected way to pass the time.  Only by providing what Americans truly demand (gambling) are the natives able to try and pull even from this. 

      The 1920′s were hardly what anyone would call “moral”, same with the depression years and families breaking up, moving, giving kids away, the KKK at 3 million plus members, and so forth.  Infidelity was off the charts in the 1940′s with most of the men gone away.  The 1950′s were “moral” if you were a white male.  If you were a female, or any type of minority, then the 1950′s sucked ass.  The 1960′s broke out of the mold with more rights for everyone, but along with that came lots of drugs and drug problems, and a heretofore never seen disrespect for authority.  70′s, more of the same, but let’s face it, Nixon wasn’t worth respecting.  Even the Republicans voted to impeach in what was probably the last truly bi-partisan effort in Congress.  The 1980′s were a lie yet to be paid for by our grandchildren.  The 90′s and 00′s are just piling more and more “me-first” consumerism and debt on top of the colossal mountain started in the 80′s.

      It was good to see you lay out your argument in detail and how the Church recommends that people deal with the need to control family size and maintain healthy relationships.  I can definitely respect that.  When I talk about people having masses of kids, these are obviously not following what you laid out, and are therefore deserving of the criticism.  No one who bothers to look up Colorado City will agree with what they’re doing, and many of those people DO have 20+ children, for precisely the reason of “throwing their hands up….”, and they ARE on welfare.

      I think that we do see the same things, and might even mostly agree, but the communication of it seems to be letting me down.  Tina ended up saying much the same thing on her last post.

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    87. Federalist45 says:

      I sometimes wonder if the whole preparation thing isn’t something like Scientology or any other cult.  Seems to me alot of people are making a hell of alot of money off of all of this.  Once you believe, you are faithful to the core beliefs to a fault.  You keep stocking up–”Oh, I had better get that quick clot and a couple of handcrank radios”–and spending, spending, spending on prep gear and supplies.  And you convince yourself that what you are doing is the only thing that makes sense.  Meanwhile, 300,000,000 other Americans are going about their daily lives, interacting in their communities, doing their jobs, taking kids to little league games. . .  are they all turning into zombies?

      I can keep food on the table in the present.  It would really, really hard to pay Mountain House or any other manufacturer 5 times the money I pay for regular food for its prep food.  Heck, who knows if that isn’t all just a scam anyway?

      Have you seen where the big wigs who own and run Mountain House live?  Do they have regular homes?  Regular neighborhoods?  Or are they all out on 60 acre organic farms, blockhouse buildings with gun openings, concertina wire, and max temperature controlled storage facilities?

      I figure that the bottom line is this–those who were smart and well funded and were able to prepare will probably end up being those with the largest targets on their backs or roofs.  Right?

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    88. yourdaddy says:

      Johnny V-
      You’re definitely someone I would love to visit with in person!  While we don’t see eye to eye on religion, I suspect your candor & passion would be a welcome change, and entertaining to boot.  Heck, throw in a Durango Kidd, an Overtheedge, a Clark bar, with some SmokinOkie and maybe a Mac for good measure…who knows what might break out…Doubtful any of us would complain about the minimal time we’d get with the microphone.

      Based on your synopsis of American history & culture, I must’ve grown up in La-La land USA.  Either way, if it’s “Turn back to God” or simply just “Turn to God for the 1st time” it was good to hear you write it and I’ll take it.  :)

      And not to let a good pun go to waste, I wasn’t sure where you were going with the opening line of your last post.  But either way, appreciate the props.  :)
      -Dad

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    89. Jonny V says:

      Dad, I better get on here ahead of the “you hate America” crowd.  I DON’T HATE AMERICA!.  I’m just not going to forget every crappy thing we’ve ever done and candy coat the rest, unlike the Fox News set.

      I do agree that the personalities and desires of almost all Americans must change.  We consume between 25% and 1/3rd of the planets resources, because our New American Lifestyle (the last 50 years) is based on greed.  We have to have everything.  That’s why people get trampled in the doorway of Walmart.  This is the immorality that you’re talking about.

      Love to have a meeting, although I suspect that we all live in different time zones.  I’ll bring the hot wings and the whiskey!

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    90. GoneWithTheWind says:

      Flour tortilla 
       

      3 ½ cups flour
      1 tsp salt
      ½ tsp baking powder
      3.5 oz vegetable shortening (3.5 oz = 7 tbs)
      1 cup very hot water
       
      Knead the mixture for three minutes.  Let dough sit covered for 15 minutes.  Separate into small 1 ½ ounce portions.  Form into small balls.  Cover them with a cloth.  Press dough out with a roller into an flat oval shape.   Turn 45 degrees and roll some more.  Turn 45 degrees once again and roll until round.  Place on a very hot pan or griddle.  When air bubbles form flip to the other side.  It will fill up with air so push gently with spatula so all parts get heated.  Flip again to cook first side some more. 
      You can cook these on a grill, a hot stone, a sheet of iron or even on the coals of a woodfire if you don’t have a frying pan.

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    91. Jonny V says:

      Hey Thanks GWTW!  can you use butter instead of shortening?  or lard?  I don’t use shortening.

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    92. SmokinOkie says:

      Jonny V: I’d have to agree with most of your assessment of US history, but just to set the record straight- congress never voted on any impeachment articles against Nixon. He left before that happened. But it was the Republicans (Nixon’x own party) that told him to resign or face impeachment. Unlike the Dems and the new lower standard in place by the time of Clinton. Where the dem party said to the republicans in congress and the American people in effect “you dont have the numerical power in the senate to convict, so go ahead and impeach. He’s our guy and we’re leaving him in office.” Nixon’s main crimes were in lying and trying to cover up for his buddies who had comitted crimes in order to help him get re-elected. There’s no evidence Nixon knew about the watergate burglary beforehand. He was obviously guilty in the ensuing cover-up. And, no, I aint trying to defend Nixon on anything. He left in disgrace and he should have. Clinton on the other hand did all of his lying and other crimes to cover HIS OWN actions. And his party stood by him in spite of his obvious guilt and moral bankruptcy. Just pointing out the difference in 1970s republicans and 00s democrats. Not that either party in either era was much good. I’ll take an independant, non-party or libertarian any day over the two pitiful choices we have now. Just sayin’…Oh, and the early american west wasn’t quite as lawless as you might think, but we’ll save that discussion for another time. Which reminds me…how did we get to this debate when we started with a storage food shortage. I musta gor carried away!

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    93. GoneWithTheWind says:

      I believe lard is the preferred oil/fat for tortilla but I have not tried it myself.  I do have a fallback theory for things like this: My cooking tends to be a learning experience where even the failures are edible.  So my advice is to try new things and see what works for you. 
      I also like to think that a bit of butter makes the batter better. 

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    94. Jonny V says:

      SmokinOkie, I agree with your post.  We got to this point in the conversation by working religion into the food shortage mix, and then making the short jump from religion to politics.  I don’t believe that any politicians ever were all that noble.  The founding fathers consumed huge amounts of alcohol while forming the nation, frequented whore-houses too.  It just always feels like our currently elected politicians are the ones setting the new low…

      GWTW;  I’d never heard the instructions for making tortillas before.  I cook a lot, and think maybe I’ll try this out in the next few days.  Should be able to substitute lard straight across for shortening.  Thanks again.

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    95. SmokinOkie says:

      That shoulda been “70s republicans and 90s democrats…” It doesn’t really matter though. they’re all weasels. Always have been.

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    96. I’d sure love to sit in on that meeting with you all if you’d have me. Heck I am hearing some prophet made a map of America after SHTF and the safest place to be, supposedly due to divine protection, is SW MO adn the AR border in the Ozark MTNS……………not far from TX     ;-)
      So according to your rendition of American history JV, this great book I have and read called “America’s Providential History” by Beliles and McDowell is just a bunch of crap?? Dadgummit, I really liked that book too

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    97. We are simultaneously witnessing the violent supression of Democracy as well as the pernicious supression of Science.
       
      To look at what has been happening in the past 65 years, a time when pharoahs and tyrants were supported and democracy was neglected, all for short-term profits, and when scientific research of human population dynamics/human overpopulation was everywhere eschewed, all for sake of providing support to greedmongering self-proclaimed masters of the universe, is to have overseen the most profound failure of nerve, intellectual honesty, moral courage and corrective action in human history, I suppose.
       
      Both democracy and science have been vanquished by arrogance, avarice and authoritarianism in our time.

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    98. Jonny V says:

      BJ, it’s not that the book is wrong, it’s that lots of stuff gets left out when you have to condense everything down to fit in the book.  The founders were people more than willing to tell authority to “fuck off” and personally, I find that admirable.  The fact that they drank a lot and didn’t have any particular respect for religion doesn’t bother me in the least.  The point of my comments was that (for instance) Indians might have a whole different perspective on “manifest destiny” than us white folks do.

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    99. Dave says:

      Several mentioned the FEMA camps.  This article mentions a recent RFQ from FEMA for a 10 day supply of dehydrated food for 14 million people.  Sounds like they are getting prepared for something.  Another source of good non-gmo dehydrated food is here.  Check out their free samples.

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